Old Elves

[Curandir]

Here's a question thats always plagued me, and some of you with a keener sense for detail would probably be able to help me out. How many elves were able to make the whole circuit in Middle Earth? I'm pretty sure that Cirdan made it, even with battles raging around him, but were there any others?

[webwizard333]

Maybe Elrond?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Ehm... I think someone will have to explain to me what you mean by the full cycle..?

Elrond wasn't as old as many other elves, since he was a mix of man and elf... Glorfindel on the other hand, I think might have been... if the theory that the Glrofindel in Rivendell was the same that slew, annd was slain by, the balrog on the mountain peak after the fall of Gondolin, and sent back...

[Lord Theseus]

Of the famous elves Galadriel was older than Elrond as well as was Celeborn.
But it is questionable whether either of them was alive to make the journey from Cuvienen(sp?) to Bereiland or even to Aman. In fact, I think Galadriel was born in Aman. and Celeborn was born with Thingol in Doriath. So I guess Cirdan may be the only one.

I don't think it was the same Glorfindel. I have never heard of an elf dying, being reborn in the halls of Mandos, and coming back to Middle Earth

[Curandir]

What I mean is through all the ages that Elves were in Middle Earth. Cirdan was pretty much first or second generation elf, straight out of Aman if I may say so, and he stuck it out to the last boat load out of ME. I might be wrong, but I think Galadriel might have made it also.

[Lord Theseus]

oh..i was of the impression that the full cycle meant being born by the waters of Cuvienen when Middle Earth was young and only the stars were in the sky. Then going to Aman(or not), coming back to Middle Earth and then leaving eventually with Celeborn, the last elf from the Elder days to leave Middle Earth.

Does anyone know if Cirdan was Noldoli or not? I was of the impression that he wasn't, and that he was one of the Sindar to stay in Middle Earth and not go to Aman. But I may be wrong.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Lord Theseus: I too believe that it is not the same, but there are many that say it is, I don't know...

As for Celeborn, he is... third generation, I think... the son of Galadhon, son of... Elwe, I think?
Galadriel is the daughter of... "#¤" I can't remember... some Noldor king in Aman...
Cirdan is teleri, I think, one of the sindars that stayed behind...

Ehh... IIRC, Celeborn never left ME? in the end of LoTR he stayed behind, at least, and went to live with Elrohir and... whatshisname in Rivendell for a while...

[Fat middle]

Manwe Sulimo : reread the las paragraphs of the Prologue to LOTR.

Lord Theseus : Cirdan was not a noldo. i think he was a Teleri (those that remained by the sea) but i'm not sure: i'm always messed about the branches of the family Elwe-Olwe which Cirdan belonged to.

[Manwe Sulimo]

I assume that means that it says something about Celeborn leaving ME there, then, and �'ll check it out in a little while, when I get upstairs and offline...

[Fat middle]

i won't tell. i don't want to spoil the pleasure of rereading. Tolkien always says it better ;)

[Manwe Sulimo]

Well, thank you very much! looking forward to finding out what it is... :p

[Curandir]

thanks for all the input. Cirdan is one of my favorite characters of the whole. I think I would have fit in well with the Teleri, given growing up on the Great Lakes and all, and yes I do occasionally listen for the horn of Ulmo:D

[Ñólendil]

I think I remember someone talking about the Cycles of the Elves, someone mentioned that Tolkien had once said (or wrote or typed) that only Elves who reached the Third Cycle of their lives grew a beard, I wish I knew where you could read that.

Glorfindel of Imladris was indeed Glorfindel of Gondolin. This can be found in Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings; Last Writings; Glorfindel.

What I mean is through all the ages that Elves were in Middle Earth. Cirdan was pretty much first or second generation elf, straight out of Aman if I may say so, and he stuck it out to the last boat load out of ME. I might be wrong, but I think Galadriel might have made it also.

I don't know what you mean by that. CÃ*rdan certainly was an Elf who was around before and during the Great Journey, and he did make it to Tol Eressea some time in the Fourth Age (or some say at the end of the Third). Galadriel was born in Valinor (and so after the Great Journey), and she certainly made it back to Aman at the end of the Third Age (specifically the Lonely Isle).

Manwe, unfortunately there's no genealogy that has been published or found that relates the exact relation of CÃ*rdan to Thingol. I imagine though that they were cousins (the key word is 'imagine'). Galadhon was Elwë's nephew (his father was Elmo, Thingol's other brother). Galadriel's father was Arafinwë (Finarfin) who was half Noldo, half Vanya, her mother was an Elf whos name I have forgotten, someone who was of close kin with Olwë. Galadriel was thus 50% Teler, 25% Vanya and 25% Noldo.

CÃ*rdan was indeed a Sinda, of the Falathrim, also called the Eglain.

Curandir, if you ever get a chance, you should buy The Peoples of Middle-earth, Vol. XII of the History of Middle-earth series. There you'll find (in Last Writings of Late Writings) some very unique information about CÃ*rdan.

[Curandir]

Thanks for the tip Inoldonil, I'll be sure to check that out. I had forgotten about the Great Journey, imagine that, until after I posted. For some reason I thought that the elves started in Aman, I know, I'm nuts.

[Tar-Elenion]

Inoldonil:
I am the one who has posted the 'cycle of life' quote. It was published in the linguistic journal Vinyar Tngwar. The statement is that Elves did not usually grow beards until their third cycle, and then goes on to mention an exception in that the father of Nerdanel had a beard though he was only early in his second cycle of life. There is no information on what is meant by 'cycles of life'.

[Ñólendil]

Curandir, that's sort of what I thought but I wasn't sure. It is not a very large slip I guess, when you're in the position to forget things about the Silmarillion, one can really forget things about the Silmarillion.

