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Calandil
04-13-2016, 03:33 PM
Bregolas was the Lord of Ladros until he was killed in the Dagor Bragollach. His successor was Barahir, his brother. Why wasn't his successor his eldest son, Baragund?

Alcuin
04-13-2016, 10:44 PM
The House of Bëor the Old was enfeoffed to Finrod. Since Barahir saved Finrod’s life, and Dorthonion was afterwards such a dangerous place, perhaps Finrod appointed Barahir to lead; or it might be that Barahir led by default: to the twelve Outlaws of Ladros, survival might have been more important that primogeniture.

The surviving women and children fled, led by Emeldir the Man-Hearted; but the men stayed behind, and the only reason for that would be what we would call guerilla warfare. Barahir had been given Finrod’s Ring for rescuing their Elven patron; his wife led the survivors; and Barahir was the oldest and most experienced warrior.

But those are proffered reasons, not an explanation.

Welcome, Calandil! What do you make of it?

Calandil
04-16-2016, 03:28 PM
I think the first suggestion is quite plausible. I asked because the text said that Barahir was Lord of Ladros by right. I had not thought of Finrod's authority to appoint Lords of Ladros.

Valandil
04-16-2016, 04:00 PM
As Alcuin says, Welcome Calandil! Great question!

Alcuin
04-22-2016, 02:22 AM
I’ve thought about this a little longer. I think there’s something else going on: As modern people we don’t take relationships as seriously as even our near ancestors a couple of generations ago.

I don’t think Finrod formally appointed Barahir as leader of the First House. I don’t think he had to.

Bëor’s real name was Balan: Bëor means Vassal in the language of the First House (I think I remember the First House gave up its original tongue to speak Sindarin almost exclusively; it didn’t die out, though, because it was related to the language of the Third House, which became the everyday language of the Dúnedain in Númenor and eventually “Common” language in Middle-earth), because he took Finrod as liege-lord; but Bëor was already Chieftain of the First House of the Edain. It doesn’t sound very like Finrod to formally appoint the leader among this vassals (the whole of the House of Bëor were vassals to Finrod in a feudal sense): that doesn’t fit with Tolkien’s presentation of Finrod’s character. Tolkien makes Finrod one of the noblest in spirit of all the First Age Noldor. (Btw, Galadriel, the only survivor of the royal house of the Noldor in the Third Age, was Finrod’s sister.)

After Barahir saved Finrod’s life, Finrod entered into a covenant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_%28biblical%29#Meaning_of_the_term) with him. As far as I can recall, no other Elf-lord ever entered into a covenant with a Mortal Man except perhaps Gil-galad with Elendil; but that relationship is always described as an alliance, which is a very different thing.

A covenant is an unbreakable agreement between a powerful lord and an underling or vassal. An ancient covenant is not an equal relationship: the person who initiates the covenant must be the stronger party. It cannot be abrogated or set aside. Even if one party to a covenant breaks his commitment (in a “perfect” world, a covenant would only be breached by the weaker party), the other party is still bound to the covenant regardless of the outcome. That’s why Finrod leaves Nargothrond when Beren comes to see him, and it’s why he gives up his own life to save Beren’s when Wolf-Sauron comes to kill Beren.

Covenants are critically important in Judaism and Christianity. They are widely discussed even today in those religions. Tolkien would have been thoroughly familiar with them both as a Catholic and as one of the leading medieval scholars of his day. They were also critically important in Celtic and Germanic (cf. Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Gothic) society, a particular focus of Tolkien’s work.

The Ring of Barahir is the gift Finrod gives in acknowledgement of his covenant with Barahir. Barahir has seniority in circumstances that require a wise, knowledgeable, and strong leader in order to survive; but most of all, Barahir is the only Man in Beleriand with a personal covenant between him and an Elf-lord, and that Elf-lord is the liege-lord of the House of Bëor.

Finrod doesn’t have to appoint Barahir in place of Bregolas and disinherit Baragund and Belegund. They’re going to follow their uncle Barahir because it’s the right thing to do in light of his relationship to the King, Finrod.

