Tolkien's Racial and Polictical Implications

[Karia]

Hi,
I am new to this forum and I am preparing a text response on the racial and political themes in "The Hobbit" and in "The Lord of the Rings". Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.:)

[andustar]

well, I haven't got much to say about this myself, but you might find this (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/files/040101.html) useful if you haven't seen it already, also look around that area of tor.n there will be lots of other stuff, which I'm not going to bother to link to ;)

[Ben]

Welcome to the board.

One thing you might want to explore is how all the "swarthy men" (easterlings, etc) were evil and on the side of Sauron while the white men were the good guys...

[Ñólendil]

Which of course is not true. There were light skinned and swarthy people on both sides of the coin, you'll find if you read carefully. No skin colour whatsoever is given to the Easterlings we see in the narrative of the Lord of the Rings that I am aware of, although the Wainriders are called 'white-skins' in Tal-Elmar (Peoples of Middle-earth, Vol. XII of History of Middle-earth).

Remember those dun-skinned wild men from the Dunland fells, marching under the White Hand of Saruman? The Bree-folk were descended from them and thus also dun-skinned. Speaking of which, the Dead Men of Dunharrow, many peoples in Gondor, the Dunlendings, the Men of Bree-land, secretive hunter folk on the Cape of Eryn Vorn, the Halethrim, they all come from the same people.

Of Dwarves and Men, also published in my beloved Vol. XII reveals that some of the Beorians were swarthy. No, they weren't shunned from society and regarded as spies of Morgoth. They were just swarthy Beorians. In fact that whole Race were somewhat darker in skin than the related Marachians.

If you read the Minas Tirith chapter carefully, you may notice hosts of swarthy Men marching into the City for war against the Enemy. You may want to note the evil Black Númenóreans were mostly pale-skinned, of the House of Marach, thus probably generally golden haired as well.

There are countless goodly swarthy people and countless wicked white people. Similarly there are countless goodly white people and countless wicked swarthy people. The Middle-earth Tolkien 'discovered' is a world of innumerable shades of grey, just like ours.

[bombcar]

In fact, Sam is said to have brown hands, and the chapter where he wonders about the dead man from the south, shows that Tolkien is not racist, unless it is against orcs, which are actually another race.

[samwise of the shire]

It's not the dark skin that makes them evil nor the fact they're from the south it's the fact that they're fighting against Middle Earth.But what of Saruman?He's white and evil and he fights against ME so it goes both ways like Inoldonil said. The thing that gets me is that swarthy doesnt JUST mean dark it can also mean tawney or of a tawney complexion so most likely the Beornings and the Bree Men were Tawney or tan because they work in the fields and all that and when you work in the sun you become swarthy or tan. BTW Bombcar I think it most likely Sam was brown because of his work in the garden.
As for Politics.The government in LOTR could be considered a democracy but a democracy is unfair to the people and Aragorn is wise and just in his judgment so I think that it is a just government it's not a republic but it's not a democracy because Aragorn listens to the cries of his people,so say it is a just government that rules Middle Earth.
sam

er, miss samwise, that would be a monarchy...lovingly, your mom

[Ñólendil]

In fact, Sam is said to have brown hands, and the chapter where he wonders about the dead man from the south, shows that Tolkien is not racist, unless it is against orcs, which are actually another race.

Yes, all the Harfoots among the Hobbits had nut-brown skin. Bombadil is said to have brown hands too.

[ringbearer]

You must remember the era of Tolkien, and England's general mistrust of anything foreign. I do not think he was racist at all!

[Mr Underhill]

Karia-

Don't read too much into it. You know racism when you see it. If you have to scour LotR page by page with a highlighter to find obscure references, that should tell you something. Don't be misled by those who are so crazed about it that they point fingers where none are deserved, or even worse, don't become one of those people yourself.

[juntel]

"swarthy" men from the far south, ridding elephants...

nah! let's not read too much into that... :p

[Selwythe]

Here, I posted this some time back at Dunedain's Camp


I refer to the posts of Harad and other evil lands being metaphored as Asia and Africa.

