what's the difference between...

[afro-elf]

what's the difference between helm's deep and the hornburg?

[Ñólendil]

Do you have J. R. R. Tolkien Artist and Illustrator by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull? It would help a lot, the maps of Helm's Deep & the Hornburg with commentary:

The geography of Helm's Deep, the stronghold of Men in the lands of Rohan, required even more careful planning. In preparation for the fierce battle fought there in book 3, chapter 7, Tolkien drew (within one of the draft manuscripts of the chapter) a combination aerial view and map showing the fortifications and adjacent lands. In his final text he described the fastness:

. . . on the far side of the Westfold Vale, a great bay in the mountains, lay a green coomb out of which a gorge opened in the hills. Men of that land called it Helm's Deep. . . . Ever steeper and narrower it wound inward from the north under the shadow of the Thrihyrne, till the crowhaunted cliffs rose like mighty towers on either side, shutting out the light.

At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone, and within them was a lofty tower. Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants. The Hornburg it was called, for a trumpet sounded upon the tower echoed in the Deep behind, as if armies long-forgotten were issuing to war from caves beneath the hills. A wall, too, the men of old had made from the Hornburg to the southern cliff, barring the entrance to the gorge. Beneath it by a wide culvert the Deeping Stream passed out. About the feet of the Hornrock it wound, and flowed then in a gully through the midst of a wide green gore, sloping gently down from Helm's Gate to Helm's Dike. Thence it fell into the Deeping Coomb and out into the Westfold Vale.

I can't find an online picture of Tolkien's Hornburg & Helm's Deep unfortunately. In the chapter Helm's Deep most of the fighting is in the Hornburg; the actual Deep of Helm comes into play briefly, with Gimli's valour and chief importance in the battle:

The men of Rohan grew weary. All their arrows were spent, and every shaft was shot; their swords were notched, and their shields were riven. Three times Aragorn and Éomer rallied them, and three times Andúril flamed in a desperate charge that drove the enemy from the wall.

Then a clamour arose in the Deep behind. Orcs had crept like rats through the culvert through which the stream flowed out. There they had gathered in the shadow of the cliffs, until the assault above was hottest and nearly all the men of the defence had rushed to the wall's top. Then they sprung out. Already some had passed in to the jaws of the Deep and were among the horses, fighting with the guards.

Down from the wall leapt Gimli with a fierce cry that echoed in the cliffs. 'Khazâd! Khazâd!' He soon had work enough.

'Ai-oi!' he shouted. 'The Orcs are behind the wall. Ai-oi! Come, Legolas! There are enough for us both. Khazâd ai-mênu!'

Gamling the Old looked down from the Hornburg, hearing the great voice of the dwarf above all the tumult. 'The Orcs are in the Deep!' he cried. 'Helm! Helm! Forth Helmingas!' he shouted as he leaped down the stair from the Rock with many men of Westfold at his back.

Their onset was fierce and sudden, and the Orcs gave way before them. Ere long they were hemmed in in the narrows of the gorge, and all were slain or driven shrieking into the chasm of the Deep to fall before the guardians of the hidden caves.

'Twenty-one!' cried Gimli. He hewed a two-handed stroke and laid the last Orc before his feet. 'Now my count passes Master Legolas again.'

'We must stop this rat-hole,' said Gamling. 'Dwarves are said to be cunning folk with stone. Lend us your aid, master!'

'We do not shape stone with battle-axes, nor with our finger-nails,' said Gimli. 'But I will help as I may.'

They gathered such small boulders and broken stones as they cold find to hand, and under Gimli's direction the Westfold-men blocked up the inner end of the culvert, until only a narrow outlet remained. Then the Deeping-stream, swollen by the rain, churned and fretted in its choked path, and spread slowly in cold pools from cliff to cliff.

'It will be drier above,' said Gimli. 'Come, Gamling, let us see how things go on the wall!'

As you might be able to tell now, the Deep led into the Glittering Caves.

[afro-elf]

thanks for the info

i did find one site with a picture
the link is here

http://home.wxs.nl/~radiant/Helmsjpg.htm

[Ñólendil]

Rob Aaldijk is a wonderful artist and actually bases many of his renditions on Tolkien's own illustrations.* This is a case. Geographically, his picture of Helm's Deep and the Hornburg are in perfect accord with Tolkien's maps of the two published in Artist & Illustrator. Although in Aaldijk's picture it is a little difficult to tell that the Deep continues on into the mountain, with no 'dead-end'.

Thank you for the link!



*Not that 'accuracy' as conceived by most purists has anything to do with the quality of art.