A few questions about the Maiar

[Captain Stern]

Is it said anywhere that Sauron was the most powerful of all the Maiar? I know he was the most powerful in the service of Morgoth but were there any more powerful he? Tolkien only mentions the name of a very few Maiar so I'm having truble making comparissons.

What exactly was Sauron's rank among the Maiar of Aule?

Does anyone know?

[fatclown]

Well, that is a very good question. I have done my reaserch:
For each of the Valar there are the anuir the great being Eonwe for manwe, oesse for ulmo, tilion the mooon, arien the sun, melian queen of the sindar, sauron the sorceror, gothmog, and of course the istari. To answer your questions sauron may be considered the greatest of morgoth's servants, but Gothmog was also immensly powerful and it can be debated that he would be able to overthrow sauron one on one. Aule had only sauron and lacked another maiar or it was not mentioned. It is doubtful that either saruon or gandalf (who is eventually the greatest istari) could directly overthrow eachother (minus the ring) I dont think the mairar tilion and arien could be defeated (heck they are the sun and moon) BUT THE GREATEST OF ALL MIAR WAS MOST DEFINATELY EONWE. He beared the flag of manwe and his strenght in battle even rivals the valar!! His trumpet announced the war of wrath and the overthrow of Melkor. He also judged the elves and gave the edain wisdom. I hope this helps!

[Captain Stern]

I was under the impression that there were many hundreds of Maiar perhaps even more than that when you consider the creatures which housed trapped spirits such as warewolves and Dragons. These all varied in power, from those such aswarewolves to the truly powerful such as Eonwe and The Balrogs.

I just looked in the Index of The Silmarillion and it describes Sauron as being "greatest of the servants of Melkor"

Eonwe does seem to be the greatest among the Maiar of Manwe, as for being the greatest of all maiar there simply isn't any proof but I'm sure he'd be in the running. As for the greatest Maia of the other Valar it really doesn't say or there are no obvious choices like Eonwe for Manwe.

You mention Osse being the greatest of Ulmo's Maiar, well you really can't be certain as he is the only maia of Ulmo ever mentioned.

Arien was chosen to guide the Sun "She was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin and was unhurt by them being from the begining a spirit of fire whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service." This tells us that she wasn't chosen because she was the mightiest Maia of her particular Vala but because she could resist the heat of Telperion. Also correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't this passage tell us that she is an uncorrupted Balrog? Which leads me to ask were the Balrogs all Maiar of one Vala? A group of similar Maiar?

Tilion certainly wasn't the greatest of Orome's Maiar. Unlike Arien he wasn't chosen for the task of guiding the last flower of Telperion but he begged for the privilage because of his love for the Silver tree. It's also stated that he was not as mighty as Arien.

Istari. Didn't Sauron bend Saruman to his will using the palantir? Saruman was the greatest of the Istari and his power was miniscule comapred to the power of Sauron. I remember a passage in The Lord of the Rings which compared Orthanc and the Tower of Mordor. I've been trying to find the passage but I just can't find the damn thing, it went something like "Orthanc looked like a child's immitation compared to the dark tower of Sauron" which shows that Sauron's power was leaps and bounds ahead of the power of the greatest Istar.

[Comic Book Guy]

Fatclown, you are forgetting that Curumo(Saruman) was also a maia of Aulë.

Captain Stern, you are right in thinking saying that Istari are weaker than Sauron even at their full power. It states in Unfinished Tales, that Olórin(Gandalf) feared Sauron.

The quote you were looking for is this


A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better. as he thought, being deceived-for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own. came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress. armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dùr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.


Also I like the thought of a good, uncorrupted balrog, but in the Valaquenta it seems to suggest that only the corrupted ones were Valaraukar.

[fatclown]

I agree to some extent stern. Curumo is not greater than Olorin by the third age. And it can not be concluded wheather or not he was greater nor lesser than sauron. Olorin was created to guide the peoples of arda against the dark powers (sauron) not do the deed against him. It can be argued, however, weather or not gandalf could have been destroyed. Unlike sauron, who's power and weakness was based upon his ring, gandalf had no great weakness especially when ascending to white. The topic of weather or not saruon or gandalf could have won one on won could be greatly disbuted (considering the sheer amount of power and body switching in saurons case would be involved) I agree with what you said on the maiar. Yet dragons and werewolves were not maiar, they were either bred or created with arda, not the the valar, as other maiar are. With Arien, it is apparent that evil in this book is associated with fire and burning, but Arien lacked that evil, she was of glorifying fire, not evil. She wasn't a balrog.

Comic: I would like to see the statement that gandalf feared sauron, just for information sake. And the strength of structure or fortress cannot be used to judge the power of the individual, for the power of sauron's ring alone crumbled the barad-dur. Assailing the pits of Utumno may be greater in challange than assailing melkor himself? This is up for debate...

[Comic Book Guy]

The statement you are looking for Fatclown, is in the essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales, when the Valar are having the council on who should go to Middle-Earth.