Elenion, thanks! That really is fascinating. I don't get the Vinyar Tengwar, wish I did. There must be some writing that specifies what the cycles of life are. Sort of odd it would appear only in an isolated note (if that's what it was).

Was the comment about Nardanel's father (Mahtan, I think) from Tolkien or a part of the commentary from the Vinyar Tengwar folks? Or in other words, who didn't explain what the cycles of life were: Tolkien or the VT people?

[Tar-Elenion]

It was from Tolkien.
I think I will 'e-mail' the editor and see if he can offer up any more info on the 'cycles of life' (or if there is any more info).

[Mithadan]

Some info can be gleaned from Morgoth's Ring on the three cycles of Elven life, particularly concerning Elven childhood.

I also admire Cirdan and thus he figures prominantly in some Tales which I have written.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome! Send some of your Fan Fiction to the Trail! Rivendell could use it, you know.

[Michael Martinez]

The Teleri were the hind-most Elves on the Great Journey (the name originally meant "hindmost" or "last"). They were more closely associated with water than the other two kindreds of Eldar, and those Teleri who reached Aman during the Years of the Trees became the Falmari (the folk of the waves, but this is also translated figuratively as Sea-elves).

Cirdan's Teleri settled on the shores of Beleriand and they were falled the Falathrim (the folk of the coast, or something like that). Other Teleri settled far from the Sea, including Thingol's folk (the Eglath) and the Nandor, of whom came the Green-elves of Ossiriand and the Guest-elves of Arthorien (in Doriath) and the Silvan Elves of the Vales of Anduin.

You can purchase back issues of Vinyar Tengwar for $2.00 each if you're in the United States. It's a little more expensive for people outside of the country. Check out http://www.elvish.org for more information on how to acquire copies (you basically send a check to Carl Hostetter and he sends them to you).

The brief note about Nerdanel's father and his beardedness in the early second cycle is found in issue 41 (July 2000) on page 9.

The three most important issues of Vinyar Tengwar for non-linguists (in my opinion) are 39, 41, and 42. Issue 39 (July 1998) contains "Osanwe-kenta" and an excerpt from "Quendi and Eldar" which Christopher Tolkien elected not to published in The War of the Jewels. Issue 41 contains etymological notes on the "Osanwe-kenta" and an except from "The Shibboleth of Feanor" which Christopher omitted from The Peoples of Middle-earth. If you can tolerate really deep discussion, this issue also goes into "The Feanorian Tengwar and the Typology of Phonetic Writing Systems". Finally, issue 42 (July 2001) includes "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" (or, those parts of it which Christopher did not published in Unfinished Tales).

I feel that the "Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" essay is the most important of these works to the non-linguistic community. "Osanwe-kenta" certainly brings a lot of new stuff to the table, but I feel some people have overemphasized one of its notes.

I can't think of anything in Morgoth's Ring which speaks of cycles in Elven life-spans, but there are a couple of essays which reveal a lot of neat stuff, and perhaps those are what are being referred to. I speak of "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth".

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Glorfindel of Imladris was indeed Glorfindel of Gondolin. This can be found in Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings; Last Writings; Glorfindel.


It says in the Sil that Glorfindel was the chief of the House of the Golden Flower of Gondolin. Is it said anything else somewhere about this house?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


It says in the Sil that Glorfindel was the chief of the House of the Golden Flower of Gondolin. Is it said anything else somewhere about this house?

Some people would point you to The Book of Lost Tales, in which you can read the very early story "The Fall of Gondolin". There is some information there about the various "houses" of Gondolin. However, although Christopher Tolkien used "The Fall of Gondolin" as a source for what he published in The Silmarillion, the final form of the story is only an approximation in plot and detail of what his father might finally have achieved.

You cannot simply go mining the early volumes of The History of Middle-earth to see the larger picture of Middle-earth. In this case, the society of Gondolin as depicted in "The Fall of Gondolin" was very different from what would have been depicted had Tolkien finished "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin". There would have been numerous identifiable parallels, similarities, and related items. But there would have been numerous differences, too.

"Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" was published in Unfinished Tales, and it provided Christopher with some source material. But this fragment ends as Tuor passes through the final gate and looks out upon the valley of Tumladen and beholds Gondolin for the first time. And we have no idea of what changes JRRT might have introduced had he finished the story and begun editing/revising it.

So, to answer your question more directly, there is a little more information about the House of the Golden Flower in "The Fall of Gondolin", but it is not very useful for filling out the picture of First Age Beleriand as presented in The Silmarillion. The same stories were retold over and over again, introducing new characters, dropping old characters, altering details of action, dialogue, and plot. They are recognizably the "same" stories, but they are not interchangeable with one another.

Many incompatibilities exist between periods of development of the Middle-earth stories. What you get in The Silmarillion must stand alone, because Christopher had to ensure that it achieved a sense of completion to the cycle begun with the second edition of The Hobbit.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez


Some people would point you to The Book of Lost Tales, in which you can read the very early story "The Fall of Gondolin". There is some information there about the various "houses" of Gondolin.

Thanks for that, Michael. I have a lot of texts to read still, and it will be nice to do it! But I realise the nature of the HoME books.

What interested me was partly Glorfindel´s House as mentioned and his heritage, but partly also that IIRC no other Elven house is named in that fashion neither in the Sil nor LoTR. They are named after forefathers. I guess in your reference it is different.

[Michael Martinez]

The Gondolin houses, in "The Fall of Gondolin", were named for things other than their forefathers. That is one of the differences between the Gnomish society of BOLT and the Eldar of THE SILMARILLION.