Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!

[ringbearer]

Not enough said about him in LOTR as far as I'm concernd. Elrond called him "Eldest" or something like that. Is he a Maiar?Valor in disguise? Exiled from Valinor? Not of this (Middle)Earth?
Any theories?

[Ben]

Well we've had this discussion before, but it's been awhile so why not do it again :p.

I believe Tom is a Maia, or maybe Iluvatar himself.

[ringbearer]

I've thought about Iluvatar as well...interesting! Like he's retired or something and just "observing". Has no more cares...so he just cares about his realm. However, at the Council of Elrond, Gandalf or Elrond said that in the end Sauron would even overcome his borders, or something like that. If He was Iluvatar, his powers were limited or diminished.

[Darth Tater]

OH DEAR! Not this again! Time to find a rock to hide under, or better yet a Balrog with wings

[ringbearer]

Sorry, new to this forum. I guess I should have searched!

[Ben]

Not a problem. I just searched and the last discussion on this seems to have been in April 2000... back in the first age... ;)

[Mouth of Sauron]

I like the theory that he is Aule best. But at one time I did think he could be Iluvatar. My only problem with that theory is, who was Goldberry? If Bombadil was Aule, then Goldberry makes sense as Yavana, but if he's Iluvatar...?

Still, when Frodo asks who he is, her reply does sound more befitting of Iluvatar than a mere Maia.

[Fat middle]

i think that ever and ever this topic comes back i'm of a different opinion about it :rolleyes:

now i think that Tombo is a character from other world. Tolkien speaks of him in a letter (long before he began to write LOTR) as "the spirit of the countryside of Oxford and Berkshire". At least that was what Tombo represented in "The Adventures..."

When he began to write LOTR, JRRT hasn't yet a clear idea of what the book was about. He needed some adventures... so he introduced Tom.

But how to make consistent a character of a so different origin with the rest of the book? He could have write and rewrite pages to create a genesis and a history of the character and his role in the history of ME, but he simply chose an easier (and more effective) way: he created an aura of mystery surrounding Tom so we couldn't know who he really was but feeling that the wise (as Gandalf, Elrond & co.) did know it.

I think that this solution save a lot of work for the Proffersor and bring us to this point of discussing once and again this topic without casting any shadow of imperfection over the book. Simply genius :)

[Shanamir Duntak]

I think Tom has to be an exceptionnal beeing created by Illuvatar. Think of it as a first draft. The thing you do once, think " Hum... that's not bad, I'll keep this one but do these changes for the next..."

Think of a world where Tom would be an elf and where elves would all be little Toms... :)

[Ñólendil]

Definitely not God, bmilder. Tolkien denied that (a 1952 letter). There's a discussion on this I took part in on the Middle-earth Vault (I'm Ranadwelt). Er, keep in mind some of the posters are, well, of an older crowd: This is going to get messy (http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=14716252&replies=26)

[Fat middle]

:D and nobody replied... great work, Inoldonil!

[Ñólendil]

That's always my goal of course: to be so boring and make a post so pointless the thread (or topic) dies. My favourite thing.;)

[Curandir]

I've always thought of Tom as a "shepard of shepards". He is not really an Ent in the classical sence, but his dominion is definately nature. He doesn't intentionally become involved in the lives of, Hobbits, Men, Elves, or even Dwarves. What he does though is take care of the environment, knows every tree, bush and even some ragtag shrubbery. His magic is stronger then the ring and even Sauron because the magic he uses is older, it is part of "the Song". One thing I've noticed is the power of music, in particular spoken music or singing. I've noticed that dark magic is always a perversion, or a copy, of the oridgeonal part of the song. Remember in Sil when Melkor went bad and the disharmonies of the Song? Or what Orcs were suppost to be? They may prove powerful for a time, but the perfection of the Song and thouse who operate in that perfection always come out on top. Tom I would say is the "head custodian" of Arda, a remnant of Iluvatars' oridgeonal note in the Song.

Or I maybe just full of ****.

[Curandir]

Hey, I didn't know the C-word would get censored!

[ringbearer]

Thats it! Tom and Goldberry are Father and Mother Nature!

[Ben]

Congratulations, you've inspired the latest Tolkien Trail Poll (http://www.tolkientrail.com/poll.html) ;).

[ringbearer]

I don't think he could have been a Maia. Bilbo was invisible to Gandalf, and Gandalf is a Maia. Frodo was visible to Tom...so through logic that one can be ruled out. Wow, I inspired my 1st poll! Let us know the results! I've cast my vote for Iluvatar!

[Curandir]

I thought you were with me on this one Ringbearer;)

[ringbearer]

Father and Mother Nature were not listed on the poll! I do not pick things like "something else alltogether". I, frankly, don't know...just like talking about it! :)

[Curandir]

Tom Bombadil is one of my favorite caracters. I wanted to buy the Adventures of Tom Bombadil but after my order came into Barnes and Noble, I was flat broke! Can anyone recommend that book, or give a synopsis of what its about?

[Ben]

I read it some years ago. It's basically just a collection of poetry, and is on the silly side. Not a "must-have."

[adanedhel]

Whatever he is....I would say he is no Elf, Dwarf or even Ent. Gandalf said that Treebeard was the "eldest of all living creatures". So if Tom was "First" it would seem to indicate that he is more than a "living creature", a spirit like the Valar, Maiar or something similar.

If I HAD to pick..I would say Vala... he and Goldberry remind me of lesser forms of Yavanna and Ulmo (genders reversed of course).

As for him being Iluvatar.......to paraphrase Dennis Miller...I just know God wouldn't dress like that! HeHe

[Selwythe]

Bombadil really reminds me of Tulkas or Lorien, and Goldberry his spouse (what was her name again?). Don't know why. I know it's not consistent since Bombadil didn't have any great powers like Tulkas' power and speed and the Valar sit in their land watching the world like a TV show.

Nah, I think Tolkien wanted to write something about him but got sick of it. Always happens to me when I write.

[Ñólendil]

I made a post just now, but I deleted it as I think (forgive me if this sounds terribly snobbish) it would hurt the poll.

Tulkas' spouse was Nessa, and Irmo's (or Lorien's) was Este.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by adanedhel
Whatever he is....I would say he is no Elf, Dwarf or even Ent. Gandalf said that Treebeard was the "eldest of all living creatures". So if Tom was "First" it would seem to indicate that he is more than a "living creature", a spirit like the Valar, Maiar or something similar.

Okey, forget what i said in the other posts. This reasoning has made me think other way. But no, adanedhel, i can't agree with you: if Tom was "First" it would seem to indicate that he is LESS "than a "living creature".

Tom is dead. That's why he can command the wight, that's why the Ring has no effect on him...

But not all the dead are FIRST (though most of them are prior to the living creature). Only one can be the FIRST, and that is Finwe, who has returned to ME from the Halls of Mandos.

But why don't he help Frodo: he had reasons to hate Melkor and his followers. Because he wants to await his hour, he wants to await till Melkor come gain to defeat him personally. All is in the second prophecy of Mandos. Some versions said that Finwe would defeat Melkor in the last battle, the Dagorlad.

okey, I don't really believe it :p But i wanted so see if something new could be said about this topic (and also resolve the question of Turin/Finwe problem in the Dagorlad ;))

[webwizard333]

I read an interesting theory once that Bombadil was Tolkien in Middle Earth (that would explain the whole first thing).

[Ñólendil]

I agree that Tom cannot be a living thing (Tom eldest in Time and witnessed first acorn + Treebeard oldest living thing = Tom is not a living thing), but I cannot agree that he is dead (i.e., a wraith). 'Spirit' I think would be nearer.

Finwë was not the first Elf to die, he was the first Elf to be slain in Aman. The first to die in Aman was MÃ*riel (his first wife) and the first Elf to die is not recorded. What is this about 'Turin/Finwe in the Dagorlad'? Have I missed something? I know about the legend of Turin in the Last Battle (which was abandoned), but I haven't heard about Finwë -- and Dagorlad='Battleplain', it can be found on the LOTR map NW of Mordor. :confused:

[adanedhel]

A major problem with Tom being a wraith (dead) is that I don't see how you can die without being alive in the first place.

Also being a wraith would not explain why the One Ring had no effect on him....the less powerful nine rings of mortal men seem to have quite an effect on the Nazgul and they are wraiths....

[Fat middle]

Inoldonil : sorry, i meant the Dagorath (the final battle, as you guessed), but i was wrong about the two versions: in one appeared Turin, in the other Fionwe (not Finwe). I'm not sure, but i think that this Fionwe was "the son of Manwe" wich later become Eonwe, the herald of Manwe. Anyway, this project seems to be abandoned by JRRT as you said.

[Comic Book Guy]

I personally believe he's a spirit or a Maia, then again he could be the Witch-King :p

[Agburanar]

Hi, I'm new here and haven't researched any subjects thoroughly but I love Tolkien, please teach me! On the subject of Bombadil the theory that he is a visitor in Middle Earth is appealing, Tolkien says that to make a fantasy world convincing there has to be links with this world. Bombadil seems to be a mysterious character who can find you but you can't find him. He knows everything but clearly is not a God. Therefore it seems that he may be a Father Christmas figure! Does anyone know why he was left out of the radio series? He may have been thought unimportant but I think he is a colourful and significant figure. Thats enough waffle from an unimportant, new person. Bye!:D

[Shanamir Duntak]

Welcome to the board Agburanar
And no one is unimportant here! [edit]Well, maybe Tater and Anduin... :D :D :p

Make yourslef at home. :)

[ringbearer]

One clue is Tom's magic. It revolves around singing. He said of Old Man Willow..."I know his song". I believe Iluvitar's magic had something to do with singing, as well.

