Elven Kings

[Finmandos12]

Who do you think was the best Noldor king?

[easterlinge]

If you'd said "Elven King" only, I'd say THingol.

But since you said "Noldor King" I'd say Fingolfin. It takes a lot of courage, personality and strength to lead the majority of Noldor across Helcaraxe Ice.

And no other Elf attempted personal combat with Morgoth!!!

[Elvellon]

But Fingolfin wasn’t the wisest of all, is crossing of the Helcaraxe was motivated by pride and revenge, and led to the deaths of many of is people during the crossing, and in ME. Fingolfin’s brother, Finarfin was much wisest, he did kept his wits during the quarrel of the noldor princes in Tuna, and returned home after the Doom of Mandos, keeping at least part of is people safe.:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Without a doubt, I would say Finrod Felagund. He ruled the largest Noldorin realm in Middle-earth, and was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor. Tolkien even describes him as being the wisest of the Exiled Elves.
I will probably get some heat for this, but I think people give too much credit to Fingolfin. Not that I dislike him, but he had alot of help from other Noldorin lords in leading the great host of the Noldor accross the ice, Finrod being one of them. Also, I have never been especially impressed by Fingolfin's battle with Morgoth. Although it was brave, it was also foolish. There was never any hope of Fingolfin being victorious, and him being a wise Elf, must have known that, but it seems that the challenge was made more out of rage then wisdom. Fingolfin's fall was sad though.
As for Thingol, true, he is not a Noldor, but he is a jerk. I blame him for the death of Finrod.

[Captain Stern]

Yeah why do people like Thingol so much?

I think he's a jerk too :o

[galadriel]

I've never cared much for Fingolfin... don't really *dislike* him, but he seems to be just another brave Noldor. And some of his actions were really unwise, such as the battle with Morgoth. Finarfin and Finrod were both much more prudent.

What's wrong with Thingol? Okay, so he was mean to Beren, but what was he supposed to say? "Hello, Beren, of course you can marry my only daughter, so that she can become mortal and die! Don't worry about the fact that we'll be parted in the afterlife and I'll probably never see her again, it's no problem at all!" You can't blame him *too* much for overreacting.

[Finmandos12]

Finrod is my personal favorite, for the reasons above. I also like Fingon, because of his brave rescue of Maedhros that united the two Noldor factions. Fingolfin may have been foolish sometimes, but he was honorable, and was in favor of attacking Morgoth when all that Feanor's sons wanted to do was have banquets and whatever else they did in their spare time.

[Theodred]

Finrod!
Wise and loyal, he was a great elf! I was sorry when he died! :(

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by galadriel


What's wrong with Thingol? Okay, so he was mean to Beren, but what was he supposed to say? "Hello, Beren, of course you can marry my only daughter, so that she can become mortal and die! Don't worry about the fact that we'll be parted in the afterlife and I'll probably never see her again, it's no problem at all!" You can't blame him *too* much for overreacting. Oh, but I can. In the first place, Thingol had a prejudice for men, long before Beren came along. In the second place, when Beren did come along, he sent him on a mission that in his mind assured Beren's death. He also knew of the oath that Finrod had sworn to Barahir when Beren showed him the ring. Finrod was Thingol's nephew, his blood, and he gave that no consideration. He knew that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. Thingol changed after Beren and Luthien returned with a Silmaril. As for being a loving father, he put his daughter at risk by sending her beloved on such a quest. As for being a husband, I will never understand Why one of the Maia would make such a choice. It seems that Thingol lived off of Melians power. I don't find him to be a particularly wise elf either. She could have had her pick, Why him? YUCK!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Theodred
Finrod!
Wise and loyal, he was a great elf! I was sorry when he died! :( Absolutely. One of the greatest, and maybe most under rated, or unrecognized Elves in the story by fans. A true hero.

[Finmandos12]

I almost cried when he died. Almost.

[Captain Stern]

Finrod is Thingol's nephew?

I thought Finwe married a Vanyar elf not a Teleri elf.

Thingol didn't send Luthien on Beren's quest, he actually locked her up to keep her from going untill she escaped.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Finrod is Thingol's nephew?

I thought Finwe married a Vanyar elf not a Teleri elf.

Thingol didn't send Luthien on Beren's quest, he actually locked her up to keep her from going untill she escaped. I know it is confusing. You are thinking of Finarfin, who was originally Finrod. Finrod Felagund was originally Inglor the eldest son of Finarfin, but later he became Finrod. After he built Nargothrond with the aid of the Dwarves, they bestowed the title of Felagund upon him, meaning hewer of caves, so thereafter, he was called Finrod Felagund. Yes he is Thingol's nephew. Finrod's father married Earwen the daughter of Olwe who was Thingol's brother. So to claify, Finwe married Indis a Vanyarin Elf, who was the mother of Finarfin and Fingolfin and grandmother of Finrod and Galadriel who were brother and sister. I hope this helps clear up the confusion a little.
As for Thingol not sending Luthien with Beren, true, but the events that transpired came out of his plan and desire to have Beren die which endagered Luthien instead of excepting her love for Beren. When Thingol layed out this plan, he set a chain of events iin motion that would later lead to the death of Beren and the grief of Luthien which killed her, and also the death of Finrod. I think another good example of Thingol's selfishness and pride, was when Hurin gave him the Nauglamir (Spelling) of Finrod, and he took it with such greed and had the Silmaril placed within it. Of course that was the death of Thingol. So, not only did his greed and pride destroy his daughter's life, her husband's life and Finrod's, it was his own downfall as well.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
I almost cried when he died. Almost. I did. It was awful.:(

[Captain Stern]

Oh, I confused Finarfin with Finwe silly me.


"Finrod's father married Earwen the daughter of Olwe who was Thingol's brother. "

So Thingol is Finrod's '2nd Uncle' and Luthien is his 'aunt'

[Captain Stern]

great uncle i mean not a 2nd uncle :mad:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Oh, I confused Finarfin with Finwe silly me.


"Finrod's father married Earwen the daughter of Olwe who was Thingol's brother. "

So Thingol is Finrod's '2nd Uncle' and Luthien is his 'aunt' I think Luthien is Finrod's cousin.

[Ñólendil]

Why do people like Thingol? You know, plenty of people like Morgoth. He's a cool character.

Finrod isn't Lúthien's cousin. Not first cousins. Finrod's mother is Lúthien's first cousin. So Finrod is the second cousin of Dior (Lúthien's child).

That is, Lúthien was Finrod's Great Uncle's (Thingol's) daughter. Lúthien's first cousins were Eärwen and Galadhon.

As for Thingol not sending Luthien with Beren, true, but the events that transpired came out of his plan and desire to have Beren die which endagered Luthien instead of excepting her love for Beren. When Thingol layed out this plan, he set a chain of events iin motion that would later lead to the death of Beren and the grief of Luthien which killed her, and also the death of Finrod.

I don't think that's very fair. Hate him for unintentionally causing a chain of events that ended in tragedy? Or anyway in sorrow, but it ended in light and joy. Beren and Lúthien as you know is one of the few happy stories from the First Age. For long Elwë was a racist and he was stubborn and proud, but he loved his daughter and wished no ill for her. Elwë really could not have done anything other than what he did. By his nature, that was doomed to happen. Which is no excuse, of course. However, he changed. He learned from his mistakes, he grew to love those whom he had hated and he changed. I think hatred given to Elwë for setting Beren out on his quest is sort of like hatred given to Túrin for all that he supposedly 'did'. Although it's even more ludicrous in Túrin's case as he was cursed by Satan.

I find it interesting of all the Ñoldoráni no one has picked Finwë, the first. Actually there hasn't been a lot of Noldorin Kings. There were Finwë, Curufinwë, Ñolofinwë, Arafinwë, Fingon, Finrod, Maedros, Turgon and Gil-Galad. That's it, isn't it?

It has just occured to me that the only full blooded Ñoldor here are Finwë and his son Fëanáro, how about that? Unless MÃ*riel was of the remote kin of Thingol or something (she alone among the Ñoldor had silver hair).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Inoldonil, I do not think I am being unfair to Thingol. Yes he eventually came around and had good feelings toward men. He even fostered Turin, but none of this happened until he had caused much pain and grief by trying to kill Beren. There is nothing wrong with protecting your child as he was doing. There is something wrong when you resort to such an extream and do it with the intention of causing anothers death. In this case he caused the death of eleven other people that were not involved. I do not compare events of Thingol, with events of Turin, for this reason: Turin was caught up in a curse laid upon his father by Morgoth. Turin was very prideful, but much of what happened was out of his control. Thingol made a choice. He was not under a curse, nor bound to an oath. He was prideful, selfish, and arrogant.

[Finmandos12]

And also Ionoldil, the only reason Thingol lost his hatred of men was because ofthe Silmaril he got from him. If Beren had come back without the Silmaril, he would not have liked him anymore than he did before.

[Ñólendil]

*chuckles*

He did come back without a Silmaril. That's why he's Beren Camlost, the Empty-handed. Carcharoth ate it with Beren's hand, remember?

[Finmandos12]

You know what I mean. If all three were still in Morgoth's crown, then he wouldn't have felt nicer toward him.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That is true, he did not come back with the Silmaril. Thingol did feel mercy for him when he saw what Beren went through trying to get it. He had lost his hand which is how the great wolf got the Silmaril. I will give Thingol credit where he deserves it, but that is not much. IMHO, the only reason he felt any good feelings for Beren, was that he finally realized how much this man loved his daughter. To do all that he did to gain Thingol's approval was a true testiment of Beren's love and loyalty to Luthien. However, that does not undo the harm that was done at Thingol's bidding.

[Finmandos12]

Thats right Sister!

[easterlinge]

Am I the only guy who likes Thingol? He did no worse than Feanor and 5 of his 7 sons.

[Ñólendil]

No, I didn't know what you meant Finmandos, but he accepted Beren before he knew his story, and when he did he was filled the more with wonder. I didn't mean to be mean :)

IMHO, the only reason he felt any good feelings for Beren, was that he finally realized how much this man loved his daughter.

