How "Human" are wraiths?

[Tinman]

I've been contemplating this for a while... exactly how much humanity remains to the ring wraiths? Are they completely mindless? being actively controlled by Sauron? Are they capable of independent thought? Or are they more like robots?

This varries greatly depending on the source. The animated film would have us believe they are like lurching zombies.... while the jackson film seems more like unyeilding ghost warriors.

The books view is what im most interested in though... Gloin/Gimli say that one of them came to eribor to negotiate for the dwarf rings... are they still capable of social interactions then? Or was it more like he showed up with a paper listing Saurons demands and just handed it off?

I know the witchking and gandalf exchange words, as well as the shield maden (can't spell eyowen, and am too lazy to look it up :rolleyes:), but the witchking seems to be slightly different from the 8...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

One of them (Khamul?) spoke with the Gaffer, and also with Farmer Maggot.

They can interact with each other and with Elves and mortals. They'd be pretty poor servants if they needed Sauron's constant attention, wouldn't they? Also, how could WiKi rule Minas Morgul and Khamul Dol Guldur without some autonomy?

[Attalus]

The Ringwraiths retain all aspects of their humanity EXCEPT their bodies, long since *faded* after the manner of Elves that have remained in Midlle-Earth too long, and their Free Will, which they were tricked by Sauron into yielding through their acceptance of the unnatural power of the Nine Rings. Gandalf says of their robes, that they are "real robes, to give shape to their nothingness," and they must ride beasts that have grown used to them to travel with any speed. Nonetheless, they still can speak, though unpersuasively (except through fear) which helps them with evil creatures like the Southron, once a spy of Saruman, and Bill Ferny.

[Tinman]

And their intelligence?
Im trying to get a feel for just what these beings were...

I tried to use gollum as the missing link... kind of the halfway step between living and wraith... however this has the flaw that gollum was not human, was effected by a very different ring (though maybe governed by the same physics), and his insanity and decent into darkness was heavily influenced by living in a pitchblack cave for 500 years.

Are we though, to believe, that the wraiths were "gollum like" in their transition?

[Gordis]

I've been contemplating this for a while... exactly how much humanity remains to the ring wraiths? Are they completely mindless? being actively controlled by Sauron? Are they capable of independent thought? Or are they more like robots?

Grrr... Where did you get this idea, I wonder???:mad:

[The books view is what im most interested in though... Gloin/Gimli say that one of them came to eribor to negotiate for the dwarf rings... are they still capable of social interactions then? Or was it more like he showed up with a paper listing Saurons demands and just handed it off?
Erm, why not reread Gloin's account at the Council? The nazgul's exact words are given...

And their intelligence?
Oh, come on!:( The WK was a great King and a great sorceror, even Gandalf admitted that. He ruled Angmar highly successfully, unlike those Arnor dudes... And he ruled Minas Morgul for 1000 years, without any of those high-and-mighty Kings and Stewards of Gondor even attempting to regain it.
And he was the first and the last conqueror to pass through the Gates of Minas Tirith.
It was he who directed the assault on Minas Tirith, it was the hour of HIS victory, not Sauron's, strictly speaking.

I quote from LOTR:
But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons." - Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.114

"Now silently the host of Rohan moved forward into the field of Gondor, pouring in slowly but steadily, like the rising tide through breaches in the dike that men had thought secure. But the mind and will of the Black Captain were bent wholly on the falling city, and as yet no tidings came to him warning him that his designs held any flaw." - Siege of Gondor, Return of the King, p.111

And how brilliantly the WK had trapped Earnur, playing on the King's weaknesses:
"Eärnur had held the crown only seven years when the Lord of Morgul repeated his challenge, taunting the king that to the faint heart of his youth he had now added the weakness of age. Then Mardil could no longer restrain him, and he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul. None of that riding were ever heard of again. It was believed in Gondor that the faithless enemy had trapped the king, and that he had died in torment in Minas Morgul; but since there were no witnesses of his death, Mardil the Good Steward ruled Gondor in his name for many years." -Appendix A, Return of the King, p.331

I tried to use gollum as the missing link... kind of the halfway step between living and wraith... however this has the flaw that gollum was not human, was effected by a very different ring (though maybe governed by the same physics), and his insanity and decent into darkness was heavily influenced by living in a pitchblack cave for 500 years.
Exactly. Add to that that Gollum was "a mean son of a thief -L#181" from the very beginning, not one of the greatest men of their age handpicked by Sauron.

