Gondor's Kin-Strife: Did anyone else take sides?

[Valandil]

Gondor's Kin-strife of the 15th Century, Third Age, had its origins in the mid-13th Century (TA) marriage of an eventual heir to Gondor's throne with a princess from an outlying tribe. Their "half-breed" son, Eldacar, came to the throne of Gondor at the death of his father Valacar in 1432. Open rebellion had begun in the southern parts of Gondor even at the end of Valacar's reign, and Civil War began immediately at the succession - led by Eldacar's second cousin, Castamir - who was Captain of the Ships and had his stronghold at Pelargir.

Castamir's forces moved northward and beseiged Osgiliath, finally taking it - and burning it - five years later in 1437. Eldacar fled, but his eldest son was taken and executed. The Tower of Osgiliath was destroyed in the fire (it was on the Bridge of Osgiliath) and the chief palantir of the South fell into Anduin.

Ten years later, in 1447, Eldacar had gathered an army of northern folk of Gondor as well as Northmen of Rhovanion (his mother's people) and drove southward, retaking Osgiliath, for the people had grown weary of Castamir. Eldacar slew Castamir himself at the Crossings of Erui, and pursued his army to Pelargir, but could not take the city. The following year, Castamir's sons sailed with their remaining forces from Pelargir to Umbar.

In this time, I wonder, what did the other kingdoms and peoples of Middle Earth do? Did some side with or support one claimant or the other? Or did they all just leave it for Gondor to work out? Here are some who come to mind:

Arnor/Arthedain - King Araphor had come to the throne at a very young age (18) in disastrous times (1409), and was only in his early 40's when the Kin-strife began, and mid-50's when it ended - still very, very young for a Dunedain king. Would he have a preference for one king in Gondor or another? Arthedain was Gondor's sister kingdom - would it matter to them?
The Dwarves of Moria were closer than Arthedain - but did they even have many dealings with Gondor?
The Elves of Lorien, and Rivendell, and even Lindon - would they have preferred one over the other? Or thought of one as a more "rightful" king? Are they more likely to be sensitive to the importance of a pure Numenorean line among the Kings of Men? Or did they not think the distinction worth mention, much less fighting over? Or... would they rather just sing a song about something that happened a long, long time ago?
What about the Elves of Edhellond? They were more in the thick of things?
In fact - the ancestors of the Princes of Dol Amroth (already princes, as this was an appointment by Elendil) were right there in Gondor. Did they join in with Castamir's rebels?
And then, the Istari. I suppose the infighting must have been grievous to them - especially Gandalf, I think. They had already seen the division of Arnor, and the resultant wars among those sister kingdoms. Especially if any (Saruman) were dwelling in Gondor at the time - what would they have done? Could they have stayed out of it, if they desired to do so?

[Alcuin]

Were there already Men living along the Long Lake? Were the Dwarves not in Erebor or the Iron Hills in any numbers? The Men of the Long Lake and of Dale at the end of the Third Age were akin to the Beornings and the Éothéod, and so also to the folk of Rhovanion, ancestors of the Éothéod. In any case, the Men of Rhovanion were central to Eldacar’s return to power; but perhaps Men in the region were not yet divided into the separate groups we see during the War of the Ring.

Arthedain and Cardolan had stakes in the outcome of the Kin Strife in Gondor because of the civil war in Eriador. Although the Dúnedain were extinct in Rhudaur with Angmar the real power in that province, Rhudaur nevertheless pressed its claim for possession of Amon Sûl. The primary effect of the Dúnedain civil war in Eriador was likely to have fired any wicked imaginations of civil war among the Dúnedain in Gondor.

The stakes of the Northern Dúnedain among their Southern cousins was that the wiser and more forward-thinking among them both must slowly have begun to realize that there was some common, malicious power working against them in Middle-earth. There was no alliance for another five hundred years, until the year 1940, leading to the marriage of Arvedui crown prince of Arthedain and FÃ*riel daughter of Ondoher King of Gondor, but surely some of the Dúnedain in both realms had begun to wonder if there was not some common denominator behind the afflictions of the two kingdoms in exile, particularly since civil wars beset them both.

