Election 2000 (Entmoot and otherwise...)

[HOBBIT]

Well first of all, I'd like to thank my familly (mostly bmilder) for supporting me. :) I'd like to thank entmoots members who elected me to this very important position. I'd also like to thank the admins and mods of this board for supporting me... thanks!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) oh, and i just made that up on the spot, so its not that great. :p :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Fat middle]

:lol: congrats!

[HOBBIT]

yup, tests title.

[captain Tarpols]

tests title

[Fat middle]

hmmm, the President works very early in the morning. good ;)

[HOBBIT]

doing somemore home work that is internet related. :(

[Miralys]

Hey, congrats! :) Too bad we dont know who the President of the USA is yet. :p

[Galladriell]

We don't know, but we can hope*crosses fingers, closes eyes*BUSH

[Gilthalion]

Yes! Congratulations again HOBBIT!

I just got to the computer after staying up all night and heading to work.

Not the Bush landslide the polls indicated, but I'll take an Electoral College Victory.

Hopefully, the voter fraud in South Florida will prove insufficient!

[Syntia]

What is this all about ??

[noldo]

The elections have ended! Congratulations tarps!

When will the new elections be held? Not after 6 years, right?

[anduin]

Election fraud?? When has it been said that it was election fraud? I thought it was from a Florida State Law that mandates a recount. If anything this so called fraud could benefit Bush. BTW, interesting coincidence who the Gov. of Florida is. ;)

[Xivigg]

Congratulation HOBBIT

may your reign be a long one

but since we are in the middle earth ain't we supose to have a king ???

[GlaurungTheGold]

Xivigg's right, lets forget this whole thing and start over again!
the three candidates are princes and will have to duke it out amongst themselves!
ready.... set.... GO!

[HOBBIT]

Alright, who wants ot be in my cabinet?

[gdl96]

Congratulations, Hobbit. The best man won. It was a real heated race, but now that its over, lets go back to being friends. Gil, good job. Maybe I'll get on HOBBIT's cabinet.

[bmilder]

The trouble in Florida is that Bush is ahead by less than .5% of the vote, so they're recounting. The other problem is that in heavily Democratic, heavily elderly Palm Beach County, the ballot was set up in a confusing way so that an unusually large number of people accidentally voted for Pat Buchanan when they intended to vote for Al Gore. I personally hope that they have a new election that county to make it fair. Also, the absentee ballots from overseas have yet to be counted. Last time, 54% of Florida's overseas ballots went to Dole, but you never know; apparently 1,000 ballots could be coming from Florida residents living in Israel. In any event, the overseas people have 10 days to mail in their ballots. So we won't know for awhile.

Gore actually got more votes than Bush, but that stupid Electoral College thing... :/

[Bullroarer]

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!??!!??!?!

I demand a re-count! (for the Entmoot one)

:p

[Darth Tater]

Congratulations Jon! :p

You deserve this. I'm glad to see a good president here at Entmoot (something we won't see in the US no matter which way Florida goes).

[HOBBIT]

Greg (gdl96) is now my Vice President!! :) Greg deserves it and after all, this was his idea :p

[Xivigg]

Can we please stop talking about the US election ???

we also have election here in Canada and we aren't talking about it ???

sugestion: if you want to talk about election start a new forum or something like that
but don't spoil every other one

thanks for your comprehension

Now i hereby ask that the custom Title of the Prez should be change to "King of Entmoot" wich in my mind reflect more the principal goal of this board

[The One Ring]

Congrats, HOBBIT! So, just out of curiousity, is "captain tarpols" also President, or is he just sort of your alter ego? You can't both be prez, you know....

[HOBBIT]

well, i only used HOBBIT to run because 1. its a tolkien board. 2. I figured more people who didn't know me would vote for a familiar name. No, I'm President under HOBBIT, but i am the same person, and i use both names, so i am moderaotr and Prez under both. Depending on who I am logged in as :p

[bmilder]

Ooh... looks like Gilthalion could pull off an upset victory in the Electoral College! Watch out HOBBIT :p

HOBBIT won the popular vote, but the college might not go his way. He handily won the Shire, Bree, and Rivendell, and closely got Rhovanion but looks like Gil is getting Gondor's powerhouse electoral votes, along with Rohan and the Grey Havens. Lothlorien is too close to call, while Mordor and Isengard went for gdl96 ;) . The election could hinge on Haradwaith, which only got the right to vote in these elections recently. Complete results:

HOBBIT:
The Shire (20 electoral votes)
Bree (8 )
Rivendell (9)
Fangorn (5)
Erebor (9)
Mirkwood (10)
Rhovanion (30)
Weathertop (1)

Gilthalion:
Gondor (53 electoral votes)
Rohan (20 electoral votes)
Grey Havens (3 electoral votes)

gdl96:
Mordor (15 electoral votes)
Isengard (4)

Too close to call: Lothlorien (13 votes), Dunland (4 votes), Misty Mountains (9 votes), Haradwaith (37)

[arynetrek]

the letters "LMAO" cannot adequately describe how funny that is!

and congrats again HOBBIT!

aryne *

[Xivigg]

you are discarting my request as if i didn't make it :(

I was expecting at least a no with a small explanation :(

[HOBBIT]

Actually Xivigg, I did bring up your request in the mod forum........

[Elanor]

I don't think anyone will object if you want to discuss the Canadian election as well, Xivigg. Or any other election that happens to be happening. I, for one, would be interested to hear about the Canadian election, although it doesn't affect me directly (although who knows--it might!) :) I think we tend to discuss the US elections because so many of us live here and can identify with them.

Like bmilders interesting little breakdown of Middle Earth into voting disctricts--didn't you forget the Iron Hills and Belegost, bmilder? Or do they have no say in the matter? Anyway, why do all these other places get to vote on the president of Entmoot? ;)

[RovingTurtle]

Congrats HOBBIT w00t (yeah a little late I know)

[Darth Tater]

*Bind and gags Ben and stuffs him in a closet*

[Gilthalion]

Way back earlier when I spoke of voter fraud in South Florida I meant it. I wasn't referring to the lawful recount. I'm talking about the folks demanding a new election.

Following, are the reasons why:

~Pat Buchanan got more than TWICE as many votes in that county before. The local Independent/Reform Party has more than 11,000 members there. I've lost all respect (believe it or not) for Buchanan after his statement today. His own cousin is the party head down there! The last election had a couple of thousand Independent votes. This is the pattern there.

~Perhaps the ballots were a tad confusing. Looks like only about 96% of the people there were able to deal with it. That's the pattern in that county. They seem to have to throw out a lot of votes (4%), as they have had to do in the past. Could it be that out of nearly HALF A MILLION voters, some of the old snow-birds are just having some "senior moments?"

~The Electoral College is a part of this REPUBLIC! We are NOT a democracy! We are not supposed to be a democracy! A Democracy is only a step away from Tyranny! The STATES elect the President. Not the MOB.

This is so that the BIG states do not overwhelm the LITTLE states.

And if the popular vote in a national election were the method, then you might find challenges like this in every precinct of every county of every state in the union! You guys need to go back to Civics class and (if they still teach it) learn why the Founders wrote the Constitution the way they did. If you don't like it, you're welcome to try to amend it, or to leave if you can't live with it. I beg you not to (in many cases) begin your political involvement as young adults by supporting the subversion of the rule of law and the destruction of our Constitutional Republic.

~Besides, Gore's apparent lead in the national popular vote count reported thus far has dropped by more than 130,000 votes to less than 98,000 with 1,000,000 Florida absentee ballots to count as well as many more in New York and elsewhere.

THE BROADCAST MEDIA SHOULD BE SOMEHOW MADE ACCOUNTABLE! They have gotten it wrong the whole time, and it is purely a commercial excercise. As a broadcaster, let me tell you that the whole gimmick is to sell advertising and to make money. That's why they report ELECTION RESULTS as if it were a horse race and This One is ahead and now That One is ahead... BULL HOCKEY DOODLES! No one is ahead or behind until the votes are ALL coun[/b] Everything before that is speculation and has proven time and again damaging to the electoral process.

I'd advise you all not to believe everything you hear these folk say. The stuff I'm reading here is really frightening to me because I think that most of you are rather intelligent, but I see you swallowing the whole thing hook line and sinker.

I don't think that George Bush is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and that's why folk like me didn't turn out quite as hard as the Country Club Republicans thought we would.

But what I have been watching for the last 48 hours has absolutely petrified me.