Are we though, to believe, that the wraiths were "gollum like" in their transition? No they weren't. Their starting points and their paths were different:
Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.Letter #212

[Attalus]

And, we should not forget the words of Gandalf, when asked what would have happened if the Morgul-knife had pierced Frodo's heart. "You would have become like they are, only weaker and under their control."

[Tinman]

So why did gollum become a frog man? Would the one ring have had this effect on bilbo? Isildur?

Would the 9 have turned hobbits into froglike creatures or into wraiths? Would gollum have become a wraith eventually

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If Gollum became a "frog man", it is from spending the better part of five centuries in the water. I think even the weakest swimmer of us could become masters of the water with that amount of time and practice.

If by "frog man" you mean he physically changed features by evolving/devolving/mutating/whatever, I'm not sure there's any non-movie evidence of that. He got really skinny, came to be able to see well in the dark, and became a really great swimmer. As I said, 500 years in the water of a cave will do that to you.

Unless I'm forgetting something...

[Tinman]

So we're blaming his inhuman sense of smell, ability to see in the dark, and mutated body (he did not pass as a hobbit any longer) on the evolution of 500 years spent in a cave, not the ring he used in that time?

[Gordis]

Well, the Ring enabled him to live these 500+ years. Without it, he would have died long before becoming adapted.

[Attalus]

"The Ring gave him power according to his stature." -Gandalf

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

inhuman sense of smell, ability to see in the dark, and mutated body

I'm not sure his sense of smell was "inhuman" or that his body was "mutated". Got any supporting text?

[Tinman]

Multiple times they mention his eyes changing colors depending on his mood...

"to his alarm Bilbo now saw two small
points of light peering at him. As suspicion grew in Gollum's mind, the light
of his eyes burned with a pale flame."

Normal hobbits eyes dont glow in the dark, change between green and yellow.

There are various mentions of elven materials burning his skin. Not normal to other hobbit physiology.

I can look those up later for you. I Dont my books on me right now.

[Tinman]

Also, i take it that since Bilbo could not tell that gollum was a hobbit, he had to be pretty much had to have been warped to some extent.

Show me a starved wild human... and i can still tell its a human.

[Attalus]

Aiiie, not the old "Was Gollum a Stoor" argument!!!:D

Seriously, the Nine were capable of wasting Mortal Men away to wraths, why would the One not be able to work some changes?

As far as the eyes changing color, that's a literary trope, often seen in novels but never in real life. (and I should know, I look at them professionally every day)

[Tinman]

Wait. Gandalf comes right out and says gollum was a hobbit at some time.

Whats your arguement against this?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Elvish rope and leaves didn't literally burn his hands any more than his eyes literally changed colors.

As for the burning, it was psychological most likely and perhaps psychosomatic, though I doubt that.

For the eyes, Attalus addressed that. It's a literary trope.

As for Bilbo not recognizing him as a Hobbit, when and where did Bilbo ever see him? In the pitch darkness of a cave, with the only light the dim glow of a sword showing that orcs were pretty far away. Ever been in a cave? There is no dark like it. I don't think Bilbo got any kind of a decent look at Gollum and his descriptions, such as they were, were based more on sounds and imagination than sight.

[Tinman]

If his "two big round pale eyes in his thin
face" were not really glowing on their own for bilbo to see them, then his sword would have been giving off more light than you're giving it credit for.

An orc claims he looks like like a "starved frog."

