Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry in Bree?

[Alcuin]

Prodded by a post in the thread “Emblem of Minas Morgul (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=641997&posted=1#post641997)”, I want to frame and pose a question that has long troubled me.

It certainly appears that at least one, if not both, of the men trying to kidnap Merry in the east end of Bree was a Ringwraith. The scene first appears, as far as I know, in Return of the Shadow, and begins with Merry bursting into the sitting-room at the Prancing Pony with Trotter (later Strider) and Bingo (later Frodo) discussing Barnabas Butterbur (later Barliman, and at this point a hobbit) and Gandalf’s letter to Bingo (Frodo), which Butterbur has just delivered. Merry enters and declares that he has seen a Black Rider in Bree. He followed the Rider and his horse to the east end of the village, “heard him speaking, or whispering, to someone on the other side” of a dark hedge. Then Merry “came over all queer and trembling suddenly, and bolted back.” (All from the chapter, “Trotter and the Journey to Weathertop”) Merry has not fainted. There is no Nob, there is not yet a gatekeeper or a West Gate. It seems that the Ringwraith was speaking to Bill Ferny, but perhaps there was another Rider on the other side of the hedge.

Later in the chapter “To Weathertop and Rivendell” (still in Return of the Shadow), CJR Tolkien notes that Merry’s story of the Black Rider whom he saw outside the inn and followed differ in … that whereas in the original version … the Rider went though the village from west to east and stopped at Bill Ferny’s house (hole), hereand CJR Tolkien begins to cite the draft narrative, ‘He was coming from the east,’ Merry went on. ‘I followed him down the Road almost to the gate. He stopped at the keeper’s house, and I thought heard him talking to someone. I tried to creep near… I am afraid I suddenly began to shiver and shake, and bolted back here.’In this case, the Rider may be speaking to Harry the Gatekeeper, who has now appeared in the story as a character suborned by the Nazgûl.

In Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark”, notes for p 177 (I:189), Hammond and Scull cite Tolkien’s notes on the event for the finalized form of the book:…three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road
reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king]. . . . [He] is waylaid by the Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day . . . . [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night. . . . The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn.(All the elisions and editorial parentheticals in this citation are as cited from Hammond and Scull in Reader’s Companion. There is more to their citation after that, but nothing elided by me in this passage. By the way, “Marquette MSS 4/2/36” does not indicate that the papers were composed in 1936, before the publication of the The Hobbit. The numbers have something to do with how Marquette University numbered the boxes and documents they purchased from Tolkien. “MSS” is an abbreviation for “manuscripts”. This manuscript is part of Tolkien’s nearly finished work on the time scheme for the movements of the Black Riders.)

Now, in the text as it stands, in Fellowship of the Ring, near the end of the chapter “Strider”, Merry bursts into the room “followed by Nob.” He was standing “just outside the light of the lamp”, presumably the lamp in front of the Inn, when he saw the Ringwraith across the road in the shadows. “There was no horse.” Merry followed to the east end of town to the last house on the road, Bill Ferny’s. He continued on. Then”I seemed to be drawn… I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering, and the other was whispering, or hissing… I began to tremble all over. … I was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me, and I . . . I fell over.”

“I found him, sir,” put in Nob. “… Just nigh Bill Ferny’s house, I thought I could see something in the Road. … it looked to me as if two men was stooping over something, lifting it. I gave a shout, but when I got to the spot there was no sign of them, only Mr. Brandybuck lying by the roadside.”
Why in the world did the two Nazgûl leave Merry by the roadside and not shanghai him off to the Witch-king, or at least to the woods outside town to wring all he knew out of him? It might not have been the same as catching Frodo, but it would have been a tremendous coup to get one of his companions. Then they attack the Inn without success. (Who are these two Ringwraiths, Frick and Frack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frick_and_Frack)?)

And kudos to the Dúnedain who waylaid the messenger sent to the Witch-king. They could not stand all Nine at Sarn Ford, but they seemed to have redeemed themselves in preventing the messenger from arriving in a timely fashion, which might have proven fatal.

I apologize for the length of this starter. But I want to establish two things: It was definitely Black Riders who were trying to kidnap Merry, but dropped him. It was definitely Black Riders – moreover, the same two – who attacked the Inn and ruined Mr. Butterbur’s good bolsters.
Why did they drop Merry? That really bothers me. They couldn’t possibly have been scared of Nob, and it’s not as if he’d have been able to stop them. They were near the edge of the village: did they expect the whole town to come out after them? And even if they had, couldn’t two Nazgûl scare the willies out of a bunch of Breefolk in the dark and sent them scampering back into town while they made off with their catch?


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Added (much) later. No other changes to this post except this addition.

Since starting this thread, I have discovered that “Marquette MSS 4/2/36” stands for “Marquette manuscripts series 4, box 2, folder 36”.

[Valandil]

From what I recall, Ringwraiths don't see very well.

Is it possible that they thought Merry was just some ole Bree-hobbit?

[Olmer]

Theirs agenda was to keep them going in the designated direction, otherwise they wouldn't play "hide-and-seek" in the woods with unarmed hobbits.:evil:
So, as it have been done before, they just scared them not to get too cozy in Bree and hit the road sooner.

[CAB]

Is it possible that they thought Merry was just some ole Bree-hobbit?My question also.

[Gordis]

Merry got caught by the east gate of Bree, far-far from the Prancing Pony. He was not the only hobbit in Bree, not even one of the four hobbits in Bree - there were lots and lots of them, hundreds or more, all alike. Merry was caught far from the Inn, he had no Ring - why would the nazgul deem keeping and questioning him important? There was nothing to link Merry to the Ringbearer.

Moreover, at the moment, the nazgul were trying very hard not to cause any commotion, because at the very same time, Bill and the Southerner were telling them something very important: the story about a hobbit disappearing into thin air in the common room of the Pony.;)

taken from here (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=631733&postcount=22)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I agree with Gordis. And I disagree that both premises in the OP are certain:
1. It was definitely Black Riders who were trying to kidnap Merry, but dropped him.
2. It was definitely Black Riders – moreover, the same two – who attacked the Inn and ruined Mr. Butterbur’s good bolsters.

As for 1, I think it is unlikely a kidnapping was in progress, at least not in the traditional sense. They may have been wanting to carry him off until he woke up, just to find out from him how much he heard while spying on them.

And for 2, the quote you produce from Tolkien's notes is compelling. I had long thought the Inn was attacked by Nazgul until reading a discussion on another board that seemed to prove otherwise. I don't remember the reasoning or evidence but I remember being convinced that the Nazgul planned and sponsored the attack but were more likely waiting outside when the bolsters were ruined by men in their service. Now I'm just confused. I guess if you change the "definitely" to "probably" then I'm right there with you.

[Alcuin]

Just to be clear, the Marquette manuscripts are important because they are the documents Tolkien was using to track the Nazgûl and their movements as he was completing The Lord of the Rings. I have read the referenced post (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=631733&postcount=22), and while it is a point that anyone can debate as long as they like, I think that the evidence is clear: the characters who trashed the hobbits’ room at the Prancing Pony were the two Nazgûl. That is explicitly what is in Tolkien’s notes (the source for the essay “Hunt for the Ring”), and there is no evidence to the contrary. “The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn.” They went to the Inn to get the Ring, they searched the room when they didn’t find anybody there, and then they trashed it out of frustration.

“[The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry” is just as explicit. The two men lifting Merry are Nazgûl.

Look, these are the notes on the Ringwraiths’ movements that Tolkien used to write the final text. That’s why they’re important. That’s why they’re cited extensively in Reader’s Companion.

So, why did the Nazgûl drop Merry? To flush the hobbits out of town? Maybe, but that doesn’t seem a very good method: they might decide that with ruffians – or Ringwraiths – about, it’s safer in town than on the Road, so that doesn’t seem like a very good plan. Because there are lots of hobbits in Bree, and this one might just be one of the hundreds that lived there? Come on, the Ringwraith saw him walk out of the Inn, knows he followed him down the street, and then Merry says he “seemed to be drawn” – he was “lured” to continue to investigate, in some way felt compelled to approach the Nazgûl at the hedge. (Was the mumbling a spell of some sort?) They meant to grab him. Why did they let him go?

[Gordis]

“[The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry” is just as explicit. The two men lifting Merry are Nazgûl.
Of course they are, at least one of them: it is clear from the LOTR text itself where Merry's reaction is described.

So, why did the Nazgûl drop Merry?
They have just heard that the Ring certainly was in the Pony half an hour ago and got the description of the Ringbearer. It was not the right moment to kidnap other hobbits who might prove to be totally unrelated to the matter.

Because there are lots of hobbits in Bree, and this one might just be one of the hundreds that lived there? Come on, the Ringwraith saw him walk out of the Inn, knows he followed him down the street,
The Ringwraith couldn't see Merry walk out of the Inn, because he didn't walk out of it.;) Instead he came towards the inn:
I stayed indoors for an hour. Then as you did not come back, I went out for a stroll. I had come back again and was standing just outside the light of the lamp looking at the stars. Suddenly I shivered and felt that something horrible was creeping near:

and then Merry says he “seemed to be drawn” – he was “lured” to continue to investigate, in some way felt compelled to approach the Nazgûl at the hedge. (Was the mumbling a spell of some sort?) They meant to grab him. Why did they let him go?
I don't think the nazgul lured Merry to follow him. Maybe he did, but maybe Merry was just being inquisitive. It reminds me how Frodo walked in a daze towards Minas Morgul...
All things nazgul are most attractive.:cool:

[Alcuin]

They have just heard that the Ring certainly was in the Pony half an hour ago and got the description of the Ringbearer. It was not the right moment to kidnap other hobbits who might prove to be totally unrelated to the matter.
...
The Ringwraith couldn't see Merry walk out of the Inn, because he didn't walk out of it.;) Instead he came towards the inn:I cannot disagree. It’s just a very weak excuse, and worse, it’s an excuse, not a good reason, at least for the Nazgûl. After all, these are Nazgûl, and not likely to be too particular about who they torture or maim or kill, so torturing, maiming, or killing some local hobbit “by accident” wouldn’t phase them at all, I don’t expect. And it probably wouldn’t come to that for most people they’d encountered over their long careers as bogeys: most people would just spill the beans out of sheer terror, like the Isengard spy, the sallow-faced, squint-eyed southerner that the Witch-king “recruited”.

Dropping Merry because they didn’t know who he was, or had some doubt that he might be one of the four hobbits they were hunting, is just very unsatisfying. It’s weak.

I must also point out that, in the earlier versions of the story, Merry was not picked up by the Nazgûl: he bolted back before they got him. Maybe this part of the story is a little rough. (It is a story, after all, and there are a few rough edges.)

I don't think the nazgul lured Merry to follow him. Maybe he did, but maybe Merry was just being inquisitive. It reminds me how Frodo walked in a daze towards Minas Morgul...
All things nazgul are most attractive.:cool:Aw, you’re just sayin’ that ’cause you’re a N… ah… uh… um… Well, you know… ;)


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I still don’t understand why the Nazgûl dropped Merry. And I don’t like the reasoning that he just might have been a local, and uninvolved. (Of course, Prof. Tolkien failed to consult me concerning my likes and dislikes when he was writing…)

[Attalus]

Merry got caught by the east gate of Bree, far-far from the Prancing Pony. He was not the only hobbit in Bree, not even one of the four hobbits in Bree - there were lots and lots of them, hundreds or more, all alike. Merry was caught far from the Inn, he had no Ring - why would the nazgul deem keeping and questioning him important? There was nothing to link Merry to the Ringbearer.

I agree with Gordis, here. It would be like waylaying a random Hobbit in the Southfarthing, and an unconscious one at that. People who have seen service all testify to what a bother prisoners were, and how little non-specialists can get from them, My feeling is that The Ringwraith was telling Ferny or Harry to drag Merry off the path to avoid raising the alarm, which of course is what happened.
BTW, many Tolkien scholars and readers doubt that the Ringwraiths were the ones who messed up the bolsters. It is my feeling that Ferny et al. were responsible.

[Alcuin]

I agree with Gordis, here. It would be like waylaying a random Hobbit in the Southfarthing, and an unconscious one at that. People who have seen service all testify to what a bother prisoners were, and how little non-specialists can get from them, I may be forced to accept this if no better explanation can emerge. (In which case I will still continue to hunt for something … more satisfying, at least to me.) I don’t like this explanation.

My feeling is that The Ringwraith was telling Ferny or Harry to drag Merry off the path to avoid raising the alarm, which of course is what happened.
BTW, many Tolkien scholars and readers doubt that the Ringwraiths were the ones who messed up the bolsters. It is my feeling that Ferny et al. were responsible.Tolkien explicitly says, in both cases, that these are the two Nazgûl that entered Bree after their companion rode south along the Greenway to tell the Witch-king they had found the Ringbearer. That’s what’s in Tolkien’s working notes, and one of the reasons I cited them and the previous versions of this part of the story is that I wanted to clearly establish that Merry was dealing with a Ringwraith in Bree from the earliest version to the last and published version. IMO, for those “many Tolkien scholars and readers” to show that was not the two Ringwraiths in Bree “who messed up the bolsters,” they must explain away the working notes. I think that is a heavy burden.

Besides, if Sauron wouldn’t send any of his other servants to hunt for the One Ring, why would the Nazgûl trust Bill Ferny, who according to Aragorn “would sell anything to anybody”? Or were they naïve?

[Coffeehouse]

As Alcuin writes it's not at all a satisfying explanation.

It would be like waylaying a random Hobbit in the Southfarthing, and an unconscious one at that.

That would be absolutely true if it weren't for the fact that Merry spotted what was almost certainly a Nazgûl just outside of the Inn. Merry tells the rest later that "Suddenly I shivered and felt that something horrible was creeping near: there was a sort of deeper shade among the shadows across the road, just beyond the edge of the lamplight. It slid away at once into the dark without a sound." (FOTR 1968 - 189).

Whether Merry had chosen to follow the Nazgûl for a few yards or across to the end of the town matters not: if one of the Nazgûl worked out that Merry had seen him from across the road by the Inn he must also have worked out that there was a fair chance that Merry was one of the four hobbits. Instead of pursuing that possible lead the Nazgûl instead most likely knock him unconscious. Yet again the Nazgûl seem to prove that they shy away from acting in a calculated and inquisitive manner whenever they get the chance.

[Gordis]

Just let us look at the happenings in Bree closer and calculate the time.

The 3 hobbits went to the common room; there they were telling stories, singing songs, disappearing into thin air and meeting Strider.
Meanwhile Merry sat for an hour indoors alone, then went for a stroll through Bree . This time he saw nothing out of the ordinary, so after a time he turned back towards the Inn.

Bill Ferny, the Southerner and Harry the Gatekeeper, as well as lots of other displeased customers all left the Inn right after the Ring-incident. Merry did'n see a crowd of people coming out of the Inn, so they must have left it before he returned, while he was still strolling through Bree.

Bill Ferny likely went directly home to his house by the East gate. I don't think he would risk to be seen talking with some bogeymen in the street near the Inn.

Sometime later, a Ringwraith approached the Inn to investigate and was spotted by Merry who was now looking at the stars by the entrance. The other two nazgul likely remained beyond the gates with the horses.
The other three hobbits were already closeted in their room with Strider and later Butterbur (remember how long this conversation was!).

Now what followed had not taken much time. Merry followed the wraith to Ferny's house, and saw him talking with someone:
suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I guess Merry witnessed [I]the very moment when Bill Ferny (the muttering one) was telling the nazgul (the whispering or hissing one) about Frodo's performance with the Ring in the Inn. For the nazgul the news was so very interesting, vital, stimulating, long-expected etc., that I guess normally he would have hardly heeded a mumak if it happened to tramp by :D. Yet, on this secret mission the nazgul senses were on the alert and he felt that someone was looking at him (A+ to the nazgul :cool:).

Then Merry began to tremble all over. He turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when the nazgul came behind him and he swooned.

Now what would you expect the nazgul to do? He had just learned the very news he was hunting for: the exact whereabouts of the One Ring. He had to alert his two colleagues immediately and send one of them to warn the Captain. He had to plan with the others what to do the coming night about the Ring in the Inn. He had no time for waiting for the hobbit to come to an to question him.

There was no time and NO NEED to question the captured hobbit, even if he were one of the four (which the nazgul couldn't know). The nazgul had already learnt all he wanted to know and now was the time to act - and to act fast.

I guess the nazgul only checked that the swooned hobbit had no Ring and then, together with Ferny, they were about to carry Merry into Bill's house, not to leave him lying on the road for all to see. Another possibility was to throw him in a ditch, but I believe the note in RC quoted by Alcuin "failed to capture Merry" indicates the nazgul ordered Ferny to bind Merry and keep him as a prisoner - for later questioning if the need arises.

But for now Merry was practically useless, so when Nob arrived, they simply left Merry and retreated. It was no good to provoke trouble in Bree right before they were going to pay the Inn a quiet visit.

Doesn't it make sense?

[CAB]

I think it is a good explanation, Gordis. One problem may be that Ferny could have been expected to notice that Merry was an outsider in Bree, maybe even specifically a Shire Hobbit (if there was a difference in dress between Shire and Bree-land Hobbits). This could probably be explained away by the darkness, though.

[Alcuin]

A few quibbles.

Harry Goatleaf the Gatekeeper is now removed from the Prancing Pony in the editions of LotR printed after 2004. His presence in the Inn was a carry-over from earlier versions of the story. See Reader’s Companion 160 (I: 172) for a full explanation.

Bill Ferny and his squint-eyed companion (the Isengard spy) probably went straight home and told the Nazgûl immediately about the three hobbits in the commons room. Ferny was probably the spy’s local contact, and a spy himself; as such, the Nazgûl would have paid him a friendly visit along with their new buddy the Isengard spy, and Ferny, always ready to adapt and adjust, made new friends. I expect the messenger Nazgûl set out along the Greenway immediately, but he is waylaid by Dúnedain along the road and does not reach the boss until the next day, after Strider has already led the hobbits out of town.

Ferny and the Isengard spy had not, of course, seen Merry, but Harry the Gatekeeper knew that four had entered town, and could have given at least a rough description of him. Bree is not a big place: Ferny would have recognized every hobbit in the community, and most in the surrounding communities, if not by name, by face. Merry was obviously an outsider to him. Merry was identifiable as a stranger, and thus a person of interest.

Whomever the Ringwraith was talking to on the other side of the hedge might be inconsequential. It could be another Nazgûl casting a “come hither” spell, compelling Merry to approach them. They didn’t hit him over the head, by the way: he fainted from fear projected by the Nazgul, which Aragorn identified as Black Breath. Perhaps the mumbling was a “project Black Breath” spell. Or maybe it was Bill Ferny saying, that guy’s not from Bree.

The text of the working notes says that there were two Ringwraiths in Bree. It says so twice. It says Frick and Frack were “foiled in their attempt to capture Merry”, made “plans for attack on the Inn at night”, and ”The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn” Tolkien used letters to designate each Nazgûl, so he knew which one was where doing what and when.

The Nazgûl hadn’t “just learned” about Merry and his friends, but it was certainly recent, and I agree they had found out about Frodo’s unfortunate “accident” only an hour or so before Merry reached the hedge. (The text indicates that Frodo and Aragorn separately believed something had helpde bring on the “accident”.) I think there is very little room to doubt that the third Nazgûl was already riding to Andrath to report to the Witch-king that the Ringbearer had been located. I do think it is possible – unlikely, but possible – that the two Nazgûl still in Bree fouled the job by assigning Ferny and the Isengard spy the job of getting Merry into the house, but I really don’t think so: I think they did it themselves, and either inexplicably muffed it or stopped for some other reason.

It was no good to provoke trouble in Bree right before they were going to pay the Inn a quiet visit.

Doesn't it make sense?Yes! Thank you! Yes it does.

