How would you change things?

[afro-elf]

Hello, this is my 1st post after tons of reading.

I'm a role-player and a would be writer. I was wondering for you of a similar mind how would you change the Lord of the Rings if YOU wrote it today.

For me the world be a little altered. The Elves would not have faded to the extent that they have in LOTR. ( I really like Tolkein's Elves) There would have been better communication between the free peoples. Not SO much estrangement.

O'course because I'm a minority there would have been a wider mix of colors. I DO NOT IN ANY WAY THINK LOTR IS RACIST.

I know the hobbits were dark but I'm about to speak blasphemy... :)I liked the parts dealing with Elves and Men more so
than the parts with hobbits. I liked Merry and Pippin. Legolas and Aragorn, Glorfindel, Imrahil, Faramir, Gandalf and Gildor were my favs though.

I USUALLY role-play characters similar to me physically if Human. Or at least darK skinned if not.

For me it would have been cool if some of minor but cool characters were Black or Asian. Say Glorfindel, Gildor, Imrahil or Beregond.

Or REALLY cool if the House of Stewards were Black or Asian

Maybe the Riders of Rohan would have been Mongols

Then it could be really multi-cultural

A Human Aragorn marries an Elf,
A black Faramir marries an Asian
Galadriel and Gimli oops! :)

I'm not a big fan of "HIGH MAGIC" so LOTR is fine. BUT I think the Black Riders did not seem THAT powerful to me. I think I would have made them more fearsome.

The Lord of the Nazgul only seemed like the" Lord of the Nazgul " to me in the Return of The King. That's when he became the "TERRIBLE WITCH KING" to me.

Maybe the descrition of magic would be a tad more detailed.
Ex. Did Andruil glow with flame or was if figurative?

Gimli and Legolas would have been more prominent. Maybe the same with the son's of Elrond and Halabard. Maybe showing them "Hanging out" with Aragorn getting to know about the Rangers' life.

O'course Eowyn being told not to leave would have to do more needing one of noble blood staying behind more than her being a women.

There MAY have been a HANDFUL women warriors around in my story.

Tom Bomodil would not be singing Tom Bomodilo la la la
(blasphemy again) :)the character would have stayed but without
romper room gaity

Legolas would have wore boots not shoes and had a short sword(Roman Gladus style) instead of a long knife


These are just a few things I thought of. I really enjoy LOTR rings but my writting style is different than that of the Professors.

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS A Tolkien bashing is just a question to see what you guys would change.

please forgive the errors that may be in the above I'm 3+ hours GMT and its WAY past my bed time

Ciao

[Ñólendil]

I won't attempt to respond to so much, so I greet with you hearty 'welcome!'

[Darth Tater]

Welcome to Entmoot! I'm a (pitifull) writer myself, but I honestly would not change LOTR in any way. I consider it to be nearly perfect, and anything I did would only ruine it. BTW, there are black people in LOTR, they just happen to join up with Sauron. There's also a suggestion that the Breelander's are dark skinned, more so then simply from too much time in the sun.

[Ñólendil]

*leers threateningly at Darth*

As far as I am aware, there is no quote which specifies any swarthy Men having black skin, specifically. Not the Haradrim, not the Easterlings (the Wainriders were actually white-skinned, the skin-colour of the bearded ones with axes in the LR narrative is not specified), not anyone. But there are many swarthy people on either side.

The Men of Bree-land were descended from the Dunlendings, who had dun-brown skin. This is a very large racial class. The Halethrim, Dunlendings, Bree-landers, many Gondorians, the Dead Men of Dunharrow, they all come from one people. Read the Minas Tirith chapter again Darth, Pippin notices many swarthy people marching into the City (and I do believe the Woses were of darker skin, though that is not said in the Lord of the Rings). Too many people for mysterious reasons do not remember the dark skinned folks on the good side. What I have listed here is a very small selection. But as for specifically black skinned people, I don't remember reading about any. It is of course quite possible that some people who were pointed out as 'swart' were in fact black, but as I said there are good and wicked swarthy people in Tolkien's works.

[Darth Tater]

You don't remember ppl seeing groups of I believe the exact quote is "black men" going to Mordor?

[Ñólendil]

I remember 'black men like Half-trolls' who are later called Half-trolls that fight in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields (they came from the far South, I imagine the creatures were some mix of Men down there and the Olog-hai of Sauron), other than that, no.

