Power of the Balrogs and Elven Kings

[Capuken]

It is very interesting to me to see the difference between the blarogs described in the silmarillion as opposed to the balrog of Kazad-dum. The Balrog of Khazad-dum was seen using magic that matched that of Gandalf, arguably the greatest of the Istari. But in the Silmarillion the Balrogs seem to fight in simple hand to hand combat using weapons like swords, fire-whips, and axes, and of coarse fire. They never seem to make any sort of incantations or any spells of power. I wonder the extent of their power at this time. Could it simply be that the Balrog of kazhad-dum was just much older and had time to learn those arts, or was he just more powerful?
That raises another question in my mind, how did gandalf compare up to the Kings of the Noldor. Gandalf was an incarnate of the holy race of maia, where as the kings of the noldor were simply elves. Of coarse all of the elves that fought balrogs were counted as some of the greatest elves in the history of arda like:
Feanor, Fingon, Turgon, Ecthelien, Glorfindel... But did their power rival that of a Maia?
Finarfin matched up to sauron in the "Ilse of Werewolves" while trying to help Beren, and the kings of the noldor accomplished many other incredible fears.
I mean Feanor, (who happens to be my favorite elf) seems to have been described as taking on more than one balrog at at time. how does this then compare to gandalf who was equal to just one balrog. I think this just shows how incredibly strong and "powerful" the noldorin kings of the first age were.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome to Entmoot!

The difference between the Balrog in the LR and the Balrogs in the Silmarillion is due to the fact that Christopher Tolkien had mostly only a very old conception of Balrogs to go on for the Silmarillion narratives. They were in fact completely different creatures, but CT obscured that fact. I don't have the energy to get into it at great length, I'm sure someone else will explain it. I might say that Tolkien's final word was that there should be only '(say) three or at most seven' Balrogs altogether.

[Comic Book Guy]

I guess Balrogs would have had different skills and learned different arts, they were all made with different ranks of power. The Balrog in Moria did have spells, it countered Gandalf.

Gandalf was incarnate of maia, but he was of incarnate of a simply an man, which feel pain, hunger and other mortal disavantages. Most elves were more powerful than men, especialy great lords like Feanor and Fingon, because of their heritage.

Your also right in saying the Elder were incredibly powerful, especially the older ones.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Capuken

Finarfin matched up to sauron in the "Ilse of Werewolves" while trying to help Beren, and the kings of the noldor accomplished many other incredible fears. Ummm, not to nitpick, but I think you are confusing Finarfin with his son, Finrod Felagund. Finarfin never came to Middle-earth. Finrod is my favorite character. So I hate to see someone else getting the credit for his deeds.

[easterlinge]

The Balrog of Moria was the last of its kind. Maybe it survived the War of Wrath precisely because it was one of the most powerful Balrogs? And thus the equal of an average Maia?

I wonder what its name was. "Spot"? "Fluffy"? "Firestone"? "Sparky"? "Smoky"?

:)

[Xivigg]

as an Istarii Gandalf had to leave much of his power behind
he was to give hope to the free people and guide them to an extend in their battle agains't Sauron

he's not suposed to be an all powerfull fighting machine blasting to dust everything in his path.

he and the other Istarii are suposed to balance Sauron force by helping the people that fight agains't him not do the actual fighting themself

Gandalf did fight the Moria Balrog but he die in the process like (to my knowlege) every other elflord who fight Balrog

only unlike them he had the power to retake another shape (and he also get a little help from his Vala patron)

[Capuken]

Yes, I agree that the Istari did have to give up their power in order to complete their mission to guide the free peoples of middle earth. I totally agree that their agenda was much different than that of the elves. But when it all comes down to it, I highly doubt that Gandalf held back at all when he faced the Balrog. I'm not quite sure that every other elf lord that fought a balrog died. I don't have the Silmarillion on hand, but for some reason I think that maybe Ecthelion (sp?) of Gondolin might have survived a battle with a balrog (gothmog?)

Was it ever stated the the balrog of Moria was the last of his kind? THe only refference of the remaining balrogs is that some escaped the war of wrath, which in my mind connotes that there would have been more than one left. But im sure he must have been a powerful balrog none the less

Sorry sister golden hair, that was a mistake on my part, i meant Finrod Finarfin's son.

