just a dumb question....

[ArwenEvenstar]

In the sil Glorfindel died while fighting a balrog and later in LOTR he rescues Frodo & Co. I know he came back to life, but how exactly. I don't own a copy of the Sil and I don't remember which of the Valar were in charge of the Halls of the dead..... So could one of the smarter people please explain how that happened to a STUPID
person.

[Captain Stern]

When elves die their spirit/'fea' enter The Halls of Mandos ( The keeper of the Halls of Mandos is called 'Namo', but mostly everyone calls him 'Mandos' ) where they must stay for a certain period of time depending on how good they were in their lifetime. For example Finrod Felagund the brother of Galadriel stayed there a relatively short period because of the good deeds he performed while he was still 'alive', whereas Feanor, the leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor and the creator of the Silmarills still waits in The Halls of Mandos because of all the wicked things he did when he was 'alive'.

After they have served their 'sentence' they are given another body/'croa' ( I think that's the name? ) and are returned to the world of the living. Whether they go through childhood again or are returned as adults once more I don't know, I think the latter is true but I could be wrong.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
In the sil Glorfindel died while fighting a balrog and later in LOTR he rescues Frodo & Co. I know he came back to life, but how exactly. I don't own a copy of the Sil and I don't remember which of the Valar were in charge of the Halls of the dead..... So could one of the smarter people please explain how that happened to a STUPID
person. Not a problem Arwen. It is not stupid. My explanation may not be as detailed and as good as some others may be able to explain, but I'll give it a shot.

When an Elf died in Middle-earth his spirit went to the Halls of Awaiting where he was judged by Mandos. Depending on how good he was and his deeds in life would determine how long he would remain with Mandos. Once he is given leave to go, his body is restored whole to him and he may return to Valinor, but not to Middle-earth. Glorfindel is the only Elf to ever return to Middle-earth after he is reembodied. And folks, I don't think this is the same as Luthien's return. Anyway that is my explanation for what it's worth. Inoldonil could probably explain better.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Captain Stern beat me to it. We must have posted at the same time. I believe it is hroa (body), and I think they do return as adults, picking up where they were in age at the time of their deaths.

[ringbearer]

Captain Stern wrote...
Whether they go through childhood again or are returned as adults once more I don't know, I think the latter is true but I could be wrong.

This brings up a new question for me...elf children? I don't recall reading anything about them, did they hide the children, until they were mature...were they all in day-care, or what?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ringbearer
Captain Stern wrote...


This brings up a new question for me...elf children? I don't recall reading anything about them, did they hide the children, until they were mature...were they all in day-care, or what? There were elf children mentioned. Elros and Elrond were but small children when Maglor fostered them. Then there were the two children of Dior's I believe that were lost in the woods and never found. They were but little fellows.

[Comic Book Guy]

This brings up an interesting point, how long does it take for elves to be considered and adult and physically grow into one? I know Legolas was around 400 years old and he was still considered young but he still called Aragorn and Gimli children.

My only guess is that the physical growth for Elven children was the same for the second born, but still would be considered infants at the ages of 1-18.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
This brings up an interesting point, how long does it take for elves to be considered and adult and physically grow into one? I know Legolas was around 400 years old and he was still considered young but he still called Aragorn and Gimli children.

My only guess is that the physical growth for Elven children was the same for the second born, but still would be considered infants at the ages of 1-18. I believe it explains this in one of the Vol. of the HoMe, but I am not sure which one. From what I understand though, Elves were not fully mature until they reach 100. As children they grew much slower physicaly, but matured much faster mentaly. So, it would be like if a Human child and an Elven child were both born at the same time, the Human child would grow old and die before the Elven child had even reached maturity. 100 hundred years for Humans was 1 year for Elves or something like that.

You are right about what Legolas says to Aragorn and Gimli, but I think he was more around the 900 mark. As far as I know there is no text that states Legolas' exact age though.

[Comic Book Guy]

Did he not say he'd seen a certain number of autumns, something to do with the leaves falling?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
Did he not say he'd seen a certain number of autumns, something to do with the leaves falling? You know, you are probably right. I just don't recall. It has been awhile since I read LOTRs, but I do know that it does not specifically state his age anywhere. So we just have to go by bits and pieces of information that Tolkien gives us. We will never know his exact age.

[Tessar]

well if your looking for a young elf look no further! im right here (well actuly im an elf in the RPG but in the rpg im only 12 in human years) so what do/did young elves like me do? WE SURF THE INTER NET! heehehe and we go to lots of message bords and chat rooms, and we stargaze and we rpg!

well that awsers your questin i guess. :D :) ;) :p :rolleyes: :cool:

[Miriel Stormrider]

Wow. I had always assumed they were two different Glorfindels.

