The Matrix and the Star Wars saga

[adidas96]

After watching the Matrix several times, i have noticed some similarities between this movie and the SW movies. First, lets start with Morpheus. Without a doubt, he is the Yoda of the Matrix. He is the wise one...the master...the one with patience who teaches his aprentice. And who is Yoda's aprentice? Luke. Morpheus' aprentice? Neo. There's another connection. For my next connection, we must disregard the relationships in the Star Wars movies. Trinity is kind of a cross between Amidala/Leia/Han. Yes, Han. Han is like the dependle, always comes through type of sidekick. If you dont think about the sex, you see a connection. And for Leia and Amidala, those to show major girl power which trinity has. "Where's the bad guys?" you ask. Agent Smith is like the Palpatine/Sidious. He is the master who knows all and takes on the main opponent. So he is also like Vader/Maul.
I'm probably missing some, so please reply if you have more connections.

[bmilder]

Well, in terms of physical appearance, Morpheus obviously looks more like Mace Windu :p . Agent Smith is more like Vader or Maul than Sidious. We have yet to meet the villain-in-charge, just like we hadn't met the Emperor in ANH.

[adidas96]

Yeah...Smith is more like the messenger and acts like hes in charge. Obvioudly the one who is in charge is one of the AI creations that doesnt stroll around the Matrix like the Agents do. We might meet him in the prequal to come out which focuses mainly on the war between the humans and machines and the creation of the Matrix. Also it might have stuff on the original Matrix and the first renegades.
Anyway, Morpheus may look like Mace, but acts more like Yoda. Although, when we see more of Mace in the next to SW movies, he'll probably turn out a lot like Yoda-very wise, etc. Then there would be a definite connection between him and Morpheus then.

[juntel]

...that they both, as well as many other movies, follow very common narratives.
The Hero, the Master/Mentor, the Evil Guy, the Journey, etc... Lucas admited liking Joseph Campbell's essay "The Hero with a Thousand Faces", where is displayed common bases in many classical stories from long time ago to not so long ago.
In so many ways, neither of those two movies are really original... except in their modern aspect!

[TheRobRoy]

This is a facsinating book (Hero with a Thousand Faces) and is great if you have ever seen the "Power of Myth" series with interviews between Bill Moyer and Joseph Campbell. It talks a lot about the ideas of common myths across cultures, and Lucas as stated that he based a lot of Star Wars from Campbells system of mythos creation. The Matrix (and many, many others) is an exact copy of those themes of mythos creation. You need a hero to whom the audience can relate, which generally means they start out as a Joe/Jane-off-the-street. Then they need someone to explain the real world to them, so that both the audience and the hero understand the rules and the dangers. It is a recurring theme in many movies, novels, plays, etc.

[juntel]

"Power of Myth" was a great series. I have it on tapes.

As for the Matrix, it also is based on a well-know problem of philosophy: what if what we are experiencing is just an illusion created by a computer connected to our brain (or by a god/demon influencing our dreams). A riddle that goes far back, but that has been taken again by B.Russell among others.
It's nice to see a popular movie taking these riddles and putting them in a so exciting manner!

[Fat middle]

anduin has just told me a very curious interpretation of The Matrix, but she´s too scared of Bill Gates to post it, so i´ll do the dirty job :p

The theory is that The Matrix may be a metaphor of Microsoft: an overwhelmig world that surrounds and involves us, preventing for getting information from outside...

I think it´s a very promissing theory, and perhaps y´all can develop other aspects. I´m too scared now of anduin´s admin powers <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">

[captain Tarpols]

lol! anyway, i saw that about a month ago..."there is no spoon" :p the movie was good i guess :p . so, would you take the red or blue pill? or has that already been said? oh well :p

[juntel]

No way the Matrix is Microsoft...


...it worked too well.

[bmilder]

CT, you didn't see it a month ago, more like a week ago. I watched it with you, remember? :p

[IronParrot]

Hehe... I can imagine the Matrix hitting a bluescreen... that would be HILARIOUS.

[captain Tarpols]

ya.

[mRoWrY]

This has nothing to do with an examination of the relationship between The Matrix and Star Wars, but still...

You all know that the matrix is programmed by machines. It is simply a manipulation of brain signals in an attempt to prevent rebellion from the humans that are being exploited as energy for the machines. The movie stated that the machines recreated the peak of human civilization in the minds of these unsuspecting people, which was sometime on the edge of the discovery of machines. This was around 1999, and according to the movie, the present in reality would be around the year 2199.