IMPO, that's definitely true, but let us not downplay the words: 'good feelings'. It is not as though he rued Beren as the love of Lúthien, accepting only because he perceived at last Lúthien would despair if he didn't. Let us remember that he indeed had 'good feelings'. Finally realizing how much Beren loved his daughter, Thingol's feelings towards him changed, and perceiving his high Doom he accepted it.

And you are right, it doesn't undue what evil came about of Beren's Quest (put on him for his death by Thingol). But let us also not forget the words of the Elder King!: 'Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.' He was not talking about Thingol of course, but this still applies. Yet Námo's addition does not: 'And yet remain evil.' Say rather that it (perhaps) shall 'become good'. You say much of all the evils and sorrows that came about by this quest, but you say very little of the good and the joys.

Beren did get the Silmaril, didn't he? If he hadn't it (the retrieval of the Silmaril) would never have been achieved, save after the War of Wrath. Actually, no, not after the War of Wrath. There would not have been a War of Wrath, because Eärendil would never have been able to sail into the West. I don't doubt that the Doom of Mandos and the Malice of Morgoth would have prevailed. There would be no hope for the enemies of the Enemy. When Melkor would have been assailed by the Valar cannot be determined, but be assured it would not have been until even greater evil had come to pass.

Even assuming Lúthien and Beren were allowed to marry by Thingol, and the ennoblement of the Younger Children took place, the granddaughter of Beren (Elwing) could not have 'inherited' the Silmaril. Morgoth would have won.

So yes, what Thingol did was in itself wrong and unjust and we may be glad that he learned better, but it also brought about the last hope of Melkor's enemies, and glorious justice.

You may have noticed that my point has now changed. I understand the dislike of Elu, I merely bid you remember the good in him and the results of the Quest he laid on Beren in your judgment.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by easterlinge
Am I the only guy who likes Thingol? He did no worse than Feanor and 5 of his 7 sons. No, I think you have an allie in Inoldonil. Well, you may be right there, but who likes Feanor for any good deeds that he ever did? He is admired for his craftsmenship. He certianly was no boyscout.:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Frankly Inoldonil, I dislike Thingol most because of Finrod, but there is many other things as well. I fail to see any good that came out of the events brought about by Thingol. For instance, Beren and Luthien did not live happily ever after. When they were permitted to return from death and to live together in Middle-earth they lived "without certitude of life or joy"(The Silmarillion) To make a defense for him by saying this good or that good came from that bad is like saying, yeah, I caused the death of my daughters lover and my nephew and some other guys and my daughter grieved herself to death from it, but hey if I hadn't done that, we would have never been helped by the Valar, so guess what, I did all this bad stuff, but it saved the day. Sorry, but that is just not how I see it.

[Ñólendil]

I had to look up the 'w/o certitude of life or joy' quote, then I had to look up 'certitude'. As I'm sure you know, certitude is the state of being certain.

You twisted the passage a little. That part comes from the time when Lúthien must choose her fate: These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.

This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she had died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.

It says not at all that she was depressed and joyless in Middle-earth with Beren. We are here comparing her choices. To live in Aman until it dies is a promiss (at least in theory) of bliss and gladness. Nothing can be certain with a life in Middle-earth, and not even the Valar know what will happen afterwards. If that is a sad ending to Lúthien's life, then all men and women who have died in peace with their loves, not knowing what will come after -- have also met with a sad ending. This is a happy ending! For Lúthien and Beren at the least, it is! Do you really think Tolkien would have written out a sad ending for Lúthien and Beren? Those names are engraved on their tombstones you know, Edith Bratt's and JRR Tolkien's.

Anyway I think you've missed my point. My last paragraph was: You may have noticed that my point has now changed. I understand the dislike of Elu, I merely bid you remember the good in him and the results of the Quest he laid on Beren in your judgment.

Or again: So yes, what Thingol did was in itself wrong and unjust and we may be glad that he learned better, but it also brought about the last hope of Melkor's enemies, and glorious justice

I am not justifying Thingol's glorified death sentence of Beren by pointing out the good things that happened after.

As Tolkien said of Gollum, the ends do not justify the means. Gollum brought about the destruction of the Dark Lord. Brought it about -- from treachery. He was wretched, the poor thing. He destroyed the Ring on accident. That does not make him good. That does not make what he tried to do to Frodo good. We should rather be glad that Sam pitied him at last on the slopes of the Mountain (but too late for Gollum's good).

Similarly Thingol in a way (more indirectly), rather loosely I stress, brought about the destruction of the Dark Lord. Brought it about -- by way of an attempt to kill off Beren. We should rather be glad that Beren succeeded in his quest, and we should praise him. Unlike Gollum however, Thingol repented, but that does not make it right. I agree with you.

No, I'm definitely not justifying Thingol's glorified death sentence of Beren by pointing out the good things that happened after. I am pointing out the good things that happened after because you seem to prefer to ignore them :)

It's fun to debate with you though!

[adanedhel]

I agree SGH...the end doesn't justify the means. After all Inoldonil, the same thing can be said of Feanor, if he and his sons hadn't taken the "oath" and led the Noldor out of Aman, then the end of Morgoth wouldn't have occured either.

No, I can't defend Thingol, he was perhaps the most bigoted person in Beleriand. He thought himself (and his people) above both men and dwarves. Of men he declared "Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, ...." To the Dwarves after they demanded the Nauglamir he said "How dare ye of an uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienan years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?" Thus it was his PRIDE that killed him.

That being said, I still believe him to be the greatest of the Elven Kings. Would I want to be his friend? Probably not. His ally? Most certainly. A King's first thought should be for his kingdom and his people, and Thingol seemed to keep that in mind.

But the question was not the "who was the greatest, but who was the best. My vote goes to Turgon. He kingdom ended because he was kind to Hurin and Huor. If he had forbidden them to leave, they would have died of old age there and perhaps his kingdom would have remained hidden. He was also less proud than any other king...being the only one to seek pardon and aid from the Valar. HE I would want as friend AND ally.

[Finmandos12]

If Thingol had not demanded the Silmaril from Beren, then Doriath would never have fallen. Morgoth was the only one who could have broken the Girdle of Melian.

This brings up another elf: Maeglin (cue ominous music). He, I believe, was the only elf who was truly evil and did nothing good. It was his fault Gondolin fell, not Turgon's love of H&H. Of he had never disobeyed Turgon, then who knows how long Gondolin would have lasted? Turgon was prideful sometimes, such as his refusal to listen to Ulmo, but overall he was one of the better kings.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I haven't chose to ignore the good in Thingol. I admit that he changed toward men after the quest of Beren. As I said before, he even fostered Turin, and loved him as a son. When Turin accidently caused the death of Saeros, Thingol imediately pardoned him and sent Beleg to find him and bring him back. As I point out agian though all of this good that we are speaking of happened after the fact, and although any good came from the quest of Beren, I would not atribute that to Thingol just because he put the events in motion. I am not trying to paint him as a evil character, but one more of selfish and foolish pride, not evil.
You know, I don't like Celeborn much either. He reminds me of Thingol. He was of Thingol's people. How ironic that they both marry two of the greatest ladies in the mythology. I will never understand that.
Yes I know about Edith and J.R.R. and that Beren and Luthien were fashioned from them. As for Beren and Luthien's happiness after their return to Middle-earth, we really don't know. The text does not Focus on them much after. They are secluded and never seen by others I think.
I am glad we agree to a point, and debating with you has been most enjoyable for me as well.

[Ñólendil]

So you're taking into account all the good stuff that happened and all the good stuff in him, before and after the Beren business, but you don't care much about that and would rather mind the other side of the coin, is that it?

Oh we agree completely about Thingol, but I think it's just that my glass is half full and yours is half empty.

Anyway I can like a character whether they started or ended good or bad in any sense, although I might be saddened or uplifted etc. on the way. That's probably one of the sources for the rift in our views. I daresay Curumo turned out worse than Thingol, but I like him, and pity him. I always root for him in the Voice of Saruman, wish he'd just give Gandalf the keys, but he can't. I like him anyway.

Would you care to suppose Beren and Lúthien were unhappy in their final days?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
So you're taking into account all the good stuff that happened and all the good stuff in him, before and after the Beren business, but you don't care much about that and would rather mind the other side of the coin, is that it? I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest, I don't think I have given you a narrow minded impression,and I have acknowledged his good points. To be honest though, I think he had more bad then good ones, so there is just more to say about that. It is not that I choose to pick the bad side of the coin, there is just more on that side.

[i]Oh we agree completely about Thingol, but I think it's just that my glass is half full and yours is half empty.? [/B]So, you are an optimist. Good for you.



[i]Would you care to suppose Beren and Lúthien were unhappy in their final days? [/B]I could do that, however, that would be speculation. That was a condition to the choice that Luthien made if she and Beren returned to Middle-earth "w/o certitude of life or joy." This is the only clue that one may be able to draw on as to how happy they were, and that is not much. As I said, we do not know this after they return. The text does not make that clear. So, the best you can do is speculate which does not make it so.

[easterlinge]

Elves never really did understand the Atani and the Gift of Iluvatar. Gildor Inglorion even said that mortals are none of their concern, and are not their study. Even Arwen only understood Men and pitied the Numenoreans when Aragorn was dying, thinking them wicked and foolish.

I daresay the same applies to Thingol: until Beren came along he didn't understand Men at all. I think Thingol learned more about Men then, and stopped despising them. He let the people of Haleth dwell in Brethil, and took many Men into his service.

I think if the proper circumstance had arisen, he may have come to respect the Dwarves too.

