A question of life and death

[Taniquetil]

I am probably making way to much out of this, but a passage in the Children of Hurin got me thinking:

At the end of the of Turin's "murder" of Saeros, the wicked elf, it says
"So ended his life in Doriath, and long would Mandos hold him" and later
"I did not will it, but I do not mourn it" said Turin. "May Mandos judge him justly; and if ever he return to the lands of the living, may he prove wiser"
Also we hear that Finrod Felagund "Now walks in the gardens of Lorien in Valinor with his father Finarfin"

Was Tolkien hinting that all elves were eventually reincarnated into the "heaven" of Valinor after a prescribed stay in the "purgatory" of the Halls of Mandos, even if they were not sent back to Middle-Earth such as Glorfindel?

What say the Loremasters?

[Alcuin]

Your answer is in Morgoth’s Ring.

First, in the chapter “Laws and Customs among the Eldar�, there is a section titled, “Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hröa�. The fëa is the spirit of an incarnate (Elf or Man, possibly Dwarf), the hröa the body. Elves were aware that they were possessed of both body and soul, but before they moved to Valinor, the Elves did not know what became of the spirits of their dead. (Morgoth and his servants were killing them near Cuiviénen.)

In Aman they learned that their fëar (plural of fëa) did not end as long as Arda remained, and that their “fate was to inhabit Arda to its end.� (Ibid.) When they died, …they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death and go to the “Halls of Waiting�: Mandos, in the realm of the Valar.

… The length of time they dwelt in Waiting was partly at the will of Námo, the Judge, lord of Mandos, partly at their own will.In this telling, the fëa is reborn to other Elves as a child, and grows again to maturity.

This is revisited in the Appendix to the Chapter “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth� (“The Debate of Finrod and Andreth�). Here, the Valar are explicitly given permission by Eru to “rehouse� the fëar of Elves released from Mandos. (Eru alone retains the right to give Elves complete rebirth, the idea presented in “Laws and Customs�.) Since the bodies of Finrod and Glorfindel remained in Middle-earth after they died, we can suppose that they were “rehoused� by the Valar after a time of Waiting in the Halls of Mandos.

For Glorfindel, this Waiting resulted in a purging of the sin and evil of his first life, so that when he was “rehoused�, he was nearly as powerful as a Maia. This is discussed in MR, “Last Writings�, “Glorfindel�, which also covers matters regarding the reincarnation of Elves.

[EllethValatari]

Does it not mean that they are, in a way, judged by Mandos, and then either live in the lands of the dead or in Valinor?

The gardens of Lorien are a repetition of the common archetype of a perfect land, or Garden of Eden, as found in Christian belief.

[Alcuin]

Does it not mean that they are, in a way, judged by Mandos, and then either live in the lands of the dead or in Valinor?

The gardens of Lorien are a repetition of the common archetype of a perfect land, or Garden of Eden, as found in Christian belief.I don’t understand what you mean by “lands of the deadâ€�. The Halls of Mandos were the Halls of Waiting, where the spirits of the Elves considered their lives, their deeds, and the outcomes of their actions. It was a place for them to purify themselves before returning to embodiment, if they desired it. Some of them did not: MÃ*riel, the mother of Fëanor, wanted to die outright and leave Arda; some Eldar upon reflection considered this an effect of the evil will of Morgoth on Arda. Fëanor, the greatest of all the Eldar, was not permitted to return to walk among the living: his deeds were too evil: for him, Mandos was a prison. For others, it was no doubt a place of rest.

Námo Mandos was indeed a judge of the Elves. He must have had a full docket during the First Age!

I understand your comparison of the gardens of Lórien to the Garden of Eden, but I think that the gardens of Paradise – a place for the departed – is more appropriate than a place of beginning. For the Elves, Cuiviénen would have been their Eden, and Morgoth and his servants their serpents.

[Galin]

Incidentally the idea that Elves were reborn as children was abandoned by JRRT.

It raised too many problems for him, though it was a long-held idea. Tolkien ultimately went with: restoration by the Valar.


'It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this restoration could be delayed* by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.' JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II

*Or in the gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) witheld and referred to the One.' Author's footnote

[Taniquetil]

Thanks to all for their input! Very interesting stuff! Especially so the fact that in this area, it seems that The One-Illuvatar- seems to have a much more active role.
Being Catholic as he was, I believe it is highly likely that we strike near the original intent of JRRT when we say that Cuinvinen was the Elves Eden, Morgoth their serpent, Mandos their purgatory, and Lorien in Valinor a sort of heaven on earth.

See you all the next time I come up with another random and slightly naive observation about one of Tolkien's works!

[ASmileThatExplodes]

Incidentally the idea that Elves were reborn as children was abandoned by JRRT.

It raised too many problems for him, though it was a long-held idea. Tolkien ultimately went with: restoration by the Valar.


'It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this restoration could be delayed* by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.' JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II

*Or in the gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) witheld and referred to the One.' Author's footnote
Oh, that answers a LOT of questions! So the Elves died and went to the Halls of Mandos and after a while, they came back in the same body, with the same parents, the same family, etc.? That would be lovely! I don't like the idea of a total Rebirth, because parents wouldn't be able to see their children like they were again. That hurts my little heart, haha. But did Tolkien really state that the idea of a total Rebirth was too difficult? I haven't read it anywhere else.

[Galin]

(...) But did Tolkien really state that the idea of a total Rebirth was too difficult? I haven't read it anywhere else.

He really did :D

The notion might have remained as part of the legends, given the end of the following citation, but in any case it was to be imagined as a false notion, thus not true internally, if so.

17 [My father here discussed again the idea that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by 'rebirth' as a child, and rejected it as emphatically as he had done in the discussion called 'Reincarnation of Elves', X. 363 -4; here as there the physical and physcological difficulties were addressed. He wrote that the idea 'must be abandoned, or at least noted as a false notion, e.g. probably of Mannish origin, since nearly all the matter of The Silmarillion is contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands and minds, and are (in many points) plainly influenced by contact and confusion with the myths, theories, and legends of Men' (cf. p. 357, note 17) (...)'

Last Writings, note 17


Christopher Tolkien is here also referring to Morgoth's Ring, where however he did not actually reproduce the 'hastily written manuscript on small slips of paper entitled 'Reincarnation of Elves' but rather described that his father referred, 'in rapid and elliptical expression', to the difficulties at every level, including practical and psychological -- with the 'most fatal objection' being noted: 'it contradicts the fundamental notion that fea and hroa were each fitted to the other: since hroar have a physical descent, the body of rebirth, having different parents, must be different', and this must be a condition of pain to the newborn fea.'

So a long-held idea, ultimately rejected; as far as can be determined by the existing writings anyway.