magic and power

[afro-elf]

There has been some talk about magic and power in the realm of middle earth

here is some info i got off the net that gives IMHO a good idea of it.
it is QUITE paraphrased



Power

. Only a
very few beings in Middle-Earth still (late 3rd age) have noteworthy power. They are, in order:



The Valar. Only Olmo is remotely likely to make any appearance whatsoever.

Such Maiar as remain East of the sea. Tom Bombadil. Gandalf. Sauron. Sauruman. Radagast. Goldberry.

The Noldor. The Noldor that remain in Middle-Earth are all exceptionally powerful, since they have the power of Aman in
them.

Other Elves have power of a lesser degree, the Sindar more than the Silvan Elves, because the former were taught by the
Noldor in the remote Ages of the world, while the latter were not.

The Numenorians. These high men have power, though rarely Spellcraft or Shapeshifting, and are known to be both
Crafters and Farsighted.

Dwarves. The Dwarves know their Craft, but rarely have any other abilities.

Men, Orcs, and Hobbits occasionally prove to be Farsighted or to be able to bless and curse.

Power as a whole has declined over the long years of Middle-Earth. Where before, perhaps, many of the Noldor could have
stood alone against a Bolrog, by the time of the War of the Rings, their number had shrunk to almost none. And where the men
of Numen or had the strength to oppose Sauron at the height of the Second Age, by the Third, he was all but invincible. Even
the colors and beauty of the land had shrunk, to become something more mortal, less Elvish.




Power by itself is a motive force, not a tool. As such, contests of raw Power tend to be blunt and spectacular. One Power may
try to drive away the other or beat them down. This is a simple contest of attributes. A power exerting itself often has a b it of
its nature revealed. Evil powers most often appear dark and dreadful. Lights may often dim, shadows lengthen, etc. Good
powers, too, will apear larger than life, and often radiate or glow according to their stature. If one power is marginally b etter
than the other, it can hold it at bay, or force it way. If it is signifigantly better, it can hold the other in place, or collapse its will.



Power as an Aid to Sight

Power also acts as a focus of perceptions beyond mortal kin. With sufficient Power a character can detect the presence of
other Powers, either near at hand, or far away. The first is easier than the second. At O-level, these perceptions are limited an
d subjective: "This wood feels evil." or "There's something funny about the old man." At E-level, they solidify somewhat, and
come under the control of the character's will, if he concentrates. "The only evil you feel in the wood is far away." or "Th e old
man is more than he seems." At S-level, they become constantly-working senses: "You feel evil on the borders of the wood." or
"The old man is hiding a power. You cannot read his mind." In any case, the effective range is never more than 20 mile s or so.

At the high S-level, however, characters who actively scry from a high place, or with the aid of a device like Galadriel's mirror,
can attempt to find and contact other S-level powers or engage them in contests.

Power as Vision


In addition to the his or her "radar" senses, a Powerful character can also peep into the symbolic world and the wraith world. In
these visions people apear strangely: Glorfindel as a glowing figure, the Ring as a wheel of fire, Aragorn as a man with a magical
crown, Saruman as a striking snake, etc.

Hiding from other Powers

Hiding oneself from the perceptions of others is exceptionally difficult, more so for evil beings than good ones. If one does not
exercise one's power, one can hide from all other Powers, provided it is not searching for you, in which case; should its e ye fall
on you, a contest is immediately engaged. Active use of power (especially Spellcraft) is like a bugle-call for all to hear and can
draw all sorts of attention, even upon lesser Powers. You cannot both use a Power and keep it hidden.

Power and Healing

Sometimes wounds are not just natural, but supernatural, too. In that case, the healer must have Power greater than or equal to
the thing or person who gave the wound in order to effect a cure. There's a certain amount of craft to this, too, so the hea ler
might also need tools or herbs to do the job right. Aragorn needed Atheleas to cure Merry and Eowyn. Elrond had to melt the
blade-shard that had lodged in Frodo's arm. Speaking of Frodo, don't neglect Endurance as a factor in magical wounding. It
was the Hobbit's Endurance, not his Power, that enabled him to bear up for so long under both the shard, and, later, the Ring.



Power and Leadership

Great Power goes hand in hand with great Warfare. An S-level or M-level Power can put his or her will into the troops of their
army, thereby making command easier and giving a boost to their Warfare in all contests. A high Power allows the building and
co-ordination of an army far, far larger than might be possible under ordinary laws of logistics and morale. The converse, of
course, is that once the controling Power is removed, the army will fall apart. If these rules seem to trample on the preserve of
Warfare, too bad, cuz it's the way things work.



