Nature of the Music

[Kirinki54]

The debates on creation in other debates (eg The Two Trees) got me thinking.

What was the nature of the Music? How much did it determine the actions of any being of Ea or Arda? Was creation possible for anyone, or did they just act (unknowingly) from plans layed down in the Music? If so, was there any free will at all?

I am sure the good Prof. commented on this somewhere in HoME or The Letters. Or perhaps people have opinions anyhow. Shoot!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
The debates on creation in other debates (eg The Two Trees) got me thinking.

What was the nature of the Music? How much did it determine the actions of any being of Ea or Arda? Was creation possible for anyone, or did they just act (unknowingly) from plans layed down in the Music? If so, was there any free will at all?

I am sure the good Prof. commented on this somewhere in HoME or The Letters. Or perhaps people have opinions anyhow. Shoot! This is what the Guide to Middle-earth says: Ainulindale- The great music sung by the Ainur, the development of the three themes of Iluvatar, and thus an expression of the devine order. The first theme, created by Iluvatar but developed by the Ainur, presented the form of Ea. This theme was marred by the discord of Melkor, but the second theme, probably indicating the shaping of Arda, defeated this discord and incorporated it into itself. The third theme, in which the Ainur did not participate, dealt with the creation of the Children of Iluvatar and their history up to the Dominion of Men.

[Kirinki54]

Thanks, Sister Golden Hair! That clearly explains the characteristics of the various themes.

But still, just how much room was there for the individual actors, be they Yavanna or Turin, to choose what to create, how to act, what to say, etc? If all beings of Eru´s creation were just repeating or acting out the themes layed down in the Music, it seems to me as a rather dull and dead world.

But then of course there could be a difference in the options open to the different classes of beings. Perhaps the angelic Valar could in some senses be more restricted than even Men, Orcs or animals of ME? Perhaps the Children of Iluvatar had more of free will?

I don´t know. More opinions, please!

[Wayfarer]

"Perhaps the Children of Iluvatar had more of free will?"

Exactly.

The Ainur were constrained in thier actions by the music. Being angelic, they were set upon their course by the part they played in the music.

Elves are also influenced a great deal. They are generally all good, and with a few exception followed the will of illuvatar.

Men, however, have the ability to choose thier path in life. ( but As a result of this, they have only a short time in arda.)

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The Ainur were constrained in thier actions by the music. Being angelic, they were set upon their course by the part they played in the music.

Still they sometimes acted on their own, like Aule creating (yes or no?) the Dwarves.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Elves are also influenced a great deal. They are generally all good, and with a few exception followed the will of illuvatar.


Well, some of the Elves had direct contacts with the Valar but I think none with Eru Iluvatar. So it can be discussed if Elves knowingly adhered to any great plan of Eru.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Men, however, have the ability to choose thier path in life. ( but As a result of this, they have only a short time in arda.)

Interesting views, that a) Men can choose their path freely, and b) the Gift of Men should be given because they have this greater freedom of will.

I think at least there are many exceptions where the actions and fate of Men were very determined by the powers.
And as for the Gift, are any reason ever given in any text? It seems like a mystery only known to Eru, just as what happens after death.
If not, we are free to speculate...

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Still they sometimes acted on their own, like Aule creating (yes or no?) the Dwarves.


I'm not saying that everything they did was pre determined. But the ainur are defitinively good or bad. Even aule, when he realized he'd acted without illuvatar's consent, immediatly wanted to destroy his work (which, in my estimation, is why they were given life).

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Well, some of the Elves had direct contacts with the Valar but I think none with Eru Iluvatar. So it can be discussed if Elves knowingly adhered to any great plan of Eru.

Oh, no. What I meant was that elves have a natural proclivity to follow illuvatar's will. They are naturally. In fact, the only examples of elves behaving otherwise were feanor and maeglin, both of whom did so under the direct influence of Morgoth.

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Interesting views, that a) Men can choose their path freely, and b) the Gift of Men should be given because they have this greater freedom of will.

Actually, It says so in the silmarrilion.

"But to men he gave a new gift, that they should be able to live beyond the music of the ainur that is fate to all other things. But it is one with this that they are only a short time in this world, and then pass on, and the valar know not where."

SIC?

Originally posted by Kirinki54
I think at least there are many exceptions where the actions and fate of Men were very determined by the powers.
And as for the Gift, are any reason ever given in any text? It seems like a mystery only known to Eru, just as what happens after death.
If not, we are free to speculate...

I really can't think of any. Some men chose to side with morgoth, and some chose to side with the powers, but neither side was successful in forcing them into service. Elswise why couldn't morgoth have overpowered hurin and brainwashed him into service? After all, hurin was the greatest warrior ever.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I'm not saying that everything they did was pre determined. But the ainur are defitinively good or bad. Even aule, when he realized he'd acted without illuvatar's consent, immediatly wanted to destroy his work (which, in my estimation, is why they were given life).

Yes, I would agree that the Ainur took their sides pretty quickly after Morgoth´s rebellion. Whether they are totally and definitely good or bad I think can be discussed. It is said even Sauron repented after Morgoth´s downfall, but that he was overcome by his desire to put things right and in order, and thus became dominated again by a will to rule.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Oh, no. What I meant was that elves have a natural proclivity to follow illuvatar's will. They are naturally. In fact, the only examples of elves behaving otherwise were feanor and maeglin, both of whom did so under the direct influence of Morgoth.


I would rather put it that their ways to deal with existence was more in tune with Valar. (Probably because of their virtual immortality?) That would also bring them in line with Eru, of course.

But there are many many examples of Elves behaving foolish, selfish, cruel, devious, etc. From Celegorm trying to ride down Beren to the Third age Elven-lords concealing the true facts about Rings.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Actually, It says so in the silmarrilion.

"But to men he gave a new gift, that they should be able to live beyond the music of the ainur that is fate to all other things. But it is one with this that they are only a short time in this world, and then pass on, and the valar know not where."


I do not precisely remember that quote, but I am glad! That was a missing piece for me.


Originally posted by Wayfarer
I really can't think of any. Some men chose to side with morgoth, and some chose to side with the powers, but neither side was successful in forcing them into service. Elswise why couldn't morgoth have overpowered hurin and brainwashed him into service? After all, hurin was the greatest warrior ever.

What I meant with exceptions was that sometimes the Valar acted through Men. Like Ulmo acting and speaking through Tuor. Or someone (who was it?) laying words in the mouth of Beren when speaking before Thingol. So the Valar (or Eru) still interfered to some extent.

Hurin the greatest warrior? Well, perhaps. I have no favourite and Men were in those days often equal to Elves. My favourite fight is Fingolfin attacking Morgoth, although he lost.