That has to be it. They did recognize Merry as the fourth Shire-hobbit, and that has to be Ferny’s work. Whether Ferny and the spy, or Ferny and a Ringwraith, or IMO more likely the two Ringwraiths together were hauling him off, once Nob appeared, that game was up. Nob was shouting at them, and if they’d tried to silence him, that could have created a ruckus, and a disturbance that might allow the Ringbearer to escape again was not what they wanted. The Nazgûl could communicate over long distances with one another with their keening, and the Shire team, lead by Khamûl, and the East Road team were sending reports back to Andrath. The Shire team did not know that the Ringbearer had been found, of course: they didn’t have cell phones. But the East Road team may well have known by now that their bird had flown three times already: at Bag End, in Woody End, and at the Brandywine. Khamûl and his team were to break into Crickhollow and root him out if he was still there; the East Road team found him, but if they already knew he’d slipped the Shire bunch two or three times, they were probably careful to try to keep him from suspecting the Inn might be attacked.

Once Merry escaped, he was sure to tell Frodo what had happened, and he was almost sure to recognize a Black Rider, even if he didn’t know its true nature. That rips a hole in the theory that they didn’t want to tip off the hobbits in the Inn; but it also means the whole town wouldn’t be up in arms because they suspected invaders were inside the gates. That would have led to confusion, and the Ringbearer could escape more easily during any town-wide confusion.

Nob musty have been too far away for them to kill, capture, or cow him to keep him quiet. Before they could get to him, he’d have raised enough alarm and created enough disorder that the Ringbearer could get away without being noticed.

Their whole problem had been finding the Ringbearer to capture him, and now that they had found him, they needed to keep him found long enough to capture him. Leaving Merry was preferable to having a mess, with the added benefit that the four of them were almost certainly going to hole up in the hobbit guest-rooms overnight, which Ferny could identify for them.

And that is why they were so frustrated that they tore the place apart: their beautiful plan didn’t work, and the <Black Speech expletive deleted> Ringbearer eluded them yet again! Of course, they didn’t suspect that lousy Ranger of anything… after all, he was “just a Ranger.”

Thanks, Gordis. That has bothered me for years.

BTW, this fits hand-in-glove with Strider’s leading them out by the main road the next morning, and of course, why they spooked the horses. Just as Aragorn said, the Ringbearer could no longer slip away quietly, nor could they go very fast. In fact, it probably helped the next stage of Frodo’s flight, because lots of ponies are easier to find than just one dispirited old animal that Ferny probably described to them as a useless beast anyway.

(Note: this was cross-posted with CAB’s post.)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

How about this? They're in the process of picking Merry up to carry him off, after already determining he didn't have The Ring. Then they sense/see/hear Nob coming along. I think the perfectly natural reaction for anyone, Nazgul or not, would be, "Oh crap. Another one! Forget it. Just leave him. Neither of these little guys have The Ring anyway." Then back to their actual mission.

[Coffeehouse]

I can agree that once Nob came running the Nazgûl had but no choice and leave Merry without further action.

Yet as some here have suggested, that the Nazgûl did not need to do anything with Merry because they already knew what they wanted and were in fact waiting to strike at night. But that logic falls short. After one of the Nazgûl has heard the news from the whereabouts of the ring-bearer they had every right to believe that they were only hours away from getting hold of the ring. All they had to do was wait until the middle of night and then strike.
But it did not turn out that way because Merry alerted the rest. That changed everything.
The Nazgûl were poor in judgement then to believe that they could just leave Merry lying there. By doing so they forfit whatever prior knowledge and plans they had because in all likelihood the ring-bearer won't be where they've been told he is.
If the Nazgûl had been clever they would have knocked Merry unconscious (as they did) and immediately grab him with them. They need not even interrogate him, they need not even kill him. All that was then required would be to make sure Merry did not make it to the Inn before their attack. The Nazgûl should have immediately changed their plan and made the attack right away or at least within a reasonable timespan of before Frodo & co start looking for Merry.

When letting Merry go, indeed, they knew that the ring was not present on him. But they should also had calculated that it was more than likely that Merry would alert the ring-bearer before that time. Because they did not do this their plan fell apart. Which to me concludes that they took a risk and got it wrong, yet again.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Why should the Nazgul suspect that one random hobbit out of hundreds that lived in and around the town would specifically go and warn the Ringbearer upon waking up from some mysterious blackout? Sure, Merry did warn them, but how and why would the Nazgul know or even suspect that he would?

[Coffeehouse]

I agree, it would be a high hill to climb to ask the Nazgûl to kidnap and/or interrogate just any hobbit wandering about Bree and who sees the Nazgûl conspirate with a local.

But that is not the case with Merry. He specifically stated that he was standing just outside the Inn, beneath a light, and saw, across the street a form blacker than shadow itself, which immediately fled when he looked towards it (thus we can infer that that form, the Nazgûl, spotted him).

He then proceeded to follow the Nazgûl all the way until he was eventually knocked unconscious. It appears obvious that the at least one of the Nazgûl then knew that a hobbit had from the entrance of the Inn followed themm, and thus Merry becomes an automatic suspect.

He isn't then just another local from anywhere in Bree, he's a hobbit first seen outside of the Inn, the very same place the Baggins with the Ring is.

Now there is obviously the possibility that Merry was just another local hobbit that had taken a pint at the Inn. But is that a chance the Nazgûl want to take? Seems so.

Perhaps one can think of it two ways:
a) The Nazgûl panicked when seeing Merry spying on them and knocked him unconscious to get rid of his prying eyes.
b) or the Nazgûl gambled: "Alright the hobbit came (most likely) from the Inn (since he was standing outside), but let's take a chance. We know where the Baggins is and if we're lucky he won't know the other hobbit we just knocked over.." *Shrill, cold laughter*

[Gordis]

A few quibbles.
Harry Goatleaf the Gatekeeper is now removed from the Prancing Pony in the editions of LotR printed after 2004. His presence in the Inn was a carry-over from earlier versions of the story. See Reader’s Companion 160 (I: 172) for a full explanation.
I know. BTW, I think Chris had no right to edit the text anyway. There are quite a few leftovers from the drafts left overlooked in the LOTR text - so, why remove this one and leave the others? And where one should stop in these edits?


Bill Ferny and his squint-eyed companion (the Isengard spy) probably went straight home and told the Nazgûl immediately about the three hobbits in the commons room. Wait-wait. Why do you think the nazgul were waiting in Ferny's house while he was drinking in the Pony? Why then, if they had already learnt Bill's news, was one nazgul hanging outside the Inn?

I believe the three nazgul remained outside of Bree, not at Bill's. It would be much safer and less conspicuous. Then I don't believe that Bill had a stable large enough to stable three big black horses - and all that without neighbors noticing a thing. Note Bill's buddy the Southerner stayed at the Inn, his horse in the Pony's stable.

At nightfall, one nazgul slipped into Bree, using Harry Goatleaf's gate, and went to investigate. He saw the Inn was getting empty (no noise anymore from the common room) and continued through Bree to Ferny's house.
Only then did he learn the news, and Merry witnessed it. The third nazgul yet had to be found and dispatched to Andrath.

Also I don't believe Merry overheard two nazgul talking between themselves. It just doesn't ring true. The nazgul either would have used Osanwe(most likely), or they would have spoken in the Black Tongue between themselves.
Yet Merry didn't describe the sounds they produced as repulsive or incomprehensible, he was simply said to be too far away to make out the words. I am pretty sure one of the guys by the hedge was a mortal, most likely Bill.

I think there is very little room to doubt that the third Nazgûl was already riding to Andrath to report to the Witch-king that the Ringbearer had been located.
I expect the messenger Nazgûl set out along the Greenway immediately, but he is waylaid by Dúnedain along the road and does not reach the boss until the next day, after Strider has already led the hobbits out of town. I agree, but immediately after he had learned the news - and that would be after Merry's incident, IMO.

Merry spent about 2 hours before following the nazgul; I believe the 3 hobbits also spent about 2 hours in the common room. Ferny barely had time to return home when the nazgul paid him a visit.

Ferny and the Isengard spy had not, of course, seen Merry, but Harry the Gatekeeper knew that four had entered town, and could have given at least a rough description of him. Bree is not a big place: Ferny would have recognized every hobbit in the community, and most in the surrounding communities, if not by name, by face. Merry was obviously an outsider to him. Merry was identifiable as a stranger, and thus a person of interest.
1. as CAB says, it was dark: too dark to discern a face clearly, much less the clothes. Ferny's vision was not enhanced in the dark.
2. All the hobbits would look much the same to a Man. Remember: 'A stout little fellow with red cheeks,' said Mr. Butterbur solemnly. Pippin chuckled, but Sam looked indignant. 'That won't help you much; it goes for most hobbits.':D

Whomever the Ringwraith was talking to on the other side of the hedge might be inconsequential. It could be another Nazgûl casting a “come hither” spell, compelling Merry to approach them.
A “follow me” spell was probably used on Merry by the Inn. At this time the nazgul still had no news at all, and to get one of the Prancing Pony hobbits for questioning seemed a good idea. Then, when the nazgul saw Ferny and learned the news, Merry lost all his appeal and was discarded. The nazgul now had urgent things to do.


They didn’t hit him over the head, by the way: he fainted from fear projected by the Nazgul, which Aragorn identified as Black Breath.
I said he fainted, never said he was hit, did I?.

The text of the working notes says that there were two Ringwraiths in Bree. It says so twice. It says Frick and Frack were “foiled in their attempt to capture Merry”, made “plans for attack on the Inn at night”, and ”The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn” Tolkien used letters to designate each Nazgûl, so he knew which one was where doing what and when. There were three nazgul in Bree in the evening, then one departed for Andrath, leaving two. Easy math.;) I believe at the time of Merry's incident all three were still around.

The Nazgûl hadn’t “just learned” about Merry and his friends, but it was certainly recent, and I agree they had found out about Frodo’s unfortunate “accident” only an hour or so before Merry reached the hedge.
Why "an hour or so" before? Why not when Merry was there?
Merry spent about 2 hours before following the nazgul. Your interpretation means that the 3 hobbits (Frodo, Pippin, Sam) spent less than an hour in the common room. Yet the account of their doings in the common room is long: introductions, questions, Frodo's tale about a book he was planning to write, the info the other hobbits provided for that book, Frodo listening to talk of Men and Dwarves and grim predictions of the Southerner, Pippin's tales about the Shire, Frodo's acquaintance with Strider, Frodo's song and disappearance... All this should have taken more than an hour.

Once Merry escaped, he was sure to tell Frodo what had happened, and he was almost sure to recognize a Black Rider, even if he didn’t know its true nature. That rips a hole in the theory that they didn’t want to tip off the hobbits in the Inn; but it also means the whole town wouldn’t be up in arms because they suspected invaders were inside the gates. That would have led to confusion, and the Ringbearer could escape more easily during any town-wide confusion.
Suppose that the nazgul indeed knew that Merry was one of the four Shire-Hobbits (not that I believe it). Well, what happens if he disappears? Most likely his friends would send men to look for him (Pony staff, maybe also some customers from the Inn, maybe the Ranger who was there). Bill's house would be suspicious, as Ferny had bad reputation. Likely it would be searched.
Anyway, the Shire hobbits would be unlikely to go to bed and sleep peacefully in their rooms before Merry is found. It was exactly what the nazgul wished to avoid. As it was, Merry told some vague tale, after which the hobbits went to bed, bolting the door, and but for Strider they would have slept in the rooms assigned to them.

Their whole problem had been finding the Ringbearer to capture him, and now that they had found him, they needed to keep him found long enough to capture him. Leaving Merry was preferable to having a mess, with the added benefit that the four of them were almost certainly going to hole up in the hobbit guest-rooms overnight, which Ferny could identify for them.
And that is why they were so frustrated that they tore the place apart: their beautiful plan didn’t work, and the <Black Speech expletive deleted> Ringbearer eluded them yet again! Of course, they didn’t suspect that lousy Ranger of anything… after all, he was “just a Ranger.” Exactly.

[Alcuin]

They were at Ferny’s house. Harry the Gatekeeper had seen all four hobbits, even though Ferny had not, and he had no doubt given the conspirators in the spy-ring a description of all four. In addition, Ferny and Harry had to recognize all the local inhabitants, and Merry was plainly not a Bree hobbit; indeed, Harry remarked that the Shire-hobbits and Bree-hobbits spoke with different accents. (Frodo noticed that Aragorn began speaking to him with a Bree accent, but as he relaxed his accent changed, probably to that of Rivendell or his Dúnedain kinsmen.)

Upon reflection, I think we have to agree that Merry was not mistaken for “just any old Bree hobbit.” And since hobbits are famously stay-at-home bodies, a strange hobbit at the last house – Ferny’s house –can only mean that one of the visitors of interest has wandered into the bad part of town.

Gordis suggested that the Ringwraiths might have dropped him because keeping him would interfere with their “quiet visit” to the Inn. I think it is probably because Nob was too far away for them to silence before he raised an alarm. Keeping Merry risked creating confusion enough for the Ringbearer to escape. It isn’t as if Merry or Frodo were going to tell the local authorities they were being chased by scary guys dressed in black all the way from the Shire: they were trying to be secretive, too. That meant that all the Nazgûl had to do was be certain that they knew when the Ringbearer left and where he went: just keep him in sight until
he left town and could be nabbed in the wild, or
the other seven could join them and they could arrange a proper attack in numbers sufficient to keep their quarry from escaping.

-|-

Separate question:

Bill Ferny’s house is the last in the east end of Bree along the Road. It is clearly the “bad part of town.” Is this a reference, perhaps even an unconscious one, to the East End of London? (No offence intended to any real East-enders here, please!)

-|-

Added in an edit: this post cross-posted with Gordis's last post and is not intended as a response to that. Carry on, and I'll respond as I am able to obtain time to prepare an answer.

[Gordis]

Separate question:

Bill Ferny’s house is the last in the east end of Bree along the Road. It is clearly the “bad part of town.” Is this a reference, perhaps even an unconscious one, to the East End of London? (No offence intended to any real East-enders here, please!)

All things East are bad in ME. :D London is just a coincidence.

[Attalus]

The one problem remaining, for me, anyway, is how th ghostly Nazgul, who wore robes "to conceal their nothingness," could drag an unconscious Hobbit anywhere. I can testify that dragging an unconscious anything is very, very hard, and Merry must have weighed at leas 70 lb.

[Gordis]

The one problem remaining, for me, anyway, is how th ghostly Nazgul, who wore robes "to conceal their nothingness," could drag an unconscious Hobbit anywhere. I can testify that dragging an unconscious anything is very, very hard, and Merry must have weighed at leas 70 lb.

Oh, but nazgul were not bodiless ghosts. Robes only concealed their invisibility when dealing with mortals.
They had invisible but material bodies and weighted, I guess, exactly the same as living men of the same size and build. Remember the footprints they left in the dell by Weathertop?
They could wield swords, knock down doors, ride horses and beasts etc quite fine, even when unclad.

[Alcuin]

(Okay, a response.)

I think Chris had no right to edit the text anyway.Copyright, and editorial discretion. In Treason of Isengard, he says that his father wanted the reference to Harry in the Pony removed, but it was not. RC has a little more detail. (Very little.) Personally, I don’t see it as significant. I put the comment in there to alert ’Mooters who might be unaware of it; it is not otherwise germane to the discussion at hand.


Why do you think the nazgul were waiting in Ferny's house while he was drinking in the Pony? Why then, if they had already learnt Bill's news, was one nazgul hanging outside the Inn? He’s looking for the Ringbearer. Should he watch the mayor’s house instead?


I believe the three nazgul remained outside of Bree, not at Bill's. It would be much safer and less conspicuous. Then I don't believe that Bill had a stable large enough to stable three big black horses - and all that without neighbors noticing a thing. Note Bill's buddy the Southerner stayed at the Inn, his horse in the Pony's stable.

At nightfall, one nazgul slipped into Bree, using Harry Goatleaf's gate, and went to investigate. He saw the Inn was getting empty (no noise anymore from the common room) and continued through Bree to Ferny's house.
Only then did he learn the news, and Merry witnessed it. The third nazgul yet had to be found and dispatched to Andrath.

Okay. What’s the textual evidence for that? The textual evidence from the Marquette notes on the Ringwraiths (“Hunt for the Ring”) clearly says twice that two Ringwraiths fail to capture Merry, and then the (same two) Ringwraiths invade the Inn and fail to find any hobbits.

Where is your third Nazgûl at this point? Sneaking a swig from back of the beer-barrel? The Ringwraiths probably learned that four Shire-hobbits had passed through the West-gate soon after the event: in the draft in which Harry the Gatekeeper first appears, as soon as the hobbits pass, Harry tells a character named Ned to watch the gate and leaves. I think we have to assume he went to tell his new friends with the hiss that they were right: four hobbits did arrive. I also think that makes it a very safe bet that Harry cooperated by letting the Ringwraiths know that what they were looking for was in town.


Also I don't believe Merry overheard two nazgul talking between themselves. It just doesn't ring true. The nazgul either would have used Osanwe(most likely), or they would have spoken in the Black Tongue between themselves.
Yet Merry didn't describe the sounds they produced as repulsive or incomprehensible, he was simply said to be too far away to make out the words. I am pretty sure one of the guys by the hedge was a mortal, most likely Bill.

I think the Nazgûl was probably talking to Ferny, too. In fact, if it were not for the notes in the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS, I would suggest that the people picking up Merry were Ferny and the Nazgûl. But I don’t think it really matter who was on the other side of the hedge, or who the other lifting partner was, either. I started this separate thread because I was troubled by why they dropped Merry, clearly a valuable prisoner who could help them in their quest to capture the Ring. I’m satisfied that I have a reasonable answer to that now.

Let’s please discuss Nazgûl and ósanwe-kenta in another thread. But you know me: I like to have as much text to build a case as possible.


I agree, but immediately after he had learned the news - and that would be after Merry's incident, IMO.

Merry spent about 2 hours before following the nazgul; I believe the 3 hobbits also spent about 2 hours in the common room. Ferny barely had time to return home when the nazgul paid him a visit.

Harry did it. (He had to: the butler was on vacation.) Harry told them about the Shire-hobbits. The third Nazgûl left immediately for an appointment with the Dúnedain who waylaid him. (And he rode because he missed the 5:15 to Paddington via Andrath.)


it was dark: too dark to discern a face clearly, much less the clothes. Ferny's vision was not enhanced in the dark.

That probably doesn’t matter. Once Merry was overcome by Black Breath and lying on the ground, Ferny could likely have opened his mouth and examined his teeth if that’s what he needed to do to identify him.




They didn’t hit him over the head, by the way: he fainted from fear projected by the Nazgul, which Aragorn identified as Black Breath.
I said he fainted, never said he was hit, did I?.
No. And I didn’t say you had. In fact, I wasn’t thinking about anything you’d said when I wrote it. Just a little confusion in the thread.


…at the time of Merry's incident all three [Nazgûl] were still around.

That’s not what the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS says.


Your interpretation means that the 3 hobbits … spent less than an hour in the common room. … All this should have taken more than an hour.

You’re right. I think the three Nazgûl learned quickly that there were four Shire-hobbits in Bree at the Pony. One left immediately to tell the Witch-king. One set out to reconnoiter, and the other probably set to watch the east end of town: the Ring-bearer was plainly headed to Rivendell, and that meant he had to leave by the South-gate. (Aside to ’Mooters who don’t already know or have been confused for years: The gate on the east side of Bree was called the “South-gate” because the Great East Road ran south at that point. Ferny’s house was the last before the gate.)


Suppose that the nazgul indeed knew that Merry was one of the four Shire-Hobbits (not that I believe it). Well, what happens if he disappears? Most likely his friends would send men to look for him (Pony staff, maybe also some customers from the Inn, maybe the Ranger who was there). Bill's house would be suspicious, as Ferny had bad reputation. Likely it would be searched.
Anyway, the Shire hobbits would be unlikely to go to bed and sleep peacefully in their rooms before Merry is found. It was exactly what the nazgul wished to avoid. As it was, Merry told some vague tale, after which the hobbits went to bed, bolting the door, and but for Strider they would have slept in the rooms assigned to them.

I agree. That may be the error that bothers me: why pick him up at all? If they don’t do that, they don’t have to put him down again, do they?

