OK! Let's start a discussion on Barrow-Wights.

[ringbearer]

This is one of the creepiest parts of LOTR!

Were they spirits of dead kings?
Who were the men of Carn Dun? (sp)
I picture Stonehenge when reading this section.

[Finmandos12]

Barrow-Wights were evil spirits from Angmar. After Gondor and the Elves defeated Angmar, they took over the bodies of buried kings. (shudder) They are creepy.

[ringbearer]

Yes they are embodied spirits. What of their origin(what were they before they became spirits...or were they always spirits?)

[Theodred]

ringbearer- the spelling is Carn Dum. :)

The barrow-wights were very frightening, I had bad dreams after I had first read that chapter! *shiver*

[Ñólendil]

Carn Dum is the chief city of Angmar I believe, or it was.

I had an argument a while ago with Michael Martinez over this. It's been his long lasting belief that the Barrow-wights were either lesser Maian spirits or Elvish wraiths. I believe it is in some way possible that they were in origin Men.

[Comic Book Guy]

If they were maia, does that do to the Bombadil debate?

[Earendilyon]

I always considered them to be human spirits, of men of Arnor or one of the kingdoms created out of Arnor.

[Finmandos12]

I think the men of Carn Dun were related to the hillmen from the ettenmoors.
:eek:

[Theodred]

I thought they were elven wraiths, heavily corrupted by Morgoth!
But that's just me! :D

[Ñólendil]

Comic Book Guy, no, I don't think that would do anything to the Bombadil debate.

[hiku747]

so what would have happened if frodo hadnt woken up? i know the barrow wrights steal jewels and gold and stuff, but werent the hobbits wrapped up in sheets? what would have happened? i am so confused!! :confused:

[ringbearer]

They would have been killed! I read that the wights were servants of the Enemy...so the ring would have been found also.

[jediguy]

I like to think that they're spirits of men, corrupted by the Witch-king. When he was defeated, they came out of Carn-dum and down to inhabit the barrows of kings.

I read somewhere that the barrows themselves are very, very old. Something about them being the graves of men before they passed over the Ered Luin into Beleriand. Can anyone confirm this?

[WearyPilgrim]

They could not have been the spirits of Men, the chapter "Of Men" in the Silmarillion says that :

"What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the Halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur."

Even the Valar have no power over the dead spirits of Men ( with the exception of Beren ), so the Witch King could not possibly have. Yes, the Barrows dated back to the ancient days of the First Age before the meeting of Elves and Men, and were considered a sacred area until the final destrucion of Arthedain where the princes of the Great Houses of the Edain were buried. So, not Men. Elvish wraiths, I doubt it, there is no evidence. That only leaves lesser Maia spirits, I favour this one, sent by the Witch King to give the impression that the ancient dead had arisen, to generate fear in the local area and as an insult against his former enemies ( the greatest of which would have been buried there ).

[Ñólendil]

But there were exceptions. I wasn't suggesting the Wights were Mannish spirits returned from withersoever Mannish spirits go, but rather that they never went. Remember the Dead Men of Dunharrow, doomed to remain and haunt their old realm as ghosts, until their oath is fulfilled. Doomed by Isildur and some necromatic arts.

And if there is no evidence pointing to Elvish wraiths, then there is also no evidence pointing to lesser Maiar. But Elvish wraiths are said to be summoned at times by dark magic and actually to have possessed the unweary. Wraiths refusing the summons of Mandos, that is.

Welcome, by the way!

[WearyPilgrim]

The Deadmen of Dunharrow were cursed by Isildur while they were still alive, doomed to remain until the fulfilment of their Oath as you correctly say, however, the dead of the Barrows were already dead and their spirits gone, their bodies only were buried there, after all they will have died elsewhere, either in battle, or of old age and disease, then their spirits would have been released to the Mansions of the Dead.

Additionally the Men that accepted the Nine Rings of Power from Sauron and became the Ringwraiths were alive when they did so, the Rings stretching their “lives” and turning them into shadows.

There is admittedly a few holes in my argument, in “Of Beren and Luthien” there is the passage about the “wraith of Gorlim” coming to warn Beren, but that was soon after his own death and then only in a dream.

Tolkien does say that the Barrow wights were sent there by the Witch King, now what were they ? I think I may have argued sufficiently that they could not in all probability have been the spirits of Men – LOL :) – ( remember the quote from my first post says that only Beren ever came back ), but as you say it could have been Elvish Wraiths, Tolkien did write that not all of the Elvish dead went to Mandos, in “Morgoth’s Ring” it does says that Morgoth could interrupt their passage to Mandos and bring them under his control, but that was Morgoth, one of the Vala, could Sauron, only one ( very powerful ) of the Maia of Aule do the same, I know he was called the Necromancer before he returned to Mordor but we do not know for what reason ?

I still think it could have been a lesser Maia, after all a Balrog still existed, and not all the Maia that served Morgoth were captured or destroyed after his fall, e.g. the Balrog of Moria, could not other former servants have escaped also and then joined up with Sauron ? Could it not have been some of these that would earn the name of Barrow Wight ?

