Emblem of Minas Morgul

[Valandil]

As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:

"...a Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death..."

It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

[Gordis]

It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.
They did because they found the Moon appropriate. ;) Also - are you sure it were the nazgul who changed the name of the fortress, not the Gondorians?
Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul.
For all we know, the nazgul could have continued to call it "M.Ithil" for a long time...

[Coffeehouse]

As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:



It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

Hey that's a keen observation! It does make sense.

[Gordis]

But what was the question, Val? :)

[Valandil]

Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.

Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place! :p

[Gordis]

But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place! :p And there were HUGE renovations that the lax Gondorian government never attempted in two thousand years: new Gate (exquisitely shaped like a grinning mouth), new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.:cool:

[Coffeehouse]

Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.

Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place! :p

The borrowed moon-theory makes even more sense if you think about the nature of Mordor culture: it does create and innovate new things, it simply twists and changes them in its own dark way.

So you wouldn't expect the mangled moon symbol of Minas Morgul to be an original invention of the Nazgûl inspired by some lunar affinity, but an adoption of something already present in former Minas Ithil yet which became twisted to due to decaying and dark nature of Mordor=)

So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?

[Gordis]

So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?

Sometime after TA 2002 but before 2043, most likely straight away after the city was captured. Here are the quotes:
Elrond: And on a time evil things came forth, and they took Minas Ithil and abode in it, and they made it into a place of dread; and it is called Minas Morgul, the Tower of Sorcery. Then Minas Anor was named anew Minas Tirith, the Tower of Guard -"Council of Elrond"

Gandalf: for [Sauron] took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.-"The Palantir"

2002 Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul. - "Tale of Years"

Minas Ithil [the nazgul] took in 2002, and captured the palantÃ*r of the tower. They were not expelled while the Third Age lasted; and Minas Ithil became a place of fear, and was renamed Minas Morgul. -"App. A"

When Eärnur received the crown in 2043 the King of Minas Morgul challenged him to single combat- "App A"

[Alcuin]

And there were HUGE renovations...: new Gate..., new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.:cool:What do you suppose they served for the Blue Plate Special? :eek:

The idea of riding up a glass elevator inside the Tower... like in a Hyatt...

[Gordis]

What do you suppose they served for the Blue Plate Special? :eek:

The idea of riding up a glass elevator inside the Tower... like in a Hyatt...
;)
If you look for a glass elevator anywhere in ME, the best chance to find it would be in Minas Morgul.:D

[GrayMouser]

Yeah, wonder which side changed the name, and how did it come to be adopted by both?

[Rían]

Did they print up new notepaper, or just cross out the old name and write in the new one?

[Attalus]

I suspect that "Minas Morgul" was applied from both sides. "Tower of Sorcery" would be applicable to each.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.

[Coffeehouse]

True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state;)

[Gordis]

True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state;)

There is nothing demented about the nazgul.:p They did use the symbol of the Moon but deliberately modified it. Now it is the "Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death."

[Coffeehouse]

There is nothing demented about the nazgul.:p They did use the symbol of the Moon but deliberately modified it. Now it is the "Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death."

Well they certainly do have a progressive condition of deteriorated cognitive functions with telling signs of emotional apathy. I.e. dementia;)

And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.

[Gordis]

Well they certainly do have a progressive condition of deteriorated cognitive functions with telling signs of emotional apathy. I.e. dementia;)

And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.

You have no base for your diagnosis, dear Doctor. Especially where do you see "emotional aphaty"? :p
I guess the sigil of the disfigured moon was very artistic, transforming the silly plain face of the full moon into something frightening.;)

[Coffeehouse]

Doctor indeed:p Symptoms: In the hunt for the ring the Nazgûl display a series of actions that would suggest some seriously reduced cognitive functions. In the course of their hunt there are symptoms of: a lack of commitment in crucial situations, terrible decision-making, poor tactical execution and reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight.

The Nazgûl also seem to have long-term strains such apathy to emotional and physical well-being and a lack of interest all-together in physical things (excepting the Ring)

I wouldn't count on much artistic creativity in their sad state. The poor Nazgûl may have simply thought they were making nice reproductions of the Tower of the Moon banners. Instead when they were sitting huddled in a dimly lit room in their confused state of mind and drawing on each otheir banner (which the Witch-King had bartered for in a tax-free shop down in Harad) the delusional and malicious influences of the Dark Lord Sauron coerced their minds and instead they sub-conciously drew mangled faces on their pretty moons:p

[Attalus]

Doctor indeed:p Symptoms: In the hunt for the ring the Nazgûl display a series of actions that would suggest some seriously reduced cognitive functions. In the course of their hunt there are symptoms of: a lack of commitment in crucial situations, terrible decision-making, poor tactical execution and reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight.

The Nazgûl also seem to have long-term strains such apathy to emotional and physical well-being and a lack of interest all-together in physical things (excepting the Ring)

QFT. I doubt that enough remained of freedom and humanity in the Nazgul for any artistic endeavor. The "Stained Moon" emblem could just as well be the work of a Black Numenorean.

[Gordis]

Doctor indeed:p Symptoms: In the hunt for the ring the Nazgûl display a series of actions that would suggest some seriously reduced cognitive functions. In the course of their hunt there are symptoms of: a lack of commitment in crucial situations, terrible decision-making, poor tactical execution and reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight.
Lack of commitment to their task I would accept - but it is hardly a sign of dementia. Or so I hope, writing this banter instead of doing my work.:D

Terrible decision-making - well, not really. They followed orders and went to consult the WK whenever they met a problem. Most likely they learned by bitter experience not to take too much responsibilty upon themselves, but leave it to the Captain. Don't forget, at the end the Captain successfuly talked the enraged Sauron out of punishing them.;)

Reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight is a drawback of living in the Spirit World. It was balanced by their increased cognitive abilities at night and extra-senses they had.

The Nazgûl also seem to have long-term strains such apathy to emotional and physical well-being and a lack of interest all-together in physical things (excepting the Ring)
Definitely no. Their physical well-being was paramount on their minds, far more important to them than any Rings. Emotions they also displayed (the slashed bolsters are witnesses) and sense of humor: remember how they laughed at Frodo at the Ford.

I wouldn't count on much artistic creativity in their sad state. The poor Nazgûl may have simply thought they were making nice reproductions of the Tower of the Moon banners. Instead when they were sitting huddled in a dimly lit room in their confused state of mind and drawing on each otheir banner (which the Witch-King had bartered for in a tax-free shop down in Harad) the delusional and malicious influences of the Dark Lord Sauron coerced their minds and instead they sub-conciously drew mangled faces on their pretty moons:p That is simply ridiculous...

[Coffeehouse]

Lack of commitment to their task I would accept - but it is hardly a sign of dementia. Or so I hope, writing this banter instead of doing my work.:D

Terrible decision-making - well, not really. They followed orders and went to consult the WK whenever they met a problem. Most likely they learned by bitter experience not to take too much responsibilty upon themselves, but leave it to the Captain. Don't forget, at the end the Captain successfuly talked the enraged Sauron out of punishing them.;)

Reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight is a drawback of living in the Spirit World. It was balanced by their increased cognitive abilities at night and extra-senses they had.

Definitely no. Their physical well-being was paramount on their minds, far more important to them than any Rings. Emotions they also displayed (the slashed bolsters are witnesses) and sense of humor: remember how they laughed at Frodo at the Ford.

That is simply ridiculous...

Just as Attalus points out in the 'Eye of Sauron' thread the Nazgûl blundered around just a bit too much. I agree with him, the Hunt for the RIng only reinforces that perception and neatly agrees with the symptoms I raised in my last post. The cognitive abilities of the Nazgûl in the sunlight, a regression of the optimal, or if you will, a progressive reduction, are there as you just agreed. Particularly the poor tactical executions gives pause, sunlight or not.

Now, the artistic flair of the Nazgûl;), although it may sound ridiculous in the silly words I used:rolleyes:, it isn't ridiculous per se. I don't think they had much of it.

The notion that the Nazgûl weren't thinking straight and had some heavy Sauron-induced inhibitions on their artistic abilities is right up the alley with everything else evil stirring in Mordor. There's as much involuntary mangling in the malice of Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr as there as voluntary. Sauron himself reached a stage in the latter parts of his 'life' where even he could not alter the evil of himself, and thus could not appear fair. Instead he had to settle for second best, shrowding his black tower in a permanent shadow.

But I'm off! Wish u all a good night=)

[GrayMouser]

Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.

Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs.

[Gordis]

Just as Attalus points out in the 'Eye of Sauron' thread the Nazgûl blundered around just a bit too much. I agree with him, the Hunt for the RIng only reinforces that perception and neatly agrees with the symptoms I raised in my last post. The cognitive abilities of the Nazgûl in the sunlight, a regression of the optimal, or if you will, a progressive reduction, are there as you just agreed. Particularly the poor tactical executions gives pause, sunlight or not.
What would you expect if all this was done for story-external reasons?
Writing the "sequel to the Hobbit" Tolkien wanted the heroes to be in grave peril all the time but to get through alive and well. At the time, the author
was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character. When logically he was being compelled to do in one of the hobbits (Odo, a precursor of Fatty who was supposed to be captured at Crickhollow), he just dropped the whole plotline. Thus inevitably the nazgul come out as very ineffectual and very kind - not chopping off a single head in the whole FOTR.

And take the delay between the escape by the Ferry and the attack on Crickhollow - 4-5 days, when realistically the nazgul could have been there the next night. The only reasn is that for literary puropses Tolkien wanted the attack on Crickhollow to occur the same night as the attack on the inn at Bree. As a result, poor Khamul's reputation suffered: the excuses and explanations given in the Hunt for such a delay sound lame.

Now, the artistic flair of the Nazgûl;), although it may sound ridiculous in the silly words I used:rolleyes:, it isn't ridiculous per se. I don't think they had much of it.Sorry for using the word "ridiculous". In fact this discussion is simply inapplicable to the banner. It stands to reason that the nazgul wanted it to be menacing, frightening.
Another matter if you wish to discuss the scenery in the Morgul vale: all these meadows of white flowers and evil-looking statues etc.: was it to frighten the unwanted intruders or was it the nazgul vision of beauty? Here there could be a fine discussion, I believe.

The notion that the Nazgûl weren't thinking straight and had some heavy Sauron-induced inhibitions on their artistic abilities is right up the alley with everything else evil stirring in Mordor. There's as much involuntary mangling in the malice of Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr as there as voluntary. Sauron himself reached a stage in the latter parts of his 'life' where even he could not alter the evil of himself, and thus could not appear fair. Instead he had to settle for second best, shrowding his black tower in a permanent shadow.
Yes, exactly along those lines...

Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs. At first, in the drafts, Tolkien had an "orkish" name for M.Morgul - "Dushgoi", as "Lugburz" stood for Barad Dur. But Dushgoi was later abandoned.

[Attalus]

What would you expect if all this was done for story-external reasons?
Writing the "sequel to the Hobbit" Tolkien wanted the heroes to be in grave peril all the time but to get through alive and well. At the time, the author
was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character. When logically he was being compelled to do in one of the hobbits (Odo, a precursor of Fatty who was supposed to be captured at Crickhollow), he just dropped the whole plotline. Thus inevitably the nazgul come out as very ineffectual and very kind - not chopping off a single head in the whole FOTR.