I also recall Sam noticing that his eyes changed colors while he talked to himself.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If we're going to take Gollum's eyes literally, we're going to also have to believe that the eyes of Elves emitted light, as well. I don't think many readers are willing to go there.

I can't tell you you're wrong. I can merely disagree with your conclusion. It's all good.

[Tinman]

Well, its not that im saying you're wrong, its just i can find quotes that seem to support this, but cant find quotes that conflict with it. Are there and lines that you might have in mind that conflict?

[Attalus]

Wait. Gandalf comes right out and says gollum was a hobbit at some time.

Whats your arguement against this?Gandalf says that he guessed that Gollum's family was akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors. This is not the same thing as saying that they were Stoors. He offers it as an informed guess, but note Frodo's heated disagreement.

As a matter of fact, I do think that Gollum was a proto-Hobbit, but much ink and more pixels have been devoted to the other side.

[Gordis]

I think Gandalf's words are another of the cases where the reminders of earlier conceptions were not removed or corrected in the beginning of LOTR. FOTR has a lot of them, in fact, and TT has a few.
The final clearer conceptions can be found in the Tale of Years, which was written about 10 years later than FOTR.
c 1150. The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass and move to the Angle, or to Dunland.
1356. King Argeleb I slain in battle with Rhudaur. About this time the Stoors leave the Angle, and some return to Wilderland.
2463 The White Council is formed. About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol.
Taking this into consideration, I don't think there is much to argue about.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Well, its not that im saying you're wrong, its just i can find quotes that seem to support this, but cant find quotes that conflict with it. Are there and lines that you might have in mind that conflict?
See the bold above. That's where the ambiguity lies. You take the quotes literally and I take them figuratively. We're not going to convince one another to change views and that's cool with me.

By the way, without taking the thread off on a tangent, where do you stand on the shining eyes of the Elves?

[Tinman]

I'm not sure what quote you're referring to on the elves eyes. But, without even reading it, I assume they had large eyes. Large to human standards, but not abnormally large to human standers (within physical human norm).

In which case you're right as we don't take this elf quote as a literal translation...

However... if thats the case, I think we stumlbed upon another "balrogs wings" debate :(

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

From the Silmarillion:For beside the old who deemed that their wandering days were over there were not a few who desired to go their own ways, and they feared the Eldar and the light of their eyes; and then dissensions awoke among the Edain, in which the shadow of Morgoth may be discerned, for certain it is that he knew of the coming of Men into Beleriand and of their growing friendship with the Elves.andThe Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible.

There are a couple examples. While searching through LotR for examples of shining, glowing, etc. eyes, there were too many to post, and not only applied to Gollum or Elves. Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, and others are all described with shining eyes much the same way that Gollum is. If some are literal and some figurative, how do we know?

Seems to me that they're all figurative. I'll try to post some quotes later on. I have a meeting...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The quotes below all come before we even arrive at the Council of Elrond. Few, if any, are literal. How do we know that those describing Gollum are literal or figurative?

Apologies for the apparent overkill, but maybe the complete list will prove useful in research for someone. That said, this isn't every occurrence of the word "eyes" but just the ones with some mention of shining, glowing, glinting, etc. that I thought relevant. There are a handful of other occurrences that I did not include because they were either about Gollum or they were only marginally relevant, in my opinion.

Gandalf looked again very hard at Bilbo, and there was a gleam in his eyes
Bilbo flushed, and there was an angry light in his eyes.
The wizard’s face remained grave and attentive, and only a flicker in his deep eyes showed that he was startled and indeed alarmed.
Gandalf’s eyes flashed.
but his eyes were as bright as ever, and he smoked and blew smoke-rings with the same vigour and delight.
Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted.
His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within.
Gandalf’s eyes flashed and his brows stuck out like bristles.
He had a blue coat and a long brown beard; his eyes were blue and bright,
But I see you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it.
‘Eh, what?’ said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom.
Tom wagged his head up and down, and there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders.
‘Hey there!’ cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes.
He thought there were two eyes, very cold though lit with a pale light that seemed to come from some remote distance.
He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller. In his eyes gleamed a light, keen and commanding.
His eyes shone, and his voice was rich and deep.
Their cold eyes glittered, and they called to him with fell voices.
But glory and trumpets!' he cried, turning round again with shining eyes and dancing on the floor.
Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music;
The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost, her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night;
Arwen turned towards him, and the light of her eyes fell on him from afar and pierced his heart.