Imagine this from the point of view of the Nazgûl Merry followed. We’ll call him “Frick”.
(Outside the Pony and down the Road to Ferny’s) C’mere little hobbit, c’mere, c’mere. Come on…
(To Ferny, who’s mumbling through the hedge) Is that one of them? What do you mean you don’t know? Wait a minute…
(Merry faints from Black Breath. Ferny gets a good look at him, and maybe Harry does, too.)
What to do? Let’s take him and find out what he knows. Yeah, the Ringbearer will stay up all night, but what about it? He’ll be happy to see us tonight: we’re his friends! Really! You can trust us!
(Nob yells. He’s a good 20 yards away, maybe much more.) Oh, #@$! Drop him!
(To Ferny and maybe Harry) Okay, no harm done. He’s not the one we really want, just one of his friends. They’re not going anywhere tonight without us knowing about it. Now, do you know what room these guys are in tonight? You do? GREAT!! Hey, Frack!
Quiet, you clumsy Oliphant! You’ll wake the whole house! Ah, here we are… now, which of these is… (removes covers). Ach! (Quiet but long, intense discussion in Black Speech. Good bolsters ripped to tiny pieces.)
Okay, let’s go in the stables and scare off the horses and ponies. At least we’ll slow them down tomorrow, and the Witch-king and the other two can get here. There’s nobody on the Road all the way to Weathertop. Hey! Horses! BOO!!!


The one problem remaining, for me, anyway, is how th ghostly Nazgul, who wore robes "to conceal their nothingness," could drag an unconscious Hobbit anywhere...
Oh, but nazgul were not bodiless ghosts. Robes only concealed their invisibility when dealing with mortals...FWIW, I concur.

[Attalus]

FWIW, I concur.I do, too, but I'm not happy about it.

[Gordis]

Okay. What’s the textual evidence for that? The textual evidence from the Marquette notes on the Ringwraiths (“Hunt for the Ring”) clearly says twice that two Ringwraiths fail to capture Merry, and then the (same two) Ringwraiths invade the Inn and fail to find any hobbits.
Here is the quote RC p.166:
In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that the three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road
reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king].... [He] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day.... [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night..
So there were three nazgul who came from the East this very evening. They came through the gate closest to Ferny's. (But the horses, I believe, remained outside and likely one nazgul was guarding them). The mortal who told them the news was the Southerner, not Ferny. And it was the news of the events in the inn (Frodo disappearance that allowed to guess the presence of the ring) that the third nazgul hurried to carry to the WK, not simply the news of the four hobbits entering Bree.

I don't see the contradiction in the last quoted sentence. The two nazgul make plans for attack on the inn, the third gone by that time. It really doesn't imply that the third had been already gone during the attempt to capture Merry. But likely he was outside with the horses.


Harry did it. (He had to: the butler was on vacation.) Harry told them about the Shire-hobbits. The third Nazgûl left immediately for an appointment with the Dúnedain who waylaid him. (And he rode because he missed the 5:15 to Paddington via Andrath.)
I think the three Nazgûl learned quickly that there were four Shire-hobbits in Bree at the Pony. One left immediately to tell the Witch-king. Nope - the quote tells us otherwise. He left after Frodo's Ring-trick. Maybe, btw, the three nazgul came to Bree much later than the hobbits and Merry spotted the nazgul during his first reconnaissance of Bree.

One set out to reconnoiter, and the other probably set to watch the east end of town: the Ring-bearer was plainly headed to Rivendell, and that meant he had to leave by the South-gate. I agree: one to reconnoiter, one by Bill's house, one outside the South Gate with horses.

I agree. That may be the error that bothers me: why pick him up at all? If they don’t do that, they don’t have to put him down again, do they? At the time the nazgul met Merry he has not yet heard about the Ring in the Pony, so he was eager for news. He lost interest in Merry once he got to Bill's hedge and spoke with the Southerner. But as the Hobbit was already lured,and had probably overheard something, they decided to dispose of him. But Nob came...

Okay, let’s go in the stables and scare off the horses and ponies. At least we’ll slow them down tomorrow, and the Witch-king and the other two can get here. There’s nobody on the Road all the way to Weathertop. Hey! Horses! BOO!!!
Nope: they had to sent Bill and Harry to quietly lead the horses and ponies out of Bree. Harry had to open the Gate. Had the nazgul said BOO in the stables, the horses would have stampeded all over the town.

[Alcuin]

Here is the quote RC p.166:

In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that the three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road
reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king].... [He] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day.... [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night..

So there were three nazgul who came from the East this very evening. They came through the gate closest to Ferny's. (But the horses, I believe, remained outside and likely one nazgul was guarding them). The mortal who told them the news was the Southerner, not Ferny. And that was the news of the events of the inn (Frodo disappearance that allowed to guess the presence of the ring) that the third nazgul hurried to carry to the WK, not simply the news of the four hobbits entering Bree.

I don't see the contradiction in the last quoted sentence. The two nazgul make plans for attack on the inn, the third gone by that time. It really doesn't imply that the third had been already gone during the attempt to capture Merry. But likely he was outside with the horses.

I can’t imagine that the Nazgûl would wait to get a message to the Witch-king. As soon as they knew, the messenger had to leave. Anything else was a waste of time, and possibly quite dangerous: even doing all the right things – and frankly, I think their actions show considerable competence – the Dúnedain along the Greenway prevented the message from getting through in a timely fashion. He didn’t hang around to guard the horses: he got on his and left as soon as he knew the Ringbearer had been located.

Otherwise, I won’t disagree.

(I’ll comment again on my perception of their competence toward the end of this post. That should prove a more convenient place for anyone to tear into me about my opinion.)


the three nazgul came to Bree much later than the hobbits and Merry spotted the nazgul during his first reconnaissance of Bree.

No, the Nazgûl beat the hobbits to Bree. FotR, “Prancing Pony”:

It was dark, and white stars were shining, when Frodo and his companions came at last to the Greenway-crossing and drew near the village. They came to the West-gate and found it shut…



At the time the nazgul met Merry he has not yet heard about the Ring in the Pony, so he was eager for news. He lost interest in Merry once he got to Bill's hedge and spoke with the Southerner.

Bill Ferny and the Isengarder (a Dunlending, perhaps with a dollop of orc-blood in him) left together right after Frodo reappeared following his “accident”. All the old editions before 2004 say that’s when Harry left, too. So either the Nazgûl already know about Frodo’s escapade, or the person on the other side of the hedge is the second Nazgûl.


they had to sent Bill and Harry to quietly lead the horses and ponies out of Bree. Harry had to open the Gate. Had the nazgul said BOO in the stables, the horses would have stampeded all over the town.

Fair enough. Good observation.

(Gordis, you might check my quotes of your post: I did not use the edited version, but grabbed the unedited one. If I missed anything you changed or corrected, let me know, and I'll go back, too.)

I’m going to post this, and then address the competence of the Nazgûl. I hope that doesn’t create a problem for anyone.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Gordis:
the three nazgul came to Bree much later than the hobbits and Merry spotted the nazgul during his first reconnaissance of Bree.
Originally Posted by Alcuin:
No, the Nazgûl beat the hobbits to Bree. FotR, “Prancing Pony”:
Quote: "It was dark, and white stars were shining, when Frodo and his companions came at last to the Greenway-crossing and drew near the village. They came to the West-gate and found it shut…"

Could you explain how the quote you provide shows that the Nazgul beat the hobbits to Bree? I'm not following.

[Gordis]

Could you explain how the quote you provide shows that the Nazgul beat the hobbits to Bree? I'm not following.

My question also. Alcuin, the nazgul came from Weathertop, not to the West gate by to the South Gate - likely found it closed and climbed over. That's why "there was no horse", as Merry noticed.

[Gordis]

I can’t imagine that the Nazgûl would wait to get a message to the Witch-king. As soon as they knew, the messenger had to leave. Anything else was a waste of time, and possibly quite dangerous: even doing all the right things – and frankly, I think their actions show considerable competence – the Dúnedain along the Greenway prevented the message from getting through in a timely fashion. He didn’t hang around to guard the horses: he got on his and left as soon as he knew the Ringbearer had been located.
I didn't say the Nazgul waited.As soon as they knew about Frodo's trick with the Ring, the messenger left. I am only trying to prove that they came late and learned the news while Merry was eavesdropping. The timing of the events in the common room versus Merry's movements points to that.
The nazgul was in a hurry to fetch his fellows outside the South gate, tell them the news and send a messenger to the WK. Merry became a nuisance instead of being a valuable prisoner.


Bill Ferny and the Isengarder (a Dunlending, perhaps with a dollop of orc-blood in him) left together right after Frodo reappeared following his “accident”. All the old editions before 2004 say that’s when Harry left, too. So either the Nazgûl already know about Frodo’s escapade, or the person on the other side of the hedge is the second Nazgûl.
Sorry, didn't get it either... :confused: I must be tired and getting dumb.

[Alcuin]

I think the three Nazgûl at Bree when Frodo and his friends arrived proceeded in a competent, workmanlike manner to address the situation they faced.

(This post has rather evolved from what I intended. We can continue to argue about the competence of the Nazgûl, if anyone wants.)

Frodo was going to Rivendell. We know they had figured that from the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS. The Nazgûl were divided into two teams, one in the Shire (Khamûl and others) to root out the Ringbearer, and a second team sent to reconnoiter the East Road from Weathertop to the Shire. The Witch-king kept a central location to coordinate and direct the activity.

Here is an aside, an observation you might find interesting but possibly inaccurate. I think we can infer that since Khamûl was in the Shire, they either believed the Ringbearer was still there; or else Khamûl directed that activity because he was already there, and it was the only thing to do. However, the implication of that observation is that the three Nazgûl riding back from Weathertop did not expect to find the Ringbearer.

The Nazgûl arrived before Frodo and his friends. It was dusk when they arrived; it was dark when Frodo arrived. I found a website that allows us to compute the length of twilight for any city on any day (http://www.cmpsolv.com/los/sunsetexp.html). For London, England, on September 29 (for this year),

Sunset: 17:43
Civil Twilight End: 18:16
Naut Twilight End: 18:55
Astro Twilight End: 19:34


“Dusk” is the end of civil twilight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight). The Nazgûl arrived around 6:15 PM. Frodo and his friends arrived at 7 o’clock or later, because it was dark and they could clearly see the stars. The Nazgûl could have arrived anywhere from just over a half-hour to nearly two hours before the hobbits, and they were in Bree first. They have time to get into town and conceal themselves. I suspect they were either at Ferny’s house, which was strategically located next to the South-gate, or just outside the South-gate. I think at least one was probably in town, because that meant there was no reason anyone to continually pass back and forth through the gate. It was Thursday 29 September, and Aragorn saw them visit Harry on Monday, three days before. (Here’s a Shire-calendar (http://shire-reckoning.com/calendar.html).)

I think that well before Ferny and his friend the Isengarder returned from dinner and a show, the Ringwraiths knew there were four Shire-hobbits in town. That may be one reason why Tolkien wanted Harry the Gatekeeper removed from the Prancing Pony scene. (The note he left seems to indicate he thought Harry contributed to clutter. Harry certainly contributed to lots of discussion about when he’d entered the Inn before the publication of Treason of Isengard, so it’s well to bear in mind that we’re dealing with fiction, even very well-constructed fiction.) In any case, the Nazgûl would have gone to visit him.

Here is a rough guide to the order and timing of events. I offer it not as a hard and fast list, but something we can use together to work out the times.

6:15 PM End of dusk. Nazgûl arrive in Bree
7:00 PM Hobbits arrive. Aragorn climbs over gate behind them
7:15 PM Butterbur takes them to sitting room
7:45 PM Frodo, Sam, and Pippin go to Commons room
8:45 PM Pippin gets "warm" and talks too much. Merry goes for walk
9:15 PM Frodo has "accident". Merry returns, sees Ringwraith outside Inn. Ferny leaves Inn.
9:30 PM Aragorn meets Hobbits in sitting room. Merry reaches Ferny's house. Ferny must be nearby.
9:45 PM Butterbur shows up with Gandalf's letter. Nob sees people lifting Merry.
10:00 PM Merry bursts into the room with Nob
10:15 PM Strider and Nob fix the hobbits' beds to look occupied. He barricades them in the sitting room


Personally, I think Strider did not return to barricade the door until about 11, but we can work that out as the thread continues, I hope.

I think it is reasonable to believe that the Nazgûl knew about the four Shire-hobbits before 7:45. If this rough guide is correct, and Merry found the Nazgûl across the road (street) from the Inn about the same time Frodo had his accident, then the Nazgûl might account for what Frodo sensed:

For a moment he wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room.

Not in the room, but across the street. In which case Merry might indeed have been lured down the street, etc. If it is true that Merry saw the Nazgûl at the same time as the “accident,” there should be note in Tolkien’s work, and someone should be able to find it. We should look again at the published material to see if there is any hint of it.

So far, so good for the Nazgûl. Frodo has revealed himself as the Ringbearer.

When did the third Nazgûl leave for Andrath? I argue he left before 8 o’clock, as soon as the Ringwraiths knew they probably had their quarry.

Here are some obvious questions to ask about the rough time-line.

When did Merry return to the Inn in relation to Frodo’s accident?
How long does it take to read and act out Aragorn’s initial meeting Sam and Pippin in the sitting room? (Anybody game for reading and acting it out? We need a longest and shortest time.)
How long did it take the hobbits to read and digest Gandalf’s letter. (Again, we need a longest and shortest time.)

Working backward reveals why these particular lengths of time are important. Merry bursts into the room just as the hobbits finish mulling over Gandalf’s letter. The times it takes the hobbits to interact with Aragorn in the sitting room, plus maybe 5 to 15 minutes, is the time that passes after Frodo’s accident. If Merry came upon the Nazgûl manipulating the Ring so that it revealed the Ringbearer, or just afterwards, then he followed the Nazgûl to Ferny’s house in the same time.

Nob also has to leave the Inn and walk to the South-gate, and Ferny has to get home. Merry doesn’t mention meeting anybody on the street, so he doesn’t seem to have seen Ferny or the Isengarder. Did they leave before he arrived back at the Inn after his first walk to find the Black Rider across the street?

An alternate explanation for why the Ringwraith was outside the Inn could be that the Ring had already revealed its Bearer, and the Ringwraith was “feeling” for it across the street.

Here I’ll stop here and let others comment.



-|-

Added later

This table of the rough Bree time-line may be a little easier to read. The table is an image (embedding HTML code into the vbCode that runs the posts is a security hazard), but if you click on this image, you can get to the webpage behind it, if you want. Hope this is helpful.

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents.gif (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents.htm)

Now, can we all work out the problems in this time-line together?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm appearing more and more dense with every post, I'm afraid, but where is it said that the Nazgul arrived at dusk again? Was it in the text or in Tolkien's working notes posted earlier in the thread? I apologize for not going back and re-reading the thread to find it. Thanks.

[Galin]

Edit.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the new table, Alcuin!

[Alcuin]

I'm appearing more and more dense with every post, I'm afraid, but where is it said that the Nazgul arrived at dusk again? Was it in the text or in Tolkien's working notes posted earlier in the thread? I apologize for not going back and re-reading the thread to find it. Thanks.It’s in the working notes. We never see the movements of the Nazgûl except as the hobbits meet them: they are always off-stage until Frodo and his friends see them, so that we readers experience them along with the protagonists. However, CJR Tolkien and the other scholars examining Tolkien’s notes all say that they have no doubt that JRR Tolkien’s “Hunt for the Ring” MSS at Marquette is what he was using to orchestrate the offstage movements and motivations of the villains. I believe the time of their arrival in Bree is correct, and that we should use it until we find or develop better evidence.

As for when Harry the Gatekeeper left the Inn, and whether CJRT was correct in having him removed from the Inn and thus from the text, my only observation is that I am old enough to recall the days when my friends and I discussed when he had entered, making various guesses and theories none of which in the end hold any water. While I see no harm in removing Harry from the scene in the Inn, I see no harm in leaving him, either. Harry is in fact an unnecessary character in the Prancing Pony, but he does contribute as the gatekeeper, demonstrating that the Nazgûl have already been to Bree and suborned some of the locals to help them. Bill Ferny was almost certainly Saruman’s agent in Bree before the arrival of the Black Riders, and the Isengarder was Saruman’s courier: both turned coats for the Nazgûl.

In addition, we should note that the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS reveals another important off-stage activity. Aragorn has been hanging around Bree for days, too: we know that from his comments to Frodo about the Black Riders visiting Harry three days before. He had evidently made the same calculation as the Nazgûl about Frodo’s movements, but with the added information he received from Gildor about their meeting in the Woody End, so instead of being south or east of Bree, Aragorn is watching the Road west of town, and fortuitously sees the hobbits ride out of the Barrow Downs with Bombadil. But he has also discovered the Lord of the Nazgûl’s bivouac in Andrath, and anticipating that Black Riders will use the Greenway, he has ordered Rangers to ambuscade the route. When one of the Ringwraiths sets out for Andrath to tell his leader that the Ringbearer has finally been located again, he is unable to deliver the message in a timely fashion because he is ambushed. This sets the stage for the Witch-king’s wild night-ride through Bree, and it helps explain why Frodo and his companions were not hunted immediately, so that Aragorn was able to lose the pursuit north of the Road. Aragorn knew considerably more about the movements and whereabouts of the Nazgûl than the hobbits – or we the readers – initially guessed, and he took measures to set them off-balance and disturb their plans.

An updated version of the time-line. Click on it to copy and paste from an underlying webpage. I would really like to work out the best times with everyone.
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents2.gif (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents.htm)

[Gordis]

I'm appearing more and more dense with every post, I'm afraid, but where is it said that the Nazgul arrived at dusk again? Was it in the text or in Tolkien's working notes posted earlier in the thread? I apologize for not going back and re-reading the thread to find it. Thanks.

Don't worry, DPR I am denser than you are.;) I have posted this quote myself, but overlooked the word "dusk". Alcuin caught the word straight away:

RC p.166:
In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that the three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road
reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king].... [He] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day.... [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night..

Alcuin - wow, I like this timeline. Not that I am not going to nitpick.;), of course... Give me some time.

[Alcuin]

Friends, the timing of events in the chapters “Sign of the Prancing Pony” and “Strider” is very important. If the time-line I’ve laid out is basically correct, and our interpretation of where Merry first saw the Black Rider in Bree is correct, then

Merry saw a Black Rider standing in the Road across from the Prancing Pony at the same time Frodo found the Ring had somehow slipped onto his finger.

I think the Nazgûl was in communication with the One Ring, and that is how the “accident” happened.

Remember, Tolkien wrote that Frodo

wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room.

If what Merry saw was a Nazgûl arousing the One Ring to action, then that Ringwraith was the source of the “wish or command that was felt in the room.”

When I described this to my son, he said it sounded like the Ringwraith was ping (http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/ping.html)ing the One Ring.

ringwraith>ping onering

Pinging 9.7.3.1 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 9.7.3.1: bytes=32 time=2ms TTL=64
Reply from 9.7.3.1: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 9.7.3.1: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 9.7.3.1: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=64

Ping statistics for 9.7.3.1:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 1ms, Maximum = 2ms, Average = 1ms

ringwraith>

[Attalus]

I will take 'competence,' here, to mean "the quality of being competent; adequacy; possession of required skill, knowledge, qualification, or capacity". I the Ringwraiths had been competent to take the Ring from Frodo, they would have done so. If it is argued that they were competent, then one must observe that they made a frightful hash of it, presumable because all their initiative had been drained form them "had no will left in the matter," as said under another connection.

[Galin]

edit.

[Coffeehouse]

I will take 'competence,' here, to mean "the quality of being competent; adequacy; possession of required skill, knowledge, qualification, or capacity". I the Ringwraiths had been competent to take the Ring from Frodo, they would have done so. If it is argued that they were competent, then one must observe that they made a frightful hash of it, presumable because all their initiative had been drained form them "had no will left in the matter," as said under another connection.

A simple, but intelligent observation Attalus!

[Gordis]

I the Ringwraiths had been competent to take the Ring from Frodo, they would have done so.

Not necessarily. One can be very competent, but still unlucky.

[Gordis]

Friends, the timing of events in the chapters “Sign of the Prancing Pony” and “Strider” is very important. If the time-line I’ve laid out is basically correct, and our interpretation of where Merry first saw the Black Rider in Bree is correct, then

Merry saw a Black Rider standing in the Road across from the Prancing Pony at the same time Frodo found the Ring had somehow slipped onto his finger.

I think the Nazgûl was in communication with the One Ring, and that is how the “accident” happened.

