The Hunt for the Ring

[Gordis]

Here is the thread to discuss the "Hunt for the Ring" as described in the texts published in Unfinished Tales (UT) and Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion (RC).

I propose to concentrate on the second part of the Hunt, starting with the moment when the Ringwraiths broke the guard of Rangers at Sarn Ford and entered the Shire and ending with the debacle at the ford of Bruinen (September 22-October 20, 3018). We can also discuss the earlier events if we feel like it.

Here we can discuss the timing of various events, whether the nazgul showed competence or ineptitude and what mistakes they have made and why.

I have prepared a few maps with the movements of the Black Riders. but first of all I will post the time-schemes I have prepared and explain how I made them.

As you all may have noticed, Tolkien schemes depicting the movement of the Black Riders published in RC lack an important element: letters (A-I) denoting individual Riders had been edited out. (That's why there are lots of square brackets in the text). Why it was done I cannot say, and I think it was an extremely BAD idea - a wealth of information had been lost.:(

I have managed to re-introduce the letters in the RC text - at least most of them. For this I used two earlier time-schemes (these two with letters for the individual riders, both published in HOME 7: one on p.13, another on page 71). I have compared them with the account in the "Hunt for the Ring" RC and found that the first one (p.13) agrees with RC well, while the other one on p. 71 contradicts it. The reason for it is that the scheme published on p.71 (HOME7) reflects a different subplot, later abandoned: the Riders DE (Khamul and his companion) capture Hamilcar Bolger at Crickhollow on September 26 and carry him to the captain at Andrath. As the attack on Crckhollow in this version happens three days before it happens in LOTR, the same two nazgul DE are later sent to Bree, thus according to this version Khamul is in charge of the attacks both at Crickhollow and in Bree. Of course in the final version such thing is impossible: Khamul is a worthy nazgul, but even he cannot be in two places at once.:D

As for the time-sheme found in HOME 7, p.13, it differs little from the account in RC, only the latter is more complete. I quote this time-scheme in full:
From "Gandalf's Delay" in Home 7 "The treason of Isengard", p.13

Scheme D also provides an account of the movements of the individual Riders, who are identified by the letters A to I. It was D who came to Hobbiton on 23 September, the night on which Frodo left, and it was D and E who trailed the hobbits in the Shire, while G H I were on the East Road and F was to the southward. On the 25th, the day that Frodo reached Crickhollow, DEGHI assembled at the Brandywine Bridge; G waited there while H and I passed through Bree on Monday the 26th. On the
27th D and E 'got into Buckland and looked for Baggins'; on the 28th they 'located' him and went to get the help of G. On the night of the 29th DEG crossed the River by the Ferry; and on the same night H and I returned and attacked The Prancing Pony. Pursued by Gandalf from Crickhollow DEG fled to the King. ABCDEFG 'rode East after Gandalf and the supposed Baggins' on 1 October; F and G were sent direct to Weathertop, and the other five, together with H and I, rode through Bree at night, throwing down the gates, and from the inn (where Gandalf was) the noise of their passage was heard like a wind. F and G reached Weathertop on the 2nd; Gandalf was pursued North from Weathertop by C D E, while A B F G H I patrolled the East Road.


Using this scheme, I have reinserted the letters denoting individual riders (A-I) into the RC text, with a bit of uncertainty only in 2-3 cases.

Difficulties I have encountered:
1. F in the HOME account appears to be part of Khamul's group of six. His position is described as "to the southward". Later he sort of disappears from screen and reappears already at Andrath. In the RC account, Khamul's group counts five nazgul (including Khamul himself), while F seems to be a member of the WK's group of four (ABCF) guarding the borders of the Shire and Bree-Land. I have voluntarily left F to guard Sarn Ford, as this position seems the only one to agree with both accounts.

2.Another ambiguity arises when out of the group of FGHI I have to choose one to guard Weathertop. the four Black Riders who were sent ahead assemble near Weathertop. [One] remains [while three] go on eastwards on or near Road - RC p 167
I have chosen again the same "problematic" F , just to make the layout of the table easier. Maybe Tolkien intended G or H to stay, who knows. As the result of my choice, F later falls into the group following Gandalf, while GHI remain on the main road.

3.And finally, at the very last stages of the hunt, five nazgul were on the Great road. They were divided into 2 groups, WK with one other nazgul and Khamul with two others. But which one of GHI was chosen to travel with the Captain is impossible to tell.


Dramatis personae: The Witch King (A) and eight nazgul, often divided into four pairs: BC, DE, FG, HI. Note it was also the way they had crossed Enedwaith and Minhiriath:
Now [the WK] divided his company into four pairs, and they rode separately, but he himself went ahead with the swiftest pair. Thus they passed west out of Rohan, and explored the desolation of Enedwaith, and came at last to Tharbad. Thence they rode through Minhiriath -UT

A is the Witch-King, Black Captain. Directed the operation from Andrath, visited the Barrows, then rode to Weathertop, fought with Gandalf, attacked Frodo, then patrolled the road to the Ford.

BC are two nazgul, who remain with the Captain at Andrath to guard the Breeland from the south and from the East. From Weathertop were sent to follow Gandalf north-east. Prepared the ambush at the Ford. BC always stick together. Likely they are the strongest of the Eight.

D is Khamul, the Shadow of the East, Lieutenant of Dol Guldur and Second to the chief. "He was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.-UT" Directed the search of the Shire, the attack on Crickhollow, on Oct. 3-6 guarded Weathertop with the Witch-King, later guarded the Bridge of Mitheithel.

E is Khamul's companion and messenger from Dol Guldur. At the beginning of the Hunt he was never far from Khamul (leading the blind man around in day-time, most likely). Later became separated from Khamul and was in the group that followed Gandalf.

F - This one had to ride a lot: twice made a round-trip to Weathertop. He is the third nazgul in Bree, who was sent to the WK with the news, but got waylaid by the Dunedain. Uncharacteristically, F was separated from his pair G from the start and also by the end. F often operated alone.

G - Was separated from F and added to DE, guarded the horses and the Bridge over Baranduin, then was riding with HI, also traveled a lot.

HI - inseparable pair, the two nazgul in Bree. Also had to ride a lot.

HERE ARE MY TIME-SCHEMES

Time scheme page 1 (https://vgy.me/fnAxCZ.jpg)
Time-scheme page 2 (https://vgy.me/CjzA2b.jpg)

HERE ARE MY MAPS

1.Shire_Sept 22-26 (https://vgy.me/vZvjag.jpg)
2.Bree_Sept 26-29 (https://vgy.me/Fzbpyi.jpg)
3.Bree-Weathertop_Sept 30-Oct 3 (https://vgy.me/nE3QV2.jpg)
4.Weahertop_Oct 3-6 (https://vgy.me/CetvYP.jpg)

Please have a look, so we can start the discussion.:)

[Alcuin]

I propose we henceforth refer to the hapless H and I as “Frick and Frack�.

-|-

This is very thorough. It will take a while to go through all of it.

(As we work through the exercise, it is worth considering which of the Nazgûl might be the other two Númenóreans. B and C are obvious choices, because the Witch-king seems to keep them with him, and because in making a list, Tolkien might start by listing the three fallen Númenóreans first; after all, Khamûl is surely D, “the vanguard Rider� who reached Bag End, and he is the “second to the Chief� (Glossary, UT). Khamûl should naturally have been designated B unless there were some other compelling reason to list him fourth (D). F and G might also good choices, because they each appear to work well independently.)

[Coffeehouse]

Please have a look, so we can start the discussion.:)

Excellent. I'll read it all when I get the time, which probably won't be before the weekend due to the ridiculous amount of studying I have on my hands:mad::rolleyes:

This will be fun;)

[Alcuin]

I have problem right away, not with the timeline you’ve laid out, Gordis, but with dates and timelines in the published texts.

“Tale of Years” says Gandalf escaped Sept 18 SR 1418. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen the same day. Unfinished Tales “Hunt for the Ring” (p 339 in my Houghton Mifflin hardback) says the Nazgûl reached Isengard two days later, Sept 20, and spoke to Saruman without profit. Sept 20 is also the day Gandalf meets Théoden and starts looking for Shadowfax. Sept 21, According to Unfinished Tales “Hunt for the Ring”, the Nazgûl capture Wormtongue in the evening and learn where the Shire is (p 340). Then “Tale of Years” says the Nazgûl chase off the Rangers at Sarn Ford on the evening of September 22.

Let’s say they caught Wormtongue on the main road at the Dol Baran near the North-South Road (the south end of the Greenway, near where Aragorn met his Rangers of the North and the sons of Elrond), and that they know exactly where they’re going and exactly how to get there. It’s 250–275 miles to Tharbad, which is a dangerous crossing (Boromir lost his horse there), and another 150–160 miles to Sarn Ford. (Those are straight lines.) At 40 miles per day for a mounted rider – and I’m no horseman, but I think that’s a very respectable pace for both the horse and the rider – that should be 10 days of travel.

Now, there is an alternate version (p 346) that has the Nazgûl arriving at Isengard just before Gandalf escapes. That would still be September 18, and we still need 9 Nazgûl at Sarn Ford a mere four days later. CJRT notes in Unfinished Tales “Hunt for the Ring”, footnote 17 that from “The Tale of Years”, this version of the story seems to be one his father adopted . Even so, the Nazgûl must still move more than 100 miles a day, making an extremely dangerous crossing of the Greyflood three-fifths of the way, which would be before noon (or midnight, if there were travelling at night) of the third day.

Again, this isn’t part of the timeline Gordis has laid out. But this is a problem in the texts as they stand, unless there is something somewhere else that I’ve missed, or I’ve completely misread the material (which would not be unprecedented).

[Gordis]

This is very thorough. It will take a while to go through all of it.
I propose to go through it together, slowly, stage by stage, day by day, pinpointing uncertainties and mistakes and assessing nazgul performance.

The first question would be to assess the Captain's order to divide into 2 main groups: ABCF and DEGHI.

I think it became necessary because too many rangers (5-10?) have escaped the slaughter of Sarn Ford and were likely to bring help. Maybe some Elves were also spotted. Thus it became necessary for the strongest nazgul to remain on the eastern and southern borders of the Shire and Breeland. Though: why did they expect aid coming from South and South-east along the Greenway and not from the North or East along the Great Road?:confused:

I propose we henceforth refer to the hapless H and I as “Frick and Frack”.

We might, but note BC are even more "Frick and Frack-ish than HI. ;) BC never separated, while H and I took different roads in the Shire.

(As we work through the exercise, it is worth considering which of the Nazgûl might be the other two Númenóreans. B and C are obvious choices, because the Witch-king seems to keep them with him, and because in making a list, Tolkien might start by listing the three fallen Númenóreans first; after all, Khamûl is surely D, “the vanguard Rider” who reached Bag End, and he is the “second to the Chief” (Glossary, UT). Khamûl should naturally have been designated B unless there were some other compelling reason to list him fourth (D). F and G might also good choices, because they each appear to work well independently.)
It is not exactly true that the WK always kept BC with him: after 3.10, B and C (together with F and E) were sent to follow Gandalf, and likely B was in command of the group. I guess B may well be "Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul" who took the command at the Pelennor after WK's death.
Anyway, I believe B and C were the strongest combat fighters of the Eight. Does it mean they were Numenoreans? It seems likely: a Numenorean was necessarily taller and stronger physically than say an Easterliing, it goes with the race. And physical strength meant a lot in Middle-Age fights with huge swords, maces etc. On the other hand an Easterling or a Southron may have been better trained (though in 4 thousand years they all likely became quite well trained).

Also the endurance to daylight may have been a factor in choosing BC. They had to guard the Greenway day and night, even in the Captain's absence.

The choice of F to operate alone and guard Sarn Ford may also be due to his daylight resistance. He was not very strong overall, as we know this guy was later waylaid by the Dunedain at night (Sept. 29-30). But maybe by day he was stronger than say, Khamul. Note that IF both B and C were Numenoreans, F couldn't have been another one: there were but three in all, including A.

E, by the way, though weaker than Khamûl (D), was surely not so blind by daylight. He clearly led his patron D through the Central Shire to Hobbiton during daytime of Sept. 23. See here the route of DE from the South to Hobbiton (https://vgy.me/vZvjag.jpg).

Can we suppose that Khamûl's buddy E was also an Easterling and they called to each other in some long-forgotten Eastern tongue? Maybe G was assigned to their group because he was the third Easterling?

And in general, is it reasonable to suppose there were 3 Numenoreans, 3 Easterlings and 3 Southrons? I have met this theory several times on different forums.