This is venturing upon mind-reading. As I have repeatedly posted, it is just as convincing to believe that the Nazgul are intended to be overrated: 1) unable to find the Ring, which, supposedly "draws them," under their very noses, assuming they still possess those useful appendages; 2) five fought off by Aragorn with some dubious Hobbit-help, with just a torch. There has been much speculation on other Forums about whether Aragorn was otherwise armed than with broken Narsil. I cannot believe he would venture forth into the Wild without something else, but there is nothing in the Canon to support this supposition. 3) Fought off by Gandalf, all alone; 4) Missed the Ring when it went right by Minas Morgul 5) it is repeatedly stressed that their greatest weapon is fear, an uncertain weapon at best. I could go on, and I suspect will.

[Gordis]

This is venturing upon mind-reading.
Not at all. It is clearly visible from the drafts of the Fellowship (Home 6-7).

There were much altered timelines for the hobbits' and Gandalf's movements, but the Black riders appeared when it was necessary for the narrative, not when it was logical for them to appear: he also noted here that the attack on Crickhollow should be told on the night of The Prancing Pony (whence the 'doubled' opening of FR Chapter 11, 'A Knife in the Dark').- HOME 7 "Gandalf's delay"
As the story stood in that text, Gandalf came to Crickhollow and routed the Riders on the night of Monday 26 September, the first night spent by the hobbits in the house of Tom Bombadil, and the account of the attack on Crickhollow was introduced as a short separate narrative in the body of Chapter VII (see VI.303 - 4, 328). But this had now been changed, and the attack by the Riders delayed by three days, with the postponement of Gandalf's coming to Bree.-ibid
That's how it was being constructed. The result was detrimental for Khamul's character who now appeared waiting for several days before attacking Crickhollow, but the change was not done for this purpose, it was mere drawback.

The "Hunt for the Ring" appeared later, when the narrative had been completed and published, it only tried to explain what the nazgul were doing during the allotted time intervals - and unfortunately these explanations were sometimes quite lame.

Why was the plot with a captured hobbit abandoned? It is not a speculation, here is the quote: In the margin of the 'fourth phase' version of the attack on Crickhollow (p. 55) my father later noted: "Omit, or bring into line with old version (in middle of Chapter VII). Ham cannot be captured (Black Riders would obviously kill him." -HOME 7 "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf and Saruman" Tolkien didn't want a hobbit killed. I suppose he didn't yet anticipate rivers of blood that would flow in the TT and ROTK.

As I have repeatedly posted, it is just as convincing to believe that the Nazgul are intended to be overrated:
Not if you are familiar with how it was actually being written (Home 6-8). I know, Tolkien was a genius, but it is very hard to write in such a confusing, messy way, "letting the story to write itself". It leads to numerous plot-holes, and the enemies start to appear ... hmm.. enigmatic, if not outright stupid. Tolkien simply rarely thought and plotted from their point of view - and it shows.

2) five fought off by Aragorn with some dubious Hobbit-help, with just a torch.
This, I would say, is the only episode convincingly explained by the Hunt for the Ring in RC. Aragorn was not a main factor - Frodo's Barrow-blade was.

There has been much speculation on other Forums about whether Aragorn was otherwise armed than with broken Narsil.
Needless discussion: Aragorn had no other blade, as told by Tolkien himself in the letter #210 about the Weathertop scene:
Strider does not 'Whip out a sword' in the book. Naturally not: his sword was broken. (Its elvish light is another false anticipation of the reforged Anduril. Anticipation is one of Z's chief faults.) Why then make him do so here, in a contest that was explicitly not fought with weapons?

3) Fought off by Gandalf, all alone;
But the Maia had barely saved his hide, didn't he?:p

4) Missed the Ring when it went right by Minas Morgul The WK had sensed the Ring all right, though it was far further from the Bridge to the hobbits than from one room of the Pony to another, and the WK was unprepared.

5) it is repeatedly stressed that their greatest weapon is fear, an uncertain weapon at best.
It is so:
Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.L#210

[Attalus]

Not if you are familiar with how it was actually being written (Home 6-8). I know, Tolkien was a genius, but it is very hard to write in such a confusing, messy way, "letting the story to write itself". It leads to numerous plot-holes, and the enemies start to appear ... hmm.. enigmatic, if not outright stupid. Tolkien simply rarely thought and plotted from their point of view - and it shows.I am quite familiar with how it was written. I am also familiar with how JRRT changed (many) things from draft to draft. I take the {noncanonical) "The Hunt for the Ring" to be JRRT's final concept of them. This may or may not be justified, but it neatly jibes with the Canonical instances I have alluded to


This, I would say, is the only episode convincingly explained by the Hunt for the Ring in RC. Aragorn was not a main factor - Frodo's Barrow-blade was.As Gandalf put it, Frodo was saved from an incurable Morgul-knife wound in his heart because he "resisted to the last." I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound like something that would affect five strong, fierce beings. Wound somebody that they almost (but not certainly) knew was carrying their dread master's fondest desire and then withdraw and wait to see what would happen? Even a troop of Orcs would have served better.


Needless discussion: Aragorn had no other blade, as told by Tolkien himself in the letter #210 about the Weathertop scene: Hence my reference to the unCanonical references on other Forums. As I clearly posted, there is no cCanonical mention of other weapons.



But the Maia had barely saved his hide, didn't he?:p "Barely," like "close" just counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

The WK had sensed the Ring all right, though it was far further from the Bridge to the hobbits than from one room of the Pony to another, and the WK was unprepared. This is another instance that occurred to me that I was too hurried to mentio. These super-undead-"bad guys" refusing to attack an unfortified inn with just one armed man present, just because they were "afraid that Gandalf might be there?" Oh, please. Again, a troop of Orcs would have served better.
This is why I regard the Nazgul as overrated by the Wise. As you so cogently quote, "unreasoning fear" was their primary weapon.
I recently reread John Keegan's The Face of Battle, and saw how he ascribed the defeat of the much larger French army at Agincourt, as well as the repulse of D'Erlon's initial infantry attack and the French Guard's attack on Wellingon's center at Waterloo as due not so much to the fighting "head" of the columns, who seem to acquitted themselves quite well in all cases but the spread of panic towards the rear of each of these columns. This seems to have been a factor at Helm's Deep, the Pellenor, and the final assault of the Black Gate. Tolkein, as a soldier, would have been familiar with this phenomenon, which seems to have affected the Germans at the Battle of the Somme. Fear (on the enemy's part) is a great asset in any fight, but it can never be counted on, as the Witch-King and Sauron both found to their cost.

[Coffeehouse]

At the time, the author
was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character.

It's true that there were no deaths between Hobbiton and Rivendell. Like you touched upon, story-wise, it is uncommon to start with a death or deaths of primary or secondary characters. And to JRR Tolkien it would be poor form indeed:rolleyes::p
So that's a point, the Nazgûl were from the very start disadvantaged, story-wise, by the fact that JRR Tolkien wouldn't permit any of them to hack down a defenceless hobbit or two out in the wild or in the confines of a hobbit-hole.
But what JRR Tolkien shows with the pursuit between Hobbiton and Bree is that the Nazgûl simply lacked the foresight and skill in tracking down the hobbits and cornering them.

When you read the Fellowship of the Ring, although the Nazgûl's fear-factor is quite palpable from the hobbit point-of-view, you come to realise that they are not at all 'in-sync' with their surroundings nor their task. Before they finally step out into the open, at night of course, at Weathertop, they seem more like severely inhibited soldiers-of-despair sent out on a task that is too steep a hill to climb. They're simply not up for it.

So why were the Nazgûl ill-suited for their task?
It seems the Nazgûl could not execute proper tactics that were adapted to the terrain that the hunt took place in, Eriador. It's a vast area of small towns and farms, woodlands and a great many places to hide.
The Nazgûl, despite the fact that they are ancient Kings of Middle-Earth, and despite the fact, as Olmer raises in his 'Where's the beef'-theory, the Witch-King had his kingdom of Angmar just up the road, are inhibited by their own state of being. They don't feel familiar with Hobbiton, the Shire, Bree or any woodland in-between because if they ever knew anything about these places, I think they've mostly forgotten it. The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were; The cognitive functions, that work well for any other normal being living beneath the sun-light of Eriador, simply aren't in a very good shape in the dark-natured, half-withered beings that the Nazgul are. In darkness, yes, they feel strengthened and are keen hunters, and that is natural. They have been the slaves of Sauron for centuries, in a land of darkness, and really the only thing one could really expect from them is that they know of nothing else. Perhaps that is also a point where Olmer's theory falls short: the notion that the Nazgûl were tired of their state of existence. I think they despaired, but as a heroin drug addict of many years would, the Nazgûl simply don't see an alternative. The darkness was as much a pain-killer as it was a pain and thus the Nazgûl were despite its sides of despair, uncontrollably compelled in serving absolutely the provider of the pain-killers, Sauron.

The impression one is left with in the Fellowship of the Ring is that the Nazgûl were sent on a task that they really did not have the know-how to execute or the adaptability to engage in. Barred their obvious talents as nocturnal hunters, they were met with obstacles such as at least 12-hours a day of sunlight, unchartered terrain, the presence of rangers, the presence of Elves, the presence of Gandalf, the lack of local aid and last but not least, a fundamental misunderstanding of what hobbits were.
If you couple that with poor cognitive functions, particularly during daylight, an overdependence on their fear-factor and a fear of water it's clear that it was Sauron who underequipped and undermanned his Ring-finding-expedition. And that is why an expedition founded on fear and not proper expertise did not work:cool:

[Gordis]

I am quite familiar with how it was written. I am also familiar with how JRRT changed (many) things from draft to draft. I take the {noncanonical) "The Hunt for the Ring" to be JRRT's final concept of them. This may or may not be justified, but it neatly jibes with the Canonical instances I have alluded toThe Hunt for the Ring is not an attempt to rewrite the original story, it is a gap-filler, an attempt to justify the delays and inconsistencies of the canonic story as best Tolkien could. He was not always successful. Olmer, by the way, attempted to do the same and I liked it. But anyway, Tolkien's own explanation must needs take precedence...;)

As Gandalf put it, Frodo was saved from an incurable Morgul-knife wound in his heart because he "resisted to the last." I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound like something that would affect five strong, fierce beings. Wound somebody that they almost (but not certainly) knew was carrying their dread master's fondest desire and then withdraw and wait to see what would happen? Even a troop of Orcs would have served better.
What wouldn't affect them? Sorry, I don't get it.
I was saying that they withdrew mostly because Frodo wielded the Barrow blade - the deadliest weapon for the nazgul. To wound Frodo was not a small feat in itself, while he was holding THAT blade: only the WK dared approach the poisonous little snake, the two other nazgul had stopped. Add to that that Frodo was wearing the One Ring "an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility" -L#246. It was a sacrilege to attack the wielder of the One Ring. In the process, the WK almost got killed himself. No wonder he was upset and frightened and took some time to recover.

Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?), they put ambushes at the main strategic spots: bridge of Mitheithel (Last Bridge) and at the Ford of Bruinen. In both cases they were right: the company did come there. If the nazgul were hindered, it was by a new factor: Glorfindel.