Remember, Tolkien wrote that Frodo

If what Merry saw was a Nazgûl arousing the One Ring to action, then that Ringwraith was the source of the “wish or command that was felt in the room.”

(When I described this to my son, he said it sounded like the Ringwraith was ping (http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/ping.html)ing the One Ring.)

Agree to that!:)

[Gordis]

Alcuin, Attalus and others, as for the discussion on nazgul competence (overall in the Hunt) I propose to open a separate thread for it later. I have managed to compare the preliminary scheme depicting the movements of individual riders found in the HOME 7, p.13 with the account in RC. They differ little, only the RC account is more complete. Now the account in RC has the letters denoting individual riders (A-I) re-inserted, with a bit of uncertainty only in 2-3 cases. I will prepare a table as nice as Alcuin's and post it. Then we can discuss their movements in the Hunt.

What is pertinent to this thread are the movements of our two Bree nazgul: they are H and I. These two guys (HI) constantly stick together, much like D [Khamul] sticks with E [his messenger from Dol Guldur]. It seems the eight lesser nazgul were used to working in pairs: BC, DE, FG, HI.

So, our pair HI at first was among the 5 nazgul in the Shire (DEGHI), led by Khamûl D. "[One H] takes road leading northwest to Michel Delving, and [another I] goes with him, but there ?fares on and traverses the North Farthing.
Khamûl D, alarmed at the escape of the Ring over the river on the night of 25 September, summoned the other four Riders who had entered the Shire: EGHI. They assemble at the Bridge in the early morning of 26th, probably). [Khamûl D] leaves one ( G) to lurk near the Bridge and watch it; he sends [two HI] along the East Road, with orders to report to [the Witch-king] the eastward movement of the Ring ; he himself with [his companion E] passes secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land.
[The two sent east HI] pass along the East Road, and visit Bree and 'The Prancing Pony'
Strider: 'Black horsemen have passed through Bree. On Monday one came down the Greenway, they say; and another appeared later, coming up the Greenway from the south.' […]They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'-LOTR
Butterbur: 'These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for Baggins, and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I hear." -LOTR
They (HI) then go in search of [the Witch-king A] but cannot at once find him . He is elated to learn that the Ring was really in the Shire, but is alarmed and angry at its escape;[…] [The Witch-king] now sends out [three Riders FHI] separately, with orders to reassemble just east of Weathertop, and then return towards Bree along or near the Road. The three Black Riders FHI reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One F is sent to the Witch-king.... [He F] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach the Witch-king until the next day.... [The other two HI] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night.. .. The Inn attacked by the two Riders HI in early hours before dawn. Crickhollow attacked at about the same time.... Both attacks fail. [The two Riders in Bree HI] go off in haste to find [the Witch-king] to report that Bearer has gone (without waiting for further news). [The three from Crickhollow DEG] ride down the Buckland Gate and make also for Andrath. The Nazgûl are thus all ABCDEFGHI assembled at Andrath. [The Witch-king] sends four Riders FGHI across country from Andrath to Weathertop. (again!):eek:

So, before the arrival at Bree, our dears HI were travelling a lot: first in the Shire, then were sent to check Bree (Monday 26) and report to the Captain who was supposed to be at Andrath, but was inside the Barrows. They were looking for him all day Tuesday 27, wet and miserable (it was Goldberry's washing day!), then found him late in the evening and were sent cross-country to Weathertop (130 miles), then immediately returned to Bree (100 miles).

Pour guys - and POOR horses. Keep this in mind, they had horses, not motorbikes, and the horses had to be fed and watered and rested.

That's why I don't believe that ALL three nazgul entered Bree to spy. One did, yes, but two were most likely busy with tending to horses, either by Ferny's hut or outside the South gate.


Now to your time-scheme, Alcuin, and to my nitpicks.

I think you definitely should make another column for Ferny and Southerner and Harry

Alcuin, I still don't agree with "sometime during this period the third nazgul leaves to tell the WK they've found the Ringbearer."
1. I don't believe F left before his horse was fed and rested.
2. It is implied in the famous "dusk" quote" in RC that this nazgul carried the news about Frodo's ring-trick in the Pony, not the news of the four hobbits in Bree.
3. Finally, I believe the nazgul called on Harry Goatleaf [U]before the hobbits arrived, so, he couldn't hear any news

I think it was like that. The three nazgul arrive at dusk (6.15) via the South Gate. They call on Ferny, and hear his report: NOTHING. They are not much surprised, as they hope the Ring is still in Buckland, if not already captured by Khamul. They send Ferny to the Pony to gather more news (I believe the common room merriment starts normally around 6.30- 7 pm).

Two of the nazgul remain in Ferny's yard tending to the three horses, using Ferny's well to water them and his supply of grain (poor starving Bill the Pony!;)) to feed them. Meanwhile with gathering darkness one nazgul carefully sneaks on foot through the village towards the West Gate, arriving there at about 6.45 and speaks with Harry Goatleaf. [along the lines of HOME 7 p. 41] Still nothing, says Harry: no hobbits of the Shire. The nazgul goes back to Bill's house.

In ten-fifteen minutes or so the hobbits arrive (7.00 or a tad later). Harry leaves the Gate, right after letting them in and goes to the Pony to report to the Southerner (again like in HOME 7 p. 41). The latter must have been in charge of the human spies at Bree.

Maybe a ruffian is sent from the Pony to Bill's house to tell the nazgul that four Shire hobbits are in the Pony.

The Ringwraith returns and watches the Inn, maybe induces the Ring's misbehavior, as Alcuin says. Maybe the ring senses him and misbehaves, without the nazgul's knowledge. After all, these H and I are not among the strongest in Ring-detection.

Then we differ with Alcuin. Merry is not yet back when the Ring-trick had occurred (9.15), IMO. The nazgul is watching the crowd of dissatisfied customers leave the Inn (9.20). He hides across the street, waiting for the crowd to disperse. The nazgul is about to quietly follow Ferny and the Dunlending, when Merry returns (9.25). Here the nazgul decides to lure him for questioning and leads him to the South Gate. When he arrives to the hedge he hears the full tale about the Ring and Frodo's disappearance from the Dunlending, gets excited and loses interest in Merry. Nob saves him.

At this point F is dispatched to the WK. (Hmm… the South Gate would be closed… maybe the horses were outside, after all. Or did they simply bully the other gatekeeper?)

Thoughts?

[Alcuin]

While I remember studying it closely, and posting on it (with you, I believe), I did not recall where the ABCDEFGHI listing of the Nazgûl movements was. Thank you.

I do not believe that the movements laid out in Treason of Isengard, “Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman” are a reliable guide to the published version of FotR. For example, Hamilcar Bolger, the predecessor of Fatty (Hamilcar was nicknamed “Ham”, so that may be the source of the nickname “Fatty”) was kidnapped by the Nazgûl, who hauled him off to Andrath with Gandalf in pursuit. Clearly the storyline subsequently underwent some serious revision.

Besides recalling where it occurred, and that it does not dovetail with the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS (it’s the predecessor of “Hunt for the Ring”) used to complete the published work, I’d like to point out something for discussion in another thread: The Witch-king was labeled A in the ToI outline, while the “Vanguard Ringwraith” was D. DEF operated in one team, and HGI in another. BC stayed with A. Is it possible that that D, the “Vanguard Ringwraith”, none other than Khamûl? Then who are B and C? The other two Dúnedain seduced into wraithdom? Why did the Witch-king keep them aside? Was there tension between the three Númenóreans and the other Nazgûl?

Hopefully, I’ve set the table for a lovely, heated argument in a completely separate thread.

-|-

Gordis, my impression is that when Merry arrived back at the Inn, the street was empty except for the Black Rider. So he’s either arrived before the Commons room has broken up following the brouhaha with Frodo’s “accident” or so long afterwards that the street has cleared. We can work through how long Strider spoke with the hobbits before and after Gandalf’s letter arrived. If we can determine how long Strider and Frodo remained in the Commons room after the “accident,” then we can determine how long it was from the time of the “accident” until the time Merry burst into the room.

As far as how long it was before the three hobbits went to the Commons room, we know that in “Prancing Pony”, they are led to a little parlor or sitting room. Nob also showed them the bedrooms, and they washed and drank some beer. Then supper was brought; at the end of their supper (about three quarters of an hour's steady going, not hindered by unnecessary talk) that Frodo, Pippin, and Sam decided to join the company.If we assume that they arrived at town about 7, took about 15 minutes to find the Inn (the sight of which troubled Sam more than anything else in his journey to that point), and then spent 15-30 minutes meeting Butterbur, cleaning up and settling in, that brings us to 7:45 – 8:00. So far, so good.


I believe the nazgul called on Harry Goatleaf before the hobbits arrived, so, he couldn't hear any news

I agree. However, I think that Harry knew whom to tell that the expected Shire-hobbits had arrived: that would be Bill Ferny.


An aside here on Bill Ferny. He lived nearest the South-gate: that made it convenient for him to go in and out. Harry on the West-gate had been suborned; we should consider whether the keeper of the South-gate had been, too. Ferny was in league with the Isengarder spy, which means that he was Saruman’s man in Bree. Aragorn told Frodo that Ferny could not be trusted (“Ferny … would sell anything to anybody”): it is quite likely the Rangers had been keeping an eye on Ferny for some time, and were aware of Saruman’s espionage. In the little essay “Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire” at the end of “The Hunt for the Ring” in UT,

Gandalf knew of [Saruman’s] visits [to the Shire], and guessed their object,

which was to study the place Gandalf found so interesting, and to obtain pipe-weed. Afterwards, Saruman used agents like the Dunlending from Isengard; but who told Gandalf about the visits? Surely it was the Dúnedain, who had been keeping watch over the Shire and the rest of what had once been Arnor.



The three nazgul arrive at dusk (6.15) via the South Gate. They call on Ferny, and hear his report: NOTHING. They are not much surprised, as they hope the Ring is still in Buckland, if not already captured by Khamul. They send Ferny to the Pony to gather more news (I believe the common room merriment starts normally around 6.30- 7 pm).

Two of the nazgul remain in Ferny's yard tending to the three horses, using Ferny's well to water them and his supply of grain (poor starving Bill the Pony!) to feed them. Meanwhile with gathering darkness one nazgul carefully sneaks on foot through the village towards the West Gate, arriving there at about 6.45 and speaks with Harry Goatleaf. [along the lines of HOME 7 p. 41] Still nothing, says Harry: no hobbits of the Shire. The nazgul goes back to Bill's house.

In ten-fifteen minutes or so the hobbits arrive (7.00 or a tad later). Harry leaves the Gate, right after letting them in and goes to the Pony to report to the Southerner (again like in HOME 7 p. 41). The latter must have been in charge of the human spies at Bree.

Maybe a ruffian is sent from the Pony to Bill's house to tell the nazgul that four Shire hobbits are in the Pony.

They speak to Ferny first, I agree. If you want to argue that their horses are outside or inside, I don’t care, but I do agree that horses outside make it easier for the messenger to leave unnoticed for Andrath. Ferny was unlikely to have his own well: the town probably had common wells scattered about, and people took water from them: only the largest houses (or extended houses like the Inn) were likely to have individual wells. I have already agreed that they contacted Harry at the West-gate next. I do not agree that the Isengarder was the “spymaster” in Bree: that was sure to be Ferny: he would have received money from Isengard and bribed others to do or tell him what he wanted. People like the courier – the Dunlending we’re calling “the Isengarder” that the Witch-king caught – brought money and returned with goods and information to Saruman. If I had to speculate on who Ferny suborned himself, I would have to say it was the gatekeeper at South-gate, so that Ferny and his allies – including the Black Riders – could come and go without interference. BTW, this means that Ferny is probably at or near the center of much of any bad business going on in Bree.

Besides that, though, I agree with you that Harry either went to Ferny’s to deliver the information that four Shire-hobbits had passed his gate, or else he sent a message. (I vote for went himself.)

The Commons room was basically the tavern – the restaurant, if you will. I expect travelers, and a few well-to-do locals, but very few, began eating around 6 o’clock. Eating would go on for a while, and then more locals would show up to share some of the local brew, swap stories, and hear whatever the travelers had to tell. It was to this second half of the evening that Frodo, Pippin, and Sam joined themselves, and where Frodo had his “accident”.

I have the hobbits marked in the Common room for an hour, because we know from Merry that they were gone about that long when they went for a walk.

So far, we have accounted for everyone in the story – good guys and bad guys – until about 8:45 PM. I’ve marked all this off with blue background. Just to be clear, by the way, the actual time might be 9 o’clock if the hobbits took a little longer to visit their rooms, clear up, and settle into the parlor before supper. But at least everyone can be accounted for at 8:45 if we have correctly estimated how long these activities take. So far, I think we can “agree upon” this times, with the caveat that it might be 15-30 minutes later or even 15 minutes earlier at the end (if Frodo and his friends went straight to the Pony as might a local or regular visitor, and Butterbur took care of them right away.)

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/breeEvents-work1.gif

Loose ends in the blue boxes are the Nazgûl who set off for Andrath to tell the Witch-king that the Ringbearer is in Bree. I have not yet specified whet that Ringwraiths were doing, but I agree with Gordis that they first visited Ferny, then Harry, and then probably returned to Ferny’s. Whether there were some in or out of town with horses, I cannot say; but if there was a Nazgûl’s horse stabled with poor Bill the Pony, he should have spent the night sweating. awake, and trying to avoid being injured by a viciously–trained beast of war.

Toward the end, I’ve marked some events, but not their times, as “agreed upon”. These are marked in pink or light red. (Actually, very pale orange according to my color palate: I’m a little color-blind, and I’m afraid I can’t tell you which colors I can’t see well, because they look like other colors to me. If you notice my calling a color incorrectly, let me know.) The times are left unmarked because we’ve failed to account for the order of the events in the middle, and how long they took.

So I’m posing this. If the marked as “agreed upon” stuff is acceptable, please say so. I plan to leave it here a while before I post another graphic so that everyone who wants can express an opinion.

-|-

There are a lot of people looking at this thread and not saying anything. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine. We would be VERY happy to hear from you!! If you’re young, or you’re timid, or you’ve never or rarely posted before, or someone has thoughtless stomped your good idea (or even some not-so-good ones), WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU, TOO. Don’t be shy: nobody knows you, and none of us will accuse of saying anything silly. <RIGHT, EVERYONE!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUk8OuF1C-A&feature=related)>

“The Sign of the Prancing Pony” and “Strider” are a pair of chapters in which we see what the hobbits see: but what the hobbits don’t see is extremely important, because this is where the Black Riders finally discover the Ring, and this is where the real Hunt for the Ring begins. From Bree to Rivendell, Frodo is never safe again, and he’s in the hands of this strange man whom he doesn’t entirely trust, Strider. Right now, we’ve begun working out what happened in Bree because it is very complex, and if you notice something, or you don’t understand something, speak up! Because what you notice or don’t understand may provide us the key to finish the puzzle.

Please participate.

Gordis, let me get through this much, and we’ll discuss the proper order of Merry, Ferny, the Black Rider and their walk from the Inn to the South-gate. I want to get all my ducks in a row before I do. Most of all, I want to see if anyone else has noticed anything, and let them comment: there are a lot of eyes, and for this, I think we need to get as much input as possible. (So the rest of you do your best, and let us know what you think!)

Gordis, Attalus, CAB, Coffeehouse, Galin, Valandil, Olmer , and anybody I’ve left out, if you think the “agreed upon” stuff at the beginning or end of the timeline is out of whack, let me know that before we proceed, if you can.

(Added afterwards: Sorry, The Dread Pirate Roberts, I left you out of the list. Apologies...)

[Alcuin]

Here, I’ve already found an error. I left the hobbits’ dinner out of the rough time-line. That pushes everything back one-half hour. (Now Aragorn barricades the sitting room at 11 o’clock.)

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/breeEvents-work2.gif

Gordis, I figured that Merry got bored about the same time Pippin got drunk. (It should take about an hour for a young hobbit to get overwarm after dinner.) In any case, I figured Merry walked about 15 minutes away from the Inn, and then back. Since he already knew the way to the West Gate, I figured he walked there. He’s never been to Bree before, but his friends and relatives have, so he’s not scared of the place (like Sam); however, he’s unlikely to go wandering around in the dark where he doesn’t already know the way in a strange town (as Pippin might). A leisurely walk over to the West Gate takes about as long as riding ponies to the Inn in an unfamiliar town, I figured, and so does a leisurely walk back… Hey! A Black Rider! Across from the Inn!

And, no, I did not yet add columns for Ferny, Harry, and the Isengarder. Next time.

Okay, everybody. Please help us find all the mistakes.

If you haven’t posted, or you think we’ll eat you, or you’re shy, don’t hold back: speak up! If it isn’t right, or you don’t understand, tell us!

[Alcuin]

I think I got it.

Nob doesn’t leave until Butterbur sends him to look for Merry after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter to Frodo. That’ll be important in a bit.

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/breeEvents-work4-1.gif (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents.htm)

I think Merry came upon the Ringwraith just as it had called out the One Ring, and just as Frodo was falling off the table. Merry interrupted him, but the Ring had already revealed itself. Merry didn’t see anyone else on the street was because they were all in the Commons room at the Pony hooting at Frodo. The Ringwraith sees Merry and skedaddles off to Ferny’s house. Merry follows him.

The party at the Pony breaks up in a huff. Ferny, the Isengarder, and possibly Harry (suddenly suffering Heisenberg Syndrome after Schrödinger's cat scratched him) start for home. Meanwhile, Merry reaches Ferny’s house ahead of Ferny and his companion(s), and finds the Black Rider speaking to someone on the other side of the hedge. Gordis, that someone has got to be the third Black Rider, who, armed with the certain knowledge that the Ringbearer is in Bree, leaves to tell the Witch-king.

The other two Ringwraiths now deal with with the interloper, Merry, who faints from Black Breath. Whether they really wanted him to follow them, or whether they think he is just spying on them, they still have to decide what to do with him. Back at the Inn, Butterbur puts two and two together and suddenly remembers Gandalf’s letter to Mr. Frodo Baggins of The Shire, which he delivers to the accident-prone “Mr. Underhill.” He sends Nob to look for Merry.

Ferny arrives home with the Isengarder, if not Harry, too. (Harry’s in and out at this point in the evening.) He realizes that Merry is not a Bree hobbit. The remaining two Ringwraiths decide to pick him up and carry him either into Ferny’s house or stable, and they probably order Ferny and the Isengarder to do it. As they start moving Merry, Nob shows up, and while he’s still too far away for the Ringwraiths to do anything about him without causing a commotion in the quiet town, Nob starts yelling. They drop Merry lest the noisy Nob rouse the town and the Ringbearer escape in the confusion.

So, Gordis, I think you were right, and the third Nazgûl left about 10 PM. It doesn’t matter whether the horses are inside the town or outside at that point.

Did I miss anything, or get anything wrong?

[Valandil]

Alcuin - your timeline and conclusions all seem very plausible to me.

Great research! :)

Merry seems to have been a consistent foiler of Nazguls. :p

BTW - I deleted the post you didn't want anymore... you have to ask one of us for something like that.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

[Attalus]

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).I agree with this, and regret the "long post" that was lost. For long posts, I type them out in Word or similar programs and save them. That comes in useful on Tolkien forums when somebody raises old questions like "Who really slew the Witch-King?" :p

[Alcuin]

DPR, the website (http://www.cmpsolv.com/los/sunsetexp.html) I used to get the times for London’s sunset and dusk say that sunrise the following day should be 05:07 - Astronomical Twilight Begins
05:47 - Nautical Twilight Begins
06:26 - Civil Twilight Begins
06:59 - SunriseDawn should begin about 6:30, with sunrise at 7.

Hammond and Scull complain that the cock crowed in Crickhollow before the Black Riders broke down the door of Frodo’s house. RC, “Knife in the Dark”, 176 (I: 188): …traditionally the cock crows to signal dawn…, at which time ghosts and apparitions must vanish…However, Tolkien demonstrates once again that he has better insight even than his friendly critics. My grandmother lived on a farm and kept chickens. They start crowing well before sunrise, typically when it’s still dark. That’s one way farmers awakened before dawn to check on their animals in the days before alarm clocks. The chickens could have been up as early as a quarter of 6, long before 6:30.

