Elven armies

[afro-elf]

I get the impression that the Elves could wipe the field with any foe they fought.

With the exception of Melkor, himself, and the dragons and balrogs.

Who gave the Elves so much trouble?

Wouldn't they just kill all the Orcs leaving Melkor and his few powerful servants by themselves?

If Numeoner at its high in power had a war with the elves of the
1st age
2nd age
Who would probably win?

[UnStashable]

Im not sure what your 1st question is about exactly but if u mean why did they have so much trouble with them in the 2nd and 3rd ages. First of all Large numbers of elves had left middle earth by the 2nd and 3rd ages so they weren't able to lead such huge armies. Also the orcs were only repeatly beaten easily by the noldor who were the most trained smiths of the elves. The Teleri had alot of trouble with "mere" orcs even the Sindar who were effectively armed by the dwarves. Whose weapons and armor were at least on peer with the noldor (at least in skill of craft probably not in any "magic" in the blade). Lastly i think Sauron Used large numbers of evil men against the elves outside of the war of wrath I have never read in detail about any engagment between Elves and men.

[afro-elf]

I assumed that since the Elves seem to be a superior race why didn't they just put the smack down on their foes in the first age.

I know the noldar were the MOST superior. But weren't all the Elves blessed with certain "gifts".



But I think Orcs breed the fastest and are the most war prone.

So perhaps the avari and sindar were not battle hardened.



The second question is

What would be the rankings of the various armies of Middle-Earth (excluding Valinor) of all ages and races be.

So the Noldar (1st age) vs Gil-galad and his legions Vs Numenor at its height vs the 1st age dwarves vs the Gondor at its height vs the Kindgom in exile etc

[Finmandos12]

Gil-gald didn't have that many, elves. Most of the soldiers in the Last Alliance were Numenorean exiles. All the Noldor (Feanor's sons' armies and Fingolfin's armies) would have easily beaten all the others.

[UnStashable]

I read in (I think the Unfinished tales) that there were a fair ammount of elves but they were by far, mostly silvan (and avari) elves. It described them as not being used to the siege warfare with armor and what not. And thus took gruelling casulties

[Wayfarer]

"Gil-gald didn't have that many, elves. Most of the soldiers in the Last Alliance were Numenorean exiles."

Cosidering that the last alliance fielded an army larger than that of ar pharazon, there were still a lot of elves

Actually, this is one place where common opinion does hold true. Elves were physically weaker than men, but a lot faster. Orcs were still faster than men, andso stronger, but less skilled.

Read about turin, and it says he'd grown as fast as an elf, but was still as strong as a man. Also, Hurin thalion was a far better warrior than even fingolfin in my opinion. I can't imagine any of the noldor taking on sixty trolls.

I imagine elvish battle techniques were similar to a phalanx or a shield wall, more disciplined than any others. Orcs are a mob, and men always seem to be more barbarian in combat.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
Actually, this is one place where common opinion does hold true. Elves were physically weaker than men, but a lot faster.
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Do me a favor, post some relevant citations and quotes backing up this claim ('Elves weak, Men strong').

[afro-elf]

When we say Men being strong what type of man do we mean.

I hardly imagine Barliman stronger than Fingofin.

I had the image that the Noldar where physically the strongest.

Followed by the Edain and Numeonoreans.

Then the sindar

The avg. men like breelanders

Then silvan/avari


I've been too influenced by NON-Tolkien Dwarves so I don't know where his Dwarves would fit.

I assumed Hobbits where last.

Aragorn/Boromir were stronger than the at least Half Sindarian Legolas. Thrandruil was Sindar, but I don't think we know about his mom.

Do we mean warrior types vs. warrior type. Avg. vs. Avg.

Or a general statement?

[afro-elf]

Who is Hurin Thalion ?

I've heard the story about the70 troll s,but I know nothing else about it.


Also, like Greek myths it seem like the heroes in the Golden Age,(1st Age) were greater than the heroes in the Silver Age,( 2nd)
and Second Age better than the Bronze Age(3rd).


So it seems the heroes of the preceeding Ages are of legendary stature to those of the following ages.

My Simarillion Knowledge is limited. But wasn't Beleg a Sindar hero? It seems he could easily open a can of whoop ass on Legolas.


How do Aragorn, Imrahil and Eomer, fair against Hurin, Tour, and Turin?

[Ñólendil]

Aragorn was a descendant of Tuor, that's all I can say. I am rather against comparing characters and Races from completely different time periods in contests of strength and 'fighting skills', personally. Obviously others don't agree with me.

Yes, Beleg was a Sindarin hero. He was of the Iathrim, the 'People of the Fence', Thingol's folk in Doriath.

