Valar vs Sauron

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

The Valar took an active role in the war against Morgoth but why did they only send the Ishtar to help the elves and others in the fight against Sauron and took no other formal action?

[Varnafindë]

They waited long enough before taking any active role in the war against Morgoth ...

I've seen a discussion on some other board saying that perhaps they didn't go themselves even against Morgoth, but only sent Maiar and Elves (Vanyar and probably some remaining Noldor).

[Earniel]

And at that point they had renounced leadership over Arda (they did this right before the sinking of Númenor, If I remember correctly.). That has to have consequences as to what they were allowed to do in mortal lands.

[Amael]

And things in the Third Age had never gotten near as terrible as they were in the First Age. Even if they could intervene, it may not have been a good idea, and would have denied Gondor of a King who proved himself to be the King first. And the Valar wouldn't want to send the wrong example, I'm sure. Example set would have been, hey, we'll help you out when the going gets rough, no need for you little people on Arda to do anything about it, just endure for a while and we'll be around! :D

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Also by that time they finally comprehended that the evil of Morgoth was bound up with all of Arda and could not be fully amended until the final end.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Ainur seemed to have a limited supply of creative energy that they expended whenever they acted in the physical world. They litteraly were putting pieces of their own existance into Arda as they created it, and other activities involving phsical existence or action seems to also use it up. After the first age, when they had little reserve left (apparently not enough to deal with Ar-Pharazon's invasion of Aman) they prefered to act through couseling Incarnates, which seems to used less of their remaining selves.
Note that Melkor/Morgoth was at one point as powerful as all the other Valar combined, but he so expended himself with his activities that Manwe was antonished with how diminsihed he was at the end of the War of Wrath. One of the theories of Sauron's motivations to make the great rings was that they gave him a means to exercised power over multitudes without using up his existence as Morgoth had done.

[Alcuin]

Manwë and the rest of the Valar remained quite interested in the affairs of Middle-earth. They did not much interfere with Elves in Middle-earth, and even less with Men; however, they remained engaged (that was their mandate from Eru), and sending the Istari (no h in Istari; Ishtar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar) was a Babylonian fertility goddess), or Wizards, was their way of dealing with Sauron.

From Unfinished Tales, “The Istari”, pp 395-396: Manwë … even in the Third Age … was … not a mere observer. … Manwë will not descend from [Taniquetil] until Dagor Dagorath [the final apocalyptic battle at the end of Arda], when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more?...

Leading the Elves out of Middle-earth to Valinor (the Great Journey) was later recognized as an error, or at least a less-than-optimal decision. The Valar did this to protect the Elves, but it created a growing gulf between the Elder and Second kindreds (i.e., Elves and Men). In dealing with Sauron and the Númenórean invasion fleet sent against Valinor by Ar-Pharazôn at the end of the Second Age, “the Valar laid down their government of Arda” (Silmarillion, “Akallabêth”, p 334 DelRay paperback), and Eru destroyed Númenor while sparing Elendil and his sons and followers.

Given these two precedents, it is little surprise that the Valar took a more cautious approach to dealing with Men in regards to dealing with Sauron in the Third Age. Whether Sauron recognized this or not is arguable: in Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, past (iii), VII, “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”, (i), p. 397
Sauron … probably deluded himself with the notion that … Eru had simply abandoned … Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. [He] imagined [the Istari] as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and ‘colonize’ Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). [Sauron] (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own…Tolkien was a devout Catholic and thoroughly familiar with scripture. Compare that to Psalm 50:21 (New American Standard Bible), These things you have done and I kept silence;
You thought that I was just like you;
I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes.Also consider this statement from Gandalf in FotR, “Council of Elrond” (p 262 in the one-volume 1997 LotR), which expresses the very same thinking, a line of reason of which Gandalf was well aware, along with its inherent weakness: For [Sauron] is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts.

