Gondor's sea power / Middle Earth economics

[CAB]

I have wondered for a while now about the role of sea power in the ancient world. Obviously, boats from long past couldn't project power on land as modern ships do (via guns, missiles, etc.), so what made them so important?

A little while ago, I finally (I am one lazy bum :D )did some reading about the rise of sea power in the Mediterranean, and got my answer. Military ships existed, first and foremost, to protect or prey upon other ships. Their importance was tied, to a very large degree, to the importance of sea-going trade. Considering that some cities (I think Athens and Rome are good examples) became dependent on food delivered by ship to feed their populations, the potential power of navies becomes very apparent.

So, to my questions. Doesn't Gondor's, along with it's southern neighbors', possession of navies essentially prove that those neighbors, and likely Gondor itself, depended on sea-going trade? Since there are few other potential coastal trading partners, doesn't it suggest that Gondor itself probably engaged in significant trade with these other countries?

[Gordis]

A very interesting thread, CAB! :)

Military ships existed, first and foremost, to protect or prey upon other ships. Their importance was tied, to a very large degree, to the importance of sea-going trade. Considering that some cities (I think Athens and Rome are good examples) became dependent on food delivered by ship to feed their populations, the potential power of navies becomes very apparent.
I am not sure about Mediterranean basin, but I am a bit more familiar with the Carribean Sea situation in 1600-1700. There were pirates who had land bases and prowled on Spanish, British, French and Dutch colonies and their trade ships. However, really huge prizes the pirates got not by attacking the shipping, but attacking enemy sea ports: pillaging them and also getting ransom money. Maracaibo was pillaged several times ( by l'Olonnais, Morgan and also some others, I believe). The list is long: Morgan pillaged Panama, Puerto Principe etc; Drake also made a fortune pillaging on land. Sure, some good money he made attacking Spanish Silver Train ships, but still all told land pillage was more lucrative, I believe.

Now, if we return to ME, we have Umbar and Black Numenorean harbors (situated to the south of it) versus Gondor. The Wave of the Downfall washed away most of Pelargir and I guess all the significant shipping was destroyed. The same happened with Lond Daer Ened. The same likely happened with the southern ports, but not with Umbar. Umbar was a great natural harbor, protected from the sea by high cliffs. So, after the Downfall we see the situation when the Black Numenoreans likely got more ships than the Faithful, who maybe had only 5 warships brought by Isildur and Anarion from Numenor.

There are no accounts of naval battles during the Last Alliance. Likely, after Isildur's ships had decayed from age, Gondor didn't build new ones. For about 900 years Gondor seemed uninterested in navy. Did they have merchant fleet? Unlikely, at least not on a large scale - because the merchant ships would be attacked from Umbar and Gondor would feel the need to build navy much sooner. Likely at the time all the trade along the coasts was carried out by Umbarians. It doesn't seem that the relationships between Gondor and Umbar were too bad during the most part of the first millennium of the Third Age. Tarannon even married a lady from Umbar, Beruthiel.

Yet the "divorce" with Beruthiel likely led to complete quarrel with Umbar. And here the Umbarian navy and trade ships (acting as privateers) likely started assaulting and pillaging costal towns in Gondor. Then the Kings dropped all other matters and started to build the navy, becoming Sea-Kings. After the capture of Umbar by Gondor around TA 1000, most of the sea trade was likely done by Gondoreans. All was well till the Kin-Strife, when Castamir's sons not only deserted to Umbar but also likely took with them most of the Gondor fleet. And again, the situation returned to that before Tarannon.

[Valandil]

I think the main function of Gondor's navies initially (that is, starting with the line of Ship Kings), was to ferry armies along the coast, and thereby expand Gondor's power and influence. In and of itself, this made a military force MUCH more mobile. This is even demonstrated long after the Ship Kings - when Earnil sends an army of Gondor under Earnur by sea to Lindon.

Eventually there may have been ship-to-ship battles (but is there any direct evidence of them - esp in the age of the Ship Kings?). This would not have arisen when Gondor had no rival at sea (or else - when Gondor was no rival to another sea power). It could be that Umbar itself had lost the need for naval power in the early years of the Third Age. Or - it could be that Gondor's Ship Kings set out to challenge the sea power that Umbar represented, ca 800 Third Age.

I think Gondor could have had a good deal of trade by sea along its own coasts - and also north and west to its sister kingdom of Arnor. There were certainly times when the trade winds also blew south - but mostly when the lands to the south were at peace with Gondor, or when Umbar was under Gondor's influence. Otherwise, trading ships would have been in danger - from both navies.

[Gordis]

I think the main function of Gondor's navies initially (that is, starting with the line of Ship Kings), was to ferry armies along the coast, and thereby expand Gondor's power and influence. In and of itself, this made a military force MUCH more mobile. This is even demonstrated long after the Ship Kings - when Earnil sends an army of Gondor under Earnur by sea to Lindon.
Sorry, but it is rather an example of a military force made less mobile, and very slow to gather.

King Araphant continued with dwindling strength to hold off the assaults of Angmar, and Arvedui when he succeeded did likewise; but at last in the autumn of 1973 messages came to Gondor that Arthedain was in great straits, and that the Witch-king was preparing a last stroke against it. Then Eärnil sent his son Eärnur north with a fleet, as swiftly as he could, and with as great strength as he could spare. Too late. Before Eärnur reached the havens of Lindon, the Witch-king had conquered Arthedain and Arvedui had perished.-App A
Sure,two years for the fleet to gather is rather swift. Numenor needed 5 years back in SA 1695. What in Arda was the purpose of sending the army to Arnor by sea? There was a very nice road through the Gap of Calenardhon, via Tharbad to Bree to Fornost. The army could have arrived in two month, instead of two years.:p

[Willow Oran]

Wouldn't the land route have taken them through disputed territory? In doing so they would have exposed not just their soldiers but their supply trains to Angmar's forces. Gondor's forces might have suffered much heavier losses and still been too late to save Arthedain.

In going by sea they ensured that all movements of their forces took place far from the actual war, meaning they gave Angmar the opportunity to believe they wouldn't come, giving them a slight advantage of surprise when they did come and allowing them to drive Angmar out of Arthedain. Gondor would likely have seen Arvedui as a lost cause at that point, saving him wasn't their concern, and the land wasn't going anywhere, they could re-take that if it was conquered. Knowing that, it makes sense that they opted for the strategically safer sea-route.

In Medditerenean history sea-routes have almost always been preferred to land routes. It's very difficult to move large quantities of people and goods over land and the difficulty increases in mountainous terrain, which, if I remember the map correctly, a significant portion of Middle Earth is. Even with the possibilities of storms and pirates, going by sea would have been the easier method of traveling.

[Count Comfect]

The key advantage of sea power (before the early modern era, when transoceanic shipping became a major part of sea power) has always been logistical and strategic, as Willow implies. Your supply lines are much easier to cut when the enemy can simply ride down from the mountains/out of the forest and burn a baggage train than when you have heavily armed ships moving goods and men. It is much less likely that you will run into a hostile force by accident on the sea, or that your men will be harried by guerrillas. And the sea provides a neutral access point; violating neutral land territory is strategically dangerous in ways that sailing through even coastal waters is not. You can anger your allies, or neutral nations. Also, going across land tends to result in accidental pillage and strife even without the intervention of an opposing force.

Additionally, Willow is quite correct about mountains - they make efficient land travel very difficult for an army, and supply even more so. The sea may sometimes be slower if you must gather the ships, but it is much more secure.