In the LoTR movie site, there's an interview with Peter Jackson. He says that this portrayal of blacks as allies of the enemy and white as elves and men should not be interpreted as it seems. Because when Tolkien wrote the book, he wanted it as separate from reality as possible, it was during the period of the World Wars and he wanted it as different from reality as possible. Thus, this 'seeming' racism, Sam's homosexual bordering to Frodo and the weak portrayal of women should not be interpreted in modern context, but in a fantasy context, where the world and society is different. Jackson said that he personally believed that Tolkien wasn't racist since he was born in South Africa, fought in World Wars and was a professor.

I personally believe that Tolkien overlooked these issues when writing since these issues would not, and should not, be existent in a perfect society. And a perfect society he envisioned when writing the book. Tolkien should have delved on with his work like he did instead of worrying about petty accusations from unjustified book reviewers and politicians. Oh yes, not to mention how Star Wars had the good guys in white and the bad guys in black.

[Ñólendil]

[Edited: I made a post here (but I think Samwise was responding to the one above this), but I have decided it is wiser not to be involved]

[samwise of the shire]

Maybe you have'nt noticed this but back Tolkiens day it was SHAMEFULL to be a homsexual and those that were homesexual had to hide it from being scorned so I dont think that Tolkien would put homesexuality in his works. Let's make the ideas of love sraight here. Agape is what Sam has for his master,unconditional love no matter what Frodo does to him Sam still loves his master and always will.
Has anyone noticed how simalir LOTR is to the Bible? I mean the plot and everything? Redemption is the plot and the characters have obedience,courage,loyalty,kindness,forgivness,love ,trust,honesty,and self sacraficial spirits,but they are also normal people so we can relate ourselves to them. That is so cool.
By the way nut brown is TAN not BLACK,kind of like hispanic or hard working field hand.
Sam

[Comic Book Guy]

Samwise of the Shire is right, Homosexuallity was a very embarrassing thing to have in Tolkiens time. I learnt in history about brothers who were gay and eventually commited suicide because of it. Also remember that Tolkien was a religous Catholic and they were against homosexuallity

[Mr Underhill]

Hannibal rode and elephant as well, Juntel, and I don't think anybody has anything but respect for him. Why does putting somebody on an elephant automatically make a person a racist?

What's going on is that a mold has been created defining racism. Those who are a victim of this robotic formula define the sensation they feel when they are trapped in this mold as "getting the point." They see people outside the mold as racist, simply for the fact that they don't share the same space.

Let me define racism for you: Racism is as racism does. Who is hurt here? The men of the South are not disrespected and nobody is suggesting they're inferior. There is no racism.

Now, liberalism is as liberalism does. A popular and beloved author who is no longer with us to defend himself has his work tarnished by this modern version of a witch hunt, which was McCarthyism 50 years ago, and went by the name of The Inquisition many years before that.

[afro-elf]

By the way nut brown is TAN not BLACK,kind of like hispanic or hard working field hand.

Thats depends on what kind of nut.

Brown is brown. Sam ( Harfoots are browner of skin) LOTR pg 3 prologue .:cool:


YO! Whad'up wit dat

Brown skinned Sam gotta be da servant. :p :p

BUT he got 'emself a white gurl and was the MASSA of Bag end. You go boyEEE :p

The word swarthy ,nowdays, has a connotation of Mediterrean/Turkish tones and of unsavory character.

However, I came across a reference form Shakespeare that said something about a swarthy Ethiopian.

Well the they are usually darker than me. ( I'm a nice chocolatety color)
:D :p


In the SIL Bor and his sons were easterlings and were described as swarthy. ( maybe an excuse for some Barandundain)

I believe when the prof used swarthy in the book it was more of the "Turkish" type.

However, I as a RPG fan take the other swarthy meaning so I can play guys like me.

