Beren and the Silmaril

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I was sitting at work today thinking about the Silmarils when a question came to mind. The Silmarils were hallowed by Varda so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them. Yet, in the chapter titled "Of Beren and Luthien", it states that "he drew forth the knife Angrist: and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril. As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp: but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not." If no mortals could touch the Silmarils, then how was Beren able to touch one and not be burned by it?

[AndMorgothCame.]

Sorry to see no one helped you out with this one, Belwen. I will have a go at it.

If you are quoting the book exactly, which it seems you are, I would say that Tolkien at one point was thinking the same as you, and therefore he wrote: "It suffered his touch and hurt him not." So as to justify the 'mortal flesh' rule. The one point I can come up with is that he was among a descended Maiar (Luthien), and they had the favor of divinity on their side.
Both Luthien and Beren acted above all laws of Middle Earth, since nothing seemed to hinder them, and not going after the jewel in greed, but rather love, he was allowed to carry it. They were motivated above the Doom of Mandos, the Doom of the Noldor, and the Oath of Feanor. They were motivated out of love.

I don't know. Whaddya think?

[jammi567]

Either that, or Eru planned for that to be allowed, as it ultimatly helped to defeat Morgoth in the end, by allowing that guy to reach Valinor.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Thats kind of a broad statement, Jammi. Eru could have planned everything, or rather, the way I like to think, he gave free will to all, though still subtly governing certain devices of Ea. Did Eru already know all of this was going to happen? The questions can keep being asked, and keep being left as unanswerable.

Even though he did at first fill the void, he did not create the trees, he did not create the Silmarils, and he did not hallow them. Though he is omnipotent, I think he left this tale and its treachery up to the barers of the burden.

[Alcuin]

Beren and Lúthien were both dead when they reached Valinor. Beren died in Doriath, slain by Carcharoth; Lúthien bade him wait for her in the Halls of Mandos. When Beren arrived in Mandos, he refused to leave Arda – apparently something no Man had ever before been able to do. Lúthien died of grief (Elves do not die of disease or old age, but they may die of wounds or grief, a kind of spiritual or psychological wounding) and there put forward their situation before Námo Mandos and moved him to pity, who was never before moved, and who brought their case came before Manwë and all the Valar. Beren and Lúthien were decidedly not the usual circumstance.

The Silmarils, however, are themselves sentient. Not the silma, the stuff of which they are made, but the light within them, the living light of the Two Trees. They burned Morgoth when he murdered Finwë and stole them; they burned Maedhros and Maglor, who could not tolerate them, disposed of them, and perished. The Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien took tolerated Beren and Lúthien both; burned Carcharoth into madness, even literally burning the inside of his body; but tolerated Dior EluchÃ*l, Elwing, and Eärendil.

Now, Beren was mortal, and his son Dior EluchÃ*l was fully mortal. (If he was not, then Elwing was not Half-elven, but three-quarter Elven; and Elros and Elrond were likewise not Half-elven, but five-eighths Elven.) The Silmaril tolerated not only Beren but Dior. The case of the Half-elven was not settled, at least by the Valar, until after Elwing and Eärendil were brought before the Valar. (Mandos argued that they should be mortal, as was Dior; remember, he brought Dior’s parents’ case to the Council of the Valar; but Manwë gave the judgment after meditative consultation with Eru.) Perhaps the Silmaril “knewâ€� the disposition of mortality of Elwing and Eärendil; but I think that it merely accepted them as “goodâ€�, particularly if the alternative was seizure by the Sons of Fëanor following their treacherous assault on the Elves and Men living at the Mouths of Sirion.

That Silmaril was also handled by Elu Thingol, and probably by Melian, too, though we are not told she handled it. It was much handled by the Dwarven smiths of Nogrod, who slew Thingol in Menegroth, and then by their kinsmen from Nogrod who sacked Menegroth; but we are never told if they suffered any ill effects from it. (They suffered some pretty ill effects from Beren, Dior, the Green-elves, and the Ents at Sarn Athrad, the “stony ford� over the River Gelion; but that cannot be directly attributed to the power of the Silmaril.)

Long story short: I think the Silmarilli decided who they did and did not like. If they liked you, they let you handle them; if not, they burned you.

But I could be wrong…


(Of course, this brings up another idea: could Fëanor have ever handled them without pain had he managed to regain one in Middle-earth?)

[Valandil]

That's interesting Alcuin.

I think the silmarils would not have burned Feanor, no matter what - since he created them. If they detected something in him they did not like, I think still they would react in a sympathetic way - if there really was some sort of sentience there. Of course I cannot say for sure.

Interesting about the Dwarves. But the particular Dwarves who handled it (their smiths) may not have been as malevolent as those who actually slew Thingol - and may have been better received. Or of course, they may have used tongs. :p Or had the 'junior apprentice' do all the handling and receiving of burns. :D

[Lefty Scaevola]

The simplest explation for the conflict, and anything else that does not fit, is that one (or both) of the passages is an error or embelisment added by some bard, transcripter, or translator.
Recall the internal logic and history that the Sil is Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish", ancient and originally oral traditions that have passed through several hands over THOUSANDS of years, but with the steadying of a few immortal living memories of the times still being around. I had originally thought Bilbo sources were perserved with Elrond's Noldor in Imlandris, but somewhere in HoME, JRRT goes into more detail about their history and how they went through more hands. The bulk of his marterial, even if orginally for Elvish songs, went through the Edain who went to Numenor (where most them were first written down), and then through the Numenorian Kingdoms is Exile, before winding up in Rivendale or wherever Bilbo found them. In particular things that were not witnessed by the Noldor or Edain who survived to tell the tale were more tenuous in their internal reality. Eg either nobody at all or nobody who came back to Numenor or ME from Valinor in the 2nd age had witnessed Tour's and Idril's fate on the attempted voyage to Valinor. This is even relfect in the Text with the passage being prefaced with an "It is said..." and in Letters with an "it is supposed", and I personnaly believe they just eprsihed in the 'Shadowy Seas" and "Eanchanted Isles" and never made it to Valinor, with the story of their ending in the SIL being just a whishful addition by a bard. But even matters directly witnessed have a strong tendancy to be altered, embelished, interpolated, or extrapolated in oral traditions, and a lesser tendency to do so even after being reduced to writing. Se also in HoME JRRT notes of (I forget his name for it) The Noldroian (in exile) orders of history and traditon, which relied on memory and oral transfer, rather than writing, and which were largely wiped out in the wars against Morgoth.
Little if any of the SIL as presented to us in its internal logic was captured in imperishable recordings or omiscient memory and then transcribed to us exactly as it happened.