Lindon and Rivendell were involved in the Dúnedain civil wars in Eriador. They did not interfere with the Dúnedain and other Men, but they did intervene when Angmar attacked. It seems as if they understood that Angmar was a different kind of opponent; or perhaps this is early but indirect (and inconclusive) evidence of intercession by the Istari, urging them to the attack. In any case, Elves seemed to have practiced a policy of neutrality in conflicts of Men against other Men, unless one side was in open alliance with some power allied (or suspected of alliance) with Sauron.

The Elves of Edhellond do not seem to have been very numerous. I think this was just a point of departure: there no mention of a CÃ*rdan-like figure there to direct ship-building or boarding.

Had the Princes of Dol Amroth allied with Castamir, I believe Eldacar or one of his successors would have relieved them of their ancestral holdings. That was the practice in England, France, Burgundy, and among the Byzantines: in fact, it has been the practice of regents down through history to deprive rebel nobles of their titles and fiefs. Tolkien says the rebels were centered in Pelargir, Castamir’s base of power, and when Eldacar and his allies pressed a siege upon them, they sailed away to Umbar, making that their base of operations. From 1050 when Hyarmendacil conquered Umbar until Castamir’s sons and followers sailed to the old Númenórean fortress in 1448, Gondor had controlled the old capital of colonial Númenor; they did not again control it until Elessar received their homage after the War of the Ring, and even then, I don’t believe they occupied it as before.

But about the Istari: There is no mention of the Wizards intervening in the internecine wars of the Dúnedain, North or South. I suspect they did; and it seems Bombadil did, too, particularly on the part of the Dúnedain of Cardolan. But “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence)â€� as the saying goes, though it must be applied judiciously. We’ve no mention of other actions by the Istari through this gap, either, though in the thread “Saruman: The first 1760 years...â€� I’ve suggested the Blue Wizards might have short-circuited a timely attack by the Easterlings during the Kin Strife; but there is no proof. It is easy to imagine Gandalf on the sidelines encouraging the Eldar of Rivendell and Lindon to intervene in the war against Angmar, and in urging the Dúnedain of old Arnor to more vigilance and preparation: part of his reputation might rest upon such admonitions; but there is no published evidence for that, either. By the same token, it is possible that Galadriel directly or indirectly assisted Eldacar in his exile: Rhovanion was her near neighbor on the other shore of Anduin, and Lórien had strategic reasons for wanting a strong Gondor both morally and militarily: while Castamir might have been strong militarily, his ethics and morals (not necessarily his sexual morals, but his actions and reasoning) were foul: he murdered Eldacar’s son and heir, and he deliberately ruined the beautiful Númenórean capital Osgiliath, losing its irreplaceable palantÃ*r in the process.

The Dwarves of Khazad-dûm were unlikely to intervene in the wars of Men other than by providing weapons and possibly military construction or advice; but there is no evidence of that, either.

The published evidence seems silent on the point; but surely the Eldar intervened, though discretely. Gandalf and Radagast seem to have been in the area of the fighting: surely they, too, intervened in some way. Saruman might still have been in the East, but were he in the west of Middle-earth, I cannot see him not taking sides one way or another. (Again, that might account for some of his later reputation.) The two Dúnedain kingdoms were each under too much pressure separately to interfere in one another’s civil wars. Angmar was clearly engaged against splintered Arnor, though. Dol Guldur was surely engaged, too, but quietly and surreptitiously: it would not do for Sauron to draw undue attention to his hiding place. Rhovanion is not far from Thranduil’s realm, either: it is possible he might have helped Eldacar and the Northmen, but there is no textual evidence for that, either, as far as I can tell.