Anyway 'black men' doesn't always mean 'black-skinned men', sometimes it means 'evil men' (i.e., under the Shadow, like the corrupt Black Númenóreans, who were white-skinned), sometimes it means 'men who wear dark clothing'. Gollum is frequently called black, but never in relation to his skin. When his skin hue is mentioned it is pale. He was mostly called 'black' when in the dark and I assume (what because it was suggested by Michael Martinez to me some time ago, and it makes sense) he wore dark clothing. The Black Riders of course have no visible skin.

[Bantan]

:D I liked your changes EXCEPT Tom Bombadil. he shouldn't be changed in any way! as for the singing, that just shows who he was. he was the Master of the forest, but he didn't take it as a burden, he was happy in his work and i daresay eccentric. in LotR, besides Gollum, my favorite character is Tom .:D

[afro-elf]

Thanks for the replies.



These are some further thoughts.

I guess one BIG change would be ME.

I'd be one of the characters. Since I'd wanna be dark I'd be a Bree Lander with a really adventurous spirit.

Since it "SEEMS" that humans can possess SOME magic and since I like Elves. I'd be some Elf-happy Breelander, with little bit of ELF-wanna be magic

I'd be Aragorn's sidekick maybe.


I'd boot Samwise and make Merry or Pippin replace without the master servant thing going on.

My love of Elves and devotion to Aragorn could repalce Samwise's
love of Elves and devotion to Frodo

Perhaps I'd make Legolas a female and have Gimli, Legolas, and myself have a more involved triangle of sorts. My fawning over the female Legolas and Gimli's shakey start with the Elf could provide some humor .

Also being a Breelander maybe the Hobbits would underestimate me at first, also.

Despite my Elf-happy ways. I would not be comic relief. Under the tutelage of the Elves I would have developed certain insights.

[cee2lee2]

I don't have the imaginaton for it, but you sound like a very good RPG player.:)

[Elven Warrior Maiden]

afro-elf, all thats pretty good, I want to be a writer to, but I wouldn't change anything. Especially Legalas a female, my sister wouldn't be to happy.....

cee2lee2, what is a whatever it was player?

[Play Girl]

More women and more sexual tension between Sam and Frodo!:D
play girl

[Ñólendil]

RPG= Role-Playing Game.

[afro-elf]

Thanks for the compliment cee2lee2

[IronParrot]

I don't think a damn thing should be changed about this perfect, perfect novel.

Oh, one gripe, though.

In I.5 ("A Conspiracy Unmasked") you know how Pippin and Merry do all the explaining, while Fatty sits there silently for the whole chapter listening to everyone around him talk? That's always struck me as a little awkward... I'd expand his role a little.

[Ñólendil]

It is difficult to imagine what Fredegar was doing throughout most of that part, just sitting and listening I guess. It does come across a bit awkward.

[Comic Book Guy]

If I was to expand Fatty's part, I would have him go with the hobbits to Rivendell, then have Elrond tell him go back to the Shire and warn everybody, which was to be the original task of Merry and Pippin.

Of course this could be a bad thing for his role, perhaps it was the simplicity of his part which appeals to me and others.

[Ñólendil]

But he had a job in the Shire you know. He was to stay behind and make it seem as though Frodo was still at Crickhollow. He'd wear Frodo's clothes even. And, he was going to tell Gandalf what had happened. In the event Gandalf did not stop for news, but Fredegar succeded in convincing the Blackriders (on accident) that 'Baggins' was indeed still staying at Crickhollow. He escaped them, alerted the neighbours, and the Horn of Buckland was blown and the residents aroused. The Nazgûl then fled. Later he led a band of Hobbits against Sharkey's Men and was shut up in the Michel Delving for his troubles.

[IronParrot]

Yeah, I just meant expanding Fatty as in, showing him having a more active role in planning his end of the deal with the others.

[Captain Stern]

I'd eliminate Eowyn's character because I thought it was politicaly correct even if that wasn't Tolkien's intention, I can not stand Xena Warrior princess types.

At the least I would give Merry a lot more credit for his part in the killing of the witch king. If it wasn't for Merry Eowyn would have been cut down like grass, so he played the largest role in killing him and he should have been reckognised as doing so too.

[afro-elf]

I do agree that merry should get equal praise for slaying the witch-king. eowyn may have scored the the goal but merry deked the defenders and set up eowyn with a picture perfect pass.