[Alcuin]

The simplest explation for the conflict, and anything else that does not fit, is that one (or both) of the passages is an error or embelisment added by some bard, transcripter, or translator.

Well, that is the explanation Tolkien himself created (published in Sauron Defeated) to explain misunderstandings about the Elves that he deliberately introduced into late versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê”. Not Bilbo, per se, but mortals who had never known or met any Elves but taken and mangled knowledge about them in subsequent centuries. And Aragorn himself told the hobbits that only Elrond remembered the “Lay of Leithian” aright when Elrond was not the only Elf still in Middle-earth who had met his great-grandparents: even Elvish memories were imperfect.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Dior was an immortal Half-elven. One of his nicknames was even "The Noble Elf", so I'm not sure where you got the idea he was mortal, Alcuin? The term half-elven, I have always assumed, due to its usage, only means that you had Elvish and Human ancestors in recent lineage. I never thought that it mean exactly 50/50 evenly. I doubt Tolkien would get down into fractions just to describe a character, i.e.; Elrond, the One Third Elven! (or whatever the actual fraction would be). Thoughts?

Always sad to read that Dior, the first of the Half-Elven, and also the first to represent the Three Kindreds of Elf, Man and Maiar, died at the age of 36 . . .

I do agree with the possibility of the Silmarils (probably with a piece of Eru's mind) judging who can and can't hold them.

[Alcuin]

Dior was an immortal Half-elven. One of his nicknames was even "The Noble Elf", so I'm not sure where you got the idea he was mortal, Alcuin? The term half-elven, I have always assumed, due to its usage, only means that you had Elvish and Human ancestors in recent lineage. I never thought that it mean exactly 50/50 evenly. I doubt Tolkien would get down into fractions just to describe a character, i.e.; Elrond, the One Third Elven! (or whatever the actual fraction would be). Thoughts?

Always sad to read that Dior, the first of the Half-Elven, and also the first to represent the Three Kindreds of Elf, Man and Maiar, died at the age of 36 . . .


I cannot agree. All the Half-elven were half Elven. The rule that Mandos put forward regarding the half-elves in the Máhanaxar hearing on Eärendil and Elwing was that they were all automatically mortal. Manwë (after consultation with Eru) overruled him and gave each of the half-elves the opportunity to choose among which kindred they would be counted. Elrond’s children, since he himself chose to be counted among the Elves, also had such a choice; at least, Arwen made the same choice as Lúthien.

Now, why would Mandos insist that all the half-elves were mortal? There was, in fact, already a rule: Dior was dead. Dior’s father was a mortal man. Dior’s mother, Lúthien, had already renounced Elven immortality before he was born. Dior was born of two mortals: one was a Man, one was an Elf, but Lúthien had already given up her immortality to be counted among Men for the sake of her love of Beren. Dior may have been a half-elf, but he was born mortal, because both his parents were mortal. Moreover, Dior was already been killed in the Second Kinslaying, the Ruin of Doriath by the Sons of Fëanor, as had his twin sons, Eluréd and ElurÃ*n, Elwing’s brothers. Dior had already come to Mandos, and probably as his parents, had already left Arda.

Finally, you should examine the lineage of the persona. If Dior is mortal, the Elros and Elrond are truly half-Elven. If he isn’t, then they’re not: they’re really more Elven than Men. As to whether Tolkien would pay any attention to such minutia, you should consider his comments (in Letters) on the Dúnedain understanding of what we would call genetics, his especially careful attention to nearly a dozen genealogies; Gandalf’s comments (in “Quest for Erebor� in Unfinished Tales) to his in-story attention to what kind of hobbit he wanted to bring with Thorin & Co.; and last but not least, a non-genealogical, non-genetic detail: Tolkien carefully calculated that the Númenórean calendar was 17.2 seconds slow per annum, while the Gregorian calendar (that we use) is 26 seconds fast. (Letter 176) Tolkien did indeed give that close attention to detail. It’s what gives his fiction the feeling that it’s real.

This is supposed to be an embedded image showing “the lineage of the persona�, but I cannot get the [img] vbCode to work consistently. The string I used is:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg
The result I get is:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg

[AndMorgothCame.]

I think we need a second opinion on this, but in the meantime, here is some evidence backing me up. (Good debate, Alcuin, this is getting interesting)

From "The Ruin of Doriath"

"Dior returned no answer to the sons of Feanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the thousand caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf".

Now this could've meant the defenders of Dior were slain, but Tolkien does not say defenders, he says "Fought with Dior. . . and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf". Also think of this:
Dior's nickname was Eluchil, which means Elu's Heir. If he was Elu's heir, then he must be an Elf, because no heir to the throne of Elves would EVER be permitted to be a mortal. That's obvious enough.
His other title, Aranel, means Royal Elf.
In some writings in the HoME books (sorry, can't give a more accurate reference because I don't have the books in front of me), Tolkien names Dior as the first of the Peredhil (Halfelven).

In reading this information, I have come across other things that point to him being mortal, but not enough so for me to think otherwise.

Above all of this, though, I believe my strongest point is that there were only 3 Elf/Man marriages. And he was NOT one of them. He married Nimloth, an Elf, and therefore he was Elf.

BUMP!

[Alcuin]

AndMorgothCame., I see your point. Please allow me to correct my argument.

I do not disagree that Dior was Peredhil, Half-elven. On that, we are in complete agreement: his mother was Lúthien, an Elf, and his father Beren was a Man. By definition, Dior was Peredhil, and he himself says that he is the first of the Peredhil.

I must hasten to point out that, in Dior’s lifetime and at his death, no one – Man, Elf, Maia or Vala – knew what it meant to be Peredhil. I have not tried to determine how much time elapsed between the death of Dior and the judgment of Manwë in the Máhanaxar, when the matter was settled on a practical basis, but that several decades passed would not seem out of reason.