Dr. Attalus is right: you’re safer to use Word or some other word processor (anyone remember WordPerfect?) to hammer out your post.

BTW, if anyone wants to copy and paste from the time-line table, there is an HTML version at this link (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents.htm), or just click on any of the graphics of the chart.

[Coffeehouse]

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

The first point I agree very much on. The Nazgûl would have seen enough homes alight and neither would midnight necessarily be the darkest hour. I would think though that the Nazgûl, if they were judging what hour the most people were asleep, I would presume they knew little about first and second sleep. Being Nazgûl I can't see exactly them being able to imagine this as they did not themselves sleep. And I don't think seeing your horse sleep counts as any experience with this:p

But if it is true that the coldest and darkest hour is in the hour just before dawn (in northern Europe this varies greatly between the seasons I believe, with a great variation between the summer and the winter) then it probably is so that the Nazgûl attacked then.

I think am though more inclined to believe that they attacked around 3am to 4am at night.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Nazgul were all once Men. Of course they knew the sleep pattern. Everyone knew it; it was second nature in the time before electric lights. And as you say, the candles and lamps alight during the waking hour(s) after midnight would be obvious to the Nazgul and they would have to wait, regardless of their knowledge of sleep patterns.

Sunrise for September 30 in London is 7:00AM Daylight Savings Time, according to this site (I couldn't figure out how to use Alcuin's link):
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=136&month=9&year=2009&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1
And we have to assume there was no "daylight savings time" in Bree, making it a 6:00AM sunrise.

Combine that information with the method of attack set at Crickhollow and you have the hour or so before dawn (between 4:30 and 5:00) as the time of the attack.

EDIT: Changed 29th to 30th

[Alcuin]

And we have to assume there was no "daylight savings time" in Bree, making it a 6:00AM sunrise.Oh, good grief! Did I overlook Daylight Savings Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time)?! Do I have to recalculate that whole table for the rough time-line?!!

Didn't Ben Franklin suggest Daylight Savings Time as a joke to parody Parisians who arose so late in the day (http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/franklin3.html)?

[Gordis]

UH-oh, Sorry I had no time today for this discussion. It will have to wait till tomorrow.:(

In the timelines I have studied I definitely remember reading that the Inn and the house at Crickhollow were attacked at about the same time. So it all fits.:)

[CAB]

Overall I like your timeline and central theory very much, Alcuin.

I agree with Gordis's and your (revised) idea that the third Nazgul went to inform the Witch King after Frodo's Ring-incident. Your theory is better supported this way since, if the Nazgul had this trick up their sleeves, it would have been a strange choice to send the messenger on the long trip to find the Witch King without first attempting to "ping the Ring".

I could be off base here, but the timing of the events after 9:45 for Merry and after 10:00 for Aragorn and the remaining Hobbits seems a bit stretched to me. Merry's bravery (or silliness or umm…being drawn) in following a Nazgul through an unfamiliar town at night would be extraordinary if it lasted more than just a few minutes. Also, the timeline leaves a minimum of 30 minutes between Merry following the Nazgul and Nob discovering him. If he walked at a normal pace for the majority of this time, wouldn't Merry have walked right out of a small town like Bree? If he didn't spend the majority of the time walking, then he was eavesdropping/passed out in the middle of the road for quite a while before the Nazgul did anything with him.

Concerning Aragorn and the rest of the Hobbits (while freely admitting that I haven't read this portion of the story for a few years) I recall that we are present for what has to be most (or close to most) of the time spent between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry bursting in. Half an hour minimum seems a bit long here.

I don't think that these objections (if they are valid) cause any problems concerning the main premise that a Nazgul played a role in causing Frodo's Ring-incident.

[Alcuin]

I could be off base here, but the timing of the events after 9:45 for Merry and after 10:00 for Aragorn and the remaining Hobbits seems a bit stretched to me.


You’re not off base. All times but three are estimated. The quarter-hour units are arbitrary.

I think that the distance from the Inn to the South-gate and Ferny’s house was much further than the distance from the Inn to the West Gate. The map for Bree in Karen Fonstad’s Atlas of Middle-earth shows that Ferny’s house and the South-gate are two or three times as far from the Inn as the West Gate. I don’t know how accurate her map is, but I strongly suspect Tolkien had a working map or sketch-map of Bree – he always worked from maps, and was meticulous about keeping them – so I suspect there is a Tolkien map, and that she saw it.

I think Merry was compelled to follow the Nazgûl and later recognized that. When Strider told Merry he had “a stout heart”, Merry replied, “‘I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow.’” (FotR, “Strider”)

You are right that the half-hour seems long: it is a rough time-line, but it can give us a good idea about when things happened. More important is the order of events, and whether things happened at the same time: specifically, after working on this, I have reached the conclusion that Merry found the Black Rider standing outside the Prancing Pony at the same time or very nearly the same time that Frodo had his accident, which is something I had never before considered. Even after all the times I’ve read LotR, it only now occurred to me that the Nazgûl standing outside the Prancing Pony might have influenced the Ring’s behavior. That being said, the Nazgûl did not necessarily understand that the Ring was inside the Inn: the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS (cited in RC 177 (I:189)) says the Black Riders in Bree “learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring.” (More fodder for the argument over boggled, stupid, or inept Ringwraiths; at least, these guys were not nearly as sensitive to the presence of the One Ring as Khamûl or the Witch-king.)

Use the rough time-line with the caveat that, the later into the evening it goes, the less reliable the time in the left-hand column. The only “hard” time references we have are “dusk” on 29 September, that the hobbits’ supper took three-quarters of an hour, and Merry’s testimony that he waited an hour before going out for a walk. As for the time of dusk, we know Tolkien used the calendar for 1941–42 for the phases of the moon; I think I recall that he also had an almanac: they are common, and for information like sunrise, sunset, and the phases of twilight, have been quite accurate for hundreds of years. All the other lengths of times are estimates using quarter-hour blocks.

When events tie together the characters, we know from the rough time-line what other things must have already transpired, and what is yet to happen. That is its real utility. For instance, when Merry bursts into the parlor, we know where Strider and all the hobbits are, and that Nob is with him. We also know he has followed the Black Rider to Ferny’s but he never mentions seeing anybody else, or meeting people coming out of the Pony (there should have been a lot of people in the street for that hour had the Commons room crowd already broken up, so I think the best bet is that it hadn’t when he started after the Black Rider). That means that Bill Ferny and the Isengarder reached Ferny’s house after he did, and that Merry was alone for a short time with the Black Riders who were at Ferny’s house. It strongly suggests that the mumbling he heard was another Black Rider, not Ferny or the Isengarder: the evidence leads me to conclude they were behind Merry. (That in and of itself may account for some of the time: the second Black Rider may well have asked his fellow, “Who is this halfling you just Black Breathed, Frick?” “Well, Frack, I met him outside the Inn and lured him here.” “Why on earth did you do that?” “Oh. Um … I don’t know. He was staring at me, and it bothered me! Look, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Say, what’s that racket?” “It’s Ferny and the Isengarder. Hey, you two! Do you know who this halfling is?”)

Mainly, we can determine the order of events, roughly when they occurred, and where each of the characters is from evening until morning. (Except Harry Goatleaf, who is suffering Heisenberg Syndrome these days.)

Sunrise for September 30 in London is 7:00AM Daylight Savings Time, according to this site (I couldn't figure out how to use Alcuin's link)
I specifically asked for GMT when I calculated my times on the website (http://www.cmpsolv.com/los/sunsetexp.html). When I asked for sunrise for the 30th, I forgot and left the time on automatic, which delivered DST. Sorry. The correct GMT times from the website I used are4:07 - Astronomical Twilight Begins
4:47 - Nautical Twilight Begins
5:26 - Civil Twilight Begins
5:59 – Sunrise

Does anyone know the correct GMT times for sunrise, sunset, and twilight for September 29 and 30, 1941? Those must be the times Tolkien himself used: they will be a little different from the times for 2009.

[Olmer]

Nice timetable Alcuin, seems gives a very visual idea of an exact whereabout of all major "players", which makes it a quite valuable in Tolkien's work study. Besides, interesting theory.:)
Also, the timeline leaves a minimum of 30 minutes between Merry following the Nazgul and Nob discovering him. If he walked at a normal pace for the majority of this time, wouldn't Merry have walked right out of a small town like Bree?

According to Karen Fonstad's map ( and all her maps were made on detaled studies of Tolkien's own drawings and calculations) to the Ferny's house is a little bit less than a mile.
At a normal pace (2 mph) Merry would definately be out of Bree, BUT he did not start walking right away. He went for a stroll (about 15 min?) then came back to theirs lodging quarter at the back of the inn. Stood for a while, looking at the stars, and then saw something, and went "around the corner" on the main road to take another look. It's not the fact he saw a Nazgul. Could be just another ranger ( judging by Aragorn's behavior, they had a very peculiar manner of coming and going:evil:), or someone making a shortcut from the tavern to his home.
About this time people were leaving the "Prancing Pony", and, I think, the street was not that deserted. Merry would unharriedly walk on the main road, not attracting attention, as should do any respectful hobbit. So, in my POV 30 min just barely cover his jaunt.

[Gordis]

There is a site with Fonstad's maps online. Here is the Bree one:

Bree (http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/HDR/thumbs/imagepages/prancing%20pony.html)

[CAB]

Disclaimer: I don't know much about this kind of thing, so take it for what it is worth.

Doesn't Bree as seen in that map seem a bit large? Doing some (very) rough measurements and calculations, Bree would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hectares. I checked around the internet a little bit, but was unable to find any really useful/reliable information regarding the typical sizes of Medieval European towns. Even so, the impression I get is that 200 hectares appears too big, even when considering that the Bree we see in The Lord of the Rings was much less populated than during earlier days, when there was greater traffic on the roads.

[Gordis]

Doesn't Bree as seen in that map seem a bit large? Doing some (very) rough measurements and calculations, Bree would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hectares. I checked around the internet a little bit, but was unable to find any really useful/reliable information regarding the typical sizes of Medieval European towns. Even so, the impression I get is that 200 hectares appears too big, even when considering that the Bree we see in The Lord of the Rings was much less populated than during earlier days, when there was greater traffic on the roads.

Yes, CAB, I have just thought the same thing. The road through Bree from one gate to another on Fonstad's map is a mile long! It takes half an hour, presumably, to traverse the town. But well - what I have written below corresponds to distances given by Fonstad. Keep that in mind.

I have been re-reading the Pony and "Strider" chapters. Here are some points we might have overlooked.

1.The Isengarder, as evidenced by Butterbur, had arrived to Bree the previous evening (Sept. 28) with a company of other Dunlendings. Note that this company had to be let through by the nazgul B and C who were guarding the Greenway, while the WK (A) was in the Barrows. Strider must have known that the Greenway was blocked by the nazgul, so the arriving company was definitely suspicious to Strider from the start.

But another implication is that the Southerner only just made contact with Ferny himself (maybe they knew each other previously, maybe not). What about the nazgul H and I who passed through Bree on Sept 26? The Dunlending was not yet come. Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.
Note here: Strider did say about Ferny: “Queer folk call at his house” I wonder did he mean the nazgul or the Southerner/other ruffians?

2. Important for Alcuin's timeline: Ferny and the Southerner and Harry DID NOT leave Pony together with the crowd of dissatisfied Breefolk. They left at least 10-15 minutes before them, if not more, STRAIGHT AFTER the Ring-trick. The rest remained excited, wondering and arguing about the explanation for quite some time, first with Butterbur, then with Frodo himself. In your time-line, Alcuin, you should correct Ferny’s column, IMO, making the three bad guys leave almost at the same time as Frodo has accident, about 9.47 PM.

So, if, as you say, Alcuin, Merry was by the front door by the time of Frodo’s accident, he may have not registered the exit of three inconspicuous men while he was gazing at stars. The exit of a whole crowd later he couldn’t have missed, so it is safe to assume the general exit occurred later.

My version of events:
9.45 Merry returns from stroll, gazes at stars. Frodo has “accident.” The Nazgul (H) is immobile in the shadows, watching the Common room windows from across the street.
9.47 Ferny+Isengarder quietly exit, turn south, Merry pays them no heed - he is still by the door.
9.49 The Nazgul (H) stirs and starts to follow after Ferny+Isengarder; he moves past Merry. (He had been opposite the windows of the common room, thus to the north from Merry and has to go south). His movement is observed by Merry and the Nazgul notices his awareness. The Nazgul lures Merry to follow, thinking to learn something useful from questioning the hobbit, if the Isengarder's report proves uninteresting. So they go south: Ferny and Isengarder are ahead, then the Nazgul, then Merry who has lost the sight of those ahead and falls behind.
10.05 Ferny and Isengarder reach Ferny’s house (It is about ¾ of a mile from Pony to Ferny’s house. It takes the Men about 15 min to get there) The Nazgul catches up with them and the Isengarder makes his report by the hedge.
10.10 Merry reaches Ferny’s house (it takes the hobbit about 20 min to get there). He overhears the conversation (Nazgul-Isengarder) by the hedge.
10.15 Merry faints from Black Breath and lies there. The Nazgul hears the rest of the news and forgets about Merry.
10.20 Nazgul H leaves Bree to send his comrade F to the WK. If the other two nazgul (FI) and the three horses are outside of Bree, it may take some time: about 45 min to find the others and to return back.
(that is my explanation why Merry had been left lying on the road for so long.)

3. Now let us return to the parlor.
“Butterbur shows up with Gandalf's letter; sends Nob to find Merry”. But a lot of time passes between Butterbur coming to the parlor and the sending of Nob to look for Merry. At least 15 min, I think. Thus Alcuin, you should postpone Nob’s departure to 10.30, IMO.

4. The account of the conversation in the parlor between the time Nob was sent to look for Merry and their return I read in under 15 minutes. But on Fonstad’s map of Bree the distance between the West Gate and South Gate is about a mile (by the road). Nob traveled this distance twice: Pony-West Gate – South Gate- Pony: so two miles overall. It had to take him about an hour to return to the Pony with Merry. Thus I place their return to the parlor at 11.25-11.30

10.30 Nob leaves the Pony, goes to West gate, then back to Pony (passing it around 10.50), then goes to South gate
10.50 Outside the South Gate Nazgul F leaves for Andrath with the news. The first nazgul H goes back, climbs over the gate and returns to Bree.
11.05 The first nazgul H returns to Ferny’s house, sees Merry still in a swoon on the road and orders Ferny and the Isengarder to carry him inside Bill’s house.
11.10. Nob comes to Ferny’s house (20 min from Pony), shouts and the ruffians drop Merry.
11.25 Nob and Merry return to the Pony (it takes them only 15 min, because they run all the way.)

What do you think?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Does anyone know the correct GMT times for sunrise, sunset, and twilight for September 29 and 30, 1941? Those must be the times Tolkien himself used: they will be a little different from the times for 2009.
Sunrise for London, September 30, 1941, without DST, according to this site:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/sunriseset.html
is 5:59AM.

[Olmer]

I have just thought the same thing. The road through Bree from one gate to another on Fonstad's map is a mile long! It takes half an hour, presumably, to traverse the town.
By my calculation the size of the town is aprox. 60-70 acres, which is normal for a small town. Have to bear in mind that usually the dwellings are being consructed along the main road, so the town could be not much of the size, but a pretty long on the stretch.

So, if, as you say, Alcuin, Merry was by the front door by the time of Frodo’s accident, he may have not registered the exit of three inconspicuous men while he was gazing at stars. The exit of a whole crowd later he couldn’t have missed, so it is safe to assume the general exit occurred later.
I think that he missed the exit of the whole crowd all right. Because, according to the book, he did not stay by the front of the tavern, but away from the light. Presumably not too far from the hobbit's lodging on the back of the inn. Whatever shade or shape he saw across the street from this distance, it was not clear enough to make a positive ID.:p So, he had to go "around the corner" to get to the main street, and then he would pass the front door of the inn on his way to the South-gates.

[Attalus]

Not totally relevant, but interesting is that Shakespeare, in Henry IV, Part 2 has Falstaff remind Shallow that "We have heard the chimes at midnight," suggesting that this was an unusual accomplishment. However in the Middle Ages, the monks and nuns were forced to rise in the middle of the night for the "Midnight Office" (not usually prayed by the laity) and "Vespers" at dawn. Admittedly, Middle-earth was a pre-Christian society, but this shows it was not unheard of.

[CAB]

I don't know, Olmer. The road runs from north to south through Bree for approximately 7000 feet. If Bree was only 70 acres, then it would have been a band 440 feet wide along the road. This can't be correct. If Bree was 70 hectares (1 hectare is about 2.5 acres), then the band would have been 1100 feet wide. But according to the map 1100 feet from the road wouldn't have reached the hedge to the west (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the west side of the road) or a large proportion of the houses to the east (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the east side of the road).

Like I said, I don't know much about this. Still, according to this map the dike and hedge were about 2.5 miles long yet still didn't come anywhere close to encircling the whole town. Does that sound like the Bree that Frodo and Co. encounter? If these distances are correct, then the Hobbits living at the end of the road winding up the hillside had to walk about a mile and a half to get to their local tavern. Poor saps. If they needed to get from their homes to the south gate, they had a two and a half mile walk ahead of them, through what Tolkien described as a village. Seems like a rather large village to me.

Gordis, I like your sequence of events concerning the early departure of Ferny and the Southerner, the Nazgul following them, and this causing Merry to notice and then follow the Nazgul. Makes sense.

I think some of your times are greatly stretched due to working with a map that depicts Bree as being much larger than it should be. For instance, there is no way that the time between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry's return should/could have been over an hour. I would like to wait and see what Alcuin has to say about the map situation before making any more comments regarding the distances in Bree.

But a lot of time passes between Butterbur coming to the parlor and the sending of Nob to look for Merry. At least 15 min, I think. Thus Alcuin, you should postpone Nob’s departure to 10.30, IMO.

Actually, Alcuin's timeline agrees with these times. If they arrived at the beginning of the 10:15 to 10:30 block and Nob left at the end of it, then it accommodates your times, Gordis.


Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.

Good question. If I recall correctly, in The Hunt for the Ring, it is said that the Nazgul got only information about the Shire from the Southerner they captured. Still, once the Witch King realized the Shire's location and proximity to Bree (and thus, Bree's importance) he may have demanded information regarding Saruman's spies in Bree. This would be my guess concerning how the Nazgul came to learn about Ferny, but certainly there are other workable scenarios.


Note here: Strider did say about Ferny: “Queer folk call at his house” I wonder did he mean the nazgul or the Southerner/other ruffians?

The wording here leads me to believe that this has been going on for a while, since long before the time we are discussing. This fits with Ferny's having been a spy of Saruman and with the Rangers having been aware of Saruman's spies for a good while prior to Frodo's flight.

[Gordis]

I think that he missed the exit of the whole crowd all right. Because, according to the book, he did not stay by the front of the tavern, but away from the light. Presumably not too far from the hobbit's lodging on the back of the inn. Whatever shade or shape he saw across the street from this distance, it was not clear enough to make a positive ID.:p So, he had to go "around the corner" to get to the main street, and then he would pass the front door of the inn on his way to the South-gates.

Good catch about the corner, Olmer.
'It seemed to make off up the Road, eastward,' continued Merry. 'I tried to follow. Of course, it vanished almost at once; but I went round the corner and on as far as the last house on the Road.'
So if we look at the upper right drawing of the inn here (http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/HDR/thumbs/imagepages/prancing%20pony.html), Merry appeared to stay on the north lane by the long side wall with hobbit's rooms windows, parlor windows and common room windows. (Grosse Wirtz-stube - is that the Common room?:confused: Looks too small for my tastes...) Anyway it has windows opening to two sides: on the north lane and on the road by the entrance. Naturally the nazgul also preferred to stay in the lane, away from the busy entrance, but likely he watched the door as well. To go south, both the nazgul and Merry had to go round the corner.

However, I don't believe that the nazgul waited long after the exit of the Isengarder - he must have been impatient to hear the news. Therefore the crowd left the Inn after the nazgul and Merry were gone.