Or maybe there were 3 Numenoreans, 2 Easterlings, 2 Southrons and 2 Northmen akin to the ancestors of the Rohirrim? I think the latter would be closer to the mark: in mid Second Age the ancestors of the Rohirrim had to be there somewhere in Rhovanion or to the North-East of it, well within Sauron's sphere of interest. They were tall and strong people, racially close to the House of Hador. This theory would make the division in pairs according to the race quite easy:
BC Numenoreans
DE Easterlings of mongoloid (?) (Edit: not at all sure here) races
FG and HI Northmen and Southrons

Interesting to note that the Gaffer had great pains to understand Khamul's Westron ("he spoke funny"), while according to the drafts, the nazgul in Bree were not easy to understand either: maybe they were Southrons?

Here comes my other far-fetched speculation ;): Edanic nazgul (ABC + the Northmen: FG) were more resistant to daylight than the Southrons HI and Easterlings DE.

Thoughts?

[Gordis]

I have problem right away, not with the timeline you’ve laid out, Gordis, but with dates and timelines in the published texts.

“Tale of Years” says Gandalf escaped Sept 18 SR 1418. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen the same day. Unfinished Tales “Hunt for the Ring” (p 339 in my Houghton Mifflin hardback) says the Nazgûl reached Isengard two days later, Sept 20, and spoke to Saruman without profit. Sept 20 is also the day Gandalf meets Théoden and starts looking for Shadowfax. Sept 21, According to Unfinished Tales “Hunt for the Ring”, the Nazgûl capture Wormtongue in the evening and learn where the Shire is (p 340). Then “Tale of Years” says the Nazgûl chase off the Rangers at Sarn Ford on the evening of September 22.

Let’s say they caught Wormtongue on the main road at the Dol Baran near the North-South Road (the south end of the Greenway, near where Aragorn met his Rangers of the North and the sons of Elrond), and that they know exactly where they’re going and exactly how to get there. It’s 250–275 miles to Tharbad, which is a dangerous crossing (Boromir lost his horse there), and another 150–160 miles to Sarn Ford. (Those are straight lines.) At 40 miles per day for a mounted rider – and I’m no horseman, but I think that’s a very respectable pace for both the horse and the rider – that should be 10 days of travel.

Now, there is an alternate version (p 346) that has the Nazgûl arriving at Isengard just before Gandalf escapes. That would still be September 18, and we still need 9 Nazgûl at Sarn Ford a mere four days later. CJRT notes in Unfinished Tales “Hunt for the Ring”, footnote 17 that from “The Tale of Years”, this version of the story seems to be one his father adopted . Even so, the Nazgûl must still move more than 100 miles a day, making an extremely dangerous crossing of the Greyflood three-fifths of the way, which would be before noon (or midnight, if there were travelling at night) of the third day.

Again, this isn’t part of the timeline Gordis has laid out. But this is a problem in the texts as they stand, unless there is something somewhere else that I’ve missed, or I’ve completely misread the material (which would not be unprecedented).
The speed of the nazgul horses was discussed here (see post 7), in one of my first threads on Entmoot.Nazgul horses (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12200)
The great ride of Gandalf from Edoras to Sarn Ford was described in detail on p. 252 RC. Seems the nazgul horses were only a tad slower than Shadowfax.

But, as far as I understand, Chris Tolkien seemingly was wrong as to the version his father had chosen as final. There was another version described only in RC p. 241-3. In this one the nazgul visited Saruman very early, "towards early? June", even before Gandalf was captured.

Anyway, I propose to leave the beginning of the Hunt for another thread. There is a lot to discuss about the period Sept 22-Oct 20 as it is.;)

[Alcuin]

The Gaffer might have had trouble understanding Denethor and his archaic way of speaking Westron: like an extremely rural, half-deaf outback American or Australian farmer trying to discern what the Marquess of Milford Haven was asking him. Worse, the Nazgûl are so old, it’s not the current Marquess, who speaks modern English, but more like a contemporary of Chaucer. (Look at the deliberately archaic – and insulting – way that the Witch-king addresses Éowyn using the familiar thee/thou/thy) And worst of all, Westron wasn’t Khamûl’s native tongue, as you have noted.


This ... would make the division in pairs ... quite easy:
BC Numenoreans
DE Easterlings...
FG and HI Northmen and Southrons

...Edanic nazgul (ABC + the Northmen: FG) were more resistant to daylight than the Southrons HI and Easterlings DE.
Sounds reasonable.


-|-

(Added later)

The speed of the nazgul horses was discussed here (see post 7), in one of my first threads on Entmoot.Nazgul horses (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12200)
The great ride of Gandalf from Edoras to Sarn Ford was described in detail on p. 252 RC. Seems the nazgul horses were only a tad slower than Shadowfax.

Fonstad says Gandalf with Pippin rode Shadowfax 120 miles/day to Mins Tirith from Dol Baran, and the Rohirrim rode about 80 miles a day. My straight-line measure is about 60 miles/day for the Rohirrim and 75 miles/day for Shadowfax. Grumph!

But, as far as I understand, Chris Tolkien seemingly was wrong as to the version his father had chosen as final. There was another version described only in RC p. 241-3. In this one the nazgul visited Saruman very early, "towards early? June", even before Gandalf was captured.

Anyway, I propose to leave the beginning of the Hunt for another thread. There is a lot to discuss about the period Sept 22-Oct 20 as it is.;)Very well.

[Gordis]

So, let us take the first day, September 23. In early hours the five riders DEGHI invaded the Shire and rode through it during the day.

[One G] keeps to the east, passing northwards towards the Marish and Bridge. [One H] takes road leading northwest to Michel Delving, and [another I] goes with him, but there ?fares on and traverses the North Farthing. [Khamûl and his companion DE] go through the central Shire, until they reach the East Road, probably near the Three-Farthing Stone. - RC p. 97

I would say that although the maps taken from the Isengarder clearly pointed to Hobbiton as the prime target:
The Witch-king also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him: Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and enquiry.-UT, still much of the Shire territory had been covered.
See the map here (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/Gor-Dis/1shirebig.jpg) - the riders are moving up north from Sarn Ford in three main directions: through western Shire (HI), central Shire (DE) and eastern Shire (G).

G rides through Marish directly to the Bridge of Stonebows, the principal exit from the Shire, and stays there to guard it.
Maybe G missed the existence of the Ferry, maybe he noted it while he passed by - anyway it was a serious mistake not to guard it as well. Maybe it was due to the fact that G was alone, so even if he saw the ferry, he still had to move on and guard the bridge as he was told?

By nightfall on the 23 G must have reached the bridge, H and I arrived to Michel Delving on the Great road and D (Khamul) and E came to Three-Farthing Stone. At nightfall the nazgul pairs separated, no doubt feeling surer of themselves in the dark.

I made his round-trip through the North Farthing (must have taken him all night) and H made his way eastwards along the Great road.

E keeps an eye on the East Road and Stock Road, lurking probably between the two, just south of Whitfurrows. [Khamûl D] just misses Frodo, and misled by the Gaffers [sic] starts out east again.

Khamul was alone when he visited Hobbiton. Why didn't he take his companion with him and had a good look at Bag End? After all Hobbiton was the main target, where Baggins was reportedly living: why only one nazgul there?

[jammi567]

One thing that I don't get about the Nazgul movements is why I made that massive round trip all on his own? If they had the maps, then they had to have known that there was no chance that Baggins would be up there. Unless it was a conginsency thing, just in case Baggins had changed location since Gollum had last encountered him.

As to your question, maybe it was because they realized that if they travelled in pairs or more, then they would have made themselves practically unapprachable by any sane person, even when they are fully covered up. I don't have the book on me at the moment, but I'm sure it mentioned something like that in Unfinished Tales.

[Alcuin]

We should bear in mind that the Witch-king and his loathsome companions probably believed that the Ringbearer was more likely to flee to Lindon than to Rivendell. Certainly that was Elrond’s first reaction to deal with the Ring: the road to the West was too easy, and too easily guessed: too often the Elves had taken that road, and only a harder one would do. From one perspective, sending the Ring to Lindon and then marching it in force to Rivendell, had that been the Bearer’s destination, would have seemed wiser, at least from the viewpoint of the servants of Sauron: it would have been more easily defended and better guarded. So H and I had to be certain that there were no escapes west or north. (The Grey Havens were almost due west of Hobbiton, while the ruins of Annúminas were almost due north.) So that movement makes sense to me.

The Nazgûl had the maps of the Isengarder spy. (Their vision could not have been so bad that they could not read the maps in any event.) So G moved to cut off the only escape to the east from the Shire, at least, the only one he could know about. Remember, Buckland wasn’t marked on any maps, and unless he noticed the side road to the Buckleberry Ferry, he would have missed the ferry altogether. I imagine it was something of a surprise for Khamûl to find his prey poling off across the “Elvish Baranduin�.

Gordis, this seems pretty solid to me. At least it is reasonable, and it fits the texts you have cited. My observations are these: Both the inset map in Fonstad’s atlas and the map of the Shire in the front of The Fellowship of the Ringwould seem to indicate that the main road from Sarn Ford passed through Sackville, Whitwell, and joined the Great East Road at Waymeet (hence its name, no doubt). It was fortunate for Frodo and his companions that there were no main road (maybe backroads) directly from San Ford to Hobbiton. It looks as if the road north from Longbottom stopped at Pincup, so I would assume that what was available through the hills were smaller, winding, less travelled ways. There appears to be no direct main route to the Marish from Sarn Ford at all, and there are two streams cutting the way (only one after Willowbottom) and a marsh. Did Khamûl and E come cross-country, or through Waymeet? Best of all for Frodo, Saruman’s spies had not mapped Buckland, so that created some difficulty for the Nazgûl: not only were they unaware of it (G probably figured it out once he reached the Bridge, but had no way of exploring it himself without leaving his post, and no good means of alerting the others at such a distance), they were at something of a loss to make their way through it.

As for Khamûl and the visit to Hobbiton, I don’t know why only one of the Nazgûl went. I do know that, according to RC, 176 (I: 178) (elisions and bracket are not mine, but from the text in this citation), the Witch-king was

elated to learn that the Ring really was in the Shire, but is alarmed and angry at its escape; and also by the fact that the Bearer must know that he is being hunted. (If he is a person of power and knowledge he may find out how to use it, and compel a Nazgûl to leave him unmolested at he least. But [he is told that Khamûl] ahs discovered that the Bearer is a v[ery]small spiritless creature with no pride or willpower, and is filled with terror at the approach of a Nazgûl.)

Here are several clues to the purposes of the hunters. First, if the Bearer “is a person of power and knowledge he may find out how to use it, and compel a Nazgûl to leave him unmolested at he least.â€� Which brings up the possibility that he might be able to do more than “the least,â€� and actually compel a Nazgûl to help him. One can imagine the result had Aragorn, CÃ*rdan, Elrond, Gandalf, or Saruman (who had spent centuries studying the Rings) come into confrontation with two Nazgûl, “recruitedâ€� them into service; learned from them the plans, locations, and devices of the others; and one by one or two by two picked them off. For the Witch-king and his fellows, things could hardly have turned out worse than that: no doubt several of them might have been destroyed, or at least damaged, while their new master and their old (who still held their Nine Rings) quarreled over original claims versus possession of the property. One Nazgûl at a time, and if one met a new Master, perhaps another could warn the rest of them, so that they would at least not be caught unprepared.

Another is that the Nazgûl were hunting: they wanted most to prevent the Bearer’s escape, and to that end they laid a net around the Shire, which they slowly drew and tightened, with Khamûl going right into the heart of the Shire. If the Bearer fled along any of the main roads and egresses from the little country, they would catch him: Khamûl was like a hunting hound, and if he could catch the Ringbearer himself, then excellent; otherwise, he would chase the Bearer into the waiting arms of another Nazgûl.

[Gordis]

One thing that I don't get about the Nazgul movements is why I made that massive round trip all on his own? If they had the maps, then they had to have known that there was no chance that Baggins would be up there. Unless it was a conginsency thing, just in case Baggins had changed location since Gollum had last encountered him.

As to your question, maybe it was because they realized that if they traveled in pairs or more, then they would have made themselves practically unapprachable by any sane person, even when they are fully covered up. I don't have the book on me at the moment, but I'm sure it mentioned something like that in Unfinished Tales.

Great you have joined the discussion, Jammi!:)
I think Alcuin's answer to your first question is very good. They had to check all exits from the Shire and cover more ground. The move of the Ring towards Lindon was quite possible.