The thrust of my argument is this: Dior was completely mortal. As to which of the Two Kindreds he must accept “assignment,� it is clear that Mandos recognized him as mortal and considered him a Man, and so also Mandos considered Eärendil both Man and mortal. In “The Voyage of Eärendil� in Silmarillion, …after Eärendil had departed [Valimar], … Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said, ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’
This is presaged in “The Tale of Eärendil� in The Book of Lost Tales – Volume II (HoME II), p 265 (American hardback),

In The Silmarillion (p. 249) Manwë’s judgment was that Eärendil and Elwing ‘shall not walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands’; … it is said in the Name-list to The Fall of Gondolin that he does not come ever further back than Kôr [=Tirion]. The further statement in the Name-list, that if he did so he would die like other Men, ‘so much of the mortal is in him’…

“‘so much of the mortal is in him’â€�. Again, I remind you: Dior was already dead. His spirit had already come to Mandos, and as had those of his parents, almost certainly departed from Arda. Mandos was therefore not merely musing upon which Kindred Dior belonged: Peredhil and EluchÃ*l [“Elu’s Heirâ€�] though he was, he was mortal, and thus in the eyes of Mandos a Man.

That the Folk of Doriath accounted Dior an Elf, or at least the rightful Heir of Elu Thingol regardless, I have no doubt: they crowned him their king without hesitation or any reported dispute. (Does that mean he had pointed ears?) But there was no way for them or anyone else to know whether or not he was mortal like his parents – for Lúthien was as mortal as Beren upon her return – because, as you point out, he died so young.

To distill this:

Dior was the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven).
The Sindar of Doriath never questioned that he was Elu’s proper heir and therefore their king.
Both of his parents were mortal when he was born, therefore Dior was also mortal.
He died young, before any sign of mortality could work on him.
Mandos recognized him as a mortal and therefore considered him a Man because he surely departed Arda after arriving in the Halls of Mandos.
Mandos’ recognition of this probably informed his judgment, overruled by Manwë, that Eärendil was also Man and mortal.

[AndMorgothCame.]

I'm aware of the race and fates of both Earendil and Elwing (who was 5/8 Sindar, and both were counted among the Elves), and I think I see what you're getting at but it's not convincing me. . . Can you explain why Tolkien leaves the Dior/Nimloth relationship off the list of the pairings of Elf and Man? Also, would this relationship thus make Nimloth renounce her immortal spirit, and if so, I don't ever remember reading about such an event?
These things make it hard to agree with your view on Dior, and after searching online for different info and viewpoints, there is nothing I can find that is concrete. The strongest point I suppose would be that both his parents were mortal when he was born, even though, since the Ruling of the HalfElven did not occur until after all of this, the divine ruling was not set in stone yet. Yes, his parents were re-embodied as mortals, but obviously Luthien was born otherwise.

But my last point is this: As I said before, Tolkien (numerous times) stated the three pairings of Elf and Man, and Dior and Nimloth were not on this list, and to me, that trumps all other arguments. Can you defend that?

[Alcuin]

Yes, I think I can, AndMorgothCame.

First, in the case of Elwing and Eärendil, you are ignoring the fact that their membership in one Kindred or the other was not a given: Manwë overruled Mandos, who judged that both mortal and belonged to the Second Kindred (Men), which was itself noteworthy: I am not aware that Manwë ever overruled a judgment by Mandos in any other circumstance.

Dior by definition was neither Elf nor Man, but Peredhil. I argue that Mandos considered Dior mortal Man because Dior’s spirit departed Arda. That he was mortal you yourself are inclined to concede: his father was mortal by nature, and his mother was mortal by choice acceded by divine intervention. It was a sensible judgment on the part of Mandos: Elves, after all, were bound to Arda, dying when Arda ended; only Men escaped the bounds of Arda. Beren left Arda, Lúthien left Arda, Dior left Arda: ergo, Dior must be a Man.

Lúthien was quite aware that when she chose to cleave to Beren, she chose mortality and to accept his fate in Arda as hers, sundered from the Elves. Tuor left Middle-earth with Idril, and was counted among the Eldar, the only one of the Second Kindred accorded that change. Arwen renounced her Elven nature and clove to Aragorn, and she, too, accepted mortality, finding it bitter as Elrond foresaw. Nimrodel, however, is never mentioned as having changed fate or been accorded any such consideration; but there was a “problem of the Half-elven�, as Tolkien notes in Letter 153:

…Lúthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of ‘immorality’ and become ‘mortal’ — but when Beren is slain …, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth ‘alive’ – though not mingling with other people... Tuor weds Idril …; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’... Eärendil is Tuor’s son & father of Elros (first King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line.

So when Dior died and came to Mandos, the issue was formally unresolved. Again, I say that Dior must have left Arda as did his parents.

Dior was not an Elf, and he was not a Man: he Peredhil, Half-elven. Earlier, you quoted the passage in which he said, “I am the first of the Pereðil,� but could not remember the source. (By which we recognize you as a most extraordinary Hobbit in Entmoot.) Let me complete the citation: it is from Peoples of Middle-earth, the essay “Problem of Ros�:

I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the EluchÃ*l.

The context?

Dior recognizes that being Pereðil makes him different from Men and Elves. (One can only imagine the conversations of young Dior: “Mommy, what I am, Elven like you or Mankind like Daddy?�)
Dior recognizes that, although he is not an Elf – at least, not fully Elven – he is still then heir of Thingol. And the Elves of Doriath whole-heartedly agreed with his assessment and made him king regardless of the nature of his mortality.
Tolkien was careful with words. Had there been no question about Dior’s ancestry – i.e., had he been fully Elven – he would have said, “I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); and I am also the heir of King Elwë, the EluchÃ*l.â€� There is a problem, because he says, “but I am also the heirâ€�.


Dior had thought about this more than anyone else: it concerned him quite closely: after all, it wasn’t a problem for anyone else! Not yet, at any rate.

So the Sons of Fëanor assault Doriath, Dior (who learned warfare helping his father waylay the marauding Dwarves of Nogrod returning from their attack on Doriath at the Crossings of Gelion) kills Curufin and Caranthir but is himself slain along with his wife, Nimloth.

Now, what becomes of Dior? He and Nimloth go to Mandos. What happens to Nimloth? She’s an Elf, she stays. What happens to Dior? He leaves: he has to! His parents are mortal: he himself isn’t an Elf: he’s Pereðil, and that’s a problem.

This isn’t a complete union of souls and fates in the way of Beren and Lúthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen. Nimloth and Dior are separated.

So when Mandos goes to Valimar to hear the embassy of Eärendil, and the question of what to do with Eärendil and Elwing is discussed, he already knows the solution, because he’s already seen it: Dior left. As he understands the situation based on his own first-hand knowledge, the Half-elves must be Men with Elvish blood. Mandos consults with Eru, says no, and for the one and only time, overrules Mandos.