Levels of Power:

Ordinary Power

provides only the barest protection against invasive spells and magics. Magical abilites lie mostly dormant
at this level, or work only sporatically. A character with Ordinary power will on ly be able to sense the most overpowering
forces in the area (10-20 miles), and then only dimly. Merry, Pippin and Sam all had O-level Power.

Exceptional Power.

Characters with Exceptional power will be able to use freely whatever magical abilites they purchase.
Their defense at this point is stronger, and they can usually detect uses of power nea rby (10-15' radius) or directed against
them. If they concentrate, they can detect the general feel of an area or person: good or evil, powerful or weak, etc, and
discern far-off workings of Power. (Provided the other does not hide itself,) Occasionally , they will see with a second sight or
into the wraith-world. Legolas had E-level Power.

Supernatural Power puts a whole range of extra-ordinary senses at the command of the character. They can detect the
nature of any being , see through magical disguises and invisibilities, even read the surfac e-thought of an adversary, through a
simple power-contest. Only an extra-ordinarily subtle creature can hide their intrinsic power or nature, or work magic nearby
(5 miles or so) without being sensed. By climbing to a high place or by concentrating, the Supernaturally Powerful being can
descry things happening far away in other parts of the world, or engage in power contests (usually indecisive) with a distant foe.
Upon concentrating (1 to 2 minutes) they will be aware of all powers in the area. S-lev el Powers can also percieve the invisible
or penetrate magical disgues. The latter requires a contest of power. Two or more supernatural Powers may open themselves
to the minds of others in the same room or area, and hold a silent "conference call" with each other. Gandalf, Elrond and
Galadriel had S-level Power.

Mythic Power is all that Supernatural Power is and more. Even speaking the name of a being with Mythic Power is
dangerous. Sauron had M-level power.


Here we come to the rarest of all abilities, and our main example is Gandalf. Unfortunately, we do not see Gandalf work many
spells in the course of the LOTR and those spells he does cast often seem inconsistant. Therefore, I've had to simplify a bit.
Let's start with what Gandalf can't do:



He can't fly. If he could, he wouldn't have an eagle carting him all over the place. This goes for levitation, too. Or
teleportation. All very un-Gandalf.

He can't burn snow. He says so himself. I take this as a general principle, that he can't do things which a blatantly unnatural
nor sustain a magical operation indefinately. He can, for instance, make a flash of fire, but can't shoot plasma from his fingers
like a flammenwurfer.

He can't communicate over long distances. Indeed, he denies that such a thing is even possible without a Palantir.

So what can one do with Spell-casting?

Illusions

A Spell caster can make himself appear as someone else or to make one object appear as another. Or, as Gandalf does, he
can keep people from recognizing him for who he really is, until he wants.



Enhance Nature

Spellcasters can make any natural process happen very quickly in a very short burst. They can, for instance, make a hot tounge
of flame as Gandalf does. Or make wood rot. Or weaken stone. This goes in reverse, too. He can make a fire go out. Or sto p
a cracking beam. They can also interfere in the processes of a living body. So theyt could put someone to sleep by turning on
their body's natural sleep cycle. Or kill them by stopping thier heart.

The only thing they can't do is make continual chan ges in
the order of nature. As soon as they stop concentrating, the interference will stop. Now, if they've set wood on fire, it will
continue to burn. If they've put someone to sleep, they'll stay sleeping. If they've killed them, they'll stay dead.< P>

Spellcasting
can also inhance the function of any object. A door, for instance, is supposed to shut. So a shutting spell will make it stay shut.
It's also supposed to open. So an opening spell will make it open. A battering-ram is supposed to crush, so an aiding spell will
make it cursh harder.

Make Light

Big deal, you say. But you never have to go without a torch. And you can read in bed.

[Finmandos12]

That sounds like some kind of video game. Why did it sayCharacters with Exceptional power will be able to use freely whatever magical abilites they purchase. Where did you get that afro?

And remember, it is never called magic, but an art.

[afro-elf]

here is an answer to your question with some further reflection on the topic of this thread.