Most of the remaining writings on the Istari(as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illiegible. Of major interest however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of the council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë(And maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?), at which it was resolved that there should be three emissaries to Middle-Earth. "Who would go, for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and must clothe themselves in flesh as so to treat on equality and trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearyness coming from the flesh." But only two came foward, Curumo who was Chosen from Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in gray, and having just entered from a journey seated himself at the end of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third Messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olórin declared he was much to weak for a task and that he feared Sauron. And Manwë said that was all the more reason he should go, and that he commanded Olórin.(Illiegible words that follow that seem to contain the word "Third") But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the Third"; and Curumo remembered it.
The note end with Curumo took Aiwendil because Yavanna begged him and Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

[Captain Stern]

Fat Clown, about the warewolves and dragons, before tonight I may have agreed with you. However a few hours ago i was flipping through The Silmarillion and started reading "Of Beren and Luthien" when I came accross this line:

"Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron;and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies."

Make of it what you will. If that was the process of making Warewolves then the process of making Dragons would be very similar you'd think. If not warewolves then why not Dragons?

What I was trying to say in relation to Arien was that she may have been what a balrog would be like if it hadn't been drawn to the service of Morgoth. Maybe the name of "Valarukhar" was given after the transition from a glorious fire spirit like Arien to a creature of darkness like the Balrogs.

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"And the strength of structure or fortress cannot be used to judge the power of the individual, for the power of sauron's ring alone crumbled the barad-dur."
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I think that passage ( thanks for finding it by the way Comic Book Guy ) makes it clear that the strength of structure or fortress is can indeed by related to the power of an individual. In fact the destruction of the Ring causing the crumbling of Barad Durr shows us that it was Sauron's power that held the structure together and in order to do that his power must have been immense indeed. This means that Sauron could do things Saruman could only dream of.

Where does it say that Gandalf the White was more powerful than Saruman the White? If any "White" is as powerful as the other then Gandalf the White wouldn't have stood a chance in a one on one conflict against Sauron, Saruman the White obviously wasn't any where near the power of Sauron.

[Comic Book Guy]

Your are welcome Captain Stern :D It's especially helpful with this ASCII text version of the LOTR. ;)

[Finmandos12]

Osse was not the only Maiar who served Ulmo. His spouse Uinen was also with him.

And about werewolves and Dragons....
Morgoth "imprisoned spirits in fell beasts." He did not create the bodies of the wolves or the spirits in them, but only united them. We know that there were other spirits below Maiar and Valar. I think thats what werewolves were.
Dragons are a different story. Morgoth created their bodies and put spirits in them.

[Ñólendil]

I think it is said in the Silmarillion and other places that Sauron was the greatest of the Maiar. He is definitely said to be the greatest of the people of Aulë.

There were certainly 'many hundreds of Maiar perhaps even more'. We simply only know of about a dozen that are named.

There are three Maiar of Ulmo mentioned: Ossë, Uinen and Salmar.

Interesting comments, Captain Stern, about Arien as an 'uncorrupted Balrog'. Not that she could be called a Balrog 'demon of might'. I confronted Michael Martinez about this a while ago (you know, I don't think he ever saw your apology), I said in December of last year:

There is a part of the Silmarillion that indicates Arien is what Balrogs would have been had they never fallen to Melkor in the beginning. Is this passage to be trusted?

He replied:

I think so, but everything in Tolkien can be questioned for one reason or another. I think Tolkien was playing with the Greek idea of primal elements at one point: fire, water, air, earth, and void. Melkor would have been the fire deity, as Manwe was for air, Ulmo was for water, and Aule was for earth. The void would have been their origin. But if that was ever what he had in mind, he dropped it quick.

I wonder if each people of the Maiar even had a 'greatest'. Was there always one Maia attached to each Vala that was greater than the others? [/rhetorical question]

I get the impression from different writings about the Istari that there were many more than five, that is: many more than actually came to Middle-earth. Why would any need to be chosen if the ones that came to Middle-earth were the only ones?

I agree to some extent stern. Curumo is not greater than Olorin by the third age. And it can not be concluded whether or not he was greater nor lesser than sauron.

Oh, but it can fatclown. In Of the Istari, published in Unfinished Tales, it said that the Istari were Maiar, though 'not necessarily of the same rank'. They must have been of lesser rank, because it is stated in more than one place (including the Valaquenta) that the greatest of the Maiar of Aulë was Sauron, yet in that same essay (in UT) Curumo is specified as being of that people. Curumo and Sauron as Maiar of Aule + Sauron greatest of the Maiar of Aule = Sauron greater than Curumo.

It can be argued, however, weather or not gandalf could have been destroyed.

Well, no Ainu or any spirit can wholly be destroyed, but they can die. That is, their incarnated form, when they have one, can be destroyed, and that is 'death' to them. Gandalf died. But maybe I've misunderstood you.

fatclown, Werewolves may very well have been Maiar. Their bodies must have been devised by Morgoth (well, it's logical), but they were filled with evil spirits. It's quite possible, considering Tolkien decided the spirit in Huan was a Maia.

Dragons, however, are stated to be filled with the evil spirit of their master. Morgoth apparently put part of his own spirit and will into his Dragons, thus further diminishing himself. Much like, it seems, what Sauron later did with the Olog-hai.