As to the nazgul separating to make themselves more "approachable", I think it was not the real reason. Two nazgul together could make inquiries in Bree without causing much fear. I believe they separated at nightfall just to be able to check more roads.
It would have been more profitable to separate from the start, but seemingly with these half-blind in daylight guys (DE and HI) it was simply impossible. It is about 100 miles from Sarn Ford to the Great Road that passes through the Shire: it must have taken them all day to get there. Nightfall of Sept 23 must have occurred just as they came to the Road. And it was exactly where they broke their pairs.

[Gordis]

Alcuin - thank you for your great input and corrections. Indeed I should have paid more attention to the course of the Shire roads. I have modified my map accordingly. :) Great job!
Here is the modified map THE MODIFIED SHIRE MAP 1 (https://vgy.me/SCfJF9.jpg)
The map I used is Fonstad's map of the Shire[/URL]
The Nazgûl had the maps of the Isengarder spy. (Their vision could not have been so bad that they could not read the maps in any event.)
The way they moved makes it pretty evident (even without Tolkien telling us) that the nazgul planned the invasion beforehand quite carefully, using maps of the area. I wonder whose was the plan: the Captain's or Khamul's? I am sure every nazgul had studied the maps and knew them well. (Maybe they could only read at night, at least the day-blind ones, like Khamul). The difference in nazgul activities by day and by night is striking, especially when one tries to map their movements. At night they are self-sufficient, active and bold. By day they either hide, or move along roads tightly sticking to their pairs.

Gordis, this seems pretty solid to me. At least it is reasonable, and it fits the texts you have cited. My observations are these:
Both the inset map in Fonstad’s atlas and the map of the Shire in the front of The Fellowship of the Ringwould seem to indicate that the main road from Sarn Ford passed through Sackville, Whitwell, and joined the Great East Road at Waymeet (hence its name, no doubt).
It was fortunate for Frodo and his companions that there were no main road (maybe backroads) directly from San Ford to Hobbiton. It looks as if the road north from Longbottom stopped at Pincup, so I would assume that what was available through the hills were smaller, winding, less travelled ways. Did Khamûl and E come cross-country, or through Waymeet?

Yes, it is evident that the nazgul had been following the roads, at least by day, using the map they had. I have not paid it enough attention, thank you, Alcuin for the suggestions! DE (Khamul and his buddy) obviously took the road to Pincup where it branched from the main road from Sarn Ford to Waymeet and then made it across country to the Great Road. It was the only way they could hit it near Three Farthing Stone, as we know they did. It was a direct and shortest way to Hobbiton. No, they didn't pass Waymeet, or it would have been mentioned.

Now as for HI, we are not told that they made it cross-country to Michel Delving - my other mistake. They followed the road, and that makes them pass through Hardbottle, follow this road north, then turn west along the Great road. That was where they separated at nightfall. It would have made a lot of sense for one of them to take the road to Waymeet, then turn west and meet his pal at Michel Delving. But no, neither of them was fit to travel alone while the day lasted. Our Frick and Frack were likely the weakest of the Nine.

I just see Rule No 1 in the nazgul's job description: "DON'T operate alone by daylight!" BTW, had the WK followed this rule at the Pelennor, he would have been still alive.;)

There appears to be no direct main route to the Marish from Sarn Ford at all, and there are two streams cutting the way (only one after Willowbottom) and a marsh. … G moved to cut off the only escape to the east from the Shire, at least, the only one he could know about. Remember, Buckland wasn’t marked on any maps, and unless he noticed the side road to the Buckleberry Ferry, he would have missed the ferry altogether. I imagine it was something of a surprise for Khamûl to find his prey poling off across the “Elvish Baranduin”.
Best of all for Frodo, Saruman’s spies had not mapped Buckland, so that created some difficulty for the Nazgûl: not only were they unaware of it (G probably figured it out once he reached the Bridge, but had no way of exploring it himself without leaving his post, and no good means of alerting the others at such a distance), they were at something of a loss to make their way through it.It makes a lot of sense that as Buckland was not marked on the Isengarder's map, the Ferry connecting to Brandy Hall wasn't either. I am sure, had the nazgul known about the Ferry, one of them would have remained guarding it.
They did guard all the ways out of the Shire but this one: H was at the West exit, G at the East exit via the Bridge and F at Sarn Ford.
Mapping things made me wonder again about G. He is exceptional: operating alone in the middle of the day, he crossed two small rivers, found the end of the Marish road unerringly, followed it, found the Bridge. He must be a Numenorean, or at least a Northman with good day vision and not much fear of water. I give A+ to G.

As for Khamûl and the visit to Hobbiton, I don’t know why only one of the Nazgûl went. I do know that, according to RC, 176 (I: 178) (elisions and bracket are not mine, but from the text in this citation), the Witch-king was ....
Here are several clues to the purposes of the hunters. First, if the Bearer “is a person of power and knowledge he may find out how to use it, and compel a Nazgûl to leave him unmolested at he least.” Which brings up the possibility that he might be able to do more than “the least,” and actually compel a Nazgûl to help him. One can imagine the result had Aragorn, CÃ*rdan, Elrond, Gandalf, or Saruman (who had spent centuries studying the Rings) come into confrontation with two Nazgûl, “recruited” them into service; learned from them the plans, locations, and devices of the others; and one by one or two by two picked them off. For the Witch-king and his fellows, things could hardly have turned out worse than that: no doubt several of them might have been destroyed, or at least damaged, while their new master and their old (who still held their Nine Rings) quarreled over original claims versus possession of the property. One Nazgûl at a time, and if one met a new Master, perhaps another could warn the rest of them, so that they would at least not be caught unprepared.
Very good point. That aspect of the Hunt constantly gets overlooked or glossed over. Yet it contributes a lot to nazgul's fear to attack Frodo wearing the Ring, the necessity to wound him with the Morgul blade to break his will -and not grab and carry him off unmolested, as well as all their trouble to not let Gandalf approach the Ring-Company.

[Alcuin]

This brings up an interesting point that we should probably discuss in another thread:

What did the Nazgûl and Sauron make of it that the Ringbearer was “a v[ery]small spiritless creature with no pride or willpower, and is filled with terror at the approach of a Nazgûl.�

Sauron and any of his adherents would have seized any desirable good from another, weaker creature in a heartbeat. Could Sauron or the Nazgûl even imagine that any of the Wise or Aragorn (once Sauron knew of him) pass up an opportunity to take the Ring for his own? Sauron knew that Saruman had already fallen to the temptation of the Ring. He must have assumed that in the Company of the Ring, the One Ring was in the possession of one of the other members – Gandalf or Aragorn, most likely – and not with any of the halflings, which explains the sarcastic abuse heaped upon Gandalf and all Hobbitry by the Mouth of Sauron at the Morannon: “What use you find in [these imps] I cannot guess; but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly.�

Allowing Gandalf to approach the Bearer surely meant, to the Nazgûl, that the wizard would claim the Ring for his own. They would be caught in conflicting allegiances and subject to his commands. It explains the perplexity of the Witch-king at Weathertop cited from “The Hunt for the Ring� MSS in RC 196 (I:208), where Tolkien says the Witch-king “now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger’.�

[Gordis]

Alcuin, I have opened a new thread for your last question in LOTR forum HERE (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=642910#post642910). I guess this discussion would be of general interest. As for me, I have little to say on the matter, as I agree with you 100%.;)

Now back to our maps and timelines.:)

I guess the main problem for the nazgul was the absence of Buckland and the Ferry on their maps. (It were not the nazgul, but Saruman's spies who were at fault!:p) That led to the nazgul's failure to guard the Ferry and, which was quite important, the lack of attention to the Stock road, the one the hobbits took.
Indeed, this road led nowhere - starting at Tuckburrow and ending at Woodhall. It was entirely by chance that Khamul happened to be there, it seems - or maybe he was led by the lingering ring-scent? After all, later at Crickhollow Khamul was able to tell that the Ring had been there...

[On 24 September he D] picks up the Stock Road, and overtakes Frodo at approaches to Woody End - probably by accident; he becomes uneasily aware of the Ring, but is hesitant and uncertain because of the bright sun. He turns into the woods and waits for night.-RC p.98
Why didn't he call his buddy E? Perhaps because E fared not much better by daylight? But then again, E's job was messenger from Dol-Guldur to Mordor. Likely he was used to travel alone and by day as well as by night. So was Khamul simply wanting to be the one to get the Ring for the Master? Or, as Alcuin had suggested, was he trying to keep his buddy out of harm's way if the Bearer claimed the Ring? At the moment they had no idea what kind of creature Frodo was.

Well, let us read further about the night of September 24-25. After dark, becoming acutely aware of the Ring, [Khamûl D] goes in pursuit; but is daunted by the sudden appearance of the Elves and the song of Elbereth. While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves he cannot perceive the Ring clearly.- RC, p.99
This Ring-sense is a bit puzzling to me. First of all, these guys haven't "smelled" the Ring for 3000 years. And before the Last Alliance Sauron hardly played games with his nazgul hiding the Ring an asking them to find it, did he? :D So how did they know in the first place which nazgul would be more Ring-sensitive? :confused:

[Alcuin]

If E was posted between the Stock Road and the Great East Road near Whitwell, he was a good 25 miles away from Khamûl in Hobbiton. Khamûl had no idea where Frodo was going, and he followed as best he could, all the way to Gildor’s way-station near the village of Woodhall. (Which could be how “Woodhall� got its name, although it is a perfectly good name for a big wooden house, too.) Only after he lost them because he could not go down the slope and then heard the hobbits singing did he start calling out for his companion.

I don’t think it was to keep another Nazgûl from harm’s way: Khamûl had already sensed that Frodo was afraid of him, I think: he probably overheard the hobbits’ discussion with the Eldar in the woods. They certainly knew that Frodo was a halfling. What the reaction of a typical hobbit of the Shire to these monsters was we can only guess: The Gaffer was deaf and exasperated; Farmer Maggot was obstinate as well, but frightened, too, though he carried himself well. These characters were exceptional: Maggot was honest and brave, and the Gaffer was an honest but difficult old codger. Surely most hobbits were thoroughly terrified of the Black Riders!

I think Khamûl and E went right into the middle of the Shire to shake the Ringbearer loose from whatever place he was ensconced. That Frodo was already on the move rather upset their plans.

The one weak part of their plan was weak was that Frodo might move west, and quickly, crossing over into Lindon. Only Khamûl and H were in position to intercept him if that happened. (In one of the early drafts, they chase Gandalf into one of the Elf Towers on Tower Hills. These were actually all that remained of the ancient towers of Arnor, but that had been built by Gil-galad for Elendil. Because the last of the Northern palantÃ*ri was in one of them, the Elves guarded them; whether the guard could have held off the Nazgûl, I don’t know, nor whether they would have admitted Frodo to the towers if he were pursued by the Ringwraiths.)

As for sudden Ring-sensitivity, it makes sense. Sauron sent them out to find the Ring. We have already discussed the ability of even one of the weaker Nazgûl to cause the Ring to try to reveal itself in Bree (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15029&page=5): the Ringwraith was across the street from the Prancing Pony when that happened. If Sauron equipped his servants to ping the Ring, then it only stands to reason that he made them as sensitive as he could to its location. After all, he wants them to find the thing! If they can “feel� for it and ping it, that’s tremendously better than just blundering about. It seems that Khamûl was quite good at the “feeling� for the Ring, but not so competent pinging it: Frodo did not put on the Ring in the Woody End.

[Gordis]

If E was posted between the Stock Road and the Great East Road near Whitwell, he was a good 25 miles away from Khamûl in Hobbiton. [..] Only after he lost them because he could not go down the slope and then heard the hobbits singing did he start calling out for his companion. Yes, when Khamul became desperate, when he felt he couldn't find the way down from the ridge without his guide E, he summoned him by the cry. E was quite far from Khamul even then: about 12 miles.
We should note that this was likely the first and the last nazgul cry in the Shire. It seems shrieking was the last resort, it interfered with secrecy imposed by Sauron and with the nature of their business. (Compare to it PJ's movie, when nazgul shriek all the time like deranged hamsters without any apparent reason.:()

Surely most hobbits were thoroughly terrified of the Black Riders!I am not so sure. Pippin and Sam didn't seem much impressed by the near-meetings with Khamul. Gaffer and Maggot were plainly rude, instead of groveling. Butterbur also slammed the door in the nazgul's faces. I imagine what Lobelia would have said, had the hapless Khamul met her :D

I think Khamûl and E went right into the middle of the Shire to shake the Ringbearer loose from whatever place he was ensconced. That Frodo was already on the move rather upset their plans. I have got a definite impression that the nazgul expected the Ring to be already on the move. Maybe, much like Saruman, they believed Faramir's dream that Isildur's bane would be shown in Imladris?[Saruman] believed also (knowing of the oracular dream-words and of Boromir's mission) that the Ring had gone and was already on the way on Rivendell.-UT Note that the Witch-King went to muster the Wights before he knew that the Ring had left the Shire and was moving eastwards. He anticipated this move.