If he hasn't already that is; Menegroth was wrought with the help of Dwarves. THe scene with the Nauglamir has nothing to do with Elven pride but with royal wrath: Kings do fly into rage when denied something that is believed to be their right. And the Dwarves were cheating. I'd be angry too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by easterlinge
Elves never really did understand the Atani and the Gift of Iluvatar. Gildor Inglorion even said that mortals are none of their concern, and are not their study. Even Arwen only understood Men and pitied the Numenoreans when Aragorn was dying, thinking them wicked and foolish.This is true about Arwen, and she lived a very sheltered life. Thingol was there from the start. Gildor Inglorion did not say that exactly. What he said was: "The Elves have their own labors and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth." That covers a wide territory I would say, and is not limited to Men.

I daresay the same applies to Thingol: until Beren came along he didn't understand Men at all. I think Thingol learned more about Men then, and stopped despising them. He let the people of Haleth dwell in Brethil, and took many Men into his service..[/B]He did not allow Haleth and her people to dwell in Brethil, until Finrod spoke to Thingol on her behalf. And then he attached a condition. "Now Brethil was claimed as part of his realm by King Thingol, though it was not within the Girdle of Melian, and he would have denied it to Haleth; but Felegund who had the friendship of Thingol, learning of all that had befallen the people of Haleth, obtained this grace for her: that she should dwell free in Brethil upon the condition only that her people should guard the Crossing of Teiglin against all enemies of the Eldar, and allow no Orcs to enter their woods. To this Haleth answered: "Where are Haldad my father, and Haldar my brother? If the King of Doriath fears a friendship between Haleth and those that have devoured her kin, then the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to Men."

I[i] think if the proper circumstance had arisen, he may have come to respect the Dwarves too...[/B]I don't really know alot about his relations with the Dwarves, so this I won't debate.

I[i] If he hasn't already that is; Menegroth was wrought with the help of Dwarves. THe scene with the Nauglamir has nothing to do with Elven pride but with royal wrath: Kings do fly into rage when denied something that is believed to be their right. And the Dwarves [i] were cheating. I'd be angry too. [/B]Why was the Nauglamir Thingol's? As much of a jerk as Mim was, I think he had more of a claim then Thingol did. The Nauglamir should have gone to Galadriel.

[Elvellon]

Hi,


I think of Thingol was a loving father, but a very jealous one. I don’t think he had give much thought about the consequences of sending Beren in an impossible quest. Likely, he believed Beren would give up immediately, and then would return to the wild, defeated. It isn’t probable, in my view that he had thought Beren would turn to Finrod for aid (if he knew of Finrod’s vow in the first place).

This Take us to another question, what was the nature of Thingol’s prejudice against humans?
It is possible that he had heard rumours about the betrayal of the Avari by the human tribes in the East.
(Some of the people of Doriath were, in origin, Nandor, escaping from the lands east of the Blue Mountains, and they could have heard this rumours from the Avari further east). :)

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Thingol was a great king, though he was cruel to Beren, he then repented when Turin came to Doriath!!! And as for the my fav, he was undoubtly Finrod Felagund, he was wise and all his deeds were valiant, and his death defending Beren was more than tragic, it touched me deep.......

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Hi,


I think of Thingol was a loving father, but a very jealous one. I don’t think he had give much thought about the consequences of sending Beren in an impossible quest. Likely, he believed Beren would give up immediately, and then would return to the wild, defeated. It isn’t probable, in my view that he had thought Beren would turn to Finrod for aid (if he knew of Finrod’s vow in the first place).:) I have to disagree that Thingol was not aware of the conseqences of the quest. His wish for Beren's death was the entire reason for why he did this. It never came in to his mind that Beren would survive, and his death would mean the end of him and Luthien. That was Thingol's plan. Even Finrod told Beren: "It is plain that Thingol desires your death, but it appears that this doom goes beuond his purpose and that the Oath of Feanor is again at work, for the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred and he that even names them in desire, moves a great power from slumber."

As for knowing of Finrod's vowel, of course he knew. Beren showed Thingol the ring of Barahir.

[i]This Take us to another question, what was the nature of Thingol’s prejudice against humans? ).:) [/B]Thingol's prejudice was not limited to Humans alone. He was very upset when the Noldor came from Aman. Thingol claimed to be Lord of Beleriand and he was afraid that with the return of the Noldor that that title might be threatened. As for men, the fact that they were mortal and of brief sevice was the root of his hatred for them. In his mind, they were greatly inferior.

[Finmandos12]

I forgot about the Noldor. I think that the main characteristics of Thingol were jealousy and pride. When anyone challenged him, he hated them. He liked Beren because of what he did for HIM. When other men did valiant things, he couldn't care less.

[Ñólendil]

I haven't had a chance yet to read everyone's posts.

I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest

Good stuff in him. He's not very personal to the reader before the quest, or at least not as much as he is in Of Beren and Lúthien, but if you don't see any 'good stuff' in him, you're saying he's evil. I know you don't think that, you've already said you don't, but if you don't acknowledge any good in him whatsoever you're looking at him as though he's an Orc, or a Demon or something. But even Orcs are redeemable, and Thingol's definitely not an Orc ;)

Or do you mean good stuff he did? I meant good stuff in him. If you mean the good stuff he did, there is not much to say of a long peaceful reign as King.

It is not that I choose to pick the bad side of the coin, there is just more on that side.

I don't know. I think we may have heard more bad things about him. Or rather, more detail has been given to us in relation to his initial feelings about Beren and Men in general, or his pride, because considering the tale, in depth talks about his good character would be boring. Yet we know he was well liked among his people, he was a just leader, he revered the Valar and their land and wished to see it again. He had strong bonds with his best friend Finwë and was saddened for never meeting him again, welcomed his kin from Finwë. He loved and was loved by Melian the Maia, a wise, kindly, generous and mighty spirit.

He hated the Enemy and all allies of the Enemy. And he did love his kin. He did not foresee Finrod's death, to suppose that is just illogical. We haven't heard that Galadriel told Melian or Thingol of what her brother told her. Doubtless it would have been mentioned had Thingol knew he was sending his grand nephew off to his death as well.

After the Quest of Beren, much more good in him is seen, as you note in a sort of offhand sort of way. We know of his part played in the tragedy of Túrin's life. And in Húrin's (which we know virtually nothing about), that told of his death. We know of his dislike of the Sons of Fëanor because of the evil they did long ago in Eldamar, but also particularly to Curufin and Celegorm because of the evils they accomplished against Beren, Lúthien and Finrod (but nonetheless the evils would not have happened had he never sent Beren off to his death, of which he repented, and also he himself desired to keep the Silmaril, which was dangerous and had good and bad results). He became a much more kindly king, loving and open-minded, etc., etc., etc.. I think we've seen equally his bad side and good side.

I find a theory involving the final days of Beren and Lúthien as unhappy to be unwarranted and unlikely. Unwarranted because there is absolutely nothing that might suggest this (as you know, unless you think the w/o certitude tells us something) and their relationship alone suggests the contrary. Unlikely because we are here in a way talking about John Ronald Tolkien and his wife Edith. He wouldn't give their marriage a sad ending! I've already addressed the 'w/o certitude' quote. The passage was referring to the opposing choice of staying in Aman, which in theory was a promise to bliss and peace. Nothing can be certain in a life in Middle-earth, that I believe is the extent of the passage's meaning.

Easterlinge, I definitely agree with Sister in that Thingol was a racist. The Halethrim event happened before Beren was born. Thingol allowed them to stay there so long as they did not allow Orcs into the land! He knew what happened to Haleth's brother and father, so that tells you what he thought of them. Only after Beren returned did his views begin to change. He does seem to have had some friendship with the Dwarves of Ered Luin before the disaster of Doriath though. Unfortunately, we do not know exactly what happened. If you have War of the Jewels (Vol. XI of HoMe, which I received recently as an extremely early birthday present), you'll be able to read about what really happened in the Fall of Doriath. Or rather, you'll find out we don't know what really happened. Christopher altered and added a lot and he deeply regretted doing so.

[Ñólendil]

All right, I've read up a bit, but this is going to be slightly redundant, considering Golden Hair and I have some understanding with one another.

Why should the NauglamÃ*r have gone to Galadriel? As sister of Finrod, you mean? Finrod had a nephew too in his own home (that died), and a grand nephew and niece (Rodnor and Finduilas according to the latest take on the parentage of Gil-Galad). I guess Galadriel has the same degree of claim to it. I understand you. If you take apart the NauglamÃ*r after the Silmaril was set in it though, it comes down to this:

1. Wrought by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains

2. Gems uncounted from Valinor (brought by Finrod's people) set therein

3. Silmaril wrought by Faenor, whos sons vowed to retrieve it from Morgoth, but Eönwë said that their right perished because of their many merciless deeds

4. Light of the Silmarilli came from the unsullied Light of the Two Trees, which came to be by the power of Yavanna and Niënna

5. Silmaril brought by Beren and Lúthien from Morgoths Crown and from the belly of the wolf to Thingol's hand.

So I ask you, who does the NauglamÃ*r really belong to? The Carcanet itself I think belongs to Finrod's nearest kin in Middle-earth (Galadriel or Rodnor, but perhaps more Rodnor {Gil-Galad} because he was of the people of Nargothrond, then again Galadriel endured the Grinding Ice and was of the people that brought the gems to Middle-earth -- before Rodnor was born). The Silmaril I think ultimately belonged to the Valar, but as Melian councilled it should have been given to the sons of Faenor. In this Thingol erred, for good and for bad reasons. The Dwarves gave up their right to it when they gave the carcanet to Finrod.

Actually Gil-Galad and Thingol were related to Finrod in the same degree. Thingol was his grand uncle and Gil-Galad was his grand nephew. But Thingol was not of Nargothrond. Galadriel or Gil-Galad.

Elvellon, it is definitely stated in that chapter that Thingol was hoping Beren would die in the attempt.