And YES, a troop of Orcs would have served better in this case. A troop of Men (Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers) would have been ideal. But it was Sauron's choice to send the nazgul. All this is explained in the "Hunt" (UT): the nazgul were highly unsuitable for such a mission and only chosen because they were the only ones who could be trusted to bring Sauron his Precious and not pocket it along the way. Note: Sauron didn't send them because he hoped to get advantage by the fear they cause. Instead he recognized their fear as a disadvantage for that particular mission. But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul.

it is uncommon to start with a death or deaths of primary or secondary characters.
All detective stories start this way - I rather enjoy it.:cool: I wouldn't mind to find someone violently murdered at Crickhollow or in the Prancing pony. But well... it was supposed to be a sequel to the Hobbit, a book for children.

But what JRR Tolkien shows with the pursuit between Hobbiton and Bree is that the Nazgûl simply lacked the foresight and skill in tracking down the hobbits and cornering them. That is the impression we inevitably get (here I agree) - I only try to point out that it was not intentional on the author's part. After all, Tolkien couldn't let Khamul to pay a visit to Bag End while the hobbits were packing, or to reach the Ferry ten minutes earlier. The story would have been too short and grim.;)

When you read the Fellowship of the Ring, although the Nazgûl's fear-factor is quite palpable from the hobbit point-of-view, you come to realize that they are not at all 'in-sync' with their surroundings nor their task. Before they finally step out into the open, at night of course, at Weathertop, they seem more like severely inhibited soldiers-of-despair sent out on a task that is too steep a hill to climb. They're simply not up for it.
You have to consider that the nazgul were not supposed to be hunting hobbits or rabbits or gollums all alone in a far-away enemy country. That must have been quite a new (and quite unpleasant) experience for them. Normally they led armies, ruled countries, acted as ambassadors.

They don't feel familiar with Hobbiton, the Shire, Bree or any woodland in-between because if they ever knew anything about these places, I think they've mostly forgotten it.
More likely, the places have changed a lot over the last millennium. Tolkien didn't say they had forgotten anything:
The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. -UT, p. 348

The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were;
:confused: What greater clarity of mind after the attack?:eek: Quote please!

The cognitive functions, that work well for any other normal being living beneath the sun-light of Eriador, simply aren't in a very good shape in the dark-natured, half-withered beings that the Nazgul are. In darkness, yes, they feel strengthened and are keen hunters, and that is natural. They have been the slaves of Sauron for centuries, in a land of darkness, and really the only thing one could really expect from them is that they know of nothing else. Perhaps that is also a point where Olmer's theory falls short: the notion that the Nazgûl were tired of their state of existence. I think they despaired, but as a heroin drug addict of many years would, the Nazgûl simply don't see an alternative. The darkness was as much a pain-killer as it was a pain and thus the Nazgûl were despite its sides of despair, uncontrollably compelled in serving absolutely the provider of the pain-killers, Sauron.
All this is OK as long as you do not mix altered senses, difficulties to perceive the World of Light with the absence of clarity of mind or even with dementia.

[Coffeehouse]

Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?)

Perhaps riding with horses across the terrain the hobbits and Strider embarked on would be difficult (ex., swamps), but that shouldn't be an excuse. Here again the Nazgûl didn't show any adaptability.

The Nazgûl easily could have disembarked from their steeds, leaving one or two in charge of the horses further along the path, f.ex. at a strategic point such at the bridge of Mitheithel or the Ford of Bruinen, while the rest pursued the hobbits and Strider where they would least expect it, off-road.


But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul.

I completely agree. Sauron made an executive decision, and he chose to rely on the one factor that in the past had failed him before: the fear-factor. Perhaps Sauron also did overestimate his Nazgûl, forgetting the violent strains their enslaved mind were enduring, and hooked on his darkness.


All detective stories start this way

Right, but then again Tolkien didn't write a who-did-it-story in the Lord of the Rings:cool:


You have to consider that the nazgul were not supposed to be hunting hobbits or rabbits or gollums all alone in a far-away enemy country. That must have been quite a new (and quite unpleasant) experience for them. Normally they led armies, ruled countries, acted as ambassadors.

That thought has occurred to me:) In fact that's one of the reasons I'm listing their unsuitability for this mission: They were found wanting on a task that proved too difficult for theim.


More likely, the places have changed a lot over the last millennium. Tolkien didn't say they had forgotten anything

What is to be expected though? The Nazgûl have suffered physical and psychological torture for decades upon decades. They have lived in a constant darkness in a land that tries to suffocate both body and mind. I think that influences the mind, what you know, what you remember. But I admit I'm speculating:)


:confused: What greater clarity of mind after the attack?:eek: Quote please!

You provided the exact quote I was looking for yourself;), "The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter."

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?

Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded.

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

[Gordis]

Perhaps riding with horses across the terrain the hobbits and Strider embarked on would be difficult (ex., swamps), but that shouldn't be an excuse. Here again the Nazgûl didn't show any adaptability.

The Nazgûl easily could have disembarked from their steeds, leaving one or two in charge of the horses further along the path, f.ex. at a strategic point such at the bridge of Mitheithel or the Ford of Bruinen, while the rest pursued the hobbits and Strider where they would least expect it, off-road.
What for?:confused: Why trudge across the Marches trying to find the hobbits' tracks when they could instead wait for them to come to Weathertop? The nazgul expected them there and were quite right. Aragorn indeed led his charges right into the trap. It was very good planning on the nazgul's part, good tactic and the correct use of the terrain.

I completely agree. Sauron made an executive decision, and he chose to rely on the one factor that in the past had failed him before: the fear-factor. But NO! I have to repeat it again and again: Sauron didn't rely on the fear factor: instead he considered fear that the nazgul spread a grave disadvantage. Read the UT:
Yet this weakness [the nazgul] had for Sauron's present purpose: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and their mission be guessed by the Wise.

You provided the exact quote I was looking for yourself;), "The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter."
And you interpret it as: "The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were." Are you joking?:rolleyes:

Here is the whole quote :
This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally. The Witch-king also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him: Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and enquiry.
The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. 19 Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. 20 He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.

Where you see any rangers, attacks, or hampered minds?:rolleyes:

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil? The Witch-King had already done in quite a few heirs of Elendil.:p

[Attalus]

What wouldn't affect them? Sorry, I don't get it.
I was saying that they withdrew mostly because Frodo wielded the Barrow blade - the deadliest weapon for the nazgul. To wound Frodo was not a small feat in itself, while he was holding THAT blade: only the WK dared approach the poisonous little snake, the two other nazgul had stopped. Add to that that Frodo was wearing the One Ring "an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility" -L#246. It was a sacrilege to attack the wielder of the One Ring. In the process, the WK almost got killed himself. No wonder he was upset and frightened and took some time to recover.

Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?), they put ambushes at the main strategic spots: bridge of Mitheithel (Last Bridge) and at the Ford of Bruinen. In both cases they were right: the company did come there. If the nazgul were hindered, it was by a new factor: Glorfindel.

And YES, a troop of Orcs would have served better in this case. A troop of Men (Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers) would have been ideal. But it was Sauron's choice to send the nazgul. All this is explained in the "Hunt" (UT): the nazgul were highly unsuitable for such a mission and only chosen because they were the only ones who could be trusted to bring Sauron his Precious and not pocket it along the way. Note: Sauron didn't send them because he hoped to get advantage by the fear they cause. Instead he recognized their fear as a disadvantage for that particular mission. But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul.


Why, resisiting to the last wouldn't affect the Nazgul exept by foiling their attempt on Frodo.

Anyway, this is not an attempt to explain Sauron, only to show how relatively powerless the Nazgul were. Look, let's assume that Frodo's Barrow-Blade was the equivalent of Merry's. Heck, let's go all the way and say that it was the greatest Wraith-bane in the history of Middle-earth, that one touch would turn a Nazgul into corpse-powder or whatever. This all begs the question of the Naguls' mission, to secure the Ring of Power. It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life. The Orcs knew this: consider the piles of bodies at Parth Galen. The Nagul, ex-generals or the equivalent, all, must have known it, too. We must therefore assume that the only weapons they had were Fear, a spent bolt, already, and the Morgul-knife. If they had any other, Sauron would have required them to use it, even if by doing so they ended their existence but they did nothing but shadow the party and try to scare them, to be swept away by a river in flood and failed. Sauron must of known this, or they would have been punished instead of giving them "newsteeds and swifter." It is notable that we hear no more of them except as messengers and bogies, until the seige of Gondor, when we are expressly told that Sauron infused the Witch-King with greater power.

[Coffeehouse]

I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?

Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded.

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

It probably is a combination of both. Sauron might be forgiven such, but a saying come's to mind which he would have done well to heed: "Know thy enemy", and it seems that in the most momentous defeats of dictators they're undoing was underestimating their enemy's capacity to mobilize (Tsarist Russia besieged by Napoleon, Stalin's USSR besieged by Hitler, British-occupied Egypt besieged by the German Afrika Korps, United States Revolutionaries besieged by the British, etc, the list goes on), which for Sauron was the case not only in the hunt for the ring but indeed the rest of the war.

We can also forgive Sauron for implementing a strategy which was not entirely unreasonable: Going in fast, by stealth and snatching the ring before it ever reached Rivendell and before his enemies understand what is going on. But the tactics he chooses for this strategy aren't compatible with the manpower he sends, the Nazgûl. They seem incapable of reigning in the chill darkness they eminate when it's not needed, and thus simply cannot produce the fast stealthy approach that Sauron expects.

**EDIT** Didn't see the newest posts!:)
But NO! I have to repeat it again and again: Sauron didn't rely on the fear factor: instead he considered fear that the nazgul spread a grave disadvantage.

As I write above, Sauron may choose a fast, stealthy approach, but he is relying on a fear factor whether he intends to or not! If he is unable to understand that the Nazgûl are unable to reign in their fear factor and in place choose a more stealthier approach then has a shockingly poor insight into his own subject's nature.


And you interpret it as: "The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were." Are you joking?:rolleyes:

Not rangers of course, but a Dunlending, my bad, was mixing with another situation.

Concerning their mental health: no I'm not joking. The Witch-King here shows evidence that he had forgotten and had a confused understanding of the terrain ahead and the lay of the people, towns and land. When he is given prime information by the Dunlending his mind is refreshed. This is not a direct evidence that the Nazgûl have severely inhibited minds. But as I wrote in a previous post, it is likely that the Nazgûl being slaves of Sauron, being physically and psychologically scarred, suffer from not only a heroine-aliken addiction to darkness but also several other inhibitions like memory loss. Remember, they aren't human any longer. It was a long time since they were and it seems absurd that it has not affected their minds. It's a speculation, true, but it doesn't make it less likely.

This all begs the question of the Naguls' mission, to secure the Ring of Power. It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life.

I agree whole-heartedly with this. It raises a good point about the task of the Nazgûl and what they were meant to accomplish: Retrieving the ring at any cost. If we consider the Hashashin of the times during the Caliphates, whom were highly-trained assassins meant to locate and kill (or even kidnap and retrieve) targets. They were obliged to do their best, they obliged to finish their mission and if neccessary, die trying.