You’re right, AndMorgothCame., Dior is not a Man. But he is mortal. If he wasn’t, Mandos would not have flatly stated that Eärendil and Elwing the Half-elves were Men and so had to die even though they had come to the Undying Land. If Dior shared in the limited Elvish immortality, he would have been in the Halls of Mandos. The statement and the finality with which Mandos delivers it make no sense unless Dior is gone.

So that’s why Dior and Nimloth are not in the list. First of all, Dior isn’t a Man – my mistake for saying that in my first post without context – he’s Half-elven. He recognizes it as a problem before anyone else does because it’s his problem before it’s anyone else’s. Secondly, Dior and Nimloth are separated after death: the other three couples are not.

Finally, there were other unions of Elves and Men besides these three, even setting aside the union between Nimloth and Half-elven Dior. Imrazôr was a nobleman of Belfalas. He took the elf-maiden Mithrellas to wife; she was a companion of Nimrodel. His son Galador was the first Lord of Dol Amroth, born in the year 2004 of the Third Age. This is admittedly unusual, but it is also not in the line of the Kings of Men: it isn’t in the lineage of Elros or any of his descendents. Imrazôr died in 2076, and Mithrellas slipped away in the night when Galador was young. There is no evidence whatever that Mithrellas became mortal, and we are left to conclude rather that she left Middle-earth and went into the West. The fact that Beren and Lúthien knew they could intermarry strongly suggests that there were unions of Men and Elves before them; and the union of Imrazôr and Mithrellas suggests that there were numerous others afterwards.

There are three unions that are complete unions in which both members of the couple share the same fate. Flat-out, Tolkien writes early in “Appendix A� of RotK that

There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain…

In anticipation of your objections, I say that

Dior was not Edain, he was Peredhil. Mandos mistook him for a Man because he was mortal: and but for Manwë’s ruling on the Half-elves, Mandos was correct. After all, the “Elven� children of Elrond obtained the same choice as their father; but the children of Elros did not: they were all mortal without exception, and many of them seriously and famously resented it.
We can infer that Mithrellas must not have been an Elda. (Imrazôr was a Dúnadan, and so technically also an Adan.)


Your ball, AndMorgothCame.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Dior is too goodlooking to be a mortal!

Your ball, Alcuin.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Just kidding, but I now must agree. I hadn't read those deeper details of Letters, so the Manwe/Mandos judgements were news to me. Thanks for the info and the time to type all that out.

I always liked Dior, thinking he was an Elf, but now that he was mortal, I must admit it's a bit of a bummer.

Another thing I was thinking, Elured and Elurin, if they were Elves, would have survived a lot easier out in the wild, not needing much food and sleep, unlike mortals.

On a side note, I was looking at your spreadsheet a few posts back and you have Elwing as 4/32 Maiar, 20/32 Elvish and 8/32 mortal, are you sure she wouldn't be 5/32 Maiar and 7/32 Mortal?

[Varnafindë]

The fact that Beren and Lúthien knew they could intermarry strongly suggests that there were unions of Men and Elves before them; and the union of Imrazôr and Mithrellas suggests that there were numerous others afterwards.

Finrod talked to Andreth about such intermarriage. Their conversation took place about 409, during the Long Peace (260-455), more than fifty years before Beren, who was Andreth's grand-nephew and Finrod's friend, met Luthien.

The quote is from where Finrod explains to Andreth why his brother Aegnor turned away from her and didn't declare his love for her, even though he loved her and she loved him.

... he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME 10

Would Finrod's words to Andreth imply that such unions had - unfortunately, in his view - taken place, or do they imply that he hopes that they won't?

[Alcuin]

AndMorgothCame., the problem for Dior is that he’s not in the First Kindred or the Second. Had his mother, Lúthien, not renounced her Elvish immortality, he’d have been a real conundrum at the Halls of Mandos, where he’d probably have chosen to stay with Nimloth; but of course, had Lúthien not renounced her Elvish immortality, he’d have never been born. So he was Peredhil but mortal. As the old saying goes, rather crudely applied, he was neither fish nor fowl.

On the image (vbCode [IMG] that doesn’t work) at http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg, I think all the fractions are in lowest common denominator. The condition of whether each person was Mortal is in the last two lines. The first of these last two lines is labeled “Dior is half mortal�, and the lower one “Dior is mortal�. If “Dior is mortal�, then Elwing is half-mortal and so, in that sense, “Half-elven� even though she is only one-quarter Second Kindred (it sounds funny to say “Man� regarding Elwing). Elros and Elrond are only three-eighths Mankind, but if “Dior is mortal�, then both of them, like their mother, is half-mortal.

If “Dior is mortal�, all the Peredhil except Dior are half-mortal, but only Eärendil is truly half-Elven: Dior was one-quarter Maiar. I suppose “one-quarter Maiar� plus one-quarter Elven works out to “half-Elven�, but it’s there all the same.

If the question were just, “Are you Men or Elves?â€� I think it would have been simpler. For the Valar, not to mention the people involved – and the storyline – the point is not the genetics, but the disposition of the spirits of the dead. (More properly, the un-housed: Dior, Eluréd and ElurÃ*n all died violently or before old age could catch up with them.) The decisive issue was their mortality: were they accounted among Elves or Men?

There are some loose ends here.

I can’t find it, but I seem to recall that Mandos was either unhappy that his initial judgment regarding Eärendil was overturned, or else he foresaw the trouble that came afterwards.
The rebellion of the Númenóreans was based upon the judgment of Manwë.
“Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn … because of Lúthien;� but Lúthien wasn’t with the Elves any longer, but with Beren and the Second Kindred: was she trying to balance out the cosmic difference? Or just flighty? :D (That’s a pun, by the way…)
For Elwing’s “sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men�. Eärendil was already weary of the world: he wanted to be counted among Men. He could potentially have become one of the most miserable of the Children of Ilúvatar.
Tuor was counted among the Noldor. There is telling of the story in Lost Tales II that Ulmo hid him and none of the other Valar in Council knew where Tuor was or what had become of him. I don’t know what became of that story-line, but Ulmo was the non-conformist among the Valar. In Letter 153. Tolkien explicitly says that Tuor’s fate is not explicit; when the Elven (and Maiar?) emissaries of the Valar visit Tar-Atanamir in the middle of the Second Age to warn him against rebelling against the Valar and, by inference, against Eru and the design of Arda, he noted that his forefather Eärendil was immortal but did not mention Tuor. (Sauron Defeated, “second text of Drowning of Anadûnê�, §23. The information presented is deliberately mangled by Tolkien to replicate a contaminated historical record.)