The one weak part of their plan was that Frodo might move west, and quickly, crossing over into Lindon. Only Khamûl and H were in position to intercept him if that happened.
Two nazgul were already enough, IMO. Note that only one G was guarding the opposite exit. In hindsight it would have been better to send H and I east as well, to watch the bank of Baranduin, but it is to their credit that they had foreseen all the possibilities.

If Sauron equipped his servants to ping the Ring, then it only stands to reason that he made them as sensitive as he could to its location. After all, he wants them to find the thing! If they can “feel” for it and ping it, that’s tremendously better than just blundering about. It seems that Khamûl was quite good at the “feeling” for the Ring, but not so competent pinging it: Frodo did not put on the Ring in the Woody End.
Yes, "ping" might have been a spell taught by Sauron to the nazgul (You see, in days long-past Sauron used Ping-spell every morning when he was searching for the Ring in his messy bedroom :D). But the response must have been something the Ring itself did. Maybe its "Presence" intensified, was becoming more detectable, maybe it only could make its bearer put it on. Then likely in the Shire the Ring itself hasn't yet found the proper response to "ping", or had not enough hold on Frodo's mind - yet.

[Alcuin]

Exactly, when Khamul felt he couldn't find a way down from the ridge without his guide E, he summoned him by cry. E was quite far from Khamul even then: about 12 miles. No, not when he couldn’t get down the slope. He cried for E after the hobbits got loud singing Ho! Ho! Ho! to the bottle I go. Several hours had passed since they had seem the Black Rider at the top of the hill, and they’d had lunch and a little too much of whatever the Elves put in their bottles. I think Khamûl was alerting E to the sound of the singing and directing him to intercept it.

I imagine what Lobelia would have said, had the hapless Khamul met herShe’d have whacked him with her umbrella, no doubt. But then, the Nazgûl were probably trying not to scare the dickens out of the locals: rumor of their approach would run before them, and it would flush the bird too soon if he was still in the Shire.

I have got a definite impression that the nazgul expected the Ring to be already on the move. Maybe, much like Saruman, they believed Faramir's dream that Isildur's bane would be shown in Imladris?[Saruman] believed also (knowing of the oracular dream-words and of Boromir's mission) that the Ring had gone and was already on the way on Rivendell.-UT
Note that the Witch-King went to muster the Wights before he knew that the Ring had left the Shire and was moving eastwards. He anticipated this move. Nice catch. I concede the point.

The one weak part of their plan was that Frodo might move west, and quickly, crossing over into Lindon. Only Khamûl and H were in position to intercept him if that happened. Two nazgul were already enough, IMO. Note that only one G was guarding the opposite exit. That was E’s job as well. There was one Nazgûl between Hobbiton and the Bridge, another on the other side of the Bridge, one west of Hobbiton, and one north. The only way out should have been south, and Khamûl was coming from that direction.

The Ringwraith Expeditionary Force almost captured Frodo. Before Frodo got to the other side of the Baranduin, he had five near-missed with Khamûl: at Bag End, near Woody End in the evening, below Woody End the next morning, near Maggot’s farm, and at the Ferry: had it not been for the Ferry, about which the Nazgûl were clueless until Khamûl followed him there, he’d have been caught. Once he got to the other side, he was literally off their map.

[Gordis]

No, not when he couldn’t get down the slope. He cried for E after the hobbits got loud singing Ho! Ho! Ho! to the bottle I go. Several hours had passed since they had seem the Black Rider at the top of the hill, and they’d had lunch and a little too much of whatever the Elves put in their bottles. I think Khamûl was alerting E to the sound of the singing and directing him to intercept it.
But the hobbits naturally stopped singing when they heard Khamul's shriek. Instead of interrupting the song, the nazgul could have used the sound to approach the Hobbits. To me it shows that Khamul got stranded somewhere - likely on top of the ridge over Woody End and, being blind, couldn't go further - so he called to his buddy to search for the way down.

She’d have whacked him with her umbrella, no doubt. Do all umbrellas perish that whack the dreadful Khamul?:D

I wonder, what would have happened had Khamul arrived one day later. Here is Bag End, here is Mr. Lotho Baggins, the owner. "Now, Bagginsss, where is the Ring? - To Mordor we shall take you...":p

The Ringwraith Expeditionary Force almost captured Frodo. Before Frodo got to the other side of the Baranduin, he had five near-missed with Khamûl: at Bag End, near Woody End in the evening, below Woody End the next morning, near Maggot’s farm, and at the Ferry: had it not been for the Ferry, about which the Nazgûl were clueless until Khamûl followed him there, he’d have been caught. Once he got to the other side, he was literally off their map.
Nice summary. So, do the nazgul get A for the actions in the Shire? (Not A+ for the missing of the Ferry).

[Alcuin]

it shows that Khamul got stranded somewhere - likely on top of the ridge over Woody End and, being blind, couldn't go further - so he called to his buddy to search for the way down.Not to hunt for a way down or around: he had the horse for that. He had to direct E to their quarry, since he could not immediately reach them himself. Until then, it is not clear that Khamûl had “told” any of the others that he had found the Ring: he had only hunted it himself.

do the nazgul get A for the actions in the Shire?I think so.

[Gordis]

Not to hunt for a way down or around: he had the horse for that. He had to direct E to their quarry, since he could not immediately reach them himself. Until then, it is not clear that Khamûl had “told� any of the others that he had found the Ring: he had only hunted it himself.But E was much further from the Hobbits than Khamul. Why call him at this point then? Why interrupt their merry song?

EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that the time-scemes I have linked to in the first post are not easy to visualize in html format - one has to scroll to see them.
I am offering to send the .pdf or .doc files to everyone who asks for them. Just send me a PM with your e-mail address.

[Alcuin]

E was the catcher; Khamûl was the batter. The hounds to the hunters: he hoped he was driving the prey toward E, and he was making him aware of it. As far as Khamûl and E knew, the only way out was by the bridge, and they had the Ringbearer trapped between the hills and the river. Khamûl just missed Frodo at Maggot’s farm: he’d found his way into the lower lands in the floodplain and ridden across Maggot’s fields.

Come to think of it, when Khamûl followed Frodo to the Ferry, he was probably following him from Maggot’s farm: he must have thought that the Ringbearer would be caught by him and E at some lonely spot along the road that ran along the river. By taking the Ferry, Frodo and his friends might have just avoided a trap.

[Gordis]

In fact, first Khamul met E, then they both visited Maggot. Sure, Maggot saw only Khamul, but E must have been just round the corner:

As soon as the Elves depart [Khamûl D] renews his hunt, and reaching the ridge above Woodhall is aware that the Ring has been there. Failing to find the Bearer and feeling that he is drawing away, he summons [E] by cries. [He D] is aware of the general direction that the Ring has taken, but not knowing of Frodo's rest in the wood, and believing him to have made straight eastwards, he and [ E] ride over the fields. They visit Maggot while Frodo is still under the trees. [Khamûl D] then makes a mistake (probably because he imagines the Ringbearer as some mighty man, strong and swift): he does not look near the farm, but sends [his companion E] down Causeway towards Overbourn, while he goes north along it towards the Bridge. They tryst to return and meet one another at night; but do so just too late. Frodo crosses by ferry just before [Khamûl D] arrives. [His companion E] joins him soon after.-RC p.116
Here is the problem: the nazgul are not yet aware how slow and lazy the hobbits are, how they stop for meals 6 times a day, how they spend 3 hours breakfasting while they should have been running. They can't figure out why the prey suddenly starts to sing at the top of their voices...

Hobbits, rabbits - enough to drive a decent nazgul nuts.:D

[Alcuin]

Hobbits, rabbits - enough to drive a decent nazgul nuts.:DThere you go: Khamûl’s problem is that what he needed was a lucky hobbit’s foot.

[Olmer]

There you go: Khamûl’s problem is that what he needed was a lucky hobbit’s foot.

:D:D:D

BTW, Gordis, such a meticulous research, but the "alphabet" is confusing. Maybe we should stick to Frik, Frak and so on?:D

[Coffeehouse]

The Ringwraith Expeditionary Force almost captured Frodo. Before Frodo got to the other side of the Baranduin, he had five near-missed with Khamûl: at Bag End, near Woody End in the evening, below Woody End the next morning, near Maggot’s farm, and at the Ferry: had it not been for the Ferry, about which the Nazgûl were clueless until Khamûl followed him there, he’d have been caught. Once he got to the other side, he was literally off their map.

Nice summary. So, do the nazgul get A for the actions in the Shire? (Not A+ for the missing of the Ferry).

I just think A is out of the question:cool: By failing to accomplish their mission in the Shire, namely the capture of the ring, they can't get top grade then can they;)

It is telling how many times they had near-misses. Not one, not two, not three, not four, but five.
I would say one is unfortunate, two perhaps also so.. three becomes a worrying tendency, four and five are a clear pattern.

The Nazgûl get a C for their hunt in the Shire:

- They don't get a lower grade because they did in fact locate Bag End and managed to pick up on that the Ring-bearer had in fact left journeying. That merits a mediocre grade. The Nazgûl must then show that they can perform the next step in their task, closing in on their prey before the trail cools.

- An A they simply can't get because they never confronted nor came close to getting a hold of the ring. The ring-bearer never felt threathened to the point of peril.

- Neither did they show the competence nor efficiency that a B could warrant. During the time that the hobbits were with the Elves near Woody End the Nazgûl had an entire night to scramble as many as they could possibly muster to cover the terrain in the immediate vicinity. They had both the time and the nocturnal vision to map out the terrain, and should then have learned of the rugged, down-sloping terrain after Woody End that proved hard for one of Nazgûl to pass through on horseback. This they would have to make amends for, but they didn't.

Had the Nazgûl been competent in their hunt they would have anticipated the next move. Contrary to this approach, the Nazgûl were yet again on the backfoot after the hobbits had left Woody End, not nearly as hot on the trail as they should have been. They had a clear tactical advantage to benefit from the delay of the ring-bearer's journey, but did not take it. Failing to ambush the hobbits between Woody End and Farmer Maggots farm is, I argue, clearly incompetence.

The Nazgûl did not capture the ring-bearer between Bag End and Crickhollow. Not only did they fail to confront the ring-bearer, they also lost the trail on numerous occasions, the consequences being that they did not catch up on the trail again until Bree. That fellow Mooters, simply isn't good enough:)

[Gordis]

During the time that the hobbits were with the Elves near Woody End the Nazgûl had an entire night to scramble as many as they could possibly muster to cover the terrain in the immediate vicinity. They had both the time and the nocturnal vision to map out the terrain, and should then have learned of the rugged, down-sloping terrain after Woody End that proved hard for one of Nazgûl to pass through on horseback. This they would have to make amends for, but they didn't.
That is a good point. What would the defence say?;)
I guess this night Khamul was in dismay, feeling that the Hunt had already failed. The Hobbits had just met a whole company of Calaquendi Elves and were now travelling with them. They could go unhindered any way now - to the Havens or to Rivendell, like a flagship passing in majesty through a small fleet of boats. What would G be able to do to stop the Elves from crossing the Bridge he was guarding? - nothing. What would all the five nazgul in the Shire be able to do against Gildor's Elves? Nothing. Why bother to assemble the others?

Who would have thought that the Elves were not going to help the Hobbits with the Ring, that they would abandon them in the morning?

Only in the late morning, after having examined the campsite of the Elves on the ridge above Woodhall, Khamul understood that the Ring and the Elves had parted company. The ring-smell and the Elf-smell were coming from different directions. ;) Maybe a less ring-sensitive nazgul than Khamul wouldn't have been able to understand even that. Likely ours Frick and Frack would have lost the Ring at this point altogether.

Had the Nazgûl been competent in their hunt they would have anticipated the next move.
They couldn't have : the hobbits were going to the Ferry, and the nazgul had no idea it existed. They thought the hobbits would have to turn either South to Sarn Ford, or North to the Bridge. Both those roads they have explored.

Contrary to this approach, the Nazgûl were yet again on the backfoot after the hobbits had left Woody End, not nearly as hot on the trail as they should have been. They had a clear tactical advantage to benefit from the delay of the ring-bearer's journey, but did not take it. Failing to ambush the hobbits between Woody End and Farmer Maggots farm is, I argue, clearly incompetence. Unfortunately they were not aware of the delays and how slow the hobbits generally moved. Thus, unknowing of it, they were ahead.
Khamul came to question Maggot before the hobbits came there. Seemingly Khamul could tell that Maggot was not lying to him, so he believed that the Ring had bypassed the farm.