I guess then that the balrog in Khazad dum had become more powerful over the ages and might have been one of the more powerful balrogs

But now thinking about it, how about Morgoth when he fought Fingolfin. How come he didn't use any magic or sorcery. It is said in many places that he was the greatest being ever to enter Ea but he was reduced to merely fighting with a hammer? Im sure he was still very powerful and the strength of his attacks were great, but the first dark lord, the evil incarnate in tolkiens world not using spells was beyond me. I know that he was trapped in his dark lord form and let much of his power go wasted away on hatred and he divided it among his other creatures, but I still think that in order to save himself from the pain of the seven wounds and the loss of a foot he could have done something better against Fingolfin.

[Captain Stern]

The reason you don't see balrog's using "magic" in 'The Silmarillion' is because of the way The Silmarillion was written, it's written in such a concise way that there was no room to go into detail about how they fought.

The Ainur AND the Elves could use "magic" or more accurately "sub-creation" ( only Eru can "create" / to give life but the Ainur and the Elves and perhaps to a lesser extent Dwarves could only "sub-create"/ to shape Arda to their wills ) because they were both bound to Arda unlike Men/ "the guests" who therefore could not use sub-creation.

That's why The Valar invited the Elves to live with them in Aman because both races were so similar.


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Gandalf was an incarnate of the holy race of maia, where as the kings of the noldor were simply elves.
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That isn't really fair. You can not call the lords of the Eldar "simply Elves". They were the most powerful of the Children of Illuvatar, certainly up to the task of battling the holy race of the maiar.

Gandalf was not among the most powerful of the Maiar, in the essay on Istari in Unfinished Tales:

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Most of the remaining writings on the Istari(as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illiegible. Of major interest however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of the council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë(And maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?), at which it was resolved that there should be three emissaries to Middle-Earth. "Who would go, for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and must clothe themselves in flesh as so to treat on equality and trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearyness coming from the flesh." But only two came foward, Curumo who was Chosen from Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in gray, and having just entered from a journey seated himself at the end of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third Messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olórin declared he was much to weak for a task and that he feared Sauron. And Manwë said that was all the more reason he should go, and that he commanded Olórin.(Illiegible words that follow that seem to contain the word "Third") But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the Third"; and Curumo remembered it.
The note end with Curumo took Aiwendil because Yavanna begged him and Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
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Tolkien changed his mind about how powerful balrog's should be frequently. Durin's Bane is what he finally decided on. There would be only 7 balrog's and they would be more powerful than the ones in The Silmarillion. The balrog's were said to be the most powerful of Morgoth's maiar so it's therefore quite puzzling how Gandalf managed to kill Durin's bane. Perhaps the Balrog in Moria was still weakened after the war of wrath or perhaps the Istari had been leant extra power by Eru or the Valar incase the worst came to worst and they would have to actualy combat Sauron directly.

[Comic Book Guy]

Morgoth may have used spells, it is said that he used the black arts to corrupt Elves into Orcs, but I guess I would be correct in thinking that in combat he used his physical strength and power against his enemys.

He used his spear to pierce the two trees which must have shown great strength (The Trees were probally tough), he wrestled with Tulkas a lot of times instead of using spells and he fought with Fingolfin, but Fingolfin challenged him to a duel which may have stopped the Magic arts being used.

Also I'm interested, were does it say there were only seven balrogs, maybe a quote?

[Ñólendil]

In Morgoth's Ring, Vol. X of the History of Middle-earth, Tolkien said (in a note after the completion of the LR) that there should be '(say) three or at most seven' of them. This was his final decision. It is for this reason that I and others believe only one survived the War of Wrath (not 'several', what I believe it says in the published Silmarillion); the one that Gandalf slew.

If there were indeed only three, than these three would be Gothmog, and the Balrogs slain by Glorfindel and Gandalf, though the battles of the former two undoubtedly would have been much different if Tolkien had gotten to rewriting them after the LR was published.

Of course Gothmog was the greatest of the Balrogs. He seems lesser than Durin's Bane because the only extant narratives dealing with him is when the Balrogs were a different Race altogether, when they were bred by Morgoth and were far less in stature and power.

[afro-elf]

Inoldonil wasn't Feanor slain by Balrogs also?

So maybe 7 was the number.


If there where only a few it makes the battles with them quite epic.


Even if there where dozens of them in the orignal conception, they still would have been a powerful nemesis to defeat.

There were 11 noble houses in Gondolin. So dozens of Balrogs= dozens of Noldo Nobles.

We all know the the Eldarian Lords could really wipe the field.

[Ñólendil]

Fëanor was slain by Balrogs (possibly only one Balrog if Tolkien had returned to revise the old narratives), but it is not said that Fëanor slew any Balrogs.