[Ñólendil]

Fat Middle: I don't think 'Dagorath' is the word you're looking for either. I'm not sure what the Elvish name for the Last Battle is. Certainly Dagor=Battle.

My, my, the new members are pouring in, aren't they? This place is growing fast!

[adanedhel]

Last battle = Dagor Dagorath

[Ñólendil]

Is it really? Alright, guess I was wrong.

[Agburanar]

You mentioned singing, could this be a link with Treebeard's names? If so perhaps Tom Bombadil is a different race entirely, or an ent who has not "grown like his sheep"? If so does he know where the entwives went? Puzzling....

Another thought, where did Beren and Luthien vanish off to? The Silmarillion doesn't say after the defeat of the dwarves. Where did they go?

[Finmandos12]

Beren and Luthien went where all other humans go, which we don't know for sure. Also, was the idea of Dagor Dagorath kept? I know the Turin killing Melkor wasn't.

[Ñólendil]

One Lord of the Rings reader thought there was some connexion between Tom and the Entwives too, but Tolkien denied it. Definitely not an Ent.

Beren and Lúthien lived in Ossiriand, as far as anyone knew until their deaths.

As for the Last Battle, I don't know. In late writings as you know, 'Last Battle' was used as a name for the Last Battle of the Wars of Beleriand, but I don't know if that means the old idea was completely abandoned. I think not, because you can still read about Finrod's belief concerning the breaking of the World and Arda Unmarred that will be in the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth.

[Finmandos12]

I meant when B & L died.

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Hi guys, am new here but i've been reading tolkien books for years, and i almost read every book. And concerning Bombadil, i think he's one of the Ainur who didn't land in the begining of history, for as was said in the sil.. not all of the ainur landed in earth, but some followed them after, maybe Bombadil was one of the Ainur, and Gandalf said that he's the oldest in middle earth!!!

[Ñólendil]

Welcome!

The problem with that theory is that Tom said he was in the world before the Dark Lord came from Outside, and Tolkien said he was Eldest in Time, which is the life of Eä and began when Eä was first set amid the innumerable stars, before the Valar set foot there.

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

But if he wasn't of the Ainur, then what is he? And then how was he the eldest of the living things and also came before Melkor?
Maybe he's just tolkien and this is his way to insert himself in the story!!!!!!and he knows about everything that goes on the earth!! and he had power on the Barrow-Wight!

[Ñólendil]

I think you strike rather near the point. What is he? indeed. I don't think anyone will ever know. JRR Tolkien knew, but if he ever wrote it down it hasn't been published, in a way I'm glad it hasn't.

But Bombadil was not aware of everything that took place. He made no secret of the fact that he owed his recent knowledge to Farmer Maggot. I imagine that if you conceive of JRR Tolkien as knowing all about Arda or Eä, he wouldn't need to ask Maggot about doings in the Shire.

I personally think Tolkien and his wife are more clearly seen in Beren and Lúthien.

As equally puzzling as the question about Tom is 'what is Goldberry?' I don't think the two questions are necessarily bound together.

[Comic Book Guy]

Isn't she something like "Daughter of the River"? Something to do with Yavanna?

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Welcome!

The problem with that theory is that Tom said he was in the world before the Dark Lord came from Outside, and Tolkien said he was Eldest in Time, which is the life of E?and began when E?was first set amid the innumerable stars, before the Valar set foot there.

Please, what is E?

[ringbearer]

originally posted by Inolonil..."JRR Tolkien knew, but if he ever wrote it down it hasn't been published, in a way I'm glad it hasn't."

Just a wonderfull mystery! Perhaps on purpose! We do not even begin to even know stuff about our own Earth!

[Ñólendil]

I don't know what happened to your quote, but the original text has 'Eä' and then a space before 'and' and 'was' where they occur: ' ... which is the life of Eä and began when Eä was first set amid the innumerable stars, ... ' Eä being the vast World That Is, that Is because of the Ainulindalë, Arda was set within it.

Absolutely, regarding Bombadil! And it was on purpose. In 1954 JRR Tolkien wrote: There is of course a clash between 'literary' technique, and the fascination of elaborating in detail an imaginary mythical Age (mythical, not allegorical: my mind does not work allegorically). As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much, and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the Council of Elrond. And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

[ringbearer]

The Truth about Tom Bombadil
From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting dated 3 May 1996.
At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here. :)

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

[stormcrow]

"Within the Tolkien household Tom Bombadil was originally a Dutch doll belonging to one of Tolkien's children (Carpenter, Tolkien, p. 162; Grotta-Rurska, Tolkien, p. 101). Tolkien later wrote a poem about him called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," published in Oxford Magazine in 1934, long before the writing of the Lord of the Rings began. "...


This is from the following essay which does a good and fair job, I believe, of examining the Bombadil question from a wide vantage:

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

Another good essay is to be found at:

http://tolkien.cro.net/else/tombom.html

"Tolkien introduced Tom into The Lord of the Rings at a very early stage, when he still thought of it as a sequel to the The Hobbit, as opposed to the The Silmarillion (the tone was changed during the first chapters of The Lord of the Rings). Tom fit the original (slightly childish) tone of the early chapters (which resembled that of the The Hobbit), but as the story progressed it became higher in tone and darker in nature. Tolkien later claimed that he left Tom in he decided that however portrayed Tom provided a necessary ingredient (see last paragraph). Some very cogent reasons are produced in a couple of wonderful letters.
(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 144 & 153)..."

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

What ringbearer said was quite intresting though there are some defects and mistakes... My friend you said that the Witch King is of a high numenorean blood, but not of the good blood for they were called the drak numenoreans, and i mean the nine of them! for they were of the King's men as JRRT said in LOTR Appendecies!! and these were insnared by Sauron in the first place and they used to rule the Harad!!! so he can't have felt betrayed by sauron for he was as a vassal to him in the first place!! And he can't have helped Frodo in the Barrow Downs then he comes to kill him at weathertop!!! and another intresting thing that Gandalf couldn't go to talk to him if he knows he's dead!! and if he's the Witch King then who's Goldberry????

[Ñólendil]

Shelob, obviously.

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Lord_Ov_The_Thunder
What ringbearer said was quite intresting though there are some defects and mistakes... My friend you said that the Witch King is of a high numenorean blood, but not of the good blood for they were called the drak numenoreans, and i mean the nine of them! for they were of the King's men as JRRT said in LOTR Appendecies!! and these were insnared by Sauron in the first place and they used to rule the Harad!!! so he can't have felt betrayed by sauron for he was as a vassal to him in the first place!! And he can't have helped Frodo in the Barrow Downs then he comes to kill him at weathertop!!! and another intresting thing that Gandalf couldn't go to talk to him if he knows he's dead!! and if he's the Witch King then who's Goldberry????

This is not my theory...it was pasted from another site. I put it here, because it is so "off the wall".

[Taramoor]

I kinda feel I have to ask this:

What's the exact dialogue of Tom after Frodo puts on the ring. I could've sworn he said something along the lines of "my friend, where have you gone?" I thought it went:

Tom puts on the ring.
Nothing happens.
Frodo puts on the ring,
Tom can't see him.

Maybe I just haven't re-read them recently enough. But I was almost sure that's what happened.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Taramoor! Here's you dialogue:

Merry turned towards him to say something and gave a start, and checked an exclamation. Frodo was delighted (in a way): it was his own ring all right, for Merry was staring blankly at his chair, and obviously could not see him. He got up and crept quietly away from the fireside towards the outer door.

'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. 'Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keey your feet from wandering.'

Frodo laughed. (trying to feel pleased), and taking off the Ring he came and sat down again.

[Comic Book Guy]

Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet.
That seems to suggest that seeing invisable people is natural to him.

[Ñólendil]

Of course it does! He was himself a spirit, he must have been a part of the Unseen Realm.

[ArwenEvenstar]

i remember a post when this forum was in the 'first age'(i may appear a newbie but i used to know this forum pretty well) i recall somebody saying JRRT didn't say much about him because he wanted an air of mystery, maybe tolkien could tell the future in a way and saw ppl talking about stuff like this

[Gandalf]

Tom (Iarwain Ban-adar, Orald, Forn) is indeed a Maia.
"As he was the first he will be last" I believe were Gandalf's words in the Council. He was the first of the Maia.
That's LOTR's version ...

my version however is a bit different.
I believe that Tom IS Middle Earth. As the Vala and the Maia are Eru's thoughts, Tom is middle earth. He does not control it, Eru does not control the Maia nor Vala, but it cannot control him either. He is his own master, as Gandalf said. He will only perish when Middle Earth perishes.

- Bram

[Agburanar]

good thought. Did he know, then, how the war of the ring was going to end? Otherwise he may have been a little bothered that Middle Earth might indeed end.

[ringbearer]

I don't think he would care!

[Oliver Thornton]

I must say he truthfully was an amzing character.
I suspect he had conquered an evil greater than the rings and Sarumon before he met the hobbits.

