When does Cirdan leave ME?

[ASmileThatExplodes]

Yeah, I always wondered that. He leaves ME when the Last Ship departs, but when is that? I also read somewhere that Celeborn sailed the last ship to Valinor, but does Cirdan go with him then?

This confuses me a bit, haha. :')

[Valandil]

Hello Explosive Smile! :) Welcome to Entmoot. We love our members from Belgium!

Offhand, I don't recall if anything is stated about just when Cirdan left. I might guess when Sam left. I get the impression that Legolas left pretty much on his own (with Gimli) - and he didn't go to the Havens, but just built his own ship in Ithilien (with help?) and set sail, after King Elessar died. So I don't imagine that Legolas needed Cirdan's aid, while I think Sam would.

There is some debate about whether Celeborn left at all - or if he just stayed in Middle Earth. I think Cirdan would have certainly gone, though I'm not sure when. My best guess is with Sam. About 60 years after the departure of Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond & Galadriel - and about 60 years before Legolas and Gimli.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

Hello Explosive Smile! :) Welcome to Entmoot. We love our members from Belgium!

Offhand, I don't recall if anything is stated about just when Cirdan left. I might guess when Sam left. I get the impression that Legolas left pretty much on his own (with Gimli) - and he didn't go to the Havens, but just built his own ship in Ithilien (with help?) and set sail, after King Elessar died. So I don't imagine that Legolas needed Cirdan's aid, while I think Sam would.

There is some debate about whether Celeborn left at all - or if he just stayed in Middle Earth. I think Cirdan would have certainly gone, though I'm not sure when. My best guess is with Sam. About 60 years after the departure of Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond & Galadriel - and about 60 years before Legolas and Gimli.
Hehe, thank you! I'm really a newbie here, but I think it's very cool. (: I don't know a lot about Tolkien's works and this really helps. :D

Yeah, with Sam is a good possibility, because when Aragorn dies, Arwen says to him that there isn't a ship anymore to bring her to Valinor.

Mmm.. I think Celeborn sailed to Valinor to see Galadriel again. That sounds likely to me, but I don't know this for sure, hehe. :)

[Galin]

'Last Ship' seems a bit open to interpretation, and possibly this matter is meant to be left a little vague, but Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age arguably implies that 'Last Ship' (or however it's spelled there) refers to the ship that Gandalf, Frodo, Elrond, Galadriel... and so on, sailed on... with Shadowfax. I think the description refers to a 'last ship' and continues with something like: white was that ship and long was it a-building; and long it awaited... something something... generally referring to the events which lead to this notable departure of Middle-Earth (Galadriel and so on).

I think Cirdan sailed then. Why wait? There's a late essay that speaks to his desire to sail West in the First Age; though granted he did wait beyond the end of that Age, so that only goes so far. Anyway I really see no great reason for Celeborn to have stayed forever, and I think certain text implies that not only did he sail (though when was not known specifically), but that with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days. Cirdan should have living memory of the Elder Days... but granted (again) so should Treebeard for example!

Regarding Celeborn, it's also interesting to note Arwen's (or Aragorn's?) reference to the garden(s?) of Rivendell, where none now walk... or something like that, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

... which might raise the Elladan, Elrohir question too :D


Sorry, my books are not handy at the moment for actual quotes, which I know are certainly much better than trying to remember them here.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

Yeah, I also thought about that.. It's logical that Cirdan sailed to Valinor with Elrond and the rest of the ringbearers, but I read somewhere that some people still say that he still lives in the Grey Havens, tough I don't know where exactly I read that. (Sorry for my vague explanation, haha.)

I agree about Celeborn. (: I think he wanted to see his wife again and that he didn't want to stay forever in ME. Maybe he left with the sons of Elrond? Could be true.

[Varnafindë]

Regarding Celeborn, it's also interesting to note Arwen's (or Aragorn's?) reference to the garden(s?) of Rivendell, where none now walk... or something like that, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Aren't those the gardens of Lothlorien, not Rivendell?
(I haven't got my books handy either ...)

[Galin]

Yeah, I also thought about that.. It's logical that Cirdan sailed to Valinor with Elrond and the rest of the ringbearers, but I read somewhere that some people still say that he still lives in the Grey Havens, tough I don't know where exactly I read that. (Sorry for my vague explanation, haha.)

Yes that's from Appendix A, but I'm not sure (at the moment) when this statement was written... I think it was intended to be written by a Hobbit, but even if it's late enough, it might be seen as 'what Hobbits assumed' and (externally), possibly intended as a purposed confusion with the 'last ship' Of The Rings Of Power. I think there's a 'some say...' there too, though Tolkien obviously uses this elsewhere in any case.

