Shelob and the Ring

[Menelvagor]

Hello all! The server informs me that I haven't visited the Entmoot since 2006, but I was rereading LotR recently and a new discussion question occurred to me that it seemed only you fine folks would appreciate.

The question is this: what would have happened if Shelob had eaten Frodo, Ring and all? Shelob is the descendant of Ungoliant, who was capable of destroying the Two Trees and (it is implied) a Silmaril. Surely, even if Ungoliant-spawn have decreased in power over the years, one could still destroy the Ring, which is, after all, presumably a less potent item than the Two Trees themselves and the Silmarils? I don't think you can argue that the Ring specifically needs to be melted, since Ungoliant could apparently consume whole gemstones easily. Could the quest have ended, albeit in a saddening and unsatisfying way, in Shelob's Lair?

[Varnafindë]

Good question!

I'm not so sure, though, that Ungoliant could have destroyed the Silmarils.
She meant to eat them, yes, but would they have been destroyed?
That wolf who ate one, was burned inside - he didn't eat other jewels the way she did, though.

What exactly do you think implies that she would have destroyed it?

[Menelvagor]

Well, once she consumed the light of the trees they were gone forever, which seems to imply that they were actually destroyed, and the Silmarils' power is based on their containing the light of the trees, so it stands to reason that if she could destroy the one, she could destroy the other, unless we think that Feanor did something extra to make the Silmarils more resilient (possible, but I can't think of any evidence for this).

Having thought about it more, though, (and remembered my Silmarillion a bit better) Ungoliant gained power from consuming the trees- that was why she was powerful enough to trap Melkor when he withheld the Silmaril- so it would probably be a very bad idea to let Shelob get ahold of the Ring. It might be effectively giving the power of the Ring to her, and then you'd have a giant, terrifying spider as a dark overlord instead of Sauron. Although the battle between the two, once Sauron found out, would probably be pretty epic.

[Valandil]

Yes - maybe Sauron would only be able to destroy her by casting her into Mount Doom - unknowingly sealing his own destruction.

He could even get the great eagles to carry her there and drop her in. :p ;) Or maybe the winged steeds of the Nazgul.

Actually though - this is all interesting. Would Shelob's digestive system have broken down the Ring? Or would it have passed through? Similarly with Ungoliant and a Silmaril.

[Nautipus]

I believe a dissection is in order. ;)

[Alcuin]

Gollum’s interest in delivering Frodo and Sam to Shelob was that Shelob would discard the corpses and the Ring when she was done with them.

Although Shelob was not a true spider (order Araneae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider)), like Ungoliant she was in spider-form and did most things in a spider-like way. One of the things I have always understood that she did was not consumer her prey but rather “pump digestive enzymes from the midgut into the prey and then suck the liquified tissues of the prey into the gut, eventually leaving behind the empty husk of the prey.” (Delightful, no? reference here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider#Feeding.2C_digestion_and_excretion).)

That would relieve Gollum of scrutinizing spider scat to scavenge the scraps.

[elrosofbc2010]

I haven't revisited Ungoliant in a *long* time, so what I'm about to say may be totally off base, but... I was always under the impression that what allowed Ungoliant to successfully sap the life from the trees was precisely that - life. It was about the juxtaposition of what the trees were (light) and represented (life) with what Ungoliant was (darkness) and represented (death). As she and Melkor are escaping, she covers their escape with an *impenetrable* darkness. It seems to me that the scene does not imply that she was so powerful that she could destroy anything so much as it implies that she was the counterbalance to the trees and it was her position as opposite that allowed her to destroy them.

This being said, I don't get the feeling that Shelob would have been able to destroy the ring through consumption. As above, I feel it is a case of opposites - were the ring to be a representation of light, or life, perhaps. But, as it is itself a tool of darkness, I don't think she could do much with it.

[GrayMouser]

I believe a dissection is in order. ;)

You go right ahead. I'll stand in the back and pass you the scalpel.

[Metus_of_Morgul]

How did even Gollum came to an agreement with that *thing* and how was he so sure she would agree to give him anything,she is a creature of darkness so she would cheat him while he turns around,even tho there is nothing much to suck out of that one,but still...she sometimes eats even orcs when there is nothing better on the menu...I think she would like the shiny ring but not eat it,nah she is not her grandmother or whatever was Ungoliant to her. She would guard it like some relic,the war would be lost (for the free people) and the ring forgotten and hidden like it was ages before,after some time Sauron would like to pay a visit to his old friend and would find the ring...or not.

[Alcuin]

How did even Gollum came to an agreement with that *thing* and how was he so sure she would agree to give him anything,she is a creature of darkness so she would cheat him while he turns around,...
This passage is elided from “Shelob’s Lair” in Two Towers:...[Y]ears before, Gollum had beheld [Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant], ... and ... he had bowed and worshipped her. ... [H]e had promised to bring her food. ... Little she knew of ... anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body. ...

...[N]o Elf or Man came near [her lair], only ... Orcs. ... But she lusted for sweeter meat. And Gollum had brought it to her.
“We’ll see, we’ll see,” he said often to himself, … “... It may well be, ... that when She throws away the bones ... we shall find ... the Precious...”