Wraiths Before the Ring

[FirstClassRanger]

Alright, I know this is like... an age old topic, I'm sure, but I want to get as close to a solid answer as I can get with this thing. This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??

Here's what I've got. Please contribute, either for or against whatever I might suggest. I know all Nine will never be named in terms of canon-iness, but I'm making an attempt to fill a void here. This is what I got (keep in mind that I'm not a Tolkien-atic Know-it-all :( ...I'm just a fan who wants to know more).

Here it goes!!

The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion.
Khamul is Khamul, this we know.
Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths.
Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night. :o

I appreciate it, and again... keep in mind that I don't know a whole lot.

[Gordis]

This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??
There are many here who share your interest in nazgul.;) Welcome to the Moot, Ranger!

The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion.
:eek::confused: That would be the first time I hear this idea. But it could only be wrong. That's why:
IX. Tar-Súrion. He was the third child of Tar-Anárion; his sisters refused the sceptre. 7 He was born in the year 1174, and ruled for 162 years; he surrendered the sceptre in 1556, and died in 1574.- Unfinished Tales, Line of ElrosYou see Tar-Surion, the IX King of Numenor, died in Second Age 1575. Sauron made the Ruling Ring in SA 1600, then attacked Eregion and acquired the Nine Rings in SA 1697. No way could he give one of the Nine to Tar-Surion, long-dead and gone beyond the Circles of the World.

The future nazgul had to be alive and active sometime after SA 1697, but likely before SA 2251 (The nazgul first appear - App B, LOTR) - that is the requirement imposed by Tolkien's dating of various events.

Now to the known hypotheses about the WK's possible identity an the list of "suspicious persons".

Kings of Numenor:
Tar-Minastir
Tar Ciryatan
Tar-Atanamir

For the first one the dates of the life fit, but little else. For Ciryatan and Atanamir there is a nice theory by Olmer that you can read here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230 Pay attention to Olmer's posts on page 2.

Princes of Numenor:

Isilmo, father of Tar-Minastir, a very suspicious person. He should have been King, but somehow was circumvented - his sister ruled and then his son. That is all we know about the guy:
X. Tar-Telperien. She was the second Ruling Queen of Númenor. She was long-lived (for the women of the Númenóreans had the longer life, or laid down their lives less easily), and she would wed with no man. Therefore after her day the sceptre passed to Minastir; he was the son of Isilmo, the second child of Tar-Súrion. (8) Tar-Telperien was born in the year 1320; she ruled for 175 years, until 1731, and died in that same year.
Note 8:It is curious that the sceptre passed to Tar-Telperien when Tar-Súrion had a son, Isilmo. It may well be that the succession here depends on the formulation of the new law given in The Lord of the Rings, i.e. simple primogeniture irrespective of sex (see p. 218), rather than inheritance by a daughter only if the Ruler had no son.
The theory about Isilmo as the Witch-King can be read here: Isilmo (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/915fa646781c3399/a1b2c299d319cb89?q=isilmo&rnum=2&hl=en#a1b2c299d319cb89)

Unnamed prince, either brother or uncle of Tar-Ciryatan. Please read this excellent article by Alcuin:http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm

There is also Numruzir's Tal-Elmar theory, but I can't find the link anymore :(.

Khamul is Khamul, this we know.
Not much is known about him. He was an Easterling and was known as Khamul, the Shadow of the East, while he was Lieutenant of Dol Guldur in the Third Age. I believe Khamul is not his original name, but an epesse acquired after he became a wraith.

Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths.
You may be right, he was likely to be the third nazgul. Gothmog is obviously another epesse, given by Sauron. He may have been of any people: Southron, Easterling or Numenorean.

Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night. :o

There are lists of names given to the nazgul in various non-Tolkien sources: MERP modules, cards collections, diverse fanfics etc. The MERP list even had a woman - Adunaphel. :eek: But these names have nothing to do with the Professor.
So, if you want to sleep well, compile your own list.:D

[barrelrider110]

In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession. Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?

