The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever

[juntel]

Anyone read these two trilogies? Any comments? I loved the first trilogy more; in fact, it's the first work of fantasy that I ever read, when I was at University in 1984. (The ONLY other fantasy saga I read was Tolkien's. I read nothing else in Fantasy.) Although Covenant's whinnings are annoying, this work was quite moving, very rich in its writing and description of characters. Many hate this work. Others like it a lot. Seldom saw grey areas in opinions about it...

[emilsson]

I´ve only read the first book and I do not remember much. One thing I do recall is that I thought it was too much like the Lord of Rings. So I did not read the other ones. Perhaps I should give them another chance. :)

[anduin]

I have found that most fantasy I read reminds me somehow of LOTR. Usually the problem is, it doesn't live up to it. Once I remember that Tolkien basically invented the fantasy genre, it makes it easier to continue. :)

[sarmis Pug]

I liked the second trilogy better, as he developed some of his own ideas. The first three, imho, were too derivative of LotR.

[Loopy]

I've heard good things about them. I haven't read them yet, but they're on my list.

(my list of stuff to read is getting way too long)

[juntel]

Donaldson said if he made a third trilogy, it would really be the last, and Covenant would now take on the role played by Lord Foul... That would be quite weird. Hope he writes it!

[The Randy Hobbit]

The end of the first trilogy made me swear off Donaldson forever. What a let down! Made me think Disney.

[juntel]

Hmmm... I'd like you to expand on that thought.
The first trilogy didn't end in a so goody-goody way.

The "bad guy" does die as such.
The "good guy" isn't miraculously healed.
The people of the Land are throwing away the only way
they knew how to live, to try finding a new one.

Not Disney at all.

Ok, it's long winded and cryptic, but not Disney.

[The Randy Hobbit]

I was speaking of the way in which they defeated Foul (such an original name for an Evil Tyrant!) I would normally not give away the ending of a book in a post but I am about to. If you haven't read them and wish to be suprised, as I assure you I was, don't read any further.

THEY LAUGHED HIM TO DEATH! Come on! "If everyone can just be happy, it will defeat the evil one! He thrives on unhappiness! If we all just chuckle he will weaken him! And if we can all clap our hands Tinkerbell will come back to life!" I'm sorry. I loved the world, well thought out with interesting races and history, but he gave up at the end, IMHO. Very Sad Ending. TRH

[juntel]

Firstly, there was a typo in my last post. It should read: "doesn't die as such".

They did ask Covenant to destroy Foul (yes, Donaldson had a weird way to name things, sometimes anglo-saxon, sometimes clearly Hindu); they asked him to kill the "bad guy".
But he didn't.
Covenant replied that Foul couldn't be killed, that "he" always came back, somehow.
Don't forget that Covenant isn't still sure of the reality of that world, he thinks that world and all its inhabitants are somehow a product of his imagination, including Foul. For him, killing Foul makes as much sense as killing himself.
Also, more importantly, asking the "ghosts" and Foamfollower to laugh is Covenant's way of NOT being the big hero YOU and THEM wanted him to be!
A lame ending? Well, an ending that suits well the anti-hero that is Covenant.
You wanted him to be the big Foul-slayer, as the "ghosts" (Kevin, Berek, etc) wanted him to be the great hero they always had wanted him to be. But he didn't give up, for the sake of his sanity, for the sake of his real life.
So, they didn't laughed Foul to death. He just regressed to his infancy, and then to oblivion.
Covenant himself knows at the end that Foul isn't gone for good, but at least is gone for a long time.

I hope this clears things up a bit. Otherwise, so be it. It's just another story!
(BTW, the second trilogy would irritate you more! I myself didn't like it as much as the first. And the ending... well, of course the "bad guy" loses again... but that ain't the point of Donaldson's stories...)

[juntel]

Sent you an icq recently...
My cold clearing out...

[anduin]

Juntel!!! Where have you been hiding? ;)

[Gilthalion]

Now this started out fairly well, and I remember thinking, "Not as good as Tolkien, but not bad."

I didn't finish the second trilogy. I just got bored, which is unusual for me, once I've invested in 4 or 5 books. I gave them away.

Really though, it did start well and as a first trilogy was not bad at all.

