Galadriel in exile?

[galadriel]

After the destruction of Beleriand, was Galadriel still in exile?

Tolkien's later writings say that since she was one of the leaders of the rebellion, she was not permitted to return to Valinor. This seems to chime with LOTR, which implies that she is unable to return. Only by her refusing to take the One Ring, a symbol of the power she once desired, is she pardoned.

However, the Silmarillion says that she and Celeborn were unwilling to forsake Middle-earth. A few of his earlier post-LOTR essays agree with this. This would make sense: they both loved their homes, and Galadriel was probably too proud at that point to admit that she had been wrong in coming to Middle-earth in the first place. In this scenario, her longing for the West in LOTR can be explained away by the fact that it is her duty to remain in Middle-earth as long as Sauron is there, since she is a ringbearer.

A compromise between the two that I read at some website, but have not seen supported by Tolkien's writings, is that she refused to apologize for her misdeeds and was therefore not allowed to return. Again, by refusing the Ring, she atones and is permitted to return without apology.

Personally, I don't think that the Valar would hold a grudge against the one remaining leader of the rebellion (all the others were dead!) and punish her, but Lord of the Rings seems to indicate otherwise. My favorite solution is the compromise above, but I'm not sure if it's based on Tolkien's ideas at all.

What I really want to know is, what's the popular consensus? Do *you* think that Galadriel was in exile? And what was Tolkien's opinion on the matter when he wrote Lord of the Rings?

[webwizard333]

Having never read Sil. I'm not sure of the answer, but I would think she'd be pardoned for all the good she had done in Middle Earth.

[Tar-Elenion]

"[Galadriel] was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."
Quoted from 'The Road Goes Ever On'.

[Kyote Fields]

Ok,
I had heard about Galadriel being in exile, but I'm still muddy about the details.
Who did she revolt against? The Valar? Was this the elf version of the Numenorians going against Valinor? :confused:
And if the Valar do hold grudges, boy, do they hold them for a long time - 2000 to 3000 years!! ;)

[Finmandos12]

I don't think revolt is the right word. They disobeyed them, but did not attack them like the Numenoreans.

[Ñólendil]

Read The Silmarillion! You'll find your answers there. All the Ñoldor who left Aman for Middle-earth, following Fingolfin or Fëanor rebelled against the Valar, and their descendants also were regarded as Exiles. After the overthrow of Morgoth the Ban was lifted and they were allowed to go back, but Galadriel out of pride refused the summons. It later became her belief (strengthened no doubt by the Downfall of Númenóre, when Valinor and Eressea removed from the Circles of the World) that she was shut out from the Blessed Land forever and could not return. Thus her despair seen in The Ring Goes South. 'SÃ* vanwa ná, Rómello vanwa, Valimar! Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar! Nai elyë hiruva. Námarië!' = 'Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar! Farewell! Be it that even thou shalt find Valimar! Be it that even thou shalt find it. Farewell!'

The Rebellion was indeed regarded as the Fall of the Ñoldor. Indeed the song telling of the first Kinslaying and the evils of that time was called the Ñoldolantë, the Fall of the Ñoldor. That was made by Maglor son of Faenor, who took part in it.

Speaking of Galadriel and Maglor, does that quote you typed out (Elenion) mean Maglor had 'died' before the Ban was lifted? Something very similar is said in the last chapter of the Silmarillion proper, on the same page (in my edition) that tells of Maglor's sorrowful wanderings beside the Sea. So I've been thinking about it for some time now. Think he died of grief, or killed himself at last?

Edited: I looked up 'revolt' as I wasn't entirely sure of the meaning either. It doesn't imply any sort of attack, just renunciation.

3000 of our years is probably not regarded as very long to the Valar. For of old a Valian Year corresponded to well nigh ten years of the Sun, and 100 of these years (almost 1000 of our years) was a Valian Age. So I guess 3000 years of the Sun=app. 300 Valian years (three Valian Ages, the time spent by Morgoth in Mandos). As they are theoretically immortal, even 300 years wouldn't seem as long to them as it does to us.