No evidence outside Eldacar’s alliance with Rhovanion, as far as we can prove, it seems. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t so, and it doesn’t mean I haven’t overlooked something. Because it sure seems like someone – the Eldar and the Istari in particular – would prefer one outcome over another.

[Valandil]

Thanks for the comments Alcuin. Three or four things I want to respond to.

I don't know if Tolkien tells us anywhere about the Men of Long Lake or Dale in this middle part of the Third Age. I suspect they likely originated from other scattered elements of the tribes of Rhovanion - so those places might have been founded around the time the Eotheod began to settle in the Vales of Anduin. Or else - they were descended from other tribes akin to those in Rhovanion - and maybe those towns existed already (or their ancestors lived nearby - in other towns or small villages), and were perhaps bypassed by the Easterlings. Maybe the Easterlings went this way also though - not the prize Gondor was, but easier pickings.

The Dwarves who later settled Erebor and the Iron Hills seem to all be descendants of those driven from Khazad Dum at the appearance of the Balrog - some 500 years plus after the Kin-strife in Gondor. The Balrog first showed up in 1980 and slew Durin VI. In 1981 the Dwarves abandoned Khazad Dum and in 1999 founded Erebor. For some reason - I don't know if it's really given, though it's stated that most of Durin's Folks had gathered in the Grey Mountains - the Dwarves of Erebor left there and went into the Grey Mountains (App A does tell us those mountains were rich and little explored - maybe the Dwarves Ring led them there?). This was 2210. They stayed there until a "cold-drake" slew Dain I in 2589. At this point, in 2590 - Thror (eldest son of Dain) led some folk back to Erebor and Gror (third son of Dain) led others to the Iron Hills, where they established a land of their own.

So... neither Erebor nor the Iron Hills seem to have existed as Dwarf Realms in the 15th Century TA.

I think that by 1409, the Dunedain of Arnor's remnants were all united, and actually enjoying a time of peace. During the reign of Argeleb, son of Malvegil, the kings of Arthedain claimed rulership over all Arnor (since there were no living descendants of Isildur remaining in either Cardolan or Rhudaur - by this I suspect at least no male descendants in a male line). Argeleb's reign was short, so this had to be between 1349 and 1356. I suspect right at 1349, and that "Argeleb" had taken that name at his coronation to signify the claim. The text states that Rhudaur resisted, and by implication, I think the remnants of Cardolan acquiesced. Tom Bombadil paints an ugly picture of what they had come to by then - so it must have been a relief for the people of Cardolan.

Then came 1409. Combined forces of Rhudaur and Angmar attached Cardolan and Arthedain. We're told that in this time, there were no more Dunedain in Rhudaur ("slain or fled"). In this attack in 1409 - Arveleg son of Argeleb was slain, the Tower of Amon Sul was destroyed, any ruling structure left in most of Cardolan was likely crushed ("Cardolan was ravaged" - their prince was slain the Barrow Downs area) - with remnants of their people surviving in the Old Forest (an absolute last resort, I suppose - unless they knew it well or it was friendly to them) - and Fornost was beseiged. However - help was on the way. Forces from Lindon and Rivendell came to the rescue (Elrond had help from over the Mountains - likely Lorien, maybe also Thranduil's realm? After all - Angmar was also east of the Mountains). Angmar then suffered a great defeat themselves - not as absolute as in 1975 - but I think enough to ensure a time of peace for Arthedain. Araphor came to the throne young, at 18, but he had the second-longest reign of any king in Arnor/Arthedain (180 years) - only behind Valandil. I think things had finally settled down up north for awhile in 1432.

I agree that the Elves and Istari would have wanted peace, rather than the Kin-strife - and likely had a preferred successor. I also like to hope that they were at work behind the scenes in these times of trouble. Or else - the greater troubles from 1974 to 2050 shocked them into a higher degree of activity.

