Gandalf in Moria

[Alcuin]

In “Journey in the Dark�, Gandalf says, “Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost.� But since Gandalf has been in Middle-earth for about 2000 years, isn’t it likely that he also entered Moria in the days of its inhabitation by Durin’s Folk, before Durin’s Bane awoke? Are we to assume that Mithrandir never visited Moria in the roughly 900 years between his arrival in Lindon and the fall of Náin I?

In the Peter Jackson movies, Saruman wants Gandalf to enter Moria, hurling snow at the Company of the Ring in the Redhorn Pass. But in the book, Gandalf agrees with Boromir that the mountain storm was caused by Sauron.
“I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,� said Boromir. “They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.�

“His arm has grown long indeed,� said Gimli, “if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.�

“His arm has grown long,� said Gandalf.
Saruman would have good reason to prevent the Nine Walkers from crossing the mountains: their path from the pass led straight to Lórien, while keeping them to the west of the mountains meant they had to pass Isengard. But Sauron? Why would he choose to prevent them passing over, except to keep them from Lórien? Saruman was already revealed as treacherous: he had been waylaying Sauron’s agents in Eriador, and the Nazgûl had uncovered his espionage ring in the Shire. Sauron probably knew enough of Saruman’s mind to understand that if Saruman obtained the Ring, he wasn’t giving it back. What could be Sauron’s purpose to prevent the passage of the mountains, except to keep them from uniting forces with his enemy, Galadriel?

Sauron knew about the Balrog. The orcs in Moria were from Dol Guldur: the Tale of Years for Third Age 2480 says, “(circa) Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.� He must have discovered from his orcs what was lurking there, even if they did not recognize it for what it was. We have no evidence from Tolkien that the Balrog recognized any claims of overlordship by Sauron. It almost certainly knew nothing of the Ring, and likely knew nothing of the Dwarf Ring, either (it killed two of that ring’s bearers); had it discovered either Gandalf’s ring or particularly Frodo’s Ring, that could have posed a considerable risk to Sauron: the Balrog wasn’t likely to return a purloined Ring of Power, either.

We know from Reader's Companion that Tolkien’s notes indicate that Saruman posted orcs led by Uglúk on the east side of the Misty Mountains to watch for and waylay the Company of the Ring if they emerged. Did Saruman also know about the Balrog?

Finally in this (rambling) vein, what do you suppose Sauron thought once he learned the Company had entered Lórien and that Gandalf had fallen? That someone else had taken possession of the Ring – the Heir of Isildur, of whom Sauron would later learn when Aragorn looked into the palantÃ*r at Aglarond? Would Sauron blame the fall of Angrenost on Aragorn and the Ring – and the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria on Aragorn, too?

[Earniel]

In “Journey in the Dark”, Gandalf says, “Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost.” But since Gandalf has been in Middle-earth for about 2000 years, isn’t it likely that he also entered Moria in the days of its inhabitation by Durin’s Folk, before Durin’s Bane awoke? Are we to assume that Mithrandir never visited Moria in the roughly 900 years between his arrival in Lindon and the fall of Náin I?
It could merely be a naming issue. When Moria was inhabited by Durin's Folk, it was not yet known as Moria, that name came later. So he may have visited Khazad-dum once or more before but the last he was in the underground realm now known as Moria was when he was looking for ThraÃ*n. The place no doubt changed a bit here and there in between.

Saruman would have good reason to prevent the Nine Walkers from crossing the mountains: their path from the pass led straight to Lórien, while keeping them to the west of the mountains meant they had to pass Isengard. But Sauron? Why would he choose to prevent them passing over, except to keep them from Lórien?
It could have been part of a tactic across the entire Misty Mountains. If I remember correctly, the sons of Elrond had already great difficulty getting across a pass to return to Elrond with scouting news before the Fellowship had set off. If most of the passes in the Misty Mountains were closed, it could prevent several different factions of potentially uniting against Sauron: Lorien was cut off from Rivendell and the Grey Havens. Gondor was cut off from Arnor -if Sauron suspected or anticipated any danger from Arnor still. But he would have had suspicions about Aragorn already, I suspect.

If the Mountains were blocked, the only road from East to West was through the Gap of Rohan. And while Saruman may not have been entirely trustworthy to Sauron, the others would no longer have seen him as a potential ally either.

[Butterbeer]

'Moria' as Earniel says, refers to the Post-habitable Mines of darkness and desolation, not the living light bedecked Kingdom of Yore. (Khazad)

I'd be suprised if Gandalf hadnt visited Khazad-dum in its day, but since it became Moria... only the once previously.