[Finmandos12]

I always wondered about that too. If he didn't kill himself, then he would have drowned when the sea rose after the war of wrath.

[Tar-Elenion]

Inoldonil:
I cannot say that is what the quote means.
I would say it does _imply_ that as does the statement in LotR App. A "after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their [Elrond and Elros] descendants"; and from the Shibboleth "Gil-galad... [was] the last male descendant of Finwe except Elrond the Half-elven", though the Shibboleth statement is technically not true (there were plenty of male Numenoreans descended (at great removes) from Finwe) and the LotR statement does not take into account Galadriel (or is refering only to those who were Kings of the Noldor in Middle-earth (after the rebellion), in which case it does not need to include Maglor either since Feanor was (arguably) not a King.
Of course JRRT was not likely thinking about Maglor's fate when writing these passages.
There is an account wherein Maglor remained with Elrond for a time after the end of the First Age, but JRRT never says what ultimately happened to him.

[Ñólendil]

Finmandos, good point, didn't think of a death in the destruction.

Elenion, you're full of surprises! Do you remember where you read that account?

I imagine in the end, the ultimate fate of Maglor was something intentionally left an enigma by Tolkien.

[galadriel]

thanks, inoldonil. i've always tried to reconcile the words of LOTR and the Sil, and you did it quite nicely.

i thought that maglor died in the destruction of beleriand, but I could be completely wrong. I honestly don't remember.

[Ñólendil]

You're welcome, but I should correct myself. I was reading the Galadriel and Celeborn (and Amroth) section of Unfinished Tales last night. Tolkien always (when he remembered) felt bound by what was published in his life.

As Tar-Elenion pointed out, Tolkien had said in Road Goes Ever On (which I don't have, C. Tolkien pointed it out in the UT chapter) that a ban was set upon the return of Galadriel. Tolkien forgot he said that, but I think we should feel bound by it. He explains it more fully in a Letter. The ban was not lifted from those who were among the leaders of the rebellion against the Valar. She was a princess of the Noldor and was definitely an Exile. As has been stated, she was the last of the leaders of the Exiles (including Maglor?) so she alone after the War of Wrath was not free from the Ban.

[Tar-Elenion]

It is an early account given in SoME, 'the Quenta', last paragraph of $18, Q II version ( pg. 162 of hardcover edition).

[Ñólendil]

Thanks! I haven't read much of it, but luckily I have that book.

[galadriel]

Tolkien's words in The Road Goes Ever On seem kinda incongruous with the Silmarillion, but I guess you're right, Inoldonil, we *should* feel bound by Tolkien's writings that were published in his lifetime. Personally, I like the Unfinished Tales version better. Oh well. I guess I really should get around to reading The Road Goes Ever On one of these days.

[Ñólendil]

As should I! :)

[Tar-Elenion]

Query: How does what was published in RGEO seem incongruous with what is in The Silmarillion?

[galadriel]

It really depends how you interpret it.

Yet not all the Eldalie were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt....Among those were Cirdan the Shipwright, and Celeborn of Doriath, with Galadriel his wife, who alone remained of thsoe who led the Noldor to exile in Beleriand.

This could mean, as I thought, that Galdariel refused to forsake Middle-earth, staying of free will.

It could also mean that Celeborn refused to leave, and stayed with Galadriel instead (who, we must assume, stayed for reasons other than free will, such as a ban). Depends how you look at it.

BTW, I guess this solves your Maglor debate: according to this quote, Galadriel alone remained of the leaders of the rebellion.

[Ñólendil]

Yes, this is certainly said in the same chapter as that which speaks (or does not speak) of the fate Maglor. But what happened to him?

[Finmandos12]

Like I said, we seem to only have two options if the Sil is correct: he killed himself, or he drowned when the sea rose.

[Tar-Elenion]

Ah yes. But what should be noted is that much of this was written by CT (or drawn from disparate early sources
) not JRRT who never got around to rewriting the earliest versions of 'The Voyage of Earendil' (where Galadriel did not exist).