In the original conception there were hundreds if not thousands of them. In the Book of Lost Tales, with the old Balrogs (from which mostly {except for one or two passages} the Balrogs of the Silmarillion come from), the Gnomes (read: Noldor) were able to fight with whole armies of them. In the Lord of the Rings -- during the writings of which the new conception of Balrogs emerges -- it is revealed that but one Balrog brought about the destruction of the greatest of the Dwarven mansions that there ever were, and it's evil spread to the surrounding lands and brought sorrow to many peoples in the Northwest. No army made of Children of Eru could contest with an army of these terrible demons of awesome might and magic. Hence Tolkien's decision to reduce their number.

[afro-elf]

i've got no problem with that


i rememeber that fingon was slain by balrogs too

[Captain Stern]

Oh please Inoldonil, Feanor slain by a single revised Balrog?!

Give me a break!

[Ñólendil]

Maybe, maybe! Think! The Maia Olórin slew a Balrog (and was slain in his turn). I know how highly you put Faenor, and I don't dissagree with everything you think about him. But surely Faenor could be slain by a Balrog that was greater than another Balrog that destroyed (and was destroyed by) a Maia? Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs (this title may have changed if there were only three of them, I think, but he would be the greatest), might have slain Faenor, or dealt him a blow too great for the preservation of his body. It would have been a long battle, though, and outside aid for Gothmog must have been very possible.

I don't know, I always end up in the same place when I argue with you about this: unsure. It is indeed quite possible, if there were only three Balrogs, that Morgoth would have sent all three out, and they would battle with Faenor all day until his army came up to help him, then the Balrogs would leave, knowing they had done their job. Faenor would die later. That's acceptable, isn't it?

[afro-elf]

WHEN did Fingon die? He was also killed by Balrogs. Was it before or after Glorfindel and Ecthelion killed theirs.

I think 3 is TOO few, BUT seven would be more appropriate.

If Gothmog was the most powerful of Balrogs, 3 seems a little sparse.

Dramatically speaking which sounds better:


There stood Ecthelion of the Fountain. His ebony hair flew back like a great black mantle borne upon the doom winds of Gondolin.
His eyes burned with an intensity that outshone the flames
of his home that was now an inferno.

And before him stood none other than Gothmog and he was Balrog. (3 /7) there were of Melkor's chief servants and Gothmog was their lord.


It just sounds better to ME for him to be Lord of 7 and not 3

[Captain Stern]

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I don't know, I always end up in the same place when I argue with you about this: unsure. It is indeed quite possible, if there were only three Balrogs, that Morgoth would have sent all three out, and they would battle with Faenor all day until his army came up to help him, then the Balrogs would leave, knowing they had done their job. Faenor would die later. That's acceptable, isn't it?
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Yes Inoldonil that's very acceptable in my view.

For a minute there I was worried you'd start an "I hate Feanor" web page :p I'm glad you clarified you'r postion on the whole matter :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
WHEN did Fingon die? He was also killed by Balrogs. Was it before or after Glorfindel and Ecthelion killed theirs Fingon would have died before them afro-elf. Fingon died in the Western Pass fighting two Balrogs, Gothmog and another in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Unnumbereed Tears). In this battle Hithlum fell, and Nargothrond not long after. Gondolin was I believe the last of the great Elven realms to fall. Perhaps it was Doriath. Not sure there.

[afro-elf]

thanks sister golden hair

[Ñólendil]

Doriath indeed fell before Gondolin. Not long before, but before. The Fall of Gondolin sort of overlaps both the Narn I Chîn Húrin, the Wanderings of Húrin and the Sigil Elu-naeth ('the Necklace of the Woe of Elwe'), chronologically.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Of course Gothmog was the greatest of the Balrogs. He seems lesser than Durin's Bane because the only extant narratives dealing with him is when the Balrogs were a different Race altogether, when they were bred by Morgoth and were far less in stature and power.

Just curious, did Morgoth actually breed Balrogs? I imagined they were Maiar?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Just curious, did Morgoth actually breed Balrogs? I imagined they were Maiar? I believe Inoldonil is refering to a different account by Tolkien. There are many different accounts of different things. He changed his mind alot it seems. But I think the final account was that Balrogs were maiar.

[Wayfarer]

As to the initial question, the balrogs (and morgoth) didn't use spells because it wasn't nescessary. Most magic in tolkien isn't the type that can blow your enemies away (unless you're manwe :)). They had flaming swords, and superhuman strength, speed, and endurance versus elves with sharp swords and good spped and endurance.


