Accuracy of Tolkien’s physical descriptions of characters

[Alcuin]

I have one last question before I must return to the salt-mines of Núrnen for the foreseeable future. It may strike some of you as a little odd or morbid.

Attalus, does Tolkien’s description of Théoden’s death – the labored breathing, the quiet speech, restricted motion, etc. – match clinical experience of people who have suffered severe chest trauma? After all, first his horse fell on him, and then, if I’ve read “Pelennor Field” correctly, rolled over him. Assuming that Snowmane is good-sized animal, he might weight anywhere from 1000 or 1200 pounds to as much as 2000 pounds. Is it reasonable that Théoden survived that long after that kind of trauma, or is this just literature?

When you read Lord of the Rings, do the physical descriptions of the reactions or experiences of the characters sound like what you have seen?

BTW, the British Medical Journal (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/329/7480/1435?HITS=10&hits=10&volume=329&stored_search=&maxtoshow=&FIRSTINDEX=0&fulltext=gollum&issue=7480&searchid=1103349387213_18575&RESULTFORMAT=) published a report describing the mental condition of Gollum based upon Tolkien’s descriptions. (Available for free with registration.) The commentaries and letters (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/329/7480/1435) are good, too, particularly the one that claims (tongue-in-cheek, before anyone gets antsy!) the BMJ breached patient confidentiality (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/329/7480/1435#90381) by publishing Gollum’s name and picture.

[Gordis]

I wonder had "Snowmane in his agony rolled away from [Theoden] again" before or after the Fell Beast settled upon the body of the horse? In the latter case you have to add the weight of the Fell Beast+ the WK in armor. :eek:

Curious this article in BMJ. Thank you for sharing, Alcuin!:D

But I have noticed it is movieverse. They mention only loincloth, but Gollum did have clothes in the book. Also he ate not only fish, but meat as well: orcs, all manner of young creatures in Mirkwood. Nothing is said about his aversion to all things Elvish etc.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

IIRC, Drew Bledsoe once played a half (more or less) of a football game with busted ribs and a punctured lung. I think a tough guy like Theoden could squeeze out a few sentences after being rolled over by a horse. But I'll gladly defer to our resident physician.

[Earniel]

After all, first his horse fell on him, and then, if I’ve read “Pelennor Field” correctly, rolled over him.It is possible that Snowmane didn't roll entirely over Theoden, if it missed the head and the upper part of the torso, I'd say Theoden could hang on a little while. There's also his armour to consider, it may have prevented more immediate injury.

When you read Lord of the Rings, do the physical descriptions of the reactions or experiences of the characters sound like what you have seen?
Aside from magical things, for the moment I can't recall a single event that struck me as misrepresented.

[Rían]

Interesting topic! We'll have to get Inked over here, too.

JRRT did active duty in WWI, right? So I imagine he'd be familiar with various wounds and how people reacted to them. Not as a trained medical person, but just plain old experience.

[Coffeehouse]

Oh I think JRRT saw more than just sounds and reactions. He was in the trenches of the Western Front.. :( ..pure carnage. I imagine he saw ruined and dead bodies, mates die from hunger, cold, disease, bullet wounds, explosions, the list could be disturbingly long.

That war must have had some profound effects on him which I think come to life in the comradeship of Frodo and Sam particularly.

[Rían]

I said wounds, not sounds, and I didn't mean reactions like emotional reactions. I meant that he probably SAW a person crushed by something heavy, and saw how they physically reacted, and translated this to Theoden being crushed by his horse.

Yes, I'm sure Frodo and Sam's relationship was profoundly affected by his experience in war.

[Attalus]

I have one last question before I must return to the salt-mines of Núrnen for the foreseeable future. It may strike some of you as a little odd or morbid.

Attalus, does Tolkien’s description of Théoden’s death – the labored breathing, the quiet speech, restricted motion, etc. – match clinical experience of people who have suffered severe chest trauma? After all, first his horse fell on him, and then, if I’ve read “Pelennor Field” correctly, rolled over him. Assuming that Snowmane is good-sized animal, he might weight anywhere from 1000 or 1200 pounds to as much as 2000 pounds. Is it reasonable that Théoden survived that long after that kind of trauma, or is this just literature?

When you read Lord of the Rings, do the physical descriptions of the reactions or experiences of the characters sound like what you have seen?

BTW, the British Medical Journal (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/329/7480/1435?HITS=10&hits=10&volume=329&stored_search=&maxtoshow=&FIRSTINDEX=0&fulltext=gollum&issue=7480&searchid=1103349387213_18575&RESULTFORMAT=) published a report describing the mental condition of Gollum based upon Tolkien’s descriptions. (Available for free with registration.) The commentaries and letters (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/329/7480/1435) are good, too, particularly the one that claims (tongue-in-cheek, before anyone gets antsy!) the BMJ breached patient confidentiality (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/329/7480/1435#90381) by publishing Gollum’s name and picture.

No sweat, Alcuin. People with crushing chest injuries have very labored breathing and it makes it very difficult (and painful!) for them to talk. For this reason, I have always considered Theoden to have suffered a broken back, probably associated with crushing abdominal injuries (lacerated liver or spleen) untreatable at the time, and causing rapid, but not instantaneous death from exsanguination. One would expect death in 30-60 minutes, which does fit into the time frame.

[hectorberlioz]

Well, we know that Tolkien was very concerned with authenticity. Did anyone here know that he actually made the big red record book that the fellowship finds in Moria?

So, while he may have been off a bit here and there, I trust JRRT never wrote anything he didn't know about himself. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli's run is pretty incredible physically, but it was meant to be in the books as well.

[Earniel]

Tolkien at least made an illustration of the last page of the book of Mazarbul to be included in his work. I do believe reading in Letters that it eventually was booted for other illustrations, but it does exists. A quick image search will quickly bring up a few copies.

EDIT: Ah, I see you wrote 'did anyone know that' instead of 'does anyone know if'. I misread, sorry.

[Alcuin]

No sweat, Alcuin. People with crushing chest injuries have very labored breathing and it makes it very difficult (and painful!) for them to talk. For this reason, I have always considered Theoden to have suffered a broken back, probably associated with crushing abdominal injuries (lacerated liver or spleen) untreatable at the time, and causing rapid, but not instantaneous death from exsanguination. One would expect death in 30-60 minutes, which does fit into the time frame.Thank you, Attalus. I had never understood what had happened. Many thanks.