[sepulchrave]

right, here goes....
I do not believe there is racism in the Lord of the Rings. I also do not believe that there is any real evidence for a homosexual relationship between the two hobbits. I do believe that those who are looking for such things may be trying to put a Socio-Psycho-Sexual interpretation to a book to which it is almost impossible to apply. Here we have a book that resembles next to nothing in style that was written later than the medieval period. It is an epic, like the Norse sagas, Icelandic works, Beowulf, and Arthurian literature, about heroes, powerful talismans, quests and wizards. For Heavens sake it is not even this world we are talking about! To attempt to find sexual, psychological and any but the most rudimentary sociological elements within this book, is barking up the wrong tree on a colossal scale. One would be much better served, if one felt drawn to these lines of enquiry, to seek a true "modern" novel, a Steinbeck, Dostoyevsky, Hardy or Joyce; for The Lord of the Rings does not fit the bill. Sorry, but Tolkien would have said exactly the same thing.
There is one thing that should be mentioned, though, in all fairness. My grandfather came from the same generation as Tolkien, and I believe there were certain views that were commonly held by the majority of Englishmen of the time. One must remember that England, with the Empire, had enjoyed an extended period of almost unchallenged supremacy in the world, some three or four hundred years at least, and in the heart of every english school boy was ingrained the idea that "British is always Better", and that it was their Christian duty to bring light to savages in faroff lands, and raise them from their barbaric ways. History has shown the folly and cruelty that came out of this, but if one can understand the mindset, one comes to a point where there are certain things that are implicit, such as this; although I do not see racism, it is clear that both Tolkiens Haradrim and Corsairs, and CS Lewises Calormene, were stereotypical Mohammedan warrior types, As Christians, one Anglican, the other Catholic, they would have a view of the Islamic world that would be coloured completely by their colonial perception. The world they lived in was altogether more different than ours than most realize. If this is racism, then every white man has racists for ancestors, and perhaps that is a theme for another thread!

[Michael Martinez]

The Breelanders and Dunlendings, as well as many of the people of Gondor, were all swarthy-skinned. None of them are portrayed as evil. The Dunlendings are portrayed as misguided, even deceived by Saruman. The white-skinned Rohirrim, however, are portrayed as both heroic and vicious, even hunting Ghan-Buri-Ghan's people for sport.

The second worst villain in the story is Saruman, a white man, whose emblem is the white hand, and whose robes begin as white. Denethor also turns to evil, and he is also a white man.

There is a lot of racism in The Lord of the Rings, but it is expressed by the characters, not the author, and the story shows that racism is a fault to be overcome, or which leads to grave errors of judgement. The appendix deals with some of the racism issues, such as the Kin-Strife, which was the civil war Gondor's nobility fought over the purity of the royal bloodline. The king of mixed-heritage eventually defeated the usurper.

[luinilwen]

i don't think i could cover anything better than sepulchrave!

not only were his books written in a different society, but they were written of a different society also. modern issues (such as political correctness (is that a word???)) are to be explored or manifested in modern texts.

the harry potter books are written in a modern society about a modern society, and so cultural and racial diversity is present, such as having asian and african students at hogwarts. (although i doubt jk rowling is likely to tackle the issue of sexuality in her books - perhaps a wee bit inappropriate!)

that's my two cents :)

[Arathorn]

Hmm...

I am both "brown skinned" and Catholic and I do not believe that the books are racist.

Some individuals and peoples seem to be against other people and creatures such as orcs and trolls but remember, these are portrayed as having been corrupted by the dark lords Melkor and Sauron and the one ring:

Orcs from Elves
Trolls from Ents
Saruman
even Gollum who used to be Smeagol
as goes the other "tribes" who were closer to their realms.

Also, Tolien's world was written such that cultures didn't trust other cultures. The Lorien people were wary of everyone not from there as goes the shire folk. Celeborn warned against Fangorn and Treebeard warned against Lorien. The Rohirrim was made to be suspicious of outsiders by Saruman.

There are quite a lot of "us against them" sub themes among the races. I'm quite amused at middle earth because its one big sandbox as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I have yet to find anyone I know offline who thought of the works racist or took offense. At worst they're just not interested in the works.