In response to the original point of this topic, I think the greatest Ñoldorin King was Gil-Galad. Here's a Noldo who began his Kingship as the last King of an oppressed and all but hopeless people, and ever after arose as the good hope of the Free Peoples, shunning the darkness and its lord. We see a lot of tragedy in the Ñoldorin Kings. Finwë and his love story with MÃ*riel are well known, and his death by the hand of Morgoth. Fëanáro of course was the cause (besides Melkor, ultimately the cause or origin of all evil) of the fall of the Noldor, slain by the Balrogs before Thangorodrim early in the Wars of Beleriand. Fingolfin seeing (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of Beleriand and all its realms challenged Morgoth himself and was physically broken, slain. Fingon in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, not a tragedy really (neither maybe was Fingolfin's), but his head was hewn off by Gothmog. That was a disastrous battle. Finrod died saving Beren's life, slaying a Werewolf with his bare hands and teeth. Tragedy. Turgon also, his entire realm coming to ruins because of the treachery of his sister-son. According to the old legend (the only one we can use) he died with the destruction of his tower. Maedros cast himself into a fiery chasm with the Silmaril that he had stolen by murder. But Gil-Galad marched to a victorious war with the greatest army that was ever mustered since the Great Battle and died on the slopes of Orodruin, perhaps killed by Sauron himself.

Although the full purpose of the Last Alliance was not achieved, the war I think was victorious. Gil-Galad was definitely an unfallen King, morally (not that there weren't others). I think he was definitely the greatest King of the Noldor. According to Tolkien's latest conception of him though, he was also a Sinda.

It is interesting that all the Kings were slain. My father remarked to me when he was reading The Silmarillion for the first time that if you check the Index (as he frequently did), seemingly most of the characters are slain or killed.

Oh ho! But I forget Finarfin. Wasn't slain. I think according to at least one note he was called a King. Finarfin or Gil-Galad, that's my pick.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
[COLOR=green] I haven't had a chance yet to read everyone's posts.

I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest

Good stuff in him. He's not very personal to the reader before the quest, or at least not as much as he is in Of Beren and Lúthien, but if you don't see any 'good stuff' in him, you're saying he's evil. I know you don't think that, you've already said you don't, but if you don't acknowledge any good in him whatsoever you're looking at him as though he's an Orc, or a Demon or something. But even Orcs are redeemable, and Thingol's definitely not an Orc ;) I don't see Thingol as a demon, Orc, or any other type of fell creature, I see him as an Elf that was power hungry in wanting to posess the entire country of Beleriand under his rule. I see him as an Elf that looked down his nose at the race of Men. He was prideful and arrogant, and these were the undesirable qualities before the quest of Beren. Tolkien did not elaborate much on Thingol's character as far as the good within him, or about him.

Or do you mean good stuff he did? I meant good stuff in him. If you mean the good stuff he did, there is not much to say of a long peaceful reign as King.[/B] Thingol did have a long peaceful reign as king. And I think I would atribute that fact to his wife more then to him.



I don't know. I think we may have heard more bad things about him. Or rather, more detail has been given to us in relation to his initial feelings about Beren and Men in general, or his pride, because considering the tale, in depth talks about his good character would be boring. Yet we know he was well liked among his people, he was a just leader, he revered the Valar and their land and wished to see it again. He had strong bonds with his best friend Finwë and was saddened for never meeting him again, welcomed his kin from Finwë. He loved and was loved by Melian the Maia, a wise, kindly, generous and mighty spirit.[/B] This I will agree with. However as for welcoming Finwe's kin, it was not with open arms. Here is a portion of his words to Angrod. " Beware therefore how you Princes of the West bear yourselves, for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all that seek to dwell there shall hear my word." Not very friendly I would say. Also, when he learned of the kinslaying, he was extreamly harsh to Finrod who was not involved.

He did not foresee Finrod's death, to suppose that is just illogical. We haven't heard that Galadriel told Melian or Thingol of what her brother told her. Doubtless it would have been mentioned had Thingol knew he was sending his grand nephew off to his death as well..[/B] This I disagree with. When Beren showed him that ring he knew. He knew the purpose of why that ring was in the hands of the Edain and what it meant, meaning the oath that Finrod had sworn. After seeing Beren hold it up and hearing the proud words he spoke, unless Thingol was stupid, which I don't think he was, then he knew that Beren would take Finrod up on his offer, and if he did not know that, then he did know that it was at least a possibility.

After the Quest of Beren, much more good in him is seen, as you note in a sort of offhand sort of way. We know of his part played in the tragedy of Túrin's life. And in Húrin's (which we know virtually nothing about), that told of his death. We know of his dislike of the Sons of Fëanor because of the evil they did long ago in Eldamar, but also particularly to Curufin and Celegorm because of the evils they accomplished against Beren, Lúthien and Finrod (but nonetheless the evils would not have happened had he never sent Beren off to his death, of which he repented, and also he himself desired to keep the Silmaril, which was dangerous and had good and bad results). He became a much more kindly king, loving and open-minded, etc., etc., etc.. I think we've seen equally his bad side and good side.[/B] Agreed

I find a theory involving the final days of Beren and Lúthien as unhappy to be unwarranted and unlikely. Unwarranted because there is absolutely nothing that might suggest this (as you know, unless you think the w/o certitude tells us something) and their relationship alone suggests the contrary. Unlikely because we are here in a way talking about John Ronald Tolkien and his wife Edith. He wouldn't give their marriage a sad ending! I've already addressed the 'w/o certitude' quote. The passage was referring to the opposing choice of staying in Aman, which in theory was a promise to bliss and peace. Nothing can be certain in a life in Middle-earth, that I believe is the extent of the passage's meaning..[/B] As I said before, there is know way to know the extent of their happiness. If you are saying they were happy just because they were together, that is probably true. I am just saying that the w/o certitude of life and joy was a condition placed on them in making the choice to return to ME. Again, the text does not give this information on their happiness or sorrows after their return. If Tolkien says that they were to dwell without certitude of life or joy for this choice, then that is what happened.

[Ñólendil]

Also in response to Tar-Elenion: "after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their [Elrond and Elros] descendants"; ... the LotR statement does not take into account Galadriel (or is refering only to those who were Kings of the Noldor in Middle-earth (after the rebellion), in which case it does not need to include Maglor either since Feanor was (arguably) not a King.

I don't think it can be referring only to descendants of those who were High-elven Kings, for it must include Galadriel and Maglor if he was still to be found in Middle-earth. Both are descended from Finwë, whether Faenor or Finarfin were Kings or not. Or have I misunderstood you?

Anyway I think you're right, it certainly doesn't take Galadriel into account, being the granddaughter of Finwë and Olwë.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
[COLOR=blue]All right, I've read up a bit, but this is going to be slightly redundant, considering Golden Hair and I have some understanding with one another.

Why should the NauglamÃ*r have gone to Galadriel? As sister of Finrod, you mean? Finrod had a nephew too in his own home (that died), and a grand nephew and niece (Rodnor and Finduilas according to the latest take on the parentage of Gil-Galad). I guess Galadriel has the same degree of claim to it. I understand you. If you take apart the NauglamÃ*r after the Silmaril was set in it though, it comes down to this:

1. Wrought by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains

2. Gems uncounted from Valinor (brought by Finrod's people) set therein

3. Silmaril wrought by Faenor, whos sons vowed to retrieve it from Morgoth, but Eönwë said that their right perished because of their many merciless deeds

4. Light of the Silmarilli came from the unsullied Light of the Two Trees, which came to be by the power of Yavanna and Niënna

5. Silmaril brought by Beren and Lúthien from Morgoths Crown and from the belly of the wolf to Thingol's hand.

So I ask you, who does the NauglamÃ*r really belong to? The Carcanet itself I think belongs to Finrod's nearest kin in Middle-earth (Galadriel or Rodnor, but perhaps more Rodnor {Gil-Galad} because he was of the people of Nargothrond, then again Galadriel endured the Grinding Ice and was of the people that brought the gems to Middle-earth -- before Rodnor was born). The Silmaril I think ultimately belonged to the Valar, but as Melian councilled it should have been given to the sons of Faenor. In this Thingol erred, for good and for bad reasons. The Dwarves gave up their right to it when they gave the carcanet to Finrod.

Actually Gil-Galad and Thingol were related to Finrod in the same degree. Thingol was his grand uncle and Gil-Galad was his grand nephew. But Thingol was not of Nargothrond. Galadriel or Gil-Galad.. Well, I think it all depends on which account you want to except. I am refering to the account before the parentage of Gil-galad is changed from being the son of Fingon. In other words the published Silmarillion. I think that the Nauglamir should have gone to Orodreth actually as Finrod's only surviving brother at the time, and then after his death to Galadriel. If it had come to her, it might have even made its way to Arwen. My guess would be that it was passed on to Orodreth, and after his death and the sack of Nargothrond it layed there until Hurin came along. I wonder though, even if Galadriel had received it would it still have ended up with Thingol and the Silmaril? It would have been in Doriath.

[Ñólendil]

My memory perhaps is hazy. Did not Orodreth die in the sack of Nargothrond, long before the Silmaril was put into the NauglamÃ*r? I haven't read the published Ruin of Doriath in a while. I'm sort of turned off towards it now that I know it is basically a bucket o' hogwash. I suppose I should read the Ruin of Doriath and JRR Tolkien's actual writings in War of the Jewels once more, then get into the conversation. But I thought you meant after the Silmaril was set in it.

[Tar-Elenion]

Inoldonil:
Yes you may have slightly misunderstood me.
First my commentary is an attempt to justify or reconcile an apparent flaw or contradiction.

The quote is:
"after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their [Elrond and Elros] descendants".
(I hope we can agree to define lineage as 'a line of descent').
In context of the LotR High-elves refers to the Noldor (see the Index of LotR for quick reference).
After the fall of Gil-galad there are, in Middle-earth (excluding the Numenoreans) three known descendants of the Royal House of the Noldor. These are Elrond, Galadriel and Celebrian (later also Elrond's children). So there must be a reason why Galadriel and Celebrian are not counted.
The simplest might be to say it is just wrong.
Or we could suppose the Professor simply forgot or did not really consider its implications.
But lets actually accept the statement as accurate and try to justify it.
Something that Elrond (and Gil-galad) are that neither Galadriel nor Celebrian are is actual direct lineal descendants High-elven (sic. Noldorin) Kings _in Middle-earth_. Elrond is descended from Fingolfin and Turgon, both of whom were High-elven kings in Middle-earth. Gil-galad was descended from, variously Finrod, Fingon (and thus Fingolfin) or Orodreth. All of these were High-elven Kings in Middle-earth Galadriel and Celebrian are both descended from Finwe who was certainly King of the Noldor, but he was not King of the Noldor in Middle-earth (per se, i.e. he became King of the Noldor likely while on the Great March, but they were leaving Middle-earth not staying, if you get my drift). This could also justify other possible descendents of the Royal House (such as Maglor and others unnamed) surviving.
Does that make sence?