We know that there were other spirits below Maiar and Valar. I think thats what werewolves were.

Do we? I know of the fëar inhabiting the Children of Ilúvatar, but unless you refer to such mysterious beings as Goldberry, Tom Bombadil, Caradhras and the nameless things in the depths of Mória, I have not heard of another order of spirits. So what do you mean?

I'm sure I've been at least slightly redundant here, sorry about that.

[Finmandos12]

I didn't know that Huan was a Maia. So I guess that there were not necessarily other spirits.

The rivermaiden was another being we don't know what it is.

[Ñólendil]

That's true! The River-woman. Some think it's just a poetic name for the Withywindle itself, (Goldberry says she is the 'daughter of the River' once), I think both could be true.

I wonder sometimes if the River-woman was not actually Uinen. It makes sense, if you read what is said of her in the Valaquenta. I have a fancy she attempted to create Goldberry. You know, conceived of her in her thought, wished her to be, and tried, but couldn't. Much like what happened with Aulë and the Dwarves, maybe Ilúvatar gave the thought true being (it being afterall perceived from the beginning*), and she awoke by the Withy-pool, where Tom found her. This would not make her a Maia anymore than it makes the Fathers of the Dwarves Valar. But who knows.

*According to my fancy. She would be ordained to be the spouse of Tom, Eru would know of Uinen's future desire ever since the One created Iarwain Ben-adar, and this would be why it would be permitted. Just as Melian was permitted to give herself a true body (not just as raiment) because it was perceived from the beginning, and indeed ordained for the ennoblement of the Children of Ilúvatar (especially the Second).

[Michael Martinez]

The Withywindle is a bit off the beaten path for Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, to whom the mariners cry.

Another of the Maiar of Ulmo would be Salmar, who made Ulmo's horn.

"Valaquenta" says that the number of the Maiar was not known to the Elves, and that few had names given to them by the Children of Iluvatar.

[Ñólendil]

Perhaps I take the passage too literally, but the Valaquenta says: His spouse is Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky. All creatures she loves that live in the salt streams, and all weeds that grow there; to her mariners cry, for she can lay calm upon the waves, restraining the wildness of Ossë

The part I may be taking too literally is 'all waters under sky', but the bit about salt streams certainly imply her thought embraced more than just the Sea. I'd say it's still possible (about the River-woman), unless 'all waters' should not be taken literally and the Withywindle was a fresh water stream.

[Michael Martinez]

Most streams are of fresh water. And Uinen was more closely associated with Aman and the deep seas, whereas Osse was more closely associated with the coasts of Middle-earth. When Olwe called upon Osse for help against the Noldor, Osse did nothing. Yet Uinen raised the sea against the stolen ships, sinking many.

It is highly doubtful that Tolkien would have associated the River-woman with Uinen.

[Ñólendil]

Very well then. It was a romantic idea though. What do you think about the River-woman? I have a hunch it's like your Iarwain stance: 'I don't know, you don't know, we don't know'. Safe, and very true, but not very fun. :)

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Very well then. It was a romantic idea though. What do you think about the River-woman? I have a hunch it's like your Iarwain stance: 'I don't know, you don't know, we don't know'. Safe, and very true, but not very fun. :)

Tch, tch!

If I had to take a stance on Bombadil, the River-woman, and Goldberry, I would probably accept Tolkien at his word when he says that Bombadil is an aborigine. An aborigine is literally an original inhabitant. So, Tom, and probably the River-woman and Goldberry, must come from a "race" of rational incarnates who don't fit into the niches of Treebeard's list.

Through the years I have thought of old Tom as probably just another wayward Maia, like Melian. But he doesn't have to be. Tom and Goldberry act like pagan guardian spirits. So what if Tolkien wanted his enigma, described in pre-LoTR terms as "the spirit of the vanishing Oxford countryside", to be an incarnation of the guardian principle. Tom and Goldberry are guardians.

And what do they guard? Some people -- perhaps most -- would be quick to say they must guard the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs. But I don't think that's correct. The trees guard the forests, and the downs don't need guarding. I think Tom and Goldberry and other creatures like them must be guardians of the Children of Iluvatar. They are not in Middle-earth to protect the Children from wayward Ainur like Melkor and Sauron. Manwe, as the rightful King of Arda, would be charged with administering justice among the Ainur. I think Tom and his kind must be charged with watching over the Children as they spread through the world and grow.

Tom displays a special affinity for Men and Hobbits in the book, but he is also known to the Elves and Dwarves. He imparts wisdom and keeps them from stumbling into evil things which are beyond their powers to cope with. And he suppresses the darknes of the Old Forest as it manifests itself in the anger of the trees, keeping them in check without binding them to his will.

Tom has, in Tolkien's own words, foresworn domination or control over other wills. He is a natural pacifist, a non-violent creature who dwells harmoniously with other creatures. But he is also intensely curious, and he studies things simply for the sake of knowing and understanding them. He represents botany, as opposed to agriculture, in Tolkien's view. Tom is, in a way, one of those heavenly beings who is intensely interested in what the Children of Iluvatar do. But he is not charged with governing the world, or defending it against usurpation. He stands aside and lets others deal with such issues.

Ultimately, he cannot survive in a world where domination succeeds, but he can sustain himself amid the conflicts which arise between would-be dominators.

So, there you have it. I've jumped off the wall into a wholly new yard, and propose a Bombadilian theory which doesn't fit the traditional molds. He is not Iluvatar, he is not one of the Valar, he is not a Maia, he is not Tolkien, he is not the spirit of Arda. He is a guardian, and there must be others like him, although they may be few. Goldberry and the River-woman must also be guardians, although they may not be guardians of the Children of Iluvatar.

[Ñólendil]

Certainly Goldberry and Tom cannot be Maiar! If you piece together the quotes from Tolkien about them (well, mostly Tom), you realize they cannot be. I certainly agree they must be unique beings in the World.

But I hardly expected such an answer! You're very brave. *cringes as he awaits the return of the Bombadil-Battle*

___

There are other spirits though that seem to be unique. The spirit of Caradhras and the nameless things in the depths of Mória are said to be older than Sauron (like Tom). I wonder if there is a relationship?

[easterlinge]

Ummm..... when Yavanna complained about the trees and animals being defenceless, Manwe said there were spirits coming from afar dwelling in the trees and animals, becoming Ents and other creatures.

Maybe Bombadil is one of those spirits who decided not to dwell in trees or animals, but took his own chosen form? Maybe Goldberry is a spirit that decided to dwell in the Withywindle, later taking a womanly form.

There may be other such spirit-haunted places, maybe?

As to what those spirits were to begin with...... I dunno, I think Michael is right in saying they're Aborigines, but that's not a very specific and rather fuzzy word.

[Ñólendil]

But remember Tom said he had been in the World before the Dark Lord came from Outside, and that he saw the first rain drop and acorn. Tolkien said he was Eldest in Time. Time first began when Ea was set amid the Void, Ea's 'life was Time'. So Tom must have been in Ea before the Ainur, before the Valar.

But I guess it's possible Tom hadn't been in Arda before the Ainur.

[Michael Martinez]

I think you're confusing Ea and Arda. Ea is the universe and is far, far older than Arda, which encompasses Middle-earth. Arda began as a single world, but eventually the Valar created the Sun, the Moon, and Venus, and Iluvatar divided Aman from Middle-earth, making Middle-earth into the round and inescapable Earth where we now dwell.

Tom was an aborigine of Middle-earth, possibly of Arda. His memory of Melkor coming from Outside is probably of Melkor's return to Arda after the Valar had settled on Almaren. Tom should have been alive by then.

I don't believe it was his purpose to guard trees. I think he was there to help the Children in ways the Valar could not be expected to. He was older and wiser than Elves, Dwarves, and Men, but he probably had no direct, personal knowledge of Iluvatar or what lay beyond Arda. So he was in a way like an elder sibling, but not so far beyond the Children in experience that he represented a true danger to them (as Melkor and Sauron did).

[Ñólendil]

Somewhy Michael I think you've misunderstood me. I understand about Ea and Arda.

At first I thought the bit about him remembering the Dark Lord coming from Outside was Melkor's return as well, but I realized it could not have been. Of course Tom was around when that happened, but I suggest his beginning was further back than that. He was Eldest in Time, Time began with Ea, he was thus the first spirit in Ea, before the Ainur. Which was, of course, long before Melkor's return. Tom's comment about the Dark Lord coming from Outside was, then, speaking about the Dark Lord's first coming (into Ea from the Void, as opposed to what you seem to think: into Arda from the spaces around it within Ea).

Why you think he had no knowledge of what was beyond Arda then I don't know.

[Michael Martinez]

Where is it written that Tom is eldest in time?

[Ñólendil]

The Tolkien Letters, #153 (the one to Peter Hastings, the one who thought 'He is' meant Tom was God).

You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle -- inappositely since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time. But Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names.

Tolkien continues into explaining Tom's words to Frodo when the latter asked the former 'Who are you', I'm sure you're quite familiar with it.

[Michael Martinez]

You have misunderstood the letter. Tolkien is not saying that Tom is eldest in time. He is showing why Tom cannot be what Mr. Hastings has mistaken Tom for (God). In the preamble to the letter, Humphrey Carpenter writes: "...He also cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God...."

Tolkien's full response to the Bombadil question (is he or isn't he God) begins with:

As for Tom Bombadil. I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. (Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as commentator.) You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me object to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle -- inappropriately since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time. But Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names. See and ponder Tom's words in Vol. I p. 142. You may be able to conceive of your unique relation to the Creator without a name -- can you: for in such a relation pronouns become proper nouns? But as soon as you are in a world of other finites with a similar, if each unique and different, relation to Prime Being, who are you? Frodo has asked not 'what is Tom Bombadil' but 'Who is he'. We and he no doubt often laxly confuse the questions. Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer. We need not go into the sublimities of 'I am that I am' -- which is quite different from he is. She adds as a concession a statement of part of the 'what'. He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession of domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. He hardly even judges, and as far as can be seen makes no effort to reform or remove even the Willow.

Tolkien says, "and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time." That is, if he is truly God, then there is no one or thing older than him. He then shows that Goldberry's statement was not an assertion of primevality, but rather an identification of Bombadil, answering the "who is he" not the "what is he" (at first).

In a footnote to the letter, Tolkien writes the following:

Only the first person (of worlds or anything) can be unique. If you say he is there must be more than one, and creaed (sub) existence is implied. I can say 'he is' of Winston Churchill as well as of Tom Bombadil, surely?

So, here, Tolkien even denies the uniqueness of Bombadil. Bombadil is not unique. But he is Bombadil, meaning, presumably, that no one else is Bombadil, or that he is no one other than Bombadil. I am Michael Martinez. I am not unique. There are many other people like me, even many named "Michael Martinez" (at least, so I must believe, as their friends from high school frequently ask me if I am their old bud), but none of them are me, whereas I am (although I am not "I am that I am").

And Tolkien also makes it clear that Tom's knowledge is quite limited. So there is no basis for inferring that Tom's knowledge extended to matters beyond Arda, or even beyond Middle-earth. He claimed to have little knowledge of matters out east, for example.


Regarding Tom's reference to Morgoth's return, Christopher Tolkien writes this in The Return of the Shadow:

Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees; is it to this event that he referred in his words (retained in FR) 'He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside?...

At this point Christopher delves into the chronology of his father's work on The Silmarillion, noting that (at the time JRRT wrote the above words) Morgoth had only entered the world once. The second entry wasn't composed until after the publication of LoTR. To this, Christopher adds:

...It seems then that either Bombadil must in fact refer to Morgoth's return from Valinor to Middle-earth, in company with Ungoliant and bearing the Silmarils, or else that my father had already at this date developed a new conception of the earliest history of Melkor.

A few pages prior to this passage, Christopher published a note his father made concerning Bombadil (the opening page to Chapter VI, "Tom Bombadil"):

Tom Bombadil is an 'aborigine' -- he knew the land before men, before hobbits, before barrow-wights, yes before the necromancer -- before the elves came to this quarter of the world.

At best, we cannot take Bombadil farther back than the time after the destruction of the Two Lamps. In one of the early texts Tom says he is an "ab origine". The phrase (and name) literally means "from the beginning", but from the beginning of what? Not of Time, for Time began long before there was a Middle-earth. Tom was from the beginning of the land.

After LoTR, Tolkien returned to The Silmarillion and he then introduced the story of the first war between Melkor and the Valar, of Tulkas' late arrival and key role in defeating Melkor, and of the Valar's settling on the isle of Almaren and the creation of the Two Lamps (which Melkor returned to destroy). Either we must conclude that Bombadil's origin retroactively predates the Valar's settlement on Almaren, or else Tom simply doesn't remember anything from before the destruction of the Two Lamps.

Since there were already plants and animals in Middle-earth at the time the Two Lamps were destroyed, it is reasonable to infer that Tom's words would be retrofitted to the earlier period. That is, Tolkien should have implied that Bombadil's beginning lay soon after Valian Year 1500, when the Valar drove Melkor out of Arda and began to prepare it for the plants and animals. Bombadil would have awoken in that early time (or in some way came to self-awareness), which was the beginning of the land. He would therefore have seen the first raindrop and the first acorn, etc., etc.

So, the earliest we can place him is still countless ages after the beginning of Time. Hence, Tom is not eldest in Time. He is eldest in Middle-earth.

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien says, "and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time." That is, if he is truly God, then there is no one or thing older than him. He then shows that Goldberry's statement was not an assertion of primevality, but rather an identification of Bombadil, answering the "who is he" not the "what is he" (at first).

Ooooooooooooooh. That's different, isn't it? I always had trouble understanding the relationship of those particular paragraphs together (but particularly the footnote), now I know why.

So there is no basis for inferring that Tom's knowledge extended to matters beyond Arda, or even beyond Middle-earth.

Just to clarify, though you probably understand, my basis was made upon the 'Eldest in Time' comment; i.e., if Tom existed in Ea before the Ainur came there, he must have existed before Arda and so had knowledge before Arda. But, as you say, this isn't true.

Also I haven't really read much of The Return of the Shadow. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll have to remold my thoughts now .... so, out of curiousity, what's the prime weapon against the 'Tom was an Ainu' idea? 'Tom was in Ea before the Ainur came there' was pretty good, but it doesn't work now. People can't be convinced by logic, you know, one must have a quote or something.

Tom was from the beginning of the land.

A perfect time for an exemplar of True (Real) Natural Science, don't you think?

Tolkien should have implied that Bombadil's beginning lay soon after Valian Year 1500, when the Valar drove Melkor out of Arda and began to prepare it for the plants and animals. Bombadil would have awoken in that early time (or in some way came to self-awareness), which was the beginning of the land.

So I thought at first, and so I must think now. You say he was 'from the beginning'. Look at the time period you just described. Not only was this the beginning of the land, it was the beginning of days. For the time you just described for Tom's beginning, is verily the time seen in the first few paragraphs of Of the Beginning of Days.

Thanks for pointing that out!


Edited: I just figured out what the argument against the 'Tom was an Ainu' idea is. Just the opposite of what it was before, as it turns out: 'Tom began in Arda'.

[Michael Martinez]

You really put me to the test on this one. When I first read that citation you provided, I thought, "I missed the boat here." But then I recalled the "aborigine" citation, and it took me a while to find it. I looked at the Hastings letter again and noted the preamble.

I think there is a lot of justifiable confusion over Bombadil. Tolkien himself doesn't seem to be sure of what he really was. My theory is just like anyone else's theory: a guess, with its flaws and strengths.

But you're probably right. We've most likely come up with the best counter-argument to the "Tom is a Maia/Vala/Ainu" theory (one which I long held to myself).

[Nurvingiel]

I have a few questions about the Maiar myself. (Originally it was just about Balrogs, but then I got reading all those Balrog threads...) Sorry if any of these have actually been answered elsewhere.

1. Did Glorfindel defeat Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs)?
2. Which Balrog did Gandalf defeat in Moria, or is that not important?
3. At the time of the War of the Ring, where were the other Balrogs? I was under the impression that there were several. (Or, are their whereabouts either irrelevant or unimportant?)
4. Are the Istari also Maia?
5. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry aren't Maia right? The last half of this thread made me wonder about that.

Maybe this will spark some more interesting discussion.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think Nolendil told me long time ago, that although it seems by Tolkien's descriptions that there are many Balrogs - like in the war at the end of the First Age - Tolkien changed his opinion and said (wrote) that there actually weren't many Balrogs at all.
I think that all the other Balrogs were slain in that war by the Valar forces.

Yes, the Istari are all Maiar.

Nobody really knows what Tom Bombadil is... some beleieve he's a Maia. Tehre are many threads about it in the LotR forums.

[Attalus]

I, myself, incline to Michael's argument that he was a guardian spirit, not a maia at all. I have never liked the arguments that Tom was a maia, much less a Vala. We see in the posts above that JRRT explicitly denied that he was Eru, a silly concept if you ask me, as if God would enter into His creation in a trivial manner such as that, predating the Incarnation.

[Michael Martinez]

I have a few questions about the Maiar myself. (Originally it was just about Balrogs, but then I got reading all those Balrog threads...) Sorry if any of these have actually been answered elsewhere.

1. Did Glorfindel defeat Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs)?
2. Which Balrog did Gandalf defeat in Moria, or is that not important?
3. At the time of the War of the Ring, where were the other Balrogs? I was under the impression that there were several. (Or, are their whereabouts either irrelevant or unimportant?)
4. Are the Istari also Maia?
5. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry aren't Maia right? The last half of this thread made me wonder about that.

Maybe this will spark some more interesting discussion.

There is a great deal of confusion in Tolkien fandom because some people intermix the various texts as if they were concurrent with one another, and other people are more careful.

As for Glorfindel and who he killed, his Balrog was unnamed. Ecthelion killed Gothmog in "The Fall of Gondolin", but we don't know if that episode would have continued through to a full rewrite of the story.

After Tolkien scribbled a marginal note indicating there were probably no more than seven Balrogs, he didn't bother to go back and change anything. So, when Christopher Tolkien put together The Silmarillion, he didn't catch the passage at the end of the "Quenta Silmarillion" which implied that more than one Balrog may have escaped the War of Wrath.

Most probably (but nonetheless unprovably) Tolkien intended, at some point, to limit the number of surviving Balrogs to one (the one Gandalf slew in Moria).

And despite the fact that many people like my Bombadil theory, it remains nothing more than a theory. We don't know what Bombadil and Goldberry were. Tolkien apparently never wrote any definitive assertions about their natures.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks Michael, I always like reading your posts.

EDIT: Oops, I accidentally didn't see your post Radagast. Thanks! And I actually have no more questions now... I wish we could just delete posts, but there it is.

[Lenya]

What ecaxtely do you (Attalus) find different between a guardian spirit and a maia? I believe all guardian spirits are maiar, not that all maiar are guardian spirits.

[Earniel]

This thread pops up just in time! I was considering to make a thread about the Maiar myself.

I have been wondering whether there would have been much Maiar left in Middle-earth. When the Valar retreated to Aman, there is at least mention of one Maia, Melian, that remained behind. I was wondering whether more would have do so too.

I gather the list of Maiar mentioned in the Silmarillion was not exhaustive. So would some of those unnamed Maiar still reside in Middle-earth, even at the time of the War of the Ring? I'd like to hear people's thoughts and ideas on that.

[Michael Martinez]

I gather the list of Maiar mentioned in the Silmarillion was not exhaustive. So would some of those unnamed Maiar still reside in Middle-earth, even at the time of the War of the Ring? I'd like to hear people's thoughts and ideas on that.

At least five Maiar were in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring:

Sauron

Saruman

Gandalf

Radagast

the Balrog of Moria

[Earniel]

I may have worded my question wrongly. I didn't reckon with the Istari because they were sent to Middle-earth with a mission and because they didn't remain in Middle-earth since their very arrival. Nor did I consider the Balrog. I was thinking more of the unmentioned Maiar, would any of those have remained in middle-earth while the Valar retreated to Aman? Would there still be Maiar, perhaps servants to Yavanna for example, still tending to forests or fields?

[Michael Martinez]

I may have worded my question wrongly. I didn't reckon with the Istari because they were sent to Middle-earth with a mission and because they didn't remain in Middle-earth since their very arrival. Nor did I consider the Balrog. I was thinking more of the unmentioned Maiar, would any of those have remained in middle-earth while the Valar retreated to Aman? Would there still be Maiar, perhaps servants to Yavanna for example, still tending to forests or fields?

Well, if they are unmentioned, then finding references to them is a bit more challenging.

Tom and Goldberry don't qualfy, even if we all agree for the sake of discussion that they could be Maiar (because they are very obviously mentioned).

Orome's huntsmen might have visited Middle-earth with him. But I think the Valar ordered a general withdrawal from Middle-earth when the Noldor were exiled. Ulmo maintained limited contact with the Eldar of Beleriand (and Tuor), but even he did not intervene much.

I think the best window of opportunity for any Maiar to stay behind would be the beginning of the Second Age, when Eonwe remained in Middle-earth to tutor the Edain and to summon all the Elves to sail over Sea. But any leftover Maiar would not be part of the stories -- they aren't mentioned.

It's really an unanswerable question.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Regarding Bombadil & Goldberry, In the absense of definative info on their nature, I lean toward the simplist explainations that fits the know facts (seeming imortality, 'magical power', and a particular attachment to a area of land, and likely their before the elves). I would best guess them to be Maiar, who concerned with the creation of that part of ME, and after having expended much of the being into it, became attached to it, and decided to stay there. Bombadil in his bounds and Goldberry in the river, but later they bound to each other and share their areas. I find no need to create new categories of beings when an existing one will fit the know info well enough.

[Earniel]

Well, if they are unmentioned, then finding references to them is a bit more challenging. [...] It's really an unanswerable question.
I wasn't asking for references, I was just wondering about what people thought about it. Oh, just forget I asked...

[Michael Martinez]

I wasn't asking for references, I was just wondering about what people thought about it. Oh, just forget I asked...

My mistake. However, I do think there would have been undocumented Maiaric activity, at least early in the Second Age, in Tolkien's conception.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I suspect there may be large numbers of Maiar who have expended much of the being in creation and have gone 'rustic' or 'native' in areas of Arda that they have worked on creating. They could easily pass as elves for a indefinite period of time.

[mewhmag]

4. Are the Istari also Maia?



my take on this is that the Istari are Maia who have the explicit order to take part of the action in Middle-Earth, not in Valinor. Some of them staying true to their mission, some of them not. hum, i just wonder what would have happened if the Balrog stayed true...

[Lenya]

I think there are deffinately still Maiar left in ME. It is said in Sil that there were so many Maiar that not even the Valar knew their numbers. I find it highly unlikely that none of them remain in ME. After all, they all have their own jobs to do, who knows what might go wrong if they all simply leave?

[Radagast The Brown]

I think there are deffinately still Maiar left in ME. It is said in Sil that there were so many Maiar that not even the Valar knew their numbers. I find it highly unlikely that none of them remain in ME. After all, they all have their own jobs to do, who knows what might go wrong if they all simply leave?I'm pretty sure the Valar did know their numbers. It seems very unlikel;y to me at least, that they won't know all their "brothers".. it's not like the number of the Maiar was uncountable.
I thin the Valaquenta is from the point of view of the Elves.

[Finrod Felagund]

Well I believe I mentioned this in another place...but it is appropriate in this thread.

I do not believe that it is ever said who is the greatest of the maiar...however...

Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda...

And Olorin is said to be the wisest of the maiar.

Other than that we can say little...

[Lenya]

Well I believe I mentioned this in another place...but it is appropriate in this thread.

I do not believe that it is ever said who is the greatest of the maiar...however...

Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda...

And Olorin is said to be the wisest of the maiar.

Other than that we can say little...

This question depends on how you look at it. Eonwe might be the greatest maia from an earthly point of view, but if you look at the sky for example, surely Melien are the greatest. Therefore I do not think such a question can truly be answered without doing some of them injustice.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why were the Balrog's created as Maiar? Were they originally good bacause I can't imagine a good Balrog.

[Elemmírë]

TD, technically speaking, weren't Melkor and Sauron originally good? :p

[Wayfarer]

Yes.

[Lenya]

I do not believe Melkor was ever good, he just wasn't quite so evil at the beginning.

[Lenya]

Yes.

I am going to save this page, it is probably the first time in history that you agree with someone :evil: I'm shocked!

[Blackheart]

Concerning the Idea that Bombadil and Goldberry are "guardian spirits", One wonders how such a situation could come about...

If only Eru can create rational independent beings.... Then he must have been adding to the story in some way...

It does however remind me of a similar problem with Ungolient. She certainly isn't a vala, and I've never been sure she was a maia.

She was said to have originated when Melkor first looked upon Arda and lusted after it (or some such).

That makes me wonder about the origin of such indeterminate creatures and strong emotions. It's almost as if Eru was granting life of it's own to an idea of sufficient strength. I wonder if Yavanna could have had a similar episode at some point in the past...


It almost reminds me of Athena springing from the head of Zeus...

[Lenya]

That's a very interesting theory, I like it. Though I'm not sure. Aule couldn't make Dwarves into real beings without Eru's help, and I'm sure that he had very strong emotions concerning them. Unless you mean that Eru supported them. ?

[Blackheart]

Err. Well you kind of have to look at it from two perspectives. In the music, the Ainur sang the theme that Eru proposed, and later Eru made it manifest. Certainly at least some of the Ainur elaborated on the theme (Melkor for an obvious example), and there was interaction between different parts of the theme...

One can only assume that Aule was singing something about dwarves in there... and being a smithy sort of guy, I suppose hammering them out in a workshop is probably how he envisioned it...

Yavanna certainly didn't bring the ents into being by building them from scratch. They were there sleeping, all along it seems.

So it would seem that in a couple of cases at least, the method of an origin of a.."species"... is related to whoever it was that wove it into the music....

It makes me wonder if Bombadil was in the music all along, or if he was one of the "surprises"... There is of course no mention of which Vala he would have held in reverence. He was the master of himself after all...

The same with Ungolient. Was she in fact Melkor's Lust for Arda made manifest? If so, it's a neat little side story that Melkor's own lust almost consumed him... Oh wait it did, just not in that way...

[ItalianLegolas]

that is interesting... the Istari are Maiar i believe

[Blackheart]

Yes... they were maia... But they were also ainur, which means that they were there in the begining also, during the first music...

Not so Tom Bombadil or Ungolient, unless you posit that they were of the Ainur (either Vala or Maia).

Which doesn't seem likely for lots of different reasons...

[Manveru]

maiar werent ainur. the maiar were lesser than the ainur. its the valar who were ainur

[Elemmírë]

maiar werent ainur. the maiar were lesser than the ainur. its the valar who were ainur

From the Silm's index:

Ainur- 'The Holy Ones' (singular Ainu); the first beings created by Ilúvatar, the 'order' of the Valar and Maiar, made before Eä.

The Maiar are Ainur. :)

The same with Ungolient. Was she in fact Melkor's Lust for Arda made manifest? If so, it's a neat little side story that Melkor's own lust almost consumed him... Oh wait it did, just not in that way...

That's a really neat thought.

Um... nothing more to add until I read through this thread... :p

[Blackheart]

The Maiar are Ainur. :)


Yeah. Basically, if you were created pre-arda, you are an Ainu...

Which is one of the reasons I don't lean towards Ungolient being a fallen maia... The only reference to her origin we have is definately after the creation of Arda...

[Elemmírë]

Yeah. Basically, if you were created pre-arda, you are an Ainu...

Which is one of the reasons I don't lean towards Ungolient being a fallen maia... The only reference to her origin we have is definately after the creation of Arda...

True, but simply because she is not mentioned does not mean she did not come into being before Arda...

Though I think I'm beginning to lean towards the idea of her as something of a symbol, and idea made manifest... I remembered the ideas we were discussing in the Evil in ME thread, especially that of true evil really not existing and being nothing more than an emptiness (severely paraphrased) when I looked at the line, "...to feed her emptiness."

If she's not a representation of Morgoth's lust, perhaps she could be one of the evil he created (since according to legend at least he corrupted her and then she spurned him and became her own mistress), something that was beyond his control and would in the end destroy him...

[Blackheart]

Well.. except that apparantly no one can create independant beings with rational thought except Eru...

He might have animated Melkor's lust, becasue it was part of the music...

But I don't see Morgoth creating something more powerful than him, at least not purposefully.

[Minielin]

Well.. except that apparantly no one can create independant beings with rational thought except Eru...
But didn't Aule technically create the dwarves before Eru saw and he almost smited them? Or did they just not have rational thought? I need to reread...

[Radagast The Brown]

But didn't Aule technically create the dwarves before Eru saw and he almost smited them? Or did they just not have rational thought? I need to reread...The problem with the dwarves in their beginning, before Eru made them living creatures, was that they couldn't do anything unless Aule thought about it... it was beyond his powers to create life (as he knew himself).

[Blackheart]

Yep. The dwarves were Automatons before they were invested by Eru....

Which incidentally is the only (recorded) instance of Eru manifesting personally in any form or fashion in Arda after it's creation... (That I can recall). Any other time (usually Manwe) it's more like internal consultation and prayer... Though there is the incident about the downfall of Numenor, when the valar lay down their lordship for a time and Eru takes the wheel...

Still it's pretty significant that Eru appeared at the begining of the only other free "race" in Arda...

[Lenya]

That's actually true, I haven't thought of that. Though I must say it is a pretty important event to attend, so it makes sence.

[ItalianLegolas]

I think that maybe either Eonwe or Osse were the strongest...

[me9996]

I'd like to know about were the mirar came from :confused: :o :confused:

P.S.
Haveing a little bit of troble with the 90 second rule...

[Pytt]

The maiar? They are the same origin as the Valar, but have minor strenght and power. read the Silmarillion :)

[Maerbenn]

Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda...Christopher Tolkien says in HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring that the words in the published Silmarillion concerning Eönwë, “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda”, were “an editorial addition, made in order to prepare for his leadership of the hosts of the West at the Great Battle”.