A fourth Silmaril?

[Kirinki54]

A What If:

The three Silmarils made by Feanor from the light of the two Trees could be said to finally represent three of the elements: Earth, water, fire.
Could there not have been a fourth, ending up representing air? That would of course correspond to the division made by the old Greeks, and I think that parallel was never really Tolkiens intention anyway.
But what if there had been a fourth? Would two each of them be made of the light from a certain Tree?

It´s late here...

[Ñólendil]

You've got the Silmarilli a bit confused. The fates of the earth, sea and air of Arda were bound inside them. Not earth, water and fire. The 'earth' part might go for fire too, as the Silmaril was cast into a fiery chasm, I seem to remember.

You remember the Silmaril Beren cut from Morgoth's crown ended up in the heavens with Earendil, that was the 'Silmaril of air' as one may say (which is a bit misleading).

[Kirinki54]

You´re right Inoldonil, I missed that one.

But what about the rest of the speculation?

[Elessar_elfstone]

Maybe what I am going to say maybe corny

But reading these post made me think what if a fourth simaril can be forged again by one of Fëanor's sons and ued against Morgorth?

[Wayfarer]

It would be impossible, seeing as none of his sones were even half as talented, not to mention the fact that the two trees were slightly dead.

And when were the silmirils used as a weapon? It seems to mee they fell rather under the catogory of Bright Shiny Things that Everyone Wants To Have.

Unlike the ring, or the Sacred Toothbrush of *ahem* Ubermonkey.

[Ñólendil]

It was my toothbrush and you know it!!!!!

[Kirinki54]

I don´t know however Tolkien might have reasoned when he invented the Silmarils.
But now that I think about it, a Silmaril representing Fire is not very likely.
Would not that be exclusively Eru´s domain; the fire of creation filling all of Ea and all beings?
So had there been a fourth Silmaril, what would that represent?
I´ll forget about it!

There were two Trees, one older Telperion and one younger Laurelin. (BTW was there a gender aspect to their difference?) But were there any difference in the actual light of the Trees? The light captured in the Silmarils seems to be one and the same?

[galadriel]

Telperion had a silver light; Laurelin's light was golden. (I hope I didn't get that backwards.) They each produced one last leaf, which went into the moon and sun respectively. The Silmarils, if I remember correctly, had both kinds of light inside of them.

[Ñólendil]

You do, though the Sun and Moon were not in origin leaves. Laurelin produced a fruit of gold, and Telperion a flower of silver. I think the 'fieriness' of the Sun had a lot to do with Arien too. She clothed herself as a naked flame before bearing the flower up into the air.

[Ace]

Did the Silmarils have any powers. I remember that they were needed to restore light to the world, because some things when done once, cannot be done again. And Feanor doesn't want to give them up. Other than the light, what powers did they have??

"If the choice be mine, I say, we march!"

[Wayfarer]

basically, they just looked really pretty.

[Ñólendil]

Some quotes from Tolkien best explains them:It [The Silmarillion] receives its name because the events are all threaded upon the fate and significance of the Silmarilli ('radiance of pure light') or Primeval Jewels. By the making of gems the sub-creative function of the Elves is chiefly symbolized, but the Silmarilli were more than just beautiful things as such. There was Light. There was the Light of Valinor made visible in the Two Trees of Silver and Gold.*

*As far as all this has symbolical or allegorical significance, Light is such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, that it can hardly be analysed. The Light of Valinor (derived from light before any fall) is the light of art undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) and imaginatively (or subcreatively) and says that they are good' -- as beautiful. The Light of Sun (or Moon) is derived from the Trees only after they were sullied by Evil.

[Kirinki54]

I have wondered if not the TWO trees is meant to emphasize bipolarity, and in this also life force, sexuality, pro-creation, and so on?
And thought from Tolkien on this?

[Ñólendil]

Not that I can find in the Letters. The Index only contains three references to 'the Two Trees'. One is what I have quoted above, one is a passing reference to the fact that the Silmarilli held their unsullied Light, and one is a denial that Arathorn had any connexion with them (one reader wondered whether 'Arathorn' means 'Two-Trees-King').

I think Two Trees just arose from the need of an origin for a Sun and Moon, though I haven't studied the beginnings of them in his myths.

[The White Rider]

Using UT and LotR, I've found the forth simaril.
The one which went into the sea represents WATER.
The one which fell into the cracks represents EARTH.
The one which Earendil took into the heavens representts AIR.

There was a jewel created to trap the light of the Sun in the Leaves. It was created by the Gondolin jewel smith Celembrindor. It was given to Idril and then to Earendil. Olorin (Gandalf) took the jewel back to Middle-Earth to Galadriel's keeping until a King called Elessar (Aragorn) retuned for the thrown. The jewel is the Elessar, and it represents the FIRE of Arien, Maia of the Sun.:eek:

[markedel]

The Elessar is not a simaril, because it doesn't contain the light of the two trees, at least as far as I can see. It's just a cool jewel.

[Kirinki54]

My old thread resurfacing... :)

But I have to agree: the Elessar was definitely no Silmaril.

[Nibs]

Hmm... odd speculation... I like to think that Feanor would remember making four, however... (Is that what the basis of a Silmaril is in this thread?) Apparently Feanor alone had the skill to make such things, and would have known there were four. Unless he sleepwalked into his... his... place that he refined jewels (whatever that is) and made another one in his sleep. It's possible.

[The White Rider]

Sorry about that theory... as I should have said, it was only a far-fetched idea.

This thread also applies to the Elven Rings of Power...
Narya - Fire
Nenya - Water
Vilya - Air

So both Silmarils and Elven Rings leave Earth unrepresented(Editing my previous statement that "The Silmaril that fell into the Earth represented Earth" to "The Silmaril that fell into the Firery chasm represented Fire")

So, why don't the Elves see Earth as an Element :confused:

[Ñólendil]

So both Silmarils and Elven Rings leave Earth unrepresented

As I said in my first post on this thread, Mandos said the fates of earth, sea and air were locked within the Silmarilli, not fire, sea and air. I don't think either the Three Rings or the Three Jewels had much to do with the Greek idea of four elements (+ Void). As far as the Silmarilli go, they were merely to end up in those three different places: one in the heavens above (via Eärendil), one in the bowels of the earth (Maedros) and one in the depths of the Sea (Maelor). The Rings are another matter. I think the "fire", "air" and "water" are metaphorical. The Ring of Fire rekindled the hearts of Men and Elves with hope and the Ring of Water increased Galadriel's desire for the Sea. There's probably more to Nenya, and we don't know much about Vilya. I think Tolkien was drawn taking some basic "elements" and applying them as far as the Rings goes. For the Silmarilli I guess he just wanted three different kinds of places where jewels might be lossed forever.