[Agburanar]

Back here again are we? Actually I was going to reopen it anyway because I found a quote from Gandalf in 'The White Rider'. Gandalf says that Treebeard is the oldest living thing in middle earth. If this is true then Bombadil must be younger, so he can't be Illuvatar or any of the Maia or Valar.

[Lightice]

No, Treebeard is oldest LIVING thing. Bombadil's a spirit on my opinion. Although I think that's a glitch from Tolkien. He did also first say, that Sauron doesn't allow writing his true name or saying it, but his servant is still called Mouth of Sauron.
I believe, that Bombadil's actually spirit of world itself. Varda. That has little of every creature in him. That's why no living ever harms him and such small thing as the Ring has no effect on him. Also, at Council of Elrond it was said, that Bombadil can't resist Sauron, if Earth itself isn't that strong, and Sauron can torture even mountains themselves.
To that I place this belief.

[Hirwinion]

The best guess is that Tom Bombadil is a maiar. I have read papers that state he be Aule or even that he could Eru. Tolkien left his nature in an ambiguous state because he wanted to. Some things were better left for the reader to puzzle over. Recall there are lots of spirits that were summoned to ME not only Vala, Maia but the ents were summoned by Yavanna. Carahardras the Mtn on FotR is ascribed an almost sentinent quality in the attack on the fellowship. Bombadil could be a primeaval spirit not of ASman but of ME placed there by Eru without the knowledge, directly,anyway, of the Powers. The bottlom line is Tom can be whatewver you want him to be. If Maia, spirit, Vala etc..
In actuality he was a doll the Tolkiens purchased in Holland.Old Tom Bombadil is a merry old fellow: bight blue his jacket is and his boots are yellow.

[Gandalf]

Hehe, oldest living thing ...

Anyhoo, at a certain point it even occured to me that Bombadil was Middle Earth itself. It doesn't really make sense, but I think it's an interesting thing to consider. Why do the trees and all other living things like him that much? Why didn't he get wet from running through the rain? I don't think it's that easy to control not only the train, but also to have some control over the entire woods (he doesn't control it technically speaking, but he *is* it) ...

But Tom isn't the most interesting character ... I find Goldberry to be more interesting ... very very little is known about her! I mean who is *she*?

[Ñólendil]

There's another ancient thread about Tom lying around in which MM and I get into it about him. It was pretty much proved there that Tom can't be a Maia. He first existed long after Arda was created.

Tom as the earth itself: I find some problems with this theory (other than the info. posted in the other thread referred to above). Not all the trees -- nor do all other living things -- like Tom. Think of Old Man Willow, or Saruman. Saruman couldn't have liked Tom, not if he met him. Not the fallen Saruman. As for the rain, I don't think that shows any earthy trait. The earth gets wet.

As you say, he _doesn't_ control the woods, he doesn't even own them and I can't agree that he can control the rain. He even told the hobbits 'I'm no weather-master'. He can ward off the rain, obviously, but that also is not something the earth or the woods themselves can do.

[Agburanar]

It seems that Tom is a kind of anti earth.

[Bombadil's PR Guy]

Who Is Tom Bombadil? (http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html)
Someone pasted this lengthy, but engaging essay by Gene Hargrove into a thread here previously. Hargrove examines many of the same theories that we've been discussing here, casting his lot most persuasively with the "Tom is Maiar" crowd.
As expressed above, Bombadil's unexplained nature, leaving us guessing really spices up the book. As with life, if we could understand and know everything in LOTR, it would never continue to be so damn interesting. As radical as the Bombadil as Witch King sounds, the simple fact that someone can launch interesting arguments along these lines attests to the success of this "anomilous" character.

[brownjenkins]

I think the most interesting aspect of TB is not who he was, but why he was not effected by the ring... Most people seem to think it is because he was in some way all-powerful, or at least very powerful... I don't really buy this. I think the real reason the ring had no power over him, is because he had no need for it. Everyone from Frodo to Gandalf had something more they wanted to achieve... aspirations for the ring to work it's evil upon. TB was 100% satisfied with his life as is, so to him, the ring was no more than a band of gold.

[Quickbeam]

thois is replying to the theory that tb could be the witch king. Well maybe the reason he helped frodo, and then tried to hurt him, is where he was. Remember how he wouldn't go any farther than his "boindaries". Maybe once he stepped out, he would be the witch king, and once in the boundaries, he is tom. If this is not true, Then why will he only stay within that area??????

[Agburanar]

He talks to Farmer Maggot though sometimes. Does he leave the forest or does Maggot go to him?

[ArwenEvenstar]

it's been awile since i read it but to me it was basically Tom runing around the country side visting 'old man willow' and Farmer Maggot and other people/hobbits/trees and i remember him boating down the winthywindle (spelling)

[FrodoFriend]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
I think the most interesting aspect of TB is not who he was, but why he was not effected by the ring... Most people seem to think it is because he was in some way all-powerful, or at least very powerful... I don't really buy this. I think the real reason the ring had no power over him, is because he had no need for it. Everyone from Frodo to Gandalf had something more they wanted to achieve... aspirations for the ring to work it's evil upon. TB was 100% satisfied with his life as is, so to him, the ring was no more than a band of gold.



I agree absolutely. the Ring only has power over those who desire power in some shape or form. this why hobbits are much less affected by it than the other peoples of middle-earth. where elves want knowledge & beauty, men want glory, dwarves want craftsmanship or whatever, hobbits only want their six meals a day and a quiet life. tom bombadil, meanwhile, is so much a part of nature that he has no need of modern magical or mechanical things. what could the Ring possibly give him? he has no ambition; basically, he wants nothing.

here's an interesting question: how would the Ring affect an Ent? :confused:

[KGamgee]

Thats a really good question. Umm....I guess they want Orcs out of Middle Earth, they really didn't like them...what else....OOOO!!!! They do want something! THE ENTWIVES! So, it wouldn't effect them much, but Ents do want some things, so I guess in a small way it would affect them.

[Comic Book Guy]

Thats a really good question. Umm....I guess they want Orcs out of Middle Earth, they really didn't like them...what else....OOOO!!!! They do want something! THE ENTWIVES! So, it wouldn't effect them much, but Ents do want some things, so I guess in a small way it would affect them.

You are forgetting that nobody can actually use the ring to get what they want, it uses them. The ents would be corrupted to do what the ring wants just like anything else.

[crow]

Tom is stated as being the master (whatever that means) of an area of land between the Shire and Bree. I am cautious about defining him, but he seems to be a sort of spirit, physical manifestation, what-have-you, of the Old Forest, just as Goldberry is the spirit of the river, or the pool or somesuch. A naiad, as I believe the Ancient Greeks would have put it. Just as the Old Forest is one of the last remnants of a vast wood that once spanned a huge portion of Middle Earth, so Tom is the diminished spirit and master of that wood. He is outside of good and evil as it is found in Middle Earth. He aided the Frodo and Co. because they were harmless. He would not cooperate with Sauron because the Dark Lord would surely destroy the Old Forest. But I say this only as tentative speculation.

[Oliver Thornton]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
I just found out something I think all of us have missed!!!
Tom Bomadil is Beorn!!!!!!
His wife is goldberry or whatever berry she is and she controls rain beorn controls most animals.

[FrodoFriend]

huh???
goldberry controls rain? beorn controls animals?
he can turn into a bear and talk to animals but i don't think that's the same as controlling them.
besides, how would that prove that he's bombadil?
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Oliver Thornton]

Tom probably doesn't control animals but I know Goldberry controls enough rain to do her cleaning outside.
Tom is called by many other names.

[Elfhelm]

Just bringing this to the top for "old scholar".

Tom was a character in a children's poem. After the success of the Hobbit, JRRT was asked for another book. He originally suggested a reworking of Tom Bombadil. The idea must have stayed with him while he developed the LotR.

The children's poem was inspired by a doll brought back from the Netherlands by an aunt and rescued for the youngest boy after the older boy (now a priest) attempted to flush it down a toilet (?). The doll had a blue coat and yellow boots. It's really a cool topic.

[Eärloth]

Goldberry described Bombadil with the words 'he is'; Bombadil described himself by saying that he had been since there had been hills and trees and streams...I can't really remember. So I'd say he was a subject born *of* the woods and the Earth, Goldberry the 'River-daughter'. Not quite Maiar, because the Ring would have effected him then. Not near human, he just...was.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Just bringing this to the top for "old scholar".

Tom was a character in a children's poem. After the success of the Hobbit, JRRT was asked for another book. He originally suggested a reworking of Tom Bombadil. The idea must have stayed with him while he developed the LotR.

The children's poem was inspired by a doll brought back from the Netherlands by an aunt and rescued for the youngest boy after the older boy (now a priest) attempted to flush it down a toilet (?). The doll had a blue coat and yellow boots. It's really a cool topic.

yes!!! the Doll Theory rules!! *laugh*

[brownjenkins]

I think we need to talk about Tom Bombadil more often. :D

[carlrodd]

I think we need to talk about Tom Bombadil more often. :D

he is a great character. i used to reread the passage in the council of elrond about him over and over. middle earth role playing calls him a maia, and reinforces the idea that he was a shepherd of the woods that basically covered NW middle earth...the only remnants of which are fangorn and the old forest. he's so tied to the land though, that he would not leave the old forest.

