Gandalf's Staff

[webwizard333]

We all know he had one, but what was it good for? Did he use it to increase his powers?

[Fat middle]

it seems to be necessary to do his tricks: to break Moria's bridge, to cast light in the mines, to defeat Wormtongue...

do you think it works like a ring?

[Finmandos12]

He probably used it to focus his "magic". I don't think it increased his power. The wizard's rods were unique in some way.

[juntel]

"Coolness" was also important in these ages...

[morkhon]

I've always seen the wizards' staffs as a mark of their station and a focus for their power, but not neccessary or where their power came from. They were Maiar after all.

[hiku747]

i always thought gandalf's staff had its own sort of power, power he could derive to use, but not that it actually made him more powerful, but it also gave people a more powerful and respectful view of him. Fat Middle he needed it for certain tasks, like you said...

[Ñólendil]

I agree with juntel, an Istar can't look cool without a staff.

I don't think though that there were was any power in the staff itself, save that which held up a certain kind of spiritual authority and office. It is much more dangerous in the hands of a Wizard than someone else and can evidently be put to good use magic-wise (remember The King in the Golden Hall chapter), but I don't think anyone else could have done much with one, save strike another with it.

[Meneldil]

I thought their staff had an essence of their power, after all how else Gandalf make it impossible for Saruman to use spell?

[webwizard333]

Maybe, the staff's allowed the Istari to channel their powers, or the staffs were like the Rings of Power.

[The Eye of Fangorn]

I don't think he needed it. He was a maia after all. Not all wizards had a staff. Radagast didn't had one. Though he wasn't as powerfull as Gandalf.

[Meneldil]

But what exactly did Gandalf do when he broke the staff of Saruman?

[thephantomcat]

They may have been Maia but when they came to middle earth as messengers they pretty much agreed to be human for a while. I think that without his staff. Gandalf wouldn't be able to do any of his "tricks." He would still be wise and see things other people couldn't like the future and read peoples' minds the same way that Saruman could still influence people with his voice. But I don't think that a dwarf could chop up the staff with his axe, either.

[Ñólendil]

Radagast had a staff, all the Wizards did. This is said in Tolkien's writings on the matter, published in Unfinished Tales (Of the Istari). It's simply not described. I wonder what sort of tree it came from. Gandalf's was ash-wood. Saruman's we just know to be black and heavy and I suppose it's possible that it wasn't even wood (as the staff of Saruman in the movies). A stone staff would indeed be fitting for one of the people of Aulë.

Don't forget phantomcat, that Gandalf did not use his staff when he lit the faggot in the Redhorn Pass, or anyway as far as I remember.

[bombcar]

I think the staff had to be part of his "kit" as it were, and also a symbol of his office. This would explain the breaking of Saruman's staff and Grima's comment about weapons and wizards.

Also, Gandalf's staff was used to produce light at least once, in Moria, if I remember correctly.:p

[galadriel]

i agree with phantomcat. Based on what I read in "Unfinished Tales", the job of Gandalf and the rest of the Istari was not to fight Sauron by openly using their powers, but to subtly guide the people of Middle-earth in the struggle against the Enemy, using their powers only when neccessary. Because of this, their powers were pretty limited. It seems like the staffs controlled most of their powers, except for their natural wisdom and intuition. True, Gandalf didn't hold up his staff and do the whole spell routine everytime he wanted a little light, but maybe just having it with him was enough for little things like light and fireworks.

I'll agree that the staff did have a lot to do with image. Not only did it look super cool, it gave Gandalf a lot of authority, showing that he had the powers that went along with being a "servant of the secret fire".

Hey, what does that mean anyway, "servant of the secret fire"? What's the secret fire? I'm assuming it has something to do with Aule. If anyone knows, tell me, ok?

The comments about it being like a ring make sense: it seems that their magic is vested in the staff the same way that Sauron's power was put into the ring.

I wonder what *could* destroy a staff... definitely not a misplaced axe or sword! My guess is that only a Maia or a Vala could break a staff, since it would be way too easy to rob a wizard of his power otherwise.

There's one other good use for a staff that you're all forgetting: unless he was having fun being SuperGandalf the White, Gandalf actually needed the staff as a cane. He and the rest of the Istari are in the form of old men, remember?

[treebeard]

I believe Gandalf focused some magic on it but not much.I do not think it is as powerful as the ring.Gandalf says I Gandalf the Grey know dark has more power.The ring was made by the hands of Suaron.Therefor I think the ring is stronger. :D

[ringbearer]

I would not want to pick a fight with Gandalf...with or without his staff...it is mostly a symbol.

[Ñólendil]

If you really pay close attention, you may find Gandalf needed no prop for old age whatsoever. He's not your average toofwess ol' gaffer, he was hardy, agile, strong and lithe.

[thephantomcat]

When all is said and done, if I were a wizard, I'd want a staff just like Gandalf's so I could look super cool like him. :) And not just a puny wand. (evading flying fruit thrown by Potter fans.) jk

[webwizard333]

Wands lack the triple edged power of a staff.While a magic wand can only cast spells, a magic staff can cast spells, bonk others on the head with, and help you climb mountains. :D

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Never thought about this before.....