[Alcuin]

The original impetus for the Númenórean fleet was exploration: Aldarion returned to Middle-earth to explore. Trade quickly became the primary focus of Númenórean activity for the next thousand years: trade between Lindon and Armenelos, and also between the Númenóreans and the Men of the Twilight. A few Númenóreans seem to have returned to Middle-earth as colonists, but very few.

After the War between the Elves and Sauron, which ended in II 1700, Númenórean trade spread rapidly all along the coast of Middle-earth, with the establishment of “dominions” along the coast after II 1800. These “dominions” would be Númenórean colonies, trading harbors, or native kingdoms under the domination of Númenor, all classic Imperialism. “Umbar is made into a great fortress of Númenor” in II 2280, and Pelargir was founded in II 2350: both of these events took place under the reign of Tar-Atanamir.

The destruction of Númenor created a tsunami that wrecked most of the Númenórean harbors. It is possible that Umbar and Lindon were spared to some degree because of their natural harborage, and the same might also be true of Edhellond, the port associated with Dol Amroth. Before writing off Pelargir, you should consider that it was 100 miles inland along the Anduin: it is likely that Pelargir of all the Númenórean or Elvish ports except Tharbad, which was also an inland port, fared best. (Mithlond and Harlond along the Lhûn in Lindon might also have survived, but from the maps, they appear to be far more exposed than Pelargir and especially Tharbad, where the only technical problem should have been clearing the mouth of the Gwathló at Vinyalondë.)

We know very little about the Númenórean ports and cities south of Umbar in the Second Age, except that there were apparently more of them and they were more heavily populated than those in the north: in other words, there are more Dúnedain communities we don’t know about than those that we do: the Faithful Númenóreans, whose descendents we meet in Lord of the Rings, were the minority party of Númenórean religion, culture, and politics. Most the of the other party, the King’s Men, the Black Númenóreans of the Third Age, were killed in the disastrous assault on Valinor near the end of the Second Age that led directly to the ruin of Númenor: the southern Númenórean cities seem to have been severely depopulated as a result.

All that to say this: the primary purpose in the Second Age for the Númenórean fleet was unquestionably trade, and the secondary purpose was military. The whole fleet, both merchant and military, was simply enormous by the end of the Second Age. A significant portion of the Black Númenórean (King’s Men) fleet was probably committed to the assault on Valinor and thus lost, and more of it was lost in the tsunami that followed. The Faithful did not commit any of their part of the merchant fleet to the assault, nor were any military vessels in their possession likely committed to that scheme. Since they were mostly in the northwest of Middle-earth, and since Pelargir and Tharbad and possibly Lindon probably survived the tsunami better than the rest of the western coastlands, it was the Faithful who were likely in possession of the only intact fleet at the end of the Second Age, as well as the only intact command-and-control for any military activity.

It was over 100 years from the founding of the Dúnedain kingdoms-in-exile, Arnor and Gondor, until the outbreak of the War of the Last Alliance. During this time, the Faithful Dúnedain probably sailed south to see what was left of the other Númenórean colonies. In the event, the Black Númenóreans held to their alliance with Sauron, and their armies (and navies, perhaps) were destroyed in the war.

During the Third Age, there seems to have been significant trade between Arnor and Gondor for many centuries. Tharbad continued to be an important inland port, and the two kingdoms maintained the ancient bridge and causeway together: this is an important point, because who-pays-for-what is always a sticking point in such agreements, and the two kingdoms managed to not only keep only the passage, but to avoid fighting for control over the complex. Tharbad was finally rendered impassable until III 2912, almost 1000 years after the end of the North Kingdom, when Bilbo was 22 years old, and only 107 years before Aragorn refounded the Reunited Kingdom!

In an unnumbered, asterisked footnote to “Appendix D: The Port of Lond Daer” of “History Of Galadriel And Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien makes it clear that the Faithful Númenóreans never stopped trading by sea.In the early days of [Arnor and Gondor], the most expeditious route from one to the other (except for great armaments) was found to be by sea to [Lond Daer] and so to the riverport of Tharbad, and thence by the Road. The ancient sea-port [was] ruinous, but with long labour a port [for] seagoing vessels had been made at Tharbad, and a fort raised there … to guard the once famed Bridge of Tharbad. The ancient port was one of the earliest ports of the Númenóreans, begun by … Tar-Aldarion, and later enlarged and fortified. It was called Lond Daer Enedh, the Great Middle Haven (as being between Lindon in the North and Pelargir on the Anduin).

The four Ship-kings of Gondor were probably in pursuit of the same ends as their Númenórean forebears: trade first, power projection next. The marriage of Tarannon Falastur to Berúthiel was almost certainly a dynastic marriage to unite some remnant of the House of Elros in Middle-earth, as Gordis has suggested before. Absorbing the House of Elros into the House of Elendil would solidify any claims by Falastur (Sindarin for “Coast-lord”) to rule the whole of what were formerly Númenórean colonies and trading centers all along the coast south of Umbar. Trade with the these colonies would make Gondor rich, cement its political and military power, and make the House of Anárion ascendant over the elder House of Isildur, to which it legally owed fealty, a fact that the less numerous and militarily weaker Isildurioni never forgot.

The wars of the Ship-kings apparently not only defeated the southern kingdoms and city-states, but gave the folk of Gondor trading rights to their ports. According to Appendix A of RotK, Atanatar II Alcarin, son of the last Ship-king, lived in great splendor, … [b]ut … loved ease and did nothing to maintain the power that he had inherited… The waning of Gondor had already begun before he died, and was doubtless observed by its enemies. The watch upon Mordor was neglected.

By neglecting its trading rights and privileges, along with ignoring threats to its southern sphere of influence, no doubt won by hard fighting and the loss of many men, Gondor’s wealth ceased to grow. There is no mention of piracy against Gondor from the southern ports until the sons of Castamir the Usurper and their adherents decamped to Umbar a year after their defeat at the Crossings of Erui in III 1447. It is after this that the Corsairs of Umbar are first mentioned, becoming a more or less permanent threat to Gondor: The strong implication is that there was no great threat to Gondor by sea before their civil war, but there was a considerable threat after the navy of Gondor was split, with the greater part moving to Umbar in defiance of Eldacar and his descendents. Tolkien writes in Appendix A that after the sons of Castamir fled to Umbar from the Seige of Pelargir in III 1448,Umbar remained at war with Gondor for many lives of men, a threat to its coastlands and to all traffic on the sea.

Along with trade along the coastlands, we should also consider inland and near-coastal trade with Umbar along the old South Gondor Road, trade along the Anduin with the people of Rhovanion. Trade with the Easterlings also took place despite their many wars with Gondor: the Boromir’s horn, the Horn of Vorondil, was made from “the wild kine of Araw in the far fields of Rhûn.” (Denethor in “Minas Tirith”, RotK)

As for movement of the Army of Gondor to Arthedain, remember two things. First, Gondor had just fought a war against the Wainriders that nearly wiped out the Southern Kingdom just a few years before. Even though the Wainrider army had been destroyed, there may still have been roving bands of brigands in Rhovanion and the Vales of Anduin. The most direct route would have been through Calenardhon and thus through Eriador, crossing at Tharbad; however, that would have entailed a massive baggage train vulnerable to assault, and it would have meant that the principal forces of the allies – the army of Gondor and the combined army of Lindon and the remnant of Arnor – would have been split, with the powerful army of Angmar in between them, along with the strong possibility that they might have found Tharbad held against them, leaving the whole enterprise in ruins. That leaves the best means of transport to Arnor by sea.