[carlrodd]

double post

[Peter_20]

Tolkien himself has stated that Tom Bombadil is NOT Eru Ilúvatar, so that theory fails.

Tom Bombadil doesn't fit into the character of any race in Arda, and this makes him an extremely exciting character.

[Olmer]

Not quite Maiar, because the Ring would have effected him then.
Where does it say that the Ring affects the maia? Sauron was living with the Ring happily ever after. :)
Even Gandalf, not the highest on maiar's hierarchy, at least two times was handling the Ring without any ill effect.

[Landroval]

Where does it say that the Ring affects the maia? Sauron was living with the Ring happily ever after. :)
Even Gandalf, not the highest on maiar's hierarchy, at least two times was handling the Ring without any ill effect.
There is no direct refference, but this can be inferred
With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.
Few others, possibly no others of [Frodo's] time, would have got so far.
Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.
Interesting about the last quote: no one actually had the guts to destroy the ring by free will; Tolkien comments on the letters that no human could have achieve the actual destruction of the ring - throwing it in the fires of Mount Doom. It seems Sauron was right. Judging from the temptation on Gandalf, and the fact that the ring gives power according to his possessor's stature, I believe it is safe to say that even uncloathed maiar are affected. These lot has been susceptible to power from the beginning anyway :cool:

[me9996]

It seems to me that Bombadil is not effected by the ring simply becuase the ring doesn't apply to him.

It has no hold over it, but he cannot use it (Any use beond decoration at least)

I beleave it is once said the Bambadil is not of Middle Earth...

[brownjenkins]

I stand by what I said in this thread many years ago...

Everyone from Frodo to Gandalf had something more they wanted to achieve... aspirations for the ring to work it's evil upon. TB was 100% satisfied with his life as is, so to him, the ring was no more than a band of gold.

Tom had no desires for the ring to work upon.

[Landroval]

Tom had no desires for the ring to work upon.
Well, that is not entirely correct :)
...the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture .

[brownjenkins]

Actually, that letter is what I based my statement upon, but I would bold a different part...

Originally Posted by Letter #153
...the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture.

When I say no "desires", I am speaking of the fact that he has no grand schemes he feels that he must do. He is more than happy being a botanist and doesn't desire to be a farmer. Thus, there is nothing for the ring to work upon, since observation requires nothing more than ones senses and ones mind.

[Landroval]

The desire in and of itself for knowledge is no less a desire than any other one. But I won't quibble on this anymore.

[The Gaffer]

Heh. I like your theory BJ. Tom is happy with this lot, and this makes him invulnerable.

[nokom]

Just an idea. He could be Eru? Since the ring doesn't effect him and he has always been .

[Landroval]

Just an idea. He could be Eru? Since the ring doesn't effect him and he has always been .
Tolkien dismissed such an idea:
{Peter Hastings cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God.}
...
As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. (Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator).

[Butterbeer]

Did he though?

At what point?

Seems to me he did in a revisionist way.

I still think a form of that is implied , but in partial degree. Hence the mystery... and deliberate at that.

Read between the lines and a partial middle earth form or incarnation ,as it were, seems to me the best post-revisionist take...

best, BB

[Lotesse]

When I say no "desires", I am speaking of the fact that he has no grand schemes he feels that he must do. He is more than happy being a botanist and doesn't desire to be a farmer. Thus, there is nothing for the ring to work upon, since observation requires nothing more than ones senses and ones mind.

I love this theory, Brownjenkins, it feels right. But then, Landroval has a good point, too, that the desire for knowledge is in and of itself a desire that can be worked upon. BUT - how could a desire for knowledge be a type of desire that the Ring could use? It isn't a desire for a concrete or tangible thing, just - knowledge. Hmm. I'm going to ponder this some more for a while.

By the way, I've been noticing what's happening around Entmoot these last couple weeks, and I'm absolutely loving it - suddenly, threads and talks around here about Tolkien-elated issues are outnumbering the gen mes religion/politics mind-numbing depressing totally-nothing-to-do-with-Tolkien threads. WHEW!!!!! It's about friggin' time. And the new & revived threads I've been seeing are so, so interesting, too. God it's great, bloody fantastic.

[Butterbeer]

God it's great, bloody fantastic.... no need to bring GOD into it, eh? :D

..amen to that - or not? ;)

[Lotesse]

I know, huh! :D :D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I love this theory, Brownjenkins, it feels right. But then, Landroval has a good point, too, that the desire for knowledge is in and of itself a desire that can be worked upon. BUT - how could a desire for knowledge be a type of desire that the Ring could use? It isn't a desire for a concrete or tangible thing, just - knowledge. Hmm. I'm going to ponder this some more for a while.

It seems to me that the Ring could take a desire a person had for knowledge and inflame that desire to the point that it became an obsession, that could drive one to strive to gain knowledge by any means. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I could definitely see that happening.

[Landroval]

Did he though?

At what point?

Seems to me he did in a revisionist way.

I still think a form of that is implied , but in partial degree. Hence the mystery... and deliberate at that.

Read between the lines and a partial middle earth form or incarnation ,as it were, seems to me the best post-revisionist take...

best, BB
The letter is dated in 1953, so there is no revisionism here. It is consistent with other refferences by Tolkien to him in the Letters. Eru himself is consistently described as not inhabiting any part of Ea (letter #211) and will not enter Ea save at the end of it (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth). In letter #144 Tolkien reffered to Bombadil as an intentional enigma; the only more specific description of him, which is out-of-story, is the "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside", letter #19.

[Olmer]

"spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside", letter #19.
Which brought us to the square one. :)
Who are the spirits, but Ainur that had descended after the creation of Arda, taking shapes according to the nature they loved?
Then it's understandable, why Goldberry said that "he is". Because Tom is maia, who fell in love with Arda and choose to live there instead in the Timeless Halls. Just like Melian has decided to stay and look over of a certain area - Doriath.
He is not man, elf, or some other creature, because he could take a shape of any. He is simply "IS". :)

[Landroval]

Who are the spirits, but Ainur that had descended after the creation of Arda, taking shapes according to the nature they loved?
So, still attempting to solve intended enigmas?:)

[Olmer]

So, still attempting to solve intended enigmas?:)
No. I'm just trying to come to a reasonable agreement with myself on this subject. :)

[nokom]

Tolkien dismissed such an idea:

By that I think he meant more that Bombadil was not the real God, but not really that he could not be Eru

[nokom]

However... Eru in a way was meant to be the real god, in a fictional sense. Tolkien meant for it to be him, but in fiction if you understand me.

[Landroval]

By that I think he meant more that Bombadil was not the real God, but not really that he could not be Eru
Bombadil could not have been the real God, as all the characters were fictional. Tolkien was evidently referring to him not being Eru.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

By that I think he meant more that Bombadil was not the real God, but not really that he could not be Eru

They are one and the same.

[Butterbeer]

The letter is dated in 1953, so there is no revisionism here. It is consistent with other refferences by Tolkien to him in the Letters. Eru himself is consistently described as not inhabiting any part of Ea (letter #211) and will not enter Ea save at the end of it (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth). In letter #144 Tolkien reffered to Bombadil as an intentional enigma; the only more specific description of him, which is out-of-story, is the "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside", letter #19.


..and when was it first written? ... between when and when technically, and when was it in mind before that?

But, Good Landroval, (whom i respect as a well read and intelligent mooter)

for me, it is not so much a historical proofing of X, Y or Z - but a genuine open debate about what was meant at the time of writing , ... that which still remains in the original text, which might have meant or been played with subsequently either ad hoc or to attempt to reconcile later works ...

to me, that is much the more interesting question.

I, personally am much more interested, given the numerous and really quite powerful ambiguities for Tom, in given what was the original concept, allbeit a rough sketch later somewhat obscurely defined, to fit into his creationist history and world - a scope that both is totally admirable, but not without ambiguity ...

I value your own opinion and thoughts rather than mere letters or responses - and i mean that in a good and respectful way.

Best, BB

[Landroval]

If I were to venture in a speculation, I would say Tom appeared in Arda after it was created, being an exception to both the Children of Eru and the Ainur. A sort of a special observer/envoy.

To return to the letter #144:He is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function... both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive.
Interesting that Tom is compared to Rivendell; there dwells the greates loremaster of Middle Earth at the time. Another interesting parallel is that both Tom and Elrond are healers in their own way (Tom at least of land). The elves are also said to have the subcreative faculties in the highest degree among all mortals, and the peculiarity of subcreation/Art is its lack of possessiveness, which also seems to define Tom as well. While both the Elves and Tom enjoy lore, the Elves seem to be the closest to perfection in creating, and Tom seems to be closest to perfection in attitude (a chapter where the elves lack, since they can be seduced to a kind of minor Melkorism, to be their own masters in Arda - cf. the Athrabeth). Just as Men/Elves represent the two facets of Mortality (letter #181), Elves/Tom may represent the two facets of the perfect archetype.

[Rían]

interesting thought, Landroval! (creating/attitude)

[Jon S.]

Sometimes an enigma is simply that. I don't believe Tolkien knew for sure about Bombadil, either!

[Tom_Bombadil]

In light of my name on here I feel I have to get into this!

I think Tolkien left Bombadil deliberately vague, so this very thing would happen...people talking about it years later. He is enigmatic to say the least. I certainly don't think he's a manifestation of Eru. From what I've read I can't see that as Illuvatar's style, he didn't interfere, unless in dire circumstances...like when Manwe called upon him; when Ar pharazon and his men had just stepped onto the shores of Valinor. Then boy did he step in!!