The first thing I think of is when Gandalf broke Saruman's staff. But was that just a symbol? Was it just meant to be an outward sign of what had already happened?

And about who could break a wizards staff....could it be that Gandalf was able to break Saruman's because he had disobeyed the orders given them when the first came to middle-earth?

Then again, why did Gandalfs staff break when be broke the bridge in Moria? Gandfalf was still able to fight and kill the Balrog, but it was really hard for him, and he died shortly after. But then again the Balrog was almost too strong for him when they first met at Bolin's tomb, when Gandalfs staff was still doing fine...this is confusing!


--Samuel, the Strange-Looking Lurker

[Finmandos12]

Like I said above, I think Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff was a symbol of his expulsion from the Istari. Saruman had been the leader of the order, but after Gandalf died, he became the leader. Therefore, he had the authority to expel Saruman. The staff was a symbol of their office, so he broke Saruman's.

[anduin]

Me thinks you hit the wrong button. :b

You may want to repost this in the other thread.....

[Finmandos12]

thanks Anduin, I did accidentally hit New Thread

[Michelle The Fair]

In referance to "servent of the secret fire" it refers to one of the Three Rings Of Power held by the elves. This ring would be Narya, given to Gandalf by Cirdian, when Gandalf arrived at The Gray-Havens. Since Gandalf was the most poweful of the Istari it was important that he appear older and weaker than the others. so he lean on the staff some.

[Blackheart]

There's another valid interpretation if you hold to the idea that Olorion was also a servant of the flame imperishable. A "secret fire" of quite a different nature.

[Michelle The Fair]

I thought narya the most likely, because it was being kept secret.

[Blackheart]

Well, I consider it from several points of view.

One- gandalf is one of the Ainur. They do serve the flame- it's one of the reasons they came to Arda.

two- would gandalf actually consider himself a servant of the ring Narya? Or a guardian? Or merely someone using it? It seems an odd choice of words if he actually is referring to Narya.

lastly, the Dark Flame of Udun is set in opposition to Gandalf's role as a servant of the Secret fire. Udun is the Sindarin name for Uttumno, Morgoths first and greatest citadel, and realy quite synonomous with hell, in the cosmology.

The easiest interpretation is basically - Go back to hell servant of Morgoth/darkness, I am a weilder of the power of Eru/light.

As far as wizards staffs, they WERE objects of power. But likely they served mostly as a means of focus. Unlike the rings, especially the one, which had a great deal of Morgoth's* power invested in it, the staffs of the wizards (5 staffs) were probably of a somewhat different nature, though anything would be speculation.

Although we can say breaking one doesn't ALWAYS lead to a boom- Saruman's staff didn't "firework" like Gandalfs. Probably the "fireworks" were due to the amount of power/will that he was focusing on it, and the method he chose to release it- breaking it. Which gives you an idea of just how desperate he was.

*(yes Morgoth, not Sauron's- it's complicated but there's good reason to think so- basically he tapped into the power Morgoth invested into middle earth in an effort to dominate it- Borrowing power from his master.)

[Lightice]

I thought their staff had an essence of their power, after all how else Gandalf make it impossible for Saruman to use spell?


I don't think so. Gandalf could defeat balrog without his staff. I don't think, that a sword is enough for that feat.
I believe, that staffs are symbols of Istari, not sources of their powers. They might focus their spells through the staff, but it's not essential.
I believe, that Saruman losing his powers was becouse of completely different things (curse of Valar) than breaking of his staff, which was only a symbolic gesture of him losing his station.

[Wulažg]

So if Gandalf broke his staff and it was a symbol of his office, then it meant that he probably knew htat he wasn't going to necessarily survive the conflict with the Balrog and so breaking his staff was symbolic of breaking out of the constrictions of the office of the Istari, to fight back with all the might of an Ainur, making him at least an equal of the Balrog. Of course, such a battle would be one of attrition and he would die in the process, especially since even if his body had survived the fight he would have had to regain his position as an Istari.

[Michelle The Fair]

that could be. Good thinking

[Blackheart]

Wulažg has the most commonly supported view, in my opinion. It's the one I espouse.

[Wulažg]

Sorry, I don't marry orcs;)

*tries to get bad thoughts out of head*

[Tar-Elendil]

the old dude had to have some kinda prop!;)
plus the idea seems just to fit..just image gandalf carryin around a magic wand!:eek:

[Elfhelm]

But Saruman's power was in his voice and the labors of those who obeyed him, so breaking Saruman's staff wouldn't cause fireworks.

[Wulažg]

That and his staff was broken by Gandalf, not destroyed on purpose by the owner. Kinda like a retributive strike with a Staff of the Magi in AD&D. If you break it for retribution there is a huge explosion but otherwise it just breaks.

[Blackheart]

I don't have to imagine Gandalf carrying around a wand.