Bush and the transition team had better hang tough, or the rule of law is at an end.

The election results and the demographic trends convince me in any case that the American Way is just about at an end.

[Bullroarer]

But a republic is a representitive democracy!

One of the few reasons that the Electoral College exsists is because of bad communitcation. We don't have travel for a day to get to the voting booth! We have incredible technological advantages that increse our ability to send messages, get rid of the Electoral Cloogag, we already count the popular vote, why not use it!?!?!??!

Now:

Okay, we all vote, and bmilder decides

-FM

But that's what the college is in my mind! We vote, and they decide! Its (enter insulting name here)

[Darth Tater]

Gil, everybody knows there's no such thing as democracy. (Almost, with the expection of Ben :) ) everybody knows that there's no good man for the job this time. Everybody knows the media is full of @#%$. But what can we do? Absolutely nothing

[Gilthalion]

Let me try to explain this.

Democracy BAD!

Republic GOOD!

If ya'll want to change our Republic into a Democracy, then get to work. But you ought to at least study WHY we are a Republic and not a Democracy.

You might find out that the Founders of this nation were not a bunch of idiots and they carefully considered the prospect of direct Presidential elections and dismissed it.

We have a President of the United STATES! The STATES elect the President.

[HOBBIT]

ARRG! Let's talk about the REAL elections! We are in Fanghorn forest! ;) Gil, stop repeating yourself! You are saying the same thing over and over...... Carry on! Oh, and the next post about the USA election is THIS thread will be edited or deleted by me ( I finally have the power to do that). There is already a thread about the USA elections started by GDL96. Thanks :) This was supposed to be my thank you thread, not debate thread.

[Gilthalion]

Already, the heavy hand of Establishment Power descends upon the masses! ;)

But I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you youngsters would stop repeating the same un-American observations on a system that you don't understand. Hit the books and learn why we have a Republic and why democracies fail!

Congratulations once again! (And remember, you might not have won so easily if I had not removed any objections to increasing your turnout!)

[Johnny Lurker]

(Standard disclaimer applies - everything in here is strictly IMO)

"Let me try to explain this.

Democracy BAD!

Republic GOOD!"

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!

WRONG!

W-R-O-N-G!

!G-N-O-R-W

W
R
O
N
G
!

!
G
N
O
R
W

There. Over and over, forwards and backwards, top down and bottom up... that is WRONG.

The U.S. Constitution is a whole pile of "necessary evils".

The Second Amendment, for example. You take it away, and the country collapses...

BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.



Representative "democracy" is a waste of time. IT is one step away from tyranny. IT is what acts as a cover for the rampant corruption in the CANADIAN governmental situation.

IT... is a "necessary evil" that I don't think is necessary any more.

[Abigail Adams]

The people in Palm Beach who made a mistake on their ballots are not stupid. My sister lives (and votes!) there, she is not old, and she has a degree in classics from the University of Chicago, yet it took her a long time to figure out how to vote for Gore. Unlike what you see in the papers, at her polling place the arrows did not line up with the holes, so there was little way to know you were supposed to punch the third hole for the second candidate. The confusion inherent in such a set-up is undoubtedly why it was illegal to set up the ballot this way in Florida. Furthermore, almost no one there knew the law required the poll workers to give out spare ballots if you botched yours, so people didn't ask and when they did, the poll workers often wouldn't comply.

Saying that people who couldn't navigate this maze to vote don't deserve to vote is no different than the old Southern mentality of saying blacks who can't pass literacy tests are not smart enough to vote.

And this area is not a Buchanan stronghold. It's full of Jews and artists who just despise Buchanan. If Bush is so sure those people wanted to vote for Buchanan he has nothing to fear from a revote. It's precisely because he knows they intended to vote for Gore that he is fighting this.

Accusations of treason seem a bit over the top.

[bmilder]

"The local Independent/Reform Party has more than 11,000 members there." - Gilthalion, quoting Republicans. Ah, but is the Independent Party the Reform Party? No. Buchanan is not running on the Independent Party ticket; and in fact, that number largely reflects Independent Party numbers and not Reform Party. And the Florida Independent Party endorsed Bush. I cite today's New York Times:

At the news conference, Karl Rove, chief strategist for the Bush campaign, said 16,695 Palm Beach County residents were registered in the Independent Party, the Reform Party, or the American Reform Party. Mr. Rove also said enrollment in those parties had risen by 110 percent since 1996, "which would tend to indicate that the people who were changing their registrations were motivated and enthusiastic."