[Gordis]

It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life. The Orcs knew this: consider the piles of bodies at Parth Galen. The Nagul, ex-generals or the equivalent, all, must have known it, too.
Exactly. They valued their lives above any silly Ruling Rings - which shows them to be very rational creatures..:D

EDIT: and in view of Coffeehouse's latest addition, I have to say that the nazgul didn't resemble Hashashin at all. They were not going to risk their lives - regardless of Sauron's wishes.

Sauron must of known this, or they would have been punished instead of giving them "newsteeds and swifter." It is notable that we hear no more of them except as messengers and bogies, until the seige of Gondor, when we are expressly told that Sauron infused the Witch-King with greater power.
Also a great feat on the WK's part was to mollify the angry Dark Lord, making him believe that the failure was due to the Elven-hobbit conspiracy and was no fault of the Nine.
The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. RC p.262
Why, Gorbag even says: "But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays, so it's no use grumbling.":p

[CAB]

The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.

[Gordis]

The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.

I tend to agree, but still I think that a group of trained Men under the nazgul's direct command would have been an asset.:)

[CAB]

I tend to agree, but still I think that a group of trained Men under the nazgul's direct command would have been an asset.:)That is possible, but such a situation could have become a fiasco quite quickly. If a typical (or even well trained) Black Numenorean was drawn to the Ring at a Gollum-like rate (which I think is likely), then the Nazgul may have ended up chasing their own servants around.

Regardless, the Nazgul had to be included in this mission. Some of the problems arising from their unsuitability (for instance, fear-factor vs stealth) simply could not be avoided.

[Coffeehouse]

EDIT: and in view of Coffeehouse's latest addition, I have to say that the nazgul didn't resemble Hashashin at all. They were not going to risk their lives - regardless of Sauron's wishes.

Yet that would seem completely contradictory wouldn't it. The Nazgûl were compelled to take the One Ring due to Sauron holding the Nine Rings. According to what Tolkien's narrative tells us, it would be impossible for the Nazgûl to defy their master's orders.

Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice. Just like the Hashashin, they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost. The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron. They are in fact a disgrace to the profession that they were meant to serve in the hunt for the ring if they are unwilling to sacrifice their worthless wraight-lives for Sauron.

And although they seem to be the only one's who would actually return the One Ring once it was retrieved, they were also the only one's who seemed unwilling to sacrifice their lives to obtain the One Ring.

Which leaves one conclusion: Sauron was overstimated by the Wise, he did not have the awesome power they hyped him up to have.

[Alcuin]

I tend to agree, but still I think that a group of trained Men under the nazgul's direct command would have been an asset.That is possible, but such a situation could have become a fiasco quite quickly. If a typical (or even well trained) Black Numenorean was drawn to the Ring at a Gollum-like rate (which I think is likely), then the Nazgul may have ended up chasing their own servants around.

Regardless, the Nazgul had to be included in this mission. Some of the problems arising from their unsuitability (for instance, fear-factor vs stealth) simply could not be avoided.They did have men under their control, at least in Bree. There were Bill Ferney, who apparently had one of these creatures in his house or at least on his property; Harry Goatleaf the gatekeeper; and the squint-eyed, sallow-faced Southerner of ill fame who started out working for Saruman and was “recruited� by the Witch-king. They must also have had men helping them in the southern end of the Vales of Anduin, Sauron’s messengers, who provided them the fresh horses.

The only question might be why no living, normal men accompanied them to “Shire� to find “Baggins�. Could no living men endure their company that long?

[CAB]

Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice.

I disagree. The task had two parts: Obtain the Ring and return it to Sauron. Sauron may have had other servants better suited to performing the first part, but only the Nazgul could complete the second. Therefore, they were his only possible choice.



The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron.

I don't agree with this either. Sauron was stronger than his opponents even without the Ring. No one in Middle Earth could have successfully wielded the Ring against him. He didn't spend a great deal of resources trying to recover it. But, I will agree that he would have willingly traded some Nazgul to regain the Ring.



Which leaves one conclusion: Sauron was overstimated by the Wise, he did not have the awesome power they hyped him up to have.

I think the conclusion is simply that he didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more.

[Coffeehouse]

I disagree. The task had two parts: Obtain the Ring and return it to Sauron. Sauron may have had other servants better suited to performing the first part, but only the Nazgul could complete the second. Therefore, they were his only possible choice.

As you state it's a two-part task. Obtaining the Ring, Returning the Ring.

A sensible execution, of the objective, Sauron once again wielding the Ring, would then be to make sure that the Ring was in fact obtained. If it's not obtained it does not matter that the second task can only be performed by the Nazgûl.
If Sauron understood the nature of the hunt which the Nazgûl would engage in, which basically depended on spreading fear, he would have also seen that it would be a risk not to send back-up. But he didn't.
It's then astonishing that Sauron demanded a stealthy approach. It was not going to happen. He did not then comprehend the obvious inhibition the Nazgûl would have obtaining the Ring, excluding whether or not they would actually return it.


I don't agree with this either. Sauron was stronger than his opponents even without the Ring. No one in Middle Earth could have successfully wielded the Ring against him. He didn't spend a great deal of resources trying to recover it.

I did not speak of the possible destruction of Sauron, but the incalculable power he would have gained by getting the Ring. In that respect getting the Ring would be at the top of his list, no questions asked.


I think the conclusion is simply that he didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more.

That's the argument I have been pushing: The Nazgûl weren't fit for the task under the circumstances.
Yet that does not take away the fact that Sauron was simply unable to compell the Nazgûl to die for him. In other words, he did not have the sort of power that he was made out to have.

[Alcuin]

Perhaps. Perhaps he could only command a Ringwraith to immolate itself while in possession of the One Ring; but Tolkien said that (UT, “Hunt for the Ring”, third paragraph)

“the Ringwraiths … had no will but [Sauron’s] own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.”


In the next paragraph, Tolkien asserts that Sauron’s reasoning was that

…few could withstand even one of these fell creatures, and … none … when gathered together under their … captain, the Lord of Morgul. Yet this weakness they had …: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that … their mission [might] be guessed by the Wise.


It is well to remember that Gandalf told Frodo that Aragorn was “the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world” when he first told him about the Ring in Hobbiton. I take that to mean that, since Gandalf had arrived in Lindon about III 1000, he had never seen a more capable tracker, ranger, leader, or more widely-traveled man than Aragorn. He was a Númenórean par excellence, and the context is that he was on par with Isildur’s sons: Elrond thought he was most like Isildur’s eldest son, Elendur, who of all Elendil’s children and grandchildren was most like his grandfather. (UT, “Disaster as Gladden Field”, footnote 26 and the accompanying text in the essay) Aragorn was unusual even from a line of the most outstanding men in Middle-earth – even from the most outstanding line of men in Númenor. He told his wife before he died that he was the “last of the Númenóreans, and the latest King of the Elder Days”. (RotK, “Aragorn and Arwen”) Frodo and Gandalf agreed when Frodo awoke in Rivendell that all would have been lost without Aragorn, and even then without the timely assistance of Glorfindel, the Ringwraiths would have seized the Ring.

It is not that the Ringwraiths were incapable or incompetent or indecisive or in defiance. They were simply “unlucky”, as men call it: they just missed Frodo at Bag End, Gildor and his companions showed up in the Woody End, they just missed Frodo at Bamfurlong (Maggot’s Farm), they were late in Crickhollow, and then they completely lost track of the hobbits when they entered the Old Forest. They knew nothing about Bombadil (who had likely been creating problems for the Witch-king many centuries earlier), who spoilt the trap of the barrow-wight, a feat the Nazgûl erroneously attributed to Frodo, and which caused to them proceed more cautiously. (There, Coffeehouse, you can easily assert that they were insufficiently suicidal.) They could not regain track of the hobbits until Bree, and there Frodo and his three companions met Strider the Ranger.

And Strider had trouble with them, lots of trouble. Frodo barely made it alive to Rivendell: had he been a Man and not a Hobbit, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and Elrond all seemed in agreement that he would have succumbed to the Morgul-wound: even Gandalf was (pleasantly!) surprised. Without Glorfindel foiling their plans to block the Last Bridge, putting Frodo on his swifter (and more intelligent) horse, and finally chasing six (?) of the Nazgûl into the raging Bruinen, they would still have overcome their prey.

I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky”. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared.

All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot.

[Coffeehouse]

Perhaps. Perhaps he could only command a Ringwraith to immolate itself while in possession of the One Ring; but Tolkien said that (UT, “Hunt for the Ring”, third paragraph)


In the next paragraph, Tolkien asserts that Sauron’s reasoning was that


It is well to remember that Gandalf told Frodo that Aragorn was “the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world” when he first told him about the Ring in Hobbiton. I take that to mean that, since Gandalf had arrived in Lindon about III 1000, he had never seen a more capable tracker, ranger, leader, or more widely-traveled man than Aragorn. He was a Númenórean par excellence, and the context is that he was on par with Isildur’s sons: Elrond thought he was most like Isildur’s eldest son, Elendur, who of all Elendil’s children and grandchildren was most like his grandfather. (UT, “Disaster as Gladden Field”, footnote 26 and the accompanying text in the essay) Aragorn was unusual even from a line of the most outstanding men in Middle-earth – even from the most outstanding line of men in Númenor. He told his wife before he died that he was the “last of the Númenóreans, and the latest King of the Elder Days”. (RotK, “Aragorn and Arwen”) Frodo and Gandalf agreed when Frodo awoke in Rivendell that all would have been lost without Aragorn, and even then without the timely assistance of Glorfindel, the Ringwraiths would have seized the Ring.

It is not that the Ringwraiths were incapable or incompetent or indecisive or in defiance. They were simply “unlucky”, as men call it: they just missed Frodo at Bag End, Gildor and his companions showed up in the Woody End, they just missed Frodo at Bamfurlong (Maggot’s Farm), they were late in Crickhollow, and then they completely lost track of the hobbits when they entered the Old Forest. They knew nothing about Bombadil (who had likely been creating problems for the Witch-king many centuries earlier), who spoilt the trap of the barrow-wight, a feat the Nazgûl erroneously attributed to Frodo, and which caused to them proceed more cautiously. (There, Coffeehouse, you can easily assert that they were insufficiently suicidal.) They could not regain track of the hobbits until Bree, and there Frodo and his three companions met Strider the Ranger.

And Strider had trouble with them, lots of trouble. Frodo barely made it alive to Rivendell: had he been a Man and not a Hobbit, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and Elrond all seemed in agreement that he would have succumbed to the Morgul-wound: even Gandalf was (pleasantly!) surprised. Without Glorfindel foiling their plans to block the Last Bridge, putting Frodo on his swifter (and more intelligent) horse, and finally chasing six (?) of the Nazgûl into the raging Bruinen, they would still have overcome their prey.

I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky”. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared.

All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot.