[Elvellon]

:confused: …. it seems I can’t trust my memory (it just have been too long since I read The Silmarillion, “sigh�). Thanks, Sister Golden Hair, for reminding me that Thingol saw the ring of Barahir on Beren’s hand. :)

I read that part of the Sil again, and have clearer ideas about it now (I just wish I had the time to read it all again…). It is clear to me that Thingol’s anger, at the time, was barely under control. Certainly it is possible that he was not thinking very clearly at the time, and the full meaning of the ring might have escaped him. It is true that Beren told how his father received the ring from Finrod “on the battlefield of the North�, clearly implying that it was a gift for his father valour, but I doubt that Thingol, in his anger, saw behind the obvious, and understood that it meant a life debt. What I’m saying is, that if Thingol had realized Beren would ask Finrod’s aid, he could have devised a way to avoid it, For example, Thingol could have demanded of Beren that he would do his quest alone, without anybody’s aid.


Inoldonil said,

“Elvellon, it is definitely stated in that chapter that Thingol was hoping Beren would die in the attempt.�

I still think that Thingol didn’t believe Beren had the courage to attempt to take a silmaril from Morgoth. I believe Thingol felt contempt for the “lowly mortal�, and didn’t gave much credit for Beren´s courage or for the love he felt for Luthien (he hoped for Beren's death, but was not expecting it to became reality).

Now, about Thingol’s prejudice against the Noldor. I have not written about it before, but it is an interesting subject. It doesn’t look to me that he had any prejudice against them early on. In his words to Angrod, during the noldo prince first visit to Doriath, we see him giving many lands of his kingdom to the Noldor (those lands were few Sindar lived), and the reason he gives to not allow the Noldor to create kingdoms elsewhere in Beleriand is a sensible one (he didn’t want to see his people restrained of their freedom). He did not forbade (at that time) the Noldor of visit Doirath neither. Despite that, I believe Thingol must have heard of the quarrels among the Noldor princes early on (some of Thingol’s folk lived in the north, in the lands first settled by the Noldor), and Melian warned him that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them. His anger against them was thus justified, who among us would open the doors of our house for the slayers of our family, or their kin?

I don’t think Thingol hated mankind (besides Beren, for a time), he just didn’t trusted them (because of the betrayal of the Avari, I suppose), and didn’t saw them as a people capable of being a real aid in his war against Morgoth (agross mistake)

Just another subject, I’m glad that most people at this thread appreciate Finrod as much as I do, after all, he is my favourite character. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
My memory perhaps is hazy. Did not Orodreth die in the sack of Nargothrond, long before the Silmaril was put into the NauglamÃ*r? I haven't read the published Ruin of Doriath in a while. I'm sort of turned off towards it now that I know it is basically a bucket o' hogwash. I suppose I should read the Ruin of Doriath and JRR Tolkien's actual writings in War of the Jewels once more, then get into the conversation. But I thought you meant after the Silmaril was set in it. Yes, Orodreth died in the forfront of the battle, and yes, it was long beore the silmaril was placed in the Nauglamir. As far as it being a bucket od hogwash, that depends on if you have read the HoMe, which I have only had a slight exposure to. I still love the published Silmarillion, since at the time I read it, it was the way it was. There were no Histories of Middle-earth. And no, I meant before the Silmaril was placed in it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvellon
: What I’m saying is, that if Thingol had realized Beren would ask Finrod’s aid, he could have devised a way to avoid it, For example, Thingol could have demanded of Beren that he would do his quest alone, without anybody’s aid. True, he could have also sent Beren on a lesser quest and assured his death, but probably not without doubt. He had to be sure that it was something that he would fail at. As for him not wishing to involve Finrod by not thinking clearly, I don't find that acceptable. He just did not care even after he knew that it was a possibility. IMHO.

[i]I still think that Thingol didn’t believe Beren had the courage to attempt to take a silmaril from Morgoth. I believe Thingol felt contempt for the “lowly mortal�, and didn’t gave much credit for Beren´s courage or for the love he felt for Luthien (he hoped for Beren's death, but was not expecting it to became reality).[/B] I think that this was otherwise. He hoped for Beren's death. He knew Beren loved Luthien and he was going to do everything to prevent that relationship. He wanted Beren's death to be reality. The trouble is that when Beren acomplished it, Thingol wasn't expecting that, and then he felt foolish and realized that maybe he had underestimated him, and the race of men.

[i] In his words to Angrod, during the noldo prince first visit to Doriath, we see him giving many lands of his kingdom to the Noldor).[/B] But this was not his land to give or deny, he just claimed it, and as is seen later very little of his land came to be outside of the Girdle of Melian or Doriath. [i] He did not forbade (at that time) the Noldor of visit Doirath neither.).[/B] The text states that the Sons of Finarfin were the only ones admitted into Doriath because they could claim close kinship with Thingol since there mother was Earwen, the daughter of Olwe.)..[i] Despite that, I believe Thingol must have heard of the quarrels among the Noldor princes early on (some of Thingol’s folk lived in the north, in the lands first settled by the Noldor), and Melian warned him that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them.).).[/B] First of all, Melian did not know anything until Galadriel told her, and then Galadriel did not tell her of the Curse of Mandos, The Oath of Feanor, or the Kinslaying. All of this was brought to Thingol's attention by Cirdan. It was only after he heard of the Kinslaying, he forbade the use of Quenya throughout Beleriand. He never had dealings with the Noldor exceptfor Finrod and Fingolfin ever.

[i] Just another subject, I’m glad that most people at this thread appreciate Finrod as much as I do, after all, he is my favourite character. :) [/B]Something we have in comman. He is my hero.

[Ñólendil]

Thanks for the explanation Elenion, that does indeed make a great deal more sense. I get your drift.

Elvellon, certainly Thingol was not prejudiced against all the Noldor. He was ill-pleased how little they consulted him in matters, particularly with the Coming of Men into Beleriand (but Finrod did). He certainly greatly disliked the Sons of Faenor (he was somewhat suspicious, after he heard of the Kinslaying he hated them), but he was friends with his own kin. He seems to have got on well enough with Galadriel, and Finrod also was his friend. There's no hostility recorded against Angrod, Aegnor or Arothir (Orodreth if you prefer) either. Nor did he withdraw his friendship from Fingolfin's House, even though they shared no blood with him. It is important to remember, I think, that Finwë and Elwë had an ancient friendship.

Thingol did forbid the passage of all Noldor into his realm, save those that had some kinship with him. That would be (at the time) Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor, Galadriel and Arothir/Orodreth. Five of the Noldor were allowed in.

There were some of his kind he and many others grew to distrust. Some of the Northern Sindar, the Mithrim are actually known to have entered into the service of Morgoth and to have served him as spies. Apparently they had been enslaved and under the fear of torment, or the pain of it, had served him. Not unknown among the Eldar, look at Maeglin. Beren spoke the Northern dialect of Sindarin, it offended the ears of Thingol.

What do you mean by 'betrayel of the Avari'?

Sister Golden Hair, I really should read everyone's posts before I type, but I don't feel like deleting all this. Frequently I find myself repeating you :)

P.S., Do you know I think the Quenya form of your user name would be Osellë Laureafindë, which may be contracted to Laurefindë, Laurë for short (or Osellë I guess).

[Finmandos12]

But this was not his land to give or deny, he just claimed it, and as is seen later very little of his land came to be outside of the Girdle of Melian or Doriath.

That's true. What he "gave" them was what he had no control over. He wanted protection without surrendering his territory, which was a shrewd move. He was smart here, not good or evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Sister Golden Hair, I really should read everyone's posts before I type, but I don't feel like deleting all this. Frequently I find myself repeating you :)

P.S., Do you know I think the Quenya form of your user name would be Osellë Laureafindë, which may be contracted to Laurefindë, Laurë for short (or Osellë I guess). No problem Inoldonil. I find I repeat myself alot:) Also, I am not learned in the languages of Tolkien, but if you say that is my name, then I will take your word for it. You probably know where I picked the name from I am sure, but in case you don't I will tell you. It is from a song by America called(Sister Golden Hair Surprise) I couldn't think of a good name, and I did not want to choose one from the books, so I picked this out of thin air.:)

[adanedhel]

I don't think Thingol hated men because they were mortal...perhaps because he felt they were inferior, but he was definately angry that none of the Noldor (save Finrod) consulted with him before allowing Men into Beleriand.

Also, he had dreams about the coming of Men long before anyone had heard of them...I imagine (though it is not documented) that these dreams had to do with a Man having some negative (as he saw it) effect on his kingdom.

[Ñólendil]

he saw rather in some fashion the shadow of Húrin.


Sister, I'm a Classic Rock fan, but having a terrible memory and being born in '86 I have trouble remembering band names and applying them to songs. So no, didn't know that :)

[Elvellon]

Oh Boy!… I just can´t stop myself from typing about this issue. I just hope you do enjoy this debate as much as I do, Sister Golden Hair and Inoldonil.:)

-The Personality Problem of Thingol
Hm, as I see it, there is one problem in accepting the theory that Thingol knew Beren would ask Finrod ‘s aid. It implies that Thingol wasn’t a jerk, but a sociopath (“sending� his nephew to a certain death, just to kill someone he hated… by the Valar!). I don’t think Tolkien meant that, for we see Thingol married with Melien, for a very long time, and I doubt such a monster could fool her for long. He was also one of the 3 messengers chosen by Orome to go to Aman, and that implies he had the trust of the Valar).