[Valandil]

Alcuin - you've got to be right about Gondor and Dol Amroth. There would have been many displacements among nobles in this period. First - Castamir would have removed any who were loyal to Eldacar (probably with accompanying executions - and displacement of former heirs). Then - when Eldacar regained power, he would have removed those loyal to Castamir, and likely also those who had tried to remain neutral. Don't know about the executions then - but those associated closely with Castamir would have tried to flee. Those positions would have gone either to the surviving heirs of their former holders - or else to those who had proven their loyalty to Eldacar.

Someone holding a position of nobility in the southern parts of Gondor in the late 1900's - first references of an ancestor of Dol Amroth's princes - must have been descended from someone like this. In the case of Dol Amroth - by a descendant of someone displaced, and then an heir restored - since their family clearly had holdings from the time of Elendil.

[Valandil]

To summarize about the situation in Eriador at this time - here's what I think things looked like there, in say 1410.

Arthedain was somewhat weakened from two years before - but it was the strongest realm in the north. Fornost was likely intact, they still held the land west of the Weather Hills and North Downs, north of the Great Road - and held sway in whatever was left of Cardolan. Arthedain may have begun to call itself "Arnor" again. I suspect that by this time, they did not have many people west of the Baranduin River. Though it might seem safer, so far from Angmar, it seems like they began to cluster closer to Fornost. They had a young, but brave king, Araphor - whose grandfather would still have been ruling, if not for their recent wars.
Angmar was sorely depleted - such that it might be a few centuries before it was again a credible threat. It still held Carn Dum, and land on both sides of the north end of the Misty Mountains - and likely held sway over anything left in Rhudaur. But for awhile, it was not such a major factor. The Witch-King had lots of work to do. If he had any interest in Gondor once the Kin-strife began - it was only to see the war be as destructive as possible. But he had other things on his plate.
Cardolan - still had some people (including Dunedain - until 1636), but any organizational structure came from Arthedain.
Rhudaur was controlled by hill people, nominally (at least) subject to Angmar, but sorely depleted by losses in the war. They also had Rivendell at their backs - and the march of the Elven forces from Rivendell through their enemy territory of Rhudaur must have been quite disruptive.
Tharbad - I think stood somewhat alone, probably more closely aligned with Gondor, now that Cardolan was so depleted and Arthedain so far removed and so much reduced. This connection with Gondor only lasted until the Great Plague of 1636.
The Halflings - about this time, I think, removed themselves from the area of Rhudaur - some going back over the Misty Mountains to live along the Anduin, others moving west - principally to the area around Bree. Tolkien has a statement on them at this time, but I'm now at the office and left my book at home. It was a couple centuries later - in 1600 - that they petitioned Argeleb II, son of Araphor, to take possession of the land which became their Shire. I doubt the halflings even KNEW about what was going on in Gondor - and if someone else told them, it would be beyond their interest or understanding.


I think things would have been about the same in Eriador from 1432 to 1447.

[Alcuin]

There would have been many displacements among nobles in this period. … Castamir would have removed any who were loyal to Eldacar … [W]hen Eldacar regained power, he would have removed those loyal to Castamir, and likely also those who had tried to remain neutral. … [T]hose associated closely with Castamir would have tried to flee. Those positions would have gone either to the surviving heirs of their former holders - or else to those who had proven their loyalty to Eldacar.

Someone holding a position of nobility in the southern parts of Gondor in the late 1900's - first references of an ancestor of Dol Amroth's princes - must have been descended from someone like this. In the case of Dol Amroth - by a descendant of someone displaced, and then an heir restored - since their family clearly had holdings from the time of Elendil.Eldacar had good cause to leave alone any neutral houses, of which there do not seem to have been many, following his victory over Castamir. It’s my impression that virtually the whole kingdom was drawn into the war, particularly the noble houses, just as during the Hundred Years’ War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years'_War) in France and the subsequent Wars of the Roses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses) in England it was nearly impossible to remain neutral for long. Eldacar could ill afford to depose or punish a noble family that tried to keep out of the war between the rival claimants in the House of Anárion. There must have been few who could remain neutral: Tolkien describes Castamir as an odious ruler, one disinclined to tolerate neutrality. From Appendix A, [Castamir] had been king … ten years, when Eldacar … came with a great army out of the north, and folk flocked to him from Calenardhon and Anórien and Ithilien. There was a great battle in Lebennin at the Crossings of Erui, in which much of the best blood in Gondor was shed. Eldacar … slew Castamir …; but Castamir's sons escaped, and with others of their kin and many people of the fleets they held out long at Pelargir.