[FirstClassRanger]

And that is what I came here for! Thanks, Gordis. I figured I was wrong about Tar-Surion because I had limited knowledge on the subject... but from the information I did have, I made what I judged to be the best possible guess. Had I read all the books I own, I would've known I was wrong from the start. However, I'm more interested in acquiring knowledge through discussion, debate and trial-and-error over time... as opposed to reading. :D

It's more fun to theorize and take an uneducated stab in the dark and have a high risk of being told I'm wrong... 'cause in the case that I was right I'd be a genius for it. :p

You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered.

[Gordis]

In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession.
Well clearly there couldn't have been three Numenorean Kings among the nazgul :D. One maybe, though even that is hotly contested by some Tolkien scholars.
Yet, "great lords" seems to imply at least persons of the Line of Elros, if not specifically princes of the Royal family.
Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them? You mean what appeal could a Ring have for a King of Numenor? There were at least two possible reasons:
1. Eternal life. Ar-Pharazon let all his kingdom and all his army be destroyed for this very snare. Immortality was most appealing to any man, even a King.
2. Sorcery. If a King was interested in supernatural (and every King had some hobby, as we learn from UT), then one of the Nine rings that provided an access into the Spirit World would open new horizons in sorcery.

You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered.
Gothmog was called after the famous First Age lord of balrogs, head of Morgoth's Army. Do you see a human couple giving their baby-boy such a name?:eek: :D
On the contrary, I totally see a name like that granted by Sauron to one of his top servants in recompense for faithful service.

"Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black tongue. If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery:
"nazgûl"= "ringwraith"
"nazg"="ring"
"ûl"="wraith"
My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".
And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth.

The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".

[FirstClassRanger]

I thought '-gul' meant magic (or sorcery)... :confused:

[Alcuin]

“-gul� as in “Morgul� means “sorcery� in Sindarin. “-ûl� as in “Nazgûl� means “wraith� in Black Speech, a language invented by Sauron and used mostly by him and his chief servants. That he borrowed from or used (or abused) Sindarin or to make it would not be surprising; and we know he used an Elvish script to inscribe his spell on the One Ring.

Tolkien says that the Kings of Númenor were embalmed in a manner similar to that of Egyptian pharaohs, and that they were all interred in valley called Noirinan at the south slope of Meneltarma, a forerunner of Rath DÃ*nen, the “Silent Streetâ€� in Minas Tirith where the kings and stewards of Gondor were buried beneath mount Mindolluin.

Khamûl is the only Nazgûl definitely named. I think Gordis is right on target with the meaning of his name: I had not considered it before. (Nazgûl are Gordis’ especial interest.) RotK Gothmog was the Lieutenant of (Minas) Morgul and took command of the army attacking Minas Tirith after the demise of the Witch-king, so lots of folks believe he might also be a Nazgûl.

Iron Crown Enterprises developed a popular game called Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP), similar to D&D or Traveller (if anyone remembers that oldie), in which they assigned names to the other eight Nazgûl. (ICE went bankrupt in 2000 and lost its license; MERP survives on the web. ICE also developed some really neat, highly-detailed maps of Middle-earth that are also non-canonical: in other words, you can’t use them to prove a point in a Tolkien-related forum – though sometimes folks try!) Here are ICE’s names for the Nazgûl, courtesy of Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/nazgul.html) (a great resource):

Er-Murazor (the Witch-king, almost certainly a Númenórean)
Khamûl (the only canonical name: Tolkien gave it to him)
Dwar of Waw
Ji Indur Dawndeath
Akhorahil (another Númenórean)
Hoarmurath of Dir
Adûnaphel the Quiet (Númenórean woman)
Ren the Unclean
Uva the Horseman


If it is of any interest, I have recently read (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?p=492979) that

'Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Numenor.' JRRT, from notes in [Parma Eldalamberon] 17, base SAWA- 'disgusting, foul, vile'

I cannot independently verify the information, but I trust the source.