As to his "arm has grown long" this is Tolkein's own watercolour:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh87/visualweasel/Sauron.jpg


Who you gonna Trust? JRR or The Movies?
Hmm.. tricky one... :D

Interesting to see Sauron sporting a Mohican btw!
Lets see then- Black, Mohican.. well know for liking the Bling....

Who came before Mr.T? Logically its Mr.S...


More Seriously though, i always thought it was an unknown, and deliberately left so: Gandalf saying his arm has grown long is certainly not positively definitive: its merely conjecture, more a case of saying dont rule out the possibility as crazy, who knows what he can now do?

Essentially there are three options:

1) The Scooby-Doo Scenario:
It just decided to snow. Nothing supernatural whatsoever. It just happens in mountains. Just at that point, and rather specifically concentrated where they were. Spooky, odd, but entirely natural, and the Mountain would have got away with it if it wasnt for those pesky hobbits having an elf, two men, a dwarf and a wizard with them...

2) It was the Balrog wot done it
If we are rounding up all the usual suspects- we cant discount this possibility (see below)

3) It Was the Ill will of Caradhras.
Known as an evil will and certainly Gimli suspects the Will of the mountain. Perhaps though it was prompted or woken up by another external force? Sauron or The Balrog? The Balrog had been snoozing under Caradhras for a fair old while- perhaps this is why the mountain had an evil spirit?


For myself i think it was the ill will of The Mountain itself: when the Balrog senses Gandalfs counter-spell when trying to lock the Door in Moria: both he and the Balrog appear suprised. If so - it follows that it is unlikely The Balrog had sensed them or knew of them attempting to cross the pass over the mountains...

I'm assuming Sauron didn't know the Balrog even existed or was in Moria or had awoken- and i suspect he ideally didnt want the Ring being lost under millions of tons of rock in the dark again... so i don't see him wanting them to go through Moria.

Of course he may well have never have suspected they'd even consider it seriously, and he perhaps did wish them to have to continue in the wilderness west of the mountains where the hunt was up with Wild wargs and regiments of Spies criss-crossing the air...

[AndMorgothCame.]

I believe the evil will of Caradhras comes directly from the evil that is living near it, the Balrog. Tolkien leaves it kind of open-ended in the book, giving the mountain an air of "living" qualities, in his usual genius prose. But that's just his style, I don't think he means to say the mountain was actually living, but that evil will can be transposed upon inanimate objects, i.e., the Balrog turning Caradhras into The Cruel. Butterbeer, thanks for posting the watercolor, AWESOME!

[Olmer]

evil will of Caradhras comes directly from the evil that is living near it
That's right. But it is not Balrog . He did not have the power to move mountains, and, obviously, not any knowledge of the magic, if the greatest of valaraukar Gothmog was defeated without any sorcery.
As for giving the mountain an air of "living" qualities, Tolkien surely meant to let us to think, that the mountains are capable of evil will and violence with a great destruction. Remember the Stone Giants in the Misty Mountains?

[Butterbeer]

That's right. But it is not Balrog . He did not have the power to move mountains, and, obviously, not any knowledge of the magic, if the greatest of valaraukar Gothmog was defeated without any sorcery.
As for , Tolkien surely meant to let us to think, that the mountains are capable of evil will and violence with a great destruction. Remember the Stone Giants in the Misty Mountains?

There are many "evils" in the world, many far older than .......

.. and many not categorized in the Red book, nor known to the "Wise".

But i'm curious - how can you be sure it isnt a latent effect of the long-sleeping Balrog?

Wither comes the essence of will over matter?

[AndMorgothCame.]

Hear, hear Butterbeer! I'm curious as to the same.

[Olmer]

Definitely, not latent effect of Balrog.
My take is, since Balrog is a lesser spirit of fire, he is restricted by his element. His principal weapon is a fiery whip, not spells or ability to move objects. It was never mentioned that valaraukar were great at magic

Though, like Gandalf, he can do a little conjuring tricks like growing tall and menacing, or opening some doors with an appropriate spell (seems, as opposed to Gandalf, he doesn't suffer memory lapses :evil:), but he can't make the stones to move, otherwise he would free himself long before the dwarves breached his crypt.