BUT i don't think xena and eowyn are even in the same league.

eowyn is a mortal woman who has been trained to fight. ( she mentions something about being a shield maided) AND historically women fought in several cultures. i can provide info if you like.


she is not like the xenarwen on the humorous mouth of sauron site. check out the unofficial scripts there and i think you'll have a blast on their version of both arwen, eowyn, and xena

[afro-elf]

here is the site for xenarwen


http://www.angelfire.com/sk/sharkens/

under unofficial scripts

[Legolas]

Well, I adore the book as it is, but I'd like to do one little change: the end is too sad. The Elves go out, Gandalf too... I don't like this. I'd prefer something like that:
1) the Elves remain in Middle-Earth and, perhaps, mix with humans;
2) the Istars (Gandalf in particular) also remain and help humans and hobbits;
3) everything remains AS IT WAS in the Third Age.

[Bregalad]

I wouldn't want to change anything in Tolkien's stories, but it does break my heart when the elves have to leave middle earth. I can't stand the thought of Lothlorien being no more. I wish it didn't have to be that way...

[Phelan Kell]

I was not disapointed in the least, but the ending of LotR was very sad. I personally felt that after 1000 pages of reading(not to mention that I read the Hobbit first) I deserved a happy ending. Can anyone tell me whether all the elves left Middle Earth or if just a few of the High Elves.

Phelan Kell

[Ñólendil]

It was most of the High-Elves that left and I believe many of the Sindar. There were in fact some Noldor left in the Fourth Age, despite what Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in The Silmarillion has to say. From the fragment of The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn that appears in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings, it emerges that there were not any Noldor left in Middle-earth by the 120th year of the Age of Man. It also appears that by that time none lived in Rivendell. The Elves have to leave or fade away -- for I have not seen any, and I am willing to bet that you have not either. If only the Second Born could collectively pick ourselves up and aspire to bring a little beauty to the Seventh Age, we might catch a glimpse of the ancient Light beyond the Sea.

[afro-elf]

wasn't there something about celeborn going to Rivendell in the 4th age.

didn't legolas bring some elves to Ithelien?

[Wayfarer]

Umm...

*Looks sick*

I'll try and break this to you gently, afro-elf.

You are not one tenth the author tolkien was!

Any changes made to the lord of the rings by parties such as ourselves would invariably SUCK.

I couldn't pull it off.
You couldn't pull it off.

Attempting to 'improve' something as perfect as Middle Earth makes you no better than any other crappy author that's tried. And they aqll suck.

The elves are supposed to leave. I's supposed to be sad. That's one of the things that sets tolkien's elves apart from cheesy D&D ripoff elves.

"O'course because I'm a minority there would have been a wider mix of colors."

What? you meant ypurple spotted yellow orcs aren't enough? Fie!

In any case, that's incredibly unnescessary. The haradrim were assumed to be melino. The orcs were black black. There were characters with pale, dark, ruddy, sallow, and transparent complexions. There were characters with squinty/slanted eyes. And any attempt to mke racial diversity more prominent would likely reduce the writing quality to that of margret weiss... or some equally horrendous plagurist hack.

"Then it could be really multi-cultural."

It was multi cultural. Middle earth is far more multi cultural than any other fantasy novel, because there are actual cultures. Not stupid, cheesy generalizations that are laughable if not downright pathetic.

Overly descriptive magic makes it less magical. You end up with a cheesy plot device instead of something powerful and mysterious.

The book was an epic. Your desire to see characters "hanging out'' would cheapen it to no end.

Please. Please. realize that almost any 'improvements' that you suggest to the lord of the rings will almost certainly come from newer, less skilled fantasy authors, the vast majority of whom Were tolkien ripoffs! That's like suggesting the original Star wars would have been better with jarjar binks!

[afro-elf]

Ok mr. nay sayer err wayfarer

You are not one tenth the author tolkien was!

your statement is non sequitor

I NEVER COMPARED MYSELF TO TOLKIEN

only a fool or someone imbued with hubris would do so

your next few statements are just qualitative hogwash

I believe that you and I would both agree that LOTR is a great book

BUT TO BREAK IT TO YOU GENTLY

a lot of people do not
its hard to believe people but its true



Attempting to 'improve' something


once again a non sequitor statement

this thread is NOT entitled how to IMPROVE but what would you change

change and improve are NOT synonymous


QUOTE]I's supposed to be sad[/QUOTE]


WHERE in MY post did I write ANYTHING saying that
I would have made it HAPPY and teddy bearish?

one reason I like the book is because it can be grim at times


i did say

For me the world be a little altered. The Elves would not have faded to the extent that they have in LOTR. ( I really like Tolkein's Elves) There would have been better communication between the free peoples. Not SO much estrangement.

key words; to the extent/ SO much

doesn't mean a peter jackson elven calvary charge/change or that the free peoples had SMOOTH relationships



Your color statements to are also non sequitor BECAUSE my statement was qualified




For me it would have been cool if some of minor but cool characters were Black or Asian. Say Glorfindel, Gildor, Imrahil or Beregond.