When they … gathered … all the force … they could … they sailed away, and established … at Umbar … a lordship independent of [Gondor]. Umbar … was never again completely subdued until the days of Elessar…So grievous was the memory of the Kin Strife six hundred years later (eleven generations of the Kings of Gondor, and more of the folk outside the royal family), the Council of Gondor refused to name a king when Eärnur foolishly rode off to Minas Morgul in the year 2050 for fear the Witch-king would attack and overcome Gondor if it suffered another such civil war:[D]escendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; … since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Númenórean blood. So [there] was … no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish. Therefore … the Steward continued to rule Gondor…
We should note that the House of Mardil was surely akin to the House of Anárion, though like the House of Isildur, through daughters intermarried between the two families. The Stewards themselves probably had one of the stronger claims to the throne: but pressing their claim could have been fatal to Gondor; besides, Mardil’s grandfather Pelendur had rejected the claim of Crown Prince Arvedui of Arthedain on behalf of his wife FÃ*riel because she was the daughter of the late King Ondoher of Gondor and not his son: therefore Mardil could not claim the throne through maternal descent, either. The default position was for the Council of Gondor to make the hereditary stewards kings in all but name, leaving what everyone must have thought the empty legalism “until the King returns.” Among the claimants was the Heir of Isildur: Arvedui’s “claim was never forgotten by his descendants even when their kingship had passed away.”

In the case of Arnor and Angmar, they may have had peace after the end of their war in 1409 (or whatever was accounted as peace among the miserable subjects of the Witch-king), but both sides were exhausted for the time being. In Arnor, they had not only to bury their own dead but to dispose of their fallen foes. Rebuilding and recovering are difficult, tiring, and discouraging work, as the parents and grandparents of ’Mooters in Europe can recount. (Anyone in Europe care to share? If you’ve not asked your elders about the end of World War II, you should before they’re gone for good.) Intervening in “someone else’s war” is generally the last thing people want to do after a war of their own. (As opposed to moving from theater to theater in a wider war.) For the surviving Dúnedain of Eriador, their war with Angmar was (seemingly) unconnected to the Kin Strife in Gondor (or was it? ), however much it might have interested or concerned them in terms of trade, diplomacy, and military policy; besides, Gondor was by far the greater military and economic power, even in its weakened state following the Kin Strife.

However, we should consider whether there were folk of Arnor or Gondor living in the other kingdom: merchants, for instance. After all, there was trade between the two until Arthedain collapsed completely. Trade was probably cut off during any fighting: it was too dangerous to travel, and “foreigners” must have been suspect, even Northern Dúnedain, since they might carry messages, or have agendas of their own. There remained a community at Tharbad presumably of Númenórean descent until the great bridge was ruined by the floods of 2912 (only nineteen years before Aragorn was born). There was no formal alliance between the two kingdoms in exile until 1940; but there should still have been diplomatic representatives in the respective capitals: it behooved Arthedain in particular as the weaker kingdom to maintain some diplomatic presence in Gondor, if they could.