[Lefty Scaevola]

My take is, since Balrog is a lesser spirit of fire, he is restricted by his element. His principal weapon is a fiery whip, not spells or ability to move objects. It was never mentioned that valaraukar were great at magicEh, no. ... but I have felt such a challenge, its counter spell was terrible. It nearly broke me.

[Olmer]

Hm...It is all Gandalf's hearsay.
Considering how "good" were Gandalf's spells at opening the doors, I would say that his spells on locking the doors were equally ineffective. :cool:I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.
So, actually Gandalf is saying that out of many spells he knows he couldn't use any in proper way. In other words - there was not any real magic spell being put on the door.
Therefore the door has been opened with mere use of muscles, as Gandalf himself has mentioned . In this department Gandalf was out of his league, so in order not to look like an inept braggart he makes up things like he would put a stronger spell, if he would have more time, and he was challenged with a more powerful foe, who was able to break all his so-called "spells".

[Lefty Scaevola]

Gandalf's hearsay. Eh, no. It is a first person statement when Gandalf says it; it would be hearsay when I quote it.

[Olmer]

Right. Let put it this way: it's Frodo's recollection and interpretation of Gandalf's words and actions, but it doesn't change the fact that, according to Gandalf's story, there was non of a real magic that was locking the door. Therefore, why do you need to bother with "terrible" spells on the unlocked door, if you can open it by a mere push of muscles, even if it would be under a strong, proper spell ?

[Alcuin]

We’re rather far afield from my first post in this thread; but let us continue, and perhaps we can circle back around.

First, if we may, let’s examine two of your assertions together, Olmer.
[The] Balrog is a lesser spirit of fire, he is restricted by his element. His principal weapon is a fiery whip, not spells or ability to move objects. It was never mentioned that valaraukar were great at magic

Though, like Gandalf, he can do a little conjuring tricks like growing tall and menacing, or opening some doors with an appropriate spell (seems, as opposed to Gandalf, he doesn't suffer memory lapses :evil:)…

…Gandalf's spells at opening the doors … on locking the doors were equally ineffective. :… [O]ut of many spells he knows he couldn't use any in proper way. In other words - there was not any real magic spell being put on the door.
Therefore the door has been opened with mere use of muscles, as Gandalf himself has mentioned . In this department Gandalf was out of his league, so in order not to look like an inept braggart he makes up things like he would put a stronger spell, if he would have more time, and he was challenged with a more powerful foe, who was able to break all his so-called "spells".

Here’s what Gandalf said at the bottom of the stairway to the Great Gate (FotR, “The Bridge of Khazad-dûm�)

…I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.

…[S]omething came into the chamber – I felt it through the door… It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.

What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.


Tolkien’s world is a “low magicâ€� world: the “magicâ€� usually isn’t obvious, though it is noticeable. Lórien is the most “magicalâ€� place we see in LotR, a place Sam described as like being “inside a songâ€�. We see some other magic: the doors to Thranduil’s hall might be magic in The Hobbit; Sting, Glamdring, and Orcrist all glowed in the presence of orcs; the palantÃ*ri are “magicâ€�; Galadriel’s lecanomancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecanomancy) is unquestionably a “magicâ€�; Gandalf’s lighting fires during the Warg attack in the ruins of Hollin and in the Pass of Caradhras must count for “magicâ€�; and perhaps the fact that Denethor and Faramir can both hear Boromir’s horn during the battle at Parth Galen, just inside the ancient borders of Gondor, should count as “magicâ€�, too. Some of these might be technologies we don’t comprehend: that might be said of the Elven blades, the palantÃ*ri, and Gandalf’s ability to set fires at will (though it is more likely due to his wielding Narya, the Ring of Fire, in the context of Tolkien’s work). The Mirror of Galadriel does not fall into that category. Whether Aragorn’s ability to heal people stricken with Black Breath (alliterates with “Black Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death)â€�), an ability he shared with Elrond and his twin sons, was “magicâ€� might be open to question; but the words of Ioreth, “The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known,â€� would seem to indicate that it isn’t hypnotic: it’s a special gift peculiar to the rightful heirs of Lúthien (or Eärendil).

In this vein, we should note that Galadriel in the story tells Sam that, “[W]hat your folk would call magic … I do not understand clearly …; … they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.� In other words, mortals confuse the “Art� of the Eldar with the goeteia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goeteia), or necromancy, of Sauron and his minions. In a long letter to Milton Waldman in 1951 (Letters of JRR Tolkien # 131), Tolkien points out that

The Machine is ... more closely related to Magic than is usually recognized.