I'm not talking about the faceless Southrons or some foul orcs.

I Know the hobbits were dark BUT i qualified that too. they were my LEAST favorite in the books.

the characters I named above were not swarthy. I was solely speaking of the characters I mentioned.


OTHERS brought up the standard race/color debate

I said that I did not think he was racist. I said this because I am aware of there being swarthy folks on the good guys side

BUT just NOT the people I would have like them to be


I was using the word multi-cultural in the popular vulgarized euphemistic tone meaning the erroneous concept of "RACE"

please refer to the preceeding to gather my point concerning this


Overly descriptive magic makes it less magical. You end up with a cheesy plot device instead of something powerful and mysterious

did you even read what I wrote? or did you just have a need to rail on someone.

I said
I'm not a big fan of "HIGH MAGIC" so LOTR is fine

what I did say
Maybe the description of magic would be a tad more detailed

a TAD more detailed IS NOT overly descriptive. With the exception of ONE fantasy series I HATE chessy powerful magic.

that's why I Hate DnD and MOST FRPG's

I put "HANGING OUT" in quotes for a reason.

did you think I meant they were gonna sit around the camp fire and tell dirt elf jokes?

NO it meant knowing more about the rangers of the north

That's like suggesting the original Star wars would have been better with jarjar binks!

than is a truly an acerebral analogy and one beneath your mental acumen

I do not mind astringent criticism

but I think you were not on top of your game today

i castigate thee thus

[Ñólendil]

wasn't there something about celeborn going to Rivendell in the 4th age.

didn't legolas bring some elves to Ithelien?

Yes. He evidently had left by IV 120, though, because none dwelt in Rivendell by that time. The Appendices tells us that Celeborn would leave with CÃ*rdan and the last of the Noldor. So by IV 120, all the Noldor had gone away or faded. There were of course Elvish spirits lingering in the world, and they will linger until the End.

The Edhil or 'Elves' Legolas led to Ithilien were from the Woodland Realm and did not contain any Noldor. Legolas led his people there early on the in the Fourth Age, it seems. He (with Gimli) left Middle-earth after the death of Elessar, in 120.

[Wayfarer]

"I NEVER COMPARED MYSELF TO TOLKIEN"

Nope. And that's good. But answer me this... Does not the statement "This is what I would have done differently" Imply that you think you could do better?

While I'm cetrainly not going to say that you claimed your changes were an improvement, I would wonder why you would wish to make them otherwise? Only a mental incompetent (or a $00t) would make changes that they didn't think were improvements.

"a fool or someone imbued with hubris would do so"

Wow. That's so much better than calling me 'insipid'. :D (Ask Inoldonil)

"qualitative hogwash"

Great usage of words there. Love the junction of Coarse and Lofty adjectives.

"I believe that you and I would both agree that LOTR is a great book."

If we didn't, what would we be doing _here_?

"a lot of people do not
its hard to believe people but its true"

Oh, I believe it. I know those people too.

They have Jordan, Herbert, Brooks, Weiss... ad nauseaum.

"this thread is NOT entitled how to IMPROVE but what would you change"

I hope I have addressed the discrepancy between Change and Improve? Need I reiterate?

"change and improve are NOT synonymous"

I reiterate: 'Need I reiterate?'

"WHERE in MY post did I write ANYTHING saying that
I would have made it HAPPY and teddy bearish?"

I'm sorry... I was not specifically speaking to you when I said that. I was speaking to the attitude implicit in statements like:

"I ... felt that after 1000 pages...I deserved a happy ending. "
(I trust I didn't leave anything important out?)

"For me the world be a little altered. The Elves would not have faded to the extent that they have in LOTR. ( I really like Tolkein's Elves) There would have been better communication between the free peoples."

I'm afraid that would have damaged the story quite a bit. If everyone had gotten along... the world would be flat (to name the most drastic example).

Ok! I'm still taking your words out of proportion. Sorry.

In any case, I find that the fading of the elves is nescessary. If the elves had remained in middle earth undiminished, men would become the 'minority'... in the most drastic sense possible. They were both physically and mentally superior to us.

And anyway... they got their two ages.

"Not SO much estrangement."

I can't really argue this point anymore. I'll concede your point, while asking exactly how it would make the book better. All good things must come to an end, you know.

"Your color statements to are also non sequitor BECAUSE my statement was qualified

I'm not talking about the faceless Southrons or some foul orcs."