Over and over again, the First House is depicted as doing the “right thing” when the Second and Third Houses sometimes did other things. The Second House engaged in power struggle that erupted into civil war; their surviving Middle-earth kinsmen in the Second and Third were Dunlendings. The Third House was the most numerous in Númenor and held the kingship, but they rebelled against the Valar (and Eru!) to become the King’s Men, the Black Númenóreans of Middle-earth. But in Númenor, the descendents of the First House were core of the Faithful Númenóreans of the western part of the island, were their chief was the Lord of Andúnië, and whose descendents were the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor and whose kings were the direct descendents of the Lords of Andúnië.

So I think I think that Barahir became leader by either by acclamation or unspoken agreement because he was the guy with the covenant.

Both the law that allowed the succession of Tar-Aldarion’s daughter Tar-Ancalimë in the Second Age and the arguments Arvedui and F*riel presented in the Third Age to the Council of Gondor in their bid for the crown of Gondor refer to an “ancient law” that rule passed by primogeniture. As far as we know, Baragund and Belegund each had only one surviving daughter. In time of war, the First House and especially the Third House passed rule to sons; this custom was set aside by Tar-Aldarion, but maintained by the Council of Gondor to the great loss of the Dúnedain. (Arnor was destroyed, and a generation later, Gondor was deprived of its hot-headed last king.)

Dior was the first leader of both a House of the Edain (the First House, through his father) and of the Eldar (Doriath, through his mother); Elwing was his daughter. Eärendil son of Tuor was a descendent of Belegund; and since Tuor was rightful leader of the Third House after Turin and Húrin died, Eärendil was rightful leader of the Third House when Tuor and Idril passed into the West and were lost to knowledge in Middle-earth; but through his mother, he was rightful leader of the survivors Noldor of Gondolin. Their sons Elros and Elrond inherited leadership of the First and Third Houses of the Edain, the Sindar of Doriath, and the Noldor of Gondolin. As the elder son, Elros would have primogeniture in all four claims: I suppose that stoked the pride of the Kings of Númenor, since Elrond the younger son chose the life of the Eldar.

(Sorry. Tired, stressed, rambling.)

Lefty Scaevola
04-26-2016, 04:49 PM
Barahir's succession would at least be consistent with Agnatic seniority, Such as the Saxons used. The Noldorin High Kingship in Middle Earth followed no recognizable pattern. Not primogeniture, either Salic or Non Salic, not Agnatic seniority, not a matrilineal pattern.
The only pattern I could discern there is who could command the most loyalty among the available military forces, which might also apply to Barahir's succession.

Alcuin
04-28-2016, 01:23 AM
You know, Lefty, maybe the Noldorin High Kingship was agnatic. Tolkien would be very familiar with agnatic succession because it was practiced among the Germanic tribes he studied in philology.

Finwë was followed by Fëanor. Fëanor died; Maedhros refused to rule – wisely – and passed the High Kingship to his uncle, Fingolfin, whose son Fingon rescued him from Thangorodrim: that eased the resentment of the greater part of the Noldor who crossed the Helcaraxë after Fëanor deserted them, taking the ships seized from the Teleri in the First Kinslaying, thus prevented further strife among the Noldor. Fingolfin died, Fingon received the title. Fingon died, his brother Turgon became High King. After the Fall of Gondolin, Gil-galad, whatever his lineage, became High King.

The inheritance sure looks agnatic:

Finwë (father ,generation 0)
> Fëanor (son, generation 1)
[> Maedhros (son, generation 2), declined in favor of]
> Fingolfin (son, generation 1, brother of Fëanor),
> Fingon (son, generation 2)
> Turgon (son, generation 2, brother of Fingon)
> Gil-galad (son, generation 3, precise genealogy unclear).