But while Mr. Rove said was a "disproportionate share of Reform Party members in Palm Beach County," Florida election statisticsc show that the overwhelming majority of the voters he cited are members of the Indepedent Party.

In fact, only 337 voters in Palm Beach County are members of the Reform Party, while 16,336 voters are in the Independent Party and 22 voters are in the American Reform Party. And the Independent Party in Florida endorsed Mr. Bush.

(Emphasis added) That just shows that the Bush camp was using misleading statements. There are only 337 Reform party voters in Palm Beach county. Forget the independents, which were supporting Bush!

And Gil, the only candidate in this election who has a criminal record is George W. Bush. In fact, if elected, he would be the first president in U.S. history to be elected with a criminal record. Your charges of Gore breaking the law are mere speculation, but there are actual records showing that Bush broke the law many times. (The most severe brush with the law, being, of course, the drunk-driving arrest that he concealed)

[RovingTurtle]

(while ignoring annoyed look from people debating topic in inappropriate thread :p jk jk please don't bite my head off but it is a little off topic, look at me telling the admins mods and one of the most experienced posters what to do)

Congrats HOBBIT (It was the all caps name that did it... i swear)

[HOBBIT]

hmmm yes, It has gotten a bit off topic hasn't it? I'm not going to delete Abigail Adams or bmilder's posts about the elections. I felt that it was necessary to let them respond to Gil's serious accusation.

[HOBBIT]

Also in response to Gil, I would like to post these quotes, and FACTS from an article I was reading.
Palm Beach County is a Democratic stronghold and has been at the
center of the struggle over the election. Democrats complain that the
county''s ballot was so confusing that many Gore voters mistakenly
voted for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan.


.

Democrats said thousands of votes in Palm Beach County and
elsewhere in Florida may not have been counted because the tiny piece
of paper punched out for a candidate did not completely dislodge.

About 30,000 ballots were rejected in Palm Beach County alone
because they had two or more holes punched for president - or
computers didn''t detect any holes at all.

[RovingTurtle]

Its the age of technology and we're still "punching holes" sheesh

[MerloMo]

This will be the THIRD count. Enough is enough. Dead people voted in 1960, and Nixon was man enough to step down and say that he lost fair and square. Now we're haggling over punched holes. If Gore's gonna be a S.O.B about it, I say that the Republicans should cause some fuss in Wisconsin and Iowa(Where Democrats handed out cigarretes to homeless people to get them to vote for Gore.)

Give it up Al, even G.W. is smart enough to realize you lost!

[Johnny Lurker]

"Palm Beach County is a Democratic stronghold"

Um... since when does that qualify as a fact?

[HOBBIT]

Stupid question! I'm not one to say since when (because I'm so young). But IT IS NOW! I have several relatives living in Palm Beach County. Do you have any "Proof" to support your view, Johnny Lurker? All you have is republican quotes probally made by Bush himself who isn't very bright..................

[Johnny Lurker]

"Do you have any "Proof" to support your view, Johnny Lurker?"

The views I've expressed in this thread are CONJECTURE.

AND THAT IS WHY I SAID, "(Standard disclaimer applies - everything in here is strictly IMO)"!

"IT IS NOW!"

Quoting a media report doesn't prove ****. Heck, even quoting numbers from the media doesn't work any longer, since the media's proven again and again that they don't know what the heck is going on.

"All you have is republican quotes"

Post proof or retract.

[gdl96]

I think all of this recounting is very important. We shouldn't just give up and say Bush won. Everyone's vote should count, and if they don't, and if we give up, and Bush wins, we may never know if he really is our president. I think this should go on as long as it needs so we will truly know at the end who our leader is, and have no doubts.

I now accept the position of Vice President of Entmoot. Thank you HOBBIT. Can I get a title that says "Vice President", now?

I should really change my sig and pic. :p

[HOBBIT]

Every vote does count! Even if you voted for Gore in TX, that STILL makes a difference. Gore is going to win the popular vote. Some idiot and Florida just said that they have til tommorow at 5 PM to count the votes.... Thats not enough time! They need til atleast Friday..

