Is Sam kinda dim? [Archive]

Banazir

10-02-2001, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Then why on earth did you name yourself after him?! What, did you lose a bet or something?

Hee-hee, I knew someone would ask this question. And I knew that my post will infuriate a lot of people. Well, I named myself that because I love the name. I don't have to love the character as well. And I don't think that Sam was stupid because he was too emotional, but rather because he didn't see the obvious things in life, like Gollum's repentence or the fact his master was so traumatized after the war. That doesn't suggest a smart person.
However, my opinions are just opinions, nothing more, and every board I go to, I always draw negative responses because of them.
Oh, well...

arynetrek

10-10-2001, 09:31 PM

Gollum's repentance?

you mean when he joined the hobbits outside of Mordor just so he could steal back His Precious?

and when he found he couldn't do that easily, he lured them to Shelob's Lair?

or when DOES steal back His Precious, along with Frodo's finger, and merely by a twist of fate (or Eru's will...?) he falls into the Crack of Doom to destroy it?

OK, enough sarcasm. sorry. are you talking about the brief scene where he gets the chance to slay the hobbits but doesn't? that's the only "gollum is maybe, almost, not completely twisted" scene i can think of right now.

aryne *

Kirinki54

10-11-2001, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Banazir

And I don't think that Sam was stupid because he was too emotional, but rather because he didn't see the obvious things in life, like Gollum's repentence or the fact his master was so traumatized after the war. That doesn't suggest a smart person.

Maybe Sam had not read the book?

Seriously, Tolkien needed a character like Sam that did not immediately came across as smart, but anyway did the right things and did them very good. An emerging Hero that sees things differently and thus gives new dimensions to the story. He did not crawl for Frodo, and his loyalty was met with enormous trust. And the other two Hobbits (sometimes dimwitted if anyone) treated Sam with respect. Notice how he often gets the last word. Fools seldom do.

Raven Moon

10-11-2001, 12:31 PM

Re-read the whole thing again, my dear. You will soon see (hopefully), that Sam Gamgee is quite probably the most important character in the story, after Gandalf

Ñólendil

10-11-2001, 06:35 PM

Welcome Raven Moon!

I don't think Sam (of the Fellowship) accomplished more than Frodo. I think it would be Gandalf, then perhaps Aragorn & Frodo, then Sam Gamgee.

Banazir

10-11-2001, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Raven Moon
Re-read the whole thing again, my dear. You will soon see (hopefully), that Sam Gamgee is quite probably the most important character in the story, after Gandalf

Oh, my. I agree that Sam is nearly the most important character in the story, but how does that make him smart??

Banazir

10-11-2001, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by arynetrek
Gollum's repentance?

OK, enough sarcasm. sorry. are you talking about the brief scene where he gets the chance to slay the hobbits but doesn't? that's the only "gollum is maybe, almost, not completely twisted" scene i can think of right now.

aryne *

I am talking about the brief, but meaningful scene on the stairs of Cirith-Ungol, where Gollum is clearly having second thoughts regarding his actions; and if it weren't for Sam's idiotic outburst, maybe there would have been no betrayal.

ringbearer

10-11-2001, 10:17 PM

Sam was the first to react when the watcher in the water had Frodo, the men were kind of held by their shock. As I said earlier...Sam has good hobbit sense. I cannot think of any mistakes that Sam made (unlike Pippen and Merry-who made many)! Sam was a farmer/gardener...which takes alot of learning of itself! He was thrust into situations he was never trained for.
I bet he could grow a 'mean crop of 'taters!:D

Ñólendil

10-12-2001, 12:13 AM

He was the only one to react when Frodo was caught by the Watcher. I'm glad you mentioned that, it was an act of courage and love that is very rarely mentioned in LR discussions.

arynetrek

10-12-2001, 12:53 AM

yes, that was the scene i was talking about with that quote. i would have given specifics but i was half-asleep & on heavy antihistamine when i wrote just about everything that night.

aryne *

Banazir

10-14-2001, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by arynetrek
yes, that was the scene i was talking about with that quote. i would have given specifics but i was half-asleep & on heavy antihistamine when i wrote just about everything that night.

aryne *

I just wanted to apologize for being so mean and intolerant, especially on this topic. I see that everybody likes Sam, so I will have to accept that. No hard feelings, OK?

samwise of the shire

10-14-2001, 06:31 PM

I would'nt say he was SIMPLE even just SLOW in the uptake. Dim is not getting a hint and turning your back on the herb stew and letting it burn. No Sam has more sense then Aragorn, he just uses it slower and less effectivly.
And I would suggest you might want to THINK before you post something about a character in LOTR, calling someone Master is NOT a sign of DIMMNESS as you so put it. It's a sign he knows what he's talking about and does'nt want his head punded in.
Sam
ps. I'll be back

Bregalad

10-24-2001, 07:12 PM

I, for one, do not think Samwise is stupid. He is certainly more down to earth than Frodo, less pompous than Borimir, less learned than Gandalf, less elegant than Galadriel, and less woody than Treebeard, but none of that makes him stupid. He is very practical and deals with the world in an uncomplicated manner. He calls Frodo "master" because Frodo is his boss, and that was showing appropriate respect in his culture. But that brings us to an interesting point. Sam is of the working class. As a member of the working class he does something completely unexpected and weird, he learns to read! That simply wasn't done, and the old Gaffer worries about it. Not only does he learn to read, but he hungers for more knowledge especially about the beloved elves. He is also clever enough to spy on Gandalf and Frodo for some time before the day he was caught, not an easy thing to do. And occasionally he says something unexpectedly deep and suprising. About the elves for example:They seem a bit above my likes and dislikes, so to speak. It don't seem to matter what I think about them. They are quite different from what I expected- so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were. That might seem simplistic on the surface, but for someone who has just met the elves it is quite an incisive description. So I say, don't call Samwise stupid just because he doesn't blow his own horn as Borimir does!:p Like all Hobbits there is more to him than meets the eye!

Elessar_elfstone

10-24-2001, 08:08 PM

I kinda agree that Sam is a bit dim... in a sense that he is not one of the well-to-do hobbits like Frodo, Merry or Pippin who come from some renowned hobbit clans and I also find Sam kind of blindly devoted to Frodo, and not loyal, because mainly at the last part of the story from LOTR 3rd book, even after his wife died and his daughter had a family, he still went to the Gray Havens to find Frodo,
shouldn't he be staying in his luxurioius burrow as a well respected mayor with many(most likely) grandchildren to look after proudly?

Bradistic

10-24-2001, 08:09 PM

There are many points in LOTR where Sam does seem a bit slow, but some times he shows a suprising amount of insight. Such as when Frodo tries to ditch the fellowship and go off to Mordor all alone. Who is the only one who figures out where Frodo has gone? Sam did, even though he did have to think it through out loud.

Wayfarer

10-24-2001, 08:50 PM

Actually, I agree about what happened on the steps of Kirith ungol.

But I can't help feeling that, if sam really knew what was going on, he would have reacted quite differently.

Kirinki54

10-25-2001, 11:09 AM

”They rested for some time in the glade, and took their mid-day meal right under the shadow of the trolls' large legs.
'Won't somebody give us a bit of a song, while the sun is high?' said Merry, when they had finished. 'We haven't had a song or a tale for days.'
'Not since Weathertop,' said Frodo. The others looked at him. 'Don't worry about me!' he added. 'I feel much better, but I don't think I could sing. Perhaps Sam could dig something out of his memory.'
'Come on, Sam!' said Merry. 'There's more stored in your head than you let on about.'
'I don't know about that,' said Sam. 'But how would this suit? It ain't what I call proper poetry, if you understand me: just a bit of nonsense. But these old images here brought it to my mind.' Standing up, with his hands behind his back, as if he was at school, he began to sing to an old tune.