Anyway, Khamul asked Maggot to watch for Baggins and tell him if the latter comes. Maggot had an opportunity to earn a hefty sum of Mordor gold. Bill Ferny in his place wouldn't have hesitated a second.:cool:

The Nazgûl did not capture the ring-bearer between Bag End and Crickhollow. Not only did they fail to confront the ring-bearer, they also lost the trail on numerous occasions, the consequences being that they did not catch up on the trail again until Bree. That fellow Mooters, simply isn't good enough:)
Well maybe B, not A, but C is a stretch!:D

The principal fault was that of Isengard spies: they missed the Ferry and didn't map it. Then there were Elves...

[Earniel]

The side-discussion has been moved to its own thread: Ability to Communicate with The One Ring (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15064)

Sorry if I kept you waiting but I'm not usually around to do mod-work at 7AM on a Sunday. ;)

[Gordis]

Thank you, Earniel!

Does anybody want to say more about the first episode of the Hunt - 5 nazgul in the Shire (until the escape of the hobbits by the Ferry)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Does anybody want to say more about the first episode of the Hunt - 5 nazgul in the Shire (until the escape of the hobbits by the Ferry)?

Perhaps just the note that I would not have had any problems with giving the Nazgul an A, or, all right, B at most. I think they did pretty well.

There was also one thing I wanted to point out, and that was that they were still incredibly lucky. Khamul was actually really lucky to pick, of all possibilities, the road which the Ring took - the one through Greenhill country, which was, like somebody mentioned on this thread, leading to a blind end! It was by no means any important road, it lead through the wildest part of the Shire (except for the borderlands). Really lucky he was.

But yes, that may be about it; let's move on!

[Gordis]

There was also one thing I wanted to point out, and that was that they were still incredibly lucky. Khamul was actually really lucky to pick, of all possibilities, the road which the Ring took - the one through Greenhill country, which was, like somebody mentioned on this thread, leading to a blind end! It was by no means any important road, it lead through the wildest part of the Shire (except for the borderlands). Really lucky he was.
I guess he was following the "Ring-smell", at least at night. In RC it is said that Khamul was "drawn by the Ring"


Let us indeed move on.

So, late at night on September 25-26 Khamul's group of five nazgul DEGHI assemble by the Brandywine bridge. It was easy to do: I had just finished his round trip through the Northfarthing, H came to the Bridge following the Great Road from West to East, D and E met each other at the Ferry, minutes later than necessary, and went together to the Bridge. G had been guarding the Bridge for 2 days already.

Here I have some questions:
1. Were there any Rangers guarding this entrance to the Shire? Normally there should have been, if we consider that there was a strong guard of Rangers at the Sarn-Ford entrance. Why not guard also this one? Yet there is no mention of Rangers at the Bridge of Strongbows.

2. Was G letting the traffic over the Bridge to continue unhindered? There could have been some Hobbits going to and from Buckland, as well as Dwarves etc. travelling along the Road. Or was the Bridge deserted?

3. We know that some Elves of Gildor were likely to cross the Bridge on their way to Bree and Rivendell. Or did they cross by Ferry, visit Tom and go to Bree?

Did they go check on the Rangers of Sarn-Ford first, once they learned that nazgul had somehow gotten into the Shire? Did they tell Aragorn about the fate of his Rangers? Note that in the drafts in HOME 7 (and only in the drafts) there is an Entry for Sept 25: "Strider hears ill news from Elves." Was it about hobbits or about Sarn Ford?
Was there enough time for an Elf to start from Woody End in early hours of Sept. 25, go to Sarn-Ford, go to Bree and come there the same day? Impossible I think, it would be more than 200 miles...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

1. Were there any Rangers guarding this entrance to the Shire? Normally there should have been, if we consider that there was a strong guard of Rangers at the Sarn-Ford entrance. Why not guard also this one? Yet there is no mention of Rangers at the Bridge of Strongbows.
You mean, Stonebows ;) Strongbow was Beleg. :)

But it is an interesting question. One might be that there were enough Hobbit guards by the bridge ("enough", certainly by hobbits' measures, and, well, in that case - where would the Rangers stay? The hobbits won't certainly feel comfortable if they knew a band of Big Folk - Strider-like weird men from wilderness, dangerous no doubt - was camping around their borders, so the Rangers would have to stay far away enough, so if there were any in the East, they were likely not in the close proximity to the Bridge), Buckland was guarded by a gate, and the entrance to the Shire was possible only via the bridge. Remember there were some guards (hobbits) by the bridge - that was explicitely said in LotR. (Far later, Sharkey's men built a gate even by the bridge.)

The situation at Sarn Ford was different, there the border of the Shire was scarcely guarded, there (seemingly) existed not as large, if any, settlement as by the Bridge, so the Shire was far more vulnerable for attack from there; also, the Rangers could work there "undisturbed" by the Shiriffs ("Hey, Big Man, what are you doing here?" "Erm... well, in fact, I was..." "Don't try anything on me! You are under arrest!").

2. Was G letting the traffic over the Bridge to continue unhindered? There could have been some Hobbits going to and from Buckland, as well as Dwarves etc. travelling along the Road. Or was the Bridge deserted?
I guess there are two options. Either nobody passed during the days, which is technically possible, but one would have expected at least some Hobbits heading for Buckland; or the Nazgul was in some way "checking" - now it would be interesting to know how, and he would also have to be pretty skilled for that, to be able to say for sure that the Ringbearer did not get past him. His job was quite a responsible one.

3. We know that some Elves of Gildor were likely to cross the Bridge on their way to Bree and Rivendell. Or did they cross by Ferry, visit Tom and go to Bree?
And did they go to Rivendell? I don't have the proper material with me now, but could it not have been that they left for the Towers later? Just checking. In either case, I think it would have been no problem for them to use the Ferry, or who knows, perhaps use some of their own hidden boats or something to cross Brandywine. Certainly, they would prefer to pass unnoticed, not going by the middle of the Great Road so that all hobbits would gasp at them. However, at night, a Nazgul would have noticed them more likely than not; even if the Hobbit guards were overcome by sleep or for some other reason didn't notice them. So, I think the Ferry or another, own means of transport are likely.

[Gordis]

You mean, Stonebows ;) Strongbow was Beleg. :)

But it is an interesting question. One might be that there were enough Hobbit guards by the bridge ("enough", certainly by hobbits' measures, and, well, in that case - where would the Rangers stay? The hobbits won't certainly feel comfortable if they knew a band of Big Folk - Strider-like weird men from wilderness, dangerous no doubt - was camping around their borders, so the Rangers would have to stay far away enough, so if there were any in the East, they were likely not in the close proximity to the Bridge), Buckland was guarded by a gate, and the entrance to the Shire was possible only via the bridge. Remember there were some guards (hobbits) by the bridge - that was explicitely said in LotR. (Far later, Sharkey's men built a gate even by the bridge.)
Stonebows- sure :o. Funny name, BTW, if you think on it. Was it a reference to the shape of the bridge's arches?

About the hobbit guards at the Bridge. I haven't found where it was explicitly said in LotR that there were any guards prior to the coming of the ruffians.:confused: The guards at Hay Gate to Buckland - yes, but not the Bridge.
What I found in the "Scouring" chapter was the mention of the existence of the Bridge Inn on the west bank, if that is somehow relevant.

Also see this quote (A Conspiracy Unmasked) depicting security at Hay Gate: ‘But what about the Black Riders?' said Frodo. 'Would it be safe to wait one day for Gandalf?’

‘That all depends on what you think the Riders would do, if they found you here,’ answered Merry. ‘They could have reached here by now, of course, if they were not stopped at the North-gate, where the Hedge runs down to the river-bank, just this side of the Bridge. The gate-guards would not let them through by night, though they might break through. Even in the daylight they would try to keep them out, I think, at any rate until they got a message through to the Master of the Hall - for they would not like the look of the Riders, and would certainly be frightened by them. But, of course, Buckland cannot resist a determined attack for long. And it is possible that in the morning even a Black Rider that rode up and asked for Mr. Baggins would be let through. It is pretty generally known that you are coming back to live at Crickhollow.’
You see there is only mention of the guards of Buckland at Hay-Gate, but not on the Bridge.

About the rangers: I don't think there were no sheltered camping places close to the Bridge - after all, the nazgul G did stay there for 3 days unobserved and he must have kept his horse grazing nearby. The horse was not something he could make invisible and it was a very distinctive animal, not some hobbit pony. (Hmm... could someone try to steal a nazgul horse?)

But indeed, the post of rangers could have been further east, if not based in Bree itself. I think it was the case - everyone coming to the Shire from the east would most likely pass through Bree anyway.

I guess there are two options. Either nobody passed during the days, which is technically possible, but one would have expected at least some Hobbits heading for Buckland; or the Nazgul was in some way "checking" - now it would be interesting to know how, and he would also have to be pretty skilled for that, to be able to say for sure that the Ringbearer did not get past him. His job was quite a responsible one.
I agree. If there was a "Ping" command, now was the time for G to use it.:D He must have been rather ring-sensitive, this G - a competent nazgul in many ways, working alone. He also had to avoid causing unnecessary fear around the Bridge to avoid panic. Likely he chose his observation post as far away from the Buckland guards and from the Bridge Inn as possible.

And did the Elves go to Rivendell? I don't have the proper material with me now, but could it not have been that they left for the Towers later? Just checking. They have already been to Elostirion, they were returning from there when Frodo met them. After the meeting some Elves did go straight to Rivendell (Why wouldn't they take Frodo along, the pointy-eared bastards?):
[Glorfindel:] 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned.
Some went to Tom, some passed through Bree and met Strider bearing "ill news".
I agree that the Elves likely avoided the Bridge. I think the messengers went via Ferry-Tom-Bree-Rivendell.

The rest of the Elves possibly went south to check on Sarn Ford rangers (it was easy to put 2 and 2 together and guess that these Men needed help, if any were left alive). Later the rest of Gildor's group likely took the Greenway to Bree and were stuck by the three strongest Nazgul at Andrath: [on Sept 27] The Witch-King himself, [with BC] redoubles his vigilance on the east-borders along the Greenway... his counsels disturbed by threat of attack. Some of the Dunedain have met Elvish messengers, and [he] is uneasily aware that many enemies are watching him and though none has yet come with power to challenge him.- RC, p.164-5

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Stonebows- sure :o. Funny name, BTW, if you think on it. Was it a reference to the shape of the bridge's arches?
For certain.

About the hobbit guards at the Bridge. I haven't found where it was explicitly said in LotR that there were any guards prior to the coming of the ruffians.:confused: The guards at Hay Gate to Buckland - yes, but not the Bridge.
(...)
Also see this quote (A Conspiracy Unmasked) depicting security at Hay Gate:
You see there is only mention of the guards of Buckland at Hay-Gate, but not on the Bridge.
Oh, now I see, good you pointed it out. I actually thought Merry spoke about some guards on the bridge, now I see he spoke about those by the Gate. Well, I guess it makes sense, thinking of it, that there were no guards on the Bridge. Just remember: the Hobbits did not even lock their doors. They considered "their own Shire" safe enough. Only the Bucklanders did, but that was beyond the River, close to the Old Forest, you know the stuff - so in the light of this it seems very fitting that they had their own gate while the Shire itself was in fact unprotected.

What I found in the "Scouring" chapter was the mention of the existence of the Bridge Inn on the west bank, if that is somehow relevant.
I wonder if poor Nazgul guy did drop in for a beer or two... though it would likely be a bit small for him inside ;)

About the rangers: I don't think there were no sheltered camping places close to the Bridge - after all, the nazgul G did stay there for 3 days unobserved and he must have kept his horse grazing nearby. The horse was not something he could make invisible and it was a very distinctive animal, not some hobbit pony. (Hmm... could someone try to steal a nazgul horse?)
Well, he could have just went to hide the horse a few miles away from the road and then return and spend all day (and night - ha! The Nazgul don't have to sleep, don't they? How efficient!) by watching the bridge from behind a tree or something like that.

But indeed, the post of rangers could have been further east, if not based in Bree itself. I think it was the case - everyone coming to the Shire from the east would most likely pass through Bree anyway.
Yes, I would think so.


I agree. If there was a "Ping" command, now was the time for G to use it.:D He must have been rather ring-sensitive, this G - a competent nazgul in many ways, working alone. He also had to avoid causing unnecessary fear around the Bridge to avoid panic. Likely he chose his observation post as far away from the Buckland guards and from the Bridge Inn as possible.
Yes, he was an interesting guy indeed. I think I like him :) Does it say specifically on which side of the bridge he was, guarding? Likely still inside the Shire, also because he would be further from the Bucklanders, who were, after all, a bit more careful and dangerous (relatively, of course).