[Captain Stern]

I remember seeing an explanation of how elves aged in the Michael Martinez essay: 'Elves by the Numbers', here's the link:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681


Here's the part relevant to this thread:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" Tolkien wrote that Elven children resembled mortal children for the first few years of their lives, but that by the time mortal children reached their full stature the Elven children still looked like they were about seven years old. This essay establishes that Elven children matured at a much slower rate than mortal children, and reached adulthood no earlier than their fiftieth year (though sometimes they continued growing until their one hundredth year).

Furthermore, "Laws and Customs" says that most of the Eldar married soon after their fiftieth year, and they would (in times of peace, at least) soon begin bearing children. But the Elves spaced their children some years apart. This practice allowed the parents to spend several years focusing on each child's needs.

And we can be sure (because of his comparison between Elven children and mortal children) that Tolkien was anachronistically speaking in terms of Years of the Sun, not Years of the Trees. This is important to understand because "Annals of Aman", which provides a calendar system for dating events, is given in Years of the Trees. Morgoth's Ring provides us with two conversion rates for equating Years of the Trees with Years of the Sun.

I prefer to use the older ratio of 9.58 Years of the Sun to 1 Year of the Trees because the later ratio of 144 Years of the Sun to 1 Year of the Trees is very inconsistent with many texts. The fact that it coincides with the Yen described in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings probably means only that Tolkien wasn't considering the other texts, then unpublished, because he was in the process of revising the entire (unpublished) mythology.

Finally, "Laws and Customs" also says:


The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. They had few children, but these were very dear to them. Their families, or houses, were held together by love and a deep feeling for kinship in mind and body; and the children needed little governing or teaching. There were seldom more than four children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few and eager to increase their kind, Feanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Miriel Stormrider
Wow. I had always assumed they were two different Glorfindels. Nope. They are one in the same. But, there have been many debates about this, particuliarly because of Glorfindel's name. Many think that he is the same because they believe that Tolkien says that Elves do not reuse their names. Michael Martinez has written about this saying that it was just that Glorfindel was such a striking name, that it would not be reused, but Elves did in fact reuse their names with this exception.

[Ñólendil]

There need be no argument, the bit about Elves not using the same names as another Elf of importance is an argument of Tolkien's. He decided the 'two' Glorfindels were one and the same during the last four years of his life. Glorfindel died fighting the Balrog, he went to Mandos, was judged, his body was remade (Tolkien had decided against rebirth) and he lived in Aman for a while until the Year of Dread (S.A. 1600) when he returned to Middle-earth to help the Free Peoples. You can read about this in Vol. XII of the History of Middle-earth: The Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings, Last Writings, Glorfindel. There's lots of jewels in that book.

[Comic Book Guy]

I found the quote which i was refering to, and I see it has no real relevence to his age, but I was right about the 'Red Leaves' of Autumn.

'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'


Pity it didn't say 'me' instead of 'us' :(

[ArwenEvenstar]

another question was his *fea* sent over the western sea and then rebuilt his body....(that's the best i can describe it) or was he born again like a baby Elf? (if baby Elves were every really "born")

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien twice decided against Elvish rebirth. Glorfindel's body was made anew, as it had been before it was broken.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
another question was his *fea* sent over the western sea and then rebuilt his body....(that's the best i can describe it) or was he born again like a baby Elf? (if baby Elves were every really "born") I think that Elves are only babies once. If they die, when they are released from Mandos their bodies are restored to them whole as they were before their death.

[Captain Stern]

Makes sense.

[ArwenEvenstar]

That dosen't answer my question though. His Fea was sent over the Sea right? So one day he just popped up outa nowhere in Imladris or where ever he lived when he came back to ME... Like he was reasembled?

[afro-elf]

ArwenEvenstar


I believe that he was "rebuilt" sort like the six million dollar man while in Aman.

Then sailed to middle earth

[Ñólendil]

The answer to that is found in Vol. XII of the History of Middle-earth, The Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings; Last Writings; Glorfindel : This name ['Glorfindel'] is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: [i]The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was a primitive and unorganized form, and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard. It was intended to mean 'Golden-tressed', and was the name given to the heroic 'Gnome' (Ñoldo), a chieftain of Gondolin, who in the pass of Cristhorn ('Eagle-cleft') fought with a Balrog [>Demon], whom he slew at the cost of his own life.

It use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. The is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin. Also in the now organized mythology difficulty is presented by the things recorded of Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings, if Glorfindel of Gondolin is supposed to be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell.