[Johnny Lurker]

NT

[bmilder]

Johnny Lurker, you don't live in this country. You're from Canada. I don't know the first thing about Canadian politics, and I don't expect you to be an expert on American politics. So don't don't pretend that you are. Contesting silly things like whether or not Palm Beach County is heavily Democratic is stupid. I have the feeling that if wrote 1=1 you'd be suspicious and demand proof ;) .

I went to CNN and found an article from last week:
www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLIT...index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/palm.beach.votes/index.html)

Buchanan garnered 3,407 votes in the heavily Democratic county, which many observers claimed was highly unlikely.

They don't have opinions in news articles on CNN. Also, you could've just checked election results from that county to see that Gore won by a huge margin even with all the contested ballots uncounted.

MerloMo, you mention Richard Nixon in 1960. One major difference is that Gore seems to have won the national popular vote, and Nixon had lost that to Kennedy. Winning the popular vote provides the "legitimacy" for Gore's claims in Florida. Gore was the choice of the people in this country, and he also seems to be the choice of people in Florida, had they not been thwarted by confusing ballots, incompetent bureaucrats, and "hanging chads." Did you know that they still use paper ballots, and if you don't punch it completely through, it won't be counted? That's why a hand count is needed. If the little paper square (chad) is clearly detached on 3 corners, the machines might not catch it, but an actual person could.

The Florida Secretary of State is being ridiculously partisan by saying that the hand recounts need to be done by tomorrow. The absentee ballots don't even have to come in by Friday, so she can't certify it until then. A just solution is better than a swift solution. If people wanted to vote for Gore, their vote should be counted. Bush had the oppportunity to ask for a recount in Republican counties but didn't. Why not? I don't know; his loss. Bush is incredibly hypocritical as well; in fact, in 1997, Bush signed a law in Texas saying that manual recounts would be preferable to mechanical recounts! And the Republicans aren't complaining about the manual recount that gave Bush his lead in New Mexico. The Republicans should just let the most accurate count happen. I favor accuracy over speed, and I'm sure the majority of the electorate would agree with me.

[gdl96]

Yes, you're right. Sadly, in an hour and fifteen minutes from now, the votes all have to be counted cuz the judge didn't extend the deadline (which is a bunch of bs).

[Johnny Lurker]

"So don't don't pretend that you are."

If you think I'm being pretentious, great. Go ahead. I don't mind.

"Contesting silly things like whether or not Palm Beach County is heavily Democratic is stupid."

Did I contest it? Perhaps.

Or perhaps I simply pointed out that the media's claiming things as fact without proof - whether or not there is proof to back it up.

And no, I don't count freakin' exit polls as proof... those are simply moronic.

[Darth Tater]

Guys, can this conversation about why America is screwed up please go to the American election thread? This is the place where we say YAY HOBBIT!!!

[gdl96]

Yay HOBBIT! Yay new VP (me)!! Where's my title? Yay HOBBIT!

Are we back on topic yet?

[Gilthalion]

I guess I should move my commentary over to the appropriate thread. I'm reading a lot of regurgitated anti-American pro-Gore propaganda here.

[HOBBIT]

hmmmm I origninally said something like this "My opinion is that your opinion sucks!!" but i relized that saying that was very un-moderator like..... But i have to disagree with you!! I guess I should move my commentary over to the appropriate thread. I'm reading a
lot of regurgitated anti-American pro-Gore propaganda here. ANTI-AMERICAN?!??!?!? How can you say that?! We are allowed to have our own opinion in the US! Just because i think your opinion on the matter SUCKS BIG TIME doesn't mean that your are being anti-american! You are a republican! So DUH your point of view is different. That doesn't make it right..

[HOBBIT]

. *Nevermind*

[Gilthalion]

"Anti-American" as in support for doing away with our
constitutional republic and the rule of law. I've explained
it past the point of irritation.

I don't care what any
ignorant folk think of my opinion. I'm not a Republican, as
I've made clear on previous occassions.

But I see Al
Gore trashing what little good will remained in this nation and
attempting to destroy the very fabric of our law.

Why
do you city-folk support this?

