Driving Sauron from Dol Guldor

[Valandil]

Not especially fond of the Hobbit Movie Trilogy, but the last one - Battle of Five Armies - has been playing on TV a lot lately, and I've been watching now and then.

As I watched the scene in Battle of Five Armies, where the White Council drives Sauron from Dol Guldor... I started thinking that JRRT gives us very little about how it would have happened.

What do you think of Peter Jackson's depiction of the event? All the main characters are there: Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Saruman... plus Radagast. Maybe Celeborn should have been included. Do you think there would have been an Elvish army, or just the heavy-weights?

And... what do you think about the portrayal of the combat? And how the outcome was shown?

[Olmer]

JRRt gives us very little because a little has happened.
Actually, according to Tolkien, it went on quite peacefully. His words “Sauron, having made his plans, abandons Dol Guldur “(“LOTR“, App.B) imply that he was not “driven out”, as the White Council wanted everyone to believe, but just unhurriedly retreated in accordance with his own plans.
Jackson hugely overdid the event, bringing in such a crowd. Tolkien asserts that Galadriel alone seems effortlessly razed Dol Guldur after the surmount of the fortress, then what had held her hands to do it at the time of the stand? No need of the Elvish army.:rolleyes:
Jackson's interpretation was entertaining and on a borderline of being comical. Made a more interesting movie from an otherwise plain story .:thumb:

[Galin]

Actually, according to Tolkien, it went on quite peacefully. His words “Sauron, having made his plans, abandons Dol Guldur “(“LOTR“, App.B) imply that he was not “driven out”, as the White Council wanted everyone to believe, but just unhurriedly retreated in accordance with his own plans.

But it's also said that Saruman aided the Council and "... they put forth their strength; and they assailed Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold..." JRRT, Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

Suaron's plans are revealed here a well: that the Nine had gone before him to make ready for his return, so that his [Sauron's] flight was a feint, and he returned to Mordor. And in the longer version of Appendix B [which Tolkien had to be talked out of, and even noted in The Fellowship of The Ring that the published Appendix B was, in part, a truncated version] it's again said that the Sorcerer was "driven out", which again implies force to me, despite that Sauron himself had plans to reoccupy Mordor.

Jackson hugely overdid the event, bringing in such a crowd. Tolkien asserts that Galadriel alone seems effortlessly razed Dol Guldur after the surmount of the fortress, then what had held her hands to do it at the time of the stand? No need of the Elvish army.:rolleyes:

Well, in the later context, Celeborn's host took Dol Guldur, and then Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits. Why at this point? Perhaps because the Shadow had passed, and Celeborn would extend his kingdom eastward, so there was good enough reason for Galadriel to help cleanse the fortress now, along with the forest.

Jackson's interpretation was entertaining and on a borderline of being comical. Made a more interesting movie from an otherwise plain story .:thumb:

I find Jackson's interpretation generally... yucky :p

[Olmer]

Suaron's plans are revealed here a well: that the Nine had gone before him to make ready for his return, so that his [Sauron's] flight was a feint, and he returned to Mordor.
Nope. His plans were different. The Nine wanted to have nothing with Sauron. They established their own stronghold, where Sauron did not dare to show up. I think he even was reluctant to move to Barad Dur, before collecting some lesser rings and gathering more strength, in fear that it was watched by the Nazgul. He started to order them around only 10 years after moving to Mordor, in 2951.
But it's also said that Saruman aided the Council and "... they put forth their strength; and they assailed Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold..." JRRT, Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age
Gandalf is lying talking about theirs strenuous efforts to force Sauron out. At the Council of Elrond they were discussing weapons against the Nine, and Gandalf admitted that Sauron was driven out by Saruman's devices ( whatever it was, maybe, kind like "beam me up, Scotty":), anyway they wanted to use something similar to it on the Nazgul)
Sauron already made his mind about moving, but was procrastinating, so, Saruman speeded him up by demonstrating to him the work of his ingenious gadget.;)

[Galin]

Nope. His plans were different. The Nine wanted to have nothing with Sauron. They established their own stronghold, where Sauron did not dare to show up. I think he even was reluctant to move to Barad Dur, before collecting some lesser rings and gathering more strength, in fear that it was watched by the Nazgul. He started to order them around only 10 years after moving to Mordor, in 2951.

Hmm. Do you have text to base this on? These motives and characterizations I mean. My statement above is a paraphrase from Of The Rings Of Power And the Third Age. "For the Dark Lord had forseen it, [the stroke against Dol Guldur] and he had long prepared all his movements; and the Ulairi, his Nine Servants, had gone before him to make ready for his coming."

Gandalf is lying talking about theirs strenuous efforts to force Sauron out. At the Council of Elrond they were discussing weapons against the Nine, and Gandalf admitted that Sauron was driven out by Saruman's devices ( whatever it was, maybe, kind like "beam me up, Scotty":), anyway they wanted to use something similar to it on the Nazgul)

That Saruman's devices were used, and even proved decisive, in my opinion would not make Gandalf's characterization a lie. "Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood -- and that was in the very year..." The Council of Elrond

[Earniel]

Olmer generally believes in a let's call it... more original reading of the texts than some of us.

[Galin]

I've traded posts with Olmer before, and read some of his opinions. Here, he starts with a seemingly sure "nope" to respond to my brief paraphrasing of something Tolkien wrote, JRRT's fuller version being:

"But their stroke was too late. For the Dark Lord had forseen it, and he had long prepared all his movements; and the Ulairi, his Nine servants, had gone before him to make ready for his coming. Therefore his flight was but a feint, and he soon returned, and ere the Wise could prevent him he re-entered his kindom in Mordor and reared once again the towers of Barad-dur."

So, besides spelling Sauron incorrectly for some reason :glance: I think I did pretty well with my summation... "Suaron's plans are revealed here a well: that the Nine had gone before him to make ready for his return, so that his [Sauron's] flight was a feint, and he returned to Mordor."