It's a convincing defence Alcuin, I'll give you that:) Yet explaining away all their mishappenings and unfortunate mistimings to bad luck seems a stretch. It would be quite the impressive string of luck I must say;)

But I'll iriterate what I argued in the thread "Nâzgul in the Prancing Pony?", http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=14908&page=2,

"After the Nazgûl crossed the Sarn they had arguably two defining moments where they failed, and it wasn't just any Nazgûl that failed. It was Khamûl, followed by the Witch-king himself.
1. Khamûl, having the fortune to be told by Gaffer Gamgee of Frodo's relative whereabouts actually comes across the three hobbits. What follows is a question mark to me. Yes Gildor and the High Elves pass near by, but before this happens the Lieutenant couldn't possibly have missed the hobbits. Foregoing that opportunity of taking the Ring is an example of some serious underperformance. Incompetence at a time when a cool head and swift action could have made the difference. But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task.
2. The Witch-king, accompanied by Khamûl and three other Nazgûl, though only attacking Frodo with two of them, manages to miss Frodo's heart in a 3 versus 1 combat. This is obviously before Aragorn intervenes. The Witch-king is in these defining seconds in front of 'the Baggins', with the One Ring on his finger, lit up in front of him like a Christmas Tree. The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target!"

Now, I want to add since the issue of the 'dreaded barrow-blades' was brought up. Obviously that is a lethal weapon, and accordingly the Witch-King and his Nazgûl companions are actually afraid of it. Yet if we think about it the blade is just a blade. Whether it actually hits the Witch-King or not would be the difference thus, a lethal blow wherever it hit the Witch-king. Yet great warriors find themselves in man-to-man combat all the time and a truly skilled warrior would effectively avoid being hit. It should in other words take a great deal to strike anywhere near the Witch-King. Attributing it then to just bad luck for the Witch-King that Frodo seemed to carry a lethal blade is not good enough. For a sword-wielding expert such as the Witch-King it should therefore not matter what blade Frodo was carrying. All in all there should be only one outcome: and that is that the Witch-King strikes Frodo without being even remotely close to danger. That the Witch-King falls on bad luck because that little brat Frodo utters some Elvish words and wields a blade that could prove lethal is not believable. It's not bad luck, it's incompetence and a lack of focus when it matters the most! :)

[Alcuin]

My answer to that is to recount Gandalf’s explanation of how he became involved with Thorin and his expedition to Erebor, and how Gandalf came to involve Bilbo, almost on a whim, as it were. In Unfinished Takes, “Hunt for the Ring�, the very end of the first telling, Gandalf says,

It might all have gone very differently indeed. … We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted – because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.

I am not sure it was chance, at least in the context of the Tale.

In the earlier version of the telling, “typescript B�, Gandalf recalls arguing with the Dwarves about whether or not they should take Bilbo.

…suddenly I felt that I was indeed in hot earnest. This queer notion of mine was not a joke, it was right. It was desperately important that it should be carried out.

“Listen to me, Durin’s Folk!� I cried. “If you persuade this Hobbit to join you, you will succeed. If you do not, you will fail...�

Luck and chance indeed.


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(Added later)

My apologies, Coffeehouse. I was so stuck on “luckâ€� and Gandalf the White’s remark on “chanceâ€�, hoping that everyone would notice a parallel to the Ringwraiths’ “bad luckâ€� in pursuing Frodo and his companions (cf. UT, “Hunt for the Ringâ€�: “In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange ‘good fortune’ that went with Gandalf.â€� And Gandalf’s words to Pippin after he looked into the palantÃ*r: “You have been saved .... mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time.â€�) that I did not properly respond to your position.

You are correct, I think, that the Nazgûl were afraid – really afraid – of the barrow-blades. We now know they believed – wrongly, but it was helpful to Frodo and his companions – that Frodo had dispatched the barrow-wight. The others held back, but the Witch-king was undaunted. A true warrior, albeit an evil one, he attacked Frodo anyway, wounded him, and believing the wound mortal (it always had been in the past, at least so far from proper facilities, supplies, and presumably away from skilled and knowledgeable people – he did not recognize Aragorn, of course), he and his fellows backed off while the malevolent effects ran their inevitable, destructive course. It was the wise and sensible thing to do, and without Aragorn to slow the progress of the splinter in the wound, it would have been successful in overcoming Frodo before he reached Rivendell, however hardy he might have been.

[Gordis]

Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice. Just like the Hashashin, they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost. The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron. They are in fact a disgrace to the profession that they were meant to serve in the hunt for the ring if they are unwilling to sacrifice their worthless wraight-lives for Sauron.

CAB is 100 percent correct: the nazgul were the ONLY choice. Only the nazgul could be trusted to bring back the Ring. Only them, no other.

The nazgul were NOT chosen because "they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost." No. For that Sauron had other servants, maybe he had something like the Hashashin, why not? But they were not the nazgul.
You misunderstand the nazgul's "profession." The nazgul were most valuable, they were IRREPLACABLE, that was a great difference from any expendable killers.

The only question might be why no living, normal men accompanied them to “Shire� to find “Baggins�. Could no living men endure their company that long?Maybe, but I think Sauron wouldn't consider the hurt feelings of Mortal Men. If some go mad along the way, that is their problem. CAB is again right, IMO: Sauron still was afraid that one of the Men may steal the Ring.

I think the conclusion is simply that Sauron didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more.
Actually the first servant Sauron sent to recover the Ring in enemy territory was Gollum. He was much more suitable than the nazgul in terms of searching for the Ring with stealth. He was not reliable enough to bring it back - but here the nazgul could have been sent to hunt for Gollum.

I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky�. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared.

All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot.
WOW - thumbs up, Alcuin!

The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target
Are you sure that a Morgul blade works like that? Are you sure it is meant to be driven right into the heart? I doubt it. Otherwise, why all this talk about splinters?.. as if the nazgul were known to miss the heart constantly.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.
Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.

[Coffeehouse]

CAB is 100 percent correct: the nazgul were the ONLY choice. Only the nazgul could be trusted to bring back the Ring. Only them, no other.

Yes we all agree on that, but that's not the point I raised though. What I'm arguing is that there is no point having Nazgûl safely returning the Ring when the Nazgûl aren't able on their own to actually obtain ring.

I disagree about their irreplaceability. I don't believe Tolkien wrote that they were (is there some quote that can back this up?), and you are forgetting one aspect. Although they were highly valuable, they weren't more valuable than the One Ring. It's quite easy to imagine Sauron expending one or two of his Nazgûl in return for the One Ring. If you can answer this I'll rest my case: Why wouldn't he?


Are you sure that a Morgul blade works like that? Are you sure it is meant to be driven right into the heart? I doubt it. Otherwise, why all this talk about splinters?.. as if the nazgul were known to miss the heart constantly.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.
Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.

Well the miss of the heart and the splinters that were left behind made it appear in the books, Aragorn's explanation etc, that they only wished to maim him, but not kill him, so to bring him into the wraight-world. That is believable... but had the Witch-King acted a little quicker he would have killed Frodo instantly, cut off his hand and run away with the Ring, or simply cut off Frodo's hand. I can't imagine that being so very difficult for the Witch-King to achieve, so why didn't he do it? Anyone with a plausible explanation?

[Gordis]

Yes we all agree on that, but that's not the point I raised though. What I'm arguing is that there is no point having Nazgûl safely returning the Ring when the Nazgûl aren't able on their own to actually obtain ring.
Nobody expected them to fail: neither Sauron, not even Gandalf:
"But in the circle of Isengard, trapped and alone, it was not easy to think that the hunters before whom all have fled or fallen would falter in the Shire far away."


I disagree about their irreplaceability. I don't believe Tolkien wrote that they were (is there some quote that can back this up?),
Ahem - how would you replace a nazgul? Any ideas?

and you are forgetting one aspect. Although they were highly valuable, they weren't more valuable than the One Ring. It's quite easy to imagine Sauron expending one or two of his Nazgûl in return for the One Ring. If you can answer this I'll rest my case: Why wouldn't he?Oh yes, I believe Sauron would have agreed to exchange 2-3 nazgul (barring the WK) for the One Ring. But the nazgul obviously didn't share this view.;)

but had the Witch-King acted a little quicker he would have killed Frodo instantly, cut off his hand and run away with the Ring, or simply cut off Frodo's hand. I can't imagine that being so very difficult for the Witch-King to achieve, so why didn't he do it? Anyone with a plausible explanationI think at the time the nazgul tried to follow Sauron's instructions: to bring him not only the Ring but also Baggins - alive or as a wraith. It was not accidental that the WK hit Frodo with a Morgul Blade, not the sword he had in the other hand.

Note that at Crickhollow the nazgul at the door apparently unsheathed another such blade: The figure by the door moved. In the dark without moon or stars a drawn blade gleamed, as if a chill light had been unsheathed.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Witch-King had already done in quite a few heirs of Elendil.:p

And yet he along with four other Nazgul fled from this ONE wielding nothing but a flickering torch. I know, he feared the barrow blades, too, but Aragorn's appearance was certainly a factor in their flight, as wall as feeling assured of victory having already stabbed Frodo. It was just a matter of time.

Also, I'm not sure the tale of slain heirs is as long as you seem to imply. Who has he personally killed that we know of? Earnur, assuming he's actually dead and not still undergoing some sort of undead torture chamber in Minas Morgul.

Arvedui's boat sank. You might credit WiKi with part of that, maybe.

Who else? Granted, I haven't delved as deeply into HoME as many others here, but I can't recall a single instance where WiKi specifically killed an heir. I'm sure he killed many Numenorians on the battlefields of the north but kings or kings' sons, I'd be interested to read about.

[Gordis]

And yet he along with four other Nazgul fled from this ONE wielding nothing but a flickering torch.
Not fled. Retreated. :p

Also, I'm not sure the tale of slain heirs is as long as you seem to imply. Who has he personally killed that we know of? Earnur, assuming he's actually dead and not still undergoing some sort of undead torture chamber in Minas Morgul.

Arvedui's boat sank. You might credit WiKi with part of that, maybe.

Who else? Granted, I haven't delved as deeply into HoME as many others here, but I can't recall a single instance where WiKi specifically killed an heir. I'm sure he killed many Numenorians on the battlefields of the north but kings or kings' sons, I'd be interested to read about.
OK the WK slew Earnur, Arvedui (indirectly), maybe had a hand in killing Argeleb, Arveleg and Boromir I, Steward of Gondor.

In the drafts for the Tale of Years there is a note about Arveleg: In this year 1409 King Arveleg I of Fornost was slain in battle by the Witch-king" - HOME 12 p.230
And, curiously, in the drafts the Witch-King had yet another victim: King Narmacil II.
At this time the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) who had seized Mordor long before began to assail Ithilien. Narmakil was slain by the Sorcerer- king." - HOME XII, Heirs of Elendil p.215.

[Alcuin]

OK the WK slew Earnur, Arvedui (indirectly), maybe had a hand in killing Argeleb, Arveleg and Boromir I, Steward of Gondor.In this year 1409 King Arveleg I of Fornost was slain in battle by the Witch-king" - HOME 12 p.230And, curiously, in the drafts the Witch-King had yet another victim: King Narmacil II.At this time the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) who had seized Mordor long before began to assail Ithilien. Narmakil was slain by the Sorcerer- king." - HOME XII, Heirs of Elendil p.215. Ooh! I missed those! (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm) Thanks!



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Added later

FYI, RotK, “Appendix A� says that Narmacil II was killed fighting against the Wainriders; in UT, “Cirion and Eorl� (footnote 8), Tolkien says this battle was called the Battle of the Plains. As for Argeleb I and Arveleg I, they are good candidates, and they certainly died as a result of the Witch-king’s machinations. “Appendix A� says, “Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar. ... A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, ... and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain.�

I will incorporate the information about Arveleg and a note documenting the reference to an alternate ending for Narmacil into the essay (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm). Thanks again!