PS... grond wasn't a hammer, was it? I thought the sil said it was a mace?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer



PS... grond wasn't a hammer, was it? I thought the sil said it was a mace? Grond was a hammer. In the Silmarillion it is called: "the Hammer of the Underworld."

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
As to the initial question, the balrogs (and morgoth) didn't use spells because it wasn't nescessary. Most magic in tolkien isn't the type that can blow your enemies away (unless you're manwe :)). They had flaming swords, and superhuman strength, speed, and endurance versus elves with sharp swords and good spped and endurance.


PS... grond wasn't a hammer, was it? I thought the sil said it was a mace?

It seems Durin´s Bane in LoTR is different in many ways, because it actually used a spell in Moria. Quite powerful too, as Gandalfs counter-spell did not break it, but the door exploded instead.

Grond was a mace of Morgoth, but Sauron later named his battering ram after it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Grond was a mace of Morgoth, but Sauron later named his battering ram after it. What is the difference between a hammer and a mace? The Silmarillion "Then Morgoth hurled aloft grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder." Chapter (Of The Ruin Of Beleriand And The Fall Of Fingolfin)

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What is the difference between a hammer and a mace? The Silmarillion "Then Morgoth hurled aloft grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder." Chapter (Of The Ruin Of Beleriand And The Fall Of Fingolfin)

A mace is more like a club, and I had a recollection of seeing Grond described in this way. Now that I think of it, was that description in the Sil? I better go look. But anyway your quote is very right so perhaps hammer it is?

[Comic Book Guy]

Well the orcs of Sauron in the third age, named their ram Grond also.

Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, Orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

Now if it was a proper memory, it would be around about the same design would it not? (Sorry for going off topic)

Does anybody know if Tolkiens use of magic was deliberate, and what his views on it was? I believe he wanted to be original and different, like his elves and his dragons instead of the 'magic and fireballs every five minutes' style so waywarer you are correct.

[Wayfarer]

Yes, Grond was called the hammer of the underworld. But it was described as a mace.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Yes, Grond was called the hammer of the underworld. But it was described as a mace. Can you tell me where I can find this? It does not seem to be in the Sil.

[Wayfarer]

I think it was in the back, in the names reference? Try there.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I think it was in the back, in the names reference? Try there. It does say both mace and hammer. Thanks Wayfarer.

[afro-elf]

I have a memory ( though it could be false) about Grond being a mace.

Maybe I'm confusing it with the Lord of the Nazgul. Didn't he wield a mace?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I have a memory ( though it could be false) about Grond being a mace.

Maybe I'm confusing it with the Lord of the Nazgul. Didn't he wield a mace? I don't know about that afro-elf, but Gothmog wield a mace, and so did other Balrogs. After they killed Fingon, they beat him into the dust with them. It must have been one of the weopons of choice.

[Ñólendil]

Yes, the Witch-king used a mace when he fought Éowyn.

[afro-elf]

Wow!

How many Balrogs fought Fingon?

[Ñólendil]

In my opinion, no one knows, since Tolkien never wrote any detailed narratives with the 'LR Balrogs' in them. In the published Silmarillion, Fingon fought Gothmog. While other Balrogs came up from behind and cast their thongs of fire about the Noldorin King, Gothmog hewed his head off with his axe. I don't know about beating him into the dust with maces.

[Sister Golden Hair]

There were two Balrogs that fought Fingon, and I don't think they chopped off his head exactly. Here is the passage: "But now in the western battle Fingon and Turgon were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater then all of the forces that were left to them. Gothmog,, Lord of Balrogs, High Captian of Angband was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elven hosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Hurin aside toward the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up out of the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood." (The Silmarillion- Chapter 20-Of The Fifth Battle-Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up out of the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood." (The Silmarillion- Chapter 20-Of The Fifth Battle-Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

I always pictured all Balrogs to be armed like Durin´s Bane; that is with a sword of fire and a many-thonged whip. (I think a have seen a description of Balrogs as a group all using these weapons?)

But here are maces and an axe. Perhaps this is one of the differences that Balrogs underwent in Tokien´s writings.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy

Now if it was a proper memory, it would be around about the same design would it not?


No, it was not really a proper memory or a replica of the original Grond, but more of an honorific from Sauron to to his old Master Morgoth.

The later Grond was far from a mace or hammer, it consisted of an enormous battering ram wrought in black steel and suspended on chains between a construction of huge girders.
(The girders are my own speculation; the text doesn´t say so.)