Finally I have to say that nothing is quite clear cut in this question, trying to sort all the info ( some of which is just a bit vague ) into a coherent argument is giving me a bit of a headache :confused: , but it is going to be fun arguing the point … LOL :) .

Thanks for the Welcome … I look forward to the further crossing of swords, touché.

[Ñólendil]

It is more or less clear that the Wights inhabited the bones of the buried dead of the Downs, but I haven't heard that they were dead in some fashion when the Witchking got a hold of them. If this was said, certainly no one could believe they were lesser Maiar. We just know they were spirits.

The chief thing seen with the Dead Men of Dunharrow that I was trying to get across is that it is possible that the wraiths of Men could be held from leaving the Circles of the World. Not likely to happen, it very seldom does, but it's possible.

According to my dictionary, necromancy is 'conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events'. Necromancy seems to be a type of Sorcery in Tolkien's works. A Necromancer (there are two characters in the Lord of the Rings of which I am aware that are called this) would naturally be one who conjures spirits, etc., one who studies necromancy.

In Morgoth's Ring which you mention, Sauron is stated to be -- at the period of the height of his power with the Ring -- greater than Morgoth was towards the end of the First Age.

I don't think it unlikely that they were lesser Maiar (although most of these I think were destroyed in the War of Wrath {most that served Morgoth} certainly there were many others than the Balrog that survived), or Elvish Wights. My argument is simply that it is possible, however unlikely that they were Mannish ghosts.

[Erewe]

I'll have to go read that chapter again, but I could have sworn that Tolkien says right there that they're spirits of men.

BTW, don't forget CT's introduction to the Sil. Complete consistance is not to be looked for. Tolkien changed his mind about many things many times. Perhaps at one time he felt that the spirits of men couldn't hang around, and later (or earlier) he felt they could.

--Erewë

[WearyPilgrim]

Before I give another lengthy reply .. LOL .. I thought that I would bring up something connected to the Barrow-wights, namely why did they not take the opportunity to remove the Ring from Frodo when they captured him and rendered him unconcious ? It just seems a bit odd ... it would have made the book shorter ... LOL .. but given Tolkien's thoroughness in writing and re-writing the LoTR ... it seems a bit of omission.

[ladyisme]

Perhaps the Barrow-Wrights couldn't sense the ring as could the Black Riders. After all Frodo himself was not striped and serched as were the others and it seems possible that the ring was tempting Frodo to put it on in order to get the wrights to notice it.

"The road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began."

[Elvellon]

Great input, WearyPilgrim and Inoldonil!

Just a question, what if the Witch King corrupted the spirits he intended to transform into barrow whights Before they were dead?
He certainly could have devise a plan to keep using some of his human servants after their deaths, and he had the knowledge of how to it (just think of the Morgul knifes). ;)

[Ñólendil]

Erewe, Pippin or Merry does mention the 'Men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted'. They had evidently been reliving the attack on Arnor from the North in dream.

There's no contradiction as far as I'm concerned, with the spirits of Men leaving the Circles of the World. That was a fixed idea for a long time. There were simply some very rare acceptions (such as Ringwraiths or the 'Gwathuirim' of the White Mountains).

[Agburanar]

What if the Wights weren't against the Hobbits, but the dark lord? If the Witch King cursed them to eternal sleeplessness they would have wanted revenge. If they sensed the Ring as Sauron's tool they could have thought the Hobbits were his servants!

[ladyisme]

Possible but it doesn't seem likely when you read the song of the Barrow-Wights though.

"The road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began."

[olorin]

This is responding to an early post in this topic, where Weary Pilgrim says:

. Yes, the Barrows dated back to the ancient days of the First Age before the meeting of Elves and Men, and were considered a sacred area until the final destrucion of Arthedain where the princes of the Great Houses of the Edain were buried.

Maybe I am mistaken, but in the Sil, in the Rings of Power part, doesn't it say that the tombs were remants of the realm of Arnor? Something about how the "grass grew over and covered them" or something? If I had my copy of the Sil I would look, but right now I don't.

[fatclown]

I saw movie pictures and the barrow wights look fricking insane! They are worse than the alien from the movie... alien. They are freaky.. see if you can find more on that i might try to get a link..

[Comic Book Guy]

Barrow-wights are in the movie? I never knew that. Those pictures you saw could be a picture of a toy I saw once.

[WearyPilgrim]

Responding to Olorin.

If you look in the index of Unfinished Tales and look up Barrow-downs it says :
Downs east of the Old Forest, on which were great burial- mounds said to have been built in the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain before they entered Beleriand
The quote you are referring to is on p 350 of the Silmarillion in the Of the Rings of Power chapter :
At Fornost upon the North Downs also the Numenoreans dwelt, and in Cardolan, and in the hills of Rhudaur; and towers they raised upon Emyn Beraid and upon Amon Sul; and there remain many barrows and ruined works in those places, but the towers of Emyn Beraid still look towards the sea.
but I don't think it refers directly to the Barrow Downs.