[Attalus]

I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me :( ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.

[Coffeehouse]

I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me :( ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.

Good observation Attalus. It seems there could have been as much jealousy and fear influencing his decision as a cool-headed executive decision to set the best 'men' on the job. The Nazgûl were unable to perform the kind of stealthy mission that they were acquired to do.

It's possible to make the argument that the Nazgûl had a fantastic string of bad luck that simply denied them a well-deserved catch. But surely you can turn that logic around and then we can look at it from another point-of-view. The Nazgûl were fortunate enough to chase between Bag End and the Old Forest not a group of High-Elves carrying the ring or a heavily protected ring-bearer, but three defenseless hobbits who had no idea what they were up against. Bar the night with Gildor and the High-Elves the three hobbits were pretty much sitting ducks.

The Nazgûl were also present in Bree, a town with as much history of combat as the last few hundred years put together of Zürich or Geneva. The Nazgûl could participate in sieges and great battles but not break their way in to an Inn, off all fortified places. I think that shows incompetence, and although Aragorn makes the point that there are many miles yet left of Eriador that would be a poor way to go about it wouldn't it. No worries Stalin!, Hitler's army is only come to Moscow. He still has to cross the rest of Russia, not to mention Siberia. It's not a rush;)

[Gordis]

I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me :( ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.
The best choice then would have been for Sauron to get his butt off the Dark Throne and go look for his bauble in person ;)

The Nazgûl were unable to perform the kind of stealthy mission that they were acquired to do. Am I misunderstanding you? Do you say Sauron acquired the nazgul expressly to look for the Ring?


The Nazgûl could participate in sieges and great battles but not break their way in to an Inn, off all fortified places. I think that shows incompetence, and although Aragorn makes the point that there are many miles yet left of Eriador that would be a poor way to go about it wouldn't it. No worries Stalin!, Hitler's army is only come to Moscow. He still has to cross the rest of Russia, not to mention Siberia. It's not a rush

I have already answered this question in "bolsters" thread, so I copy it here:

I think the nazgul did not attack the common room because they were so few - not because they were afraid of locals, but because they feared to lose their prey.

Imagine two nazgul with drawn swords rushing into the common room of the Prancing Pony and ordering everyone to please remain where they are and put their jewelry on the table. :D

What will happen? Some customers, like Strider, maybe also the Dwarves, will stand and fight, but the majority - all the intoxicated locals and all the hobbits included - will stampede in mindless terror through doors, windows and all sorts of exits that they would find. Without automatic fire weapons it is impossible to control everyone in the room, let us face it. The nazgul had not enough men to surround the inn and kill everyone who escaped. It is almost inevitable that some hobbits would get away.

And so what? The nazgul knew for sure that the Ring was in Bree at the moment and later would be moving towards Rivendell. Acting like that would only send the Ringbearer flying - and who knows where? He could hide in any hole in the Bree-hill and lie there low, he could get out of Bree and run north, east west or south.

Much better was to wait and try to burglar their rooms at night - quietly. It was exactly what they did.

[Coffeehouse]

Am I misunderstanding you? Do you say Sauron acquired the nazgul expressly to look for the Ring?

Hehe no.. not acquired, I'm just typing too fast:p Required was what I meant!:rolleyes:

And I agree that there possibly would be much confusion in such a raid. But it again shows incompetence because in Bree the Nazgûl weren't out of luck, but undermanned. The Nazgûl, by splitting up into so many groups, could not effectively execute their mission when they finally had circled in on the ring-bearer and should have struck. Instead they wait until the attack at Weathertop, which shows just how many miles that passed from the hobbits left Bag End till they finally were confronted head-on. It's inefficient, and I give it a C+ at best. The Witch-King gets a minus score for sending two-three completely unreliable and hot-headed Nazgûl for Bree instead of going to the place himself. The Nazgûl in Bree get an even lower score for losing their heads in the situation with Merry, and later when they were suppoed to recover the ring during the night.

It's not a F for failure, but it's outright incompetence. In Bree I think C+ is generous.

[Alcuin]

…in Bree the Nazgûl weren't out of luck, but undermanned. I think that is an excellent observation.

The Nazgûl, by splitting up into so many groups, could not effectively execute their mission when they finally had circled in on the ring-bearer and should have struck. Instead they wait until the attack at Weathertop, which shows just how many miles that passed from the hobbits left Bag End till they finally were confronted head-on. … The Witch-King gets a minus score for sending two-three completely unreliable and hot-headed Nazgûl for Bree instead of going to the place himself.The Witch-king had no other good choices: he had no idea where these elusive little creatures were going. In Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark�, notes for p 176 (I:178), Hammond and Scull cite Tolkien’s notes on the movements of the Nazgûl:The Bearer seems to be moving eastwards, he is therefore surely bound for Rivendell (not the Havens). He would have naturally used the East Road; but will e do so, now that he knows he is pursued? Probably he will attempt to escape from the Shire at some unknown point, through the Old Forest and the Downs, and there make cross-country to strike the Road beyond {…} {The Witch-king} now sends out [three Riders] separately with orders to reassemble just east of Weathertop, and then return towards Bree along or near the Road. [He] himself, [with two other Riders] redoubles his vigilance on the east-borders along the Greenway . . . his counsels are disturbed by threat of attack. Some of the Dúnedain have met Elvish messengers, and [he] is uneasily aware that many enemies are watching him {…}

The Witch-king couldn’t go himself: he still had at least two more Nazgûl in the Shire looking for the Ring-bearer there, because he might not have yet left the Shire. The same night the Inn was attacked, Fatty Bolger barely escaped from the Nazgûl at the house in Crickhollow. And the Nazgûl were not incompetent on this point, either: In Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark�, notes for p 177 (I:189), Hammond and Scull cite Tolkien’s notes on the event for the finalized form of the book:

…three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road

reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king]. . . . [He] is waylaid by the Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day . . . . [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night. . . . The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn.The Dúnedain interfered with the Nazgûl sent to inform the Witch-king. The Witch-king became enraged, and sending half his companions across country to Weathertop, rode in a vicious fury with the other four right through Bree.

It's possible to make the argument that the Nazgûl had a fantastic string of bad luck that simply denied them a well-deserved catch. But surely you can turn that logic around and then we can look at it from another point-of-view. The Nazgûl were fortunate enough to chase between Bag End and the Old Forest not a group of High-Elves carrying the ring or a heavily protected ring-bearer, but three defenseless hobbits who had no idea what they were up against. Bar the night with Gildor and the High-Elves the three hobbits were pretty much sitting ducks.
They had to find them. That was the problem: their prey kept vanishing from sight, going places that they either couldn’t go or couldn’t track immediately. Khamûl couldn’t follow them down the steep hill into the scrub at the Woody End without risking his horse, which would mean losing the Ring-bearer for certain and fouling the whole operation being one horse short (lots of horses couldn't tolerate the Ringwraiths); then he couldn’t get across the Brandywine. Then they went through the Old Forest: the three Nazgûl who found Frodo in Bree were probably surprised and delighted. (Remember, one was sent to tell the Witch-king, but he was “waylaid by the Dúnedain�.) Then Aragorn got them “lost� in the wilderness.

The problem for the Nazgûl seems to be that their senses were ruined for this kind of tracking effort, which they do not seem to have anticipated. No doubt several of them were excellent hunters during their normal lives; but as Ringwraiths, they probably suffered from the same loss of normal sight as Sam when he put on the Ring in the Cleft of Cirith Ungol: he couldn’t see well at all. Even the hobbits noticed that they had trouble seeing, and Merry asked Strider about it atop Weathertop.


The Nazgûl in Bree get an even lower score for losing their heads in the situation with Merry, and later when they were suppoed to recover the ring during the night. That’s what I don’t understand! That’s why I started a separate thread (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15029): all the other stuff makes sense except dropping Merry.

[Coffeehouse]

The problem for the Nazgûl seems to be that their senses were ruined for this kind of tracking effort, which they do not seem to have anticipated. No doubt several of them were excellent hunters during their normal lives; but as Ringwraiths, they probably suffered from the same loss of normal sight as Sam when he put on the Ring in the Cleft of Cirith Ungol: he couldn’t see well at all. Even the hobbits noticed that they had trouble seeing, and Merry asked Strider about it atop Weathertop.

I entirely agree.. it's an aspect which seems to have strongly hampered their hunting between Bag End and Weathertop and which is why I question Sauron's strategy.

I'll give it to you, those are some very persuasive arguments you make Alcuin, I might have to re-adjust the overall poor image I have of the Nazgûl to slightly better:p

Yet although the Nazgûl nearly got to Fatty Bolger at Crickhollow, they weren't even close to taking the house when the ring-bearer was present, and that's what counts right? It seems having to cross the Brandywine really reduced their chances of getting to Frodo before he crossed into the Old Forest with Sam, Pippin and Merry. So should they be pardoned for having to cross a river or should we expect faster, more intelligent solutions by the Nazgûl? I think this again plays into their cognitive abilities. I just don't think they were particularly creative (bar the minimum a nocturnal hunter would have to have)


That’s what I don’t understand! That’s why I started a separate thread (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15029): all the other stuff makes sense except dropping Merry.

Me neither, it's a question-mark isn't it. Will read the thread:)

[CAB]

Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."

One more reason why the Nazgul had to be the ones to retrieve the Ring: The bearer could become invisible to Orcs and Men, but not Nazgul. Yes, he could be tracked by Orcs or Men, but I would think that actually being able to see him would be necessary at some point. Frodo never really used the invisibility conferred by the Ring, but if needed he could have, and Sauron knew it.

The best choice then would have been for Sauron to get his butt off the Dark Throne and go look for his bauble in person ;)

Exactly. If his possession of the Ring was really that important to him, he should have gone himself. He didn't. He sent the best help he had, but knew that the task would prove difficult for them. Later, he only sent a handful of Orcs to Moria. He sent another handful of Orcs and one Nazgul to the river after the company left Lorien. Why did he expend so few resources? Why didn't he make some sort of bold, aggressive move to recover his Ring? Because it was only a piece of the puzzle for him. Granted, it was a large piece, but not overwhelmingly large.

[Coffeehouse]

Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."

True, two of the three Nazgûl halted. But the Witch-King, who seems like the only Nazgûl with any real fight in him, proceeded to stab Frodo. Now, like I raised earlier, why didn't he do more? We know what happened: "[...] a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." Am I supposed to believe then that the Witch-King, being less than a foot away from the One Ring, rather than simply hacking off Frodo's hand or simply sending his entire sword through the little hobbit's body and effectively pulling the impaled body towards him, instead retreats because there's fire in the vicinity?

What were the two other Nazgûl doing anyways? It's not like it was a confusing situation. They stood behind him, must have known that the little hobbit wasn't going to stab them from that distance, and should instead have spotted Strider as he came out of the darkness. If the Nazgûl can't see well in the sunlight one must expect that they see alot better in the dark and so why weren't the two Nazgûl covering their Captain while he went ahead, risking his life, to retrieve the One Ring?