While we’re discussing Gondor, we should also note that Arnor’s best access to the sea should have been through Lindon and the ports along the Lhûn. The Eldar living in Lindon did not seem to want to participate in trade with Men, nor do they seem to want to have been bothered with Men and their doings, it would seem: commerce is unfortunately still seen by many folks as beneath them. Arnor’s only active port was Tharbad: they did not open any other ports along the Gwathló in Cardolan.

[Valandil]

Sorry, but it is rather an example of a military force made less mobile, and very slow to gather.


Sure,two years for the fleet to gather is rather swift. Numenor needed 5 years back in SA 1695. What in Arda was the purpose of sending the army to Arnor by sea? There was a very nice road through the Gap of Calenardhon, via Tharbad to Bree to Fornost. The army could have arrived in two month, instead of two years.:p

I don't think Gondor's slowness had to do with their means of travel.

I think they either underestimated the threat to Arthedain, or else were not particularly desirous of saving it (although defeating Angmar was still seen as a positive).

[Alcuin]

Sorry, but it is rather an example of a military force made less mobile, and very slow to gather.


Sure,two years for the fleet to gather is rather swift. Numenor needed 5 years back in SA 1695. What in Arda was the purpose of sending the army to Arnor by sea? There was a very nice road through the Gap of Calenardhon, via Tharbad to Bree to Fornost. The army could have arrived in two month, instead of two years.
I don't think Gondor's slowness had to do with their means of travel.

I think they either underestimated the threat to Arthedain, or else were not particularly desirous of saving it (although defeating Angmar was still seen as a positive).

I don’t think Eärnil was prepared to respond in III 1973, nor did the folk of Gondor realize what danger the fall of Arnor meant for them.

From RotK, “Appendix A�, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion�

...Arvedui heir of Araphant wedded FÃ*riel daughter of Ondoher [in III 1940]. But neither kingdom was able to send help to the other; for Angmar renewed its attack upon Arthedain at the same time as the Wainriders reappeared in great force.

Ondohir of Gondor and both his sons were killed by the Wainriders, and Arvedui claimed the throne through FÃ*riel, but after a one-year interregnum, the Council of Gondor gave the scepter to the victorious general Eärnil II.


[Eärnil] sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he received the crown of Gondor, …. “but I do not forget the loyalty of Arnor, nor deny our kinship, nor wish that the realms of Elendil should be estranged. I will send to your aid when you have need, so far as I am able.�

It was, however, long before Eärnil felt himself sufficiently secure to do as he promised. …Araphant [Arvedui’s father, who lived until III 1964] continued with dwindling strength to hold off the assaults of Angmar, and Arvedui … did likewise; … in the autumn of 1973 messages came to Gondor that Arthedain was in great straits, and that the Witch-king was preparing a last stroke against it. Then Eärnil sent his son Eärnur north with a fleet, as swiftly as he could, and with as great strength as he could spare. Too late. Before Eärnur reached the havens of Lindon, the Witch-king had conquered Arthedain and Arvedui had perished.

…when Eärnur came …there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harborage, though … Harlond and … Forlond … were filled; and from them descended an army of power… Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor.

Much of the munitions (such as arrows, bolts, swords, spears. and artillery and machines, such as catapults, crossbows, known to both the ancient Chinese and the ancient Romans, who called them scorpio); had to be repaired, rebuilt, or requisitioned. Food, provender, water, beer, and wine (water was little used in the ancient world without wine because of the risk of parasitic and other infections) all had to be packed for transport. This was not a direct threat to Gondor, and Tolkien says that, “to most men in Gondor, the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing�, so the people required for the expedition – perhaps a few thousand, from the tone of the material – had to be convinced to go. Most no doubt required pay and allowances: after all, this was an expensive undertaking for the common citizen, and besides preparation, he would likely miss one or two seasons of planting and harvest (or fishing or forestry), and his family had to be cared for in his absence. This outlay was a further burden, because Gondor had expended an enormous sum in fighting off the Wainriders just 30 years earlier.

The idea that it took one-and-a-half years to raise, equip, provender and transport an expeditionary force is not unreasonable. Arvedui called for military assistance in the autumn of III 1973. Fornost fell sometime in 1974, and Arvedui, isolated in the North Downs and separated from the survivors of his people on the other side of the Lhûn, fled north to the Icebay of Forochel. Arvedui died with CÃ*rdan’s Elven sailors in March of 1975, which could have been either late winter or earliest spring. The text seems to me to indicate that Eärnur arrived in Lindon shortly thereafter.

The earliest possible time the call for assistance could have been sent was September 21, III 1973, but possibly as late as mid-December. Arvedui’s ship sank 15-18 months later. It probably took the ships of Gondor several weeks to sail up the coast (over 1700 miles, according to my ruler, about 2 weeks in the very best conditions, sailing full crew day and night at 5-8 knots, which would have been unlikely with a large force that might become separated; or about 4-6 weeks under normal conditions). They would not have sailed in the dead of winter because of storms, so we can assume that the earliest that the force of Gondor could have arrived was probably early spring 1975.

Like Valandil, I think Eärnil’s greatest problem was probably convincing his countrymen to go to the aid of Arthedain.

[Gordis]

I don't think Gondor's slowness had to do with their means of travel.
I think they either underestimated the threat to Arthedain, or else were not particularly desirous of saving it (although defeating Angmar was still seen as a positive).
Exactly. The Gondorians were not particularly desirous of saving Arvedui, IMO. They planned to delay their intervention until after Arvedui would be dealt with. The easiest way to do this and to save face was to choose a mode of transportation that needed a lot of time to prepare: the fleet.

Arvedui called for military assistance in the autumn of III 1973. Fornost fell sometime in 1974, and Arvedui, isolated in the North Downs and separated from the survivors of his people on the other side of the Lhûn, fled north to the Icebay of Forochel. Arvedui died with CÃ*rdan’s Elven sailors in March of 1975, which could have been either late winter or earliest spring. The text seems to me to indicate that Eärnur arrived in Lindon shortly thereafter.

The earliest possible time the call for assistance could have been sent was September 21, III 1973, but possibly as late as mid-December. Arvedui’s ship sank 15-18 months later. It probably took the ships of Gondor several weeks to sail up the coast (over 1700 miles, according to my ruler, about 2 weeks in the very best conditions, sailing full crew day and night at 5-8 knots, which would have been unlikely with a large force that might become separated; or about 4-6 weeks under normal conditions). They would not have sailed in the dead of winter because of storms, so we can assume that the earliest that the force of Gondor could have arrived was probably early spring 1975.

It is important to remember that Arvedui had 2 Palantiri with him at Forochel- and it is very likely that he used the big Amon Sul stone to reiterate his demands for help from Gondor. He couldn't contact Lindon, but he could and likely did contact Minas Anor. So Earnil was very much aware of Arvedui's plight and maybe of his plan to go to Lindon on the Elven ship. So Earnil could wait with sending the fleet to Lindon until the moment when both stones of the North became permanently blank. So, as Arvedui drowned in March 1975 (App. A), the fleet likely arrived in Lindon around May-June 1975, if not later.

Like Valandil, I think Eärnil’s greatest problem was probably convincing his countrymen to go to the aid of Arthedain. It is not like he needed to convince anybody (except maybe his Council). Gondor was never a democratic state. The King orders, the men obey. As for the necessity to intervene, it had to become apparent once the Witch-King became King at Fornost. Gondor could never permit to have such a strong enemy on her northern borders. It would have been suicidal.

[Coffeehouse]

The earliest possible time the call for assistance could have been sent was September 21, III 1973, but possibly as late as mid-December. Arvedui’s ship sank 15-18 months later. It probably took the ships of Gondor several weeks to sail up the coast (over 1700 miles, according to my ruler, about 2 weeks in the very best conditions, sailing full crew day and night at 5-8 knots, which would have been unlikely with a large force that might become separated; or about 4-6 weeks under normal conditions). They would not have sailed in the dead of winter because of storms, so we can assume that the earliest that the force of Gondor could have arrived was probably early spring 1975.