These words from Elrond to Frodo seem to belong here:

'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'

Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. 'If I understand aright all that I have heard,' he said, 'I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

'But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.'

Frodo did not measure up to these others in strength of arms, but that seems rather unimportant here. Indeed strength in battle is given limited importance in Tolkien's legendarium. Tulkas Astaldo the Champion, who represents the 'good side of violence', is named least of the lords of the Valar. Imrahil and Éomer were not in the same league as Frodo the Ringbearer, who received his own holiday in the Reunited Kingdom during the Fourth Age.

[olorin7]

it was posted that orcs were stronger and faster than men. in the third age, according to ltr it would seem faster maybe, but definitly not more powerful. it wasn't until surumans breed of orcs that there was even a comparison. and as for the strength difference between elves and men, what about on caradhras? when the fellowship was snowed in it is explicitly said that men are superior to elves in strength.

[afro-elf]

with your example forget not that legolas was at sindarian maybe even 1/2 sindar and half silvan

the question for me was concerning the noldar who lived in aman

i believe that calaquendi where the strongest

[Ñólendil]

Noldor, afro-elf, Noldor.

[afro-elf]

of course meaning that the spelling is noldor
not that legolas was one

just my avari accent:)

[Elanor Gamgee]

I wonder if the following quote might throw some light on the elf/man strength comparison in general and Legolas' abilities in particular :)
"there was nothing filmy or transparent about the heroic or majestic Eldar of the Third Age of Middle-earth. Long afterwards, my father (Cristopher Tolkien's referring to Ronald - E.G.) would write, in a wrathful comment on a "pretty" or "ladylike" pictorial rendering of Legolas:
He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgžl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock and through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship."
The Book of Lost Tales 2, "The History of Eriol or Aelfwine"

[afro-elf]

thanks ms.gamgee

[easterlinge]

Legolas also ran without rest or sleep from Anduin to Edoras. Very strong on the marathon bit. Even Strider and Gimli needed to rest and sleep, but Legolas was striding around when they woke, not even needing rest.

Then he rode to battle in the Hornburg....

Hey, I wonder if this very curious long distance marathon ability in Elves means that entire Elven armies can appear where they are not expected?

I mean Orcs and other enemies would hear that Elves are several dozen miles away, think they're safe for several days at least, then WHAM!! THE ELVES ARE HERE !! THE ELVES ARE HERE!! AAAGGGHHHH!!!

Also the Elves moving around like that means their enemies can never exactly know how far away they are.

I imagine Turgon's phalanxes trotting/running like a Zulu impi at a furious rate to the battlefield from a long way off, suddenly appearing in front of their enemies out of the mist (to their immense surprise), levelling their spears and charging.

A single Elf army can control a large territory this way.

[Lelondul]

From what I remember, Tolkien mentions the greater 'hardihood' of men in several places in his works. Not to say that Legolas (or other elves) didn't possess all the attributes (in varying degrees) stated above, but in brute strength, the Edain and Numenoreans were the 'strongest' physically. But a man or elf on a bad day could easily lose to a dwarf or vice-versa in hand-to-hand combat.

As Inolo said, all the races had distinct advantages/disadvantages to their physical make-up. Each race was also more proficient with different types of weapons: an elf would likely win an archery contest, dwarves axe-wielding contest, etc. They are all products of their environments/makers...

[afro-elf]

once again there were difference types of men and elves

and the calaquendi seem to be the greatest of them all

[afro-elf]

check out this thread for more info

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2220

[ranger]

in my opinion orli is a disgrace to elves!!!* chants* KILL HIM, KILL HIM.........

[Draken]

Nice thread AE!

Going back to the War of the Jewels, weren't many of Morgoth's underlings renegade Maia - as well as Sauron I think the Balrogs, werewolves and vampires were all Maia. So the bad guys had a lot of heavy hitters to back up the orcs, whose strategy seemed to be "quantity versus quality".

But then as the Soviets always said, "Quantity has a quality all of it's own"

[Lefty Scaevola]

Recall that not only are there fewer Elves around at the end of the third age than in the first age, but that on average the are very much older that in the first age, and thus average much more 'faded' which reduces physical stature and strength. This would affect the remaining Noldorin exiles even more, being thousands of years old., and likely in addition to fading, they are losing some of the extra power of spirit acrued when they dwelt in Valinor. Note how speciallu powerfull Glorfindal is. He was reembodied in Aman after the War of the Jewels and returned to ME either in the Second or third ages (JRRT had a few different ideas on when this occured). I suspect that a 6.5 to 8 foot tall Nolda warrior fresh out of Aman would whip up on most of the great human Heros in a physical contest.