In a draft letter to Naomi Mitchison (Letters # 155), Tolkien points out that,

I am afraid I have been far too casual about “magic� and especially the use of the word; .. Galadriel and others … critici[ze] … the “mortal� use of the word… [F]or the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia.[footnote 1] Galadriel speaks of the “deceits of the Enemy�. … The Enemy’s operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but “magic� that produces real effects in the physical world. …

Both sides live mainly by “ordinary� means. … The basic motive for magia … is immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap between the idea or desire and the result or effect. …

…[I]n this story … [“magic�] is not to be come by “lore� or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such … [footnote 2].�

Footnote 1 says, “Greek γοητεία (γόης, sorcerer); the English form Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as ‘witchcraft or magic performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits; necromancy.’â€� That would include the Rings of Power themselves, as well as the Watchers at the Gate of the Tower of Cirith Ungol and the barrow-wights of Cardolan, evil spirits (Elves that refused the summons of Mandos?) that possessed the dead bodies of Dúnedain killed in the wars with Carn Dûm. Footnote 2 notes that the “Númenóreans used ‘spells’ in making swordsâ€�.

All that to make these points.

Exercising “magic� would seem to take a little of the inherent power of the creature performing the “little conjuring tricks�, as you put it. Fëanor can create the Silmarilli but one time. Sauron puts his inherent power into the Ruling Ring, and when it is destroyed, cannot reform himself. (I suppose that it is a pun.) That would induce a certain economy in using one’s inherent powers.
Other kinds of “magic� might not be “magic� that consumes one’s inherent powers: Bombadil causes Old Man Willow to obey, and beats rain off himself without an umbrella or cloak.
It takes time to work magic in Tolkien’s world, whether magia or goeteia. Gandalf points this out, but it would seem to be reflected in many parts of the tale.
The physical door could be broken by strength, as you point out, Olmer, even though a shutting spell was in properly in place. The spell did not strengthen the door: it merely prevented the door from opening normally.
Without resort to strength, the Balrog countermanded Gandalf’s shutting spell. That was “magic�.
Again resorting to “magic�, Gandalf used a “word of Command�. (This is also how he lit fires in Hollin and the Pass.)
The door, a physical object that could presumably be broken by physical strength in any event, was unable to bear the strain of the three competing spells, and “burst in pieces.�
The surrounding structure was also affected by the spells, and “All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well…�
Gandalf was thrown backward down the stairs. The implication is that the Balrog did not physically touch him, implying that the force that threw him was “magical� in nature, a result of the energy released by the bursting door.

As an aside, the Balrog’s “principal weapon� is not “a fiery whip�, though like many Valaraukar he carried one: his primary weapon was a fiery sword that Gandalf shattered using Glamdring. That seems to have taken the Balrog by surprise: it “fell back� before recovering itself and aggressively springing forward.



…but [the Balrog] can't make the stones to move, otherwise he would free himself long before the dwarves breached his crypt.
I always assumed he was “asleep�. He managed to worm his way down into his hiding place – he was, after all, hiding from the expeditionary force sent by Manwë to capture Morgoth and all his rebellious minion Úmaiar at the end of the First Age.

In only twenty-eight years in the Third Age, from 1974 to 2002, four of the great kingdoms that opposed Sauron’s power were either overthrown or grievously weakened: Arnor-Arthedain fell in 1974, and most of the Dúnedain of the North were slain. The Balrog appeared only six years later, in 1980, and Khazad-dûm was abandoned the next year, 1981, presumably with great loss of life; that same year, many of the Silvan Elves of Lórien began to flee to Belfalas and leave Middle-earth. In 2000, all nine Nazgûl besieged Minas Ithil, capturing it two years later, so that Gondor was greatly weakened.That was a pretty steep loss for the Good Guys in a very short time.

It always made sense to me that the “rousing� of the Balrog might have due to Sauron’s evil will, and that the mining activities of the Dwarves “awakened� him altogether. (They must have made a mighty big “Dwarvish racket�.) He knew all the deep places beneath Khazad-dûm, places of which the Dwarves knew nothing at all, places beneath the deepest part of the Endless Stair; so apparently he’d had plenty of time to wander around and get to know the territory. Maybe that was only after he awoke; but I suspect he’d wandered around down there even before his age-long nap, searching for a good place to hide.

