What happens to the Dwarves?

[Curandir]

What do you suppose happens to the dwarves when they die? I don't even know if they know. Another question would be do they know Iluvatar as the elves knew him, or the humans for that matter. I guess to sum up that question are there differn't relidgous thoughts on ME?

[adanedhel]

I read somewhere (Silmarillion I think) that the Elves believe that the Dwarves return to the earth and stone that they are made from.

The Dwarves believe that Aule gathers them to separate halls in Mandos. They will aid Aule in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

I haven't read all of the HoME books though so there might be different, more complete thoughts about it in there though.

[The Eye of Fangorn]

I believe in the second choice. Dwarves are awaitng in the halls of Mandos. They are after all masters of stone and metals so they will be helping to reshape Arda in the days of new beginning.

[Ñólendil]

One point of interest is something that is said at the end of the latest account of the making of the Dwarves. In a writing dating from 1968 or later, associated with Glorfindel in origin but concerned with the 'reincarnations' of the Fathers of the Dwarves, Tolkien entered in an account of Aulë's making of that Race, but Tolkien decided the essay was not the place for it. Christopher Tolkien nonetheless points out a very remarkable element at the end, that states that after the Dwarves were put back to sleep, Eru declared they would be the Third Children and more like to Men, the Second.

The Dwarrows of course would have had no way of knowing this.

In that essay JRR Tolkien also decided that the Dwarves' relationship to the world, to the Valar and to Eru must have been very much different from that of the other Races.

For those who haven't read it yet, it is in Vol. XII of HoMe, Peoples of Middle-earth: Late Writings; Last Writings; Glorfindel.

[Curandir]

Those are my thoughts exactly Inoldonil. The Dwarves seem to be outside looking in, in most of the stories in Sil. In LOTR however we do see the personality of a few of these people but are held at a distance. We don't know their language, we never see their women, or young for that matter, the true names of each of our favorites are even kept from us. It would be great to think that Eru could make these his third born. Sort of like in Christianity the Gentiles becoming part of the Covanent the Dwarves are the adopted children of Eru. (I know I'm going to get heat for that!) :)

[Finmandos12]

I would think of them more as the descendants of Ishmael. Aule did not do what God intended, but he did with a pure heart. Because of this, they were allowed to stay alive, but the Dwarves/Arabs came into conflict with the Jews/Elves.

[Curandir]

thats exactly right, Ishmael was born outside of the promice of God. His mother and he were sent into excile, but the decendants of Ishmael became part of the Covenant with Abraham, "your decendants will be like the sand of the sea", I'm paraphrasing, and finally from the Christian side part of the promice of salvation through the Messiah.

[Kyote Fields]

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!! PREACH IT!! :D
Didn't Tolkien have some sort of affiliation with C.S. Lewis? That might be where the idea came from to have initials for first names. :rolleyes:

[Finmandos12]

They were very good friends, actually. They both taught at either Cambridge or Oxford, I don't remember which.

[galadriel]

Cool ideas about M-e religion. :cool:

I definitely think that the Dwarves are going to have some part in new Arda, and the idea of Eru taking in the product of Aule's good-intentioned mistakes is nice. The Ismael metaphor is great. There a lot of things in Tolkien you can look at from a biblical perspective, since he *was* a Christian and wanted to make a world which Christianity could be applied to.

Another question related to this one: are all the races--Vala, Elf, Human, and Dwarf--going to be reunited in the end? I'd like to believe that they will, and that the sad partings of Luthien and Arwen from their kindred will turn out to be happy endings. Tolkien is kind of ambiguous about this, although he reveals a lot about the Elf afterlife up until the End of the World, he doesn't say much about the afterlives of Men or Dwarves, and apparently the Valar don't even know what Eru has in mind for them. What do you guys think?

[Curandir]

They both taught the same subject at Oxford. Ancent English Literature. They are my favorite authors. I don't think the Tolkien used Lewis' idea for the initials though. I know that C.S. Lewis disliked the name Clive so he abbreviated it instead. His close friends called him by a nickname which escapes me at the moment, but I will get it probably while laying in bed tonight, a revelation which will probably propell me to the computer! One of Lewis' stories which I find very compelling is The Great Divorce. I highly suggest it to anyone.

[sheelova]

Although this doesn't apply to all dwarves, in the appendix to TLOR it says that it was rumored that Gimli sailed into the West with Leagolas. I don't know if this has any relivace to the other Dwarves since Tour was allowed to be counted as on of the forst born, maybe Gimli was a similar case, maybe not. I just wanted to point that out. And it was quoted as rumor, not fact.

[Finmandos12]

Maybe Gimli's permission to go to Valinor had something to do with his friendship with Legolas, since there were so few friendships between the two races... Just a thought.

[sheelova]

I think the book says that Galadriel had something to do with him being allowed to go.

[Curandir]

I guess I always thought the whole Fellowship was somehow "grandfathered" into eternal life with the firstborn.

[Finmandos12]

Yes, I do remember Galaddriel being mentioned with Gimli.

[galadriel]

I'm almost positive that going West was only a temporary healing for Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam (if you remember, Sam eventually went over Sea too). So, they eventually died, although a combination of the Ring's effect and the healing powers of the West probably gave them a longer life span than usual.

I think that the same thing happened with Gimli: he was privileged to spend many years of bliss in Tol Eressea, but in the end, he died like any normal Dwarf. Basically, the fates of the people of Middle-earth can only be changed by direct intervention by Eru.

[Finmandos12]

They probably did die, because in Akallabeth, when the Numenoreans wanted to live forever, an emissary from the Valar told them that it was not Valinor that gave them everlasting life, but that it was their fate.

[Curandir]

Now that is an excellent point!

[arynetrek]

well, we know for sure four of the fellowship did die - boromir, merry, pippin, & aragorn.

but maybe they'll get preferential treatment wherever they go outside the Circles of the World

which brings up another question - Hobbits: do they end up in Mandos or Outside? i believe they're close enough to Men that they'd go Outside, anyone know what happens to them?

aryne *

[Wayfarer]

Hobbits... as a race of men, go 'outside'.

[arynetrek]

thanks!

aryne *

[Ñólendil]

well, we know for sure four of the fellowship did die - boromir, merry, pippin, & aragorn.

All of them did, except for Legolas. For all mortals must die. Frodo and Sam and Gimli going over Sea means they would actually die sooner than they would in Middle-earth, but that they would die in peace. Gandalf died on Zirak-zigil, but returned. That leaves Legolas only.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil

All of them did, except for Legolas. For all mortals must die. Frodo and Sam and Gimli going over Sea means they would actually die sooner than they would in Middle-earth, but that they would die in peace.

Is this certain? The average reader of LotR (and I can count myself to them) do get the impression that another fate awaits especially the Ringbearers. At least they would not die earlier!

I guess you can cough up a quote or two from Letters on this issue? ;)

[Ñólendil]

The idea that mortals life in Valinor was quickened is implied in The Silmarillion, perhaps the Akallabêth can be looked at, near the end of the chapter. I may be wrong about that. But they certainly do not meet a different fate.

The Letters I do indeed hold dear. This quote comes from Letter # 154 and was coincidentally sent in 1954: ... in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations [concerning mortality vs. 'immortality' and the like] (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' -- of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)

The following is from # 325 and was written in 1971, two years before it's author's death: As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time -- whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

I found this by looking up 'Mortality' in the extremely helpful Index. I'd be lost without it.

The strong implication in these passages is that I'm totally wrong about mortals dying sooner in Aman than they would in Middle-earth.