My opinion is is that Bombadil is a most ancient kind of nature spirit, possibly maia, but I don't think so. Maybe he's just a literary device used by Tolkien to mark the last chapter before the real adventure and danger begins. A kind of retreat for the reader. If the later story becomes too dark; Can cast your mind back to a place where a jolly, eccentric being is total master, unconquerable, unaffected even by the rings power and glean solace from that. I don't know I'm just rambling. Bombadil is certainly a most fascinating creature.

I agree with what others said earlier....The ring wouldn't work on Bombadil because "he's his own master", his will unconquerable, and he doesn't desire power, he's content within his own little realm....the only reason the ring would work on Gandalf is because he desires power....power to defeat Sauron, and it would use that desire to corrupt even he.

To sum up...I think there's a definite nature connection with Bombadil and he's unique in that respect...a personification of nature itself possibly. Tolkien was a well known nature lover...in fact "the scouring of the shire" chapter in LOTR was a reflection of reality, what he saw as the brutal industrialization of England...destroying wildlife and countryside in the name of production.

Whatever the case....Bombadil, to me, is one of the most interesting characters in all of Tolkien's works and the fact this post exists is a testament to that.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Interesting topic and fine debate. I think I have solved the mystery, at least for those who want it to be solved: Tom is the first song of the Ainur, or rather a remnant of it. That´s because: He had no power to oppose Sauron, but the Ring had no power over him. And the second song of Iluvatar was created to resist the cacophony of Melkor. And the fight against the darkness has been like that song; first it was weak and not even loud, but it didn´t fail and fade, and grew stronger and even and kept on despite the evil. And it merged with the First one, and thus, even with Treebeard, he (Tom) can be said to have been there before him. Other questions? :D :cool: :) :p

[bropous]

Not bad, N.E.L.

However, I took Bombadil to be unaffected by The Ring because Sauron came to dark power far after Bombadil was already walking the world, and that Bombadil, as a creature of Middle-Earth before the first Valinorean boot touched Middle-Earth, did not feel the effects of Suaron's evil.

However, mayhaps a clue can be found in my signature line:

"...[T]he primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies...".

When you look at the true symbolism of The Ring itself, lust for power, you realize that Bombadil had no lust for any power of any sort, and therefore was untouched by its call to cause its owner to drive for great and unyielding power over others, by force or by mechanism. This is why The Ring would have been sp dang dangerous in the hands of Olorin...even with his good intentions, The Ring would have driven him to gain power through mechanations or force, even after defeating Sauron. Olorin may have become as powerful as old Morgoth hissef.

[Jon S.]

Bombadil may not have desired power and control over others but it is patently in contradiction to what Tolkien actually wrote in the LOTR to say it was meaningless to him. Tom very definitely exercised power and control over Old Man Willow to free the hobbits and it was quite meaningful to him to do so.

[Ingwe]

I've always enjoyed the debate concerning Tom Bombadil. When I saw this as the recent post on this forum, I knew I had to post.


At first, upon reading about Tom Bombadil, I wanted to know his nature. I asked myself, is this guy a man, an Elf, a Maia, a Valar, or God himself. And of course I eventually was caught in the literary meaning of Bombadil.


I don't see very many authors out there who actually use an element like Tom Bombadil: something that is a complete mystery to even the author. That's just absolutely wonderful to see something in a story that even the author is not aware of its nature.

Why the Ring has no power on him is also a mystery, but the explanations I see here are pretty good. Perhaps if Tom wanted to, the Ring could have an affect on him. Tom wasn't affected though by items created by nature for he may have been the (idea of) nature itself.

I read before though that since Tom is a figure of nature, that if Sauron (or Morgoth) would have taken the world for themselves that even Tom would fade with it - that is if all nature was bound by one (Sauron or Morgoth).

Tom Bombadil is a mystery and Tom himself represents the mystery of the future. If Sauron or Morgoth had taken the Earth for themselves, the mystery of the future would be broken, for the future would be the same as the present: no resistance to evil would remain and Morgoth or Sauron's rule of the Earth would be complete. The future would be bound to Morgoth's or Sauron's control and absolute dominion over it. The mystery, thus broken, would break the nature of...nature itself. The nature is to be open-ended, to have many on Earth with the free will to be able to change the course of the future.

So why couldn't it go the other way? Why did Sauron's destruction not end Tom Bombadil (presumably)? If Earth becomes under the dominion of the race of men, the nature of the future may seem less mysterious. Well, the future still remained mysterious because there's no one person who completely dominates the entirety of nature (as Sauron could have if he had gotten the ring and destroyed the free peoples of Middle Earth). The mystery of the future never was broken, even up to this day, which is encouraging to say the least.

Of course, with a mysterious future, it is obvious that there is still going to be some evil, but still some good. A little of both. The Elves fought for good (*cough* most of the time, they kinda messed it up in the First Age though). Orcs, Sauron, Morgoth, etc all fought for evil and power. The Dwarves were the craftsmen who made the tools needed to either fight for good or for evil. And there were the Men, the Humans. Their intentions were never clear, not even to Morgoth or Sauron. They feared men because they had the element of surprise. They knew men could serve them, but they also knew they could turn on you in a second and surprise you. Morgoth aimed for complete and total domination of nature itself and that included the outcome of the future. Seeing that a race had now been created that can either oppose or fight that concept, Morgoth didn't know what to expect.

So it was up to humans to eventually gain control of the world. One race ruling the planet isn't quite as bad as one evil person who has control over everything that happens. Humans are corruptible, easily corruptible. But they are also quick to fight for what they consider to be good. All have different intentions, and each one can change the future in even the smallest ways but put a lot of those 'small' changes together and you get something that somehow changes the future irrevocably.

The Elves have the same ability to a certain degree: to choose to fight for their friends or choose to fight for power. The Children of Illuvatar were ultimately favored by the Valar, as they were the ones whose small changes would affect the future in some way. If those races were destroyed and evil allowed to rule completely, the future would no longer have the mystery nature needs. The only part of nature that would still exist of course, is Earth's limited lifespan itself, which would somehow eventually end.

Tom himself represented the intentions of Eru and the Valar: to not interfere with life on Earth, unless at the utmost end of need. If the Valar had simply destroyed Beleriand in the beginning, it would have not given humans an opportunity to show their great worth, and with that would come a sense of complacency among the free peoples of Middle Earth. They would believe that the Valar would come to the rescue all the time so they would figure, why do anything at all now? In a way, it would not give Elves and Men the ability to be independent. And the nature of the Elves themselves was to leave the mortal lands eventually. It was sort of like a calling back home. The first summonings of the Elves didn't quite work the way the Valar had intended, so the last summoning was more or less the instilling of "this calling" that the Elves felt, especially later on in the Third Age. And this would eventually give the race of Men the independence that the Valar wished to entrust them with.

So fortunately, all went as planned. The Elves (most of them) would return to Valinor and humans would be free from magical influences such as Gandalf, giant eagles, Sauron, the Ring, Elves, etc. The Fourth Age was to be the age in which the last powers of Earth would diminish and subsequently vanish.

Though the Music of the Ainur was tainted through Morgoth, it was still all a part of Eru Illuvatar's plan. If there was no good or evil at all, if one commanded over all, the future would be set in stone, never to change. Illuvatar was unbiased. Only when nature itself was threatened would he act. Nature itself was threatened a number of times earlier on. The Children of Illuvatar were being hunted to the last by Morgoth in the dark times. Illuvatar only acted when one power was about to rule completely.

The Powers wanted more than anything to preserve the mystery of the future, and Tom represents that part of the song. Tolkien making Tom Bombadil a mystery is sort of like what the Valar did to protect the open-ended future of Arda and what lies beyond. It shows that even the Valar, may I say, even Illuvatar himself, didn't know what the outcome of the future would be. That was his intention: to create something that even he did not know the ends to. "Even the very wise cannot see all ends" - a quote by Gandalf. I'm personally glad that no one can see all ends as that would defeat the purpose of existence. Someone may be able to see part of the future, but even that prediction cannot be certain.

Good: Life, freedom, free will, friendship, love, joy.
Evil: Death, power, dominion, violence, rage, anger, sorrow.

Those two, good and evil, need each other. Without one or the other, there would be no definition for the aspects of the side that remained. If everyone was immortal and no one could die no matter what happened, then the word "life" would cease to have any meaning. Existence would become complacency and would totally be given a constant status, defeating nature as we know it. Tom would probably like the phrase, "change is the only constant in nature". If that constant could be changed, everything would lose meaning. Time would not be quite right and up would be down, heck, up could become left or right. Existence would be nullified.

God: Illuvatar, the unbiased creator of everything. Never had a beginning, will never have an end.
Nature: The source of existence: the only constant being change. Can only be defeated if change doesn't happen anymore.
Tom: The living representative of nature, and representative of God's true plans (that shall never be revealed, even to God, until an event has come to pass). (in my mind)
Valar: The builders, the singers, the Powers. Their goal is/should be to preserve nature by getting the Children of Illuvatar off their feet so that they can have dominion over a world ruled by the free will of its people, never completely ruled and commanded by the design of one person.
Morgoth: Source of evil, was just the other element that (believe it or not) was needed to make existence proceed. Through his evil, the world's citizens learned how to make war. The people learned about torment, cruelty, war, death, suffering, and sorrow. Those seeds planted by Morgoth would continue long after Morgoth's banishment from the world, and continues long after Sauron's destruction. Now, from those seeds planted, evil will continue in some way in all people. But the good designed by the Powers will remain as well. So now we have no supreme source of evil. Evil has its origins with Morgoth's acts, but now it exists in everyone.