Perhaps it took the Gondorian ships several weeks. Perhaps it took months. It would depend on the trade winds and currents. For all we know the trade winds went due south, leaving a massive Gondorian fleet struggling in headwind all the way to Lindon, having to tack either along the coast or possibly sail further out to sea and coming back in towards Lindon from not the south, but the west. For the Gondorian fleet to tack all along the coast would risk it being spotted, and hence its moment of surprise lost. A longer, but safer route would then be to take the longer sea-route. That raises the question though, as to what kind of ships they used. What kind of sailing technology did the Gondorians have that would have permitted speeds up to 5-8 knots, which is a breath-taking speed for sailing large transport vessels?

[Willow Oran]

It is not like he needed to convince anybody (except maybe his Council). Gondor was never a democratic state. The King orders, the men obey.

Convincing the council alone could have taken a very long time, especially given that Earnil was appointed king, not born to the role. The Council gave him the power, if they disapproved of something there is no reason why they wouldn't hold that over him.

Also, the opinion of the general population would matter. The King can give all the orders he likes, but if the people don't accept him as king, and there would have been a portion of the population, perhaps a significant portion, who would have disapproved of Earnil's appointment and maybe even seen his call to another war as confirmation of their doubts about him, then there's no gurantee that they'll obey.

What's more, if he was calling them to war on the basis of "we need to liberate Arnor from this tryant who's taking over and killing our kinsmen," he wouldn't be able to overtly force anyone to obey him without appearing to be a tyrant himself.

[Alcuin]

It ... is very likely that [Arvedui] used the [Palantiri] to reiterate his demands for help from Gondor. He couldn't contact Lindon, but he could and likely did contact Minas Anor. So Earnil was very much aware of Arvedui's plight and maybe of his plan to go to Lindon on the Elven ship. So Earnil could wait with sending the fleet to Lindon until the moment when both stones of the North became permanently blank.

I don’t think we can reasonably ascribe ignoble or underhanded motivations to Eärnil. IMO, Tolkien makes it plain that, although Eärnil had been given the crown in stead of Arvedui, he harbored neither animosity nor ill will toward his royal northern kinsman. If there was a problem, it was that to the Gondorians, “the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing”. The implication is that they did not react to the potential demise of Arnor with anything like the vigor they did when their own country was at stake, and while the ultimate implications for Gondor if Arnor were lost Eärnil and his counselors no doubt understood, it was at best a very distant threat not fulfilled for another millennium, and may have been insufficient to build a fire under them to proceed faster, if in fact they did not proceed at best speed anyway.

All the same, I think you underestimate the labor and logistics required to launch a seaborne expedition with the kind of Dark Age or medieval technology that Tolkien describes in his writings. During the Roman Civil Wars between Caesar and Pompey, for example, it regularly required many months to launch seaborne ventures at much closer range in the Mediterranean which, while still a famously stormy sea in its own right, is not subject to the kinds of intensely violent storms (like hurricanes) that mariners upon the Atlantic sometimes endure. In the Middle Ages, it took nearly a year-and-a-half to prepare the First Crusade, and another year to reach Constantinople. And, as I pointed out, Gondor had suffered a devastating war only a generation earlier, and the country had sat upon the edge of a knife while they sought for a year to avoid another civil war over the succession.



Convincing the council alone could have taken a very long time, especially given that Earnil was appointed king, not born to the role. The Council gave him the power, if they disapproved of something there is no reason why they wouldn't hold that over him.

Also, the opinion of the general population would matter. The King can give all the orders he likes, but if the people don't accept him as king, and there would have been a portion of the population, perhaps a significant portion, who would have disapproved of Earnil's appointment and maybe even seen his call to another war as confirmation of their doubts about him, then there's no gurantee that they'll obey.

I’m in the same camp, W.O. Mardil the Steward was instrumental in Eärnil’s succession, treading a fine line politically in Gondor. Eärnil’s succession was a political compromise, and while I am somewhat suspicious of Mardil – Eärnil made the office of Steward hereditary for Mardil and his descendents (which proved fortuitous when Eärnur took off for Minas Morgul) – but it might well have been that the nobility of Gondor, many of whom were undoubtedly related to the royal house and so apparently made their own claims to the throne, may have been in some disarray even after Eärnil was crowned. Tolkien wrote at one point that while a Númenórean sovereign ruled as monarch, he was bound by law and tradition to pay heed to his Council, so the Council of Gondor had considerable sway over any decision Eärnil might reach.

Finally, if there was any suspicion or political intrigue still running 30 years after the succession, as is not unlikely, the decision to go to the succor of Arthedain might have been controversial either practically or conveniently for one or another of the factions of nobility. Gondor’s political solidarity at the end of the Third Age under Denethor II was surely driven as much by expediency – Sauron would kill or enslave the entire population of Gondor if he won the war – as any other consideration. There is no reason to believe they were politically united at the end of the second millennium.


As for the necessity to intervene, it had to become apparent once the Witch-King became King at Fornost. Gondor could never permit to have such a strong enemy on her northern borders. It would have been suicidal.

Tolkien makes it plain that Eärnil acted in good faith, sending his own warlike son in the van of the expedition. But as far as any reluctant members of the Council are concerned, I agree with you.

I still can’t find my copy of Peoples of Middle-earth, but I think it has more detail on the timing of the war – when Fornost fell, and possibly when Eärnur set sail, as well the time of year when the Witch-king vanished.

-|-

Perhaps it took the Gondorian ships several weeks. Perhaps it took months. It would depend on the trade winds and currents.

I entirely agree. My point was that merely that “the earliest that the force of Gondor could have arrived was probably early spring 1975.”


What kind of sailing technology did the Gondorians have that would have permitted speeds up to 5-8 knots, which is a breath-taking speed for sailing large transport vessels?
I looked up sailing speeds for caravels, carracks, galleons, and Viking-style longships. An old Roman galley might make 2–4 knots under the best conditions (usually far less, even under sail), but they were hardly suitable for open sea like the north Atlantic: I am assuming that the Gondorians and Elves were using something either like longships or caravels or carracks.

The Niña and Pinta were caravels; the Santa Maria was a small carrack. The distance by airplane from Spain to the Bahamas is about 4250 miles or about 6830 km, and Columbus did not seem to be in a tremendous hurry, staying in the Canaries until September 6. If he sailed from there to, say, the Bahamas, that would be over 3600 miles in only 36 days, and I don’t think they sailed hard at night for fear of missing a sighting of land: over 3-1/2 knots consistent sailing day and night; around 5 knots if they sailed about 2/3 of the distance during the day. And of course, those are straight-line distances (Great Circle routes) built from Google maps (http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm) (a useful link): Columbus and his men did not sail in a straight line!

Gondor probably maintained something of the old Númenórean sailing technology, so 5-8 knots during the day seems reasonable to me: after all, the Númenóreans had to sail from Anadûnê to Middle-earth on a regular basis, and the Great Sea is the Atlantic Ocean, more or less.

[Coffeehouse]

the kind of Dark Age or medieval technology that Tolkien describes in his writings.

And, as I pointed out, Gondor had suffered a devastating war only a generation earlier, and the country had sat upon the edge of a knife while they sought for a year to avoid another civil war over the succession.

I looked up sailing speeds for caravels, carracks, galleons, and Viking-style longships. An old Roman galley might make 2–4 knots under the best conditions (usually far less, even under sail), but they were hardly suitable for open sea like the north Atlantic: I am assuming that the Gondorians and Elves were using something either like longships or caravels or carracks.