Would Finrod's words to Andreth imply that such unions had - unfortunately, in his view - taken place, or do they imply that he hopes that they won't?
I think he’s allowing that some unions between Silvan Elves and Men have taken place, but saying that the Eldar will not intermarry with Men without “some high purpose of Doom.�

It’s all but certain that Elves did not at first recognize Men as mortals, nor did Men understand that Elves were not. The implication is that the “Three Unions of Elves and Men� are recitations of the three unions of Elves and Men between the royal houses of the Elves and the chieftains (royal houses) of the Edain. All the other intermarriages (such as Imrazôr and Mithrellas, which was very late in the history of Middle-earth) were ignored. It might be important in this context that there was no union between the Eldar and the Second House of the Edain, who had no proper hereditary chieftain: i.e., no hereditary “king.�

I think Finrod was also telling Andrath that Aegnor would never marry anyone else because he loved her. To me it’s a deeply moving story, foreshadowing in tone the “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen�.

[Galin]

Incidentally Mithrellas was not considered an Elda -- according to The Lord of the Rings at least, as the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien were 'East-elves' and technically not Eldar or 'West-elves'.

In The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn it's noted that she is of the lesser Silvan race '(and not of the High Elves or the Grey)' which actually fits well enough with already published text, given that the Grey-elves are also West-elves or Eldar.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Eldar includes those of the Teleri that started and quit the great journey, the Nandor as well as the Sindar. The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and of Lorien included many Nandor as well as Avari. The Nandor settled these two areas befor the Avari arrieved there. I am not sure, but I believe the largest component of Lorien's population was Nandor.
The Nandor (excepting the Laequendi) were not 'Belerianderized' and were culturally very similar to the Avari, and a considared Silvan like the Avari, yet they still count as people of the Great journey.

[Galin]

Eldar includes those of the Teleri that started and quit the great journey, the Nandor as well as the Sindar.

According to The Lord of the Rings however, in Appendix F: 'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, of which all of the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.' Most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien were 'East-elves' and their languages do not seem to be classed as Eldarin. And later, same source: '... and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of days (save the Sindar only).'

I note CJRT's interesting (and more recent than Silmarillion) entry for Eldar as published in The Children of Húrin: 'Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.' This fits in fine with the Eldar or 'West-elves' of The Lord of the Rings.

In any event, to compare apples to apples, so to speak: the Three Unions (as revised for the second edition) in Appendix A concerns the Edain and the Eldar -- and according to the same book (Appendix F), the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien are not considered Eldar.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Regardless of their different language, the Nandor were by definition Eldar.
To the source:
SIL, pg 309, cahrt of "The sudering of the Elves
Nandor are under Teleri are under Eldar
underneath Nandor (and Sindar and Laiquendi) is the caption "Umanyar, The Eldar who were not of Aman

SIL, index (which also seems to be a glossary) pg 326
Eldar ... (orignally) "all the Elves" (as called by Orome), Later "...the Elves of the Three Kindreds (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri) who set out on the freat westward march from Cuivienen (whether or not they remained in Middle-Earth)..."

SIL, index, page 342:
"the Nandor were those of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains...."

SIL, Index, pg 348
"Silvan Elves ... they appear to have been in origin those Nandorian Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains"

SIL, index, pg 350:
Teleri The third and greatest of the three hosts of the Eldar ... the Sindar and Nandor were Telerin..."

[Galin]

Yes, but that's all unpublished text (not published by the author himself).

Concerning the matter raised by Legolas (the legend of Elven-blood in connection to Dol Amroth) and the passage regarding the Three Unions: if the legend is true, the Elf who married a mortal is implied to be a Silvan Elf of Lórien: 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still once can see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.' And Appendix B: '1981 Many of the Silvan Elves of Lórien flee south. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost.'

When the three unions and the descriptions from Appendix F are considered -- noting that the former passage was altered by Tolkien for the second edition to read Eldar rather than Elves -- a natural enough association is that a Silvan, non-eldarin East-elf is connected with the legend. This works well enough even with the late text Amroth And Nimrodel (1969 or later). Amroth says that passage Over Sea: '... is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.'

If we plug in The Lord of the Rings here, Amroth might be saying: even if one is not of the Eldar... or, looking at the 'Mithrellas note' from Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien distinguishes Mithrellas as not being of the High Elves or the Grey but of the 'lesser Silvan Race', this fits too I think -- as not being of the High Elves or the Grey basically meant not being one of the Eldar or West-elves.

Tolkien also wrote that any who began the Great Journey were certainly Eldar (Christopher Tolkien did not invent the idea for The Silmarillion of course), however he did not always think so (see The Lhammas IIRC), and he did not publish this in any case. One could attempt to explain how everything Tolkien wrote concerning the term Eldar fits here, but for myself, although I have thought about it, in any event I don't see a great need to do that; or at least I see no problem with the approach I've taken.



Whenever the three unions comes up, often enough so does the Mithrellas legend -- and often enough along with this, also the 'definition' of Eldar as anyone who began the Great March. But why not bring up what Tolkien himself published here? which works better with respect to this matter in my opinion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

LoTR can hardly be a considered source regarding the Nandor, since they are not mentioned therein. Nor will you get very far arguing that the SIL is not the best source for the material which it covers, and LoTR does not (particularly inside The Silmarillion subforum). But, we cannot be confident that Mithrellas was of Nandorin descent, Since Silvan also included the Avari who blended into their culture, and by the time of Amroth many Avari had moved into Lorien and Mirkwood, particularly during the War of Elves and Sauron in the 2nd age.

[Alcuin]

The essay “Quendi and Eldarâ€� published in War of the Jewels (HoME vol. XI) was written 1959-60. In it, the Nandor are considered Eldar, and both Nandor and Avari (proper Avari, about half Tatyar/second clan/*ñgolodō (with a little “nâ€�, signifying the original clan before it split over the Great Journey) and half Nelyar/third clan/*lindā) had migrated into Beleriand; in fact, the first Elves Fëanor and his followers encountered were Tatyar Avari, who recognized their ancient clan kinship with the returning rebellious Caliquendi.