[juntel]

Donaldson's long-windedness doesn't always help him.

I did learn many more english words and expressions reading him though!

Haven't read his 4 or 5 parts SF series, "The Gap"; I heard it was well built as a story: the first book practically tells all the story, then the successive books, in turn, dissect in their own ways that original story, letting us see everything "behind" the apparences.

[Gilthalion]

That does sound interesting! Donaldson has the tools to tell a good story...

[Ensor]

Apart from the fact he'd take 3 days to explain eating his breakfast (the word melodrama springs to mind), Donaldson is rewarding as a novelist. I'm on my 3rd of the first tril., all is going well, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

I ignored the earlier posts about the ending so it wouldn't spoil things for me!

Also reading Goodkind right now, and the difference is unbelievable. Goodkind is alright, but as far as authorship goes, Donaldson is far better. It's like reading a Mills and Boons book with Goodkind sometimes. His handling of romance is DIABOLICAL. Still, good storyteller.

[Earendilyon]

I think the trilogies are great!

I've no time now to answer the question in full though, cos my lunch is waiting to be eaten ;)

[Earendilyon]

I'm back! ;)

Psychologically speaking, the Chronicles are the best fantasy series I've read so far (be real guys: Tolkien's characters have not that much psychological depth). On the whole, they are my favorites right behind Tolkien's writings.

[Earendilyon]

Btw, for all you TCC fans out there: here's a MB for Covenant discussion. (http://www.kevinswatch.com/)

[juntel]

Holy Shiite!

thanks for that board... will look on it...

[Earendilyon]

The board named above (Kevin's Watch is the name btw) has now also discussion forums on other Donaldson writings, to wit the Mordant's Need and the Gap series.

[Fairy Starr]

Hmm. Why do so many of you think that the Covenant books are so much like Tolkiens? I liked Tolkien but his writing is definitely a little dry. Donaldson does a lot more w/ developing his characters and letting you get involved with them as you read. I read both the 1rst and 2nd trilogy and I was very impressed w/ both of them and enjoyed them very much. I hope he does write a 3rd one.

[juntel]

character development is different with both authors, of course...

but in many details, there are similarities, which of course may be due that both dig into much older tales already:

- ring of power
- "pyrotechnic" staves!
- the bad dude is quasi invisible, is after the ring, and lives in a "dark" mountain.
- ur-viles~=~orcs
- a long march of a fellowship to confront the bad dude

of course each of these have their differences in each story, but the similarities are nevertheless there...

and as you hinted at, we can be more attached to the characters than those little details... and you won't find a character like Covenant in LotR!

(Gandalf is not actually mirrored in the Covenant series - unless you consider Mhoram as the gandalf-like character, but I wouldn't do that)

[Earendilyon]

According to some ppl over at Kevinswatch.com is SRD planning to write a third series, called The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. How much of that is true, and whether it will ever be written, is SRD's secret.

[juntel]

A few years ago, SRD denied he was on a 3rd series...

But of course, since then he might have changed his mind...

[Gez1]

Why must every fantasy book be compared to Tolkien? I think that nobody will ever write like him but that doesn't mean that Fantasy is dead just because HE is:) Covenent is a modern day man (albeit one with unusual problems) thrown into a world he just can't understand. He tries to apply modern day ethics to a world that doesn't accept his views at all. I think of them as "What If" books. I liked all of them!

[ringbearer]

As some of you stated...I enjoyed the first series and got bored with the second. The thing I liked best about Covenant was the fact that he was from our world and each book would end with his returning. Also, that he was a leper in our world and not in the fantasy world...was a cool part of the story!

[juntel]

well, he was still a leper when coming into the Land, but there was some kind of healing mud that would make it go away and give him back nerve sensitivity... which drove him mad, and was a "proof" for him that it was all a dream...

and if i remember correctly, in The Power That Preserves, his leprosy was still with him (not enough heartloam for healing).

[Elwen]

Do read Mordant's Need, it's only 2 books long and is a great story. Starts with "The Mirror of her Dreams and goes on to "A Man Rides through". It's about a New York (i think) woman who is drawn into a fantasy world by a sweet but rather clumsy magician in the hope that she will be able to save his world. The characters are much more sympathetic than the lot in the Covernant or Gap series. Just a recomendation :)

[Putz0999]

I have read the Thomas Covenant series 8 or 9 times (all 6 of them). I put this series on my personal top 10 list.