The Niña and Pinta were caravels; the Santa Maria was a small carrack. The distance by airplane from Spain to the Bahamas is about 4250 miles or about 6830 km, and Columbus did not seem to be in a tremendous hurry, staying in the Canaries until September 6. If he sailed from there to, say, the Bahamas, that would be over 3600 miles in only 36 days, and I don’t think they sailed hard at night for fear of missing a sighting of land: over 3-1/2 knots consistent sailing day and night; around 5 knots if they sailed about 2/3 of the distance during the day. And of course, those are straight-line distances (Great Circle routes) built from Google maps (http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm) (a useful link): Columbus and his men did not sail in a straight line!

Gondor probably maintained something of the old Númenórean sailing technology, so 5-8 knots during the day seems reasonable to me: after all, the Númenóreans had to sail from Anadûnê to Middle-earth on a regular basis, and the Great Sea is the Atlantic Ocean, more or less.

It's perhaps reasonable then to assume, as you point out Alcuin, that the technology Gondor had available was roughly similar to that of Western Europe right up to the Middle Ages. Did they then also have the knowledge and technology for relatively large sailing vessels corresponding to caravels?

In a previous post Alcuin writes:
There is no mention of piracy against Gondor from the southern ports until the sons of Castamir the Usurper and their adherents decamped to Umbar a year after their defeat at the Crossings of Erui in III 1447. It is after this that the Corsairs of Umbar are first mentioned, becoming a more or less permanent threat to Gondor: The strong implication is that there was no great threat to Gondor by sea before their civil war, but there was a considerable threat after the navy of Gondor was split, with the greater part moving to Umbar in defiance of Eldacar and his descendents.

What I'm interested in understanding is whether Gondor had the ability to produce vessels like the caravel and what cost-benefit reality that would pose when the Gondorian fleet set sail for Lindon?
Could the advent of piracy point to the capabilities of Gondor? A few scenarios:

1) Having been severely impaired of their naval capabilities did naval technological innovations become abrupted? Could that have led to a reverse in the know-how and abilities of Gondor to produce newer and better ships? Is it perhaps then likely that Gondor did not set out with caravel-type ships, but less sophisticated and less costly ships like type of longships the Vikings used? These ships could not tack against the wind, but they were well-equipped with oars and could travel at great speeds. So did Gondor send an army that was transported in large ships, or did it transport itself in many fast longship-type vessels?

2) Necessity is the mother of innovation. Perhaps Gondor, being confronted with the threat of piracy, ushered into a productive era of ship-building and technology, enabling them to build caravel-type ships that could travel great distances with enough troops and supplies that they could stay out at sea for weeks and months at the time and arrive in a reasonably good condition in Lindon?

3) Or, as a third scenario, did Gondor receive technology for large-scale ship-building of caravel-type vessels, with the ability to sail in strong headwind and a strong hull for rough seas, from the south of Gondor, perhaps even inspired by the Corsairs. That would harbour some similiarities with how the Portuguese and Spanish received their know-how for making the caravel, leading to Christopher Columbus, Bartholomieu Diaz and Vasco da Gama's long, arduous voyages. The Portuguese pioneered the caraval, but they 'borrowed' the technology from the Italian-city states Venice and Genoa, whom in turn had received such sailing technology from the Middle East by way of trading and warfare.

I'm thinking aloud here. Perhaps it's a mixture of all three. Any views on this? At least it's safe to say that if Gondor sent a fleet with vessels roughly similar to the caravel, they would need a stupendous amount of hardwood. Which would take many months to assemble. Unless a navy did not already stand ready when they decided to embark on the voyage northwards.

It must have been a very tough call. An army being sent north would have to be the real thing, prepared and armed against a formidable enemy. So although smaller, speedier longship-type vessels would be preferable, they would hardly be able to move an entire army? And if Gondor did build a fleet of caravel-type vessels, large and plenty enough to support an army, it must have been a massively costly undertaking.

Christopher Columbus did make the voyage in only 36 days, but he sailed with the trade winds, not against them. Unlike Columbus, Diaz who was the first to sail well past the Cape of Good Hope, spent many months tacking southwards, against strong Atlantic headwinds, to reach the Cape. Later still, Vasco da Gama chose not to stay close to the African shore, but go outwards with the southern Atlantic current, swiping by Brazil's coast, and going far south in a semi-circle, until he sailed eastwards again and touched upon land just north of the Cape.

[Alcuin]

Did [the Dúnedain]then also have the knowledge and technology for relatively large sailing vessels corresponding to caravels?

I’ve no idea. I assume the Númenóreans had large, sea-going vessels from the fact that they regularly crossed Belegaer, the Great Sea, and the only European vessels capable of that venture that Tolkien might copy are caravels and carracks; the earlier cog is a little small for a crossing, but I suppose it could suffice, if all went well: it’s a stretch, I think. Longships and knarrs made Atlantic voyages, too, but for the most part, these apparently stopped at Iceland and Greenland along the way, where they could resupply. For a voyage from Númenor back to Middle-earth, which first took place around II 600, Karen Wynn Fonstad’s maps in Atlas of Middle-earth would suggest the distance is about 1,600-2,000 miles: it’s very difficult to tell. Perhaps a cog or even a well-equipped longship or knarr could make the voyage. The distance due east from Rómenna to Middle-earth would deliver a landing (according to Fonstad’s maps) about as far south of Umbar as Umbar was south of Minas Tirith: it looks as if the crossing there would have been well less than 1,000 miles, which is certainly within reach of a Viking trading vessel even before AD 1000. Trondheim to Reykjavik is 700-800 miles by sea, though I suppose the enterprising Norseman might have stopped halfway in the Hebrides.

Who knows? Some things in Tolkien are very precise: the length of the Númenórean calendar, for instance, is extremely precise. Some things don’t fit with the historical world we live in: “’taters” are New World plants, as are tomatoes, which is what Gandalf originally requested with his cold chicken instead of pickles in later editions of The Hobbit at Bilbo’s “Unexpected Party”. And pipeweed is tobacco, also a New World plant. Tolkien also describes Númenórean flying ships in The Lost Road.

If we’re pinning down dates and chronology in Lord of the Rings, which are generally very precise, we can still run into trouble. Harry Goatleaf, the gatekeeper at Bree, sneaks out of the Prancing Pony after Frodo’s “accident” in my edition, but I understand that this is a leftover from an earlier draft, and that Harry no longer appears in the Inn in the newest editions.

As far as technology goes, however, it strikes me that Middle-earth seems pretty devoid of innovation. The Dwarves are technological in many ways: hidden doors, neat toys, firecrackers, etc. The Second Age Dúnedain are technological; but all through the Third Age, it seems that there are few innovations: the barrow blades eventually used to kill the Witch-king do not seem “technological” so much as “magical”, and the Dúnedain either slowly forget what they know, or else lack the resources to execute using their knowledge. That is often a symptom of a declining society, and it happened in real world the West after the fall of ancient Rome, as well as in ancient Egypt, where the question of how the pyramids were constructed is hotly debated to this day, perhaps 4,560 years later. (For comparison in Tolkien’s world, 4,560 years before the crowing of Aragorn Elessar was the year II 1878, 5 years after the death of Tar-Minastir and 9 years after Tar-Ciryatan took the throne; Tar-Atanamir, then crown prince, would have been 78 years old. And it strikes me that we know these dates from Tolkien with far greater precision that we know real world dates.)