[Lightice]

I'm afraid, that I have to say, that Tolkien was a racist as some degree. It's not about skin color. It's that people from other parts of Middle Earth are always evil at some degree. Numeronians, the Kings of Men were white skinned, as well as were elves, the most fair of races. All good guys were caucasian. No negroid heroes.
And of that mention of brown hands...I doubt, that it means negroid brown, but more likely simply tanned skin.
Another of my favourite writers, H. P. Lovecraft mentioned brown skin on some not-so-bad-buys (he didn't have really good guys) and that proves, that he didn't mean negroid. He was one of the greatest novel-writers on Earth, but he was very, very racistic. In his opinion, jews and other "lower breed" men were good only for slavery, and couldn't think rationally at any level, and that negro-folk were just human-looking apes. He wasn't a nice person, but he wrote so damn good novels, that I could apologise him most of his idioticness. He was human-hater anyway, so he didn't really harm anybody. He just wrote and wrote. He had many admirers, including Robert Bloch, who later on wrote Psycho.
Well, I went really far into lands of Off Topic on this, but I wanted to explain backrounds.

[Elfstone.]

No offense and I can't stress that enough but you people! :)
Tolkien spent to his dieing days telling people he just wrote a story a darn good one too. And no offense again but all these people come along and say he meant this by this and that by that and the reason there's few women is because of this and all that crap. Just let it be it was and is and forever will be teh greatest Fantasy novels ever. No need to find some fault in it that Tolkien never imagined himself.

No offense again ;)

Elfstone

[afro-elf]

Negroid to me has always made me laugh.

It brings to mind the image of black android.

[afro-elf]

All good guys were caucasian. No negroid heroes.

BUT many bad guys were fair skinned.


Saruman, Eol, Celegorm, Curufin, Ar-Pharazon ( makes me think of Louis Farakhan), Grima wormtongue. Tolkien even mentions about many Sindar serving Melkor.


The guy was writing a mythology of for Northern Europe.

Would you expect fair skinned heroes in a mythology of subsaharan Africa?


The Haradrim were not inherently evil. Recall Sam's pondering's about the " darkie", when Faramir's men attacked the Southrons.

And of that mention of brown hands...I doubt, that it means negroid brown, but more likely simply tanned skin.

What does Negroid brown mean.

Sade, Halle Barry, Lionel Ritchie, Toni Braxton and Vanessa Williams are "negro"


And so are Shaquille O'neal, Kofi Annan, Venus Williams and Pele.

Some Negroes can pass as white.

The term Negroid is in many ways a social as well as biological construct.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by afro-elf
The guy was writing a mythology of for Northern Europe.

Would you expect fair skinned heroes in a mythology of subsaharan Africa?

I think this answers everything. And a reasonable point it is. People need to stop trying to blend today's world with the past of another that doesn't even exist. Early Europeans saw their gods as they saw themselves (physically, that is), early Asians saw their gods as they saw themselves, and early Africans saw their gods as they saw themselves. Same goes for every other ethnic group or culture you want to mention. This was European Mythology taking place in a European land/climate. All in all, what can you expect?

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by afro-elf


What does Negroid brown mean...

...Some Negroes can pass as white...


like the guy who keeps looking at the "man in the mirror" who calls himself "Bad" but says that its ok coz he's a "Smooth Criminal", denies any relationship with "Billy Jean", thinks he can "Fly" and doesn't care if your "Black or White"


:p sorry...coudn't help it :D

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Lightice
[B]I'm afraid, that I have to say, that Tolkien was a racist as some degree. It's not about skin color. It's that people from other parts of Middle Earth are always evil at some degree. Numeronians, the Kings of Men were white skinned, as well as were elves, the most fair of races. All good guys were caucasian. No negroid heroes.

Most of the Numenoreans became evil. Many, if not most, of Gondor's people at the end of the Third Age were dark-skinned.

To suggest that all good guys were white and all bad guys were dark is completely absurd, and reveals a severe lack of knowledge regarding the book -- or prejudice.