-|-

The Ainur seemed to have a limited supply of creative energy that they expended whenever they acted in the physical world.From “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”, (iii), p. 401:The Valar ‘fade’ and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change…
Melkor was much like Manwë in native power. In Silmarillion, “Ainulindalë”, p 4, Tolkien says, Melkor ... had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.. In “Valaquenta”, p 16: Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.

But in “Myths Transformed”, VI, “Melkor Morgoth”, p. 390, as you suggest, Lefty Scaevola,Melkor [was the] greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power). He was to make/devise/begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.Later, when the Valar extracted Morgoth from Utumno (p. 391), Manwë at last faces Melkor again… Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person, Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë…

(Yeah, I did spend an awful long time looking up and retyping all this stuff. Bad Columbus Day. And why can I not embed using vBulletin code IMG? )

[rendaw1]

Sauron was a Maia power after Valar in the beginning, the ring was even stronger, so that any difference between any of the Valar like Irmo and not Sauron. Sauron was able to "win" the Valar, Elves and men, but his fall he brought himself, viz. Tolkien's letters.

[Wilhelm]

It seems like there is some rule against direct interference by Valar or Maiar come the 3rd age - it could be related to the destruction of Numenor and the reshaping of the world by Eru (just a personal theory without basis).

The Istari (who are Maiar) were forbidden to interfere directly with Sauron.

From Appendix B of LOTR
"When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear."

We can infer that if the Istari/Maiar are not permitted to interfere directly there could be a similar mandate affecting the Valar. :mad:


Rendaw1 - I do not follow what you're saying.

[Valandil]

Hi Wilhelm. :)

I don't know if I would infer from what the Valar told the Istari not to do, that it was something the Valar were also forbidden to do.

However, I think there was some kind of limit on the interference of the Valar. It might have been self-imposed. Or - it might be, as you suggest, that this was due to their 'laying down their authority and calling upon Eru' when the Numenoreans sailed to Valinor. When I first read that, I sort of thought it was something they did for that moment, and then went back to being as they had been before. But I have heard it suggested by someone else that this was a bigger change for them - that they laid down this authority forevermore.

[Wilhelm]

Hi Valandil,

We agree that the Valar are operating under some limited interference rules in the 3rd age. :o

You are correct that I am theorizing that the limits placed upon the Istari are based on a similar limit the Valar are operating under and you are correct to be question the inference I am drawing (it is based in theory). It is through dialogue like this we may all better understand some of the more obscure and less fleshed out aspects of JRRs work. Good stuff. :D

I still like my theory and inferences that I am drawing. I do think it's a sound theory. But theory nevertheless. It does make sense that if the "boss" (Valar in this case) have limits (self-imposed or otherwise) that they would push those limits down to their "subordinates" (Maiar/Istari in this case). Otherwise the limits are meaningless. They could always find someone else to do their "dirty work" and keep their hands clean. That said, the limits on the Istari could be more severe than (but shouldn't be less) that the limits the Valar are operating under. :cool:

The idea of Eru imposed limits is a common idea as well but, I don't know if we could find confirmation of such in any of the books. :confused:

Great discussion! :)

[Valandil]

Yes, you can certainly hold to your theory (and yes - it's fun to talk about these things). But to me, if the Valar were 'not allowed' to directly interfere with Sauron, it seems like it would go without saying that the Istari could not do so either. The fact that the Valar laid out such a provision, indicates to me that it was within the realm of possibility for them, but they were forbidding the Istari to do it.

Frankly, I think it was more self-imposed. And I wonder if they just no longer had the energy, or the will, or the empathy for those left on Middle Earth. Maybe not even that much power anymore. They had spent the whole Second Age not interfering with Sauron (or anything else in Middle Earth). What would lead them to interfere in the Third Age?

And - the results of their actions at the end of the First Age, when they did intervene with Morgoth, were dramatic - and widely destructive. If they acted similarly in the Third Age, maybe all of Mordor would have become a sea, and maybe everything south of the White Mountains (Gondor) as well. The Falls of Rauros may have dropped right into the ocean!