I think some of your times are greatly stretched due to working with a map that depicts Bree as being much larger than it should be. For instance, there is no way that the time between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry's return should/could have been over an hour. I would like to wait and see what Alcuin has to say about the map situation before making any more comments regarding the distances in Bree. I fully agree. Maybe instead of miles, the scalebar should be in kilometers? If the map is translated to German, it would make sense. Here maybe lies the mistake.
And that reduces all the distances 3:1.:)

The wording here leads me to believe that this has been going on for a while, since long before the time we are discussing. This fits with Ferny's having been a spy of Saruman and with the Rangers having been aware of Saruman's spies for a good while prior to Frodo's flight.
Makes sense. Naturally Strider thought them to be Mordor spies, not Saruman's.;)

[Gordis]

Oh, just noticed the side entrance, from the lane, right between the parlor and the Hobbits' rooms! Of course Merry stood by it!
The nazgul likely stood closer to the corner to watch both entrances to the Inn.

Edit : Two entrances fit this quote:
'Good night to you,' said Nob, and went off to take his part in the watch on the doors.

[Gordis]

Sunrise for London, September 30, 1941, without DST, according to this site:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/sunriseset.html
is 5:59AM.

Hmm... Frodo said to Butterbur:
'In any case we must be called at dawn,' said Frodo. 'We must get off as early as possible. Breakfast at six-thirty, please.'
If dawn is 6.30, then sunrise would be at seven. But maybe they needed an hour to get dressed for breakfast? :D

[Alcuin]

Well, I am certainly delighted that everyone is looking hard at this to determine what happened in Bree and when and where. Gordis, I think you are correct: I reread “The Sign of the Prancing Pony”, and Ferny and the Isengarder left the Inn quite soon after Frodo’s “accident”, with Harry the Gatekeeper (who has been suffering Heisenberg Syndrome for 5 years now) in tow, before the rest of the crowd, who stayed . Let me reread it to be sure that I have everything in order, I will make that correction in the rough time-line.

I have one comment on the all overwhelming information:http://p-userpic.livejournal.com/34006384/1241432

I will do the best I can to fit everything that’s still out of place into the rough time-line. I need to read everyone’s posts thoroughly: I will have a lot of questions, and if you can, try to answer them without too much delay. It may be late tonight or tomorrow before I began to post again. (It’s a three-day weekend in the United States: Monday is the observation of George Washington’s birthday, which we now call “President’s Day” because Lincoln’s birthday is also nearby. Washington’s birthday is February 22, 1732, in the Gregorian calendar (“New Style”), but England and its colonies were still using the Julian calendar when he was born on February 11, 1732, Old Style. Monday, of course, will be the 16th.)

Just a few quick points:

Tolkien made a lot of maps and sketches. We know the layout of Dunharrow, for instance, and we have two maps of Torech Ungol (Shelob’s Lair), one of which is quite detailed. Let’s please agree for now that Karen Fonsted’s map is the one we will use for better or worse, and give her the benefit of the doubt, hoping that she saw one of Tolkien’s sketch-maps for Bree. At least she had access to the archives and help from the archivists, and we do not.
DPR, I used your link to check sunset for London for September 29, 1941. It is 5:44 PM, one minute off this year’s number. I think we’re good to go from there. If anyone cares to check to see how far off our (real) September 29 is from the Shire Reckoning September 29, there is a calendar for the purpose at Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp), and there may be others on the web, too. We can also work from the autumn equinox, if anyone cares to do that: line up the dates over and under one another for the Shire Reckoning and the Gregorian calendar. The Appendices to RotK have the Shire Reckoning calendar in them, along with the dates of the equinoxes.
Große Wirtsstube is “big pub room” auf Deutsch. Yes, that’s the Common room. Without the Inn, we would simply call it a “tavern”, and our German friends would call it a Wirtshaus, which translates as “public house”, or “pub” for short.
15-minute intervals give us 4 blocks per hour, 12-minute intervals give us 5 blocks per hour, and 10-minute intervals give us 6 blocks per hour. We need to keep the intervals even as best we can. In gaming, like D&D, these blocks are called “turns”. I played AD&D as the dungeon master for a seven-year long campaign in college and afterwards, and I am accustomed to managing them: but we need to keep them even. If we start breaking down into smaller time units, unless there is individual combat underway (as on Weathertop), experience suggests that boredom and bickering soon follow. The fewer turns per hour, the better.
The most important thing: if your suggestion is not immediately incorporated, or left out, please don’t get angry and go away! Let’s all work through what we have: this is going to take some time. I think we have about 90% of the problem done. In problems like this, the last 10% is almost always the hardest.

Now I’m going to digest all this a bit. PLEASE KEEP POSTING! Find as many problems and issues as you can! Let’s do this together.

[CAB]

Let’s please agree for now that Karen Fonsted’s map is the one we will use for better or worse, and give her the benefit of the doubt, hoping that she saw one of Tolkien’s sketch-maps for Bree.

I was afraid you were going to say that. :D I agree this is probably what has to be done, but I think we will probably run into timing issues after Ferny, the Southerner, the Nazgul, and Merry go for that long stroll south (as evidenced already by Gordis's timeline suggestions).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If dawn is 6.30, then sunrise would be at seven. But maybe they needed an hour to get dressed for breakfast? :D

Maybe Tolkien forgot to adjust for daylight savings time, too. :eek:
More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.

[Gordis]

Maybe Tolkien forgot to adjust for daylight savings time, too. :eek:
More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.
Actually Tolkien had BST not DST, which amounts much to the same.;)

British Summer Time or BST is the civil time during the summer months in the United Kingdom during which the clocks are advanced from Greenwich mean time by one hour. It was first established by the Summer Time Act of 1916, was amended by subsequent acts and is now defined by the Summer Time Order of 2002 which laid down that it would be

...the period beginning at one o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the last Sunday in March and ending at one o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the last Sunday in October.

—The Summer Time Order 2002[1]

[edit] Double summer time BST was introduced during World War I as an energy-saving measure. During World War II, a further hour was added to establish British Double Summer Time or BSDT.[2]


Well, as BST had been introduced as early as 1916, I believe Tolkien may have taken it for granted, and his ME does have BST or MST (Middle-Earth Summer Time).
We can speculate it was introduced by Sauron during Dark years:D (seems like his kind of regulation) and then everyone has become used to it.

See also this quote:
Frodo: 'I shan't be doing anything of the sort again, Mr. Butterbur, I promise you. And now I think I'll be getting to bed. We shall be making an early start. Will you see that our ponies are ready by eight o'clock?'
If sunrise is at six, then how on ME can this be called "an early start"? Much more likely sunrise was at seven.

About Bree. Fonstad's map seems to have at least one noticeable deviation from the LOTR description. Fonstad has the third Gate, North Gate, which Bree didn't have, IMO:

The village of Bree had some hundred stone houses of the Big Folk, mostly above the Road, nestling on the hillside with windows looking west. On that side, running in more than half a circle from the hill and back to it, there was a deep dike with a thick hedge on the inner side. Over this the Road crossed by a causeway; but where it pierced the hedge it was barred by a great gate. There was another gate in the southern corner where the Road ran out of the village. The gates were closed at nightfall; but just inside them were small lodges for the gatekeepers.

[Gordis]

But another implication is that the Southerner only just made contact with Ferny himself (maybe they knew each other previously, maybe not). What about the nazgul H and I who passed through Bree on Sept 26? The Dunlending was not yet come. Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.
HI go on through Bree asking for news, to make sure 'Baggins' has not escaped and got ahead. They get in touch with Bill Ferney.- HOME 7, p.71 "Date was corected to Sept 26, CT" note 9
So I guess it is settled. Ferny was hired by the nazgul already on Sept.26.

[Alcuin]

Just reread “Prancing Pony” and “Strider”.

As a general note on the presence of the Black Rider outside the Inn.
Before the accident, when Frodo was standing on the table, the text says,

…unaccountably the desire came on him to slip [the Ring] on and vanish out the of the silly situation. It seemed to him, somehow, as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room.

After the accident, in nearly the same words.

…he wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had revealed itself to some wish or command that was felt in the room.


If there is any allegory in The Lord of the Rings, it is the Rings of Power as Machines. Tolkien actually discusses the One Ring as Machine. Again, my son’s idea that the Black Rider across the Road “pinged” the Ring the way we might ping Entmoot:

ringwraith>ping Entmoot.com

Pinging Entmoot.com [204.11.53.229] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=32ms TTL=54
Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54
Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54
Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54

Ping statistics for 204.11.53.229:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 31ms, Maximum = 32ms, Average = 31ms

ringwraith>


When I ping Entmoot, I have no rights and no privileges. If Entmoot is down, or Ben has disabled the ping response, nothing will happen; otherwise, Entmoot will say, “I’m here, I’m here, I’m here.” That’s what the Ring has done, except for the One Ring to say, “I’m here,” it needed to show itself by having Frodo put it on. We can discuss whether it is purely machine or sentient or semi- sentient elsewhere: but I think that’s the Nazgûl standing across the Road. He has no rights, and no control: but like ping, asking the One Ring if it’s there might be a pretty low-level request, and one with which Sauron would surely have equipped his Nine Bogeymen if at all possible: otherwise, they might not find it at all. And the Ringwraith in the Road still didn’t find it on his own (Khamûl or the Witch-king would have, I think): he had to be told by the Isengarder what happened, or so I gather from the “Hunt for the Ring” manuscript citations in RC.

-|-

I read all the dialogue of Strider and the hobbits out loud. I timed myself. I have read The Lord of the Rings aloud to my children at least four times. I’m not a professional actor, but I think I read it neither too quickly not too slowly. I did not account for movement, but for breathing, how long it took to speak the words, and for obvious (short) pauses.

The dialogue is interrupted by Butterbur’s entry into the parlor with Gandalf’s overdue letter. (More about this at another time, but in fact, with Gandalf’s letter delivered at just this moment with Aragorn in the room, and Frodo alarmed and in distress, it could not have come at a better moment: and so Butterbur’s bad memory might be seen as a blessing.) It took me 12 minutes to read the first half of the dialogue, and that should properly be accompanied by some action (closing the door, building the fire): I think 15 minutes is quite fair. At this point, as Gordis has already pointed out, Butterbur sends Nob to look for Merry.

The second half of the dialogue involves Frodo reading the letter and passing it to Sam and Pippin, and Aragorn mock-threatening the hobbits to win their trust (mock-threatening because he isn’t really threatening: i.e., he is no threat, because he could take the Ring). This took me a full 15 minutes, and then Merry bangs open the door, runs in the room, and Nob follows.

I haven’t yet moved Ferny, the Isengarder, and Harry “the Heisenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)” Gatekeeper to leave just after Frodo’s accident in the rough time-line: that’s tomorrow’s task. (Yes, I know I’m putting off until tomorrow what I could do tonight, but it’s almost 4 AM here.) Look back at the post (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=642315&postcount=47) or the website (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/BreeEvents.htm). I think that Aragorn’s discussion with the hobbits, Butterbur’s entry into the room, and Nob’s departure are all in about the correct timeframe, except that Butterbur’s sending Nob needs to move to the next “turn”.

Now this creates a problem. Some of you have noticed that Fonstad has marked a side-door to the Inn through which Merry might have passed. The door isn’t mentioned in the text, nor in the drafts, as far as I can tell: the only way she would know that is that
she made it up herself,
it’s in a draft to which we haven’t access, or
it’s in a sketch of the Inn we haven’t elsewhere seen.

Now, I urged that we assume that Fonstad made her sketch of Bree based upon a sketch by Tolkien that is not yet published. If we make that assumption, I think we are compelled to extend it to the notion that there is also a side-door to the Inn; and after all, there is no mention of Merry passing through the Commons room (the ole’ Große Wirtsstube), so it seems a fair bet. Moreover, the hobbits heard the door bang when Merry and Nob came running back, with Merry outrunning Nob: the front door (under the arch, the one the hobbits first entered when they met Butterbur) clearly led into the Commons room, just as Fonstad’s floorplan suggests. So, although I don’t like it very much (it isn’t in the published text, and there isn’t a published Tolkien sketch of the Inn), I guess I have to admit that it sure looks as if Fonstad is correct, and there is a side door.

This brings us to another point. The second half of the dialogue, where Frodo reads Gandalf’s letter, has some “acting” or movement for which I did not account: for instance, Frodo examines the letter and its seal very carefully, and Aragorn draws the broken Narsil from its sheath, just to name two. These will extend the length of time this “turn” would last in “real life”; but of course, we’re ignoring extensions and contractions of “turns” for this exercise. (Or the DM goes batty.) Let’s assume a best-case scenario, that Nob, who’s been sent to put hot water in the bedrooms, is standing right outside the door when Butterbur steps out at the end of the last turn. According to Fonstad’s map, the fastest way out is not though the north-facing side door, but out the main door. Nob might step out the side door if it meant that he could look up at the North-Gate (not mentioned in the text, and surely little used it at all) and the West-Gate. Hammond and Scull have kindly provided us with the moons Tolkien used (RC, “Chronologies, Calendars and Moon” in the preliminaries before the novel itself begins), and September 29 was two days past the first quarter. Now, in “Knife in the Dark”, the moon is up early; but we have a little more than quarter-moon light, and Nob with a lamp.

Can Nob see a thousand feet into the night with half-moon light and a light? And if he can, how long did it take him (Nob’s a hobbit, remember) to get close enough to Ferny’s house to see whoever it was (Frick and Frack, I say) lifting Merry and yell so that they drop him? After all that. Merry still has to run home and bang the door.

The time problem is here: Unless the second half of the dialogue between Strider and the hobbits (after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter and then leaves) takes more than 15 minutes – more like 30 minutes, but certainly more than 15! – I think we might have found an error. It could be Tolkien’s error if he has too much happening too fast; or it could be Fonstad’s error, she’s made Bree too big.

Or it could be that Fonstad has correctly drawn Bree from a Tolkien sketch, but Tolkien sketched Bree too long from east to west. I’m in favor of this last: Tolkien used a sketch, Fonstad saw it, but the sketch makes Bree to “wide” longitudinally, from east to west. It isn’t a half-mile or a mile to Ferny’s house: it’s a much shorter distance. I think that will satisfy Olmer and CAB, and I think it is probably very close to the truth.

-|-

After Merry enters the room, Strider himself remarks that

“The Riders must have left their hoses outside, and passed back through the South-gate in secret. They will know all the news now, for they have visited Bill Ferny; and probably that Southerner was a spy as well.”

Tolkien reminds us in his letters and interviews that his characters are not omniscient, and he goes to pains to be sure of it; but that’s what Gordis thinks, too, and she actually has benefit of “The Hunt for the Ring”, which Aragorn could not have obtained without breaking Sauron’s version of Enigma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine) or Purple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_code).

-|-

I’ll make two changes tomorrow: I’ll move Bill Ferny and the Isengarder leaving the Inn up one turn, I’ll move Nob’s going out to look for Merry back one turn.Are there any other changes I need to make?

-|-

How shall we interpret the very “busy” turn with Gandalf’s letter, Nob’s search for Merry, and Merry’s run back to the Inn? Can all that really in 15 (or 20) minutes, or is this more like two turns?

And did Fonstad (and presumably Tolkien before her) sketch Bree too wide?

Everyone please let me know what you think!

And did I leave anything out from anyone?

-|-



Maybe Tolkien forgot to adjust for daylight savings time, too.

More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.
Actually Tolkien had BST not DST, which amounts much to the same.


British Summer Time or BST is the civil time during the summer months in the United Kingdom during which the clocks are advanced from Greenwich mean time by one hour. It was first established by the Summer Time Act of 1916, was amended by subsequent acts and is now defined by the Summer Time Order of 2002 which laid down that it would be

...the period beginning at one o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the last Sunday in March and ending at one o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the last Sunday in October.

I think he used an almanac. Hammond and Scull reference Whitaker’s Almamack for 1942.

I really don’t like daylight savings time. Ben Franklin was right: it’s a joke. And it’s fouling up my rough time-line.

[Gordis]

Alcuin,

I like the ping idea, and everything you say in this relation seems correct.

I read all the dialogue of Strider and the hobbits out loud. I timed myself.
It took me 12 minutes to read the first half of the dialogue, and that should properly be accompanied by some action (closing the door, building the fire): I think 15 minutes is quite fair. At this point, as Gordis has already pointed out, Butterbur sends Nob to look for Merry.

The second half of the dialogue involves Frodo reading the letter and passing it to Sam and Pippin, and Aragorn mock-threatening the hobbits to win their trust (mock-threatening because he isn’t really threatening: i.e., he is no threat, because he could take the Ring). This took me a full 15 minutes, and then Merry bangs open the door, runs in the room, and Nob follows.
I got the same times, though I stopped reading it aloud after my son asked me if I have gone crazy.:D
I propose we should base our timeline on these canonic times, not on distances on Fonstad's uncanonic map, (or, alternatively, make two versions of the timeline - one according to the text only)

I think Fonstad had access to some Tolkien sketches for Bree, but likely those were without scalebars. She added scalebars, but got it wrong. Well it happens, she was an awesome map-maker regardless.:)

Also think on it: what was the point for sending Nob with a lantern to look for Merry in such a HUGE town as Bree seems to be: with main road a mile long, another two miles long etc? Most likely search parties would be organized, Strider would have gone etc. Tolkien calls Bree "little village".

I think that Aragorn’s discussion with the hobbits, Butterbur’s entry into the room, and Nob’s departure are all in about the correct timeframe, except that Butterbur’s sending Nob needs to move to the next “turn”. I agree.

Now, I urged that we assume that Fonstad made her sketch of Bree based upon a sketch by Tolkien that is not yet published. If we make that assumption, I think we are compelled to extend it to the notion that there is also a side-door to the Inn; and after all, there is no mention of Merry passing through the Commons room (the ole’ Große Wirtsstube), so it seems a fair bet. Moreover, the hobbits heard the door bang when Merry and Nob came running back, with Merry outrunning Nob: the front door (under the arch, the one the hobbits first entered when they met Butterbur) clearly led into the Commons room, just as Fonstad’s floorplan suggests. So, although I don’t like it very much (it isn’t in the published text, and there isn’t a published Tolkien sketch of the Inn), I guess I have to admit that it sure looks as if Fonstad is correct, and there is a side door.
There should be: Nob said he was going to watch the DOORS (plural).

Can Nob see a thousand feet into the night with half-moon light and a light? And if he can, how long did it take him (Nob’s a hobbit, remember) to get close enough to Ferny’s house to see whoever it was (Frick and Frack, I say) lifting Merry and yell so that they drop him? After all that. Merry still has to run home and bang the door.
He said he went down to the west gate, then up to the South-Gate. As for the overall time of Nob's trip, I think we should stick to about 20 min, the length of the second part of the conversation in the parlor. So under 5 min to go to the West gate and return, and a bit over 15 min to go to the South Gate and return (running back).

The time problem is here: Unless the second half of the dialogue between Strider and the hobbits (after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter and then leaves) takes more than 15 minutes – more like 30 minutes, but certainly more than 15! – I think we might have found an error. It could be Tolkien’s error if he has too much happening too fast; or it could be Fonstad’s error, she’s made Bree too big.
Yes, I believe we have to blame Fonstad's scalebar.

I’ll make two changes tomorrow: I’ll move Bill Ferny and the Isengarder leaving the Inn up one turn, I’ll move Nob’s going out to look for Merry back one turn.Are there any other changes I need to make? I advise to shorten the distances and the corresponding travel times. 7 min for a fast Big Man to go from Pony to the South Gate, about 10 min. for a hobbit.

How shall we interpret the very “busy” turn with Gandalf’s letter, Nob’s search for Merry, and Merry’s run back to the Inn? Can all that really in 15 (or 20) minutes, or is this more like two turns?
It is not a game with turns, Alcuin. I advise to make as many time-intervals as needed, when the action is moving fast.

I think he used an almanac. Hammond and Scull reference Whitaker’s Almamack for 1942.

I really don’t like daylight savings time. Ben Franklin was right: it’s a joke. And it’s fouling up my rough time-line.
I advise you to forget the existence of DST as Tolkien himself probably did. Let the sunrise be at 7, as it fits the text (see my 2 quotes given previously). The sunrise at 6 doesn't fit the text. Change nothing.

[CAB]

I propose we should base our timeline on these canonic times, not on distances on Fonstad's uncanonic map

I agree.

1. The times we get using the map will not work with those we get from the text. Either the map or the text is flawed. I vote for the map.