Troll sat alone on his seat of stone,
And munched and mumbled a bare old bone;
For many a year he had gnawed it near,
For meat was hard to come by.
Done by! Gum by!
In a case in the hills he dwelt alone,
And meat was hard to come by.

Up came Tom with his big boots on.
Said he to Troll: 'Pray, what is yon?
For it looks like the shin o' my nuncle Tim,
As should be a-lyin' in graveyard.
Caveyard! Paveyard!
This many a year has Tim been gone,
And I thought he were lyin' in graveyard.'

'My lad,' said Troll, 'this bone I stole.
But what be bones that lie in a hole?
Thy nuncle was dead as a lump o' lead,
Afore I found his shinbone.
Tinbone! Thinbone!
He can spare a share for a poor old troll,
For he don't need his shinbone.'

Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!
Rover! Trover!
Though dead he be, it belongs to he;
So hand the old bone over!'

'For a couple o' pins,' says Troll, and grins,
'I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.
A bit o' fresh meal will go down sweet!
I'll try my teeth on thee now.
Hee now! See now!
I'm tired o' gnawing old bones and skins;
I've a mind to dine on thee now.'

But just as he thought his dinner was caught,
He found his hands had hold of naught.
Before he could mind, Tom slipped behind
And gave him the boot to larn him.
Warn him! Darn him!
A bump o' the boot on the seat, Tom thought,
Would be the way to larn him.

But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
Of a troll that sits in the hills alone.
As well set your boot to the mountain's root,
For the seat of a troll don't feel it.
Peel it! Heal it!
Old Troll laughed, when he heard Tom groan,
And he knew his toes could feel it.

Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
And his bootless foot is lasting lame;
But Troll don't care, and he's still there
With the bone he boned from its owner.
Doner! Boner!
Troll's old seat is still the same,
And the bone he boned from its owner!

'Well, that's a warning to us all!' laughed Merry. 'It is as well you used a stick, and not your hand, Strider!'
'Where did you come by that, Sam?' asked Pippin. 'I've never heard those words before.'
Sam muttered something inaudible. 'It's out of his own head, of course,' said Frodo. 'I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on this journey. First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!'
'I hope not,' said Sam. 'I don't want to be neither!'"

Sam is a poet!
And he know it!
:D

Wayfarer

10-25-2001, 03:45 PM

Dylan, are you being schizophrenic again?

Or have you finally infected others with the insidious overposting bug?

Maybe if I start calling you 'Rebecca' MEO will come out sooner, eh?

Kirinki54

10-26-2001, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Dylan, are you being schizophrenic again?

Or have you finally infected others with the insidious overposting bug?

Maybe if I start calling you 'Rebecca' MEO will come out sooner, eh?

If this is a reference to my post above, I would like to inform you dear Sir/Lady, that
1) I have no knowledge of any of the persons you mention, and
2) I think quotes of moderate size are permitted when they add something to the discussion.

If not, frankly I fail to understand your post at all. Anyway, it does not seem to concern Sam´s qualities.

ArwenEvenstar

10-26-2001, 07:15 PM

sam reminds me of my dad (don't ask) good at gardening, cooking. devoted, a little horazontally challegened, dosen't mind traviling... smarter then he looks...

(well what else does a 12-year-old do on a long weekend when her best friends away????????????????)

On Sam being dim he's just a devoted person who would follow his master down a dragon's throat if he didn'y trip on his feet on the way down, no wait that's merry/pippin calling him simple (can't remember which one don't have FOTR with me...) He's just a kind loving person/hobbit who would lay his life on the line for someone elses. With a little someting special in that curly head of his!

Can't you monsters leave poor Sam alone:( :(

Ñólendil

10-26-2001, 10:32 PM

Kirinki, Wayfarer was addressing me. My name is Dylan. He thought I was you. Anyway he made a lot of inside jokes.

So yes Wayfarer, I have infected others with the bug. As for 'Rebecca', I haven't changed my name yet, but I am moving in with Danner soon.

Kirinki54

10-27-2001, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by Inoldonil
He thought I was you. Anyway he made a lot of inside jokes.

Well, should I take that as a compliment or what? :D

Goes to show that jokes sometimes become a tad TOO insidious...

ArwenEvenstar

10-27-2001, 04:56 PM

What are you people talking about???

Tessar

10-31-2001, 11:22 AM

Ok! yesh!

I was just ASKING!!!!!!!!

Wayfarer

10-31-2001, 01:57 PM

Kirinki:

On the Middle Earth Vault (http://mevault.ign.com) Boards (http://vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=5043) , Inoldonil (Dylan Standlea) is known as Ranadwelt (http://vnboards.ign.com/user.asp?usr=10602), and is famous for two things: Posting Whole passages from the Lotr, Silmarillion and HoME, and his usage of various handles (mellon o' gwae, Eva e eldar, whitetrash).

You posted a rather sizeable passage, and so I joked that perhaps you were one of his 'other selves'.

The rebecca comment was from this thread (http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=18213172&replies=14) (#4)

Insidious humour indeed, watson. ]:) <-mad Cow

Kirinki54

10-31-2001, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Wayfarer

You posted a rather sizeable passage, and so I joked that perhaps you were one of his 'other selves'.

Well whaddaya know?!
Never dreamed such alternate universe existed so close to Entmoot.
Having research your links, Sherlock, you do come out clean.

PS This is written by one of my own 'other selves'.
:p

samwise of the shire

10-31-2001, 06:05 PM

Hey wait a minute Ellesar, he just did'nt go off to find Frodo, did'nt Frodo say that it was'nt Sams time to go to the Havens?So that meant he would go but NOT at the same time as his master. Actually if I could go back to the original post, It was NOT Sam who was sick or pathetic, he was doing it out of respect and recognition of who was in control, it was Gollum who was the fawning dog, when he said master it was out of kissing up and putting on a show so he could get the Ring.

Wayfarer

10-31-2001, 06:20 PM

I was always of the impression that Sam went to the havens to be ehald of the ring's influence... He went later because he hadn't held it as long.

Ñólendil

10-31-2001, 06:28 PM

Arato-eva-Aldar, not 'Eva e Eldar'. Note, folks, that 'whitetrash' was a practical joke.

Kirinki54

11-01-2001, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I was always of the impression that Sam went to the havens to be ehald of the ring's influence... He went later because he hadn't held it as long.

My impression too. He went later because his need was less immediate.
Also he was in the process of forming a family and taking care of Shire business. Not so Frodo, who had ended up sort of outside everyday existence. So Sam could wait a while until he was old and Rose gone.
Perhaps Galadriel´s power also gave Sam extra strength to wait until then?

Niphredoodah

11-03-2001, 08:22 AM

And I don't think that Sam was stupid because he was too emotional, but rather because he didn't see the obvious things in life, like Gollum's repentence or the fact his master was so traumatized after the war. That doesn't suggest a smart person.

I think Sam probably did VAGUELY understand that Frodo was traumatised, but not how much. The idea that Frodo was permanently damaged was probably so awful that he didn't WANT to believe it. He thought Frodo would enjoy the Shire for years to come, because that was what he wanted and hoped.

Also, Frodo was psychologically traumatised, not just by memories of horror and abuse, but also wracked with guilt and self-reproach for claiming the ring at the last. I'm not sure Sam ever realised this, since I don't think it ever entered his head to blame Frodo for what he did or didn't do at Mount Doom, or to think that anyone else would, Frodo included. Maybe he only came to understand this at the Havens, or as he stood listening to the waves and the sound "sank deep into his heart", as he pondered Frodo's last words. " ... all that I had and might have had ..."

Kirinki54

11-03-2001, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Niphredoodah
I think Sam probably did VAGUELY understand that Frodo was traumatised, but not how much.

I agree with your post, a lot of common sense.

Sam had hoped for Frodo to settle in the Shire once the mission was completed. Of course Sam was no shrink, so it only gradually dawned on him the size of Frodo´s burden. Nothing dimwitted about that.