[afro-elf]

To Arathorn


Well you know, he has been messing around with "Dirty Diana" who is a "Liberan Girl" who he thinks is " Just that Bad" and even though they are "living off the wall" and staying at the "heart break hotel" they are trying to "keep it in the closest". But I better be careful and "beat it" because he is "dangerous"

Wow that was a" thriller" :p :D

but maybe he "doesn't give a damn about us"

[Arathorn]

Hey Afro-Elf

hope he's "happy" with himself when he's taking about that "PYT" he calls "ben" ....

[emplynx]

I don't believe that any of the characters are homosexual. As someone said before, Sam has agape (unconditional) love towards Frodo and would go as far as giving his life for Frodo.
I would like think that my best friend and I have this same sort of Agape love that Jesus talked about. I think that I would give my life for his if I had to.
Some people might say that we are "gay" but we are nothing of the sort, we just have the same love for one another that Sam had for Frodo.

[afro-elf]

Arathorn

LOL

[Arathorn]

emplynx,

I agree with you on both counts. I must admit though that there are people in my area that did get ideas just because there was a dearth of male-female interaction compared to the all the strong male bonding that went on in the movie.

[bropous]

I must disagree with you, lightice, and voice my agreements with elfstone, afro-elf and Rogue Elf. This was a story written to provide England with its own mythology, and sorry, most "Negroid" individuals were pretty much absent from that island throughout most of its history. I don't think Tolkien meant in any way to cast those of greater melanin content in the dermis as all bad or evil. Also, as has been pointed out, most of the "bad guys" were of a supposedly Caucasian descent.

also, in his "Letters", Tolkien time and again takes stances which belie any implication he was being racist in any of his writings. He was born in South Africa, and knew the mindset of that land, and yet when Christopher was stationed in Sud Afrika JRR really put down the "apartheid" concept. Also, he stood up to the German publishers who wanted to publish the Hobbit in 1938 when they required him to prove he was not of Jewish descent.

I think, lightice, I understand you correctly that you are saying it was HP Lovecraft who was:

"...very, very racistic {NOTE: The term in English is "racist," but good try! :)}. In his opinion, jews and other "lower breed" men were good only for slavery, and couldn't think rationally at any level, and that negro-folk were just human-looking apes..."

If it is Lovecraft you mean here, I don't think I can really agree his writings proved that, but your later statement that he was just a "human-hater" is a lot more close to the mark. I think Lovecraft pretty much hated everybody. I am open to discussion on that matter, however.

As for the relationship with Sam and Frodo being in any remote way homosexual, that is absolutely off the mark {I forgot who made it}.

Good points you folks have made, whether I agree with them or no....

[Kevin McIntyre]

The racial distinctions contained within Tolkien's mythology is much different than modern or ancient views of race. There are no caucasian, Negroid, or Mongoloid races within the Circles of Ea.

Also the whole concept of race is a personal one. There are no biological races really. Physiological differences are tied to geographic locations. Things like skin tone, body shape, body hair, nose and eye shape are dictated more by the environment than anything else, and I do not mean in an evolutionary sense.

[afro-elf]

I do not mean in an evolutionary sense.

In what sense do you mean it in?

[Kevin McIntyre]

in the sense that if you take a dark skin individual from the equatorial regions of the planet and placed him in the northern (or southern climates) the environment will affect his physical appearance over time, as well as that of his off-spring (regardless of genetic mutation or drift). I.E. his skin-tone will lighten over time, chances are his children will be shorter etc. And of course the reverse will be true. Not to say a black man will look like a scandinavian after 50 years in the north. All of this varies with the individual as well. Of course over longer periods of time evolution does play its part and black populations will lose their skin tone over much longer periods of time(many generations)

[bropous]

Of course, Kevin, there is only one human race, homo sapiens sapiens, and within that race are five recognized "chromotrophs", color variations: Melanesian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian and Amerind. There is not real difference between any of the chromotrophs, only cosmetic; internal organs, appendages, all the same for all five.