[Coffeehouse]

Er-Murazor (the Witch-king, almost certainly a Númenórean)
Khamûl (the only canonical name: Tolkien gave it to him)
Dwar of Waw
Ji Indur Dawndeath
Akhorahil (another Númenórean)
Hoarmurath of Dir
Adûnaphel the Quiet (Númenórean woman)
Ren the Unclean
Uva the Horseman


You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you? Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

[Alcuin]

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you?Profit, I presume.
Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?If by “factual basis�, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.)

[Coffeehouse]

Profit, I presume.
If by “factual basis”, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.)

You're right.. probably profit. But what I meant is, do you know if they gave any reasons for why they chose the names they do. Are they taken out of thin air or do they mean anything.

I'm asking because some of them look amateurish and not Tolkienesque at all:cool:

[Alcuin]

Oh, if you want to speculate on the source of the names, I should say published Tolkien material at the time, D&D, and such late-night imbibings and libations as were common in the early- to middle-1980s.

“Er-Murazor” and “Adûnaphel” sound as if they might be faux-Adûnaic; “Adûnaphel” has –adun, Adûnaic for “west” in it. “Akhorahil” sounds as if it might be an attempt to get at a Sindarin-sounding name. (Akhorahil seems to have been called “the Blind Sorcerer” or “Akhorahil the Blind”.) “Er-Murazor”, “Akhorahil”, and “Adûnaphel” might all be worked out from what was known about Adûnaic and Sindarin at the time: you might start with the appendix to Silmarillion and see what was borrowed from the glossary; and there were other books published on Tolkien’s languages in the early 1980s, too. (I have one of them around here someplace…)

“Ji Indur Dawndeath” sounds like a character in Star Wars; it strikes me that it could be some corruption of the English “engender dawn death”, as in, “kill them at dawn”. “Ren the Unclean” kind of rhymes, and “Dwar of Waw” sort of alliterates. “Hoarmurath of Dir” reminds me of “hoar [old] muriatic acid”, leading to “hold the muriatic acid, dear.” “Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be.

As I write, these names come back to me from decades ago, standing in the bookstore looking through the game books and wondering how these guys got the license after the first Lord of the Rings movies meshed with the D&D craze, and what they paid for it.

This is pure speculation and impression on my part. It all sounds silly, but I was a DM at the same time the guys at ICE were devising Nazgûl names. Coming up with names is a difficult business, especially when you have a deadline and lots of them to invent.

Anybody else who has a good idea should post it. Anyone who has any real knowledge – an old ICE or MERP employee or developer, perhaps – would be most welcome!

[Gordis]

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you?
Profit, yes, and then they wanted to provide an interesting setting for the people to play in. That's why there is a woman among the Nine, although Tolkien almost certainly didn't intend this. It just makes a better story: the all-boys team is a bit dull. We have had the same problem in our two nazgul RPGs here on the Moot. We had even three nazgirls - and it was a lot of fun.:D

Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?
No it does not. ""Murazor" is Adunaic, or seems to be Adunaic - but at the time Princes of the Royal family always used Quenia names, even if the name had a popular Adunaic translation.

What does "Er-" mean, I am not sure. If "Ernil"=Prince than it would be Sindarin, crazy to use it with Adunaic name. And I never saw "Ernil" form a prefix "Er-" like "Tar-" or "Ar-"


And take Adunaphel the ICE-MERP nazgulette. Want a laugh?

I think I have found out where the MERP guys took the idea. (For they are serious guys, some of their info has at least a slight basis in the canon. Hmm... very slight. :D)

Look here at this quote from the beginning of "A Knife in the Dark"

There was a faint stir in the leaves, and a cock crowed far away. The cold hour before dawn was passing. The figure by the door moved. In the dark without moon or stars a drawn blade gleamed, as if a chill light had been unsheathed. There was a blow, soft but heavy, and the door shuddered.
'Open, in the name of Mordor!' said a voice thin and menacing.