However, consider the world we are currently residing in. In order to recreate a scene in four-dimensional space-time, it has to have already occurred in the past. This means that the world we are in now (or we THINK we are in) could be one of two times/places: 1999, at the true peak of human civilization, or 2199, in a matrix created by machines. If we were in 1999, then it means it would be fated that we the human race would create machines that eventually overpowered our own kind. If it was 2199, the machines wouldn't want the matrix (existing in 1999) to continue to age all the way until the great incident between humans and machines, so they would obviously continue to loop this matrix over and over in the year 1999 so humans don't suspect it.

What's more to ponder: if in the matrix, the machines allowed people to continue past 1999 and time to progress, eventually they would reach the huge war. Then what would happen if they let the matrix continue its incidents alone, like a random generator? If the machines took over the humans, would the rebellion finally occur? Or would the machines in the matrix create another matrix, henceforth being the matrix in the matrix? And if this was allowed to occur, would this cause an inevitable cycle of matrixes?

So which do you think it is? Are we in the original or one of the loops? I want to hear your responses.

By the way, Ben, you never did tell me the definition of "behave" in your view. ("It's a subjective word... no not 'adjective,' I said 'subjective.' " ):evil: Does posting messages in your forum count?

[adidas96]

Humans would be weak coming out of the Matrix to survive. Remember how they had to rehibilitate Neo after he came out of his pod? Sure, they would want to rebel, but i think the programers would make sure humans never discovered AI. That's what the Agent Smiths are for. If anything like that were to happen, Agents would prevent it.

[bmilder]

Yeah, post all you want as long as your message is appropriate for this board :p

I don't see why we would necessarily progress to the war again, because the people who were involved won't be there, and inventors of key products and breakthroughs would not exist to create the necessary technology.

I wonder if they put in all the people who really existed in 1999, or created new ones. If it were different people, it would be a completely different future. Also, the Matrix has been in place about 200 years, right? There could be an endless loop like you said, but if not, then they started the Matrix out at 1799 or so. America could be destroyed or something, and what if George Washington weren't put into it? (Well, he did die that year, so I guess a more appropriate question would be if they forgot Thomas Jefferson :p )

Plus, even if they used the same exact people who were on the earth in 1999, the world is not 100% the same because of the people like Morpheus and his friends. They may have existed 200 years earlier, but not in that capacity. Plus the agents. So it's unlikely that 2399, which would be 2199 in the Matrix, would be like the original 2199.

[mRoWrY]

At first glance, my initial reaction was, "Oooohhhh, NOW I get it..." but now I realize that I am more confused than before. (After all, "idiots are not known for their comprehension skills." --Ben. :) )

The matrix has been in place for 200 years or less. This spans from sometime after 1999 to 2199. (Think about it, it actually makes sense.) This is a fact. Another fact is that the peak of human civilization occurred in the year 1999. Our timeline now includes:

1. Peak of human civilization
2. Creation of machines
3. So-called "great war"
4. Creation of the matrix
5. Present tense in the matrix

The matrix had to have been created AFTER the peak of human civilization (I think). This is because the matrix was created by the machines, and considering that humans INVENTED the machines and at the peak of human civilization machines did not yet take over, we can conclude this information. Therefore, it could not have possibly been created in 1799. (Thanks for confusing me, Ben. Do you know how long it took me to figure that out? :) )

I believe that if indeed time was allowed to progress within the matrix, another "great war" would occur. Technology would continue marching on; we are reminded of this everyday with breakthroughs and other scientific discoveries. We do not need the key people in the original "great war" to know that machines exceed humans in both the physical and intellectual departments. When this occurred, however, these machines would be different because of the variables involved (new people, instead of the original people).

First of all, the machines would LOOK different. Second, perhaps they would not create a matrix at all. If this was to occur, maybe they would entrap humans in bondage and just have them there, as slaves. (I mean, forget rebellion right? Pretend they don't even consider that as a possibility. :) ) And what if humans decide to revolt against the machines inside of the matrix? If they succeeded, would they simultaneously hold a victory over the machines that CREATED the matrix? Or would the insurrectionists simply keep on believing that they won, but this fact having no significance in the reality?

Someone explain this to me before I stage a debate with myself.