So we have someone who is basically an idea, a representative of nature perhaps. He may or may not represent nature, because Tom will always be a complete mystery, just as he was to Tolkien. We can be thankful that such a mystery exists, because, as Bombadil himself said,

Whatever the case....Bombadil, to me, is one of the most interesting characters in all of Tolkien's works and the fact this post exists is a testament to that.

Very true words.

[durinsbane2244]

Wow. That was...incredibly long and well thought out. High five. :D

[Jon S.]

Thanks for your post, Ingwe. Personally, I come out differently on several of the issues you've touched on but as with all mysteries, viva la differance. :)

One difference I will mention now is concerning your using the adjective "complete" to describe Tom's mystery. In fact, he's not a complete mystery but merely a partial one. I say this because we know what his name is, what he looks like, where he lives, who's his wife, what she looks like, some of what he says, some of what he does, and the same for his wife. That's a fair bit o' info. in my book.

[Ingwe]

The nature of Tom being of course the complete mystery. He had a couple of names, Tom and Iarwain Ben-adar, and some by the Dwarves. That part isn't a mystery, nor is his apparent location in Middle Earth at that time. His nature is of course the mystery. He probably named himself of course, being one of the first, if not THE first. Tom Bombadil is a pretty cool name and I'd probably consider using that name if I were him. Either that or Max Power. :p

Another explanation I find very...interesting...is the one in this link: The Truth About Tom Bombadil (http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm).

[Jon S.]

Yes, I remember that one, LOL! :D

[Ingwe]

Tom Bombadil was either nature, or one of the songs of Eru, or just the essence of Eru's idea, or perhaps just a multi-personality disorder Witch-King. LoL. :D Too bad when they disassembled Minas Morgul that they didn't find the Witch-King's private diary. It may have had something in there about it LoL. Or maybe they did find something. No one now knows.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Remember even to the characters in the story Bombadil is a bit of a mystery. He was a mystery to the author as well. But since this all about our own speculation I believe he was the essence of life - the breath of Eru. When dealing with the Tolkien Universe I view the stories of the Silmarrillion as mythical stories of creation and ancient warriors where as the Lord of the Rings as an historical recording of events. Any ancient narrative regarding the nature of the universe pails in comparison to the wonders revealed via true events - just as the ancient myths that have defined the various cultures around today pail when looking at the wonders of the universe that we have barely begun to understand.

[ecthelion]

He was the conductor of the music !

Eru was the composer, and he intervened three times inside the music, but who really was the conductor? Old Bombadil !

That's why he's the master, but nothing belongs to him.

He wasn't part of the music, and the music does not hold him as fate.

*puts on bulletproof vest*

opinions?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Say, that's a good idea! *pulls out a machine gun* :eek: ;) :) I mean, really, it's a good thought. *eats the machine gun, because it's made of liquorice* That would make sense. Though couldn't he still have his origin in Eru's last song? It was an independent being, sorta... :confused: :D

[Coffeehouse]

In a post written many years ago, the following link was given, http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html, on who Tom Bombadil is.
Gene Hargrove, the author of the essay, argues that not only would it have been unlikely that JRRT did not know of the true nature of Bombadil, but also makes a very convincing argument that Tom Bombadil is Aule and that his wife Goldberry is Yavanna.

I think it's a good theory, and by far the most convincing I've come across as of yet. Thought I'd share some of the similiarities G. Hargrove presents in his essay:

"Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills."

and
"When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person."

[GrayMouser]

The problem with that is that Bombadil is not in the least bit interested in making things- if anything, Aule is the direct opposite to Bombadil.

Can you imagine old Tom championing the Dwarves over the Ents?

[Coffeehouse]

The problem with that is that Bombadil is not in the least bit interested in making things- if anything, Aule is the direct opposite to Bombadil.

Can you imagine old Tom championing the Dwarves over the Ents?

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

This account of Tom as Aule is not really inconsistent with Tolkien's claim that Tom has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty" and that he exemplifies "a natural pacifist view." At the time of the singing of the Great Music, it is true that Aule, along with most of the other Holy Ones, eventually stopped singing, leaving Melkor to sing on alone. However, they did not stop because Melkor's thunderous and discordant singing defeated them, but rather because they did not wish to compete with him and considered the song spoiled by his behavior. It was not defeat, since obviously by singing together the others could have overcome him. Rather it was a rejection of the conflict itself - hence, a pacifist position. It was indeed the Third Theme sung by Iluvatar, representing the part of the Children of Iluvatar, that was to overcome Melkor's disruption. Concerning the "vow of poverty," Aule has indeed taken such a vow - as exemplified by his attitude toward his work and the work of others - his lack of excessive pride, jealousy, and possessiveness.

In contrast, if Tom is a nature spirit, then no vow of poverty has been taken, and there is no natural pacifist view. According to the nature spirit thesis, as Veryln Flieger puts it in Splintered Light, published in 1983: "Tom Bombadil, on whom the Ring has no effect, is a natural force, a kind of earth spirit, and so the power over the will which the Ring exerts simply has no meaning for him" (p. 128, note). As a natural force, Tom has the same status as a falling rock or the wind or the rain - he is blind activity with no direction or purpose. As such he is not a moral agent, and cannot therefore make moral decisions. The moral dimension is thus completely absent. Tom is immune to the influence of the ring not because of his high moral character, but because he is not capable of having a moral character at all.

If Tom is Aule, however, there is a moral dimension, indeed, a heightened one, for Tom's appearance in the story, although only a "comment," serves as a sharp and clear contrast to the two evil Maiar, Sauron and Saruman, both of whom were once his servants before turning to evil and darkness. Unlike their former master, these two followed the ways of Melkor, envy, jealousy, excessive pride, and the desire to possess and control. As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aule, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession. In fact, in terms of the moral traits that most fascinated Tolkien both as an author and as a scholar, Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's moral ideal.

[Earniel]

But I don't think that quite addresses what GrayMouser said. Aulë is the world-smith, it's one if not the defining quality of him. While Tom may correspond with Aulë in certain side characteristics, he is not a smith or a creator of things.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I like the theory. It makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I don't think it is true.

[Coffeehouse]

But I don't think that quite addresses what GrayMouser said. Aulë is the world-smith, it's one if not the defining quality of him. While Tom may correspond with Aulë in certain side characteristics, he is not a smith or a creator of things.

"It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. "

[Noble Elf Lord]

I like the theory. It makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I don't think it is true.

Well it can't be true! Unless you can prove that Elrond was wrong: he said, during the Council of Elrond, that if Tom held the Ring until Sauron himself came, Tom would fall, and HOW THE H*** COULD THAT BE TRUE if Tom's a Vala? Not possible. And was it not always so that only Ulmo would ever truly contact the children of Iluvatar? This theory wasn't thought all the way through... :cool:

[Coffeehouse]

Well it can't be true! Unless you can prove that Elrond was wrong: he said, during the Council of Elrond, that if Tom held the Ring until Sauron himself came, Tom would fall, and HOW THE H*** COULD THAT BE TRUE if Tom's a Vala? Not possible.

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"In this sense, Tolkien says, Tom's presence reveals that there are people and things in the world for whom the war is largely irrelevant or at least unimportant, and who cannot be easily disturbed or interfered with in terms of it (Ibid., pp. 178-79). Although Tom would fall if the Dark Lord wins ("Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron," Ibid.), he would probably be "the Last as he was the First" (Rings, 1:279)."

[...]

"There are, for example, two Glorfindels in his history of Middle earth, one who died fighting a Balrog in the First Age, and another from Rivendell who lent Frodo his horse in the race to Imladris. This situation was, if not a problem, at least a bit unusual, and required special attention from Tolkien, since in general Elf names are unique to particular individuals. Rather than simply renaming one of the Elves, Tolkien concluded that they were the same person and that he had stumbled onto a rare case of reincarnation among the Elves. He then devoted some time to an examination of the theological implications of this special case."


And was it not always so that only Ulmo would ever truly contact the children of Iluvatar? This theory wasn't thought all the way through... :cool:

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"We know from the Silmarillion that Orome once hunted in Middle-earth, Ulmo had dealings with the Elves there, Olorin walked among the Elves unseen before he was Gandalf, and Melian spent a great deal of time in Beleriand with Thingol. There is thus ample evidence for occasional visits of such beings, even for the most frivolous or personal reasons."

[GrayMouser]

Yes, my main point was that Aule's character, his essence, was totally different from Bombadil's- Bombadil is a nature spirit, totally uninterested in things that are made. Wasn't it said that he would be an unsafe guardian for the Ring, because he would simply forget it or throw it away? Could Aule the Smith be so uninterested in one of the most powerful things ever forged?

Again, Gandalf says at the end of RotK that Bombadil wouldn't be interested in anything they'd done, except maybe visiting the Ents. Why would Aule be so empathetic to Ents, who were specifically created to thwart his own creations, the Dwarves?

