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View Full Version : Orc's and Rings, and will.


Tinman
12-30-2011, 11:27 AM
Could an orc have attempted to claim the one ring? Or would they have had to deliver it to sauron, as they are bound to the will of the dark lord?

Likewise, were the orcs of orthanc bound to saruman's will? It seems they they were... are all orcs bound to someone elses will? I thought that since orc's are of melkor, they were in turn now bound to sauron, but clearly saruman's orcs have a loyalty to him.

Finally, If an orc found a dwarf ring, would he be able to use it while keeping it a secret from sauron?

GrayMouser
12-31-2011, 03:32 AM
There are a couple of clear instances against the idea that all orcs are bound to someone's will. The orcs of Moria who help capture Pippin and Merry claim that all they want to do is avenge the death of their kin and then go home.

As well, Gorbag and Shagrat make a plan that after the war they'll slip off together and "set up somewhere on our own, with a few trusty lads...and no big bosses."

Valandil
12-31-2011, 01:35 PM
You do ask a lot of good and interesting questions, Tinman.

I agree with GM that Orcs are not necessarily bound to another. And even when they are, I think it's more like promising - and oath of service, or service for money or promise of treasure or something. Not so much their wills being constantly dominated such that they always do just what a higher, more powerful being wants them to do. OTOH - in the proximity of such a being, they seem quite susceptible to a greater degree of control. But we're not able to go much beyond speculation. I don't know if JRRT ever completely worked this out, and we know he changed his mind regarding some particulars with the Orcs. Lots of particulars.

I think an Orc who found the One Ring WOULD have tried to claim it for themselves. If there were other strong contenders for ownership around (like a Maia), I don't think an Orc would have successfully kept it for the long-term.

Dwarf-ring - I don't know. But I tend to think any of the Rings (besides the One) would act like a Dwarf-ring in the hands of a Dwarf, etc. Though these 7 may have been made with a purpose as described of their use in the hands of the Dwarves.

All that raises another interesting question: were these 7 rings originally intended for Dwarves, and if so, why did the Elves not give them (or sell them) to the Dwarves themselves, instead of keeping them until Sauron took them and handed them out? There WERE 7, and there happened (?) to be 7 Dwarf tribes. OR - were the 7 and 9 all alike, but responded differently to the hands of Dwarves as opposed to Men? No particular reason to make 9 for Men. Did the Elves just make the 16 (7+9) with Sauron's help and the 3 on their own a bit later? And the distinction in the 16 comes with the nature of the owners?

So... I don't know what would have happened if an Orc got ahold of a Dwarf ring. Would that ring itself have become attuned to the uses made of it by Dwarves for the past millenia? Or would it have quickly attuned itself to the desires and uses of an Orc? No Orc got ahold of any ring of power that we know of - so it's hard to say how it would have come to be used. I tend to think much like those given to Men.