Of course he might have changed during time, but then, he still had to be a power mad, cold, tyrant by the time Beren came into Doriath. But there is nothing to imply that Doriath, at that time, was a place of fear and injustice. If Thingol were such an uncaring monster to his family then how he would be as a ruler to his people? And if Doriath had become such a morgothian pit, would Melian just sit by the tyrant’s side doing nothing? And would the other elven lords of the land do nothing neither?

But then, if Thingol wasn’t such a monster, why did he done what he did?
As far as I can see the only possible answer is that he did it while blinded by anger. But it is one thing to send the stranger he hated to a certain death and another to sacrifice his nephew to accomplish it. I don’t think any normal, sane person would do it, not even under the greatest of angers. But a great rage could blind him to what Barahir ring really meant, and so he did nothing to avoid Finrod’s death. (And yes, he didn’t have to send Beren in another, lesser quest; he only needed to send him in the same quest, denying him the right of any aid. That would make Beren’s death more certain, not less).


Sister Golden Hair said:
“He [Thingol] hoped for Beren's death. He knew Beren loved Luthien and he was going to do everything to prevent that relationship. He wanted Beren's death to be reality. The trouble is that when Beren acomplished it, Thingol wasn't expecting that, and then he felt foolish and realized that maybe he had underestimated him, and the race of men.�

Well, we partially agree in this. As I see it, Thingol’s mood was softened� when Beren returned empty handed because, as you said it,� he realized that he had underestimated him�. I believe that only then he realized how much that man was courageous and how much he loved his daughter. That is what makes me believe that, in his previous contempt for Beren, he might have not believed him capable of attempting the quest.
But you said that:
a) Thingol had no doubts about Beren attempting the quest. Therefore he hadn’t underestimated Beren’s courage.
b)Thingol hadn´t underestimated Beren’s love for Luthien.
So what is that you believe Thingol underestimated in Beren? What was so important to make he change is mind?


I wrote:
“In his words to Angrod, during the noldo prince first visit to Doriath, we see him giving many lands of his kingdom to the Noldor).�

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
“But this was not his land to give or deny, he just claimed it, and as is seen later very little of his land came to be outside of the Girdle of Melian or Doriath.�

True, if you accept Maedhros view, but what I think is relevant is that Thingol gave something that he considered his to the Noldor.

I wrote:
“He did not forbade (at that time) the Noldor of visit Doirath neither.�

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
The text states that the Sons of Finarfin were the only ones admitted into Doriath because they could claim close kinship with Thingol since there mother was Earwen, the daughter of Olwe�

But I was quoting Thingol when he said to Angrod “ Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you [the princes of the Noldor]…Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests…�, at this time there wasn’t any restriction to those that clamed a close kinship with Thingol, so it must have been at a later time he decided that.


I wrote:
“…and Melian warned Thingol that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them.

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
“First of all, Melian did not know anything until Galadriel told her, and then Galadriel did not tell her of the Curse of Mandos, The Oath of Feanor, or the Kinslaying. Cirdan brought all of this to Thingol’s attention. It was only after he heard of the Kinslaying, he forbade the use of Quenya throughout Beleriand. He never had dealings with the Noldor except for Finrod and Fingolfin ever.�

I wasn’t quite clear here. I meant Melian had perceive a veiled distrust and an unsolved and unspoken conflict between the Noldor princes, as she said to Galadriel “There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin…�.

Glad to hear your liking of Felagund, Sister Golden Hair.:)

Inoldonil,
I meant the betrayal of the Avari by the Fathers of Men. If my memory doesn’t fail me, Tolkien wrote
that when men first awoke in the far East they had as teachers Avari elves. He also wrote that Morgoth went among them and seduced men towards evil. Ann there is the recurring talk about the Edain fleeing a shadow from their past. And I’m certain you recall the conversation between Finrod and Andreth ( I advice it to B]Sister Golden Hair[/B] and all other who specially like Felagund. Is in Morgot’s Ring) but there is also an older tradition that, I believe, was never discarded by Tolkien, and is compatible with this one and were it is said that, at some point in the beginning, men were seduced by evil and turned against their elven teachers. If I’m not mistaken, you can find an early account of it in the Book of Lost Tales. Anyway, I think this would be a good explanation for Thingol’s distrust for men, since if this is true it could also be possible that Thingol could have known of this, as some of his people were, in origin, Nandor from Eriador were some Avari may have spoke with them of this.
:)

[adanedhel]

From "The Coming of Men Into the West":

"But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew."

That may be what Thingol feared, but I doubt that he would have given his consent for Men to live anywhere in Beleriand if he had heard that they had "betrayed" the Avari in any way. Furthermore, the Nandor in Thingol's service arrived with Denethor long before the rising of the Sun and the awakening of Men (before the slaying of the Trees in fact) and therefore could have heard nothing from the Avari regarding Men.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elvellon
-The Personality Problem of Thingol
Hm, as I see it, there is one problem in accepting the theory that Thingol knew Beren would ask Finrod ‘s aid. It implies that Thingol wasn’t a jerk, but a sociopath (“sending� his nephew to a certain death, just to kill someone he hated… by the Valar!). I don’t think Tolkien meant that, for we see Thingol married with Melien, for a very long time, and I doubt such a monster could fool her for long. He was also one of the 3 messengers chosen by Orome to go to Aman, and that implies he had the trust of the Valar).You may be right that Tolkien did not mean that, but I think as readers we all perceive things in the story differently. If we didn't then we wouldn't have these fun debates. Right? And yes, Thingol may have been blinded by anger and not really have thought clearly, realizing that he may be drawing Finrod into a fatal scheme. I will give thingol the benefit of the doubt here for how it happened, but he is still the blame. There is even a character in the story that blames him in so many words. This may not be an exact quote. I don't have the book handy. But Hurin took the Nauglamir and cast it at Thingol's feet saying: "Receive thee thy fee for the safe keeping of my wife and my children. For this is the Nauglamir which is known to many among Elves and Men and I bring it to you out of the darkness of Nargothrond where Finrod thy kinsmen left it behind him when he set out to do the will of Thingol of Doriath."

[i]Of course he might have changed during time, but then, he still had to be a power mad, cold, tyrant by the time Beren came into Doriath. But there is nothing to imply that Doriath, at that time, was a place of fear and injustice. If Thingol were such an uncaring monster to his family then how he would be as a ruler to his people? And if Doriath had become such a morgothian pit, would Melian just sit by the tyrant’s side doing nothing? And would the other elven lords of the land do nothing neither? [/B]I don't find Thingol to be a tyrant or a monster. I think he is egotistical and power happy.

[i]But you said that:
a) Thingol had no doubts about Beren attempting the quest. Therefore he hadn’t underestimated Beren’s courage.
b)Thingol hadn´t underestimated Beren’s love for Luthien.
So what is that you believe Thingol underestimated in Beren? What was so important to make he change is mind?[/B]
Thingol underestimated Beren's ability to succeed, and return alive. He changed when Beren came back and saw and heard all that happened. He then realized that Beren was quite a Man. Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?



[i]But I was quoting Thingol when he said to Angrod “ Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you [the princes of the Noldor]…Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests…�, at this time there wasn’t any restriction to those that clamed a close kinship with Thingol, so it must have been at a later time he decided that.[/B] I will do some further checking on this, but as far as I know the only Noldor to have dealings with Thingol was the people of Finrod and Fingolfin.



I wrote:
“…and Melian warned Thingol that there was a shadow over the Noldor, but it was only after he heard of the kinslaying that he close his hearth to them.

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
“First of all, Melian did not know anything until Galadriel told her, and then Galadriel did not tell her of the Curse of Mandos, The Oath of Feanor, or the Kinslaying. Cirdan brought all of this to Thingol’s attention. It was only after he heard of the Kinslaying, he forbade the use of Quenya throughout Beleriand. He never had dealings with the Noldor except for Finrod and Fingolfin ever.�

Btw, I have read the Athrabeth. It was beautiful.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by adanedhel
From "The Coming of Men Into the West":

That may be what Thingol feared, but I doubt that he would have given his consent for Men to live anywhere in Beleriand if he had heard that they had "betrayed" the Avari in any way.

Good point. I agree. Anyway you and Inoldonil already have solved the problem of the origin of Thingol's distrust for Men.

quote:
"Furthermore, the Nandor in Thingol's service arrived with Denethor long before the rising of the Sun and the awakening of Men (before the slaying of the Trees in fact"

Here I disagree. It is said elsewhere that small groups oh dark elves entered Beleriand secretly (HOME),I think there is no time restriction about it (But perhaps they were Avari, I don´t recall).

[Elvellon]

Sister Golden Hair wrote:
Quote:
"Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him? "

Never!, I always thought she was the real hero of the quest. :)

[i]
Btw, I have read the Athrabeth. It was beautiful. [/B]

I couldn’t agree more:)

[Ñólendil]

I think we do enjoy the exchange as much as you do Elvellon. I know I do.

I agree with your second paragraph (first one after the 'personality' title), but I have a niggle. According to one source, the Annals of Aman (published in Morgoth's Ring, the writing is by no means entirely congruent with later ideas, but it's a great source nonetheless), Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë were the only Elves willing to go to Valinor. If Finwë and Elwë were not -- as I think they were not -- descended from the Second and Third Elves Tata and Enel, them going as ambassadors of the Quendi must have meant that they were very adventurous friends, with a strong desire to see the wide world, and perhaps they were also very ambitious. They must have gone through a drastic change with their going to Valinor and returning, and leading their peoples on to see the Light. They definitely met with ennoblement. Ingwë on the other hand, because of his name, I believe to be descended from, either in the next generation or the one after that, from the first Elf: Imin.

It is also notable, in relation to your post Elvellon, that Morgoth greatly feared Thingol and Melian.