[Alcuin]

The best choice then would have been for Sauron to get his butt off the Dark Throne and go look for his bauble in person

Exactly. If his possession of the Ring was really that important to him, he should have gone himself.

Bad idea. If Sauron was concerned that the presence of the Ringwraiths would disturb the countryside, what would his own overwhelming presence have done? Moreover, Sauron was not without fear, as Gandalf and Aragorn observed. His enemies could have attacked him, and he would have been far afield in hostile territory. Sauron did not build up his immense power by taking long risks: he did it by taking short risks, sacrificing the lives of others, and overwhelming his opponents. He could calculate a risk quite well (e.g., going to Númenor as Ar-Pharazôn’s “prisoner�), but for him, it was all cold, hard logic, with no feeling, and no soul.

Besides, if the Wise determined that he was on the move – and they probably would have made that guess fairly quickly – they would have taken moves to counter him. As far as Sauron knew, the Wise could have known about his Ring, and taken steps to remove it to other quarters. Moreover, Saruman, who at this late stage was communicating with Sauron and cooperating with him to some degree, was also extremely unreliable as an ally: one of the main reasons Sauron used the Nazgûl was because (UT, “Hunt for the Ring�)his ordinary spies and emissaries could bring him no tidings. And this was due largely both to the vigilance of the Dúnedain and to the treachery of Saruman, whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron. Sauron was very powerful, but the very next thing in the just-cited passage says that Sauron’s “arm was not yet long enough to reach Saruman in Isengard.�

In FotR, “Council of Elrond�, Gandalf told the Council that Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.
So Sauron had to believe that, based upon the fact that Saruman had already driven him from Dol Guldur (at least Sauron feigned to retreat), and that Saruman was waylaying or misleading his servants, Saruman would also likely cooperate with the White Council one more time to keep Sauron from reaching “Shire�. He probably figured sending the Nazgûl was like sending a military special-operations force that no one had ever defeated (at least, without a might army like the Second Age Númenóreans), and he must have thought he was sure to succeed.



Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."
True, two of the three Nazgûl halted. But the Witch-King, who seems like the only Nazgûl with any real fight in him, proceeded to stab Frodo. Now, like I raised earlier, why didn't he do more? We know what happened: "[...] a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." Am I supposed to believe then that the Witch-King, being less than a foot away from the One Ring, rather than simply hacking off Frodo's hand or simply sending his entire sword through the little hobbit's body and effectively pulling the impaled body towards him, instead retreats because there's fire in the vicinity?

What were the two other Nazgûl doing anyways? It's not like it was a confusing situation. They stood behind him, must have known that the little hobbit wasn't going to stab them from that distance, and should instead have spotted Strider as he came out of the darkness. If the Nazgûl can't see well in the sunlight one must expect that they see alot better in the dark and so why weren't the two Nazgûl covering their Captain while he went ahead, risking his life, to retrieve the One Ring?
CAB might be onto the correct explanation. Tolkien’s notes on the Nazgûl make it clear they mistakenly believed that Frodo had destroyed the barrow-wight himself. He was now armed with a weapon, the barrow-blade, that probably made this kind of victory possible, even for a little guy. (Cf. Merry on Pelennor Field later on.) There were five of them, by the way, but Coffeehouse is correct that only three of them rushed Frodo. (The other two were presumably keeping anyone else from escaping, or seeing to it that the Ringbearer did not slip away in any confusion, as had already happened so many times before.) When they saw the barrow-blade, they didn’t say anything, but you can imagine them thinking, “Oh, <expletive>!� and since Black Speech and orc speech have lots of nifty naughty words, you can imagine that it was a pretty good expletive.

Frodo had borne the One Ring already for 17 years. After 17 years, the Nazgûl had probably learned quite a lot about their Rings and the powers they could summon using those Rings: as far as they knew, Frodo must have begun to use the power of the One Ring. After all, he had defeated the barrow-wight, right?

From Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark�, more of Tolkien’s notes about the Nazgûl from 196 (I:208). The Witch-kingnow knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger’. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two.
The Nazgûl have to be convinced at this point that the Ringbearer has begun to use the Ring: that must have increased Sauron’s anxiety later on. Sauron believed Aragorn had the Ring in Return of the King, which can only mean that the Heir of Isildur had forced the little Ringbearer to give up the Ruling Ring, and that he had already determined some of its powers from the creature.

After Weathertop, however, the Nazgûl figured their long chase was almost over: “the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and … cannot last more than a day or two.�

Coffeehouse, CAB, and Gordis, I believe you have all argued that the Nazgûl were reluctant hunters at one point or another. This same passage, close to its end, says of the Witch-king,Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger.

So yes, the Nazgûl were clearly reluctant to expose themselves to danger. And they were sometimes reluctant servants of Sauron, for that reason and perhaps for others.

As for why the Morgul-lord did not cut off Frodo’s hand and run off with the Ring Ã* la Gollum, he seems to have been frightened himself, and stabbing Frodo with the knife was sure to overcome him, as it had nearly always overcome every other victim for centuries upon centuries.

[Gordis]

Well, Alcuin, Re: Sauron's butt I was not entirely serious.:D

Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."
I agree completely. And note what a huge effort of will must have been required of a nazgul to attack the wielder of the One, whom the nazgul "had been conditioned to treat with servility".(L #246)

Ooh! I missed those! (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm) Thanks!

Added later

FYI, RotK, “Appendix A� says that Narmacil II was killed fighting against the Wainriders; in UT, “Cirion and Eorl� (footnote 8), Tolkien says this battle was called the Battle of the Plains. As for Argeleb I and Arveleg I, they are good candidates, and they certainly died as a result of the Witch-king’s machinations. “Appendix A� says, “Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar. ... A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, ... and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain.�

I will incorporate the information about Arveleg and a note documenting the reference to an alternate ending for Narmacil into the essay (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm). Thanks again!
You are welcome, Alcuin.
Note only that the passage about Narmakil and the WK was soon rewritten :

At this time the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) who had seized Mordor long before began to assail Ithilien. Narmakil was slain by the Sorcerer- king. Osgiliath ceased to be the seat of the kings.

This was roughly rewritten to read:
In his time it is said that the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) arose again and re-entered Mordor secretly. There they prepared in the darkness for the return of their Dark Lord. Men out of the East, a fierce people riding in great wains, came against Gondor, doubtless stirred up by Sauron and Ulairi. Narmakil slain in battle.
This was the first appearance of the Wainriders.
Tolkien postponed and postponed the relocation of the Witch-King to Mordor and the fall of Minas Ithil. Obviously, now (when these events are postponed to 1980 and 2002) the killing of Narmacil by the WK in 1856 couldn't have occurred. The WK was still quite busy in the North.;)

As for Argeleb I, perhaps he should be taken off the WK's list of victims:
Argeleb I. born 1226, lived 130 years + slain 1356. Argeleb fortifies the Weather Hills. He was slain in battle with Rhudaur (with secret aid of Angmar); the enemy tries to seize the palantir of Amon Sul.-HOME XII Now how can the aid of Angmar be termed "secret" if the King of Angmar was there in person and slew Arthedain's King? Impossible.

His son Arveleg, however, is a neat case.:cool:

[Alcuin]

Well, Alcuin, Re: Sauron's butt I was not entirely serious.:DThat’s a relief.

As for Argeleb I, perhaps he should be taken off the WK's list of victims... how can the aid of Angmar be termed "secret" if the King of Angmar was there in person and slew Arthedain's King? Impossible.“Appendix A� reads, Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar.That reads as if it were an open war, not secret war. Just because the Witch-king didn’t personally “pull the trigger� doesn’t mean he wasn’t responsible for the outcome.

[Gordis]

Oh, he was responsible all right, but he couldn't have slain Argeleb by his own hand.

[Attalus]

I believe that we have established to everyone's satisfaction that the Nazgul lacked courage. How not? Courage is a moral virtue, and of that they had none, nor did Sauron, their Master. The W-K's strike at Frodo with the Morgul-knife was obviously a mere stab at random, and we all know that "the hasty stroke goes oft astray." They then ran away from Aragorn and the Ring-bearer, hoping against hope that they had mortally wounded the latter. When it became obvious that Frodo's wound was not immediately mortal, (though it would have been, without Elrond's intervention) they tried to rush the company. I am not sure what they thought they were going to do except maybe trample them with the black horses, but it was enough to make Aragorn fly from them, and I don't blame him.

*resists impulse to make bad joke about the Black Cheek* :D

[Gordis]

I believe that we have established to everyone's satisfaction that the Nazgul lacked courage.
No we didn't :rolleyes:

How not? Courage is a moral virtue, and of that they had none, nor did Sauron, their Master.
Courage is not such a straightforward thigh as you imply, IMO.

There is suicidal courage displayed by Fingolfin, Earnur and Eowyn

There is courage of those pitted against a wall and choosing a glorious death to flight or dying to protect others: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf against Balrogs, Hurin against Morgoth, Haradrim and Easterlings dying but not surrendering at the Pelennor.

There is calculated, reasonable courage like Aragorn's (the guy didn't try to fight a balrog or knock on the gates of Barad-Dur, did he?), or Sauron's (going out to meet Huan, setting shop in the enemy Eregion, going as prisoner to Numenor, laughing from the Temple roof at the lightnings striking around him, later confronting the lords of the Alliance), or Witch-King's (who was ready to fight Earnur but not Glorfindel, to fight Gandalf when it was unavoidable, and to confront the wielder of the One Ring armed with a Barrow blade).

And there is cowardice, which is not the same as refusing to fight a much stronger opponent. The latter is wisdom and I assure you Earnur would have done much better staying at home and finding a wife, than going to Minas Morgul.

The W-K's strike at Frodo with the Morgul-knife was obviously a mere stab at random, and we all know that "the hasty stroke goes oft astray." Prove it. I have already given my opinion on the action of the Morgul blades.

They then ran away from Aragorn and the Ring-bearer, hoping against hope that they had mortally wounded the latter. Why "against hope"? In all the previous cases a Morgul wound had been lethal and it only took a few days to overcome a strong man.

[CAB]

Bad idea. If Sauron was concerned that the presence of the Ringwraiths would disturb the countryside, what would his own overwhelming presence have done? Moreover, Sauron was not without fear, as Gandalf and Aragorn observed. His enemies could have attacked him, and he would have been far afield in hostile territory. Sauron did not build up his immense power by taking long risks: he did it by taking short risks, sacrificing the lives of others, and overwhelming his opponents. He could calculate a risk quite well (e.g., going to Númenor as Ar-Pharazôn’s “prisoner�), but for him, it was all cold, hard logic, with no feeling, and no soul.

I believe I too have been misunderstood. Sure it would have been a bad idea for Sauron to pursue the Ring himself because his recovery of the Ring was not important enough to justify the risk. The Ring was not the be all and end all for Sauron. This is the point I was trying to make. If the retrieval of the Ring had (in Sauron's mind) been truly that "it all comes down to this / this is the point of victory vs defeat" crucial, then yes, I do think Sauron would have been forced to go after the Ring personally. He wasn't because, again, the Ring was only a piece of the puzzle for him.