A THIN voice! So - here we have a woman! :cool: And if you reread Adunaphel's MERP story attentively, you will find out that it WAS Adunaphel who knocked on the door at Crickhollow!". No matter that later she broke the said door with two "soft but heavy" blows. Isn't she an awesome girl? :D

According to MERP she was the one who lived with Khamul in Dol Guldur away from the seven in Minas Morgul. I wonder if it was supposed to be a romance. :rolleyes:

[Gordis]

“Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be.


BTW, Alcuin, MERP had "Uvatha", not "Uva" for the ninth.

And here is the MERP story of Adunaphel:
7. Adunaphel, The Quiet Adunaphel / the Quiet / the Avenger
Rank: 7th in ranking of the Nazguls
Story: Adunaphel, a fair Numenorean princess from Forostar was the only female to become a Nazgul. Dissapointed that her younger brother should become heir to the throne, she left in anger and was grasped by hatred. Exact time and place for her meeting with the Dark Lord is unknown, but she was decieved by Sauron himself, not by an underling. Many signs point to the Second Age, around 2150. After the great plague ravaged Eriador in the mid Third-age, Gondor's watch on Mordor became less vigilant and Sauron sent Adunaphel to the black land to prepare for his eventual return. Adunaphel dwelt secretly in Nurn until the arrival of the Witch-king; whose coming heralded the Nazguls' assault on the tower of Minas Ithil. Its fall signified the end of Gondor's hold on the dark land. After Sauron's return to Barad-dur, Adunaphel was commanded to make fast the ancient stronghold of Dol guldur on the elves of Mirkwood, and later after the outbreak of the War of the Ring was involved with the other Nazgul in attempting to recapture the One Ring. She was unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom by Frodo Baggins and/or Gollum.

[Alcuin]

Any of the eight remaining Nazgûl “unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom� would surely “with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, … shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and [gone] out.� (RotK, “Mount Doom�) Unless, of course, Sauron decided to hold one or two in reserve - which does not seem to be the case, since the expedition Aragorn led from Minas Tirith “saw all the Nazgûl gathered together, hovering ... like vultures� (RotK, “The Black Gate Opens�), and presumably Sauron held nothing in reserve when he tried to retrieve his Ring from Frodo in Sammath Naur and prevent its destruction.

Though I suppose that, if for argument’s sake, any Nazgûl had survived (and to be clear, I think they were all destroyed), they would have been awfully, awfully old without their Rings.

[Gordis]

Any of the eight remaining Nazgûl “unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom” would surely “with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, … shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and [gone] out.” (RotK, “Mount Doom”) Unless, of course, Sauron decided to hold one or two in reserve - which does not seem to be the case, since the expedition Aragorn led from Minas Tirith “saw all the Nazgûl gathered together, hovering ... like vultures” (RotK, “The Black Gate Opens”), and presumably Sauron held nothing in reserve when he tried to retrieve his Ring from Frodo in Sammath Naur and prevent its destruction.
I didn't think that MERP implied the survival of any of the nazgul. "Unbound" might mean that their souls were finally free to leave the Circles, nothing more.

Though I suppose that, if for argument’s sake, any Nazgûl had survived (and to be clear, I think they were all destroyed), they would have been awfully, awfully old without their Rings.
I remember discussing it a few years ago: Tolkien had all the nazgul perish in the explosion, but what if (for argument's sake) a couple of them were sitting in Dol Guldur or in Minas-Morgul or on a hill in Rohan playing cards? Would they die on the spot or not?

Here is Udukhaturz's (Angmar's) post

Life After Rings

Killing Nazgûl is not easy. If they are stabbed with a blade of Westernsee, their impotent spirits retreat back to Sauron. ("The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence." - Letter #246, Tolkien Letters, p. 331) In fact, they appear to be still living AFTER THE RING IS DESTROYED, a thing that is overlooked often times. For those of you who watched the film, you might have wondered why the Eight Nazgûl are still flying about after the Ring is destroyed, and only perished in the flames.