I think it was just about general inactiveness of the Valar at any time beyond the end of the First Age and the start of the Second.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Valar put Eonwe against Melkor. Melkor is stronger than Sauron. Eonwe is stronger than the Istari. Therefore they put the Istari against Sauron. Mithrandir (amongst others) defeats Sauron. With every age, beings become weaker.

That is the law of the land. Game over.

[Wilhelm]

Hi Valandil - Good point. The cost of their direct interference is indeed high. It seems when Valar, or even Maiar, clash there is an effect on physical middle earth (also possibly supported by the mountain side collapse brought on by the battle between Gandalf and the Balrog). This kind of destruction could make them shy away from direct interference without the need for a set of rules imposed by Eru (I may be coming around to your point of view).

Ultimately, rules, reluctance, or indifference - it doesn't really matter, the end result is the same: They chose not to interfere and the driving force behind that decision has not been provided by the author. This leaves us, JRRs fans, trying to reconcile the missing pieces based on trends, histories and personal bias and this board provides a great avenue for us to hash these things out.

In most mythologies, divine beings tend to avoid interfering directly in the affairs of mortals and only do so at exceptional times or through subtle means (and mortals typically don't know why). Come the 3rd age, Middle Earth may be no different.

Hi AndMorgothCame - Yes, beings are becoming weaker through the ages but, I don't know if that applies to the Valar or Maiar. The Valar did not send Eonwe - he could be every bit as powerful as he was in the first age. They opted to send different Maiar with a different agenda. By sending Olorin (Gandalf) they seem to have foreseen a need for wisdom. It appears to be a more subtle approach in the 3rd age.

[AndMorgothCame.]

I agree with you Wilhelm, but Eonwe was the Herald of War for Manwe. I think it is undeniable that he is a Maiar of much higher degree than Olorin, and that is all I meant: You send a weaker (perhaps more subtle) force, to deal with a weaker nemesis.

[Wilhelm]

I think it is undeniable that he is a Maiar of much higher degree than Olorin

I agree: Eonwe is very likely the most powerful Maiar - he is certainly the "greatest of arms in Arda" (quote from the Silmarillion). Interestingly, as a Maiar he is of a lower degree than the Valar but, in the use of weapons he surpassed them. There is no denying the stature of Eonwe in skill at arms.

I can't remember where I read it but, I seem to recall the Olorin was counted as the wisest of all the Maiar (not just the Istari). Olorin's "power" is directed in a very different direction than Eonwe's. Wisdom vs War. That said - I still don't think he was as powerful as Eonwe (probably not even close).

I don't think the issue is about Sauron being weaker than Morgoth. It's about letting the people of Middle Earth learn to deal with their own affairs and the Valar's reluctance to take a direct role (as discussed above). The Istari were supposed to provide guidance and advice to the people of Middle Earth - they were not supposed to interfere directly (Saruman did and was punished for it). As the wisest, Gandalf was the best counselor and had the most success in guiding the people of Middle Earth to defeat Sauron.

It was Gandalf's designs (wisdom) not his direct actions that beat Sauron. By contrast Eonwe led an army straight to the Gates of Angband in order to defeat Morgoth.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Agreed. Different actions, same outcome.

An interesting side note as well, that, throughout the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien is constantly taking the time to have Gandalf "stop and think", or "stop and close his eyes", or "stare off into the East (or West)", always in some deep thought. A small attribute that really adds to his character traits in the end.

[Wilhelm]

Tolkien is constantly taking the time to have Gandalf "stop and think", or "stop and close his eyes", or "stare off into the East (or West)", always in some deep thought. A small attribute that really adds to his character traits in the end.

That and looking tired (leaning on his staff, standing bent over, etc...) add depth. Some of the time he is thinking, some of the time he is resting - I can't help but wonder if some of the time he might be invoking a divine power (casting a spell if you prefer) when he does that sort of thing.

These actions provide great contrast to those rare moments when he stands up, sheds the robes and reveals some of what actually lies beneath (facing the Balrog, freeing Theoden...)