Nothing seems to improve in Middle-earth during the Third Age, with the exception of the flowering of Gondor, which then fades again. I wonder if, in the context of the stories, that is a result of the Rings of Power in operation, slowing the march of Time, so that the presence of the Rings is a detriment to Men.


Christopher Columbus did make the voyage in only 36 days, but he sailed with the trade winds, not against them. Unlike Columbus, Diaz who was the first to sail well past the Cape of Good Hope, spent many months tacking southwards, against strong Atlantic headwinds, to reach the Cape. Later still, Vasco da Gama chose not to stay close to the African shore, but go outwards with the southern Atlantic current, swiping by Brazil's coast, and going far south in a semi-circle, until he sailed eastwards again and touched upon land just north of the Cape.

There is a theory that the Portuguese already knew about the New World, which they had accidentally discovered by sailing further and further west to go around western Africa, and that they were trying to keep their discovery secret. Upon his return from the New World, a storm forced Columbus to seek shelter in Lisbon harbor March 4–15, 1493, and the Portuguese naturally learned of his discovery. The Treaty of Tordesillas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas) in 1494 between Spain and Portugal set the westward limit of the Portuguese sphere of influence. The two countries kept the agreement reasonably well: to this day, the Brazilians speak Portuguese, and everyone else in Latin America speaks Spanish; while the Spanish did not sail east, and all the Iberian colonies and imperial possessions were Portuguese (Angola, Mozambique, Zanzibar, the Malaccas, Goa, Ceylon, and Timor, among many others); the Spanish eventually reached The Philippines by sailing west.

[Coffeehouse]

I’ve no idea. I assume the Númenóreans had large, sea-going vessels from the fact that they regularly crossed Belegaer, the Great Sea, and the only European vessels capable of that venture that Tolkien might copy are caravels and carracks; the earlier cog is a little small for a crossing, but I suppose it could suffice, if all went well: it’s a stretch, I think. Longships and knarrs made Atlantic voyages, too, but for the most part, these apparently stopped at Iceland and Greenland along the way, where they could resupply. For a voyage from Númenor back to Middle-earth, which first took place around II 600, Karen Wynn Fonstad’s maps in Atlas of Middle-earth would suggest the distance is about 1,600-2,000 miles: it’s very difficult to tell. Perhaps a cog or even a well-equipped longship or knarr could make the voyage. The distance due east from Rómenna to Middle-earth would deliver a landing (according to Fonstad’s maps) about as far south of Umbar as Umbar was south of Minas Tirith: it looks as if the crossing there would have been well less than 1,000 miles, which is certainly within reach of a Viking trading vessel even before AD 1000. Trondheim to Reykjavik is 700-800 miles by sea, though I suppose the enterprising Norseman might have stopped halfway in the Hebrides.

Yes, Norwegian longships that left either Stavanger, Bergen or Trondheim always stopped at Iceland on the way before setting out further. In fact the most regular voyages to Greenland and Vinland in modern-day Canada began from Reykjavik. The distance between Trondheim and Reykjavik seems to be a litter over 800 nautical miles, and the longships were especially made for plowing relatively easily through the large, gaping northern Atlantic waves.

I'm less sure though if the Númenóreans used or even knew of longships. Yet if I were to bet on a culture producing these kinds of ships it would be one that was prone to naval warfare and interested in speed and the moment of surprise. The Vikings did as their ventures became more ambitious, their routes longer and their capabilities greater, produce longships that were especially useful in heading in towards shallow waters and bays where larger, wider ships had no possibility of getting in. The hulls would be elongated and narrow in construction, going high in the water, permitting the Vikings to quickly disembark from their vessels in an attack on land. That to me doesn't quite add up to the way the Númenóreans engaged in warfare. If there was a people who would sail ships like these I would bet on Corsairs.


Nothing seems to improve in Middle-earth during the Third Age, with the exception of the flowering of Gondor, which then fades again. I wonder if, in the context of the stories, that is a result of the Rings of Power in operation, slowing the march of Time, so that the presence of the Rings is a detriment to Men.

Yeah, I think that very well could be. Middle-earth does seem to be in some sort of transfixed standstill, with races moving apart from each others, alliances withering, and the art of invention and progress withering away in almost all of the cultures; Gondor, Rohan, the northern Dwarves.


There is a theory that the Portuguese already knew about the New World, which they had accidentally discovered by sailing further and further west to go around western Africa, and that they were trying to keep their discovery secret. Upon his return from the New World, a storm forced Columbus to seek shelter in Lisbon harbor March 4–15, 1493, and the Portuguese naturally learned of his discovery. The Treaty of Tordesillas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas) in 1494 between Spain and Portugal set the westward limit of the Portuguese sphere of influence. The two countries kept the agreement reasonably well: to this day, the Brazilians speak Portuguese, and everyone else in Latin America speaks Spanish; while the Spanish did not sail east, and all the Iberian colonies and imperial possessions were Portuguese (Angola, Mozambique, Zanzibar, the Malaccas, Goa, Ceylon, and Timor, among many others); the Spanish eventually reached The Philippines by sailing west.

Yeah I heard of that theory, and it would make a lot of sense. I think it's far-fetched that none of the Portuguese ships that ventured towards the Cape of Good Hope, and that embarked on the same route as Vasco da Gama (going south-west, south, and then east towards the tip of Africa), did not somehow bump into Brazil's coastline.

As early as 1488 Diaz had already ventured past the Cape of Good Hope, and he took the route southwards, hugging the coastline as he approached the tip. When Vasco da Gama nearly ten years later performed his wide, half-circle I find it hard to believe that he somehow took a chance. How would he know that the southern Atlantic current went south-west, south and then swung in sharply to the east? I think those nearly ten years of 'silence', with no recorded voyages to the tip of Africa, wasn't silent at all.

Vasco da Gama's voyage was planned years ahead, and it was made in the intent of going all the way to India. Any sane naval plan would then be sure that the route he was to embark on actually led him to the right place. The navigator, who has never been recorded as setting out on any long expeditions earlier, probably spent his time practicing on the very voyage he later officially undertook:)

Perhaps then there were several voyages in that silent timespan between 1488 and 1497, where indeed one of the missions might have come off course and gotten carried away by the south-western current, instead of the usual tacking along Africa's west coast. Any ships taking that route, south-west, would be come close to the Brazilian coastline, so I think the answer lies there. An unfortunate voyage or more led to an accidental discovery of Brazil as the Portuguese were making 'practice'-voyages to the tip of Africa and beyond;)

[Valandil]

I think the Numenoreans probably developed square-rigged ships - like those of the Napoleonic era, sans cannons. They had thousands of years, and were very adept at seamanship. Ar-Pharazon's ship he took to Aman as said to be 'many masted'.

I wouldn't say their ships were exactly like those - but I think they may have figured out that technology and incorporated it. I think they had multi-leveled ships, so that people could be inside, and out of a storm.

[Willow Oran]

I think medieval is the wrong period in history to look to for ideas about Numenorean and Gondorian fleets. Given his education and his interest in mythologies, Tolkien was probably thinking of ships more along the lines of what was developed in the Mediterreanean starting in Phonecia near the end of the Aegean Dark age, really taking off at the height of Athenian power and continuing well into the Roman Empire. Such ships would depend more on rowers than sails and in the later periods got to be quite huge.

[Earniel]

Didn't the Númenoreans vessels have some kind of engine? I thought I remembered reading a quote of that nature somewhere. I can't remember where, but I remember thinking for a long time that the Númenoreans had more advanced ships then their descendants.