[GrayMouser]

"It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. "

Don't have my book handy, so can't remember whether it's Elrond or Gandalf who says that Tom has no power over the Ring; rather it's the Ring has no power over him. Why? Because he's not interested in making or controlling things.

[Earniel]

The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. [/I]"
This could go for every Vala and I'm sure a few of the stronger maiar as well. There is no reason why only Aulë would be able to withdraw himself from the powerful influence from his student's work. One might argue it makes a more esthetic match, the former teacher against the work of his student. But the evidence for only Aulë is IMO too thin. In that aspect, Oromë interests and characteristics be would more likely to Tom's than Aulë.

[Gordis]

It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring

`Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' asked Erestor. `It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.'

`No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. `Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.'

We tend to believe the second source more. Yes, we do, my precioussss....;)

[Coffeehouse]

Yes, my main point was that Aule's character, his essence, was totally different from Bombadil's- Bombadil is a nature spirit, totally uninterested in things that are made. Wasn't it said that he would be an unsafe guardian for the Ring, because he would simply forget it or throw it away? Could Aule the Smith be so uninterested in one of the most powerful things ever forged?

Again, Gandalf says at the end of RotK that Bombadil wouldn't be interested in anything they'd done, except maybe visiting the Ents. Why would Aule be so empathetic to Ents, who were specifically created to thwart his own creations, the Dwarves?

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"It is possible that the nature spirit theory has been held so long because no one could think of an alternative. Consider Jarred Lobdell's treatment of Tom Bombadil in England and Always, published in 1981. Declaring Tom to be the "least successful creation" in the trilogy, he continues:

"Standing alone, he would be a nature spirit.... But he is not standing alone. . . . He is not the genius of the earth, since he is restricted to one part of it. . . . He is apparently a man, since he is clearly not an Elf or a Dwarf or an Ent or a Hobbit or one of the fallen races, but he is not one of the Men of the West. I suppose one could save the appearances by making him an angel, of a different order from the Istari, or by making him a god, but in both cases we would be in conflict with Tolkien's mythology. (pp. 62-63)"
Lokdell eventually concludes that Tom is an anomaly: "Although I find him an anomalous creation, I can make shift to account for him theologically - but only with the uneasy feeling that making shift is all that I am doing (p. 63)."

While I can agree that Tom is not a nature spirit, a Man, an Elf, a Dwarf, or a Hobbit, I see no reason why Lobdell should reject the possibility that he is an angel or a god - in terms of Tolkien's mythology, a Maia or a Vala."
[...]
"While Tolkien's denial clearly rules out the possibility that Tom is Iluvatar, I do not see that it eliminates the possibility that he is an offspring of Iluvatar's thought, a Vala or a Maia, for I see nothing theologically troublesome with existence being a predicate of part of God."

"Finally, there is Tom's singing. Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it."

"Although this interpretation of Tom's singing is inconsistent with the general claim that Tom is nonrational, it is not inconsistent with Tolkien's own characterization of Tom in two letters in 1954, in which Tom is associated with the pure scientific study of nature. Tolkien writes:"

". . . [Tom] is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular emboding of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly entirely unconcerned with 'doing' annulling with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany, not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. (Letters, p. 192; see also, p. 174)"

"As the exemplification of pure science, Tom could hardly be nonrational. Tom's purity, moreover, stems from his desire to delight in things as they are, without dominating and controlling them. The former is the aim of pure science, the latter the essential aims of applied science. Tom's knowledge of nature allows him to control nature when necessary, but because such control is not his aim, he is more akin to science than engineering."

[...]

"He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves."
[...]
"While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar."

This could go for every Vala and I'm sure a few of the stronger maiar as well. There is no reason why only Aulë would be able to withdraw himself from the powerful influence from his student's work. One might argue it makes a more esthetic match, the former teacher against the work of his student. But the evidence for only Aulë is IMO too thin. In that aspect, Oromë interests and characteristics be would more likely to Tom's than Aulë.

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"Robert Foster in the Complete Guide (p. 496) thus seems to be on the right track when he suggests that "it is possible that he is a Maia 'gone native'." The only problem is that there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character. It is only when one turns to the Valar themselves that potential candidates emerge."

[...]

"Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit."

"In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:"

"In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves."

"When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna."

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

How about the clue that the Hobbits all had fairly vivid dreams in his house? Bring any other Maiar or Valar to mind?

[Coffeehouse]

How about the clue that the Hobbits all had fairly vivid dreams in his house? Bring any other Maiar or Valar to mind?

As far as I can recollect Frodo dreamt of a gate, a flattened, black land, with a large tower and a white-haired man on top, taken away by an eagle. I.e. Gandalf's escape from Orthanc.

Can't remember the other's dreams, but for one it involved water and a swamp.. I think:rolleyes:

I didn't quite get your point DPR:)

[Gordis]

There was one Vala specialist of dreams. He was called Irmo or Lorien.;) I think DPR hints at him.:)

[Jon S.]

Now I'm really scraping my memory but was it Sam who specifically dreamt about nothing?

[Coffeehouse]

There was one Vala specialist of dreams. He was called Irmo or Lorien.;) I think DPR hints at him.:)

Yeah, I was suspecting as much, but in all truth I know little about the various Valar.

Now I'm really scraping my memory but was it Sam who specifically dreamt about nothing?

I think you're right! I seem to remember that too, but it sounded kinda odd:p

In honesty though, I wouldn't read too much into the collective message of the dreams the four hobbits had. Having Frodo dream of Gandalf's escape, which is the main message I'd take from the dreaming, I think it's fair to say that Tolkien wanted to serve the readers the three other hobbit's dreaming as well; in the name of companionship and all:)


That being said, I don't claim to agree with Gene Hargrove's theory, except to say that I think it is well-thought through.

[Jon S.]

As I consider it more, I believe the description is along the lines of whatever dreams Sam had were like those of a log, if logs could dream. :D

I'll have to look it up when I get home!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Irmo and Este have just as good a case (probably better) than Aule and Yavanna.

[Gordis]

Irmo and Este have just as good a case (probably better) than Aule and Yavanna.

I know of one Vala who would fit perfectly. Read and find out :p

Teatime_with_the_Dark_Lord (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1534858/1/Teatime_with_the_Dark_Lord)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

:D
A few of my favorites:
Sauron nodded. “I understand.�
Stupid Ilúvatar.
and
“Just promise to set him up with Galadriel. He’ll do anything.�
and
“Good-bye, Sauron. Have fun taking over the world.�

[Gordis]

Yea, cute little ficlet. My fav part is is:
Goldberry frowned. “You’re not… plotting or anything, are you?�
The man laughed. “No, my darling, of course not! Sauron just dropped by for tea.�
Goldberry shrugged and left the room.
Sauron blinked. All of a sudden, “this life� didn’t look so bad.

[Jon S.]

As I consider it more, I believe the description is along the lines of whatever dreams Sam had were like those of a log, if logs could dream. :D

I'll have to look it up when I get home!
My memory is not as bad as I sometimes think. :)
"As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented."

FOTR Ch. 7

[Attalus]

I like what JRRT said about him: Tom is a mystery, and we will never figure him out.

[ringbearer]

OP here! Cannot believe this thread I started is still kicking around after 7 years!;)

My original thoughts are about the rings effects on Tom...or lack of!

[Ant]

I would say that Tom Bombadil was, if anything, Middle-earth itself. People have claimed he's the Witch-king of Angmar, which he clearly isn't.

There is one major clue that people often overlook.

Tom Bombadil is oldest. He is the first.

But Gandalf says to Theoden when speaking of Treebeard that when he meets Treebeard he will meet "The oldest living thing"

This means that Tom Bombadil is not even alive.

[Ant]

Bleh...disregard that post. Just realised someone said the same earlier.

[Ant]

Oh, and another thought I had regarding Goldberry rather than Tom is that Tom states that "It's Goldberrys washing day" and Tolkien stresses greatly the fact that it's raining outside. Now I wouldn't imagine that Goldberry was the 'under the thumb-male dominated' type. Nor would she wash clothes out in the rain. I would think that perhaps Tom is the the warm weather, or the sun. And Goldberry is the wet weather, or the rain itself. The entire chapter seems to give that feeling.

To reinforce this belief there are a number of points...

Tom seems to want to stay inside when its raining. He seems quite happy to let Goldberry do her thing, to wash the land. Its her turn and he will sit inside and chill out with the hobbits.

The rain has no effect on him. He comes inside from the rain and is completely dry.

And my favorite is the fact that the two seem to dance around, he jolly and capering, her sad and beautiful, yet they seem to create one dance and never get in each others way.

Symbolic of course, but I like to think of it that way.

[brownjenkins]

It's a nice point.

It goes back to my point earlier in this thread (and almost a decade ago :D ), Tom, and probably Goldberry as well, represent beings who are truely at peace with their own existance and place in life.

There's no desire, or yearning for something greater. Simply happiness for what is. Enjoying the moment for what it is.

A rare quality among us lesser beings.

[Noble Elf Lord]

That is indeed a nice idea, but Tom said he's no weathermaster. :p Otherwise it would have worked beautifully. :)

[Ant]

Ah, but the sun isnt a master of weather :) He takes his turn, as does the wind and the rain, and the snow.