As for the former: he was slain the Fall of Gondolin at the end of the First Age, and if a chieftain of that city must have been a Ñoldo, one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turucáno (Turgon); at any rate when The Fall of Gondolin was written he was certainly thought to be so. But the Ñoldor of Beleriand were exiles from Valinor, having rebelled against the authority of Manwë supreme head of the Valar, and Turgon was one of the most determined and unrepentant supporters of Fëanor's rebellion.[see note 5] There is no escape from this. Gondolin is in The Silmarillion said to have been built and occupied by a people of almost entirely Ñoldorin origin.[see note 6] It might be possible, though inconsistent, to suppose that Glorfindel was a prince of Sindarin origin who had joined the host of Turgon, but this would entirely contradict what is said of Glorfindel in Rivendell in The Lord of the Rings: most notably in The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 235, where he is said to have been one of the 'lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas ... who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm.' The Sindar had never left Middle-earth.

This difficulty, far more serious than the linguistic one, may be considered first. At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible.[see note 7] No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance. Also it may be found that acceptance of the identity of Glorfindel of old and of the Third Age will actually explain what is said of him and improve the story.

When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One by obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwë granted him release. Elves were destined to be 'immortal', that is not to die with in the unknown limits decreed by the One, which at the most could be until the end of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm. Their death -- by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed -- and the disembodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could delayed[see note 8] by Manwë, if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.

Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was of the exiled Ñoldor, rebels against the authority of Manwë, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm. Manwë, however, was not bound by his own ordinances, and being still the supreme ruler of the Kingdom of Arda could set them aside, when he saw fit. From what is said of Glorfindel in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings it is evident that he was an Elda of high and noble spirit: and it can be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.[see note 9]

More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim,[see note 10] and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Eärendil to escape, and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. Though he cannot have known the importance of this (and would have defended them even had they been fugitives of any rank), this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.[see note 11] It is therefore entirely in keeping with the general design of The Silmarillion to describe the subsequent history of Glorfindel thus. After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos, and Manwë restored him.[see note 12] He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, n reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn i Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olórin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru.[see note 13] That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [>as yet been] said of this.

Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first by his own choice: Gondolin was destroyed, and all his kin had perished, and were still in the Halls of Waiting unapproachable by the living. But his long sojourn during the last years of the First Age, and at least far into the Second Age, no doubt was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwë.

When did Glorfindel return to Middle-earth? This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age, and the 'Change of the World' and the Drowning of Númenor, after which no living embodied creature, 'humane' or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm which had been 'removed from the Circles of the World'. This was according to a general ordinance proceeding from Eru Himself; and though, until the end of the Third Age, when Eru decreed that the Dominion of Men must begin, Manwë could be supposed to have received the permission of Eru to make an exception in his case, and to have devised some means for the transportation of Glorfindel to Middle-earth, this is improbable and would make Glorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting.

[Ñólendil]

We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Númenor, and while the Númenóreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200, when Sauron came in person to Lindon, and attempted to deceived Gil-galad, but was rejected and dismissed.[see note 14] But it may have been, perhaps more probably, as late as c.1600, the Year of Dread, when Barad-dûr was completed and the One Ring forged, and Celebrimbor at last became aware of the trap into which he fallen. For in 1200, though he was filled with anxiety, Gil-galad still felt strong and able to treat Sauron with contempt.[see note 15] Also at that time his Númenóreans allies were beginning to make strong permanent havens for their great ships, and also many of them had actually begun to dwell there permanently. In 1600 it became clear to all the leaders of Elves and Men (and Dwarves) that war was inevitable against Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord. They therefore began to prepare for his assault; and no doubt urgent messages and prayer asking for help were received in Númenor (and in Valinor).[see note 16]

The texts ends here, with no indication that it was unfinished, although the 'linguistic difficulty' referred to on p. 379 was not taken up.

NOTES

5 Annals of Aman (X. 112,135) it is told that following the Oath of the Fëanorians 'Fingolfin, and his son Turgon, therefore spoke against Fëanor, and fierce words awoke'; but later (X. 118, 156), when it is told that even after the utterance of the Prophesy of the North 'all Fingolfin's folk went forward still', it is said that 'Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.']

6 [The original conception that Gondolin was peopled entirely by Ñoldor was changed in many alterations to the text of the Grey Annals (see the Index to The War of the Jewels, entry Gondolin, references under 'population'): it is stated indeed (XI. 45, 113) that when Turgon sent all his people forth from Nivrost to Gondolin they constituted 'a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin's House, and a yet greater host of the Sindar. The statement here that Gondolin was 'occupied by a people of almost entirely Ñoldorin origin' obviously runs entirely counter to that conception.]

7 Elvish legends ... has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance.' It would indeed have been open to him to change the name of Glorfindel of Gondolin, who had appeared in no published writing, but he not mention the possibility.]