There are examples of 'intended variation' or 'purposed confusion', or some better term that explains what I mean (say the competing stories of the Elessar jool for example), and sometimes I think this might be one of them.

Or something ;)

I'll have to check the books again!

Varnafinde, I still think it's Rivendell in the quote I'm thinking of, but yes I'll have to check if someone else doesn't first.

[Galin]

OK, I found an older post of mine. Sorry for the length and some repetition, but here I actually quoted some sources!

I don't see why Cirdan would have stayed to the very last Elf. How could he even know who was surely 'last' (foresight? see below)? Of The Rings Of Power echoes Cirdan's statement to Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings appendices. '... and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I will await thee.'

'Thee' here is Gandalf, but what about this 'last ship'? 'White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. But when all these things were done, and the heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him (...) and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready.'

This ship is the 'last ship' in my opinion, although some appear to have a problem with last because it isn't technically the last ship ever. But then again (Appendix A): '(...) At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sails into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few.'

Hmm, when is 'now' exactly, according to this description? In any event, there is also the element of Cirdan's great desire in the First Age: 'Nonetheless it is said that for love of his kin and allegiance Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for Elwe when he was lost and did not come to the shores to depart from Middle-earth. Thus he forfeited the fulfilment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed Realm and find again there Olwe and his own nearest kin.' JRRT, Cirdan, Last Writings

Cirdan even states: 'I will follow that light [of Eressea], alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.' But he receives a message from the Valar to stay, and obeys, and by implication of his seeming vision (described in the text), this was a message to abide because he would be involved in building Earendil's ship. Of course, if the argument is that Cirdan would surely want to pass Oversea once Earendil's ship was finished and Morgoth defeated, why then stay at the end of the First Age?

The late text concerning Cirdan also notes that: 'From that night onwards Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.' [compare to Appendix B: 'For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.']

So maybe he remained because he knew, even if in some vague way, that he had a role to play in Middle-earthian conflicts to come, and especially in the aiding of Gandalf (ultimately surrendering a Ring of Power to him), and so in the ultimate defeat of Sauron. There is also the implication (although the timing was not known) that when Celeborn sailed: with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days. Cirdan could be said to have had living memory of the Elder Days of course, but was he already gone in any case? And couldn't Treebreard, for instance, also be said to have living memory of the Elder Days?


It's hard to raise a compelling argument here, but again I see no great reason for Cirdan to have desired to await some vague 'last ship' -- awaiting (in theory) the passing of some of the Silvan Elves from Mirkwood or something. But then, as also noted already, one could argue he maybe had a foresight that told him when the 'last Elf' would leave!

That said, I think there is a certain beauty behind the idea of Cirdan remaining for all Elves who would ever seek the Sea. It's a nice concept in itself, and I think its attractiveness is part of what sways interpretations on this issue. I'm sometimes almost swayed there myself, or like to say that both ideas are 'textually possible' so to speak, even if both are not possible internally (that is, obviously he can't both have sailed with Gandalf and remained for every last Elf seeking the West).

But as of today anyway, I still lean a bit toward: Cirdan sailed with Gandalf.

As for the other quote in question, from the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, it was Aragorn who included a reference to the garden of Elrond.

'Lady Undomiel, said Aragorn, 'the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk.'

If that helps any!

[ASmileThatExplodes]

I like the idea more of Cirdan sailing with Gandalf to Valinor, don't really know why exactly... Maybe because Cirdan would lead a very lonely life in the Havens, because the most of his people would be gone then. That touches my soft side, haha. :')

But if Cirdan had sailed with Gandalf to Valinor, Sam would have a problem, don't you think? Sam can't build a boat on his own to sail beyond the Sea, in my opinion, he needs someone's help... But if Cirdan is gone, there's nobody to help him.

Well, we can discuss this over and over, but we will never know this for sure, I think.

[Galin]

I would at least add my opinion that Cirdan himself need not be around for any and all ships to be constructed.

For example, there was a haven in the South from which some of the Elves of Lorien had set sail, and Legolas appears to have had his ship made well enough away from Mithlond. And I think there were craftsmen (Elves) other than Cirdan in Mithlond, perhaps apprentices whom he had instructed for many years.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

I would at least add my opinion that Cirdan himself need not be around for any and all ships to be constructed.

For example, there was a haven in the South from which some of the Elves of Lorien had set sail, and Legolas appears to have had his ship made well enough away from Mithlond. And I think there were craftsmen (Elves) other than Cirdan in Mithlond, perhaps apprentices whom he had instructed for many years.