2. As Gordis points out, the map is uncanonic.

3. So far as I can tell, we don't need the map. It is only being used to (hopefully) backup and visualize what we get from the text.

4. Altering the map doesn’t seem to be a good option to me. What will we alter next?

5. We don't know who made the scaling mistake (assuming that is the only mistake on the map, see Gordis's earlier quote regarding an extra gate), Tolkien or Fonstad.

6. I think you would be better served using your timeline to demonstrate that the map is flawed. Considering that it is supposed to be a small town/village, Bree as depicted on the map appears too large. Using other information, your timeline proves it.

7. It seems, Alcuin, that your main purpose here is to show how masterfully Tolkien put this scene together. You would be hurting your own cause by including a map that makes the times gathered from the text (nearly) impossible. And this isn't necessary. Tolkien didn't draw this map.


Also think on it: what was the point for sending Nob with a lantern to look for Merry in such a HUGE town as Bree seems to be: with main road a mile long, another two miles long etc? Most likely search parties would be organized, Strider would have gone etc. Tolkien calls Bree "little village".

Another good point. The map simply does not fit the text.


Edit: Alcuin, you mentioned that Bree in the map may have been too "wide". But even if it was "narrower", the road through this (supposedly) small and (definitely) hedged/diked town still would have exceeded a mile. I think the simpler and more likely explanation is that the scale is wrong. It would seem that Gordis thinks so too.

If you really want to utilize the map, maybe we can do it this way: Complete the timeline using the text, dusk times, sunset times, "acting out scene" times, etc. Then we can go back and try to find a range of scales that would make the map fit the timeline (I am guessing the scale should be about 1/3 of what it is now, or even less). Once this is done, perhaps we could make some guesses as to what mistake lead to the scale problem.

[Gordis]

I have a new finding to share.;)
I was going to write a post telling that none of Tolkien's sketches of maps have scalebars. I was checking HOME - and what did I find?

Tolkien's own map of Bree! (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/Gor-Dis/TolkBreeH6p335.jpg) Home VI (The Return of the Shadow) p.335
I have scanned it for you.

There was no scalebar, note - there was the whole page reproduced, I have cut the empty edges.

The layout is pretty much like Fonstad's, but the West gate is further away from the Pony - in Tolkien's version the Pony is only a little bit further from the South Gate than it is from the West Gate.

Ah, yes, the third, North Gate is present in the map (with a small lane leading to it), though there is no mention of it in the final text. I think Tolkien later rejected the idea (what is the use of a special Gate leading to deserted Greenway in the direction of the long-dead Fornost?).

But the North Gate had been of importance in the rejected drafts: it was this gate Gandalf used to slip out of Bree quietly (HOME 6, p.347.)


Anyway, the map fits with what we read in LOTR in all other respects. The hobbits rode on up a gentle slope, passing a few detached houses, and drew up outside the inn.
It was 1-2 houses in the draft, corrected to "a few" And indeed on the map there are 6 houses, and they are detached. Likely previously there were much more houses in Bree.
Tis quote also leaves the impression that it was fairly close from the Gate to the Pony, so the same must apply to the southern side as well.

Also in a rejected version, Harry at the West Gate let the nazgul pass then
Harry heard the sound of hoofs going off towards the village. He unlocked the door stealthily, and then crept out, and peered up the road. It was too foggy and already too dark to see much. But he heard the hoofs halt at the bend of the Road by the inn.-Home 6 347 - 8
Again it must be close from the Gate to the Pony.

Also have another look on the map: the distance from the Crossroads beyond the West Gate to the gate is 2/3 of the distance Gate-Pony. Here is a passage from HOME 7, p.74
The rain that swept over the Forest and the Downs on Tuesday was still falling long and grey on Bree when evening came. The lights were just being lit in Tom's house, when the noise of horses approaching came down the Road from the west. Harry Goatleaf the gatekeeper [...] went out, grumbling at the rain, and looking up the Road he thought he saw dark figures approaching swiftly, three or maybe four. But suddenly they turned left at the Cross Roads just beyond the gate, and went off southwards and down the Greenway
He was able to see crossroads in the dusk while it was raining: it was indeed "just beyond the Gate"

I think all of this evidence combined proves that all the mess comes from the wrong scale bar on Fonstad's map.

About the additional entrance to the Inn: Gandalf took his leave of the landlord at a side-door. Home 6, p. 346

[CAB]

Great finds, Gordis. :)

Fonstad's map is clearly shown to be inaccurate. Wherever the scale may have come from (couldn't be Tolkien's map), it is obviously incorrect. The quotes prove that Bree was far more compact than what is seen on Fonstad's map. They show that the distance between the West Gate and crossroads is much less than the 1/4 mile on Fonstad's map. Tolkien's own map shows that even Bree's proportions were misrepresented.

Tolkien's map may not be as pretty, but surely it takes precedence. We are examining his work here, not Fonstad's. What do you say, Alcuin? Are we switching maps?

One more time….Great finds, Gordis. :):) Not that I have anything against Ms. Fonstad, but that map has really been bugging me.

[Alcuin]

The map is only for the purpose of placement and relative distance. If we assume that the scale is off, then the relative distances remain unchanged. I suspect that Fonstad actually saw a Tolkien sketch, but one without scale. If we let go the scale, the problem goes away.

It is not a game with turns, Alcuin. I advise to make as many time-intervals as needed, when the action is moving fast.
We’re making estimates. We can’t make a real time-line, because we don’t know exactly what Tolkien had in mind. Even if we did, we might only uncover an error, however unlikely that would seem in this instance.

I advise you to forget the existence of DST as Tolkien himself probably did. Let the sunrise be at 7, as it fits the text (see my 2 quotes given previously). The sunrise at 6 doesn't fit the text. Change nothing.
The rough time-line is based upon GMT. If we move to BST, then everything gets pushed back one hour, because dusk is now 7:15 instead of 6:15, and Strider is barricading the room around midnight instead of 11. It is an Excel spreadsheet, and easy to change, but we need to footnote that noon is at 1 PM because Tolkien was unconsciously using BST. And if he is using BST, then he was almost certainly using an almanac for his times for sunrise, sunset, and dusk!

Tolkien's own map of Bree! Home VI (The Return of the Shadow) p.335I reread Return of the Shadow when I first began this thread. How did I miss that? Thank you! It does have different relative scaling from Fonstad’s map. On Tolkien’s map, the Inn is nearly equidistant from the West Gate, the South Gate, and the disused North Gate. In the days of the High Kings at Annúminas and Fornost, I expect the North Gate was a busily-traveled convenience: using it meant that you did not have to exit through the West Gate and then turn north.

In the final version, there are about 100 houses of the Big Folk in Bree, and about as many Little Folk. That makes the population around 1200–2000, I expect.


Are we switching maps?Yes, I think we must use Tolkien’s sketch-map: it fits the rough time-line – and the published text! – much better.

[Alcuin]

I’ve started to update the rough time-line.

Using Tolkien’s rough sketch from Return of the Shadow instead of Fonstad’s map of Bree makes a tremendous difference. It is about as far to the South Gate from the Prancing Pony as it is the West Gate.

Butterbur still sends Nob after Merry in the same time-block as before, not the next time-block. Gordis, you and I both read those passages aloud, and as best I can determine, Butterbur leaves the scene and sends Nob on his search about half-way through that time-block.

Ferny and his visitor from Isengard now reach Ferny’s house before Merry and the Black Rider. This suggests that Ferny and the Isengarder pass the Black Rider when they leave the Inn. The Black Rider stays there, and Merry returns to find him still standing across the Road from the Inn. Somehow, that doesn’t feel quite right to me: was there a second Black Rider outside, too, that walked home with them? They passed the Nazgûl, and he didn’t join them? They didn’t see him? I’m not certain we have assessed the order of events correctly here: The Black Rider is outside the Inn “calling” to the Ring, and it responds by seeking a means for Frodo to put it on. Ferny and the Isengarder leave the Inn. They have to pass the Black Rider. Does the Isengarder tell the Black Rider what happened at this point, or later? Merry returns from his walk. The Black Rider is still across the street from the Inn. He sees Merry, and Merry follows him.

I can’t help but notice that, had the Commons room emptied any faster, lots of Bree-folk would have found this weird, scary guy standing across the road from their favorite watering-hole.

Now, here’s the biggie:The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien appears to be using British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) for his time for sunrise the following morning. Are we using standard time, which the sun at its zenith at noon, or daylight savings time, as Tolkien appears to have, with the sun at its zenith at 1 o’clock?


Without using daylight savings time, with the sun at its zenith at noon (standard time), here is the rough time-line as it stands right now:

http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/breeEvents-work5.gif


I think we’re going to be forced to use BST (daylight savings time) in order to account for the all the things that happen the next morning. As it is, using standard time, Frodo’s accident happens around a quarter of ten; using daylight savings time, it will happen at a quarter of eleven. (Either of which would further help explain Butterbur’s lack of irritation: not only was he looking forward to hearing the “accident” discussed in his public room for months to come, it was also near the end of the evening for most of his patrons.)

[Gordis]

In the final version, there are about 100 houses of the Big Folk in Bree, and about as many Little Folk. That makes the population around 1200–2000, I expect.
Yes, and in all the drafts published in HOME, there used to be but 50 stone houses. I think Tolkien added extra 50 houses in the final version of the text, and Fonstad (who had the same Tolkien sketch I have posted), extended Bree to the south to accommodate the extra houses.

Yes, I think we must use Tolkien’s sketch-map: it fits the rough time-line – and the published text! – much better.
OK.
Ferny and his visitor from Isengard now reach Ferny’s house before Merry and the Black Rider. This suggests that Ferny and the Isengarder pass the Black Rider when they leave the Inn. The Black Rider stays there, and Merry returns to find him still standing across the Road from the Inn. Somehow, that doesn’t feel quite right to me: was there a second Black Rider outside, too, that walked home with them? They passed the Nazgûl, and he didn’t join them? They didn’t see him? I’m not certain we have assessed the order of events correctly here

The road near the Pony was not completely deserted. Pony was a busy place full of people. Merry, for instance, was staying outside, some customers may be getting out to ahh... gaze at stars after a mug of beer.;) The nazgul didn't want to approach his spies immediately in the lighted space below Pony's windows, but followed quietly after them in 1-2 minutes. It is standard spy technique.
And note: Olmer has proved that Merry was standing by the side entrance (he had to go round the corner to follow the nazgul). So Merry couldn't see Ferny and Isengarder exiting.

I can’t help but notice that, had the Commons room emptied any faster, lots of Bree-folk would have found this weird, scary guy standing across the road from their favorite watering-hole.
Do you think it is easy to see a nazgul in the night shadows? After all, he could simply take off his cloak and be truly and completely invisible. But why go to such lengths? Merry saw the nazgul only because the nazgul moved and movement attracts attention. Were he immobile, he would be undetectable, barring the vague feeling of dread. I guess in this case the nazgul wished to be seen by Merry.

What do you think is wrong in my timeline for 9.45-10.00 that I have posted before, Alcuin?
9.45 Merry returns from stroll, gazes at stars. Frodo has “accident.” The Nazgul (H) is immobile in the shadows, watching the Common room windows from across the street.
9.47 Ferny+Isengarder quietly exit, turn south, Merry pays them no heed - he is still by the door.
9.49 The Nazgul (H) stirs and starts to follow after Ferny+Isengarder; he moves past Merry. (He had been opposite the windows of the common room, thus to the north from Merry and has to go south). His movement is observed by Merry and the Nazgul notices his awareness. The Nazgul lures Merry to follow, thinking to learn something useful from questioning the hobbit, if the Isengarder's report proves uninteresting. So they go south: Ferny and Isengarder are ahead, then the Nazgul, then Merry who has lost the sight of those ahead and falls behind.

10.15 One Black Rider leaves to tell Witch-King Ringbearer is in Bree, other 2 decide to take Merry.Alcuin, I don't believe there was more than one nazgul in Bree at this point (H). I think the others (FI) were outside with the horses. Nazgul H had to go outside to send the messenger, and do so fast. So he left right after Merry swooned.

I think it were the Isengarder and Ferny who were lifting Merry when Nob came. I don't see the nazgul doing the dirty job himself when he was in a hurry and there were two mortal ruffians to order about. It is just second nature for a being used to command others. The ruffians got the order to pick Merry, while the nazgul was gone, but got scared by Nob and dropped him. Unlike the nazgul, Ferny couldn't afford to be accused of murder: he hoped to continue living in Bree after this night's work.

About the horses. The quote you have posted, Alcuin:
Strider: The Black Breath. The Riders must have left their horses outside, and passed back through the South-gate in secret. proves that all the three nazgul horses were outside of Bree this evening, none was keeping company to Bill the Pony after all. I don't believe the nazgul would leave them outside unguarded even for a short while - the horses were too valuable to take such risk. So I believe while the inn was being assaulted by H and I, the horses were in Bree. Another reason: if the nazgul did take the Ring, hasty departure was in order.

When nazgul F left for Andrath, H and I must have planned the night attack between themselves, then H returned on foot to Ferny's and gave orders to the assembled ruffians, then at the appointed time HI most likely rode around Bree and made Harry open the West gate for them to bring the horses inside. While the Inn was under attack, the Gate likely stood open.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Alcuin, I don't believe there was more than one nazgul in Bree at this point (H). I think the others (FI) were outside with the horses. Nazgul H had to go outside to send the messenger, and do so fast. So he left right after Merry swooned.

I think it were the Isengarder and Ferny who were lifting Merry when Nob came. I don't see the nazgul doing the dirty job himself when he was in a hurry and there were two mortal ruffians to order about. It is just second nature for a being used to command others. The ruffians got the order to pick Merry, while the nazgul was gone, but got scared by Nob and dropped him. Unlike the nazgul, Ferny couldn't afford to be accused of murder: he hoped to continue living in Bree after this night's work.

So where were Ferny and the Isengarder exactly when Merry swooned? At Ferny's place? Did the Nazgul stop by to see them on his way outside to send the messenger and commanded them to go back and clean up the mess he left in the road?

[Gordis]

So where were Ferny and the Isengarder exactly when Merry swooned? At Ferny's place? Did the Nazgul stop by to see them on his way outside to send the messenger and commanded them to go back and clean up the mess he left in the road?

I think Ferny and the Isengarder returning from the Pony just reached the hedge of Ferny's house when the nazgul who was following them finally caught up with the pair. They stopped by the hedge. Merry: Anyway, I went, and suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I couldn't hear a word that was said. I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over. Then I felt terrified, and I turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I... I fell over.' We are not told that the interlocutors stood on the opposite sides of the hedge. I believe all three were still on the road. Merry was unable to see them, he was unable to count them, he only heard two voices: the Isengarder's and the nazgul's.

The nazgul became aware of Merry and sent him in a swoon with Black Breath spell. Merry fell.

The Isengarder continued his report, the nazgul became excited and went away in a hurry to find his buddies camping outside the South Gate. Before leaving, he gave the ruffians an order re: Merry. Maybe he told them to kill Merry, maybe he told them to bring him inside the house, but likely he said something ambiguous like "clean up the mess and wait for me". At the moment Merry interested him not at all.

With the nazgul away, Ferny and Isengarder probably argued what to do with Merry. Ferny's reputation was bad, so for him it was dangerous to kill a hobbit right on his own doorstep. It was dangerous also to keep Merry prisoner in his house, for the first house to be searched likely would be his. The Isengarder may have been of the opposite opinion - he was a stranger in Bree. At this time they likely examined the hobbit and found he was one from the Shire group. Anyway, all this took some time, so when they finally decided to carry Merry somewhere, Nob was already there. The ruffians bolted.

[Coffeehouse]

So what new knowledge has this very detailed discussion of place and time given us? (I would have contributed more were it not for my tight weekend=/)

You're ping-theory about the ring and the Nazgûl was very interesting to read Alcuin. Good job;)

[Alcuin]

So what new knowledge has this very detailed discussion of place and time given us?

That’s a very good question, and I’ll answer it first. I have a detailed response to Gordis already written.

I learned these things:

The Nazgûl dropped Merry because keeping him meant that Nob would raise an alarm and rouse the town of Bree. In the confusion, the Ringbearer might escape yet again. To me, that’s a big deal, because it was a loose end I could not place: this is why I began the thread.

Frodo twice felt that there was another will trying to induce him to put on the Ring. That will almost certainly came from the Nazgûl standing across the Road from the Inn, the one whom Merry followed back to Ferny’s house. I have never seen that suggested anywhere else: not on a board, not in a book. I think that’s a big deal.

The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien used British Summer Time (daylight savings time) for his times the following morning. As far as I know, that has never before been discovered. I think he is correct, and I think Gordis (who can speak for herself on this) thinks so, too. For scholars, that’s actually a very big deal.

CAB and Olmer argued that Bree is too big in the map Karen Fonstad made. Fonstad (rest her soul) did great work on Tolkien’s maps, but Gordis located what appears to be the working sketch, and it suggests that it was no farther to the West gate than to the South gate (and Ferny’s house). Those distances make all the difference in sketching out the time, and I think I now know that Fonstad’s map is inaccurate. I also learned (thanks to Olmer) there is almost certainly a side door to the Prancing Pony, and without mentioning that there was a side door, Tolkien used it in the published text.


In addition, there are three other things that have emerged:

I knew but am reminded that there were three Nazgûl at Bree when the evening began, and that the third, the messenger sent to the Witch-king at Andrath, was waylaid sometime in the night by the Dúnedain, who were unquestionably assigned the difficult and dangerous task of guarding the Greenway by Aragorn. This means that the Dúnedain of the North were still a force to be reckoned with in their own territory; that despite their confrontation with all the Nazgûl at Sarn Ford several days before, they had not lost heart; that Aragorn was very much in charge of the Rangers (as befits a king or chieftain); and that he was an experienced commander in his own right, having set or ordered an ambuscade in just the right place to upset the plans of his enemies.

I always believed the Nazgûl had beaten the hobbits to Bree. That was my bias, but “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS confirms it. I don’t think everyone knew that going into the conversation.

Finally, Attalus and The Dread Pirate Roberts are interested in the events that follow into the morning: when the Nazgûl actually attacked, and then the departure of Strider and the hobbits from Bree. I hope they will follow up on these things.

[Alcuin]

Olmer has proved that Merry was standing by the side entrance (he had to go round the corner to follow the nazgul). So Merry couldn't see Ferny and Isengarder exiting.

“Proved” is such a strong word; “demonstrated”, certainly. I agree: I certainly think he is correct. And that probably means Tolkien sketched a floorplan for the Prancing Pony, likely very similar to the one that Fonstad shows on her page of maps for Bree.


What do you think is wrong in my timeline for 9.45-10.00 that I have posted before, Alcuin?

I don’t see anything wrong with it. It fits into the current rough time-line like a hand in a custom glove.


Alcuin, I don't believe there was more than one nazgul in Bree at this point (H). I think the others (FI) were outside with the horses. Nazgul H had to go outside to send the messenger, and do so fast. So he left right after Merry swooned.

I would agree with you except for the clear statement of the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS. But whether there were two or three in town or out doesn’t matter, I think: the messenger left immediately, that much is clear, leaving two Nazgûl in Bree to seize Merry, and they failed to do that. That’s the text we have to use for the off-stage movements and actions of the Nazgûl.



I think it were the Isengarder and Ferny who were lifting Merry when Nob came. I don't see the nazgul doing the dirty job himself when he was in a hurry and there were two mortal ruffians to order about. It is just second nature for a being used to command others. The ruffians got the order to pick Merry, while the nazgul was gone, but got scared by Nob and dropped him. Unlike the nazgul, Ferny couldn't afford to be accused of murder: he hoped to continue living in Bree after this night's work.

I don’t have a problem with that. I agree that the two Nazgûl probably saw it beneath them to haul bodies if there were others around whom they could command to do their bidding. It isn’t what the text says in “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS. Whatever we do has to match the published texts, The Fellowship of the Ring and as much of “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS as we can discern; otherwise, this is just an exercise in fanfic.

It isn’t important until we get to the raid on the Inn. That, I believe, cannot be assigned to “servants of the Ringwraiths,” as some have done (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bree). It appears to me clearly contrary both to the published text and to the author’s intentions.