Agburanar

11-09-2001, 06:30 AM

I was very upset to read Games Workshop's new 'Fellowship of the Ring' game and learn that Frodo has more courage than Sam. I think Sam is much braver than Frodo:
He offers several times to carry the ring,
He goes to Mordor although he has a choice, Frodo doesn't get to choose,
Right from the start he sticks with Frodo. The time he's caught listening by Gandalf was the end of his 'spying' for the conspiracy. It was not the thought of elves that made him want to go.

Niphredoodah

11-12-2001, 08:04 PM

I don't personally think that Sam has more courage than Frodo, just courage of a different kind. Frodo's is internal and understated, and he does not have the opportunity to be the kind of hero which Sam evolves into. It does not mean that he lacks the courage, though.

I in my turn get very upset with essays/articles/whatever that write Frodo off as a wimp. ;)

Kirinki54

11-13-2001, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Niphredoodah
I in my turn get very upset with essays/articles/whatever that write Frodo off as a wimp. ;)

As well you should! :)

IMO it is rather meaningless to compare Frodo and Sam in this way. Both were great and couragious Hobbits in their own way, and their characters were vastly different. Simple as that.

Darkside Spirit

11-16-2001, 04:44 PM

Sam is indeed pretty dim, but it's his loyalty that really comes out. At the start of the story I thought he'd be a soppy, grovelling, stupid character who'd ruin the entire saga, but by about the end of Book 1 I realised his significance.

Some people like him and some people don't. I'm not particularly keen on him as a character, but like Tolkien says in the second edition foreword, it's impossible to please everybody all of the time, especially in such a huge work.

Bacchus

11-17-2001, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by ringbearer
Sam was the first to react when the watcher in the water had Frodo, the men were kind of held by their shock. As I said earlier...Sam has good hobbit sense. I cannot think of any mistakes that Sam made (unlike Pippen and Merry-who made many)! Sam was a farmer/gardener...which takes alot of learning of itself! He was thrust into situations he was never trained for.
I bet he could grow a 'mean crop of 'taters!:D

Well, there was the reaction on the Stairs. Tolkien called it one of the most important scenes in the book. Had it played out differently, the entire focus of the book would have shifted from Frodo to Gollum (Letter 246).

Knocking himself out against the undergate of Cirith Ungol wasn't the brightest action in the world, nor was trying to leap into the boat at Parth Galen. Letting Shagrat escape the Tower was also disastrous.

If Sam had been in charge, the hobbits would not have taken up with Strider in Bree.

His heart was in the right place, but he quite simply wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

TrewynEvenstar

12-09-2001, 11:42 AM

IMHO, Sam is the coolest character in the book! I definatly agree with the people who are saying he has Hobbit snese, that he does. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could say Sam is "stupid" or "dull," as he is the one who really makes things work in the end. Without Sam, Frodo would never have finished the quest, and Sauron would have taken won.

Howver, I agree with whoever said not to form an opinion untill you've read ROTK. It's very true. Untill ROTK, I saw Sam as the comic relife of the book, and maybe a little slow. BUt ROTK shows us his extreme loyalty, bravery, persistance, and cunning, to some degree. Sam is most certainly NOT stupid.

Just my few cents.

Agburanar

12-09-2001, 03:54 PM

Actually I'm rereading the LotR at the moment and Sam's not that dim. Not Intellectual but theres a whole lotta common sense and poeple skill!

webwizard333

12-09-2001, 06:01 PM

To make an analogy, if Sam went to Hogwarts he'd be in Gryffindor or Hufflepuff. He's brave and a hard worke, but don't underestimate him, he has a lot of common sense and is rather bright.

Agburanar

12-10-2001, 05:36 PM

Part of his common sense is because he's not intelligent. When Frodo goes missing Aragorn uses his 'intelligence' to try and scour the hillside for Frodo's tracks. Sam knows his master well enough and has picked up on his emotions so that he knows where Frodo will be without tracking him.

Bregalad

12-10-2001, 09:52 PM

Eeeeeeek! Since when is common sense not intelligence, or worse, a symptom of lack of intellegence??? I simply must disagree with you there, Agburanar! I have met quite a lot of dim-witted folks with no "common sense" whatsoever. And I have also met extremely intellegent people who also had no "common sense". Actually, common sense isn't all that common. It's the seemingly simple ability to think your way out of a paper bag, and there's droves of educated folks out there who can't manage that. I believe that Sam actually showed some greatness of mind when he stopped to use his head to find Frodo on the atoll instead of racing about willy-nilly like everyone else did, including our intellegent Aragorn. A lesser mind would have just assumed that the heroic Aragorn knew what he was about, and followed him blindly. Sam had the uncommon sense to use his own brain, and take into acount his own knowledge about his friend. Don't put common sense down because it isn't as fancy as having a lot of showy degrees to your credit.

Kirinki54

12-11-2001, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Bacchus
His heart was in the right place, but he quite simply wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Sam was not the only one to make mistakes. Some of the more heroic characters were far from immune themselves to that. Frodo and Sam accomplished their mission (thanks to Gollum) and that speaks a lot for Sam´s capabilities.
By making errors, speaking out, expressing doubts, and so on, Sam is simply one of the most multi-dimensionally drawn characters of the book. He adds life to the narrative. We can´t judge him a fool because of that.
IMHO.

Bacchus

12-12-2001, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Kirinki54

Sam was not the only one to make mistakes. Some of the more heroic characters were far from immune themselves to that. Frodo and Sam accomplished their mission (thanks to Gollum) and that speaks a lot for Sam´s capabilities.
By making errors, speaking out, expressing doubts, and so on, Sam is simply one of the most multi-dimensionally drawn characters of the book. He adds life to the narrative. We can´t judge him a fool because of that.
IMHO.

I never claimed that he was the only one to make errors. I also agree that Sam was instrumental to the ultimate success of the Quest, and that he is probably the most developed of the characters. This, however, does not change the fact that he just wasn't very bright. He did intuit Frodo's course of action at Parth Galen, and I give him credit for that. He also posessed the presence of mind to take the Ring at Torech Ungol, and I give him credit for that. On balance, however, I just don't see him as overly intelligent.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sam. He just isn't the one I'd go to for advice on technical issues. Moral issues would be another question entirely.

Ñólendil

12-13-2001, 12:47 AM

Nor would he be the ideal person to ask for directions, unless you're five miles from Bag End.

Celeborn

12-13-2001, 11:13 AM

I think that sam went over to the Grey Havens because he still felt that he must trake after his master Mr. Frodo, I am inclined to agree that sam was not dumb in any way, maybe a better word would be out of his element. (gardening)

Agburanar

12-13-2001, 02:02 PM

Bregalad, I didn't mean you cant have intelligence as well as common sense, its just difficult sometimes to know which to use and Sam doesnt have a choice most of the time! If Sam was in any kind of office he'd be PR officer pretty quick!

Play Girl

12-13-2001, 02:20 PM

Well not being the sharpest knife in the drawer I can relate to Sam a bit but I must say that Sam has much more common sense than the rest of the Fellowship - apart form maby Gandalf - and a good deal more intellegence than that fool of a Took.
Play Girl
xxx

PS No offence to all pipin fans out there

Kirinki54

12-13-2001, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Bacchus
Don't get me wrong, I like Sam. He just isn't the one I'd go to for advice on technical issues. Moral issues would be another question entirely.

Bacchus, I respect your opinion. But IMHO the last part of your post (quoted) might as well prove that he had MORE intelligence than many others! ;)

mirrille

12-13-2001, 06:24 PM

I'm not so sure. As with everything, that depends on how you define intellect. But wouldn't his higher morality be more of an indication that he has more heart or empathy, as opposed to hard intellect?

As for what I think of Sam, he is maybe a bit naive in some ways, but he's not stupid. He's one of the more practical characters. Very down-to-earth. I almost expect if you gave him a fancy moral question, he'd give you a practical answer.