[gdl96]

cuz we're city folk <img src=
http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.
gif ALT=":b">

[bmilder]

I think Gore is being the most honest and reasonable about all
this. He wants hand recounts in some counties where there were
irregularities. Hand recounts are permissible under Florida law,
and today the Florida Supreme Court said that the hand recounts
were ok. And then Gore went a step further: he said that, if it would make George W. Bush feel
better, he would consent to recounting the entire state by hand
and then accepting whatever result that produced as final
. Bush rejected it. What is he afraid
of? He would end up being a phony president, losing the popular
vote and only winning the Electoral College because of partistan
state officials, confusing ballots, and other technicalities.
The whole basis of Bush's lawsuit was that a hand recount in
some counties was unconstitutional because it wasn't being done
in other counties. This is incredibly hypocritical because <!
--EZCODE ITALIC START--> he had the opportunity to request
a hand recount in Republican counties if he wanted to<!--
EZCODE ITALIC END-->. And now Gore is offering to let the whole
state do a hand recount. How is
Gore doing something wrong?
<
br>
I think Gore's position is completely rational and sane.
He's not calling for the abolition of the Electoral College.
In fact he said he'll abide by the Electoral College <!--EZCODE
ITALIC START--> which is more than Bush ever did<!--EZCODE
ITALIC END-->. In fact, prior to the election, when everyone
thought Bush would win the popular vote and Gore would win the
electoral vote, Bush cronies everywhere were quoted as saying
how they would challenge the legitimacy of Gore's victory and
would try to persuade the electors to switch their votes. But
here we are in the opposite situation and Gore is being completely
dignified, rational, and presidential about it. The thing is,
Gore won the Electoral College too.

Accuracy is much
more important than speed. The new president isn't sworn in until
January, we have plenty of time. If, by some technically, Dubya
becomes the next president, I'm sure we'll see a Gore-Bush rematch
in 2004.

[Johnny Lurker]

Perhaps you should look at some of Bush's reasons for declining
hand recounts (as opposed to machine recounts) in places like
Idaho.

Or not. I don't care.

[Darth Tater]

I didn't think you were all stoopid, but i guess you are! There's a thread for discussing the elections! Do that there!

[Johnny Lurker]

pub2.ezboard.com/fbenjami...c&index=59 (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fbenjaminstolkienboardgeneralmessages.showMessage? topicID=740.topic&index=59)

[captain Tarpols]

ok ben, why did you change the title? :p

[Darth Tater]

Because I called him stoopid ;)

[bmilder]

Yeah since most of the discussion already happened here it seems silly to suddenly move to a new thread. It's about the election anyway, even though this started out as an Entmoot election topic.

[Johnny Lurker]

... and GoreCo gets all pissed off.

The only thing that would make sense right now is a state recount.

[gdl96]

Sore
Loserman

No. Every vote counts, right? Or at least its supposed to. If Bush were in Gore's position, he would do the same.

[captain Tarpols]

hmm i'm doing an election update! I'm doing this even though everyone already knows whats going on! Please stand by for many spelling errors!

Miami-dade county has stoped its recount GASP!!!
Cheny had a heart attack, and for some weird reason, bush denied it. GASP!!!
they are now counting dimpled and pregnant chads! :p
hmm mwhat else can i think of that you already know..... umm the re-counts have to be in by sunday or monday morning......Bush has boils on his face...HMM, they noth don't seem to be able to handle stress ;) .
ok, i could just rehash some more stuff, but i have to go to sleep! :P I'm also trying to give this thread life! :p

[arynetrek]

go to the "what has america become?" thread & find the link to How the Grinch Stole the Election... :lol:

CT - Bush denied that Cheney had a heart attack? why would he do something like that? he's sure couldn't cover it up...

aryne *

[Johnny Lurker]

... that it wasn't a heart attack. It was borderline, anyways... they changed the definition of "heart attack" a year ago or something.

[Gilthalion]

Just getting around to looking at this thread again...

In response to bmilder's post:

I think Gore is being the most honest and reasonable about all this.

:lol:

He wants hand recounts in some counties where there were irregularities. Hand recounts are permissible under Florida law, and today the Florida Supreme Court said that the hand recounts were ok.

There were no irregularities demonstrated.

None.

There are no claims of irregularities so much as alleged whereby hand recounts are permitted such as Act of God, tabulation error, or vote fraud. Confusion and negligence on the part of the voters doesn't count.