[Michael Martinez]

It is highly unlikely that the wights were the spirits of Men. The only case where Sauron prevented human spirits from leaving Middle-earth (in any published text) for any length of time consists of the Nazgul, to whom he gave Rings of Power, and which they possessed for thousands of years before he took them back.

Gorlim's spirit visits Beren in a dream, but Gorlim has also just died, and he doesn't hang around Middle-earth for thousands of years.

Isildur certainly cursed the Dead Men of Dunharrow, but he alone could not have had the power to force their spirits to remain in Middle-earth. That would have been an unnatural act. He had to act with the knowledge and approval of Iluvatar himself. That is, Iluvatar may have moved Isildur to speak his curse (I don't believe Iluvatar would have conversed with Isildur). Isildur was, at that time, still acting "righteously", and as a leader of the Faithful Dunedain he was not about to step outside the bounds appointed to Men by Iluvatar and the Valar. He only did so later on when he came under the Ring's influence.

That said, there is no way (based on currently published texts) to prove what the wights were or were not, beyond simply "spirits" inhabiting old skeletons.

The Edain of the First Age had passed through the region, according to Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, and many of their early chieftains were buried there. Hence, the Kings of Arnor and later Cardolan (along with various princes) were also buried in the downs (presumably, Valandil must have been buried somewhere in the region).

The barrow where the wight held Frodo and his companions is suggested to be that of the last Prince of Cardolan (a man not descended of Isildur's male line), who died in the war of 1409. In that war, Angmar overran Rhudaur and Cardolan. The Dunedain were pushed back to the Weather Hills and North Downs (in the north) and the Barrow-downs and Old Forest (in the south). The forces of Angmar appear (based on Merry's outburst) to have overrun the prince's camp at night. However, if he was given a proper Dunadan burial, his body must have been recovered, and he was either carried off or else the Dunedain drove the Angmarians back very quickly.

Merry's outburst may be a glimpse of something Tolkien did not reuse later on. Some people have suggested that it may imply he was possessed by the spirit of a Dunadan, but I don't believe so. I think Merry was simply "impressed" with memories from a haunted place, such memories being similar (perhaps) to the memories of the stones in Eregion, which only Legolas could hear bemoaning the ancient departure of the Elves.

[Agburanar]

Sorry to drag on about my earlier theory, but I looked at the song of the Barrow Wights and it says "'till the Dark Lord lifts his hand" or something of that sort. Doesn't that mean until Sauron has left Middle Earth? In that case the Wights would have seen the destruction of the ring as a way of lifting their curse.

What If Tom Bombadil was actually the chief Wight and had been allowed the luxury barrow?

[Comic Book Guy]

I think it means the orignal Dark Lord Morgoth, not Sauron.

[Michael Martinez]

The wights were sent to inhabit Tyrn Gorthad by the Lord of the Nazgul, who served Sauron, not Morgoth (by that time, long dead and departed).

Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone;
never more to wake on stony bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.
In the black wind the stars shall die,
and still on gold here let them lie,
till the dark lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land.

I don't think this refers to Morgoth. The first two lines seem to refer to death, as in the death of the wight's intended victims: their bodies will be cold, and their (deathly) sleep will be cold inside the barrow. The 3rd and 4th lines may mean they won't return to life as long as the Sun and Moon last.

The last four lines therefore could refer to either Sauron or Morgoth, but in one of his letters Tolkien noted that, in the Third Age, Sauron claimed to be Morgoth returned. So, even if the wight was referring to a (hopeful) future where the dark lord conquered all light, he would still be speaking of Sauron.

Sauron was the active dark power at that time. It would not make much sense for his slaves to ignore him in their incantations (or ad lib poetry -- there is nothing to indicate this was actually a spell).

[Agburanar]

So if they won't wake until sun and moon have fallen does this mean Sauron has to win first, then they'll be free when he's gone? Or could it refer to the elves leaving Middle Earth, in which case are they freed when they leave from the Grey Havens? Is Bombadil waiting to re-direct them?

[Michael Martinez]

I honestly think it just means they are never supposed to wake up again.

[Snowdog]

The barrow where the wight held Frodo and his companions is suggested to be that of the last Prince of Cardolan (a man not descended of Isildur's male line), who died in the war of 1409. In that war, Angmar overran Rhudaur and Cardolan. The Dunedain were pushed back to the Weather Hills and North Downs (in the north) and the Barrow-downs and Old Forest (in the south). The forces of Angmar appear (based on Merry's outburst) to have overrun the prince's camp at night. However, if he was given a proper Dunadan burial, his body must have been recovered, and he was either carried off or else the Dunedain drove the Angmarians back very quickly.I always figured in battle they swept through an area, and moved on. They were not an 'occupying army per se, but more like the Mongols of the 13th century and destroyed as they went once organized resistance was swept aside.

[crickhollow]

Tossing this in for the heck of it: According to the glos. in my copy of canterbury tales, wight merely means person, or man. hmm...barrowman doesn't quite give the same creepy crawly feeling as barrowwight