Thorondor

12-13-2001, 08:25 PM

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the name "Samwise" means "half-wise" (from old english, I believe). Note that he is not described as "dull", "stupid" or even, "slow". He is half-wise (which is more-wise than most). Sam is not clever, but he has more than his share of "Hobbit sense" as Gandalf and others in this thread have pointed out, and in some things he is especially gifted and "wise".

Note also that the great leaders who collect at Elrond's call themselves "The Wise". They say at the council that "none of The Wise can accomplish the quest" (or words to that effect). It's up to the half-wise and the half-sized to do the job. When the hobbots first meet elves in the woods of the shire, Sam is told to stick by Frodo. Those elves recognized, as did Elrond and Gandalf, that Sam's good sense and loyalty was exactly what was needed.

Wayfarer

12-14-2001, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Thorondor
It's up to the half-wise and the half-sized to do the job.

Exactly. :D

KGamgee

12-22-2001, 08:20 PM

How dare any of you say that Sam is "dim" "stupid" and "slow." Without him, Frodo could never have made it to Mordor and the Cracks of Doom. Thank you to the people who stuck up for him, he deserves it!:) GO SAM!

RDBGOLLUM

12-23-2001, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Nor would he be the ideal person to ask for directions, unless you're five miles from Bag End.

I would like u 2 realize that in the book on page 100 it clearly points out that

"Sam knew the land well within twenty miles of Hobbiton, but that was the limit of his geography."

Sorry for posting such a small deatail but small deatails r wut make the world of LOTR more interesting. On the entire subject matter or sam being ignorant i feel that that is a misconception only brought about by less enthuistastic readers sam although it seems at first to be a lil dim witted :confused: turns out to be one of the main characters in the lotr. I also wood like to bring to ur attention that Sam always seems to think all of his actions out. Unlike other characters such as Peregrin, Merry, or even Bilbo. This characteristic about him reminds me strongly of those of the wise such as Gandalf and elrond.

CardenIAntauraNauco

12-24-2001, 12:14 AM

So you think that sam should have woken up seen the slimy wretched gollum and immediatetly have Picked up on the fact that he was feeling remorse??!!

Remember that gollum's ability to show facial expressions, esspecialy those of remorse and compassion,would be limited since he hasn't had alot of practice in the last couple centuries or so....

Sams ability to pick up on that would be EXTREMELY HAMPERED!!

His reaction was one of loyalty...

You feel it's stupid because you had the privelige of knowing the intentions of gollum. To err because you are called to make an important descision in a fraction of a second..and in addition do not have all the information to do so..is not to err greatly.

And I do not think anyone should be judged on that single Error

Do you also think Gandalf was dim-witted for going to sarumans
Probably not... Because he did not know that saruman's intentions were evil, in the sameway sam could not know that gollum's intentions were good

:mad:

crow

12-26-2001, 11:47 PM

Dim? Never. His name (Samwise = half-wise = simply, dim) is misleading. His mode of speech might make him sound less than intelligent, but it's just a question of lack of extensive formal education. I think that he's actually quite wise; not elf-lord-wise or king-wise or wizard-wise. Someone said something about hobbit sense: it's that plus something extra. Samfast Gamgee goes far and does great things. Helps save Middle Earth from Sauron's domination in fact (oops, spoiler! well you didn't really think Sauron would win out in the end, did you?). You don't manage that by being a nitwit. But finish reading the Trilogy and form your own opinion.

KGamgee

12-27-2001, 09:43 PM

Thanks to everyone who defended Sam. Whoever mentioned Sam thinking out his thoughts, you are EXACTLY right. He takes a while, but once he thinks about it, he is one of the wisest there is :D . It mentioned somewhere in the Two Towers that Sam has a slow but shrewd mind. I think that sums it up.

KGamgee

12-29-2001, 08:09 PM

I'm sorta responding to myself, but oh well.

Has anyone ever taken the time to read Sam's Song carefully?
If you have, you would realize that it is a really good song, not something a dim person would write.

Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep
beyond all towers strong and high
Beyond all mountains steep
Above all shadows rides the sun
And stars forever dwell
I will not say the day is done
nor bid the song farewell

That is really deep, not something written by a stupid dim person.

Frodo'sGirl

12-29-2001, 10:13 PM

Sam is not dim or stupid he is so sweet and so devoted I love him
almost as much as i love frodo but no in the same way =) He is so kind and emotional.

ozzie2000

12-30-2001, 02:06 AM

Yes, Sam is simple. Hobbits have a simple strength. They do not aspire to fame or power. Sam typifies the average Hobbit's love of simple things like a garden and a pipe. Yet this does not make him dim or stupid. It gives him the wisdom of innocence in a world of greed and oppression. The heros in LotR are those who refuse power that can be used to enslave others but actually enslaves the self. Hobbits are the heros that can bear best the temptation of power. We should all aspire to the wisdom of Sam.

Play Girl

12-30-2001, 07:16 AM

I would just like to ask does anyone in this forum actually dislike Sam or think he is stupid, slow or dim witted. I certainly don't but I think we have found the one thing that everyone agrees on about Tolkens book apart form the fact it is a work of genius!
Sam is by far the best character and definatly one of the heros as in all ture adventures in the end he gets the girl!
Play Girl
xxx

KGamgee

01-01-2002, 09:19 PM

I love you Play Girl!!!!
Just kidding, I really don't. But I totally agree with you
Sam is the real hero in the Lord of the Rings!
And he gets the girl, and unfortunatley it isn't me.
I think he and Rosie are so cute together!

Agburanar

01-02-2002, 04:33 PM

aargh! This is turning into a girly chat room! I agree Sam is great, smart when he thinks about it, loyal, lucky etc. but he has to put up with a lot of depressing stuff and he deserves it!

Banazir

01-02-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Agburanar
aargh! This is turning into a girly chat room! I agree Sam is great, smart when he thinks about it, loyal, lucky etc. but he has to put up with a lot of depressing stuff and he deserves it!

I agree that he deserves it, but what kind of depressing stuff do you mean exactly? In Mordor, or something else?

Play Girl

01-03-2002, 02:32 PM

also all of Sams wishes come true form Frodo still being alive and finding water in Mordor to the minstral singing about Frodo of nine fingers and the ring of doom to finding Bill again!#
One lucky hobbit me thinks
Play Girl
xxx

ChildofEru

01-03-2002, 09:27 PM

if by dumb you mean in the knowledge of spirtual things (valar etc.), or of math or any thing we would call smart nowadays, then no ofcouse not!!!
but he is smart in most of the things we have lost, honor, loyalty, and devotion. we should take a lesson from samwise in these traits.

KGamgee

01-05-2002, 01:56 PM

What do you mean he deserves all that depressing stuff.
Sorry if I'm being to GIRLY for you.
:D
~KGamgee~

Agburanar

01-06-2002, 03:24 PM

Has to put up with a lot, not being able to say anything about the ring when it's plainly hard for him, letting Frodo sleep and eat without taking any himself, that's gotta be hard.

Bregalad

01-07-2002, 01:43 AM

It's very true that Sam made many sacrifices for love of his friend and out of duty to the quest, but I don't think that is what he found depressing. Sam is a "do-er". He will always do what he thinks is right and though he might complain occasionally I don't think he finds these sacrifices too much to ask. He simply does what needs to be done. I do think Mordor itself is very depressing to the Hobbits, not that anyone likes Mordor, mind you!:D But Hobbits especially are not made for brave quests through desolate (and foodless!) suroundings. Hobbits aren't whimps, they can be very tough when backed into a corner, but by nature they are care-free, merry little things that don't wish to face any trouble worse than a bare larder! That is why it is so easy in the last book, for the men to take over Hobbiton. They just don't take well to action and adventure. But deep inside they are tough little buggers, and that is why they so easily kick the men out of the shire when our band of four returns. They just needed someone to lead them and start them moving. They are a little like Ents that way. It doesn't seem strange to me that Merry and Pippin got along with Treebeard so well. For two races that seem so vastly different, they have some striking things in common.

bropous

01-07-2002, 12:03 PM

What the hey, I'll wade in here.