Furthermore, I again urge you city-folk to go back and study why we have a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC! There are separations of powers between the judiciary, the legislative, and executive branches that are vital to a free society. The Florida Supremes have taken over the executive, and legislative functions of that state's government without even the pretext of overruling the circuit court's decision. They just ignored it and ruled by fiat, changing the rules of the election after the fact.

This is why SURPRISE! SURPRISE! SURPRISE! the US Supremes are going to have to put them in their place.

Gore went a step further: he said that, if it would make George W. Bush feel better, he would consent to recounting the entire state by hand...

Who orders this? Again, this is a position that has nothing to do with existing laws, but simply is making up new rules as you go. Neither Gore nor Bush have authority to do this. It is a hollow offer and Gore knew it.

Bush rejected it. What is he afraid of? He would end up being a phony president, losing the popular vote and only winning the Electoral College because of partistan state officials, confusing ballots, and other technicalities.

If Bush is afraid of anything here, it is the kind of villany which the Gore forces have engaged in at every step of this slimy process. 40% of the Florida vote comes from those Democrat punch card counties. Democrat Trial Lawyers have made a cottage industry out of overturning close elections with selective recounts of punch card precincts.

AND I'M ABOUT READY TO START CUSSING!!! The STATES elect the President. This is a Republic!!!!! Bush won more popular votes than Bill Clinton ever did. He will hardly be a "phoney president" for having won the majority of the states of this union.

As for partisan state officials, I wish everyone from Gore on down would grow up and realize that EVERY OFFICIAL INVOLVED IS PARTISAN!!!!

You want non-partisan, swim to Cuba or dig to China. The partisanship balances out and that's the best you can hope for.

The whole basis of Bush's lawsuit was that a hand recount in some counties was unconstitutional because it wasn't being done in other counties. This is incredibly hypocritical because he had the opportunity to request a hand recount in Republican counties if he wanted to. And now Gore is offering to let the whole state do a hand recount. How is Gore doing something wrong?

This is a superficial and incomplete understanding of the issues which Bush is representing before the SCOTUS and the 11th District courts. There is nothing at all hypocritical about the unchanging, unwavering position which he has taken all along. And again, Gore has no authority, nor does anyone else, to change the rules of the contest after the fact. PERIOD. This is a false offer.

when everyone thought Bush would win the popular vote and Gore would win the electoral vote, Bush cronies everywhere were quoted as saying how they would challenge the legitimacy of Gore's victory and would try to persuade the electors to switch their votes. But here we are in the opposite situation and Gore is being completely dignified, rational, and presidential about it. The thing is, Gore won the Electoral College too.

I may be wrong about this, but I NEVER ONCE SAW an attributed source in any publication that could definitively attribute this to ANY "Bush cronies." Smells like disinformation to me. And Gore took his sweet time denouncing the ONGOING attempt to intimidate Electors. He wanted to see if the public would stand for it first. This is a slim "what if" to try to justify the Goron's attempts to overturn this election.

However, we well know that Gore's team was ready to go election busting on Election Day and put their plan into motion before the votes were even counted.

Gore is not rational. He is rationalizing.

And Gore has not won the Electoral College by any measure whatsoever.

Accuracy is much more important than speed. The new president isn't sworn in until January, we have plenty of time.

There comes a point of diminishing returns. Especially when the "accuracy" depends on deciding whether or not an indentation in a piece of paper is a "vote."

If you go back through and attempt to glean votes out of the LEGALLY DISCARDED VOTES in 40% of Florida's electorate, you disenfranchise the other 60%. Not to mention nearly 100 million other Americans, too. There is NO justification for this selective, subjective, hand recount of machine ballots.

. If, by some technically, Dubya becomes the next president, I'm sure we'll see a Gore-Bush rematch in 2004.

I wouldn't be surprised. But don't be surprised either if Bush has to face a hard fight from McCain in the primaries...


For what it is worth,

[arynetrek]

Bush is being an idiot. Gore is being a bigger idiot.

someone remind me why i voted for anyone in this election...

Gil, post as many "ha! aryne was wrong!" threads as you want...

aryne *

[Gilthalion]

...I've got to agree with that last post!

Bush OUGHT to be reassuring the Market! Duh!