For the folk of Dol Amroth, Mithrellas was not a legend, but the wife of Imrazôr and mother of Galador. The heritage was immediately obvious to Legolas almost a thousand years later even after 22 generations. We cannot imagine that this was the only intermarriage of Men and Elves in Middle-earth; however, only three intermarriages took place between their ruling families. These three are Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen.

Finrod speaking to Andreth is a member of the royal house of the Second Clan (Noldor with a capital “Nâ€�) to a member of the ruling family of the First House of the Edain. I remain in agreement with Varnafindë that his discussion with her indicates that such unions had taken place before, that they “ended badly,â€� if you will: the lovers were forever separated, as were Dior EluchÃ*l and Nimloth. This is the crucial matter that Finrod and Andreth are debating: Andreth is complaining that she will bear that ultimate separation if Finrod’s brother Aegnor will return her love, to which Finrod – who is genuinely fond of Andreth and knows for certain that Aegnor truly loves her and will never love another, not even another Elf – explains that there cannot be a union of this sort between – and here I am interpolating – his kinsfolk, the High Elves and Grey Elves, and Men except for some great matter of Doom.

Does the essay “Quendi and Eldar� group the Nandor along with the Sindar in Middle-earth? Yeah, it does, and it’s later than LotR, and it explicitly says the Eldar include the Nandor. Is that what Tolkien was thinking when he wrote LotR and said that Imrahil’s ancestor was an elf, or when with some pains he explicitly lays out this union between Imrazôr and Mithrellas in “The House of Dol Amroth� in 1954, which is included in the chapter “Heirs of Elendil� in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME vol. XII), or when he wrote “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth� around 1959 (Morgoth’s Ring) – apparently contemporaneously with “Quendi and Eldar�? I don’t think it is.

I was going to argue that the Nandor were not consistently lumped with the Eldar, and for that point I found facsimiles several hand-drawn charts in the chapter “Lhammas� in Lost Road (HoME vol. V); but to my surprise, the Nandor – here called Ilkorindi (“not of Kôr [Tirion]�) – are a subset of the Eldar. Presumably the Ilkorindi were both the Sindar and what we are calling the Nandor as well.

It doesn’t seem to me that precludes Mithrellas’ being one of the Nandor. I don’t get the sense when I read his stories that Tolkien was either carefully or consistently employing the distinction that the Nandor were Eldar. He was careful to always distinguish the Sindar as Eldar, even though they had never seen the Two Trees (except for Elu Thingol). But it seems to me – and I could very easily be wrong – that when Tolkien is writing narrative, the Nandor and Avari are getting lumped together as non-Eldar. The distinction of the Nandor as Eldar in the narratives seems at best very sloppy compared his consistently rigorous distinction of the Sindar as Eldar.

Tolkien talks about the “Light Elves�, the Vanyar; the “High Elves�, the Noldor; and the “Grey Elves�, the Sindar. These are the Eldar. Are Nandor “Grey Elves�? No, they’re “Green Elves�. Well, yeah, technically they are; but Tolkien doesn’t seem to treat them that way, and in the narratives, they don’t appear to be Eldar. Of course, the Green Elves of Ossiriand told Finrod the Atani (Men) were their “unfriends�, so they were probably loathe to intermarry with them, while perhaps the Avari were not so strongly disinclined. Then again, after living with Lúthien and Beren during their brief sojourn in Middle-earth after returning from Mandos, maybe the Green Elves changed their minds about Men. Who knows?

Going back to Belwen_of_nargothrond’s original question, did Beren’s handling the Silmaril violate some rule that mortals could not handle a Silmaril? Obviously not, because he handled it. When Lúthien returned from Mandos with Beren, although she was still an Elf and the daughter of a Maia, she was also mortal, and she handled it and wore it, though Tolkien says that this may have hastened her demise. I have already presented an argument (that I hope is fairly convincing) that Dior is mortal because both his parents are mortal: he handled and wore the Silmaril as well, apparently without any bad effects: of itself, it didn’t shorten his life, though the Sons of Fëanor did out of covetousness of it. In the other hand, Maedhros and Maglor could not handle it, though they were not mortal.

In light of the issue of whether the Nandor are consistently treated as Eldar in the narratives (as opposed to the definition essays), I suggest that the “rule� that mortals could not handle the Silmaril is a loose end: it sounds great when you read it in the sense that it has a catchy literary ring to it, but it isn’t consistently applied: in fact, it seems to me to be consistently ignored.

[Galin]

LoTR can hardly be a considered source regarding the Nandor, since they are not mentioned therein. Nor will you get very far arguing that the SIL is not the best source for the material which it covers, and LoTR does not (particularly inside The Silmarillion subforum).

My argument is that Tolkien-published text is the best source, and even if the term Nandor is not mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, the term Eldar is. I accept much about the Nandor according to The Silmarillion, but with respect to the particular detail of whether or not they are considered Eldar, I can choose to put first and foremost what The Lord of the Rings has to say about the term.

I also choose to imagine Celebrimbor as a Feanorian rather than a Telerin Elf, for instance, no matter that Tolkien wrote the latter idea later than he published the Feanorian detail.

But, we cannot be confident that Mithrellas was of Nandorin descent, Since Silvan also included the Avari who blended into their culture, and by the time of Amroth many Avari had moved into Lorien and Mirkwood, particularly during the War of Elves and Sauron in the third age.

In referring to Mithrellas as a Silvan, non-eldarin East-elf, to my mind (employing The Lord of the Rings) this can include Nandorin or Avarin descent. But the Avarin question is interesting in any event: does the 'late etymological discussion' (Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Appendix A) stating that the Silvan Elves are Telerin mean all of them are Telerin? Or did Tolkien simply not choose to mention the Avari here (outside of stating that these Telerin Tawarwaith were 'hardly to be distinguished from Avari' it seems)?

The essay “Quendi and Eldar” published in War of the Jewels (HoME vol. XI) was written 1959-60. In it, the Nandor are considered Eldar, ...'

Incidentally Quendi And Eldar is arguably one of the unpublished sources Christopher Tolkien used to define Eldar in the Silmarillion.

For the folk of Dol Amroth, Mithrellas was not a legend, but the wife of Imrazôr and mother of Galador. The heritage was immediately obvious to Legolas almost a thousand years later even after 22 generations.