They have already been to Elostirion, they were returning from there when Frodo met them. After the meeting some Elves did go straight to Rivendell (Why wouldn't they take Frodo along, the pointy-eared bastards?):

Some went to Tom, some passed through Bree and met Strider bearing "ill news".
I agree that the Elves likely avoided the Bridge. I think the messengers went via Ferry-Tom-Bree-Rivendell.

The rest of the Elves possibly went south to check on Sarn Ford rangers (it was easy to put 2 and 2 together and guess that these Men needed help, if any were left alive). Later the rest of Gildor's group likely took the Greenway to Bree and were stuck by the three strongest Nazgul at Andrath:

Hmm, I think I have little to none to add to that. We agree that the Elves crossed the river by themselves (thus, avoiding meeting G), but the rest of their movements is quite mysterious. But I guess your assumptions may be right about some trying to contact the Rangers at Sarn Ford (although, who knows? Not as necessary, and their behavior patterns are often seeming quite alien, like it's been pointed out). Anyway, the Elves are not the centre of our interest, are they ;)

[Gordis]

I wonder if poor Nazgul guy did drop in for a beer or two... though it would likely be a bit small for him inside ;) He could have ordered a lunch basket.:D If he was indeed a Northerner, he would like beer…

Well, he could have just went to hide the horse a few miles away from the road
I wonder did the nazgul tether their horses or did they let them run free as Gandy did with Shadowfax?

So, moving on...

Khamul now divided his team. Two of the nazgul H and I (that would be our hapless Frick and Frack, presumably Southrons) he sent to the Witch-King with orders to pass through Bree and check it.

Questions:
1.Why send two of them?
2. How could they expect to find the Ringbearer in Bree on September 26, when the Ring only crossed Brandywine in the evening of 25? How could Khamul expect the hobbits to reach Bree so fast?
3. Wasn't it necessary to hurry to the WK without delay bringing the news that the Ring had crossed the River - so that the WK could redouble vigilence in the Old Forest and on the Dawns?

Our Bridge-guardian G was (surprise-surprise) again left to lurk by the Bridge and Hay-Gate and guard now three horses. Well, his competence was clearly appreciated.;)

In the early hours of Sept 26, our two Dol-Guldur guys, Khamul (D) and his messenger E, "pass secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land". I guess they left the horses behind and quietly climbed the Gate, while the hobbit guards were otherwise distracted (drinking beer purchased in the Bridge Inn, most likely).

Tolkien comments on the nazgul actions in Buckland: "But desiring to attract as little notice as possible Khamul (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth."-RC, p164.
And indeed, it took DE 3 days (26-28) to find Crickhollow because they "can do little except at night; and they are at a loss, since the Buckland did not appear in Saruman's charts of the Shire at all." It looks like E was not much better than Khamul in resisting daylight.

Note also that the Gaffer told Khamul that Baggins moved "to Bucklebury or some such place", and that was misleading, because Bucklebury was the chief village in Buckland, "clustering in the banks and slopes behind Brandy Hall," and Crickhollow was a lone dwelling "in the country beyond Bucklebury".

Anyway, given the absence of a map and the size of Buckland, I think searching at night and on foot was not a smart thing to do. As you remember, at night everyone in Buckland locked their doors, so there was nobody to ask for directions.

It would have been much more efficient, IMO, to "follow Merry's advice", to ride boldly to the Haygate in the morning and ask to see Baggins. (Middle Earth Express Post, urgent message for mister Baggins:)). There was a fair chance that a nazgul would be let through and given directions to Crickhollow.
Of course, even this way, he would be too late to catch the hobbits, who left for the Old Forest before first light on Sept 26...

Thoughts?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Khamul now divided his team. Two of the nazgul H and I (that would be our hapless Frick and Frack, presumably Southrons) he sent to the Witch-King with orders to pass through Bree and check it.
All right, for start, one "lighter" question - as to the identity of them, if I may now bring that up. Is it okay if we discuss this topic a bit now, among other things, since it's been brought up? I would like to ask, once again, if you could sum up what lead you to believe that these two may likely be Southrons. Relatedly; is it not possible that they were, for example, Northerners? Or, eventually, a mixed team? What would you say to a theory that one was a Southron and one a Northerner, or something like that? Or what about Easterling(s)? I am curious and if it does not bother you, I would like to hear your opinions on that :)

1.Why send two of them?
The answer why send "two" of them is likely simple, they possibly were a "team", working well with each other. The question why send the two of "them" is more interesting, and it would be likely related to their personalities. It has probably much to do with the fact on who remained. Let's see - Khamul did not want to go himself, because he was the highest rank around here, and he probably saw his responsibility to keep watch about the Shire. Also, he likely believed (being mislead by dozens of Gaffers) that Mr. Baggins would not be leaving yet, at least there didn't seem to be many ways to leave. His companion from Dol Guldur would stay with him, of course, no point in breaking the team. G was a capable guy, but Khamul did not want to send just one person to WK, possibly in case more hands were needed etc. Thus, logically, the two remaining folks came out. That's what I would say.

2. How could they expect to find the Ringbearer in Bree on September 26, when the Ring only crossed Brandywine in the evening of 25? How could Khamul expect the hobbits to reach Bree so fast?
I think Khamul did not yet fully realise (and take into account) the hobbit's low speed. He was still thinking in cathegories of big men, who also, if they are fleeing (like Frodo did), may use swift horses. If the Hobbits indeed left the Shire, they - according to his opinion - might have already arrived there (if they had horses, they would - of course, the journey would take them just as long as to the Riders, only they had a few hours bonus).

3. Wasn't it necessary to hurry to the WK without delay bringing the news that the Ring had crossed the River - so that the WK could redouble vigilence in the Old Forest and on the Dawns?
I guess this was possibly a miscalculation on the Nazguls' part. Again, I am imagining it the way that they did not likely think of other ways to leave the Shire than the Road (that means they must have known pretty lot about the Old Forest, for example, thinking that the Hobbits would not, or could not go there). For Khamul, the situation seemed clearly either A. Baggins left the Shire via the Road (from Buckland) before we could stop him, then hurry and fetch him before he flees too far; B. Baggins is still in Buckland (Khamul evidently thought this; proven later by the attack on Crickhollow).

In the early hours of Sept 26, our two Dol-Guldur guys, Khamul (D) and his messenger E, "pass secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land". I guess they left the horses behind and quietly climbed the Gate, while the hobbit guards were otherwise distracted (drinking beer purchased in the Bridge Inn, most likely).

Tolkien comments on the nazgul actions in Buckland: "But desiring to attract as little notice as possible Khamul (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth."-RC, p164.
And indeed, it took DE 3 days (26-28) to find Crickhollow because they "can do little except at night; and they are at a loss, since the Buckland did not appear in Saruman's charts of the Shire at all." It looks like E was not much better than Khamul in resisting daylight.

Note also that the Gaffer told Khamul that Baggins moved "to Bucklebury or some such place", and that was misleading, because Bucklebury was the chief village in Buckland, "clustering in the banks and slopes behind Brandy Hall," and Crickhollow was a lone dwelling "in the country beyond Bucklebury".
Indeed, quite funny. Also, remember that the Nazgul did not like crowded and lighted places. A big "city" (ahem) like Bucklebury was not one of their liking. Poor them did not know the place they were looking for was lovely lonely cottage in the countryside.

Anyway, given the absence of a map and the size of Buckland, I think searching at night and on foot was not a smart thing to do. As you remember, at night everyone in Buckland locked their doors, so there was nobody to ask for directions.

It would have been much more efficient, IMO, to "follow Merry's advice", to ride boldly to the Haygate in the morning and ask to see Baggins. (Middle Earth Express Post, urgent message for mister Baggins:)). There was a fair chance that a nazgul would be let through and given directions to Crickhollow.
Of course, even this way, he would be too late to catch the hobbits, who left for the Old Forest before first light on Sept 26...
Quite. Cautious, were they hobbits... :)

[Gordis]

All right, for start, one "lighter" question - as to the identity of them, if I may now bring that up. Is it okay if we discuss this topic a bit now, among other things, since it's been brought up? I would like to ask, once again, if you could sum up what lead you to believe that these two may likely be Southrons. Relatedly; is it not possible that they were, for example, Northerners? Or, eventually, a mixed team? What would you say to a theory that one was a Southron and one a Northerner, or something like that? Or what about Easterling(s)? I am curious and if it does not bother you, I would like to hear your opinions on that :)
It is one of the most interesting aspects of this thread, so, I would love to hear your opinion on possible nazgul nationalities. :)

In answer to your questions: almost everything is unfortunately possible: mixed teams, no Northerners, no Southrons etc. What I have summarized below is only assumptions built on assumptions built on more assumptions. Keep this in mind, please. Any suggestions are most welcome.

What can we say on nazgul races/nationalities? Provided the nazgul still had nationalities, because after about 4500 years as ringwraiths the cultural differences, national mindsets, might have been all but obliterated. Yet Tolkien calls Khamul "the Easterling", which suggests he could still be identified as such.

However, as they had their original bodies, their physical characteristics would still reflect their origins, the three Second Age Numenorean lords being no doubt the tallest and strongest of the bunch, while mongoloids being the smallest.

Anyway, back to Tolkien's identification letters. A is the WK, D is Khamul, second to the Chief. So the letters are given not according to pecking order, but according to some other principle. Alcuin supposes that they are likely given according to nationality, and I agree it might be the case:

As we work through the exercise, it is worth considering which of the Nazgûl might be the other two Númenóreans. B and C are obvious choices, because the Witch-king seems to keep them with him, and because in making a list, Tolkien might start by listing the three fallen Númenóreans first; after all, Khamûl is surely D, “the vanguard Rider” who reached Bag End, and he is the “second to the Chief” (Glossary, UT). Khamûl should naturally have been designated B unless there were some other compelling reason to list him fourth (D). F and G might also good choices, because they each appear to work well independently.

I make an assumption that 1. the nazgul in the same pair had the same nationality. If this assumption is incorrect, then it becomes impossibly complicated and all talk of pinpointing nationalities should, I believe, be abandoned once and for all.

Another assumption is that 2. there were four different nationalities among the nazgul: Numenoreans, Easterlings, Northerners, and Southrons. In mid Second Age the Northerners, ancestors of the Rohirrim, had to dwell there somewhere in Rhovanion or to the North-East of it, well within Sauron's sphere of interest. They were tall and strong people, racially close to the House of Hador and excellent horsemen. Sauron was quite likely to choose some of his nazgul from this people. This assumption makes the division of the eight nazgul into four pairs according to their nationality quite easy.

Then I make the third quite far-fetched assumption: 3. Edanic nazgul (Numenoreans and the Northmen) were more resistant to daylight than the Southrons and Easterlings. I have very little to back it, I admit, only the difference between Khamul and the WK in this respect.

Now what do we have?
I believe B and C were the strongest combat fighters of the Eight. They were guarding Andrath passage against the Dunedain and the Elves while the WK was away in the Barrows. It seems likely that BC were Numenoreans: a Numenorean was necessarily taller and stronger physically than say an Easterliing, it goes with the race. Physical strength meant a lot in Middle-Age fights with huge swords, maces etc. Also the endurance to daylight may have been a factor in choosing BC. They had to guard the Greenway day and night, even in the Captain's absence.
After 3.10, B and C (together with F and E) were sent to follow Gandalf, and likely B was in command of the group. I guess B may well be "Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul" ;)who took the command at the Pelennor after WK's death. Anyway he clearly was the highest ranking nazgul after the WK in Minas Morgul.

DE were from Dol Guldur: Khamul and his messenger. Assumption No.1 makes E another Easterling. E, by the way, though weaker than Khamûl (D), was likely not so blind by daylight. He clearly led his patron D through the Central Shire to Hobbiton during daytime of Sept. 23. Yet in Buckland both of them were able to operate only at night. Maybe they really needed their horses to see in daylight.

FG and HI are thus Northmen and Southrons. FG were always separated from each other, operating on their own. Seemingly they were stronger than HI who always went together. The choice of F to operate alone and guard Sarn Ford and G to guard the Stonebows bridge may also be due to their daylight resistance. F was not very strong overall, as we know this guy was later waylaid by the Dunedain at night (Sept. 29-30). But maybe by day he was stronger than say, Khamul. Note that if both B and C were Numenoreans, neither F or G could have been another one: there were but three in all, including A.

That makes me think FG were Northerners and HI Southrons, though it is of course inconclusive. Both pairs were excellent horsemen, covering great distances at high speed. Among the 8 nazgul there were two who made the "swiftest pair" (UT). Likely it were either FG or HI.