[Gordis]

We know that the Numenorean ships by the time of Downfall became quite huge - veritable sea-castles.
For with the aid and counsel of Sauron they multiplied then: possessions, and they devised engines, and they built ever greater ships. -Akallabeth
Valandil is right: the great ships must have had several decks and were many masted, so they had to use square rigging. I think they were similar to Spanish galleons, if not more modern Clippers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper)

Yet, unlike the abovementioned ships, the great ships of Ar-Pharazon also had oars:
Thus the fleets of the Númenóreans moved against the menace of the West; and there was little wind, but they had many oars and many strong slaves to row beneath the lash
One needs a lot of oars to row a big ship, and it is a very hard work. I guess normally the Numenorean ships used sails, as the winds were for the most part favorable, by the grace of Uinen. But in the venture against Valinor they had to row all the way.
I don't think in real history there are examples of HUGE many-masted many-decked ships also having oars.

Nothing seems to improve in Middle-earth during the Third Age, with the exception of the flowering of Gondor, which then fades again. I wonder if, in the context of the stories, that is a result of the Rings of Power in operation, slowing the march of Time, so that the presence of the Rings is a detriment to Men. Very good idea.
It is quite possible that the technology of late Numenor had been irretrievably lost over time, and Earnur's ships were more alike to Pinta than the huge sea-castles of Ar-Pharazon. Look also at the numbers of Umbarian ships that Aragorn and the Dead found at Pelargir:
Legolas:There at Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count.
I remember out old discussion with Val when we tried to estimate the number of people the Nine ships of Elendili could save from Numenor. IIRC, we estimated that each could carry a thousand men. Now if we believe that the Umbarian great ships were of same size, then the total estimate for corsairs' numbers would be above 50 000 - that would be far too many.

Edit: Earniel: no no engine, as far as I know. As I have pointed out, they had oars instead.

[Coffeehouse]

Which means Gondor probably had the option of taking a route out to the open seas if the trade winds or currents really do head southwards. (In all probability there does not even exist the kinds of trade winds along the coastline as we have in the Indian Ocean, the monsoon.)

I can't recall there being any great forests of hardwood close by to Gondor though. For such an ambitious ship-building that must have been a problem.

[Coffeehouse]

Valandil is right: the great ships must have had several decks and were many masted, so they had to use square rigging. I think they were similar to Spanish galleons, if not more modern Clippers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper)

It's perhaps a stretch that they had developed the sort of fast-going ocean vessel that the Clipper was. Is there any evidence of that sort of ship? Since there's a quote implying they used oars on their sailing ships I'm thinking that perhaps the sailing technology that Gondor had developed or 'borrowed', since it incorporates oars, would be more similar to the Chinese junk of the 1400s.

I don't think in real history there are examples of HUGE many-masted many-decked ships also having oars.

The Chinese junks of that period were large with multiple compartments, many-masted and fitted with oars, which was greatly assisted by the lack of a keel (in place they added the sternpost-rudder). The sails of the Chinese junk could also be shifted in position and direction, giving the navigators more options out on the seas.

A ship made of wood that could be sea-worthy and carry a thousand men sounds to be impossible. Would it be sea-worthy? Yet if there was a ship that could carry greater loads of cargo and passengers than any other sailing ship it was the Chinese junks with their multi-levelled compartments and carefully placed balast. Those ships were an oasis of stability on the seas, so perhaps the answer lies there.

[Valandil]

:
:
A ship made of wood that could be sea-worthy and carry a thousand men sounds to be impossible. Would it be sea-worthy? Yet if there was a ship that could carry greater loads of cargo and passengers than any other sailing ship it was the Chinese junks with their multi-levelled compartments and carefully placed balast. Those ships were an oasis of stability on the seas, so perhaps the answer lies there.

I believe that the HMS Victory (and other three-decker, 100-110 gun ships of the line from that period) had a CREW of about 1,000 men. I suppose you could cram on a lot more if they were just passengers, or even soldiers who were being carried someplace. Especially if you didn't need room for all those cannons... and gunpowder... and shot.

[Coffeehouse]

Right. The article I came across stated a crew of 820 at the Battle of Trafalgar, while the total tonnage was 3,200-3,500, which is a lot more than I imagined that sort of ship could carry, so it seems possible.

Any views on the Chinese junk theory?

[Gordis]

I am totally unfamiliar with Chinese junks... can't even imagine what they looked like.:o

Anyway - about oars. Oars imply many rowers, most of them (if not all) slaves. ("but they had many oars and many strong slaves to row beneath the lash"-Akallabeth) It may well be that the use of oars was specific for late wicked Numenor, maybe only specific for the latest Ar-Pharazon's ships. At the time the Numenoreans enslaved ME natives, and also had a supply of convicts from jails - likely not all the imprisoned Faithful ended their lives in the Temple, most of them filled the lower decks of the King's navy.

Another thing is that, once Sauron took over Numenor, the winds and the Sea stopped to be friendly. That would necessitate oars, when previously the use of sails was more than sufficient.

Thus I guess normal Numenorean ships had no oars, Elendil's ships had no oars, probably even Ar-Pharazon's fleet that went to ME to fight Sauron had no oars. It was only the Armada preparing to sail into the forbidden West that had a new type of ships developed just for the occasion - huge ones with oars.

I believe in Gondor they didn't have oars either - but in Umbar they might have had them. One needs to be cruel enough and have a vast supply of slaves to use oars on a large scale.

[Coffeehouse]

I am totally unfamiliar with Chinese junks... can't even imagine what they looked like.:o

This is a depiction of an early 1400s Chinese Junk.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk46/Springbok2009/1400sChineseJunk.jpg

As you can see there's a smaller vessel in the bottom-right corner.. that's a European 1400s caravel, as used by Bartholomieu Diaz, Christopher Columbus and Vasco da Gama;) The actual build of the ship isn't all that different from the build of vessels such as the caravel, carrack or later galleons, except the enormous difference in size. This junk, built for Zheng He's legendary naval excursions from China and into the Indian Ocean, all the way to the Middle-East and Africa, was the largest specimen of the junk, and so it's important to underline that the average size of a Chinese junk is not even remotely as large, falling instead in the size-width of a typical carrick or even galleon.


Anyway - about oars. Oars imply many rowers, most of them (if not all) slaves. ("but they had many oars and many strong slaves to row beneath the lash"-Akallabeth) It may well be that the use of oars was specific for late wicked Numenor, maybe only specific for the latest Ar-Pharazon's ships. At the time the Numenoreans enslaved ME natives, and also had a supply of convicts from jails - likely not all the imprisoned Faithful ended their lives in the Temple, most of them filled the lower decks of the King's navy.

Well it's true that the typical imagery of oar-working shipmen are slaves aboard the 17th and 18th century galleys doing their privateering along the Barbary Coast. But that does not mean working the oars implies slavery.
We can only look to the Vikings and their longships and see that on the great voyages they undertook the oar-working shipmen were not slaves, but the crew, the traders, the warriors all-in-one. Likewise, the oar-men aboard the Chinese junks in Admiral Zheng He's fleet were not slaves, but skilled seamen.

So you know it may be premature to conclude that the ships of Gondor did not also use oars in times when the waters of the Sea were at 'peace' from the anger of the Valar.

Perhaps it boils down to, again, whether the ocean currents and possible trade winds made it easier or more difficult, excluding any influence 'from above', to say, travel from Pelagrir or Dol Amroth to Lindon.

We could also think of it this way: with the lack of a stable trading ports out in the Sea, i.e. the sunken Númenór, and a lack of peaceful ports south of Gondor, the level of seamanship in Gondor might have taken a fall, increasing the likelihood of using easier, but more labour-intensive, means of travel such as oars. Now if a fleet sent up north to Lindon was carrying an army it would not lack the manpower to man those oars.