Yeah, there you have a point. :)

[The Gaffer]

Good thread.

I think the passing to the Fourth Age and the Dominion of Men is important to Cirdan's mission, which would lean towards "with Galadriel, Elrond et al".

I like to think of Cirdan hanging around till all the High Elves had departed, though.

Legolas wasn't a High Elf, of course.

[Earniel]

Welcome, ASmileThatExplodes! (Another Belgian, neat! :))

If Cirdan had left at the same time as the other Ringbearers, someone at the Grey Havens must still have been making boats in the Fourth Age. And crewing them. Even if Legolas built his boat elsewhere, Sam did go to the Grey Havens, and I can't see him making a boat all on his own and then sailing it over the Straight Road either.

If Sam, Celeborn and possibly Elrond's sons still had to have a ship that could take them West, was Cirdan's job really finished after the Ringbearers sailed? So if someone was still building ships in the Grey Havens after their departure, (and so it seems to be) then why not the Shipwright himself? I can't really see Cirdan handing over the job and responsibilities prematurely. My guess, (and personal preference) is that he stayed until all the Eldar had sailed.

[Galin]

(...) If Sam, Celeborn and possibly Elrond's sons still had to have a ship that could take them West, was Cirdan's job really finished after the Ringbearers sailed? So if someone was still building ships in the Grey Havens after their departure, (and so it seems to be) then why not the Shipwright himself? I can't really see Cirdan handing over the job and responsibilities prematurely. My guess, (and personal preference) is that he stayed until all the Eldar had sailed.

But why should it necessarily be Cirdan's 'job' to make every ship?

And if he was an eminent shipmaker he arguably had had a number of apprentices since... well, arguably thousands of years before Frodo's day, which would make them quite experienced at the trade I would think. We even have text (Unfinished Tales) that refers to some Elves who learned the art of shipbuilding at the Grey Havens then went south to the mouth of the Morthond.

I've no problem with your personal preference of course, but need we think Cirdan had taken on the job, or responsibility, in the first place, of making every ship any of the Eldar would ever take West?

[Attalus]

I think we need to consider the Elven attitude toward works of their hands. They seemed to regard them as a continual process, not to be laid down lightly, especially if mastery had been reached. Consider Feanor and his attitude to the Silmarils. Celebrimbor died in defenseof his Rings, and Galadriel continued to weave the Elven-cloth. I very much doubt Cirdan would lay down his appointed task until it was completed, and I feel that Cirdan would have left on the last ship.

[Galin]

OK, but is it stated that Cirdan's appointed task was to make ships for any and all Elves (or Eldar) that would ever leave Middle-earth? And if it isn't noted, I think it's a bit of a speculative jump to say that because Cirdan was a master shipmaker, that this somewhat specific duty (remain until an actual 'last' ship was made and ready) was appointed to him.

I might be forgetting something, but as far as I recall Cirdan was noted as being an eminent shipmaker, but again he wasn't the only ship builder in any case -- emphasis here that others were Elvish too.

[Attalus]

And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. "Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after." "I obey," Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood.
The History of Middle-earth, vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth: "Last Writings - Cirdan," p. 386

[Galin]

The fuller citation reads...


And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. "Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after." "I obey," Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood.

As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship which after apprenticeship to Cirdan, and ever with his advice and help Earendil built, and in which at last he reached the shores of Valinor. From that night onwards Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.'

JRRT, Cirdan


This refers to the building of Vingilot, the making of which, of course, was completed well before Frodo's day.

And in any case, in this citation I don't see the Valar appointing Cirdan the task of abiding in Middle-earth until the very last Elda or Elf sailed West, in order to construct a 'last' ship.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

I agree with Galin. Cirdan would stay in ME for ages, if he needed to wait until every Elf had departed. There are always Elves, for example in Mirkwood, that stay in ME. Maybe Cirdan stayed in ME after the departure of Elrond, but I don't think that he waited until all Elves have sailed to Valinor. That sound a bit, uh... Unreasonable to me. ;p

But that's my opinion. :)

[Attalus]

I suspect he waited until all the High Elves had left or expressed their refusal to leave.

[Telcontar87]

I´m inclined to think that either he left with Gandalf and company, or just a bit later (but not much later)

With Sauron being defeated (last Enemy of elves and men), his foresight would not be of much avail to anyone anymore. And since he wasn´t appointed any task in particular (by that time all elves could build their own boats and find the straight path) he must have felt free to go at last.

As for Sam, I´m not sure he needed CÃ*rdan´s help more than he could have used any other elven shipbuilder´s help in those days.