But why must we assume Thingol knew Finrod would give his life for Beren at all? Is it not possible that Thingol never fully realized the full meaning of the giving of Finrod's Ring to Barahir? As far as we know he had not heard of the cold words Finrod told his sister in Nargothrond.

With regard to the Avari, perhaps you are assuming too much. According to the tale of the Fall of Man that Tolkien wrote, Morgoth met the Hildor long before any Elves did. Doubtless they did learn from the Avari in the Far East, perhaps those faithful to Eru and those others, but there's no record I know of dealing with a betrayal. Oh, Book of Lost Tales? I haven't read much of it. Maybe. Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born.

Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with. Tolkien's last word on Orcs (which I now know can be found in Morgoth's Ring) was that they were corrupted Men, but this depends on the very new idea.

Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?

Definitely not. Lúthien was Beren's Sam Gamgee.

These are the passages dealing with the early days of Thingol and the Exiled Noldor, from Of the Return of the Noldor:

Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure. Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.

Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of his brother Finrod, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force; but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor and the oath of Fëanor. King Thingol hearkened to the words of Angrod; and ere he went he said to him: 'Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you. In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word. Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests, or who seek me in great need.'

So you see, the right of passage into Doriath being withheld from all but the kin of the King occurred initially, before Elu made any comment about 'guests'. But the initial feeling held on, so when he said 'guests' he was only really referring to his own kin. I imagine he used the word due to policy -- for political reasons. Angrod is bearing a message back to those that sent him, to the Princes of the Noldor, not only the children of Eärwen. It is well not to exclude and insult those whom you bid and wish, in some fashion, to acknowledge you as Lord of Beleriand. He probably did not intend to welcome the sons of Anairë or Nerdanel, but the wording leaves the option open to him.

On the other hand Angrod is said to be the messenger of Finrod here. Perhaps Thingol had Finrod's kin especially in mind, as he would in any case forbid anyone else to enter.

Maybe in time he would have, had he never learned of the Kinslaying. But that was inevitable, and Faenor's sons accomplished enough evil anyway for him to ban them from the land. Yet even Fingolfin's sons, although not bereft of Thingol's friendship, were not allowed within Doriath.

Good point. I agree. Anyway you and Inoldonil already have solved the problem of the origin of Thingol's distrust for Men.

Have we? You mean the troubled dreams? That probably didn't help, but I think it's more than that. Thingol was definitely a racist -- for long. He probably regarded the Second Born as lowly and unworthy, not to mention perhaps unlovely. Their weakness I imagine he despised. At the heart of all racism there is fear. I don't doubt that Thingol was afraid in some way. Not only because of his ominous visions, but I think perhaps simply because they were different. Deep down, Elu Thingol was afraid.

Here I disagree. It is said elsewhere that small groups oh dark elves entered Beleriand secretly (HOME),I think there is no time restriction about it (But perhaps they were Avari, I don´t recall).

Yes, you can read about it in the very late writing of Quendi and Eldar, in War of the Jewels. They entered in from the south. They were in origin Tatyarin Avari, and so akin to the Noldor. But the Nandor are not Avari. Both are Dark Elves. Thingol in fact ruled Dark Elves. 'Dark Elves' in the reckoning of the Noldor in Aman, the Moriquendi, referred to all Elves who had not, or were descended from those who had not seen the Light of the Two Trees. Thingol was thus a Light Elf, but he ruled Dark Elves. Dark Elves including all Races of Sindar, Nandor and Avari. In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.

[adanedhel]

Have we? You mean the troubled dreams? That probably didn't help, but I think it's more than that. Thingol was definitely a racist -- for long. He probably regarded the Second Born as lowly and unworthy, not to mention perhaps unlovely. Their weakness I imagine he despised. At the heart of all racism there is fear. I don't doubt that Thingol was afraid in some way. Not only because of his ominous visions, but I think perhaps simply because they were different. Deep down, Elu Thingol was afraid.

While I agree that Thingol was a racist (as I mentioned before in referencing his final words to the dwarves), I don't agree that he distrusted men because he felt they were lowly, unworthy or unlovely. After all, he thought that way about the Dwarves and he allowed them into Doriath.

As for his being afraid, yes, but I still think it to be because of his dreams. I believe that he saw some great peril to come to Doriath because of men, and probably thought it fulfilled through Beren. If he thought he still had anything to fear from the Atani, he never would have taken in Turin as his foster son.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Here is another annoying aspect of Thingol concerning Men. The book says that he had these dreams and that none save Finrod consulted with him regarding the coming of Men and this displeased him. Well how in the world was anyone else suppose to consult him on these matters, when he allowed no one else to come into Doriath? I think this guy wants his lembus and eat it too.

[Elvellon]

Inoldonil, I finally got a little time to write back, so here it goes:

-About why Thingol denied entrance in Doriath to the Noldor at the very beginning

Here, of course we can devise several explanations; it could be that Thingol simply gave a “political� answer as you said, or, it could be that for a time, (thanks to the merit of Angrod perhaps), he actually considered to open his borders to visiting Noldor, (something that didn’t happened, but we must not forget that at least the Feanorians took Thingol’s words poorly, so it might not be entirely is fault).
Still, there is a problem has I see it; what was the nature of Thingol’s fear? I don’t accept the theory that he denied admittance in Doriath to the Noldor because he was a racist. As it is said in the Silmarillion he may have feared the Noldor’s greed for lands (and as we know, the desire for new lands to call as their own was one of the reasons for the return of the Noldor). Still, I ´m not entirely satisfied with this explanation either, he didn´t trust the Noldor, this is plain, but he overreact by not allowing visits but those of his kin .It might be, in the end, that Thingol may have had a vague premonition about the doom of Doriath, perhaps not knowing the nature of what was going to happen or how the Noldor were related with it, an irrational motive for an irrational action.

-Regarding the Nandor and the Avari:

Unfortunately I don’t have the time to give a full explanation just now, I just hope I will be able to give one later on.
Quote:
“…Unless you want to adhere to the very new idea Tolkien came up with, in which the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning and Men awakened long before they did in the mythology we're familiar with.�
No, I don’t mean the very last idea that Tolkien had about that (I still like more the ones he wrote before).

Quote:
“Not against the Nandor then (who were not Avari). What we know of the Edain's relationship with the Nandor of Eriador certainly says enough for us to deduce there was no hostility between the two. Adanedhel has pointed out that Thingol or any Laegrim in his realm could not have met any of the Second Born. “

Of course, but if any news came from such a betrayal of the Avari by Men in the East it would be but a vague rumour by the time it reached Eriador, and, if I am not mistaken the Edain took the Elves side since the very beginning. Anyway, what might be of relevance is that by the time the Edain came into Eriador many human tribes were already seduced by Evil. Did the Nandor of Eriador hear any word about it from their cousins further east? If they did they probably have heard only vague stories about it and word of the friendship of the Edain would also have reach them.
By the way, of course this is just speculation, but what happened back in Hildorien was never well explained in Tolkien’s later works, or at least I don’t remember it.

Quote:
“But the Nandor are not Avari. Both are Dark Elves. Thingol in fact ruled Dark Elves. 'Dark Elves' in the reckoning of the Noldor in Aman, the Moriquendi, referred to all Elves who had not, or were descended from those who had not seen the Light of the Two Trees. Thingol was thus a Light Elf, but he ruled Dark Elves. Dark Elves including all Races of Sindar, Nandor and Avari. “In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.�

I think you may believe I was confusing the Avari with the Nandor, not so.
Of course the Nandor are not Avari, the first were of the people of Dan and the later may have been, for the most part, kin of the Noldor (and not just those in Eriador but the majority of the Avari everywhere, if I recall it right).

Quote:
“In any case the Avari who entered Beleriand never entered Doriath.�

Are you sure about that? I can’t recall any such definitive statement. I guess I’ll have to read my books again, as soon as I find the time for it.
But don’t forget, Thingol’s realm were all of Beleriand, and I suppose many sindar outside Doriath still considered him as their high-king. It is natural that some of the nomad sindar hunters would eventually find some Avari and trade stories…


quote:
Question: Do you think Beren would have succeeded if Luthien had not gone with him?

“Definitely not. Lúthien was Beren's Sam Gamgee. “

Well, I think it might be that Beren was Luthien’s Sam. ;)

[Ñólendil]

As for his being afraid, yes, but I still think it to be because of his dreams. I believe that he saw some great peril to come to Doriath because of men, and probably thought it fulfilled through Beren. If he thought he still had anything to fear from the Atani, he never would have taken in Turin as his foster son

Are you sure about that? This all seems to paint an ugly picture about Elu after the return of Beren, as though he had not changed. I believe that Thingol did change (I think you do too), whether he thought Beren the reason for his ominous visions or not, I think he still would have fostered Túrin.

Dan I think is the old form of the name. Later it was revealed to Tolkien that his name was actually Lenwë, or his name in Quenya histories anyway. I believe his Nandorin name was Denweg, or something alone those lines. I don't recall his Primitive Quendian name.

More of the Avari I think were Nelyar, akin to the Teleri (rather than Tatyar, akin to the Ñoldor).

Yes, I am sure the Avari never entered Doriath. They were secretive folk living in the southern forests, akin to the Ñoldor and hostile to them. I imagine if Thingol would only allow his own kin from other Races into his Guarded Realm, he certainly would not allow (he and Melian would not allow, it's very difficult to pass the Girdle) Avari in, who were not akin to him and had no Lindarin blood.

News might come to him, certainly, if these Avari were friendly, but they were not. And the Teleri did not come into contact with their Avarin kin until later Ages had come, long after the Ruin of Doriath. (The Silvan Elves of the Woodland Realm and the Galadhrim had mingled with Avari). Your only problem seems to be the lack of The War of the Jewels :) Quendi and Eldar is in there, which includes all this information about the Nandor and Avari.