[Alcuin]

The Morgul-knife (in the “Hunt for the Ring� MSS Tolkien calls it “Mordor-knife�) was not meant to kill its victims immediately. It reduced them to wraiths under the control of the Nazgûl. They were terrible weapons: a person struck by such a weapon faced a horrific fate unless he could find someone who could quickly and completely remove all the fragments of the blade. That’s how long the “Hunt for the Ring� MSS says men “marked� with these weapons lasted before succumbing to its effects.

For the record, Boromir I, Ruling Steward of Gondor 2477–2489, died youngest of all the Ruling Stewards because he was struck by a Morgul-knife in war with Minas Morgul in Ithilien in 2475. Note that not only was he cured, but the Council of Gondor still trusted him to be Ruling Steward; however, “he became shrunken with pain and died�. But the fact that he lived at all indicates that he must immediately have received the very best treatment available in Minas Tirith.

Without proper treatment, victims and their friends and families faced a horrible choice. In one or two days, the person would become a wraith. Or perhaps he could commit suicide, or his friends or family could kill him. Lovely choices for Faithful Dúnedain.

Killing immediately with a Morgul-knife is wasting the weapon. Wound, don’t kill is the rule.

-|-

In regards to Sauron chasing the Ring himself, my comments are only semi-directed at you, Gordis and CAB. This idea pops up from time to time, but it quickly falls apart under examination. You did both seem to be half in jest. I seem to have be a little short in appreciating irony. No offense intended, and none taken, I hope.

[CAB]

I believe that we have established to everyone's satisfaction that the Nazgul lacked courage.

No we didn't :rolleyes:

Well, I am not ready to debate the meaning of courage, but I don't see the Nazgul as cowards. They didn't love Sauron. He trapped them (horribly). They almost certainly hated him as much as is humanly (wraith-lly?) possible. Why would their refusal to lay down their lives for someone like Sauron make them cowards? They weren't protecting anyone. The was no "great cause" they were fighting for. I have a tough time seeing cowardice in such a situation.

[Attalus]

No we didn't :rolleyes:


Courage is not such a straightforward thigh as you imply, IMO.

There is suicidal courage displayed by Fingolfin, Earnur and Eowyn

There is courage of those pitted against a wall and choosing a glorious death to flight or dying to protect others: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf against Balrogs, Hurin against Morgoth, Haradrim and Easterlings dying but not surrendering at the Pelennor.

There is calculated, reasonable courage like Aragorn's (the guy didn't try to fight a balrog or knock on the gates of Barad-Dur, did he?), or Sauron's (going out to meet Huan, setting shop in the enemy Eregion, going as prisoner to Numenor, laughing from the Temple roof at the lightnings striking around him, later confronting the lords of the Alliance), or Witch-King's (who was ready to fight Earnur but not Glorfindel, to fight Gandalf when it was unavoidable, and to confront the wielder of the One Ring armed with a Barrow blade).

And there is cowardice, which is not the same as refusing to fight a much stronger opponent. The latter is wisdom and I assure you Earnur would have done much better staying at home and finding a wife, than going to Minas Morgul. This may or not be true, but I would be happier with some examples of courage in the Nazgul.

Prove it. I have already given my opinion on the action of the Morgul blades. Easy. We have Gandalf's testimony that "They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, they would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command." TFotR, "Many Meetings," p. 216.


Why "against hope"? In all the previous cases a Morgul wound had been lethal and it only took a few days to overcome a strong man."Hoping against hope" is an old English saying, meaning, "hoping all wiill turn out well despite the distinct possibility that it will not," as in this case. See Alcuin's post for another case, which unfortunately Elrond was not around to treat. As we surgeons say, surgery is the best treatment because it seperates the patient from the disese.

[CAB]

Killing immediately with a Morgul-knife is wasting the weapon. Wound, don’t kill is the rule.


Easy. We have Gandalf's testimony that "They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, they would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command." TFotR, "Many Meetings," p. 216.

Gordis has argued before that if a Morgul-knife is stabbed into the heart, then the victim becomes a wraith immediately. I don't remember her logic, but I think I can take a guess at it. The Witch King clearly intended, from the start, to use the Morgul-blade on Frodo at Weathertop. To intend to do so, knowing that the effects would take days, in the middle of the wilderness, with Frodo's companions at hand, with Gandalf in the neighborhood, etc., etc.,... anyway this would be pointless and stupid. It makes much more sense if he was intending to make Frodo a wraith on the spot. I think this is more or less Gordis's line of thought (if not, my apologies, Gordis).



No offense intended, and none taken, I hope.
Not at all. My posts just aren't as clear as I would like. What really kills me is that we have several members on this site for whom English is a second (or third, etc.) language, yet they are able to use it better than I (a native speaker) do. Very annoying. :D

[Gordis]

Gordis has argued before that if a Morgul-knife is stabbed into the heart, then the victim becomes a wraith immediately. I don't remember her logic, but I think I can take a guess at it. The Witch King clearly intended, from the start, to use the Morgul-blade on Frodo at Weathertop. To intend to do so, knowing that the effects would take days, in the middle of the wilderness, with Frodo's companions at hand, with Gandalf in the neighborhood, etc., etc.,... anyway this would be pointless and stupid. It makes much more sense if he was intending to make Frodo a wraith on the spot. I think this is more or less Gordis's line of thought (if not, my apologies, Gordis).
Nay, CAB - I am afraid I was not clear enough.
I believe that if a Morgul-kinfe is stabbed right through the heart the victim is KILLED immediately: the body becomes useless and the soul departs to Mandos. There will be no wraith left.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.

Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.
That must be the meaning of :"They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound."

Wound, not Kill, as Alcuin says.


This may or not be true, but I would be happier with some examples of courage in the Nazgul. Please:
Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.
'But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.
'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry.Note, Earnur was the best fighter in Gondor:
Eärnur [...]was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king
That is from the Appendices, as for LOTR text you remember the WK was ready to take on Gandalf at the Gate, he killed Theoden and dispersed the Rohirrim. In both cases he didn't ask another nazgul to help him.

[CAB]

Nay, CAB - I am afraid I was not clear enough.
I believe that if a Morgul-kinfe is stabbed right through the heart the victim is KILLED immediately: the body becomes useless and the soul departs to Mandos. There will be no wraith left.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.

Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.
That must be the meaning of :"They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound."

Wound, not Kill, as Alcuin says.

Hmm…I guess I am misremembering things. How then do you explain the Witch King's intent to use the Morgul-blade immediately, before dealing with Frodo's companions?

[Gordis]

Hmm…I guess I am misremembering things. How then do you explain the Witch King's intent to use the Morgul-blade immediately, before dealing with Frodo's companions?

Companions? Perhaps they intended to kill them all, but were foiled by sight of Barrow-blades and torches. Anyway, the companions would be unable to help the victim. They may kill him though... but then the Ring will get the new, even less experienced owner.

I guess the nazgul were worried that the experienced Ringbearer claims the Ring and starts to give orders. Then the matter would come to a standstill, as described in #246, and Sauron's direct intervention would be needed. That's why they came straight for Frodo ignoring the others.

Note, CAB, I do think that the WK had missed when hitting Frodo's shoulder instead of his chest. But still I don't think he wanted to hit directly the heart.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

On your last point, Gordis, I think that's a minor distinction anyway. Had WiKi missed in the other direction and killed Frodo by mistake, I don't think he'd have been all that heartbroken, even though the goal was more likely capture. That he missed and struck only the shoulder gave Frodo just enough time, barely, to reach Rivendell and its Elvish surgeons.

[Attalus]

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.


Um, not true, unless the missle or blade disrupts the Purkinje system. If untreated, a large enough heart wound to cause leakage, but not enough to disrupt its motions, causes death by hemopericardium, the collection of blood in the unexpandable sac that surround the heart and not allowing blood to enter the heart.. I, myself, have treated stab wounds to the heart that were nonfatal by draining the pericardium, and stuck large-bore needles into the heart to inject epinephrine without killing the patient. I have assisted in two surgeries where missle weapons were removed from the heart, and both patients lived. I think that was the object of the breakable tip of the Morgul-knife, to take control of the individual. Can't you take Gandalf's word for it? Granted, he is not infallible, but I suspect his knowlege, here is based on direct observation.

[Nautipus]

As we surgeons say, surgery is the best treatment because it seperates the patient from the disese.

One could start a thread based on that comment.:D (juuust a joke. everybody stay calm.)

[Attalus]

One could start a thread based on that comment.:D (juuust a joke. everybody stay calm.)We also say "Cold steel is the best deal." :D

[Gordis]

Um, not true, unless the missle or blade disrupts the Purkinje system. If untreated, a large enough heart wound to cause leakage, but not enough to disrupt its motions, causes death by hemopericardium, the collection of blood in the unexpandable sac that surround the heart and not allowing blood to enter the heart..
Well, thanks, I will take your word for that.:)

I, myself, have treated stab wounds to the heart that were nonfatal by draining the pericardium, and stuck large-bore needles into the heart to inject epinephrine without killing the patient. I have assisted in two surgeries where missle weapons were removed from the heart, and both patients lived.
But could something like that be done in medieval times or even say in 19th century? Just curious....

[Attalus]

But could something like that be done in medieval times or even say in 19th century? Just curious....Certainly in the late nineteenth century. Medievally, no, though Elrond's Operation would not have been done in the Middle Ages, either.

[Gordis]

Thanks, it is very interesting. :)

[Alcuin]

Certainly in the late nineteenth century. Medievally, no, though Elrond's Operation would not have been done in the Middle Ages, either.Modern surgery may have begun with Dr. Ephraim McDowell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim_McDowell) of Danville, Kentucky, who performed the first successful ovariotomy in 1809. McDowell pioneered the use of ether as an anesthetic and used dilute nitric acid aerosol on wounds as a disinfectant. Unlike most nineteenth-century surgeons, McDowell tried to keep his surgery and equipment clean. (Nineteenth-century surgeons are supposed to have been notorious for reusing dirty equipment and even blood-stained garments.)

I learned about McDowell when I was asked to research what surgery he performed on young James K. Polk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_K._Polk). At the time (autumn 1978), historians had forgotten not only what surgery was performed, but who had done it. After several days in the bowels of Vanderbilt Library, I was able to determine both, not from any biography of Polk, but from a biography of McDowell. Oddly, though, the surgery I found documented 30 years ago (appendectomy) is no longer the treatment reported today.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I always envisioned Elrond using some sort of magnet inserted through a small incision to remove the shard from Frodo. As a non-surgeon a magnet makes sense to me. What does the Moot's resident surgeon think of that possibility?

[Attalus]

Foreign bodies, even with the advent of fluoroscopy, can be a pain. The trouble with them is that they are always deeper than you think/hope they are, and there are all sorts of things that can give you a solid feel when you are probing. You dare not just go ripping out every thing that goes "click" on your instrument, or you may damage vital structures, or even just useful ones (arteries, veins, small nerves) Magnets don't help, except in the eye, and not always then. The best thing is to make an adequate incision ("they heal from side to side, not from end to end," my old Chief used to say) :D and then go down layer by layer, looking for color changes and/or changes in density. I have always pictured Elrond as making several attempts, each time in a different direction, until he struck, er, steel. How well I know the feeling!

[Nautipus]

We also say "Cold steel is the best deal." :D

I've gotta say (being surrounded by surgeons: Dad, mom, friends) I here some funny stuff from time to time, but never that.:D