Sam is not stupid, nor slow, nor dim-witted, no matter what his Gaffer kept telling him. Sam had good common sense, quick reactions in a pinch, and kept his head in dangerous and confusing situations. He may have made mistakes here and there, but Samwise Gamgee was very sensible and in the end made good decisions and was an irreplacable member of the Fellowship.

I take issue with the comments that he ruined Gollum's chance for redemtion at the pass of Cirith Ungol. Gollum was torn internally, true, but in the end, "Stinker" was going to win out over "slinker" because of the power of the Ring. Look at Frodo: HE treated Gollum with kindness and understanding, and what did he get? Ended up being Frodo of the Nine Fingers, traumatized for life, attacked and maimed by the very one to whom he extended the hand of friendship.

Sam dealt with Gollum the correct way, and that showed his common sense and good judgement. This in no way the action of a stupid individual.

Banazir

01-07-2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by bropous
Look at Frodo: HE treated Gollum with kindness and understanding, and what did he get? Ended up being Frodo of the Nine Fingers, traumatized for life, attacked and maimed by the very one to whom he extended the hand of friendship.

I'm sorry, but I just can't keep silent on this one: all of the above happened to Frodo BECAUSE Sam had turned Gollum away from the very first step of his redemption path. Sam ruined everything that Frodo had achieved with his kindness, for God's sake.
You can all speculate that Sam is such a smart person etc..., but too bad some people choose to ignore or dismiss his obvious flaws, which *were* there.

bropous

01-07-2002, 01:06 PM

"...all of the above happened to Frodo BECAUSE Sam had turned Gollum away from the very first step of his redemption path. Sam ruined everything that Frodo had achieved with his kindness, for God's sake."

Absolutely baseless, Banazir. Had Sam bent over and kissed Gollum's slimy, bony hiney on a daily basis and caught fish for him and tucked him in at night and sent him birthday cards and bought him beer, Gollum STILL would have reacted the way he did at the Cracks of Doom.

Gollum was perpetually consumed by the thought of and lust for the Ring, His Precious, and in no way would he EVER have allowed Frodo to destroy it without a fight. Gollum had been twisted and warped for hundreds of years, and though the Smeagol side popped up from time to time, his heartfelt and sole goal was to lead Frodo into a trap so he could abscond with the One Ring and get it away from Sauron.

Had Sam been his best buddy, and been the emodiment of Albert Einstein and Albert Schweitzer wrapped in one, Gollum would STILL have led the two hobbits into Shelob's lair, to have her kill them so he could get the Ring. I think that, perhaps, and I say this in a respectful and friendly manner, you may have missed some of the nuances in Gollum's character in your reading of LotR. Sam in no way CAUSED any of Gollum's nastier actions; in fact, he actually held some of Gollum's probable activities at bay by showing he was watchful and would fight like hell to keep Gollum from getting to Frodo.

No denying it, Sam treated Gollum with suspicion and revulsion, and Gollum hated that, and hated him, but he hated AND loved the Ring far greater, and for that matter, the current bearer of said Ring. However, no matter how much "Slinker" would come to fore from time to time, "Stinker" held the mastery over the twisted Stoor's soul. THAT is why he attacked Frodo at the Cracks of Doom, NOT because Sam was a meanie, nor "dim", which he was not.

KGamgee

01-07-2002, 01:30 PM

Good point. Both are hard to get going, but when they do, they kick butt! :D
I like Sam for the reason you pointed out. He does what has to be done, whether he wants to or not, and that is a ver good quality.

bropous

01-07-2002, 01:46 PM

Agreed wholeheartedly, KGamgee.

CardenIAntauraNauco

01-07-2002, 11:45 PM

I'm sorry, but I just can't keep silent on this one: all of the above happened to Frodo BECAUSE Sam had turned Gollum away from the very first step of his redemption path. Sam ruined everything that Frodo had achieved with his kindness, for God's sake.

Why don't you put these allegedly ignored flaws in list form. Just make a simple list, each point of the list telling one flaw. Then we might have a chance for a decent argument against someone who chooses to ignore others logic by posting that we did not confront the problems instead of countering the defenses we did provide.

bropous

01-08-2002, 12:46 AM

Oooo, Carden, you go, girl!

Agburanar

01-08-2002, 05:05 AM

Frodo and Sam are the greatest 2 hobbit team in the book, close to being the greatest 2 character team, but Legolas and Gimli beat them there I feel.

KGamgee

01-09-2002, 09:32 PM

Sorry, but I gotta go with Frodo and Sam for both.

bropous

01-10-2002, 02:08 PM

I must agree with my good friend KGamgee. Frodo and Samwise are the greatest, strongest and most important 2-character team in the LotR.

Banazir

01-10-2002, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by bropous
Had Sam bent over and kissed Gollum's slimy, bony hiney on a daily basis and caught fish for him and tucked him in at night and sent him birthday cards and bought him beer, Gollum STILL would have reacted the way he did at the Cracks of Doom.
I think that, perhaps, and I say this in a respectful and friendly manner, you may have missed some of the nuances in Gollum's character in your reading of LotR.

I will not disregard your argument, and most likely I did miss some of the nuances when reading the book. But I was basing my opinion on the fact that Tolkien himself stated in his letters that Gollum was going to change his behavior out of love for Frodo, and had Sam not stopped him from repenting, Gollum would have thrown himself willingly into the Cracks of Doom in the end, to help Frodo. It's all there in the letters.

As for the flaws I find in Sam, I'm just being subjective here; I see why everyone likes him, but I can't help being annoyed by him, as he is:
*naive
*slow and timid
*too obedient and dependant
*can't control himself
*ignorant
*rustic to the extreme
*possessive (of Frodo)

These are just the main flaws I can think of, and again, that's my personal impresssion of the character, I'm aware of the fact nobody shares it.

CardenIAntauraNauco

01-10-2002, 08:12 PM

All right could you please give me some reasons you think that? (Preferably direct quotations from book)

Wayfarer

01-10-2002, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Banazir
As for the flaws I find in Sam, I'm just being subjective here; I see why everyone likes him, but I can't help being annoyed by him, as he is:
*naive
*slow and timid
*too obedient and dependant
*can't control himself
*ignorant
*rustic to the extreme
*possessive (of Frodo)

These are just the main flaws I can think of, and again, that's my personal impresssion of the character, I'm aware of the fact nobody shares it.

Let's look at this, shall we:

Originally posted by Banazir
*naive

I really don't think so. Notice in the chapter 'Strider' how he's ready to fight and kill this strange ranger of hte wild. Notice how he's quick to distrust Smeagol/Gollum, and in fact makes frodo look a touch naive in comparison.

Originally posted by Banazir
*slow and timid

The Watcher in the Water Scene. The Chamber of Marzabul scene. Shelob. Shelob. The Tower of Cirith Ungol. Shelob. He fights Gollum at least twice. Shelob... Shelob... Have I mentioned Shelob?

The kind of guy who'se willing to jump down a dragon's throat, all in all.

Originally posted by Banazir
*too obedient and dependant

I wouldn't say that. He certainly does take a subservient role, and sometimes tries to do more than his share, but he seems to do fine (if that can be said) when he thinks frodo is 'dead'.
He was strong enough on his own.

Originally posted by Banazir
*can't control himself

I have no Idea where this comes from.

Originally posted by Banazir
*ignorant

He was, in fact, one of the most intelligent hobbits in the shire. He was very likely more knowlegeable than either merry or pippen, having been tutored by Bilbo Baggins himself.

He was also inquisitive, and eager to learn, and he showed an amazing ability to reach sensible conclusion (as about elves, for example)

Originally posted by Banazir
*rustic to the extreme

Not quite extreme. Indeed, no more than most hobbits, and a great deal less than some. He came from an agricultural race and society, after all.