Well... Would you rather a faceless Maia? Or faceless Elf? Or a faceless gondorian?

"I Know the hobbits were dark BUT i qualified that too. they were my LEAST favorite in the books."

The book is sort of about them, but ok.

"the characters I named above were not swarthy. I was solely speaking of the characters I mentioned."

Sure. But I couldn't (and still can't) think of any way that the aforementioned characters could possibly have been dark skinned. It would require a rather radical change to the background marterial.

"OTHERS brought up the standard race/color debate."

"Did I say anything about Feanor? No!" (Sorry... you'll have to ask Inoldonil about that one too... If he remembers.)

I never claimed you had... Where did I give that impression?

"BUT just NOT the people I would have like them to be"

Huh. I can't say much to that one. Have I mentioned I wish orcs were green with purple spots and hobgoblins looked like drow?

"I was using the word multi-cultural in the popular vulgarized euphemistic tone meaning the erroneous concept of "RACE""

Well... 'Race' in middle earth correctly refers to... I'll let that one drop.

"did you even read what I wrote? or did you just have a need to rail on someone."

That must be it. Although I can't think of any sarcastic justification that I'm willing to post, so I'll write it off to flamespeak.

"a TAD more detailed IS NOT overly descriptive. With the exception of ONE fantasy series I HATE chessy powerful magic.

that's why I Hate DnD and MOST FRPG's"

Good. But where do you think it needs more detail? I mean 'white light flashed fromt the rider's hand towards the nazgul' (SIC) Seems to be detailed enough. Did you mean a more clear defenition of exactly where magic was being used?

"did you think I meant they were gonna sit around the camp fire and tell dirt elf jokes?"

[/B][/QUOTE]www.nekkidelfbabes.com (http://this.page.does.not.exist/but.it.was.pretty.funny/huh?) ;)

"NO it meant knowing more about the rangers of the north"

I can't see how I missed that, but if you say so, I could stomach that. I wouldn't mind knowing more about them myself.

Although that seems to be strictly appendice marterial.



I still can't find any justification for most of the changes that have been suggested. Most would clash one way or another with either the world or the author's writing style.

"I castigate thee thus"

Lovely word. Castigated.

Duly so.

[afro-elf]

Nope. And that's good. But answer me this... Does not the statement "This is what I would have done differently" Imply that you think you could do better?

Only a mental incompetent (or a $00t) would make changes that they didn't think were improvements.

HUMM....

the infamous word imply

changing from red berechetta to a black one is just something that is different. I prefer black, doesn't mean that it's an improvement.

now going from a 1972 ford (?) gremlin to an aston martin now that is an improvement



a fool or someone imbued with hubris would do so" a fool or someone imbued with hubris would do so"

Wow. That's so much better than calling me 'insipid'


YOU did not claim to be better than tokien so this claim was NOT about you



I never claimed you had... Where did I give that impression?

you named off the list of people of color that most people do but not about the ones i mentioned. thats all

Did you mean a more clear defenition of exactly where magic was being used?

YEAP


I implore you , please let's not get into what is "MAGIC" debate



I still can't find any justification for most of the changes that have been suggested. Most would clash one way or another with either the world or the author's writing style.


basically we have different qualitative views on tolkien. I like tolkien but i am not a votary

there are some things in the book I do not like. simple

you think it was perfect/ I dont

let us not fall to the devices of Sauron and sully ourselves whilst the darkness gathers

also you had not joined the board at that time to keep me on my toes :)


so please take my statements as idle musing as opposed to reasoned alterations.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by afro-elf
YOU did not claim to be better than tokien so this claim was NOT about you

It still sounds better than insipid. ]:)

I implore you , please let's not get into what is "MAGIC" debate

All right... I agree with you that a clearer definition of magic would be a good thing.

let us not fall to the devices of Sauron and sully ourselves whilst the darkness gathers

*/Looks up from his forgework, and tosses what appears to be a gold ring into the corner.

"Fine. Be that way."

]:)

also you had not joined the board at that time to keep me on my toes :)

Poor, Poor, you. ;)

so please take my statements as idle musing as opposed to reasoned alterations.

'K

[Ñólendil]

I am afraid -- afro-elf -- that you have fallen in with a purist :) You find them in hordes on the Middle-earth Vault, where Wayfarer and I were born. I think he still lives there, for the most part. Changing the Lord of the Rings or coming up with things to change is naturally quite alien to our thought. :) Do I use smilies too much? :)

[Wayfarer]

Naahhhh....


:cool: ;) :D :p :o


:rolleyes: