Ar-Pharazon's Fleet

[Finmandos12]

How did Ar-Pharazon's fleet get through the Shadowy Seas and Enchanted Isles to Valinor, whereas no Elves except for Earendil could?

[easterlinge]

good question..........

Tough one, too.

I think the Elves didn't get through in the First Age because of the Curse of Mandos and the Ban(?), and they were shut out. But after the War of Wrath, the Elves were pardoned. The Elves could sail from Middle Earth to Valinor then.

Men could also come technically, but this was forbidden. It's like a top secret room with the door open really. You can enter, but you're damned if you do.

[UnStashable]

Yeah i think it says the seaward defense of valinor was lifted after the war of wrath, but didn't invidual ships of the faithful (ex. Amandil) try to sail into the West for Aid/Advice of the Valar but were blown off course and lost.

I think it might also be that Ar-Pharazon (spelling?) traveled with a large war fleet o many ships not just a small handful of vessels. Not even the ships of Falas had traveled in any great stregnth.

[olorin]

I think they were able to land in Aman because they were much closer to it than ME was. In the Akellabeth, it is said that from the top of Meneltarma (spelling?) one who was farsighted could see all the way to Tol Eressea.

[Ñólendil]

That's the right spelling, Menel 'heaven' + tarma 'pillar'.

[Finmandos12]

I was starting to wonder if anyone knew.

[Selwythe]

Actually, if you can see Tol Eressea and Aman from the tower and sail in that direction, I don't see how you can't get there.

[Finmandos12]

I knew you could see Tol Erresea from there. I just didn't know about the Shadowy Seas. Speaking of this, what did Ar-Pharazon plan to do to the Valar? Demand that they make him live forever? Or just kill them?

[Ñólendil]

He thought that his mere presence in Valinor would give him and all other mortals immortality.

[Michael Martinez]

Amandil's fate is not revealed. He may have reached Aman and withered (which is what an essay published in Morgoth's Ring suggests would have happened to a mortal who spent much time there).

Numenor was either planted where the defenses of Valinor had once stood, or lay within them. I don't believe there is any specific text in The Silmarillion which says that the Shadowy Seas were destroyed, but there is certainly no mention of them after the First Age. From about SA 600 onward, the Numenoreans were able to navigate the seas by themselves. And the Eldar of Tol Eressea often visited Numenor for the first couple of thousand years.

[easterlinge]

If the Valar sea-defenses were still there when Numenor was founded and settled, but the island simply lay within the defenses..... wouldn't that make it difficult for the Sea-Kings to navigate to and from Middle-Earth?

The Fleets carried tribute from many lands to Numenor, so either they had some special grace to pass the magic defenses, or the defenses weren't there anymore.



I've been feeling a little slow and dumb lately..... make this topic an interesting one, or I'll turn into Psy-Duck...... :confused:

Not that it's such a bad thing being Psy-Duck.

[Michael Martinez]

The Numenoreans had special graces. They were accustomed to putting a branch on the bow of their ships to invite the protection of Uinen, as "Aldarion and Erendis" indicates. But I don't think the defenses lasted beyond the First Age. There was really no need for them, and when the Numenoreans became rebellious they still don't seem to have incurred any special penalties for traversing the seas.