But as for whether it was the Nazgûl lifting Merry, or one Nazgûl and Ferny (or the Isengarder), or Ferny and the Isengarder under the direction of the two remaining Nazgûl as “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS might be interpreted (with a stretch), I don’t care. Two Nazgûl were responsible for the decision to take him, and together they were responsible for the decision to leave him.


nazgul ... made Harry open the West gate for them to bring the horses inside. While the Inn was under attack, the Gate likely stood open.

The Nazgûl almost certainly kept their horses near the South Gate, near Ferny’s house. It was less likely anyone would see the horses or the Nazgûl, and it was much closer to the place their spies were located. The Dwarves in the Inn were headed west, and the Greenway was at the West gate: the South-gate was likely to have less traffic on it that night. Moreover, the Ringbearer was headed east, to Rivendell. There is no reason for the Ringwraiths to keep their horses at the West Gate. Besides, Ferny’s house was the last next to the gate, which implies that Ferny had some regular means to pass in and out quietly.

Whether the West gate stood open or not during the attack on the Inn, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t doubt it.


We are not told that the interlocutors stood on the opposite sides of the hedge.

Fair enough. Merry told his friends that he “heard voices by the hedge”. I’m ok with that either way, but I suppose it makes sense that they were standing in the Road beside the hedge. On the other hand, if he sneaked up on Ferny or the Isengarder talking to a Nazgûl, then it also makes sense that the Black Breath came from a second Nazgûl who caught him eavesdropping. It makes no difference in the rough time-line.

[Alcuin]

Once again, The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien appears to be using British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) for his time for sunrise the following morning. Are we using standard time, which the sun at its zenith at noon, or daylight savings time, as Tolkien appears to have, with the sun at its zenith at 1 o’clock?
If I leave the rough time-line as is, on standard time, the hobbits arrive in Bree around 7 PM and Strider barricades the parlor around 11 PM. If I use British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) to match the times published in The Fellowship of the Ring, everything gets pushed back one hour.

What is the consensus of the Entmoot on this?

[Valandil]

I don't know - so I'm very neutral.

But since you're at it, you ought to adjust the date for correct sunset, etc. September 29 & 30 on the Shire Calendar (as recorded) would be more like September 20 & 21 - or September 21 & 22, on our modern calendar.

[Alcuin]

I don't know - so I'm very neutral.

But since you're at it, you ought to adjust the date for correct sunset, etc. September 29 & 30 on the Shire Calendar (as recorded) would be more like September 20 & 21 - or September 21 & 22, on our modern calendar.

Okay. Good point. Thank you. If you don’t mind, what method did you use to determine the difference in dates?

What about British Summer Time / Daylight Savings Time?

[Valandil]

Appendix D - with a little bit more information in HoME 12.

Mid-year's Day comes at the summer solstice. That would make Yule at the winter solstice, and presumably the vernal equinox at either March 30 (last day of March - which has 30 days in this calendar) or April 1 - and the autumnal equinox on either September 30 or October 1. Our autumnal equinox is normally on September 22 - so we should subtract about 8 or 9 days, I think. Or - you could work it from the Yule or Mid-Year, to make sure of which it is. I think I've done the exercise, but don't exactly remember the results. :)

As for the 'British Summer Time / Daylight Savings Time - I doubt it would be used in Third Age Middle Earth, since those were much more modern inventions. Although it's possible that JRRT would have taken note of the time of sunrise and forgotten to make the one hour adjustment.

[Gordis]

I firmly believe that our only consideration must be the conformity of different possibilities we have with the published LOTR text.

What are our possibilities?

London September 21 without BST
05:11 civil twilight (dawn)
05:44 apparent sunrise

London September 21 with BST :
06:11 civil twilight (dawn)
06:44 apparent sunrise

London September 30 without BST
05:26 civil twilight (dawn)
05:59 apparent sunrise

London September 30 with BST
06:26 civil twilight (dawn)
06:59 apparent sunrise

Our quotes:

'In any case we must be called at dawn,' said Frodo. 'We must get off as early as possible. Breakfast at six-thirty, please.'

Frodo: 'I shan't be doing anything of the sort again, Mr. Butterbur, I promise you. And now I think I'll be getting to bed. We shall be making an early start. Will you see that our ponies are ready by eight o'clock?'

OK, the first quote implies that dawn should be shortly before 06.30.
It fits both London September 21 with BST (06:11) and London September 30 with BST (06:26), but it doesn't fit times without BST.
Second quote implies that sunrise was not too long before 8, most likely at 7.

More quotes:

[First day (Sept 24) on the road:] The morning came, pale and clammy. Frodo woke up first […]‘Wake up, hobbits!’ he cried. It’s a beautiful morning.’
‘What’s beautiful about it?’ said Pippin, peering over the edge of his blanket with one eye. ‘Sam! Gel breakfast ready for half-past nine![…]
Frodo stripped the blankets from Pippin and rolled him over, and then walked off to the edge of the wood. Away eastward the sun was rising red out of the mists that lay thick on the world.[…]
When their breakfast was over, and their packs all trussed up again, it was after ten o’clock, and the day was beginning to turn fine and hot.
Hmm… even if sunrise was at seven, it still took the hobbits 3 hours to finish eating and get going. They still thought it was a pleasure-trip, no doubt. Pity ol' Khamul missed this pleasant breakfast.:p

[Departure from Crickhollow Sept 26:]
Frodo woke suddenly. It was still dark in the room. Merry was standing there with a candle in one hand, and banging on the door with the other. ‘All right! What is it?’ said Frodo, still shaken and bewildered.
‘What is it!’ cried Merry. ‘It is time to get up. It is half past four and very foggy.
Soon after six o’clock the five hobbits were ready to start. Fatty Bolger was still yawning. […]The leaves of trees were glistening, and every twig was dripping; the grass was grey with cold dew. Everything was still, and far-away noises seemed near and clear: fowls chattering in a yard, someone closing a door of a distant house.[…] soon they were riding off into the mist, which seemed to open reluctantly before them and close forbiddingly behind them. After riding for about an hour, slowly and without talking, they saw the Hedge looming suddenly ahead. It was tall and netted over with silver cobwebs.
[…]Suddenly they came out of the trees and found themselves in a wide circular space. There was sky above them, blue and clear to their surprise, for down under the Forest-roof they had not been able to see the rising morning and the lifting of the mist. The sun was not, however, high enough yet to shine down into the clearing . […]The hobbits felt encouraged, and looked up hopefully at the broadening daylight in the sky.
OK, so, the hobbits got up before dawn at 4:30, and although they were in a hurry it took them 1,5 hours (!) to get ready to start. Lazy-bones! They started at about 6:05 and it seems like it was dawn, but not yet sunrise. The sunrise seemed to occur after they entered the forest an hour later, at 7however the sunrise might have been concealed by mist. Looks like again the times without BST do not agree with the text, as then the sunrise would occur before the hobbits start at 6. It was clearly not the case.

After the Barrow, Sept 29: "It was still fairly early by the sun, something between nine and ten, and the hobbits turned their minds to food."

[Departure from Bree, Sept 30]:
[Frodo] opened his eyes, and heard a cock crowing lustily in the inn-yard. Strider had drawn the curtains and pushed back the shutters with a clang. The first grey light of day was in the room, and a cold air was coming through the open window. As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their bedrooms. […]Strider immediately went to fetch the landlord. […]
'We will leave at once,' [said Strider.…] Never mind about breakfast: a drink and a bite standing will have to do. We shall be packed in a few minutes […]
In the end there was more than three hours' delay.[…] It was close on ten o'clock before they at last got off.

So, 10-3=7 Strider wished " to leave at once" at 7. The examination of the rooms couldn't have taken more than a few minutes, so likely they got up around 6.30 - at first grey light. Again all points to London September 30 time with BST: 06:26 civil twilight (dawn)

I believe Tolkien had simply consulted the Almanac he had, without any calculations. So his time is London September 30 with BST (dawn:6:26, sunrise:6:59). Neither does it seem that he had recalculated the difference between the Shire calendar and normal one.

Remember, at the time Tolkien was still writing a children's story, a sequel to the Hobbit, with rather remote connection to his Legendarium - he wouldn't bother to calculate times as thoroughly as he would have done by the end of the tale. And later on no exact times are given at all - only "at dawn", "at sunrise", "by midday" etc. After Bree the Hobbits left civilized places similar to XIX century England and firmly entered Middle-Ages.

[Gordis]

No, I was being unfair to Tolkien. When he used the 1941 Almanac, he did take away the extra hour of summer time, he didn't make this silly mistake to unconsciously introduce DST to Middle-Earth. But in 1940-1945 (WWII) Britain had two hours (!) added to GMT. Read
THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Double_Summer_Time#United_Kingdom):
During World War II, Britain retained the hour's advance on GMT at the start of the winter of 1940 and continued to advance the clocks by an extra hour during the summers until July 1945. During these summers Britain was thus 2 hours ahead of GMT and operating on British Double Summer Time (BDST). The clocks were reverted to GMT at the end of the summer of 1945. In 1947 the clocks were advanced by one hour twice during the spring and put back twice during the autumn so that Britain was on BDST during the height of the summer.
So Tolkien must have taken away one hour that was added only in summer but he had left another extra hour of BDST - this hour was being applied all year round.

So, ME seems one hour in advance to GMT London time all year round.

I believe it solves the riddle.:)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Gordis, that is an awesome find.

Great work by everyone here.

Something else I've learned in this thread is that it IS possible to have an in-depth collaborative Tolkien research project on a board without anyone getting self-righteous and smarmy. Entmoot is the only board I've ever seen this measure of success and cooperation on. This has already become my primary Tolkien board; I'm considering making it my only Tolkien board primarily because of the cooperative attitude of the people here.

[Coffeehouse]

Gordis, that is an awesome find.

Great work by everyone here.

Something else I've learned in this thread is that it IS possible to have an in-depth collaborative Tolkien research project on a board without anyone getting self-righteous and smarmy. Entmoot is the only board I've ever seen this measure of success and cooperation on. This has already become my primary Tolkien board; I'm considering making it my only Tolkien board primarily because of the cooperative attitude of the people here.

Yeah, that is a neat find. I never knew the British used double summer time in that period!

The discussions about the Tolkien world here are definitely very civil and very construcive at least from my point of view. I don't know of any other Tolkien board (this is the only internet board I have used, use and will ever use! and that says something about Entmoot worthiness;) It's very diverse:)) but surely nothing beats this!:p

I think what's pretty clear by the numerous interesting facts that have been established on this thread, is that the depth of Tolkien's Middle Earth enthusiasm and genious simply knows no limits. Just when you think there's a bottom there's yet more to discover!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Found while looking for other information in HoME VI:

There was nothing omitted that they could wish for, so they did
not need to ring the bell. So refreshed and encouraged did they
feel at the end of their supper (about 55 minutes steady going, not
hindered by unnecessary talk) that they decided to join the
company.


It may have already been mentioned but I haven't reviewed the entire thread to check.

[Alcuin]

Found while looking for other information in HoME VI:There was nothing omitted that they could wish for, so they did
not need to ring the bell. So refreshed and encouraged did they
feel at the end of their supper (about 55 minutes steady going, not
hindered by unnecessary talk) that they decided to join the
company. It may have already been mentioned but I haven't reviewed the entire thread to check.That passage became, “about three quarters of an hour’s steady going,” in the published version.

Let us use caution including the draft versions of the tale for more than indications and intentions. If we use them as hard-and-fast guides to the action in the final telling – particularly in the timing or order of events – then we shall surely re-incorporate errors that Tolkien eliminated as he worked through the story. It isn’t that there isn’t useful information in them (such as the sketch-map of Bree), but I strongly believe a statement of time in a draft version should only be retained if it still fits (or adequately explains) the course of events in the published story.

The draft passage does reveal one thing: Tolkien was tracking finer gradations of time than quarter-hours when he wrote the draft! He might have been tracking only quarter-hours at the end, but “about 55 minutes steady going” is an awfully precise “about”.


The Dread Pirate Roberts and Gordis, I doff my hat to you both on the British Summer Time and British Double Summer Time. That such an oddity should arise in the writing is, well, rather odd: Tolkien was aware of the difference in hours from noon and attempted to correct it, but by accident, he only corrected half the error! That is surely worthy of an article in one of the scholarly journals!

I take it that the consensus is that we should move the times posted in the rough time-line forward by one hour, then?

The next obvious question goes beyond Bree. Was there not also an extra hour added to Greenwich Mean Time during the winter months of World War II? (In other words, one extra hour added all year long?) And if there were, did Tolkien accidentally retain that one extra hour during the winter months in all his other times as well? In other words, if he corrected for the two-hour difference in the summer months by moving back only one hour, forgetting the extra hour, did he also forget to remove that extra hour from the winter months as well?

And finally – if the rest of Middle-earth was one hour ahead, was Lórien still on standard time? :D

[Gordis]

The Dread Pirate Roberts and Gordis, I doff my hat to you both on the British Summer Time and British Double Summer Time. That such an oddity should arise in the writing is, well, rather odd: Tolkien was aware of the difference in hours from noon and attempted to correct it, but by accident, he only corrected half the error! That is surely worthy of an article in one of the scholarly journals!
Thanks, Alcuin and others as well.
Unfortunately, I would have been surer of my theory if I knew that Tolkien indeed used the Almanack for 1941-42 while writing the Prancing Pony chapter. It seems most of it had been written before it, in 1938-39. However, in the drafts the quotes mentioning exact times seem to be absent. Maybe Tolkien introduced these mentions later, while preparing the chapter for publication.

I take it that the consensus is that we should move the times posted in the rough time-line forward by one hour, then?
I vote for it.

The next obvious question goes beyond Bree. Was there not also an extra hour added to Greenwich Mean Time during the winter months of World War II? (In other words, one extra hour added all year long?)
Yes, it was so - one hour was added all year long, see my quote from Wiki. No doubt, as the extra hour was there for 6 years winter and summer alike, everyone got used to it and forgot about its existence. Only the extra hour that is added every spring feels like a sore thumb to everyone. This one is hard to forget.;) For these six years London sort of moved into the next time-zone.

And if there were, did Tolkien accidentally retain that one extra hour during the winter months in all his other times as well? In other words, if he corrected for the two-hour difference in the summer months by moving back only one hour, forgetting the extra hour, did he also forget to remove that extra hour from the winter months as well?I think so.

And finally – if the rest of Middle-earth was one hour ahead, was Lórien still on standard time?
Lorien was on VST = "Valinor standard time":D

[Alcuin]

I just lined up Tolkien’s Shire Reckoning with the calendars for 1941 and 2009. (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/LineUpCalendars.htm) It isn’t elegant: just brute force.

“29 September” is “29 Halimath” in Shire Reckoning. That day in the year, that far from Solstice, corresponds to 20 September 1941, or 19 September 2009. Autumnal Equinox would fall two days later, on 2 Winterfilth (autumnal equinox in London was on September 23, 1941 at 11:33 AM and will be Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:19 PM), which would correspond to October 2 in the story. Tolkien takes no note of the first day of autumn in the published text.

The times for sunset and twilight for 19 September 2009 will be 18:07 - Sunset
18:40 - Civil Twilight End
19:20 - Nautical Twilight End
20:02 - Astronomical Twilight End

I cannot find the twilight times for 20 September 1941. If I use the same lengths of time in minutes as for 2009, however, and the time for sunset in 1941, and allowing for Tolkien’s extra hour, I get 19:04 - Sunset
19:37 - Civil Twilight End
20:17 - Nautical Twilight End
20:59 - Astronomical Twilight End

Here is the latest version of the rough time-line based on 20 September 1941 and retaining the extra hour that Tolkien forgot during wartime:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/breeEvents-work6.gif

The only extra interesting thing about this version of the time-line is that Merry’s near-miss with the Nazgûl, and his bursting into the parlor, now take place right around midnight.

[Alcuin]

Already found an error. Took my solstice for 1941 from another source; the source The Dread Pirate Roberts located says “June Solstice is on Saturday, June 21, 1941 at 9:33 PM in London. (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=136&month=6&year=1941&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1)”

Realigned calendars, (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/LineUpCalendars-fixed.htm) moved everything back one day to match 19 September 1941. Sunset is 7:07 PM local time, including Tolkien’s extra wartime hour. Move all times forward 3 minutes. (Not a good way to estimate dusk, but it’s a “rough” time-line – very rough, it seems.) Civil twilight now ends around 7:40 PM. Moved all the times forward 15 minutes: Merry now has his little encounter with the Nazgûl at Bill Ferny’s house about midnight, and comes bolting home sometime afterwards.

Somehow, I find that appropriate. However, since it is supposed to be midnight, I wonder why Tolkien didn’t mention that it was around midnight – he frequently takes note of such things.

Another thing to consider is the reflections of CAB and Attalus on people’s sleeping habits: would all this uproar have kept the local townsfolk awake? And might Nob’s yelling have taken place around that time that the townsfolk might have been stirring in the middle of the night anyway, making it all that more imperative that whomever was lifting Merry drop him and slip away?

Here is the corrected, latest version of the rough time-line:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/breeEvents-work6-1.gif

OK – what I left out or failed to correct? Are there any more errors or omissions?

[Gordis]

Seems fine to me. Great job, Alcuin. :) I will read it more attentively in the evening, I have to run now. - Gordis

[Gordis]

A piece of bad (?) news: in the "Long-expected party" the times are GMT without extra hour: At other times there were merely lots of people eating and drinking - continuously from elevenses until six-thirty, when the fireworks started.LOTR, Ch.1
Naturally the fireworks started after sunset.

The sunset for September 22 2009 is 5:59PM without BST
The sunset for September 12 2009 is 6:22PM without BST

Now in the draft written around 1938, before the application of BDST, the time of firewoks was 6 PM, later it was corrected to 6.30.
I guess this change was due to the fact that Tolkien had calculated the difference between Shire calendar and normal calendar.

Uh-oh...

[Alcuin]

The calculations in the current rough time-line are for London, England, 84 days after Mid-Year’s Day (solstice). That matches the date in Shire Reckoning, 29 “September” (Halimath), which corresponds to 19 September in the Gregorian Calendar. I used sunset for 1941, but the length of twilight for 2009 because I have not yet found twilight hours for 1941. The error introduced must be small (minutes), but I cannot quantify it right now.

It looks as if Tolkien first set the time for Bilbo’s birthday party using the Gregorian Calendar, and then switched to his own Shire Reckoning.

It also appears that he intended to set all the times in standard time. He moved the time back an hour for the Birthday Party to standard time; it looks as if he just forgot the extra hour from BDST for Bree. If that’s the situation – that he correctly adjusted for British Summer Time by removing the extra hour, but incorrectly adjusted for British Double Summer Time by removing only one hour instead of two – I think this may be a widespread error in Lord of the Rings. At any rate, it has possibilities for further exploration, and for scholars, it has to be a big deal if it’s true.

And since I think this is a uniquely new observation, I believe we can safely say, You read it first here at Entmoot. Congratulations to you, Gordis, and to The Dread Pirate Roberts.

-|-

If Tolkien forgot to remove the second, extra hour from BDST, but BDST ended after the war, I wonder if there are times Tolkien intended to be standard times in, say, The Return of the King that once again do not have the extra hour, since they were written in the late 1940s and early 1950s? Anyone up for starting a thread for Tolkien Time? We might find there is Tolkien Standard Time at the beginning and end of The Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien Daylight Time in the middle with the extra hour from BDST carried over into it.

[Gordis]

Well, Alcuin - I think your scheme is as good as it may be given the evidence we have.

Personally I only disagree on the number of nazgul during Merry's capture: I think there was but one in Bree at the moment. Apart from what I have said earlier, I have found the draft version in HOME 7:
This story now returns to the original version (VI.161-2), according to which the Rider went eastwards through the village and stopped at Bill Ferney's house (whereas in the 'third phase' version, VI.353-4, it went in the other direction to the West-gate); but it differs from FR (p. 185) in that when Merry was about to bolt back to the inn 'another black shape rose up before me - coming down the Road from the other gate - and ... and I fell over.'
So Tolkien did play with the idea of a second nazgul by Ferny's house, but has dropped it.

But anyway, the exact number of the Black riders by Ferny's doesn't affect the timeline at all. Well done, Alcuin!:)

[Gordis]

OK, I have posted my new thread
The Hunt for the Ring (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15033)
All welcome!;)