8 Or in gravest cases (such as that of Fëanor) withheld and referred to the One.

9 Though he [Glorfindel] is not yet named in the unrevised part of The Silmarillion treating of this matter, it is recorded that many of the Noldor of Turgon's following were in fact grieved by the decision of their king, and dreaded that evil would soon result from it. In the Third Host, that of Finarfin, so many were of this mind that when Finarfin heard the final doom of Mandos and repented, the greater part of that host returned to Valinor. Yet Finrod son of Finarfin, noblest of all the Ñoldor in the tales of Beleriand, also went away, for Turgon had been elected supreme lord of the Ñoldorin hosts.

Annals of Aman (X. 113, 138) there was no suggestion that Finrod (=Finarfin) led a separate 'Third Host': 'Thus at the last the Noldor were set forth divided in two hosts. Fëanor and his following were in the van; but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin'; and the same was said in the Quenta Silmarillion (V.235, 68, not changed later). But this note carries an extreme departure from the tradition, in the entire omission of Fingolfin. This has in fact been encountered before, in my father's very late work -- of this same period -- on the story of Maeglin, where relationships are distorted on account of a defective genealogy making Turgon the son of Finwë (XI.237); but here, in a central story of The Silmarillion, Turgon is called 'king', and 'supreme lord of the Ñoldorin hosts', and Fingolfin disappears. Of course it is not to be thought that my father actually intended such a catastrophic disruption of the narrative structure as this would bring about; and it is reassuring to see that in a reference elsewhere in these papers Fingolfin reappears.]

10 [In the margin, and written at the same time as the text, my father noted: 'The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision.']

11 This is one of the main matters of The Silmarillion and need not here be explained. But in that part of The Silmarillion as so far composed it should not be left to appear that Ulmo, chiefly concerned in the coming Tuor to Gondolin, in any way acted contrary to the Ban, against Manwë or without his knowledge. [My father perhaps had in mind Ulmo's words to Tuor on the shore at Vinyamar, Unfinished Tales p. 29.]

12 This implies that Glorfindel was natively an Elda of great bodily and spiritual stature, a noble character, and that his guilt had been small: sc. that he owed allegiance to Turgon and loved his own kindred, and these were his only reasons for remaining with them, although he was grieved by their obstinacy, and feared the doom of Mandos.

13 [Cf. the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion p. 31): 'In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows ... ']

14 No doubt because Gil-galad had by then discovered that Sauron was busy in Eregion, but had secretly begun the making of a stronghold in Mordor. (Maybe already an Elvish name for that region, because of its volcano Orodruin and its eruptions -- which were not made by Sauron but were a relic of the devastating works of Melkor in the long First Age.) [See note 15]

15 [This passage concerning Gil-galad and Sauron in the year 1200 of the Second Age, with the express statement that 'Sauron came in person to Lindon', seem to conflict with what is said in Of the Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287), that 'Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming', and would not admit him to the land.]

16 For the Valar were open to the hearing of the prayers of those in Middle-earth, as ever before, save only that in the dark days of the Ban they would listen to one prayer only from the Ñoldor: a repentant prayer pleading for pardon.

I needn't have typed all this, so I hope it helps. If not, doubtless someone who has not read it will find it interesting. These two posts were over 15,000 characters long, and one post can only contain 10,000, that's why I had to make two. :)

[ArwenEvenstar]

thanks:Þ

[Ñólendil]

You're welcome! How did you get that tongue for your smiley? It looks like the Greek lower case character for a voiced 'th'. Tolkien uses it for Quenya. Which numbers did you punch in?

[Comic Book Guy]

Try ALT+0254 for lower case þ and for higher case Þ, ALT+0222.

[Ñólendil]

So that was an upper-case, eh? Looks small, somehow. Thanks a bunch CBG!

[Comic Book Guy]

Actually Inoldonil You're right, I got the cases wrong. do'h :(

[Ñólendil]

I'm pretty sure you were right, now. 'Þerindë' looks more correct than þerindë. Especially when in this font.

[Kirinki54]

Inoldonil, thanks for the monster post! Very comprehensive. :)

Do you have any idea where I got the notion that in one version Glorfindel came back with the same ship as Gandalf? I have a nagging feeling I have seen it in some obscure footnote, but I can´t find it now... Of course that is totally inconsistent with other dates/versions.

[Ñólendil]

That Glorfindel came with Gandalf in the Third Age is said in the first Glorfindel essay, which was replaced by the idea emerging in my monster post. Both can be found in the same place, in Vol. XII. If you have not read it, I guess you have heard from someone who has, or someone who had heard from someone who has.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
That Glorfindel came with Gandalf in the Third Age is said in the first Glorfindel essay, which was replaced by the idea emerging in my monster post. Both can be found in the same place, in Vol. XII.

Well I´ll be...! I thought I could read but perhaps I´d better take the course again! ;)

That is indeed the first version in Ch XIII, Last Writings.