─╫─


Has it occurred to anybody else that the reason Gandalf broke the Bridge was because Aragorn and Boromir decided to join him in the fight? They would undoubtedly have been killed. Did Gandalf sacrifice himself primarily to preserve the Heir of Isildur and the Heir of the Stewards?


Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

[Valandil]

Once again... great post, Alcuin! :)

Hope you also have had a very Happy Christmas, and will have a Happy New Year!

[Valandil]

It could merely be a naming issue. When Moria was inhabited by Durin's Folk, it was not yet known as Moria, that name came later. So he may have visited Khazad-dum once or more before but the last he was in the underground realm now known as Moria was when he was looking for ThraÃ*n. The place no doubt changed a bit here and there in between.
:
:

Not only that - I suspect that the part of Moria could be what he's talking about.

It's pretty clear that the eastern end of Moria was the occupied portion. The true Khazad-dum. There were some passage-ways from there to the west, mostly toward some of their mining operations I suppose - plus one long route to the west gate.

Even if the west gate was only closed "temporarily" in mid-Second Age (see entry for SA year 1697: "The gates of Moria are shut"), who would really want to travel that way - except out of desperation? Dwarves for sure. The Noldor were equally fine with it. But anybody else going to visit the Dwarves in Khazad-dum would go straight to the east gate. Those coming from the west would cross the mountains over the Redhorn Pass, and down the Dimrill Stair. It really sounds like a pretty easy crossing - and MUCH preferable to a closed-in, pitch-black tunnel you had to walk through for days!

So - I suspect that for over 900 years, nearly 1000 years, Gandalf and many others regularly visited the Dwarves of Moria. But always through the east gate, and barely into the complex. Men probably traded with them - maybe Elves too - food for metal implements. All out by the east gate.

[Earniel]

Even if the west gate was only closed "temporarily" in mid-Second Age (see entry for SA year 1697: "The gates of Moria are shut"), who would really want to travel that way - except out of desperation? Dwarves for sure. The Noldor were equally fine with it. But anybody else going to visit the Dwarves in Khazad-dum would go straight to the east gate. Those coming from the west would cross the mountains over the Redhorn Pass, and down the Dimrill Stair. It really sounds like a pretty easy crossing - and MUCH preferable to a closed-in, pitch-black tunnel you had to walk through for days!

I don't know. While the eastern part may have been the most populated or longest populated, the western stretch probably wasn't wholly deserted either. The gate may have been shut, but anyone able to read Elvish script would have gained easy entry, and guards and officials may have been present at all times regardless. The pass through the tunnels undoubtedly was lighted and maintained, and not as subject to the whims of weather and robbers as overland passes would be.

[Alcuin]

“Moria� is a Sindarin word, and sounds like a nickname the Noldor of Eregion might have given Khazad-dûm in jest and in private – it’s probably not a cognomen the Dwarves would readily use for their greatest city-state in its glory. Some Noldor might even have taken refuge there when Sauron overran Eregion. (Not many: Elrond led the survivors north to a fortifiable valley: the foundation of Rivendell.)

After Durin’s Bane emerged, though, “[The] Black Pit� was a good name for the place. Elves, Men, Hobbits, Ents, and even Dwarves used it.
...While the eastern part may have been the most populated or longest populated, the western stretch probably wasn't wholly deserted either. The gate may have been shut, but anyone able to read Elvish script would have gained easy entry, and guards and officials may have been present at all times regardless. The pass through the tunnels undoubtedly was lighted and maintained, and not as subject to the whims of weather and robbers as overland passes would be.I think the West Gate remained open until Durin’s Bane drove out the Dwarves, if only for convenience, especially in the winter. Gimli said door-wardens were posted there. There were Hobbits nearby in Dunland, forebears of some of the Stoor Hobbits of the Shire: Durin’s Folk traded with the Shire Hobbits, and probably traded with the Dunland Hobbits (and Men), too.

Galadriel had high regard Durin’s Folk. She was a friend of Aulë the Vala, respected the craftsmanship of the Dwarves, as well as their military acumen and combat skills. She passed through Khazad-dûm from West Gate to East Gate at least once (in one telling), when Celebrimbor and the MÃ*rdain against her counsel elected to consort with Annatar (Sauron in disguise) to make the Rings of Power. I think she may have used that passage more often, however: and she also knew more of the rhyme that Gimli quoted only in part:Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram,
and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla,
and fair were the many-pillared halls
of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days
before the fall of mighty kings
beneath the stone.
We might consider whether Moria was a term used before the Dwarves were driven out by Durin’s Bane, or only afterwards.