Originally posted by Banazir
*possessive (of Frodo)

Once again... i fail to see that at all. Certainly he was very protective, as is evidenced time and time again, but not at all posessive.

All in all... I surmise that you formed these opinions through a cursory reading of the books... at first blush, so to speak.

KGamgee

01-10-2002, 09:08 PM

Thanks Wayfarer. ( I think I know who this is.....):D :D
I totally agree with you and bropous. As for Banazir, well you have your opinions.

Wayfarer

01-10-2002, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by KGamgee
Thanks Wayfarer. (I think I know who this is)

Ok... Who am I? ]: )

Sister Golden Hair

01-10-2002, 10:11 PM

Perhaps Banazir"s reference to Sam not being able to control himself is coming from the Council of Elrond. He was there but was not supposed to be IIRC. As for the rest, I must disagree. Some get the impression that Sam was slow and dim because he was of the lower class in Hobbit society, and a working Hobbit for sure. He grew up in Bagshot Row, and was a gardener for a wealthy family, which he surely benefited from in education and lore. I agree with Wayfare, Sam was loyal and protective of Frodo, not possessive. Not stupid. Not ignorant.

bropous

01-11-2002, 11:45 AM

Agreed, Sister golden hair. Sam loved Frodo [in a NORMAL way, folks, sheesh], was extremely loyal, and cared about what happened to "his master". Plus, though he may not be bright enough to do "physchological experrimints" [LOL], he was clever enough to know what was important, had the guts to go with Frodo to the Cracks of Doom, and had the strength of character to resist the lure of the One Ring.

KGamgee

01-12-2002, 07:09 PM

"Sam loved Frodo [in a NORMAL way, folks, sheesh"

I agree bropous (I probably spelled that wrong.)
If anyone thinks Sam is gay and dim, I'm going to get ticked off.

bropous

01-13-2002, 01:13 AM

Spelled it perfectly, KGamgee! Good on ya, and I agree wholeheartedly with your comments re: Samwise.

luinilwen

01-13-2002, 03:30 AM

just to put in my two cents, i think that there are credible arguements on both sides (don't groan i'm not usually a fence sitter!)

firstly i agree with most of the statements made in favour of sam, that he is loyal and sensible and shows strength of character in resisting the ring yadda yadda yadda.

however sam also shows negative qualities (don't all the characters perhaps with the exception of elves?) and this "can't control himself" idea is manifested in his attendance at the council of elrond, eavesdropping (or "conspiring") on frodo and gandalf and also his interjection during faramir's "ultimatum". however considering this, i think it goes completely against the ideas of sam being "slow" and "ignorant", and more that he is protective of frodo (but what's wrong with that? it's his job - just ask gandalf!) and furthermore that he is a hasty hobbit (as the ents would say). :)

Sister Golden Hair

01-13-2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by luinilwen

however sam also shows negative qualities (don't all the characters perhaps with the exception of elves?) Well, I wouldn't say that Elves were the exception. Look at the temper tantrum Legolas had when they blindfolded him as they were going to Lothlorien.

bropous

01-13-2002, 12:42 PM

Well, now that I'm reading "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", I am finding out a LOT more about what the Master himself thought on many aspects of his creations.

The name "Samwise" is Old English for "Half-wit." As a professor of, and being fluent in, Old English, Tolkien obviously meant to at least make the intimation that, regardless of my prior assertions, Sam may very well BE dim. He toyed with the idea of later on changing Samwise's name, but stuck to it. However, as the "tale grew in the telling", Tolkien had not completely fleshed out Sam's total character when he started writing the Lord of the Rings, and Sam sort of evolved as the story went along. Hence, although he may have started out with the intent of Sam just being a bumbling fool, however loyal, Samwise must have changed even John Ronald's mind as to his full wits as the two of them reached Cirith Ungol.

Dim, possibly, but so many other good qualities are there that Samwise shows finally a brand of wisdom few ever achieve.

An aisde: "Hamfast", Sam's father, "the Gaffer." "Hamfast" is Old English for "Stayathome."

bropous

01-13-2002, 12:52 PM

Whoops, I meant to address this issue in the prior post:

As for the "lack of negative qualities in the Elves", I am sorry, but this does not hold up. Thranduil, the King of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood, certainly was greedy, resentful of the Dwarves, and threw them into prison.

The Silmarillion is LACED with the negative qualities of Elves: Proud, boastful, arrogant, hotheaded, greedy, violent against their own kin, treacherous, judgmental, unyielding, mistrustful, stubborn, wasteful, and ungrateful, just to name a few. Now, not ALL Elves had these qualities, but Feanor himself embodies every last one of these negative qualities, as did the majority of his brothers. Even Galadriel, sister of Finrod Felagund, left the shores of Valinor to follow the Exiles because she wanted her own "queendom" to rule over others. Tolkien himself despised the quality of the lust for power over others, and the only "rightful" ruler, he thought, was one who would have turned down the offer of a crown or governance over others.

As for LotR, those Elves who were headed West to the Grey Havens to get away from Sauron and the current troubles of Middle-Earth were totally lacking in one VERY good quality, altruism. They were more than content to let Sauron win all of Middle-Earth, no matter how many of their kin were slaughtered in the process. Hence, the Elves did very well exhibit many negative qualities throughout all of the Master's writings. They are flawed, as are all of the races of Middle-Earth.

CardenIAntauraNauco

01-13-2002, 03:15 PM

Feanor....Feanor had A LOT of negative traits.

KGamgee

01-13-2002, 07:34 PM

You have a point, but Sam went to the Council to make sure that Frodo was going to be okay....he was just filling his job requirements. :) He eavedropped, thats true, but its a good thing he did. Frodo wouldn't have done to well all by himself. And he may be hasty at times, but no more than anyone else.

luinilwen

01-13-2002, 09:54 PM

ok ok elves are flawed! but i bet you would have a "temper tantrum" (though i would hardly call it that) if your own kindred were to blindfold you... but i concede to all arguments - elves are flawed (as much as i would like to believe that they are not :D)

Sister Golden Hair

01-13-2002, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by luinilwen
ok ok elves are flawed! but i bet you would have a "temper tantrum" (though i would hardly call it that) if your own kindred were to blindfold you... but i concede to all arguments - elves are flawed (as much as i would like to believe that they are not :D) OK, we won't call it a temper tantrum. We'll call it a "plague on the stiff necks of Elves":)

bropous

01-13-2002, 10:19 PM

Or, perhaps, "elvish apologism"?

Hmph! Bet she has "dwarvish sympathies....."

*wink* luinilwen! good on ya....

samwise

01-16-2002, 09:40 PM

Does Sam seem "sick" or "dim"?

I would disagree in the strongest sense!

The Shire had a medieval-type society with "gentlehobbits" (like Bilbo) and the moneyed families like the Tooks and Brandybucks, and the working class (servants) like the Gamgees.

Sam was a servant, and the servants were not social equals. That is why Sam and Frodo's relationship begins as servant and master (not because Sam is "fawning" over Frodo.)

I, for one, think that Sam is one of the noblest characters in the novel. I think that with the character of Sam Tolkien illustrated that social class is irrelevant, it is the individual that matters. This is why Sam becomes Mayor of Hobbiton and is the leader of the Shire for decade after decade, even though he came from simple stock.

As for sexual orientation.... references are made to Sam's interest in Rosie before returns to the Shire, and as soon as he returns he gets married! I have no idea where that train of thought even comes from!

Arathorn

01-16-2002, 10:34 PM

yes samwise

and considering the name came from hobbits to begin with, with their qualities as described by the author, it is still just a name.