Some more observations about Khamul:
I was speaking of mongoloids. I am not sure, though, that the Easterlings among the Nine were necessarily mongoloids. The term "Easterling" would be applicable to all denizens of the East, in Earth equivalents applicable to everyone from Arab to Russian, to Persian, to Tatar, to Mongol, to Chinese and Japanese etc. So Khamul as easily could have been a sort of highly sophisticated turban-wearing Arab, as a barbarous nomadic Genghis-Khan character.

Here let me remind you of Frodo's observations at Weathertop. He saw "five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing.[...]The third [the WK]was taller than the others"
OK, we know that Khamul the Easterling was among those five, while B and C, supposedly the Numenoreans, were absent. The WK, being the only remaining Numenorean of the five, was, of course, much taller than the others, even for a frightened hobbit to notice. Yet Frodo describes all five as tall. (Of course, maybe for a hobbit all Men were tall anyway :rolleyes:).
Another thing is that Khamul is described thus: Round the corner came a black horse, no hobbit-pony but a full-sized horse; and on it sat a large man who seemed to crouch in the saddle, wrapped in a great black cloak and hood, so that only his boots in the high stirrups showed below; his face was shadowed and invisible.At the Ferry Khamul is described as "a dark black bundle left behind" that "crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps." To me all this conveys an impression of a large squat man, maybe indeed mongoloid (?)

I think Khamul did not yet fully realise (and take into account) the hobbit's low speed. He was still thinking in categories of big men, who also, if they are fleeing (like Frodo did), may use swift horses. If the Hobbits indeed left the Shire, they - according to his opinion - might have already arrived there (if they had horses, they would - of course, the journey would take them just as long as to the Riders, only they had a few hours bonus). Right. The hobbits may have found horses in Buckland - and Khamul didn't realize that hobbits were too small to ride normal sized horses, only ponies.:D

Again, I am imagining it the way that they did not likely think of other ways to leave the Shire than the Road (that means they must have known pretty lot about the Old Forest, for example, thinking that the Hobbits would not, or could not go there). For Khamul, the situation seemed clearly either A. Baggins left the Shire via the Road (from Buckland) before we could stop him, then hurry and fetch him before he flees too far; B. Baggins is still in Buckland (Khamul evidently thought this; proven later by the attack on Crickhollow).Version A seems to imply that G was not sure that no one left Buckland by the Hay-Gate to go East? Could be, if he was lurking on the West bank.
I am not sure about Khamul, but the WK expected the hobbits to make cross-country to Weathertop through the Old Forest and the Barrow-Downs:[The Witch-king] is uncertain what to do. The Bearer seems to be making eastwards, he is therefore surely bound for Rivendell (not the Havens). He would have naturally used the East Road; but will he do so, now that he knows he is pursued? Probably he will attempt to escape from the Shire at some unexpected point, through the Old Forest and the Downs, and there make cross-country to strike the Road beyond Weathertop, maybe. -RC, p. 164 But of course, the WK was far more familiar with the layout of the land than the other nazgul.

Note: I would greatly appreciate some input from other Mooters! It is not as if it is only between me and Legate.;)

[Attalus]

Right. The hobbits may have found horses in Buckland - and Khamul didn't realize that hobbits were too small to ride normal sized horses, only ponies.:D

JRRT must have not met any professional jockies. The are "small, even diminutive".

[Gordis]

JRRT must have not met any professional jockies. The are "small, even diminutive".

Well but still not 3 feet tall, I guess!:D

[Attalus]

Man, they would have made a mint in the pro circuit, and never even had to diet or use diuretics!:)

[Alcuin]

BUMP!


Where is Gordis?

[Gordis]

I am here...;)


So, as Alcuin is around, let us continue our investigation.

On 28 September Khamul (D) and E find Crickhollow at night, but do not attack though [Khamûl] is aware that the Ring has been, or is still, there. Khamûl lurks near, and E is sent to bring G [the rider left by the Bridge] and the horses. Road between Bridge and Bree is thus left unwatched. [Early on 29 September Khamûl and the other two Riders] come back to Crickhollow and watch it as night passes. - RC page 164-5

What is interesting here: Khamul apparently could sense not only the Ring as such, but catch a lingering "smell" of the Ring that used to be there 2 days ago!
A question immediately arises: how did they get the horses that were left by the Stonebows bridge to Crickhollow? The answer can only be obtained from a draft published in HOME 7 "The treason of Isengard", p.13: 28th they 'located' him and went to get the help of G. On the night of the 29th DEG crossed the River by the Ferry.
WOW! The nazgul crossed the river by ferry! That was an act of supreme courage on the part of beings who " feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. -UT"

Note that according to the later version in RC, it were our bold G (the bridge-guardian), and H (Khamul's buddy from Dol-Guldur) who did the deed. Hundred points to GH!:cool:
Khamul remained in Crickhollow, watching the house, and did it badly, as he missed Fatty's flight. 50 points from Khamul.:p

Now questions.
1. Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house?
2. Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry?
3. Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house?

[Alcuin]

...from a draft published in HOME 7 "The treason of Isengard", p.13:

28th they 'located' him and went to get the help of G. On the night of the 29th DEG crossed the River by the Ferry.

WOW! The nazgul crossed the river by ferry! That was an act of supreme courage on the part of beings who " feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. -UT"

Someone must have taken the Nazgûl across the Brandywine by ferry. I don’t believe they could have managed it themselves: sight is an important component in operating a boat or raft, and they were already in unfamiliar territory. They might have convinced a local hobbit to do it for them using bribery or terror or both (though I wonder if they killed the poor soul and dumped him in the drink afterwards?), but there is another possibility: Lotho Sackville-Baggins no doubt figured prominently in Saruman’s maps and documents that the Witch-king “liberated� from Saruman’s half-orc Southron spy whom the Witch-king “persuaded� to turn coat. Do we have any evidence that Lotho might have helped them? And even if he did not, is it reasonable to assume that they did not first visit the Sackville-Bagginses in South Farthing? They’d have quickly discovered there was no Ring there, but they’d have also discovered how to reach the “real� Baggins diggings they wanted further north.

[Gordis]

Someone must have taken the Nazgûl across the Brandywine by ferry. I don’t believe they could have managed it themselves: sight is an important component in operating a boat or raft, and they were already in unfamiliar territory.
You forget it had happened at night. At night they were not blind: "They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared." -Aragorn, LOTR
So, I don't believe they needed a living man or hobbit to operate the ferry. Moreover, the presence of an unfamiliar midget on the raft might have unnerved the horses.

They might have convinced a local hobbit to do it for them using bribery or terror or both (though I wonder if they killed the poor soul and dumped him in the drink afterwards?)

Theoretically could have got a hobbit on the West (Shire) bank, from one of the farms near the ferry, but I don't think it was easy. Maggot had helped Frodo and K on Sept. 25, so I bet by the night of 28-29 all the neighbors were barricaded in their houses from early nightfall till full daylight. The nazgul didn't have enough time to go in search of Lotho or other "friendly" hobbits further West from the river. Add to that that most Shire hobbits were unfamiliar with boats and feared crossing the river almost as much as the nazgul themselves did. Would someone like Sam be of much help?:p

No I think it were G and E who operated the raft. E by the way had recent boating experience: Khamul and he and 9 horses were ferried from Dol Guldur across the Anduin to meet the other Seven in northern Rohan back in the summer.
Lotho Sackville-Baggins no doubt figured prominently in Saruman’s maps and documents that the Witch-king “liberated” from Saruman’s half-orc Southron spy whom the Witch-king “persuaded” to turn coat. Do we have any evidence that Lotho might have helped them? And even if he did not, is it reasonable to assume that they did not first visit the Sackville-Bagginses in South Farthing? They’d have quickly discovered there was no Ring there, but they’d have also discovered how to reach the “real” Baggins diggings they wanted further north.
I think it is reasonable to assume that Khamul and K did visit Lotho first thing after crossing at Sarn Ford. Probably they got exact directions to Bag End.

[Alcuin]

Names and proposed nicknames to replace letters.

These letters are cumbersome.

Just to make it easier on my eyeballs and my aging mind, I’d like to propose some working names for these characters to help me keep up with who’s who. If anyone doesn’t like them or prefers some other name, please speak up! It’s just very confusing and frustrating to talk about B & E & G & especially I, which is easily confused with the pronoun.

Here’s Gordis’ list from the first post (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=642732&postcount=1), which uses Tolkien’s designations in the manuscripts.

A is the Witch-King, Black Captain. Directed the operation from Andrath, visited the Barrows, then rode to Weathertop, fought with Gandalf, attacked Frodo, then patrolled the road to the Ford.

BC are two nazgul, who remain with the Captain at Andrath to guard the Breeland from the south and from the East. From Weathertop were sent to follow Gandalf north-east. Prepared the ambush at the Ford. BC always stick together. Likely they are the strongest of the Eight.

D is Khamul, the Shadow of the East, Lieutenant of Dol Guldur and Second to the chief. "He was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.-UT" Directed the search of the Shire, the attack on Crickhollow, on Oct. 3-6 guarded Weathertop with the Witch-King, later guarded the Bridge of Mitheithel.

E is Khamul's companion and messenger from Dol Guldur. At the beginning of the Hunt he was never far from Khamul (leading the blind man around in day-time, most likely). Later became separated from Khamul and was in the group that followed Gandalf.

F - This one had to ride a lot: twice made a round-trip to Weathertop. He is the third nazgul in Bree, who was sent to the WK with the news, but got waylaid by the Dunedain. Uncharacteristically, F was separated from his pair G from the start and also by the end. F often operated alone.

G - Was separated from F and added to DE, guarded the horses and the Bridge over Baranduin, then was riding with HI, also traveled a lot.

HI - inseparable pair, the two nazgul in Bree. Also had to ride a lot.


H and I are the two I (Alcuin) and others referred to as “Frick and Frack.� Since both those words begin with the same letter, let’s dispense with them.

Here’s my proposed list:


A is the Witch-King. He doesn’t want another nickname.
B gets the nickname Buddy because ’s the Witch-king’s buddy since they stay together a lot.
C gets the nickname Chum. He’s Buddy’s chum because they often go together on assignments.
D is Khamûl. He doesn’t want another name, either.
E gets the nickname Ed. He’s Joe Camel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Camel)’s brother and he hangs out with Khamûl. F gets the nickname Fred because “Frick� and “Frack� were already misused.
G gets the nickname George because it starts with “G� and I can’t come up with anything inventive right this moment.
H gets the nickname Homer (D’oh! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXCbAtkgNMw) He was unfortunately referred to earlier as “Frick�. D’oh! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u42x2Sa9d88&feature=related))
I gets the nickname Ida because she hangs out with Homer and Marge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_Simpson) starts with an “M� and “Frack� doesn’t.


Again, nickname changes welcome. I’d just like to dispense with the confusing and frustrating letters, if no one objects too much to a little silliness for clarity’s sake.

[Gordis]

Here’s my proposed list:


A is the Witch-King. He doesn’t want another nickname.
B gets the nickname Buddy because ’s the Witch-king’s buddy since they stay together a lot.
C gets the nickname Chum. He’s Buddy’s chum because they often go together on assignments.
D is Khamûl. He doesn’t want another name, either.
E gets the nickname Ed. He’s Joe Camel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Camel)’s brother and he hangs out with Khamûl. F gets the nickname Fred because “Frick� and “Frack� were already misused.
G gets the nickname George because it starts with “G� and I can’t come up with anything inventive right this moment.
H gets the nickname Homer (D’oh! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXCbAtkgNMw) He was unfortunately referred to earlier as “Frick�. D’oh! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u42x2Sa9d88&feature=related))
I gets the nickname Ida because she hangs out with Homer and Marge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_Simpson) starts with an “M� and “Frack� doesn’t.


Again, nickname changes welcome. I’d just like to dispense with the confusing and frustrating letters, if no one objects too much to a little silliness for clarity’s sake.
Well,a little silliness won't hurt. I liked Fred+ George, quite fitting :D Are you a Harry Potter fan?
Perhaps to commemorate Weasley family more fully, we can call BC Bill and Charles?:D

I didn't understand the reasoning behind Ida, though. Isn't it a girl's name? Maybe call him Ilion, to match Homer?

[Earniel]

Or maybe we should name G Gordis? ;)

[Gordis]

Heh :D
But I don't have an F-buddy!

[Alcuin]

Ok, ladies, let’s behave: there are youngsters present.

No, I’m not a Harry Potter fan. I have no idea who Fred + George are, but if you like the names, I’m delighted.

I don’t know who Bill and Charles are, either. Bill and Charles: how about Buck and Chuck?