I agree that the Elves and Istari would have wanted peace, rather than the Kin-strife - and likely had a preferred successor. I also like to hope that they were at work behind the scenes in these times of trouble. Or else - the greater troubles from 1974 to 2050 shocked them into a higher degree of activity.I had never thought of that, Valandil. I think you must be correct: there was no king in either exile Númenórean kingdom after 2050, and no kingdom at all left in Eriador. The Istari must have found themselves forced into prominence because the Dúnedain lacked their former polity, the monarchies. I wonder if this is when Saruman first began to consider that he might become ruler himself?

[Valandil]

Eldacar had good cause to leave alone any neutral houses, of which there do not seem to have been many, following his victory over Castamir. It’s my impression that virtually the whole kingdom was drawn into the war, particularly the noble houses, just as during the Hundred Years’ War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years'_War) in France and the subsequent Wars of the Roses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses) in England it was nearly impossible to remain neutral for long.

Yes - I meant to make the comparison with the War of the Roses, but forgot by the time I wrote everything else. :p

And yes - you're probably right about any potential neutrals. They would have had to work pretty hard to keep from joining Castamir outright. That - and their position in that - ought to have been considered.

I had never thought of that, Valandil. I think you must be correct: there was no king in either exile Númenórean kingdom after 2050, and no kingdom at all left in Eriador. The Istari must have found themselves forced into prominence because the Dúnedain lacked their former polity, the monarchies. I wonder if this is when Saruman first began to consider that he might become ruler himself?

Sure... Saruman be like, "Why not ME???" :D

But wait... I'm correct??? :eek:

[Alcuin]

wait... I'm correct??? :eek:Sure, and why not?

A couple of days ago, you hit the jackpot suggesting Saruman killed Radagast (http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=16223). Sounds like Eärniel thinks so, too; but she can always speak for herself. And you uncovered the “Century of Discontent� for the Dúnedain (http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=9899) (and Dwarves), Third Age 1944-2050.

You’re on a roll, dude! Keep going!! Must be all that fresh air. Buy a lottery ticket while you’re at it.

───◊───

Castamir’s usurpation of Eldacar could easily have been a “local� event. As commander of Gondor’s navy, the most powerful arm of its military and the part of Gondor’s military might most closely associated with Númenor in its glory days, his adherents were mostly likely concentrated around Pelargir and the seaward fiefs, Osgiliath, and Minas Anor, which also had a port. That doesn’t mean the cities (outside Pelargir, specifically mentioned as the principle stronghold of Castamir’s followers), but that naval forces could move into those places without causing curiosity or concern. If they could strike suddenly, more distant parts of the kingdom could not react before Eldacar was displaced: the only thing he could do was flee.

If the coup took place quickly, that explains why Castamir’s wanton destruction in Osgiliath was so reprehensible. It might also explain how the Dome of Stars was ruined: that’s probably where the royal court (and throne room) were located, as well as the palantÃ*r, and where the royal guard (the black-liveried guard to which Beregond belonged in Minas Tirith, the guard Pippin joined) were posted: they could be expected to fight to the last to defend the Dome of Stars whether or not the king, Eldacar, was in residence; Castamir seems to be the sort to slaughter any survivors for intransigence toward him and loyalty toward the rightful Heir of Anárion.

When Castamir’s sons and supporters fled, they seem to have mostly sea-faring folk: from Pelargir, certainly, because it’s named, but perhaps also from Lebennin and the Ethir. South Gondor became “a debatable land,� not only because it was on the Harad Road, but perhaps also because that was home to some of Castamir’s adherents.

Eldacar’s supporters are specifically mentioned as coming “from Calenardhon and Anórien and Ithilien.� Dor-en-Ernil and Belfalas are fiefs of Dol Amroth, are they not? I wonder where their loyalties fell: both are on the seacoast, and have ports of their own. Nothing is said of the other fiefs south of the White Mountains: Lamedon, Anfalas. Lamedon was inland, but Anfalas or Langstrand means “Long Shore�, another coastal region. When Castamir’s rebels returned from Umbar to raid, they were taking into slavery their own kinsfolk and former neighbors.