He carried one around in the Hobbit, if you read closely. :eek:

[Wulažg]

Well that and in Norse Gandalf means "elvish wight with a (magiv) staff(or wand)"

[Tar-Elendil]

I don't have to imagine Gandalf carrying around a wand.
hm..i havent read the hobbit in awhile but i dont seem to remember that:confused:
could ya tell me where in the book ya read this?

[Blackheart]

In the portions where they are being taken by the goblins.

Tolkien forgot to change wand to staff.

[Wulažg]

SSSHHH! Tolkien is supposed to be perfect, he doesn't make "typos", he makes "creative changes" and "points for the readers to ponder upon";)

[Blackheart]

Ummm. Pfft.

He probably got buried under his notes once or twice and had to be dug out more likely.

[Lightice]

That and his staff was broken by Gandalf, not destroyed on purpose by the owner. Kinda like a retributive strike with a Staff of the Magi in AD&D. If you break it for retribution there is a huge explosion but otherwise it just breaks.


I don't think, that it matters what's said in AD&D. That's not something applying to LotR...
And I don't think, that there was anything special in that staff, exept that it was symbol of Istari and handy thing to focus spells with. I mean, if someone would have stolen it, it would have been just a stick. It's the carrier which gives the force, not the staff.

[Blackheart]

Well, if someone would have stolen it, they would have had a wizard's staff. Not just a stick.

The staves were objects of power.

It's doubtful that anyone could have used them effectively, but I doubt you'd find any wizards willing to just lay them aside... which would be the case if they were just sticks. After all you can just go pick up another stick anywhere.

[Wulažg]

My reference to AD&D was merely an example that many here could probably relate to, to facilitate in comrehension with the concept. It was Gandalf's staff, not just some stick. Breaking Saruman's staffotherwise would have done nothing. At the very least they are a symbol of their status(ditto with the beard but not really) and so have some innate power, in one of those subtle "magic" things that Tolkien was so fond of

[Ñólendil]

I think "wand" might just be taken to mean "staff" in The Hobbit.

[Blackheart]

In the original conception he used a wand. It's a bloody anacronism that's what it is!

[Elf Girl]

Maybe he decided that staffs were more effective after The Hobbit, so he went to Staffs-R-Us to get one. ;)

[Earniel]

What if the staff was -next to a symbol- a sort of battery? Perhaps the wizard could draw power from it when needed, or support for that matter. What'd you say?

[Wulažg]

He changed wand to staff because it was no longer just a children's story and staves are more mature. That and gandalf needed to look weaker as he had to die. Despite the fact that he was shooting white fire out of his hands near the end of RotK. I don't think he needed a battery then.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think (like Eärniel) that he did need a battery. Saruman's staff's broke down but he was anyway week. I think that this is the thing that finished the story for him. I think that days before the breaking of the staff he used it to take power, and when Gandalf broke it his powers disapeared.

[viggosbeard]

I thought he kept his pipe in it ...:confused:

[Radagast The Brown]

What pipe?? I don't understand.:confused:

[Wulažg]

His pipe for smoking pipeweed of course. He had a stash of the good stuff in Orthanc, remember?

[viggosbeard]

Maybe it wasnt Gandalfs love of the hobbits that made him a regular visit to the shire .....Longbottom leaf was stored in the tunnels at Michel Delving.

[Wulažg]

So was this "pipeweed" a tobacco equivalent, or was it something stronger?


*swipes some pipeweed and futily attempts to hide oversized pipe behind his back*

[Occasionally Jay]

I always saw the staff as a tool each wizard chose, and tied themselves up with.

They put a lot of power into it, and could draw it out--it worked just like they expected it to, and with it they could focus. Trying to use someone else's staff would be like trying to wear someone else's shoes: might work for a little while, but the size difference would give you blisters pretty darn quick.

[viggosbeard]

Who knows how strong pipeweed was - it should be noted though at the breaking of Isengard , Saruman had nicked it all for his army , maybe to keep them more mellow perhaps ? I mean what do Uruk Hai do on their day off , its a recipe for disaster !

[Agburanar]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but when Gandalf removes most of Saruman's power he does so by breaking Saruman's staff. The staff is a symbol of the wizard's order and seems to entitle them to most of their power. It's probably like a king's sceptre or a general's baton of office.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Wulažg

So was this "pipeweed" a tobacco equivalent, or was it something stronger?


*swipes some pipeweed and futily attempts to hide oversized pipe behind his back*

I don't think that the "pipe idea" is the true. I think that if he used the something as a mgical thing to take from it power, it's not a pipe.

originally posted by occasionally Jay

I always saw the staff as a tool each wizard chose, and tied themselves up with.

They put a lot of power into it, and could draw it out--it worked just like they expected it to, and with it they could focus. Trying to use someone else's staff would be like trying to wear someone else's shoes: might work for a little while, but the size difference would give you blisters pretty darn quick.

But in the moovieSaruman used in Gandalf's staff, didn't he? (of caurse that in the book Tolkien didn't write it... but still)

[Wulažg]

The pipeweed was a completely different issue:)