Elven anatomy

[Taniquetil]

There hath not been a good opinionated discussusion for a while, and I do believe I have found a topic that may begin one; so here it is.

(Yes, I realize that most answers will come from Morgoth's Ring, but I cannot find that book at any of the various surrounding libraries)

Did Elves, in fact, have pointy ears?
Did they have ten fingers or twelve?
Were there any brown-haired elves?
And (most abstractly) Could an elf be overweight? :eek: (I am fully aware of the prophesy of Mandos which states " no illness may assail you," but still...)

Come forth and speak, loremasters.....

[Galin]

Well I'm no loremaster but the study of Quendian ears has interested me, and Elven hair as well, so...

Did Elves, in fact, have pointy ears?

Considering the way you put it, I would have to say not 'in fact' no. Some will shirly quote Etymologies (later 1930s or thereabouts) on this topic, and I might say that Tolkien arguably thought his Quendi had more pointed and leaf-shaped ears than humans at this time -- but I think this was superseded by Words Phrases and Passages (1960 or later for some entries), which I think goes only so far as: some possible connection between leaf-words, listen-words, and ear-words... but what that connection is, if it exists, is not actually stated -- as it seemingly was stated back in the abandoned Etymologies.

In other words, the later entry raises a possible connection, but doesn't say what, if anything in the 'observable world' (so to speak), accounts for the possible connection.

Did they have ten fingers or twelve?

I would say ten... though they could count higher in any case ;)

Were there any brown-haired elves?

Certainly dark brown haired Elves, at least.

hróva and morna

Words, Phrases, Passages (p. 155): 'The Noldor were generally hróva or morna' [these Elvish words are noted] 'morna black of hair: hróva 'dark, dark brown'

In another entry JRRT seemed to think absolute black was not the case (same source): 'The predominant colour of Noldorin hair was very dark brown (no Elf had absolute black hair: morna)' I note here that Tolkien used morna, the word used in the previous citation.

But even if this entry is later than the first, it appears possible that JRRT revised that no Elf was black of hair, as in The Shibboleth of Feanor (dated 1968 or later), for example, Finwe has 'black' hair (note 19). Or concerning Urundil (note 61): 'His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Noldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery red in it.'

[Elf of cave]

I agree with Galin.

Also, Elves and humans are so closely related that they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. So I believe the deversity in hair colour was as great among the Elves as it is in humans.

And (most abstractly) Could an elf be overweight? :eek: (I am fully aware of the prophesy of Mandos which states " no illness may assail you," but still...)

Being overweight can in rare cases be caused by an illness, but mostly it is caused by a bad lifestyle (too much food (especially of the wrong kind) and too little exercise). When you consume more energy than you use, your body will store that energy as fat. I doubt that Elven bodies had a different mechanism for dealing with excess energy; so if an Elf spent all his/her time sitting still and eating too much high calorie and fat food, he/she would get overweight the same as humans.

[Valandil]

:
:
Being overweight can in rare cases be caused by an illness, but mostly it is caused by a bad lifestyle (too much food (especially of the wrong kind) and too little exercise). When you consume more energy than you use, your body will store that energy as fat. I doubt that Elven bodies had a different mechanism for dealing with excess energy; so if an Elf spent all his/her time sitting still and eating too much high calorie and fat food, he/she would get overweight the same as humans.

I've had my suspicions about the Chief Butler and Captain of the Guard in The Hobbit - but I found no textual evidence to support this notion about them.

[Galin]

By the way, here's the passage from Words, Phrases and Passages:

Q lasse 'leaf' (S las); pl. lassi (S lais). It is only applied to certain kinds of leaves, especially those of trees, and would not e.g. be used of leaf of a hyacinth (linque). It is thus possibly related to LAS 'listen', and S-LAS stem of Elvish words for 'ear'; Q hlas, dual hlaru. Sindarin dual lhaw, singular lhewig.

lasse 'leaf'.


Back in Etymologies JRRT wrote similar enough entries (see LAS) and noted a possible relationship there too: 'Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. But then he followed with: 'The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than human'.

As we see, much later it becomes similarly 'possibly related' but with no following statement that actually describes Quendian ears, or no comparison to human ears.


I find it an interesting comparison, but also try to interpret the entry from Words, Phrases and Passages -- whatever it might or might not say about Quendian ears -- without any 'help' from Etymologies here. In other words, try to keep an interpretation of the later work without influence from the earlier description.

[Elf of cave]

I've had my suspicions about the Chief Butler and Captain of the Guard in The Hobbit - but I found no textual evidence to support this notion about them.

Me neither, I am purely speculating. It is possible of course, that all Elves had a high metabolism and therefore did not get overweight. This, though, would be a great disadvantage in times when they would have a large energy expenditure but sources of energy scarce (in times of war for instace), so maybe they were capable of regulating their metabolism to fit the situation...

[Taniquetil]

I've had my suspicions about the Chief Butler and Captain of the Guard in The Hobbit - but I found no textual evidence to support this notion about them.

:) Where is the "like" button on this forum! :)

[Earniel]

Did they have ten fingers or twelve?
Heh, I like that question. :) It does make you wonder, since humans have 10 fingers and use a decimal system, and if Elves count in twelves, what does that mean for their fingers? :D

Yet I think 10 fingers would suffice. In several places where Elves are identified as such, the light in their eyes is mostly mentioned as opposed to humans. Not the possible twelve fingers, nor the pointy ears. One would think those things would be rather noticeable too.

And (most abstractly) Could an elf be overweight? :eek: (I am fully aware of the prophesy of Mandos which states " no illness may assail you," but still...)
My memory is poor, but I think I recall that at least in earlier writings Saeros, the Elf that Túrin chased to his death was at least chubby? Or is that just my mental image of him? I can't recall anymore.

[Willow Oran]

Regarding overweight elves:

Salgant, Lord of the House of the Harp from "The Fall of Gondolin" is described as being heavy and squat. That doesn't necessarily read as overweight, but it strongly implies a body type that might be prone to weight problems.

It's notable that Salgant was also consistently described as craven and faint of heart and always sided with Maeglin before hiding inside his house instead of fighting during the city's fall. Not one of Tolkien's more subtle characterizations...

[Lefty Scaevola]

here is a defininative essay on Elven ears with citations to all relevant text.
http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html
The answer is: You can believe either way you want and no one can disprove you.

[Galin]

Conrad Dunkerson's essay (linked above) is still a bit behind the times however, as the word human is no longer in debate for example...

... but more importantly, the linguistic work Words Phrases and Passages was only published fairly 'recently' in Parma Eldalamberon 17, and the text on LAS- therein (and so on) very arguably supersedes Etymologies in my opinion -- and also I think a 'true interpretation' of WPP, whatever it has to say or not say about Elven ears, should not necessarily be influenced by Etymologies.