BTW, didn't he only have frodo for company for most of the narrated trilogy? Gandalf had many names by different people/races, depending on how they viewed him or his actions. The Rohirrim even changed his name after Grima "resigned".

coolismo

01-17-2002, 06:25 AM

Frodo and Sam are one. The two aspects of divinity. Master and servant. Christ had both aspects and Tolkien just separates them to show how both operate togehter. Its there in the last scene of Fellowship when Frodo lifts Sam from the water and in Towers after the battle with Shelob and the final march on Mount Doom in the Return. The symbolism is all there. Its in the way that Sam takes Frodo by the hand, carries him etc. The two become unified in a more intimate way. I know JRR is not overt in his symbolism and I dont think its so much religeous as spiritual but the two characters are two aspects of the divine on Earth...see the feast of Cana where JC is both the master and servant. Read Mount Doom its all there.
Nicely done in the Movie, actually the only nice bit.
lovecool

sun-star

01-17-2002, 10:11 AM

I agree the relationship was well done in the movie and I hope it continues. At times in the other two books their relationship is almost the only thing happening in their sections, when all they do is walk. It is the affection between them which keeps them going.
I like your idea about Sam and Frodo representing two aspects of Jesus, I never thought of that before. :D

kennebecc

01-17-2002, 10:41 AM

Sam may not be dim, but . . . Pippin . . . is he a fool of a Took? :)

Arathorn

01-17-2002, 11:08 AM

coolisimo:

That's such an insightful post right there.

I, however, was opting to explain that people in mid earth might have chosen names for friends, kin, acquaintances according to how they worked, acted, or are perceived. Kinda like how many ancestral names got started.

Anyway, there's a thought and I've gained another perspective and will be thinking about those deeper insights as well. Thanks.

JenniferTook

01-18-2002, 03:27 AM

Of course Sam is not dim! I'd say he is very smart in his own way. No, he is not a great scholar, but he does have a lot of sense and can read people really well. He is also very loyal and cares for Frodo a great deal, which explains why he follows Frodo everywhere, even into the most perilous danger.

Sam is awesome.

Jennifer

coolismo

01-18-2002, 03:39 AM

thanks folks for your kind words. I am new to Tolkien and my biggest regret is not reading it 20 years ago....I'll post up some more stuff about sam and frodo as the two aspects of divinity: master and servant and see how it flies.

coolismo

01-18-2002, 10:33 AM

I see Frodo and Sam as two aspects of the same spirit of divinity. Master and Servant. I feel this really gets going at the Breaking of the Fellowship. Sam makes his ‘leap of faith’ into the river and the invisible Frodo takes him by the hand and hauls him from the depths. The imagery here looks like a joining, a kind of baptism of the relationship-two aspects seen in Christ. Not that the two are representative of Christ but of divinity, spirituality and humanity.

The two aspects of Christ are seen in The Feast of Cana. Mary and a young JC arrive at a wedding and the wine runs out (they gatecrashed with some apostles maybe big boozers). Mary commands Jesus to turn the water into wine and, after protesting that he doesn’t want to be revealed, does so. Mary then tells everyone to ‘do as he tells you to do.’ Keep this is mind when reading the scene in the breaking and after the fight with Shelob.

The master servant thing is not as simple as Frodo is the boss and Sam is the donkey. It’s rich and complex and great reason to keep reading and re reading LOTR. The richness of it is in TT in The Choices of Master Samwise. Its good to reread it and see how the imagery refers back to The Breaking. See how Sam takes his master’s hand when he lost in unconsciousness mirroring Frodo doing the same in The Breaking for sam and signalling a shift in the balance of strengths from master to servant. But see how Sam then can take on the master ‘energy’ and can take the weight of the ring and the quest.

The Choices of Master Samwise.
Paragraph starting…’But he could not go………’

Hope this helps.

Halfling

01-18-2002, 04:00 PM

In TTT, it says that Sam had a slow, but clever mind. So he might not have caught on quickly, but he figured things out that others, perhaps because they were too wise, could not see. And Gollum did not repent. Fortunately, Sam was clever to see this and keep on his guard, or else Gollum might have succeeded in doing something truly horrible to them.

sun-star

01-18-2002, 04:04 PM

So what if Sam's a bit slow? After all, it wasn't the wise elf-lords who carried Frodo up that mountain. Perhaps a part of showing that the litle guy can make a difference is showing that the not-so-smart guy can too, if he has enough hobbit-sense.

coolismo

01-20-2002, 09:30 AM

One of the best things about the film was the way it extended the short scene at the river when Sam dives out to be rejoined with his master. In the film they have Same call out and wade out into the river gradually sinking untill immersed and helpless he is pulled up by Frodo's hand.
Take alook at this to get my drift...
http://www.wcg.org/lit/gospel/peter.htm

No I'm not saying this is literally it but it helps to see what Jackson is upto maybe.

KGamgee

01-21-2002, 05:00 PM

Thats sort of an interesting idea. I'm so glad you people all like Sam, because I just LOVE him!!!:p :p :D :D He and Frodo went through so much, and Sam would do anything for him.
GO SAM!

KGamgee

01-24-2002, 04:22 PM

Keep responding people, this is my favorite thread!

olsonm

01-24-2002, 04:54 PM

sam-WISE? and they say Tolkien never used irony!

olsonm

01-24-2002, 09:05 PM

Hey! olsonm you jerk! Sam's name is supposed to be ironic! You may think your clever but that 'joke' was just stupid! Sam's the best character in the book!:mad:

olsonm

01-24-2002, 09:15 PM

Hey! that's not fair olsonm! I know my 'joke' was bad. I was just trying to keep the thread going for KGamgee! You're overreacting and your name-calling is inappropriate for the entmoot!

markedel

01-24-2002, 09:16 PM

Sam was probably the best of them-he of everyone bore the ring best. Better then Isildur did certainly.

markedel

01-24-2002, 09:17 PM

Uh Tolkein was pretty clear Samwise's name means halfwit in Westron :) Check the appendixes.

olsonm

01-24-2002, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by markedel
Uh Tolkein was pretty clear Samwise's name means halfwit in Westron :) Check the appendixes.

See olsonm! This proves Sam was dum!:p

olsonm

01-24-2002, 09:25 PM

NO! olsonm that's why his name was ironic, because he wasn't a half-wit!:p :p

Agburanar

01-25-2002, 05:38 AM

Sam is not dim, he's jsut different!

Banazir

01-25-2002, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Agburanar
Sam is not dim, he's jsut different!

LOL!

I love this thread, too. Absurd and hilarious.
Next, someone is going to say that Sam is smarter than Frodo, just because he's your favorite character...

ragamuffin92

01-25-2002, 12:20 PM

I'm worried about you--your posts are beginning to resemble a Gollum versus Smeagol debate...
:D

ragamuffin92

01-25-2002, 12:53 PM

In case you didn't know and are interested, on May 31, 1944, Professor T. wrote this in a letter to his son Christopher: "...I am not really satisfied with the surname Gamgee and shd. change it to Goodchild if I thought you would let me."

Thrain of the Shire

01-26-2002, 11:40 AM

Whether Samwise means half wit or not will not tell us how clever Sam is -- JRR was a notorious joker and punster and may well have meant the opposite of the name.

I like Coolismo's posts about Frodo and Sam being two parts of the same spirit. That is very much how I saw many of the pairings in the books.

Legolas is more completed through his partnership with Gimli -- and vice versa. Each person is enhanced by working with their opposite. A representation that we could all learn from. And JRR definitely had the view that differences were to learn from and not to fight over.

By having Sam in the book, JRR was able to inlcude elements of practicality and depth that would not be possible to include if just Frodo was there...

As for whether he is "sick"..well, I must admit that when I first read the book I was pretty hung up on the servant element, but when I thought about the time the book was written, it became much more positive, and became a demonstration that just because someone starts out as a servant and has their own ways of showing respect, they are also able to be a partner.
If I remember rightly, when the books first came out there was criticism of Sam because he wasn't fawning enough and was said to be unrealistic!!