Of course there doesn't seem to be this [apparent] development in Tolkien's world. No seeming separation in his known world into five chromotrophs, and the definiton of "swarthy" could either be just short-term sun-damage to skin, producing additional melanin to compensate or actual full-fledged chromotrophing carried by genes from generation to generation.

Eventually, the five chromotrophs will end up blending genetically and disappear as distinct groupings. Guess some folks will have to resort to hair color to feel superior, n'est-ce pas?

[afro-elf]

But the enviornment affecting populations IS evolution.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by afro-elf
But the enviornment affecting populations IS evolution.

environment affecting population through generations - that is evolution

I mean environment affecting an individual.

[afro-elf]

Gotcha'

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by bropous
Of course, Kevin, there is only one human race, homo sapiens sapiens, and within that race are five recognized "chromotrophs", color variations: Melanesian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian and Amerind. There is not real difference between any of the chromotrophs, only cosmetic; internal organs, appendages, all the same for all five.



Color variations are only one means that people commonly use to classify races. Any varient can (and is) used, which in affect makes race classification a tenous endeavor.

[bropous]

And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye....

I can see it now....."Hey! Fourteen-scaler! Get away from that water fountain...it's a fifteen-scale fountain only!"

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by bropous
And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye....

Which is why I say we shouldn't bother.

"Hey! This is a new species! It thas 16 scales around the eye!"
*Pluck*
"Put it in with the 15 scalers."

"Look! A new species of beetle! It has an extra pair of spots on it's shell!'
"What? That's Magic marker!"


Incidentally, It is my firm belief that all 'negroid' people are inherently evil.

Come ON!

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by bropous
And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye....

I can see it now....."Hey! Fourteen-scaler! Get away from that water fountain...it's a fifteen-scale fountain only!"

Except that two species do not (and in most cases) can not reproduce sexually. Whereas the arbitrary classification by race has no biological rational.

[bropous]

Well, it may not be the most definitive quote by Tolkien on the political aspects of the LotR, but here goes:

"[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (afterthe primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that wihtout the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

I guess this is part of why I have felt the books have made such an impression on me. It is not the lesson that one has to be mighty or bold or well-known to make a difference in life. Frodo and Samwise are "everyman", achievable models of ethical behavior in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. The actions of the smallest among us can begin events which bring down entire nations. Or preserve them. Wonderful sentiments from a wonderful man. It is a real benefit to society that so many new millions of Tolkien readers will learn this lesson. There will be some that miss it, but the positive lesson won't get by the majority of them.

Oh well, rant off. Still a nice quote. :)

[bropous]

Well, actually, Kevin, there are a good number of closely related fish species which do interbreed when territories overlap. It's distinct species within the same genus, and they do interbreed, and not just infertile hybrids.

Just to be clear: My original point on the race issue is there is only ONE race, and that cosmetic differences make no individual better than any other. For any reason, no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic.

Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group...] :)

[afro-elf]

Incidentally, It is my firm belief that all 'negroid' people are inherently evil.

ROTFLMHO:D

[Wayfarer]

Yep! And they don't have a sense of humour, either!

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by bropous
Well, actually, Kevin, there are a good number of closely related fish species which do interbreed when territories overlap. It's distinct species within the same genus, and they do interbreed, and not just infertile hybrids.

Just to be clear: My original point on the race issue is there is only ONE race, and that cosmetic differences make no individual better than any other. For any reason, no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic.

Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group...] :)


the exception proves the rule. Species classification (however inpreice) is a valid form of classification, whereas racially is not - which I think is your point (and mine).

You would be surprised who is Inuits, and that they have Internet Access.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre
You would be surprised who is Inuits, and that they have Internet Access.

I'm from the Rural US, and we connect by Carrier Pigeon. :p

[Kevin McIntyre]

define rural. I live in what is considered rural, but talk about a silly classification - everythings only twenty - thirty minutes from here

[Wayfarer]

I live in South Dakota...