That looks a lot like Saxon or Saudi inheritance. The House of Saud practices agnatic inheritance, too, but there can be bumping in line and exclusion, just as Maedhros chose to exclude himself.
The only pattern I could discern there is who could command the most loyalty among the available military forces, which might also apply to Barahir's succession.Saxon kingship likewise bumped lineage and excluded people: Edgar the Ætheling was the last rightful king of the Saxons. He’d been bumped out of place by Harold II Godwinson, who’d no rightful claim to the throne: Harold was not of the cyning. (Anglo-Saxon cyning, “scion of the [noble] kin” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_kingship#Terminology) < Proto-Germanic kuningaz (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/kuningaz), “someone of the family”; akin to modern English kindred (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kindred)) Edgar the Ætheling had to renounce his claim to William the Conqueror, but managed to live to old age. (He may even have sired a son.)

Germanic kingship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_kingship), the agnatic inheritance Tolkien studied professionally, involved a considerable degree of election. The requirement was that the person chosen as cyning (king) come from the family from whom all the tribe’s rulers were elected. (Personally, I think all the Germanic kings were descended from a pair of families that united somewhere around 200 BC: if you trace their putative lineages, that’s about when they converge to the same people, their gods: I’ll bet they were ancestor-worshippers, and Odin et alia were recollections of real people. Also suggested here (http://gamall-steinn.org/Gering/Ger-kingship.htm); the idea was purposed by Snorri Sturlason (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson#Failure_in_Iceland) in the thirteenth century; another take on it (http://www.wilmer-t.net/fornnorden/AncientNordic/HumanOdin.html).) Election of German High Kings continued all the way to 1806 in the Holy Roman Empire: the only criteria was that the Emperor come from the old royal German families, which were all related to one another from time immemorial.

Agnatic succession is messy. It isn’t clear-cut like primogeniture; but maybe it works better when the tribe is constantly under threat of being overwhelmed and killed.

Once Sauron killed the Outlaws of Dorthonion, however, there was no surviving claimant to the Chieftainship of the House of Bëor other than Beren.

Calandil
12-05-2016, 02:32 PM
Alcuin:

It doesn’t sound very like Finrod to formally appoint the leader among this vassals ... : that doesn’t fit with ... Finrod’s character.

Although Finrod might not have needed to make formal appointments, given the respect the Folk of Bëor had for him, I don't see why appointing leaders would detract from Finrod's nobility. Aegnor was also a very noble Noldo, and he intervened to establish territory and leadership for the Folk of Bëor by setting apart Ladros for them and appointing Boromir as their lord.

With respect to whether Finrod's gift of the ring was a token of a covenant, it is interesting that in the Lay of Leithian Recommenced (written in 1951), Beren released Finrod from his oath. That might indicate that Tolkien did not think that Finrod had an unbreakable covenant with Barahir when he was revising the Lay. I do not know of any later relevant information.

Lefty Scaevola:

The problem with the idea that the house of Bëor practiced agnatic seniority is that Baran (according to the genealogies in The War of the Jewels) had a younger brother named Belen. After Baran died, Boron succeeded instead of Belen. Boron also had a brother named Baranor, and Boromir had a brother named Belegor.

Alcuin
01-02-2017, 01:21 PM
Beren may have released Finrod from his oath because, as happened, keeping it was very dangerous to Finrod: In the event of keeping it, he died; Orodreth, his brother, whom Finrod left as regent, was briefly usurped by Celegorm and Curufin. More importantly, it was in keeping (IMO) with the heir of the House of Bëor that he made no demands of covenant upon the powerful Elven lord to whom the First House of the Edain were vassals. Finrod accompanied Beren of his own free will.

In Lefty’s defense – and this is no criticism of what you’ve written, Calandil – agnatic succession is messy. It isn’t clear-cut like primogeniture; but perhaps it works well when the tribe is constantly under threat of being overwhelmed and killed. The elders of the tribe (the Senate, if you will) often have input into who becomes the next king or chieftain: it can be a messy process. If that was the case with the succession of Barahir and Beren, it easily explains how another claimant to the chieftainship would be passed over.

Welcome to Entmoot!

(As an aside, I have been reading and re-reading the passage when Frodo meets Gildor. I am struck by Gildor’s comment, “Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.” I think Gildor’s description of himself, “Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod”, means he must have been one of Finrod’s counselors, perhaps even his chief counselor, and this very decision of Finrod’s to accompany Beren was probably on his mind as he counseled Frodo.)