Still, Tolkien put the matter into a legendary context within The Lord of the Rings, and even The Line of Dol Amroth includes: 'according to the same traditions...', or 'in this tale it is said...', and most notably from the section The House of Dol Amroth (The Heirs of Elendil) it is noted: '(according to the legends and traditions of Dol Amroth)'

It's perhaps not easy to imagine Legolas being wrong about this, and that the traditions of Dol Amroth included a tale of fancy, but on the other hand, the marriage seems purposely characterized as a legend (interesting to note that Mithrellas 'slipped away by night and he saw her no more' after bearing the children of Imrazor. After a time even Imrazor himself could not produce his Elven wife as 'proof' of the story).

Perhaps the idea (ultimately) is: beyond the famed unions this one 'other union' should not be wholly certain.

For myself, I think that intermarriage between Elves and Men was meant to be seen as a rare event. In draft letter 153 Tolkien is speaking quite generally with respect to Elves and Men: 'Elves and men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring -- even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.' (1954)

Footnote to this section of the letter: 'One would expect 'three cases', cf The Lord of the Rings III 314: 'There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain...' (note that this footnote refers to the wording of the second edition incidentally -- the first edition did not read Eldar and Edain, but High Elves and Men IIRC).

Finrod speaking to Andreth is a member of the royal house of the Second Clan (Noldor with a capital “N”) to a member of the ruling family of the First House of the Edain. I remain in agreement with Varnafindë that his discussion with her indicates that such unions had taken place before, that they “ended badly,” if you will: the lovers were forever separated, as were Dior EluchÃ*l and Nimloth. This is the crucial matter that Finrod and Andreth are debating: Andreth is complaining that she will bear that ultimate separation if Finrod’s brother Aegnor will return her love, to which Finrod – who is genuinely fond of Andreth and knows for certain that Aegnor truly loves her and will never love another, not even another Elf – explains that there cannot be a union of this sort between – and here I am interpolating – his kinsfolk, the High Elves and Grey Elves, and Men except for some great matter of Doom.

I don't think Finrod's words are necessarily based on former unions. He can be speaking generally, based on what he believes concerning the nature of Elves and Men; and it follows naturally enough (in my opinion), that the conditions he speaks of must come to pass: that is, put generally, Aegnor will not age and die and leave the World -- Andreth will, no matter the reason why.

As to Finrod's statement (high purpose of Doom and so on), I note Tolkien's commentary, including his use of more general 'Elves and Men' here: 'Finrod thus was slain before the two marriages of Elves and Men had taken place, though without his aid the marriage of Beren and Luthien would not have come to pass. The marriage of Beren certainly fulfilled his prediction that such marriages would only be for some high purpose of Doom, and that the least cruel fate would be that death should soon end them.'


Back to Eldar: in The Lhammas the Danas, at least at one point, were not 'certainly' considered Eldar, even though they began the Great March. Christopher Tolkien notes:

'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterized as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt the desire for the West, and the suggestion in B is clearly that it was this that brought a part of the people over the mountains. Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.' CJRT, commentary section 7 The Lhammas, The Lost Road And Other Writings

We could attempt to maybe blend the conceptions in an internal way; for example: the term Eldar narrowed in application ('Star-folk' narrowed in application to exclude the other Star-folk who refused the March), and so it generally refers to The Marchers/People of the Stars (see Elda and Eldo in Quendi And Eldar), as in any who began the March. But possibly this narrowed again due to certain Elves giving up the March 'too early' -- arguably considered as not true Eldor or Marchers -- and thus Eldar/Eldor narrows again to refer to any who reached the Undying Lands or Beleriand, this becoming the true meaning of being a Marcher.

The etymological discussion concerning the Telerin Tawarwaith seems to contain the expression 'in origin Eldar'. Perhaps readers could imagine something similar to the Danas of The Lhammas: the Nandor could be considered Eldar in one sense, but not Eldar according to its later application. That said, when one brings up the three unions and the Mithrellas legend, this take on Eldar might seem like wriggling.

If so... again, why not go with Tolkien-published text here :)

[Galin]

Alcuin, since you appear to be back at the moment, how do the children of Elrond fit in with your previous commentary?

Tolkien also refers to them as half-elven IIRC, anyway.

[Alcuin]

Alcuin, since you appear to be back at the moment, how do the children of Elrond fit in with your previous commentary?

Tolkien also refers to them as half-elven IIRC, anyway.

The children of Elrond fit in my ruminations (and calculations) as they did before. If Dior was mortal, Elros and Elrond were half-mortal, and I suppose that made them “Halfelven�. Dior and Eärendil were Halfelven, but Elwing is only “Halfelven� if her father, Dior, is mortal and she is “Halfelven� in the sense of being half-mortal. Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen were technically one-quarter mortal, but as long as Elrond remained in Middle-earth, they were counted as Elves. Arwen clearly renounced that position and died as a mortal, apparently alone and perhaps unhappily. We know from the “Epilogue� in Sauron Defeated (abridged as The End of the Third Age) that after the departure of Galadriel, Celeborn lived for a while with his grandsons, Elladan and Elrohir, in Rivendell; but it would seem that by the time Findegil copied the Red Book Westmarch as the Thain’s Book (purportedly the copy that Tolkien “translated� from Westron into English as Lord of the Rings (and Silmarillion)) in Fourth Age 172, Celeborn had departed for Tol Eressëa. Whether Elladan and Elrohir left with him, left at another time, or chose to be mortal is a matter of debate: Tolkien does not reveal their fate.

Again, vbCode [IMG] is disabled in this part of Entmoot, at least for me; it works fine in other parts. I have the lineage of Elrond and Arwen worked out as fractions of Elves and Men at http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg.

I don’t recall that Tolkien ever specifically called Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen “Halfelves�. By the union of Aragorn and Arwen, the long-sundered lines of the Peredhil were reunited, but the Peredhil in this case were properly Elros and Elrond, and the union of Aragorn and Arwen brought together the two distinct family lines descended from Eärendil and Elwing. Elrond was Halfelven, accounted by his choice as an Elf; his children were given the same grace to choose as was their father, but not Elros’ children: a bone of contention among many of Elros’ descendents. Furthermore, “The Drowning of Anadûnê� (Sauron Defeated) says that,

And Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was added, that choice was never annulled, and while the world lasted he might return, if he would, to mortal men, and die.

I think that it is his choice to “return … to mortal men, and die� that Elrond’s children inherited. I am struck by the phrase, “return … to mortal men,� as if his choice to be counted among the Elves removed him from the fate that first awaited him – I think that is a proper interpretation. In any case, Arwen specifically renounced her Elven lifespan and, as had Lúthien before her, chose to be mortal so that she might remain with Aragorn.