[Valandil]

So you read through the "Century of Discontent" thread? Which is actually "Turbulent Times" in the subject line. I just changed that to add the years, so people know when I'm talking about, before opening it.

That was an OLD thread of mine though. So... I can afford to be correct about once per decade. :thumb:

[Alcuin]

So you read through the "Century of Discontent" thread? Which is actually "Turbulent Times" in the subject line. I just changed that to add the years, so people know when I'm talking about, before opening it.

That was an OLD thread of mine though. So... I can afford to be correct about once per decade. :thumb:Two home runs in less than a week isn’t bad, either. You’ve really hit the jackpot on Saruman: I think you’ve nailed what motivated his ambition to become a Power in Middle-earth: the failure of the Dúnedain to preserve their monarchies. There can be little doubt that Gandalf, at least, and surely Saruman, too, advised and helped them, but to no avail. And I think you’re also correct about Saruman and Radagast: if Saruman didn’t kill Radagast, it couldn’t be for lack of trying.

On top of that, I think you’ve pointed out why we don’t hear anything of the movements or activities of the Istari until after the fall and rape of Fornost and the extinction of the House of Anárion: they were quietly helping the kings of Arthedain and Gondor. And I think this explains the timing of Gandalf’s visit to Dol Guldur only thirteen years after the demise of Eärnur.

Sure looks like two home runs and a couple of doubles. Not bad at all. :thumb: back a’cha.

Be sure to get that lottery ticket tomorrow.

[Snowdog]

Interesting discussion here, especially since I'm in the middle of writing two RPs set in Gondor in the years leading up to and during the Kin Strife.

The Tower of Osgiliath was destroyed in the fire (it was on the Bridge of Osgiliath)

I'm curious as to what is the source determined that the 'Tower of Osgiliath' was located in the middle of the bridge between east and west Osgiliath?

[Valandil]

Interesting discussion here, especially since I'm in the middle of writing two RPs set in Gondor in the years leading up to and during the Kin Strife.



I'm curious as to what is the source determined that the 'Tower of Osgiliath' was located in the middle of the bridge between east and west Osgiliath?

Hey Snowdog. I think there are a few. I found one so far, and it's pretty definitive. In the portion of Appendix A that talks about the Civil War of the Kin-strife:


... In that seige and burning, the Tower of the Dome of Osgiliath was destroyed, and the palantir was lost in the waters.

Again, I think there are other places that spell it out a little differently - to give us a slightly better picture - but I'm not finding them right now.

Sounds like a very interesting setting for fanfic. I hope you'll post them here. I've had one in mind - creating a version of "Ben-Hur" connected with the Kin-strife. Maybe Castamir executes a particular noble, enslaves his son and gives the estate to a crony (a former friend of the son, who probably betrays both father and son). Eventually the son would escape, take revenge on the crony and help Eldacar in his drive south - including at the Crossings of Erui, where Castamir is slain. It would need to become it's own story though - not just a retelling of BH. But it has crossed my mind. :)

EDIT: Oops, sorry. You said RPs, not fanfic. Well, RPs can almost become fanfic. If they become cohesive stories, please post.

[Snowdog]

The two RPs are sort of ‘fanfics in progress’. The first one my wife and I started with the fall of Osgiliath, and the tale is told from the perspective of two main original characters. One is an ardent Eldacar supporter that works at organising resistance in Gondor, and the other is an up and coming officer in the Gondorain navy whose loyalties are to Gondor. Anyway, getting back on topic, I have read that line in Appendix A, but never considered it being physically in the middle of the river. We wrote it as being carried off by Castamirians but were intercepted by soldiers loyal to Eldacar on the bridge and it was lost in the river. I see a lot of video game graphics and game inspired artwork that puts it on an island on the east side of the bridge.

As for who else joined in, the Castamirians invested heavily in Umbar and likely had dealings with some tribes of Harad. The easterlings were still recovering from the beating they took when Gondor and Rhovania defeated them not long before.