And I know that many people who have read the books more recently find it hard to cope with Sam at first, as they have no background on the whole servant thing. Once they realise the era of JRR's writing, they find it a lot easier to relate to Sam...

markedel

01-26-2002, 11:45 AM

At this point the Balrog wing debate shall reignite

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

KGamgee

01-27-2002, 06:55 PM

Sam is smarter than Frodo....just in a different way...he...umm...has....umm...common sense....ummm....okay, I tried. Frodo is smarter than him, but Sam's still cooler and definatley not dim or stupid.
*PS* Thanks for keeping the thread going for me!:)

ragamuffin92

01-27-2002, 07:19 PM

Did you ever read "Letters?" On Christmas Eve, 1944, Professor T wrote, in a letter to Christopher, "Cert(ainly), Sam is the most closely drawn character, the successor to Bilbo of the first book, the genuine hobbit. Frodo is not so interesting because he has to be highminded...The book will prob(ably) end up with sam (who) will settle down to the Shire and gardens and inns."

sun-star

01-28-2002, 05:00 PM

OK, I know we finished with the names thing, but I have a little question... Any ideas why only Sam and Rosie (and Tom Bombadil) have what you might call ordinary names? Is there any reason, or not?
(And of course I know it's Samwise really, but still it's closer to English names than Frodo etc.)

olsonm

01-28-2002, 05:13 PM

Coincidence in Sam's case. As far as Rosie, that was her name translated into english. I don't know the Hobbit word for Rose.

KGamgee

01-29-2002, 08:20 PM

I have always thought that Tolkien really liked Sam. His thoughts and opinions seem to be included a lot more than other characters. Thanks for that post about Letters:)
~KGamgee~

Samwise_Gamgee

02-04-2002, 12:21 AM

I do NOT think that Sam is "dim" at all!!!!! On the contrary, I think that Frodo is "dim"!!!! Did you notice that in the book, Frodo didn't seem to have any about idea what was going on......Sam had to do pretty much everything......Well, except carry a ring from the Shire to Mordor.........And even though Frodo is my favourite character, Sam is, too......

!!!!!!!!!!!!FRODO LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KGamgee

02-04-2002, 08:00 PM

Well, carrying the Ring to Mordor was kinda tough.
Lol.
~KGamgee~

silverwings

02-04-2002, 08:39 PM

Something creeps me out about Sam is how he said "I love you"
to Frodo. I tried to take that as pure friendship and loyalty, but then the "homosexual" in J.Peterson's speech about Sam really gives me goosebumps. For GOd's sake! I don't know what to think now!

Starr Polish

02-04-2002, 08:44 PM

Oi...People read so much into these things.

First of all, we have to remember that this book was written in a different time from us. They use words like queer and faggot, in the correct context (and so am I, so don't ban me!) Why is it wrong for a man to love another man as a friend? Also, Sam gets married and has what, 13 children when he gets back?

Feraway Hawkbriar

02-04-2002, 08:51 PM

Sam is not gay. End of story. T_T

ragamuffin92

02-04-2002, 09:16 PM

JRR Tolkien would have absolutely hit the ceiling if anyone had suggested to him that Sam was a homosexual. His love for Frodo is an example of true friendship, as as pure and noble as it gets. I think maybe J Peterson needs to stop looking for mermaids in a goldfish bowl, 'cause there ain't any there! :D
P.S.--Never heard of J Peterson. Who is he or she?

Evenstar

02-05-2002, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by ragamuffin92
P.S.--Never heard of J Peterson. Who is he or she?

I don't know who he is either!!!
I thought Sam was an absolutely BEAUTIFUL character...he was loyal and honest and he loved and protected his master through the depths of evil and a place very much like hell!!! He was a very touching character and i loved him!!! His speeches about Frodo were beautiful!!! He risked a lot for Frodo and he sacrificed a lot of things for Frodo!!! He was also VERY funny I thought!!!:D
AND FRODO WAS NOT DIM!!! He was carrying the weight of the world on a chain and he had to resist all powers of EVIL!!!

Agburanar

02-05-2002, 05:32 AM

Sam is not a homosexual, and i'm glad PJ didn't portray him as one, that's maybe the one thing he got right about Sam! The animated movie had a disturbing moment at weathertop, Frodo was much too camp and Sam was waaaaaay off!

Banazir

02-06-2002, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by silverwings
Something creeps me out about Sam is how he said "I love you"
to Frodo. I tried to take that as pure friendship and loyalty, but then the "homosexual" in J.Peterson's speech about Sam really gives me goosebumps. For GOd's sake! I don't know what to think now!

I'm sorry to sound ignorant, but when and where exactly did Sam say "I love you" TO Frodo?? If it was in the movie, then fine, I just forgot, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the book... Just a question, out of interest.
I'm not even going to ask about J. Peterson, some people already beat me to it.

sun-star

02-07-2002, 09:28 AM

I think he said "I love you" when Frodo is asleep in the chapter "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit". When he notices that Frodo has something elvish in his face, he says something like "but I love him, whether or no." There may be more occasions too.

Banazir

02-07-2002, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by sun-star
I think he said "I love you" when Frodo is asleep in the chapter "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit". When he notices that Frodo has something elvish in his face, he says something like "but I love him, whether or no." There may be more occasions too.

Yes, I remember that one, but Sam never said it *to* Frodo, just to himself. That's why I was surprised at the notion, Sam may have said "I love him", but not "I love YOU". It's a small detail, but I couldn't help noticing.

Twilight

02-07-2002, 11:04 AM

It is a sad society that we live in that we can't tell a friend that we love them without somebody thinking it is strange. I don't think Sam is dim. He is just a bit uneducated, and he acts in the way that he was raised.

KGamgee

02-07-2002, 05:41 PM

Okay.
Sam's not gay. He loves Frodo, but not in a homosexual way.I mean, he gets married (to a girl) and has 13 kids.His realtionship with Frodo? Its called FRIENDSHIP if you didn't know. Look it up.
Next.
Frodo certainly isn't dim. He is very wise, clever, and articulate. In Mordor...well you try carrying pure evil through h***. It can't be easy.
GO SAM
GO FRODO
GO SAM!
~KGamgee~

Evenstar

02-07-2002, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by silverwings
Something creeps me out about Sam is how he said "I love you"
to Frodo. I tried to take that as pure friendship and loyalty, but then the "homosexual" in J.Peterson's speech about Sam really gives me goosebumps. For GOd's sake! I don't know what to think now!

Haven't you ever told a great friend that u love them and appreciate what they have done for you!!! It doesn't mean that you are 'in' love with them!!! Just that they are a great friend!!!;)

Twilight

02-07-2002, 10:46 PM

I totally agree with that last statement Evenstar. I tell my friends that I love them all the time. There is such a thing as loving somebody as a friend

Agburanar

02-08-2002, 05:50 AM

Definately. In my experience it's often the case that you love your friends more than you BELIEVE you love anyone you're going out with. You only realise it afterwards.

KGamgee

02-08-2002, 09:51 AM

I love my friends, and I'm not a homosexual.
Neither is Sam.

Kwijibo

03-12-2002, 01:59 PM

I think Sam is just being loyal to Frodo. It's all he's ever known and he really respects Frodo, after all, he is a Baggins! And he definatey isn't dim, he might do things which we see as stupid in the name of his master, but that just shows his loyalty and friendship.

There was only one part where I didn't like Sam, it was when they were crossing the Dead Marshes and trekking around the gate off Minas Morgul, because Sam was behaving TERRIBLY towards poor Smeagol. Then again, I'm probably bias because I really like Smeagol. Notice the name, SMEAGOL. I don't like GOLLUM coz he just wants the preciousss, Smeagol only wants to help Frodo. I felt really sorry for poor Smeagol when he was forced to yield to Gollum.

He's brave as well. I guess that most of us would say that strolling into Mordor, alone, is a dim thing to do, but if your best friend and master was locked up in a tower being beaten up by evil guys, wouldn't you try to help them?

And Sam as a gay Hobbit? I have four words: Married With Thirteen Children!