[CAB]

Regarding the use of oars, didn't ancient (before the use of cannons, I suppose) military ships have to possess oars to be able to deal, both offensively and defensively, with other military ships. I would think that, in almost every case, an unoared ship would be at a huge disadvantage when facing an oared opponent.

[Coffeehouse]

Definitely.

If we imagine a scenario where one military vessel, large and well-equipped encounters another similarly-sized vessel. Both ships are in headwind, and the currents are strong, and some miles ahead lies a protuding peninsula with omnious-looking rocks. Now if one of the vessels for one reason or another do not want to engage in close-quarter battle, and make a daring escape ahead, the skill at which they can row away from the other vessel is the difference between life and death.

I think this does not have to stretch back to ancient history even. Until the advent of the truly powerful canon-ships in the mid 16th century, and the galleon, it's not unreasonable to assume that many ships did possess oars.

Admiral Zheng He's fleet would have another reason to employ oars. On their journey from off the Chinese coastline all the way to the waters of current-day Somalia they would encounter shallow waters, days with strong headwinds, unfavourable currents and windstill nights out on the open ocean. In those circumstances the availability of oars would be nothing but crucial.

It's probable that those very same conditions at sea confronted a Númenórean fleet heading to Lindon or elsewhere I'd say.

[Alcuin]

In the tale of “Tal-Elmar” in Peoples of Middle-earth, the Númenórean vessels had black sails on them. I can’t find my text, but I do recall that the implication was that there was more than one sail on at least the principal ship in the story. So the Númenórean vessels in the middle of the Second Age were sailing ships with more than one sail, and probably more than one mast. The Dúnadan captain told Tal-Elmar, who feared the black sails of his ship meant that it was in the service of Sauron, that his black sails represented the night, which the Faithful Dúnedain honored because of the stars.

In Return of the King, the vessels of the Corsairs of Umbar that were seized by Aragorn had both sails and oars. And these also had black sails, only theirs were probably to strike fear into the folk of Gondor. The folk of Umbar were of Númenórean or mixed Númenórean descent, and their sailing technology was probably similar to that of the folk of Gondor and descended from their Dúnedain ancestors, as well as from innovations brought from Gondor by the followers of the sons of Castamir the Usurper after the Kin-strife of Gondor.

Not all oarsmen were slaves. The kidnapped folk of Gondor were enslaved by the Corsairs; after Aragorn and the Grey Company freed them at Pelargir, they rowed as freemen. The Vikings were certainly not slaves: they were freemen. The Greek sailors of the Argonaut and from the journeys of Odysseus were not slaves either. In the great naval battles of Artemisium and Salamis during the Second Persian Invasion of Greece in 480 BC, the Greeks gave part of the credit for their victory to the rowers, who unlike the Persian rowers, were all free men.

The Spanish occasionally rowed the galleons of their treasure fleet in the sixteenth century. If galleons were becalmed, the vessels were equipped with oars so that the crew could row for a while until their ship reached wind again.

The famous Pauline Baynes map of Middle-earth (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/baynes/middle-earth.jpg) that appeared in the 1974 Tolkien Calendar has one, two, and three-masted ships on it. The map was drawn during Tolkien’s lifetime and with his approval. The ships Baynes depicted look like longships, cogs, caravels, or carracks. Baynes prepared maps for both Tolkien and CS Lewis, as well as other artwork for Narnia for Lewis, and for Tolkien, Farmer Giles of Ham, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, Smith of Wootton Major, Tree and Leaf, and Bilbo's Last Song. In Smith of Wootton Major, the elves visiting England who sailed from Tol Eressëa are depicted disembarking from a single-masted ship much akin to a Viking longboat. This picture was also drawn during Tolkien’s lifetime.

[Coffeehouse]

Interesting map!:) I actually haven't seen it before. Did Tolkien really approve of the map?

From the look of it there are ships of a great variety indeed. From what I can spot there are similarities to Phoenican, Venetian, Norse, Portuguese, Spanish vessels and the galleys of the Barbary coast pirates.

None of the ships depicted are especially large ships, though one of them could be a smaller carrack (less than 1000 ton is my guess, though I could be wrong). Yet it does not exclude the likelihood of larger ships. Fleets bred for the purpose of war and the transport of self-supplied armies would be rare (despite piracy raids) and so large ships would be the exception not the rule, with most vessels sailing under the flag of Gondor being the size of carracks, caravels and lesser, for purposes of commerce.

Interesting that the ships of Gondor sailed under black sails. Indeed the colour of the sails on the map are blackish-greenish with an emblem the shape of a star(?)

[Alcuin]

Did Tolkien really approve of the map?My understanding is that, Yes, he did. All of the other pictures in the 1974 Tolkien Calendar were drawn by Tolkien himself. It would be out of character for the family, which oversees the production of the Calendars, to publish something of which they knew their father would disapprove, particularly right after his death in August 1973.

I don’t believe we can pin down exactly what kinds of ships the Dúnedain sailed. We can get a good idea from Tolkien’s own descriptions and from the illustrations he and other people drew, as long as he approved of them. (He worked with Pauline Baynes for nearly 25 years.) I can’t locate my copy of Tolkien Artist and Illustrator either (my office is a real mess), but I do recall that there is a color drawing in it of a longship-type vessel with a large swan-prow (reminiscent of the description of Galadriel’s barge or the ships of the Teleri at Alqualondë), oars, and one mast with a square sail. I think I recall it was an Elven-ship.

[Coffeehouse]

I think that proves, nearly without doubt, that there was an array of different ships that traversed the seas off Middle-Earth. I don't think either that the Tolkien family would publish such a calendar if it weren't in line with what JRRT himself thought.

If we return to one of the earlier questions in the thread, it dealt with the time spent from the message calling for aid arrived in Gondor, until the time the Númenórean fleet landed at Lindon, and at least in the context of it taking weeks or months, the Númenóreans definitely seemed to have the capability of long stays out on the high seas and would seemingly, judging by sails on the drawings on the map, have the ability to tack very close up to a headwind.

The vessel you're describing sounds very familiar, I think I've seen that picture before sometime. Would it happen to be in the Grey Havens by any chance?

[Alcuin]

The vessel you're describing sounds very familiar, I think I've seen that picture before sometime. Would it happen to be in the Grey Havens by any chance?I don't know. I cannot locate my copy.

[CAB]

This may sound a little silly, but I would like to sincerely thank everyone for their comments on this thread, especially Alcuin and Coffeehouse. I learned quite a bit from you two. Thank you. :)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Not silly at all. I think most of us learn something in every thread here (in the top half of the Moot, at least).

[Coffeehouse]

Thrilled to be of some slight enlightenment CAB. The pleasure of reading Alcuin, Attalus, CAB, DPR and Gordis (these past weeks) is mutual I can assure you all:cool:

[Varnafindë]

Interesting map!:) I actually haven't seen it before. Did Tolkien really approve of the map?

Hey, I hadn't seen this thread! I've seen the map, though - a friend of mine has got a copy of it on her wall.

Yes, Tolkien approved of it. Brian Sibley tells in his blogspot obituary of Pauline Baynes in August last year that she told him of taking her artwork for the Middle-earth map to show Tolkien, and that Tolkien was pleased with the map, apart from one mis-spelled name that had to be corrected.

Brian Sibley's blogspot obituary of Pauline Baynes (http://briansibleysblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/pauline-baynes-queen-of-narnia-middle.html)

My Norwegian translation, posted with Sibley's permission (http://eq5.net/baynes/sibley-baynes-n.html)

[Earniel]

I don't think I had seen that map before. Man, she was an awesome artist.