That sounds like some kind of video game. Why did it say

Characters with Exceptional power will be able to use freely whatever magical abilites they purchase


A video game no, but a pen and paper role-playing game yes.

there was a Middle-Earth role playing game by Iron Crown Enterprises Called MERP midde-earth role-playin that is now defunct
( sounds like someone who lost the skill of dancing):)

which i did not care for


mike martinez says this and i agree

For one thing, all role-playing games try to limit magic by imposing restrictions on race and profession. If you're of a certain race, you either cannot use magic or it's very difficult to learn, or else you have to be of a certain profession. But Tolkien's world didn't work that way. Individuals had aptitudes for certain tasks and abilities. Hobbits didn't use magic, except for "the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly" (see "An Unexpected Party" in The Hobbit). But Tolkien doesn't say they couldn't use magic.


In the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings he notes that "Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind". The restriction he imposes is a cultural one, not a genetic racial ability (or disability). Their ability to hide is attributed to "ordinary everyday" magic in one book, and dismissed as a "professional" ability that seems like magic to Men in another book. But nowhere is it stated that Hobbits cannot use magic



Which isn't to say that a role-playing game should encourage people to develop Hobbit-sorcerors who go around casting fireballs. But if the magic system allows people to cast fireball spells, Hobbits shouldn't be excluded from learning how to do such things.


Of course, Tolkien's magic is a mixture of lore and innate abilities. The angelic beings which became the Valar and Maiar (and the Istari were Maiar) were immensely powerful creatures; Tolkien sometimes allowed his characters to refer to them as "gods". But these Ainur were not omnipotent. There were limits to these beings' strengths. They grew weary, and if they took incarnate forms (living bodies, physically biological shapes in which their spirits dwelt) the Ainur could be injured or even killed

Hence, though there is a hint of Sam and Frodo making use of "Elven magic" in Mordor (even invoking Elbereth's name in a prayerful fashion), there is no chance that either could go further and match Gandalf lightning bolt for lightning bolt. It's not entirely clear if the Nazgul could really have cast lightning bolts the way Gandalf seems to have been able to do. But they might, with the aid of Sauron's power, have been able to call lightning from the sky, a natural source of elemenntal power


Tolkien writes that Elven sorcery really didn't differ from Sauron's sorcery, except in intent and effect. That is, they were both working the same kind of magic, but the Elves were interested in artistic applications, whereas Sauron was interested in machinistic applications. Of Men, Tolkien wrote that they couldn't use magic, but then remembered that the Numenoreans made magical swords. And the hill-men of Rhudaur became "a sorcerous people". Sorcery, and even necromancy, were therefore available to men,

So, if the limitations imposed by race and profession are removed, then they must be replaced by other limitations. Otherwise, magic users become too powerful in a gaming system, and everyone wants to play them. I think the best way to represent magic in Tolkien's world is through a combination of learned lore, innate ability, and degree. For example, a Hobbit or a Man should not be able to wield magic to the same degree that an Elf can, and an Elf (except for very rare ones like Feanor or Finrod) should not be able to match a strong Maia or a weakened Vala power-for-power.


Hence, a character can start out as any race and be a craftsman, sorceror, rogue, or fighter. But a fighter should be a soldier in someone's army (or recently discharged). And they should have some level of skill or accomplishment that makes them capable. The emphasis should be on the adventure itself, and not on the advancement of the character. Role-playing games can become so distracted and preoccupied with the need to advance the character to that next level, in order to add more skills and spells to the sheet. Role-playing is not supposed to be about how many spellbooks you've mastered, or how many weaponstyles you can utilize. It should be about the choices you make for your character.



Where did you get that afro?


after about five months without cutting my hair :D

but back to the question, i was surfing the net looking for some better ideas for role-playing ( pen and paper) in tolkien's world than the Iron Crown game system.

I came across three GREAT sites

the one above was search under Amber diceless role-playing for tolkien

the second was incanus games using GURPS ( generic universal role playins system)

the third was an excellent revision of the original system

HOWEVER these sites seem to all be closed now because all the links to them are dead

luckily i have them all saved. IF you OR anyone is interested i can send attachments to anyone who wants them

[Gerbil]

I would say that, interesting though they are, they still seem to be avoiding the 'what Tolkien really meant' angle in favour of the 'makes a workable game' angle.
Which is fair enough, given their source.
But if merely discussing Tolkien's interpretation of magic, they are useful and certainly a starting point for discussion, but I'd not go so far as to say they were accurate.

I am going to have a long hard think about all this before I clarify my own thoughts on this one, 'cos it's tricky.

However, 2 things leap out at me (3 if you include my flat-mate's mad wife :)

1) Looks like Tolkien agrees with one of my comments about him ;) - that of him not being 100% consistent in his own ideas about magic (witch kind of makes it tricky for us to come up with a definite statement really!)