[Tinman]

My support:

Now and again it lifted its head slowly, turning it right back on its long skinny neck, and the hobbits caught a glimpse of two small pale gleaming lights, its eyes that blinked at the moon for a moment and then were quickly lidded again.

and

Gollum was talking to himself. Sméagol was holding a debate with some other thought that used the same voice but made it squeak and hiss. A pale light and a green light alternated in his eyes as he spoke.

and

He set his two large flat hands on his shrunken belly, and a pale green light came into his eyes.

and

Then his eyes shone with a green-white light, reflecting the noisome Morgul-sheen perhaps, or kindled by some answering mood within.

These quotes, specificly the second, seem to indicate that his eyes are in fact changing color and illuminessence, and not just figuratively.

[Tinman]

Also, doesn't physical corruption fit in with the concepts of the decent to malkor. Kinda like the theory that orcs are corrupt men/elves (Not that i wanna start that argument, but you get the point)

[Attalus]

As I said, these are all literary tropes: cf. "a twinkle in her eye."

[Tinman]

Since when has the changing of eye color been concidered a literary trope

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The problem, Tinman, is that if Gollum's eyes do in fact change in light and color, the question arises about Aragorn, Frodo, Gandalf, Arwen, Glofrindel, Samwise, the Nazgul, and all the other people Tolkien uses the same sorts of phrasing for.

It isn't that it's impossible to write figuratively about some people and literally about others, but if an author does so, there has to be some way to tell the difference and thus far I can't see any. Tolkien describes the eyes of all sorts of people as flashing, glinting, shining, dimming, etc. and we have no mechanism for determining when he's being figurative and when it's literal.

Absent some sort of clear difference between the literal and figurative descriptions, and logically knowing they can't all be literal, we simply can't say if any are literal.

[The last sane person]

*Pokes head in*

This is true, especially since he used such descriptions like "The Tallest", "The Fairest", "The Strongest", etc. for just about every damn elf he cared to introduce. :D

Which of said descriptions "eyes glinted" and so on applied to a character, do you think he meant literally, and when does he give an example of that? If ever? Because Tolkien's rather hap-hazard way of adding these physical descriptions, especially in conjuction with "evil" characters always confounded me.

[Gordis]

There is a good theory that the objects that emit light in the world of Shadow are visible even in the World of Light. Elendilmir was such a thing:

Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth. But the Elendilmir of the West could not be quenched, and suddenly it blazed forth red and wrathful as a burning star. Men and Orcs gave way in fear; and Isildur, drawing a hood over his head, vanished into the night.-UT, the Disaster...

Nazgul eyes could sometimes be seen by the World of Light observers, because, presumably, their eyes also emitted light:
A crown of steel he bore, but between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly gleam of eyes: the Lord of the Nazgûl.
Most of the time nazgul eyes remain unseen, so they blaze only when the owner is excited or angry. Look at this illustration :D:

Meet the Nazgul by ~The-Black-Panther (http://the-black-panther.deviantart.com/art/Meet-the-Nazgul-21020949)

[Attalus]

Since when has the changing of eye color been concidered a literary tropeSince Homer described Achilles with "flashing eyes." You may have heard of him. Or, more recently, when Henry Fielding (in Joseph Andrews) described Pamela's eyes as "usually blue, but sometimes grey as the evening skies."
Edit to add, from Ellis Peters' The Holy Thief: Small flames of interest and liking kindled in Donata's hollow eyes. I hasten to add that Donata is a mortal woman, actually dying of "a wasting sickness."