I'm Vicaraously Rural.

[Arathorn]

Wayfarer,

Man, them pigeons of yours must be really fast. Are they related to those Hogwarts owls, by any chance?:D

[Wayfarer]

No...

They're Hybridized with Great Eagles.

You wouldn't believe the Packet Size I get on these babies!

[afro-elf]

Yep! And they don't have a sense of humour, either!

OOPS!, I forgot to place that in my previous post.


I guess I'm inherently the Lord of Typos.

I drove through S.D. once. It looked the same in all directions.

[Arathorn]

Afro Elf

Unless you are also an inherent liar about your profile, here's wishing you a happy birthday dude..

[afro-elf]

Thanks.


Nice having you aboard.

It says you are in Manilla. Are Phillipino?

[Arathorn]

Yup..

you can find us just about anywhere you go and in all shapes, sizes, and skin tone.

[afro-elf]

A large number of your compatriots work here in Saudi.

However, I can only speak to the women when I go to the hospital or clinic.

I'm getting very good and getting vague illnesses. :)

They ( the women) have it even worse than I do here.


It's really a Nazi Muslim regime here.

[Nibs Cotton]

As far as classification,there is only Homo Sapien,but to say there is only one race is absurd thinking,there are many different races,and cultures.To be an idealist is something for future generations to strive for,but lazy in theory.To realize there are many differences in humans,and to try and understand these differences,and to except each culture,is being a realist,and this is much better,and shows greater respect to those you have yet to understand,and learn from.The only problem with being an idealist is,that its foundation is always looking for solutions tomorrow,when the same problem exist today,idealist,also have a habit of using political correctness,to stifle any difference in opinion,or just wave the politcal correctness brush over problems,and saying that the rules are now in place to fix them,when many questions are left unanswered.At first thought it would be neat to have John Lennon as your countries leader,but wouldn't things run much better if Martin Luther King was in charge?Although M.L.K.used idealogy in his speeches,he was a realist when it came to overcoming diversity.A person should never forget his roots.man hasn't for thousands of years,and thousands of years from now,man will still know his origin.The only type of racism,that I believe J.R.R. Tolkien was ever guilty of,is the unknowing kind,simply because of his origin geographically.It was noted by the experts that Tolkien was very fond of Northernness,there is nothing malice in this.Nor did I sense racism,or homosexuality in his work.

___________________________________________
qouted by bropous:



no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic.
Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group


____________________________________________
This bothers me,he puts down a paticular race,then says he is"just kidding",in the belief there aren't any of that race to read his joking statement.What if there were?and could you inject any race into that statement,and it still have the same overtone?I know most will feel that I am going overboard,and maybe so,but would you feel the same way if you were Inupiats,Yupik,or any other proud native of Alaska?And yes I am biased,but it is to a paticular persons thinking process.

[Kevin McIntyre]

There are many cultures, but however race is not a biological classification, it is politically based.

[afro-elf]

Nibs Cotton

Why did you single out bropous?

What about my buddy wayfarer? Who posted:

Incidentally, It is my firm belief that all 'negroid' people are inherently evil. Yep! And they don't have a sense of humour, either

Or my own



Even though afro here means one of African descent as opposed to hair style

But that is a hilarious image an elf with a big 1970’s super bush

I can see legolas with a mega-fro, bell bottoms and platform shoes
Running gently across the snow at Cadehoros (SP?)

What follows may be offensive to those who are, post-modernist, deconstructionist, super liberal, politically correct types or basically anyone who suffered from the post 60’s educational system and doesn’t know it

The history of the first age by afro-elf

See we was chillin’ in da mudda land when this giant valar ( Englishman/American imperialist) comes and says “we are gonna take you to the promised land”

But this evil valar melkor was the leader of a group of people called nazis and they had had captured many of our youths and made them orcs. Now orcs were like our own people but they were corrupted and called themselves niggas instead of the avari word Negro. Basically they were loud and rude and gave all the rest of us a really bad name