2) Who said Bombadil was Maia? I've heard various things, some of which claim he was Valar / Aule :) Is there some definitive Tolkien based comment on this or is it just most likely conjecture still? :)

gerbil

[Wayfarer]

Very Superficial.

Your metaphysics system is overly subdivided. You simply list things thawt have, in fact, been done, with no thought to the how or the why.

Anyone could have come up with that list by skimming through the lotr/sil. It takes a lot more thought to come up with a cohesive picture of what's behind it.

[afro-elf]

Were you implying that these were my ( orignal) idea's on the subject?

( NOT said in an angry voice)


that was a cut and paste job from some stuff i had i got off the net.


BUT i'll post MY opinions in answer to your post.

There are several post in the andruil thread that deal with this BUT I have not stated much expect stating men could use magic or whatever you wanna call it.

Gandalf stating he knew all the spell in the tongues of elves, men and orc.

and the hill men of Rhuadur sp(?) falling into sorcery.


MY theory on it is like the order of beings philosophies of the medieval times.


The order of being in tolkien being

ERU

the valar

maia

elves ( calaquendi)

the sindar and numenoreans maybe on equal footing( not sure on this one yet)

avari and dwarves

men and hobbits


those closet to eru had the greatest power as sub-creators under him
to impose their will under eru to affect change in the world
and then on down the line

they all have varying degrees of the flame imperishable ( i think that's what it's called)

maybe it is a channelling of ther divine spark that beings use


i'll call the differences ART and CRAFT

Art being the "magical"
TALENT i'll call it. an inborn trait

while craft would be a learned skill, lesser in magnitude than an art


so sauron's duel with finrod would have been a battle of will/art

glorfindel lessening frodo's pain art


art and craft can work together

aragorn had a talent for healing BUT needed the craft of a herbalist to channel it.

galadriel contesting sauron would be art versus art. agumented with her ring.

the men of rhuadur would be using sorcery as a craft and not as an art.

I'm fatigued so I'll close it here for now

i hope that this provides more insight

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Anyone could have come up with that list by skimming through the lotr/sil. It takes a lot more thought to come up with a cohesive picture of what's behind it.
Indeed, this for me is the $64,000 question.
BUT I'm quite convinced there is no actual answer to this.
Certinaly not a cohesive picture. As I mentioned before, I think Tolkien made some mistakes which throw us off the scent.

All this does it to make it more tricky - come up with a cohesive arguement and state which are the red herrings, and WHY :)
Since of course you could come up with any old hairbrained scheme and justify it if you could preclude certain facts.

For example, I am quite convinced (for now :) that 'magic' relates directly to inner power, or spirit, that is broadly defined by a person or species' leanings towards certain 'elements' in the same way many of the Valar are closely associated with such things.

Examples of magic that I think Tolkien put in without really thinking through are such things as Beorn being a shapechanger - it comes from nowhere, doesn't fit in with general magical themes, has no relation to any other act past or present (Beorn's is a physical change, others have done illusory changes except for those of high enough 'rank' (Maia and above) who change change forms according to their will, basically those who are not from ME.

Actually, interesting (to me!) pseudo-thread - what magical examples don't appear to fit in generally, and why?

[Spock]

Did anyone stop to think that magic has its own rules?! Your mortal definition may not hold true in other realms; not to mention other dimentions.:cool:

[Gerbil]

Yes yes very droll.
This board IS about Middle Earth you know.

And having pointy ears does NOT make you an elf, OK?
Flipping Vulcans, they get everywhere... :P

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Examples of magic that I think Tolkien put in without really thinking through are such things as Beorn being a shapechanger - it comes from nowhere, doesn't fit in with general magical themes, has no relation to any other act past or present (Beorn's is a physical change, others have done illusory changes except for those of high enough 'rank' (Maia and above) who change change forms according to their will, basically those who are not from ME. This is interesting. I think that some of Tolkien's characters have magical abilities that are just never mentioned. Finrod for example was very powerful and capable of some very potent magic, which tolkien refers to as art. This shape shifting of Beorn reminds me of an instant that showcases Finrod's power. When Beren and he along with their ten companions came upon the company of Orcs and slew them. Finrod changed their own appearance into the likeness of Orcs. Would this be shapeshifting? What other abilities did Finrod have that was not mentioned. In his dual with Sauron, Tolkien states that his power was very great, but Sauron had the mastery. Yet, did they not both use magic as it were, equally in this song of power? But Finrod loses because Sauron had the mastery. What does that mean?