“Homer� came from “Homer Simpson (http://www.thesimpsons.com/bios/bios_family_homer.htm)� because I’d referred to H & I as “Frick and Frack� and facetiously accused them of incompetence. Homer Simpson’s wife is Marge, but “Marge� begins with the wrong letter, so I settled for “Ida�. Homer and Idaho? (as in, “I – D’oh! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khSIYmTzt6U&feature=related)�) After all, if Indiana Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones) can hunt for ancient treasures for the US government, surely “Idaho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Smith) Smith (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fosG7tmWTZ8)� can hunt for the Ring for Sauron, right?

I am neutral on this as long as the monikers are short and easy to remember. In the meantime, I am arranging notes on this end.

[Gordis]

Oh, call them whatever you like, as long as the first letter matches.;)

But I would love people (if anyone is interested in it:)) try to answer my questions regarding the Crickhollow episode:


Now questions.
1. Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house?
2. Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry?
3. Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house?

[CAB]

1.Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house?
I would say that, since they did not know what or who was in the house, they needed all the help they could get. The supposed inhabitant of this house had just been with some Noldorian Elves, was a known friend of the recently escaped Gandalf, and lived in a land actively guarded by Rangers. Khamul did not know what waited for him behind the door.

Of course, their horses were enormously important to the Nazgul. They were combination seeing eye dogs/transportation without which this mission would have been unthinkable. In this case, whether the Nazgul were to chase, be chased, or simply move on to the next stage, their horses were vital.

Another way to look at it is: Was it of greater importance to be more certain of retrieving the Ring, or was it more important to be a couple of hours quicker in retrieving it?


2.Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry?

Yes, I think secrecy was that important. They were deep in unfamiliar enemy territory. What would the Nazgul have done, I wonder, if the ringbearer had holed up in a strong place? Laid siege to it? Look at what happened when the alarm was raised. Did the Nazgul take prisoners/ask questions/try to be very sure of which way the Ring went? No, they did what anyone in the same situation would do...run.

3.Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house?
Unless there is something in the notes you have been quoting which says otherwise, I don't think they were outside the house all that long. After the 3 Nazgul approached the house, Fatty ran “more than a mile� and babbled a little while before the alarm was raised. Since we can probably safely assume he didn't merely jog to his neighbors' house, I would think 20 minutes or less probably passed between the Nazgul taking their positions outside the house and breaking down the door. That isn't too long and can probably be explained by need for caution and/or even hesitation in entering a potentially very important and dangerous situation.

[Gordis]

Another way to look at it is: Was it of greater importance to be more certain of retrieving the Ring, or was it more important to be a couple of hours quicker in retrieving it?


Very good reasoning there, Thurin! I can't agree more.
Thank you for your answers.

So, shall we move on?

[CAB]

Thank you.

Sounds good to me. I look forward to seeing your take on the next part of the story.

[Gordis]

So, let us turn to the adventures of the other nazgul company (ABCF), led by Angmar, the Lord of the Nazgul.

On the night of September 22, after having forced the passage over Sarn Ford, the WK sent Khamul and his group across the Ford into the Shire, while he himself and BCF "took care" of the remaining rangers. The latter, cut off on the south-eastern Bank of Baranduin, took flight north along the Greenway, likely attempting to reach Bree. (Did they know that Aragorn was there, I wonder?). The nazgul on their swift horses soon overtook the Dunedain and either cut them down, or drove them into the wilderness east of the road. Anyway, not a single one reached Bree, it seems.
Question: how many rangers were there at Sarn Ford to begin with you think? And how many survived?

Then, Angmar likely left Fred to guard Sarn Ford, and together with Buddy and Chum he made a camp at Andrath (where the road passes between the Barrowdowns and the South Downs).

What does a nazgul camp look like, I wonder? I bet they didn't light a campfire... But did they have a tent with them, for instance? Did they sleep at all?

Was the place of the camp chosen wisely? Or was it too far both from Bree and the Shire?

[Alcuin]

Wait. I thought all the Nazgûl were at Sarn Ford: that's why the Dúnedain there were overcome, was it not?

[Gordis]

All the Nine were there together when they overcame the guard of rangers. But some rangers took flight up the Greenway and only 4 of the nazgul (ABCF) pursued them. The other 5 nazgul under Khamul crossed the Ford into The Shire.

What is curious, is that seemingly the rangers were positioned on the South-Eastern bank of Baranduin, with the Ford at their backs. Why not wait on the further bank, the Shire bank, where they could shoot at those who try to cross?

[CAB]

What does a nazgul camp look like, I wonder? I bet they didn't light a campfire... But did they have a tent with them, for instance


My guess would be that there were no tents in this camp. You said earlier that Sauron ordered the Nazgul to use haste in hunting the Ring. Anything beyond the bare necessities would be a hindrance to speed. Perhaps on other journeys, when speed was less of an issue, Angmar set up camps and tents similar to those used by other great Numenorean lords during their travels in the Second Age, though surely with a darker feel.
Did they sleep at all?
I personally don't think that the Nazgul slept. It doesn't seem to fit with their tortured existences. Surely they weren't active 24/7, though.

Was the place of the camp chosen wisely? Or was it too far both from Bree and the Shire?
Maybe he was keeping his distance to keep his “aura� from making his presence known?

Really, from what I can see on your map, it looks like he chose a strategically strong position. Looking at the lines you drew indicating the Nazguls' movements on your Bree-Weathertop map, doesn't it seem like a nice, centralized location – right in the middle of all the action?

What is curious, is that seemingly the rangers were positioned on the South-Eastern bank of Baranduin, with the Ford at their backs. Why not wait on the further bank, the Shire bank, where they could shoot at those who try to cross?

Maybe the Dunedain were not allowed to enter the Shire. As you no doubt remember, Aragorn later made this a law for all Men.

What I find interesting about this is the thought that, as Gandalf pointed out, though the Nazgul couldn't be killed with arrows, their steeds could. The loss of their horses would have been truly devastating for the Nazgul at this point, but apparently the rangers were unable to unhorse even one of the Nine. The horses should have undoubtedly and without question been their targets.

[Gordis]

My guess would be that there were no tents in this camp. You said earlier that Sauron ordered the Nazgul to use haste in hunting the Ring. Anything beyond the bare necessities would be a hindrance to speed. Perhaps on other journeys, when speed was less of an issue, Angmar set up camps and tents similar to those used by other great Numenorean lords during their travels in the Second Age, though surely with a darker feel.
Hmm, I am not so sure. The nazgul were on the move since summer. They had to prepare for a long journey, far from any friendly (and even unfriendly) civilization. The first part of their journey up and down the Anduin was not made in haste, far from it. And they still carried all the things they received from Mordor on the 17th of July. I think they had spare clothes (the WK surely had a spare cloak, as he had replaced the one lost at Weathertop), boots, spare harness, spare horseshoes and tools, likely some medicine, at least for the horses. They also carried gold (to bribe people) - maybe a lot of it. I would expect them to have at least one tent also - to use during rains etc.
Otherwise what would constitute "a camp" which had to be "made"? I don't think some saddlebags hidden in the bushes would count as camp.

I personally don't think that the Nazgul slept. It doesn't seem to fit with their tortured existences. Surely they weren't active 24/7, though.
You are right. We are told that "[the Witch-King's] horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none" -RC p.262. I think it relates to all of the Nine. So when two nazgul were guarding the Greenway, they were likely taking turns: one was riding around and the other was guarding the camp with his horse grazing/sleeping nearby.

Maybe he was keeping his distance to keep his “aura� from making his presence known?
Again, you are right, IMHO. The lesser nazgul undoubtedly could "tone down" their terror and speak with ordinary men or hobbits without spooking the latter too much. But the terror of the WK was far greater, so, maybe even toned down to a minimum, it was still too great to bear. Grima and Saruman's spy in UT nearly died from terror when they were questioned by Angmar in person.
That may be one of the reasons why he himself didn't go into the Shire or to Bree, but remained behind. The other reason was the necessity to guard the approaches to the area from the East (Rivendell) and especially from the South. Remember what Saruman told the WK in Isengard?
And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby."- UT
Now after having questioned Saruman's spy, the WK was aware that Saruman was a traitor to Mordor. Saruman himself admitted his interest in the Ring. Thus the WK could easily expect the arrival not only of Gandalf, but of Saruman as well. Perhaps the two Istari were in league and were riding hard from Isengard to get the Ring? Anyway, even one maia was a great threat.

Really, from what I can see on your map, it looks like he chose a strategically strong position. Looking at the lines you drew indicating the Nazguls' movements on your Bree-Weathertop map, doesn't it seem like a nice, centralized location – right in the middle of all the action?
Yes, it would seem so. Unfortunately, the lesser nazgul, when twarthed and upset, had a tendency to abandon their posts and ride to complain to the Captain. We'll see this later.

Maybe the Dunedain were not allowed to enter the Shire. As you no doubt remember, Aragorn later made this a law for all Men.
That was rather unpractical in times of war: they paid for it.

What I find interesting about this is the thought that, as Gandalf pointed out, though the Nazgul couldn't be killed with arrows, their steeds could. The loss of their horses would have been truly devastating for the Nazgul at this point, but apparently the rangers were unable to unhorse even one of the Nine. The horses should have undoubtedly and without question been their targets.
The rangers could have killed a few horses if they could barrage the nazgul with arrows from the other bank, while the Black riders were carefully making their way across the river. As it was, the rangers were on the near bank, at the entrance to the Ford. The Nine came at night, so it was necessarily a hand-to hand fighting of 9 horsemen against unknown number of foot soldiers. Even without accounting for nazgul terror it was a lost cause on the ranger's part anyway.

[CAB]

Hmm, I am not so sure. The nazgul were on the move since summer. They had to prepare for a long journey, far from any friendly (and even unfriendly) civilization. The first part of their journey up and down the Anduin was not made in haste, far from it. And they still carried all the things they received from Mordor on the 17th of July. I think they had spare clothes (the WK surely had a spare cloak, as he had replaced the one lost at Weathertop), boots, spare harness, spare horseshoes and tools, likely some medicine, at least for the horses. They also carried gold (to bribe people) - maybe a lot of it. I would expect them to have at least one tent also - to use during rains etc.
Otherwise what would constitute "a camp" which had to be "made"? I don't think some saddlebags hidden in the bushes would count as camp.
You could be right. However, I could argue that carrying all these more essential things left that much less room for less essential things such as tents. There were no spare horses to carry extra baggage, as I recall. The Nazgul didn't need to eat or sleep away from the elements or bugs and that is what tents are for. Also, it may have just been simpler for Tolkien to write that they “set up camp� rather than saying that “the Witch King picked a spot to stay but didn't have the need or equipment to set up a traditional camp�. Just my opinion – I could certainly be mistaken.


Now after having questioned Saruman's spy, the WK was aware that Saruman was a traitor to Mordor. Saruman himself admitted his interest in the Ring. Thus the WK could easily expect the arrival not only of Gandalf, but of Saruman as well. Perhaps the two Istari were in league and were riding hard from Isengard to get the Ring? Anyway, even one maia was a great threat.
I agree that the Witch King had to be concerned about the involvement of Gandalf and/or Saruman. This brings up a point that I have attempted to make before (I suppose this would be a good time to mention that I used to post here as CAB....different computer, email address, screen name – same person), the Nazgul really had a very difficult task in attempting to capture the Ring. They are portrayed as the fearsome, unstoppable invaders, but on closer examination are more like handicapped, outnumbered, outgunned, under-informed underdogs far from home or aid. Though they failed, I think they did as well as could be expected, given the situation in which they were placed.




The rangers could have killed a few horses if they could barrage the nazgul with arrows from the other bank, while the Black riders were carefully making their way across the river. As it was, the rangers were on the near bank, at the entrance to the Ford. The Nine came at night, so it was necessarily a hand-to hand fighting of 9 horsemen against unknown number of foot soldiers. Even without accounting for nazgul terror it was a lost cause on the ranger's part anyway.
I have never fully understood why killing horses ridden by warriors is so difficult, but it clearly is or else cavalry would not have been so effective throughout the ages.

I would like to give you a guess concerning your question about the number of rangers present at Sarn Ford, but I honestly have no idea.

[Gordis]

CAB!!!
I am so happy to see you again! :)
Discussing Tolkien with you is always a great pleasure.


And you are right about the"handicapped, outnumbered, outgunned, under-informed underdogs far from home or aid.":)

[CAB]

It is good to hear from you, too.:)

I had set up this screen name just to participate some in the riddle thread, but saw that you and Alcuin were back and couldn't resist.

I hope we keep this thread active. It is too interesting and you have put too much work into it to let it sit unfinished. Many thanks to Alcuin for bumping it.