i figured this out all by myself

[ArwenEvenstar]

i remember a post in a really old forum that asked if orcs went to the halls of mandos. well im my mind the first orcs did because they were elves but so disorted and screwed up that they weren't elves anymore at all.



(pls dont think im crazy for having this post)

[Gandalf]

If I'm not mistaking Morgoth created the Orcs to ridicule the Elves.

Since all other races -- hobbits, man, elves -- go there I assume that each creation by a Vala goes there as well ...

[Comic Book Guy]

I don't think Men go to the Halls of Mandos, they go to the unknown place were only Eru knows. And if you go with the Theory that Hobbits evolved from Men they probally would go there.

[Finmandos12]

In The Sil, it says that men do go to the Halls of Mandos, but then go across the Outer Sea (Of Beren and Luthien).

[Ñólendil]

Finmandos, that's a speculation, but it may only actually be true of Beren, who was commanded by Lúthien to wait for her there, before his death. I don't know.

Gandalf, I'm a niggler. So here's a niggle for you: No Vala can create anything, although they can make. Tolkien was not so free with the word. Only Eru in his legendarium can create. But Morgoth did not even really make the Orcs either, as Frodo said he can only mock* (although my memory is hazy, he may have been specifically talking about Sauron, but that doesn't matter). Tolkien's latest view on Orcish origins was that they were corrupted from Men, but this depends on a very new conception, in which the legendarium was to become more in accord with the science of our reality. Men were to awaken and evolve much further back in time. Thus, we are perhaps to indeed fall back on the view that they were 'made' from corrupted Elves, or rather: the Elves were corrupted into Orcs, who bred after the manner of Men. I like to think both.

*Cf. also a line in the Silmarillion, referring to Morgoth of the Orcs: 'the maker only of their misery'.

[Gandalf]

I use the word "create" rather freely because of quite a number of reasons:
1) English is not my primary language, and sometimes the destinction between two words is rather vague to me, as we in Dutch have only one word for the two of them "maken", so forgive me.

Secondly, you are quite correct.

[Finmandos12]

Whats a speculation, Halls of Mandos or sailing across the Outer Sea? Speaking of it, is that a sea of water or something else?

[Gandalf]

knowing Tolkien it's probably something else :)

[Ñólendil]

Gandalf, sorry, I didn't know that. Anyway there is rarely a distinction between the two even in the minds of people whos native language is English.

Finmandos, that Men briefly go to the Halls of Mandos, but I was mistaken, it seems Tolkien decided this was a fact.

As for the Outer Sea, the Circles of Arda in that time period are not very clear to me, but I'm fairly sure were aren't talking about water.

[rashbold]

There are many accounts of the origins of the Orcs. Of course Melkor-Morgoth cannot create them, but merely corrupt in mockery of the One, just as the very fabric of Arda was corrupted by his evil, thus Arda Marred (Arda Hastaina). The best explanation I have encountered among the many "legends" concerning the origin of the Orcs is that Morgoth had many servants and followers, the most powerful among them were immortal, belonging indeed to the the Maiar; thus they were called the Úmaiar. Sauron, of course, was a Maia of Aule, early on corrupted into Melkor's service. So too were the Valaraukar, of lesser power but still formidable. And finally those assumed the fanar of what became the Orcs. Many of the great Orc-captains appeared again and again in the tales of the First Age, seeming never to die as the years wore on. They may have been the ancestors of the Orcs as we knew it.
It may be that Morgoth had captured some of the Quendi during their early days at Cuiviénen and made them into Orcsm but the Eldar themselves refuse to consider this as true, for the Elves are all in all an "unfallen" race. But the most cogent explanation is that many of the latter-day Orcs were descended from Men who were corrupted and made to mate with them, achieving the vilest of outcomes: "Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile".
Finally, it must be mentioned that for all that, they may have been irredeemable due to Morgoth's corruption, they were still Incarnates were bound by the same natural law, i.e., for though they must be fought with the utmost severity, they should not be dealt with the same cruelty and treachery that the Orcs deal with others, no matter the price (though understandably, not always heeded during the War of the Jewels).
See Morgoth's Ring, pp.416-421

[olorin7]

if the valar could not create, how do we explain the dwarves. were they not created by a valar?

[Wayfarer]

The dwarves were 'made' by auule, yes. But originally, I believe he simply carved them from stone. They had no free will (no souls), and the only think that differentiated them from statues was that aule animated them.

So, until illuvitar gave them life, they were merely puppets or automatons.

[Finglas]

Rashbold, I thought that the "Man- Orcs" were the Uruk- hai. They weren't created by Morgoth, but by Saruman.

[Ñólendil]

Actually the 'Men-orcs and Orc-men' I think must have been the 'Half-orcs and Goblin-men' of Saruman.