[adidas96]

Wow. Its amazing how a movie can spark as much dabate as SW. Anyway, thats a mouthful, and ill make my response later because im ver lazy. :p

[bmilder]

Why do you think the peak of civilization was in 1999? Did the creators of the Matrix set it to the peak? I don't know how old Keanu Reeves is, but placing Neo at about 25 means he was born in 1974, which means either 1) The Matrix was simulating 1974 or 2) He only has been programmed to think he was born in 1974.

Now the definition of the peak of civilization is debatable. How could humans create such a technological marvel as the AI that defeated them at any time other than the peak? Technology got better and better, which means quality of life went up and up, leading to a peak until the machine revolt. Or did it? The culture seems to be actually declining in 1999, with the advent of rap and other garbage marketed as "music." So did the culture peak in the 1960s, with the harmonies of the Beatles?? Or is the peak marked by technological advances?

[anduin]

Well, I am convinced that humans definitely reached their peak with the advent of The Beatles....at least musically. ;)

What I find disturbing is the idea that humans could reach a peak at all. It is like the old idea that the world was created and has evolved to support humans. That is why we believe that the planet is ours to destroy and abuse, why we believe that we are superior above all species....because we believe that we have reached the top rung on the evolutionary ladder.

Not so....look at the timeline of time itself.....the introduction of humans as we know them, is just a miniscule portion of the entire timeline. We may just be a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things....who is to say that we aren't just the means to an end...that we will eventually destroy ourselves to let some other species (that has been held back by the presense of humans) rule the world?

[juntel]

First, to anduin: it's the peak of human civilisation because, well... human civilisation is basically anihilated into slavery to the matrix afterward, and can't go much higher (pt of view of the Machine).

To all: don't expect the W. brothers to have made a fool-proof story here. It's a story that can have as many logic-holes (hehe...) as Terminator (the base of the story is essentially the same also! except for the Matrix itself...).

Also, the Matrix doesn't have to obey the history timeline that really happened, and can manipulate the historical development (I guess the Agents where chasing more than the Morpheus-like people... they could be also cooling down any intellectual development that couldn't be generated by the Matrix... or something like that.)

The discussion that is happening here is basically "filling the holes", something the W. brothers have/are/will done/doing/do.


(This Matrix withing a Matrix thing... sounds like the Holodec into Holodec story in StarTrek:Next Generation episodes with Moriarty...)

[anduin]

Oh, I wasn't necessarily adding to the Matrix discussion....more likely just gabbing. ;)

[IronParrot]

The virtual reality-in-virtual reality thing has been overdone, and not only in Star Trek (although it's been done in three of the four Star Trek series). It's been done countless times in lots of other TV shows too. Even Red Dwarf did a take on it, twice.

Overdone. Way overdone. I don't want Neo to be "still in the Matrix".

[juntel]

...or the play-in-the-play in Hamlet.

[mRoWrY]

Whoever explained the peak of human civilization, thank you. Here is my own:

The Agent Smith himself stated that the peak of human civilization was recreated, and in the year 1999. (I saw this part twice; that's why I remembered it. Remember when they hooked Morpheus to that machine in an effort to obtain some sort of Zion secret that I still don't understand?) What they mean by "peak," in the machines' opinion, is that this is when humans ruled the world: the humans had power over machines, who/which were not yet developed or debugged, in a programming sense. (Not in the way that Neo had that scorpion look-alike thing in his system... that was just weird.) AFTER any problems in the machines were fixed, the so-called "great war" occurred. Now, I don't know about that thing with Neo's age (by the way, I hear Keanu Reeves is 36. I knew he was old; everyone thought he looked 20-something).

Ok, let me think about that for a moment...;) if that's possible...

This is the partly plausible explanation I have come up with: we have all been speculating possible tangents for time in the matrix to deviate if it was to be let alone. However, we know that it is highly unlikely that this would occur because the machines would probably monitor the matrix strictly and, once the time in the matrix progressed to right before the "great war" (here I'm making things up again), possibly program the matrix back to be in year 1999 once more. And because the people are not actually experiencing this but only having their nervous system manipulated, I would agree with bmilder's 2nd choice: he has only been programmed to think he was born in 1974 (or actually since he's 36, 1963.) The machines have the power and capability to implant into a human mind an artificial history and memory, so this idea isn't as absurd as it sounds.

But as for the "garbage" music; I'll have to agree with Ben.