Anyway because of melkor the german nazi valar, we did trust this orome dude And we send 3 of our homeys to check it out. They came back and said cool. Except for elwe who was now called thingol. Thingol did trust the valar who he called “whitey” but he did manage to throw down some afro-elf love on one of their woman: melian who he brought back to the motherland. She was down with us and thingol and her made the funkiest land in middle earth. Doraith. We just chilled. Playing smooth jazz, cards and basket ball.

our orc cousins though busied themselves with gangster rap and drive bys and learning black speech (aka) ebonics

now the sell out noldar come back messin’ up our stuff. They’ve been corrupted by whitey and are full greed and venegence over some jewelry

thingol said let whitey’s lackey’s make their own war an the nazis

but whitey’s disease affected us all. Thingol had a fine mulatto daughter who wanted to marry an edain (aka latino, short lived but fast breeding)
we were like at least he aint no sell noldar. Besides he’ll be dead in a few years and we’ll live forever

but NO, he had to go ask for a silmaril. So what happens? He gets killed by dwarves( the forefathers of jews and arabs, they WERE one group at one time) they have long beards will go to war over slights, sequester their women so none can see them and like gold and have a rep for being greedy and stubborn)

then the valar and all their sell out lackey’s wage war in the motherland and mess it up so bad that they destroy it. (talk about exploiting a people)
so after the first age we kinda all went back east to closer to the original home to get back to our roots with our moriquendi( dark-elf) leaders to lorien and greenwood the great.

Hey even galadriel fell for some of the afro-elf love. Celeborn is moriquendi and when they say dark speakers dey jus be jealous of dee afro elf love talk we be don put on some of dere finest women

Speaking of my homey why is everyone down on my man celeborn
He got the finest white woman on the planet, she was tutored my melian i guess she learned well, then some runt dwarf comes to his kingdom and makes a pass at his wife and you expect him to chill?

Come on the dwarves killed his uncle and sacked his home
Then greedy bastards awaken a balrog that leads to the death of amroth another
Kinsman and great lord

peace out


I'm a minority and I didn't take offense to any of the above. I thought that they were funny

What I find interesting is that you did not comment on my NON humorous bash were I said


It's really a Nazi Muslim regime here.

I'm curious to your thoughts on these.

[bropous]

Nibs, simply enough, maintain a sense of humor in things.

It was meant as a joke, a tangential reference to the stupidity of ANY version of prejudice. I could have used "Tamils" or "Gurkhas" or even "Ubangis" and still have had the same meaning. Afro-elf has a point: Why go after such an innocent joke by me when there have been several MUCH more potentially offensive comments by others? I get their humor, but if you get so bent out of shape by a backhand joke about Eskimoes, then why didn't you come down on their jokes before? Hmmmm? Selective outrage, mayhaps?

But as far as "political correctness," that is far more a common tool in the hands of those who celebrate and perpetuate the differences between people, not of the "idealists" who tend to view humankind as one race, with only minor differences between people. Seeing people as equals sorta removes the knee-jerk obeisance to the "politics of victimhood." Capiche?

As for Tolkien being an "unknowing racist," JRR was plenty aware of the spectre of racism in his homeland, South Africa. When Christopher was stationed there in WWII, JRR wrote this:

"As for what you say or hint of 'local' conditions: I knew of them. I don't think they have much changed (even for the worse). I used to hear them discussed by my mother; and ever since have taken a special interest in that part of the world. The treatment of colour always horrifies anyone going out from Britain, & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately], not many retain that generous sentiment for long..." Letters, page 73.

So, Nibs, Tolkien was painfully aware of the blight of "racism" [more correctly, "culturism"] in South Africa, and other places, for that matter. To say he was unaware of racism just because he was brought up in the "Northern Realms" seems to preclude the ability of any individual to be aware of conditions in other areas for people different from said individual. Tolkien was in no way unaware of "racism."

[Ñólendil]

I just wanted to put in (in response to comments made on the first and second pages of this topic) that the Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion is not part of any mythology for England. That was The Book of Lost Tales.