[Galin]

(...) I don’t recall that Tolkien ever specifically called Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen “Halfelves”. By the union of Aragorn and Arwen, the long-sundered lines of the Peredhil were reunited, but the Peredhil in this case were properly Elros and Elrond, and the union of Aragorn and Arwen brought together the two distinct family lines descended from Eärendil and Elwing. Elrond was Halfelven, accounted by his choice as an Elf; his children were given the same grace to choose as was their father, but not Elros’ children: a bone of contention among many of Elros’ descendents.

In letter 211 (1958) Tolkien notes that the names of Elrond's sons: '... refer to the fact that they were 'half-elven' (III 314): they had mortal as well as Elvish ancestors on both sides;... ' noting JRRT's reference here to page 314 in The Lord of the Rings (first edition), Appendix A, on which page appears the reference to the Peredhil.

In letter 345 (1972) Tolkien wrote: 'Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.'


Furthermore, “The Drowning of Anadûnê” (Sauron Defeated) says that, (...)

I think that it is his choice to “return … to mortal men, and die” that Elrond’s children inherited. I am struck by the phrase, “return … to mortal men,” as if his choice to be counted among the Elves removed him from the fate that first awaited him – I think that is a proper interpretation.

That quote is from The Fall of Numenor III, which (quote) CJRT contrasts with the later description in Appendix A: 'At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong.'

Italic lettering as printed in Sauron Defeated.

[Alcuin]

If Tolkien wrote it, then it must be so. Were I given an opportunity to sit and speak with him, or to correspond with him – both of which I hope to do, but I’d like to put them off for several decades at least – I would first point out the fact that, within the legendarium, Dior had died and passed through the Halls of Mandos – and by Tolkien’s own telling, passed through and left Arda as a mortal Man normally would: hence the assumption on the part of Irmo Mandos that the Peredhil were mortal. I would also object, as did the Númenórean Kings, that Elrond’s children obtained the right to choose to which race they would be accounted, while Elros’ children obtained no such grace: “once mortal, ever mortal�; but this was the same rule Mandos propounded, that Manwë had set aside for Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond. (And Tuor, but he is never mentioned in this argumentative context.)

I might snidely remark that Letter 345 was written in the last ten months of Tolkien’s life, and perhaps his views then did not reflect those he held for most of his writing, as is the case with whether Celeborn was Sindar of Beleriand or Teleri of Eldamar; but I think that would achieve no good end, because I think it is itself not an accurate assessment: it would appear that this does indeed accurately reflect Tolkien’s position on the matter. I might even resort to being tacky and note that Letter 345 is a discussion of naming cows and heifers, but that is simply ad hominem and counter-productive.

So in the end, I will have to agree that “Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.� She was, by blood, more than three-quarters Elven (in fact, more than half Lindar, either Sindar or Teleri); and even if her great-grandfather Dior had been fully mortal, as I argue he was, she would have inherited only a quarter of mortal-ness, whatever that might be.

But if Arwen is Peredhil, would you argue that also for Aragorn? How then would you resolve the statement in Appendix A,

By the [union of Arwen and Aragorn] the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored.

Surely the “long-sundered branches of the Half-elven� were the descendants of Elros and Elrond, and Aragorn was not Half-elven, too, was he?

[Galin]

(...) I would also object, as did the Númenórean Kings, that Elrond’s children obtained the right to choose to which race they would be accounted, while Elros’ children obtained no such grace: “once mortal, ever mortal”; but this was the same rule Mandos propounded, that Manwë had set aside for Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond. (And Tuor, but he is never mentioned in this argumentative context.)

Adopting the description at the end of the 1930s Silmarillion (that part which was not taken up into the 1977 Silmarillion), I interpret it this way so far, with emphasis on my interpretation...

Any person of mixed blood, having mortal blood in any measure, is mortal with respect to fate -- though being still 'mixed' with respect to heritage. As I see it, this was the will of God as revealed in the 1930s Silmarillion.

If so, with respect to the children of Elros Halfelven, by reason of Elros' choice, the 'natural order' was restored, so to speak. However the children of Elrond -- or any mortal-blooded child of 'one who chooses an Elvish fate' -- cannot be automatically mortal-fated, because then they would be automatically sundered from at least one parent, even possibly beyond death.

Nor can the children of an Elvish-fated parent, having some measure of mortal heritage, automatically be denied death -- escape from the Circles of the World, and Time.

So, in a sense it might be said to be inherent in the choice, before it is even made, that the 'fair rule' concerning the children of 'one who chooses an Elvish fate', includes that they too must be free to decide -- again, by God's 'edict' Elrond's children will otherwise be automatically mortal-fated, having mortal blood, and automatically sundered from Elrond.

It would hardly make the choice of 'immortality' easy if one's children must die as mortals. Still, as it turned out, Elrond suffered this great sundering from Arwen -- and in my opinion, I tend to lean toward his sons choosing mortality as well.


Again, this is nowhere stated by Tolkien, but something I've arrived at myself. Anyone can feel free to rend it! if anyone really feels it's problematic.

[Alcuin]

That’s pretty good! I think I rather like that: its fits all the loose ends into a nice, neat bundle. Is that a Tolkien rule of Arda thermodynamics: mortality is the lower energy level (http://shakespeare2ndlaw.oxy.edu/)?

Somehow, it rather fits, too: Elrond is separated from Arwen by his previous choice, which differs from hers, and Arwen suffers the same ambivalence about death as the Númenóreans whom she had scorned as “wicked fools”.

[Galin]

Thanks Alcuin! I've been trying it out on the web here and there -- not much negative reaction so far, but not much reaction of any kind so far, actually! Of course many have posted (before me) the idea that Elrond's children cannot be denied the escape of mortal death... but I don't remember seeing the 'sundering aspect' worked in before...

... and all based on something in the 1930s Silmarillion! There might be an unpublished letter out there that rends it all (if no one else does)... if so, and it comes to light one day, I'll add in advance: ah well! never mind.

:D

[Alcuin]

Schematic of Arwen’s lineage in terms of race and house. I can only insert graphics into this part of Entmoot while in Edit mode.

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg

Nope. Works in threads on The Hobbit (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=653277&postcount=21), but not in these. Here's the code:

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg

No graphics permitted in threads on Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings?

[The Mormegil]

just like Earendil was suffered on the shores of Valinor. when no mortal man would ever find the shores. it was a great exception. it is the great will of iluvatar.