Mr. Donaldson has a way of drawing the reader in and making us part of the story. The slaughter of the Giants is a heart wrenching bit of writing. Many authors can tell a tale, but few achieve the raw horror of this scene. I read this chapter to my 11 year old daughter and she burst into tears thinking about the anguish of the Giants. She has begun reading the series now.

The sandgorgon (Nom) is a particularly interesting critter too.

I have read all his other works also. I found the Gap series to be quite good.

I think he should NOT publish another Covenant trilogy. Let the story end instead of beating it to mush. Too much of a good thing is not always best.

Enjoy...

Putz

[Lenya]

Personally, I did not enjoy the series. I think it is because Thomas is not a very likable character and I feel he spoils the story. I do however believe that Donaldson did a good job with the landscapes and the other creatures.

[juntel]

Well, Covenant isn't our typical hero: he doesn't want to fully 'play the game' in this fantasy world.
Not only doesn't he know how to use the power the people of the Land tell him he has, he also might not want to use it if he knew, since for him all this is a dangerous dream/illusion that gives him power, sensations, purpose, hope; whereas the REAL world (the one he and you and I live in) refuses him all of that.

There lies the 'fundamental question of ethics' he was confronted with by the old beggar before he fell unconscious and found himself into the Land.

So he refuses to help when he is asked to, rather than be the hero any fantasy novel would expect him to be.
And when he does try to help, he fumbles, with dire consequences for the Land.

Likeable? He is not supposed to be.
He's a rapist after all...

[BeardofPants]

Woah.... it's a dinosaur 'mooter! :eek: ;)

I understand what you're saying, Juntel, and yes, it should make the story more appealing to me because it's not the same-old-same-old trite fantasy hogwash, but I honestly can't stand the writing style, let alone the grumpy arse of a protagonist. Besides, any "original" aspects of the 'hero' are completely ruined by the sheer un-originality of the plot.

[Fat middle]

*waves to juntel*

Hey! good to see you again! :)

*sees topic*

Sorry I have nothing to say on topic. Just couldn't help greeting an old friend.:p

[Wayfarer]

It should be known that I have a very, very broad tastes in literature and can enjoy pretty much anything, and at any given time I could probably think up a dozen different suggestions if you asked me. I have quite a long list of of books which I have enjoyed and think other people would enjoy as well. Stephen R. Donaldson, however, is not on that list.

I also have a very, very, very short blacklist of authors which I refuse to touch and denounce to others whenever they are brought up. That is the list Donaldson gets put on.

[BeardofPants]

*agrees with wayfarer*

*wonders if hell is freezing over*

[Wayfarer]

No you don't. I forbid it.

[BeardofPants]

Hmmm.... I am torn between the sheer pig-headed delight in disobeying your command, and concern that if I *did* agree with you it might make a permanent tear in the time-space continuum... Hmmm.... decisions....

[Wayfarer]

Meh. It's not like the time-space continuium hasn't been broken before. Besides, a tear in time-space can be abused to do all sorts of fun stuff. :evil:

[BeardofPants]

*BoP reaches for the mind-bleach*

There's just some things that shouldn't even be considered, shannon, and that might be one of 'em.... Reading the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant might be the other.;)

[Wayfarer]

o.O What on earth are you thinking of?

[Lenya]

Well, Covenant isn't our typical hero: he doesn't want to fully 'play the game' in this fantasy world.
Not only doesn't he know how to use the power the people of the Land tell him he has, he also might not want to use it if he knew, since for him all this is a dangerous dream/illusion that gives him power, sensations, purpose, hope; whereas the REAL world (the one he and you and I live in) refuses him all of that.

There lies the 'fundamental question of ethics' he was confronted with by the old beggar before he fell unconscious and found himself into the Land.

So he refuses to help when he is asked to, rather than be the hero any fantasy novel would expect him to be.
And when he does try to help, he fumbles, with dire consequences for the Land.

Likeable? He is not supposed to be.
He's a rapist after all...

I know, that's why I don't like the story.

[juntel]

Understandable.