Tolkien never ever suggested that characters might represent weather and when Saruman seems to bring snow down on the fellowship, one could look at it as his power of charm to bring down the snow. He is no weather master, but a master of minds and manipulation. Say he wanted to bring sun light down on the fellowship (or had Legolas taken Gandalf literally and gone off to find the sun) perhaps these things would have involved Bombadil and Suaruman using his powers of persausion. But Legolas of course refers to the sun as a 'she'.

Still, I don't doubt that you are right. But Tolkien was certainly capable of and willing to use sybolism. The books are packed with it.

"Who was Tom Bombadil?" Is the same question as "Who was Jack the Ripper?" We will never know. We can have our theories, and discuss it until the end of time, but we will never know. As someone stated, pure inspiration from Tolkien. It's what makes a book timeless.

[Noble Elf Lord]

I agree, Ant. Just wanted to test the newbie a bit. ;)

Guess there'll be soon a thread of how Saruman brought that snow and storm on the Fellowship... :eek: We're really splitting hairs here, aren't we? That's just überfun. :D

[Gordis]

Who said it was Saruman who brought the snow down on the fellowship?:rolleyes: I mean in the books...


It has been discussed at lenght here (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=13004)
I shall bump this thread.;)

[EllethValatari]

Not enough said about him in LOTR as far as I'm concernd. Elrond called him "Eldest" or something like that. Is he a Maiar?Valor in disguise? Exiled from Valinor? Not of this (Middle)Earth?
Any theories?

Theories? No...but I do have a couple quotes from Tolkien himself. When I read TB's chapters in FotR I was mad because he didn't make any sense...so I did some research. When I came across this thread, I decided to go resurrect that research. Anyways, here it is-Tolkien on Bombadil:

In response to a letter Tolkien received from one of his readers, he described Tom's role in The Lord of the Rings:

Tom Bombadil is not an important person -- to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment.' I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in The Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function.

I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.

It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war… the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.

I didn't cite these in my research..

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point... He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession or domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. He hardly even judges, and as far as can be seen makes no effort to reform or remove even the Willow.

I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently... and he wanted an adventure on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out.

I do not mean him to be an allegory -- or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name... [he is meant as] a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the inquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with `doing' anything with the knowledge...

Also Tom Bombadil exhibits another point in his attitude to the Ring, and its failure to affect him. You must concentrate on some part, probably relatively small, of the World (Universe), whether to tell a tale, however long, or to learn anything however fundamental -- and therefore much will from that 'point of view' be left out, distorted on the circumference, or seem a discordant oddity. The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion -- but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe.


Hope this helps clear it up...I also have an essay on TB but it's too long to put in this post...is there any way to put in a pdf file?

[elrosofbc2010]

I'm going to take a slightly different track to answering this question. There've been lots of interesting theories on what he might be in the context of Middle Earth, some of which I agree with, many of which I don't, though my issues have largely been mentioned by others, so I won't bother repeating them.

Instead, what follows is a bit (certainly not the whole story) about who outside of Middle Earth may have contributed to his character...

... Unraveling what may have gone into the character of Tom Bombadil is like trying to unravel a ball of yarn with a cat’s claws still stuck in it. Tolkien himself said of Bombadil that “even in a mythical age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).�[Letters] Piecing together Tom’s existence appears to be quite a hopeless task, then, if Tom’s existence is meant to be a mystery. Nevertheless, there is an interesting Celtic flavor to Tom’s character that merits discussion. As was previously noted, his spouse, Goldberry, seems to show heavy Celtic influence as a localized river-deity. With a Celtic spouse, it would be negligent not to look at Tom with the idea that he, too, may have some Celtic influences at play. Enigmatic though he may be, the thought is encouraging. After all, Tolkien himself said that Tom represented “the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside,� making him a sort of nature spirit tied to a specific place, a phenomenon that occurs with some frequency in the Celtic tradition. While this is not a solely Celtic occurrence, Tom’s roots go much deeper than that.

In The Lord of the Rings, Elrond refers to him as “Iarwain Ben-adar,� which in Elvish means “old� and “fatherless,� fitting as Tom claims himself to be “eldest.� However, since the Elvish language is based on Welsh, it makes sense to look at the name as Welsh as well. In such a case, it could be etymologized as “henseed head-of-birds�: iar means “hen�; gwain means “seed or nut�; adar is the plural of aderyn, “bird�; and pen means “head.� Alternately, the -wain may be comparable to the second element in the Welsh name Owain, which may be derived from the Celtic Esugenus (“born of the god Esus�), in which case Tom’s first name would be something like “chicken-child.� So, then, we have arrived at a version of Tom’s name that means either “chicken-child� or “henseed head-of-birds.� While this sort of naming is typical (and unsurprising) among the Middle Welsh narratives Tolkien studied as an undergraduate, it is not insignificant. In fact, being able to etymologize Tom’s name to this particular translation is potentially very significant. The Welsh etymology of his name (which can be attributed to Leslie Ellen Jones) connects him to an important Welsh-Celtic figure: the poet Taliesin.

The story of Taliesin’s birth is a tricky one: before he was Taliesin, he was a little boy named Gwion Bach. Gwion was hired by the witch Ceridwen to watch a cauldron that, after a year of boiling, produced a drop of wisdom. Now, Ceridwen intended to bestow that drop on her hideous son to compensate for his looks. Unfortunately, Gwion accidentally consumed the drop, obtaining for himself that wisdom. Knowing that Ceridwen would try to kill him, Gwion fled. After a lengthy chase full of shape-shifting, in an attempt to hide, Gwion runs into a barn and changes himself into a grain. Ceridwen, knowing what he’s done, changes into a chicken and eats the grain. At this point, she carries him inside her for nine months and then gives birth to him. He is, however, so beautiful that she cannot bear to kill him or see him come to harm, so she seals him in a watertight skin bag and throws him in the sea. When he is pulled out by a spendthrift son of a Welsh noble, Elphin, he comes out of the skin bag singing consolation to Elphin (despite being only three days old).

From this story, then, Taliesin is both chicken-feed and chicken born, evoking similarities to the etymology of Tom’s name. He is also a singer, and as is seen later in the story, he has a seemingly magical command of language such that the words he speaks actually have power over reality itself. Hence, it is possible for him “to have sung a song at that moment that resulted in the opening of the fetters from around his [Elphin’s] feet.� [Ford, The Mabinogi]. Remarkably, Tom has the same power over language, as evidenced when Frodo and Sam appeal to him for help with Old Man Willow and he responds by saying “That can soon be mended. I know the tune for him. Old grey Willow-man! I’ll freeze his marrow cold, if he don’t behave himself. I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Old Man Willow!� (Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings). Sure enough, Tom trots off and, through song, releases the imprisoned Merry and Pippin from the grips of Old Man Willow. A similar scene of song releasing bonds, of song and language literally having power over reality, connects both Tom and Taliesin beyond the already remarkable similarities of chicken-feed and chicken-born.

A final point of similarity between Tom and Taliesin can be seen in Tom’s boast that “Tom was here before the river and the trees… when the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside� [Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings] when it is compared with Taliesin’s insistence that
I was with my lord
in the heavens
When Lucifer fell
into the depths of hell;
I carried a banner
before Alexander;
I know the stars’ names
From the North to the South… [Ford, The Mabinogi]
Both boasts revolve around a claim to eternal knowledge – both characters insist they are as old (or older) than existence itself. Both refer to stars and fallen lords (Lucifer or The Dark Lord). Both boasts can be seen as a final strand connecting these two chicken-born heroes...

[Noble Elf Lord]

What about Kalevala and Väinämöinen? ;)

[EllethValatari]

Did my citations two posts up help clear things up at all?

[Galin]

In The Lord of the Rings, Elrond refers to him as “Iarwain Ben-adar,” which in Elvish means “old” and “fatherless,” fitting as Tom claims himself to be “eldest.” However, since the Elvish language is based on Welsh, it makes sense to look at the name as Welsh as well. In such a case, it could be etymologized as “henseed head-of-birds”: iar means “hen”; gwain means “seed or nut”; adar ...


Tolkien loved Welsh phonology and purposely desired that Sindarin should have a similar 'taste,' but that said we should be careful about these types of connections, I think. There is a letter in which Tolkien notes, concerning Sauron, for example...

'(...) To take a frequent case: there is no linguistic connexion, and therefore no connexion in significance, between Sauron a contemporary form of older *Thaurond- derivative of an adjectival *thaurā- (from a base THAW-) 'detestable' and the Greek (characters I can't reproduce here) 'a lizard'.' JRRT Letter 297

So it's not necessarily an easy task 'sourcing' Tolkien by noting seeming connections with respect to Elvish names and words or names in Primary World languages.

[elrosofbc2010]

Galin,

I agree. And I'm not suggesting that such sourcing is proof of anything. Having noted that Tolkien did desire Sindarin to have a taste similar to Welsh, however, I do think it is an interesting exercise to 'source' the name, as you say, and see where it leads you. Often times it leads nowhere - and even when it does lead somewhere, it doesn't mean it's accurate. However, it's still a fun exercise, and in Tom's case it was particularly interesting in light of the fact that there are other similarities between him and Taliesin (although, again, I stress: Unraveling what may have gone into the character of Tom Bombadil is like trying to unravel a ball of yarn with a cat’s claws still stuck in it)