[Finmandos12]

I agree with Inoldonil. I think that he did change, eventually. He

[adanedhel]

Are you sure about that? This all seems to paint an ugly picture about Elu after the return of Beren, as though he had not changed. I believe that Thingol did change (I think you do too), whether he thought Beren the reason for his ominous visions or not, I think he still would have fostered Túrin.
Upon further reflection, I agree that he would have fostered Turin no matter what. After he accepted Beren as his kin, Turin became a member of his extended family, and Thingol seemed to place much value on kinship. I do believe that he DID change after Beren, in his attitudes towards men at any rate. Witness his words regarding the Dragon Helm of Dor-Lomin, "Proud were the head that bore this helm, which the sires of Hurin bore."

Also, his actions after Hurin had thrown the Nauglamir at his feet, he was moved to pity, rather than anger.

I have also had reason to re-think my former reaction to Thingol's harsh words to the Dwarves when they withheld the Nauglamir from him. I said earlier that it was his pride that undid him in that moment. It seems obvious to me now that there were also two more powerful forces at work.

One was the fact that the Nauglamir was presented to him by Hurin, a man that he respected, in memory of Turin, a man that he loved, and the Silmaril that was now a part of the Nauglamir was hard won by Beren and Luthien.

Second, was that the Doom of the Noldor had come upon him, for .."Thingol's thought turned uncreasingly to the jewel of Feanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury..."

His words to the Dwarves were my only problem with thinking that he had truly and totally changed. Now that I look at it in this light however, that he couldn't help himself because of his lust for the Silmaril, and his love for Beren, Luthien, and Turin, I beleive that he truly did change, but his doom was sealed the minute he even gave thought to possession of a Silmaril.

[Ñólendil]

Looked up Lenwë's Primitive Elvish name: turns out it wasn't Primitive Quendian at all, but Common Eldarin (the language the Eldar developed during the Great Journey and ancestor of all Eldarin languages). It was Denwego.

It may be noted there is no narrative written by JRR Tolkien dealing with Thingol and the Dwarves when Middle-earth existed. We only know he 'quarreled with the Dwarves'. He was either lured out of Doriath, or induced to go to war, and was slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departed, the Girdle was lifted and the Dwarves ravaged Doriath. Of The Ruin of Doriath seems to be the chapter Christopher Tolkien regrets most. He sort of went beyond his role as 'editor'.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, even I agree that Thingol changed after Beren. He was much more accepting of Men, and his fostering of Turin reflects how great this change was.

[adanedhel]

It may be noted there is no narrative written by JRR Tolkien dealing with Thingol and the Dwarves when Middle-earth existed. We only know he 'quarreled with the Dwarves'. He was either lured out of Doriath, or induced to go to war, and was slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departed, the Girdle was lifted and the Dwarves ravaged Doriath. Of The Ruin of Doriath seems to be the chapter Christopher Tolkien regrets most. He sort of went beyond his role as 'editor'.
I know, I know, I get that all of the time when I quote from "The Ruin of Doriath". That is why I rarely quote from the Silmarillion outside of a discussion about the book itself.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by adanedhel

I know, I know, I get that all of the time when I quote from "The Ruin of Doriath". That is why I rarely quote from the Silmarillion outside of a discussion about the book itself. I am more inclined to stick to the account in the Silmarillion because it was what I read first. There were no HoMe then. Also it is what I am most familiar with since I have not had the opportunity to read the accounts in the HoMe aside from Morgoth's Ring, and in that I have only read the Athrabeth in full.

[adanedhel]

I know, for a long time the Silmarillion was all I had to go on about the First Age. It is very hard for me to go against what was written there. It would be like someone telling me 'much of what you think you know about the Roman Empire is wrong...but here are some other books which contradict what you know...'
:eek: :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by adanedhel
I know, for a long time the Silmarillion was all I had to go on about the First Age. It is very hard for me to go against what was written there. It would be like someone telling me 'much of what you think you know about the Roman Empire is wrong...but here are some other books which contradict what you know...'
:eek: :confused: The problem with this particuliar mythology is that the Silmarillion was edited by the son of the author after his death unfortunately. He supposedly did a bit more then edit. He endeavored to be accurrate by going off of eledgeable notes and perhaps personal interpretations from a incomplete manuscript. However It was done sincerly and was well arranged. So it was a complete novel. For the reader at that time it was acceptable. I am not so sure that the HoMo and essays and notes published after, have not caused more harm then good. But if these accounts are the way Tolkien J.R.R. meant it to be, then this is the way it is. Afterall, this creation is from his imagination. We therefore have to accept that. But, until I can aquaint myself further with these changes, then I accept what I know, and that is the Silmarillion.

[adanedhel]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying but it appears we sort of agree. I understand what CT was trying to accomplish with the Silmarillion, and I think it was well done. What I was saying is that I wish that when I first read the Silmarillion years ago, that I would have known that he had embellished so much on his father's ideas. When I said that it was "hard for me to go against what was written there", I didn't mean that I accept it as JRRT's vision, but that it is hard for me to not have it be the first thing that pops in my mind when I discuss the First Age.

As for HoME doing more harm than good though, I disagree, without it there would be much less to argue about?:D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by adanedhel
I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying but it appears we sort of agree. I understand what CT was trying to accomplish with the Silmarillion, and I think it was well done. What I was saying is that I wish that when I first read the Silmarillion years ago, that I would have known that he had embellished so much on his father's ideas. When I said that it was "hard for me to go against what was written there", I didn't mean that I accept it as JRRT's vision, but that it is hard for me to not have it be the first thing that pops in my mind when I discuss the First Age.

As for HoME doing more harm than good though, I disagree, without it there would be much less to argue about?:D True, there would be much less to argue about. I can't argue about other accounts that I am not familiar with though. The HoMe is not an easy thing to get your hands on, or I would have read it by now. I should have said that by it being published made it more confusing for people like me that have not had that exposure than to say it did more harm then good. Bad choice of words. Sorry.:(

[adanedhel]

Don't be sorry, I was j/k.:)

[Ñólendil]

I know, I know, I get that all of the time when I quote from "The Ruin of Doriath". That is why I rarely quote from the Silmarillion outside of a discussion about the book itself.

I see. You know, I think I'm guilty of not reading that chapter in a long time. I should, so I know what story most people are talking about.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I told all my family, nobody cared. I told all my friends, nobody cared. Now I'm telling you guys, and I know you'll care. Today, I went out and bought: "The Lost Road and Other Writings" and "The Book of Lost Tales 2." So, I'm getting there.:)

[Ñólendil]

You must read the Lost Road! (that is, the actual text called The Lost Road inside The Lost Road and Other Writings). Of all Tolkien's writings, it is the most dear to me. Of course you are free to trash it when you are finished, but I hope you get a chance to read it all the same :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
You must read the Lost Road! (that is, the actual text called The Lost Road inside The Lost Road and Other Writings). Of all Tolkien's writings, it is the most dear to me. Of course you are free to trash it when you are finished, but I hope you get a chance to read it all the same :) Thank you Inoldonil. I also have Morgoth's Ring on order, so I will be good and armed for our next debate hopefully.:)

[sheelova]

I think Fingolfin is getting a bad rap here. Yes he did make some foolish decisions. However leading the Noldor out of Valinor was not his idea, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was against it, but many of the Noldor wanted to leave, though they were unwilling to follow Feanor. I'm not saying that he made the right decission here,I'm just trying to make a point. Another thing is that even though he never had a chance against Morgoth, it was an act of valour , not foolie, that is why Tolkien named him, " Most proud and valiant of the elven kings of old." And besides he's always been my favorite.

[Ñólendil]

I am not one that has 'anything against' any character, but as valiant as it was, it was also rash and foolish. One may be both brave and foolish.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by sheelova
I think Fingolfin is getting a bad rap here. Yes he did make some foolish decisions. However leading the Noldor out of Valinor was not his idea, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was against it, but many of the Noldor wanted to leave, though they were unwilling to follow Feanor. I'm not saying that he made the right decission here,I'm just trying to make a point. Another thing is that even though he never had a chance against Morgoth, it was an act of valour , not foolie, that is why Tolkien named him, " Most proud and valiant of the elven kings of old." And besides he's always been my favorite. When I said that Fingolfin's decision was foolish, because there was never any hope of victory, I also said this choice was made more out of anger than wisdom. Fingolfin had tried even before the Bragolach to muster the Elves to attack Angband, but no one was willing to break the seige. So, when Angband attacked with "sudden flame" it was a disaster. Fingolfin's two nephews were killed, all of Ard-Galen was destroyed, and Felagund was nearly killed. I guess that would be enough to set off your temper and make you want to hurt the other guy. The trouble with Fingolfin's choice, although brave, there was never any hope. He did get in seven good wacks, but he died doing it.:(

[adanedhel]

The trouble with Fingolfin's choice, although brave, there was never any hope. He did get in seven good wacks, but he died doing it.
I agree, and it seems to me that in doing so, Fingolfin proved more like his elder half-brother than anyone.

Feanor said, "Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. ........Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it....."

[sheelova]

A just argument, and I willingly admit that there was never any hope in his plight. How ever I do not agree with the comparison between Fingolfin and Feanor. True there is a fine line between rash actions, and those of valor. Fingolfin's act was not self motivated, he did not intend to put himself into a position of heroism. He did something that was not reasonable, that no other mortal ever dared, but his ultimate motivation, whether direct or indirect was love, love for those lost ( granted that's my opinion), and also what the inoccuring events portended. He believed that the Nolder were beyond redress of all the Houses, in other words their cause had become hopeless ( though it always was). Valent actions are the stuff that legends are made of ( yes I know that sounds cliched), and hopeless deeds are the fiber of Tolkien's writings. We revel in his writing because common people often achieve the impossible, or at least improbable. In this case it was nessessary that Fingolfin should try and fail, it was never concievable that he shuold succeed. How much hope was there in Beren and Luithen's plight? Though Beren's love was a more obvious motivation, his and Luithien's actions were "rash" if one wants to lable it thus. Besides the matter of who was the best elven king is, at least in part, a matter of opinion. Though maybe I should not say that Fingolfin was the best, he is at least my favorite though.

[Galadriel2002]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
I almost cried when he died. Almost.


i was upset when he died