In this selection of text taken from Return of the King, Gollum has just gone over the brink with the One Ring, and Barad-dûr is falling. It appears that the Nazgûl still live, bodies and all, even though the Ring has been destroyed. They only perish in the fires of Mount Doom as they fly towards it. I can get no other interpretation of it, and this conclusion is supported by Tolkien's earlier outlines.

"And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, [Gollum] stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

"There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof. The throbbing grew to a great tumult, and the Mountain shook. Sam ran to Frodo and picked him up and carried him out to the door. And there upon the dark threshold of the Sammath Naur, high above the plains of Mordor, such wonder and terror came on him that he stood still forgetting all else, and gazed as one turned to stone.

"A brief vision he had of a swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, and the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out."

- Mount Doom, Return of the King, p. 224

Here are excerpts from some of Tolkien's earlier outlines that seems to verify this "life after the Ring" premise. This is Version I, written sometime around 1939-1941.

Perhaps better would be to make Gollum repent in a way. He is utterly wretched, and commits suicide. Gollum has it, he cried. No one else shall have it. I will destroy you all. He leaps into crack. Fire goes mad. Frodo is like to be destroyed.

Nazgûl shape at the door. Frodo is caught in the fire-chamber and cannot get out!

Here we all end together, said the Ring Wraith.

Frodo is too weary and lifeless to say nay.

You first, said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind.

Frodo and Sam escape and flee down mountain-side. But they could not escape the running molten lava. They see Eagles driving the Nazgûl. Eagles rescue them.

- The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version I, Sauron Defeated, p. 5

Here is Version II, which is more complicated than Version I, but shows the Witch-king as still around after the Ring goes into the fire.

"Frodo puts on Ring! A great cry rings out. A great shadow swoops down from Baraddur, like a bird. The Wizard King is coming. Frodo feels him - the one who stabbed him under Weathertop. He is wearing Ring and has been seen. He struggles to take Ring off and cannot. The Nazgûl draws near as swift as storm. Frodo's one idea is to escape it, and without thinking of his errand he now flies into the Chamber of Fire. A great fissure goes across it from left to right. Fire boils in it. All goes dark to Frodo and he falls on his knees. At that moment Gollum arrives panting and grabs at the Ring. That rouses Frodo, and they fight on the brink of the chasm. Gollum breaks Frodo's finger and gets Ring. Frodo falls in swoon. But Sam who has now arrived rushes in suddenly and pushes Gollum over the brink. Gollum and Ring go into the Fire together. The Mountain boils and erupts. Barad-dur falls. A great dust and a dark shadow floats away on NE from the rising SW wind. Frodo suddenly thinks he can hear and smell Sea. A dreadful shuddering cry is borne away and until it dies far off all men and things stand still.

"Frodo turns and sees door blocked by Wizard King. The mountain begins to erupt and crumble. Here we will perish together, said the Wizard King. But Frodo draws Sting. He no longer has any fear whatsoever. He is master of the Black Riders. He commands the Black Rider to follow the Ring his master and drives it into the fire."

-The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version II, Sauron Defeated, p. 6-7

At least the movie got some things right. This quote, taken from a movie companion book which is strictly based upon the films, explains "life after the Ring" perhaps better than I can.

"When Aragorn led his army to the Black Gate the Nazgûl were part of the host that attacked them there, but they were commanded by Sauron to fly to Mount Doom when he perceived what was about to happen. Yet despite their great speed they were too late, and perished in the inferno caused by their master's destruction."

- The Lord of the Rings Weapons and Warfare by Chris Smith, p. 167


and my reply:

Life After Rings - Not for Long!

I agree that the Nazgûl were NOT destroyed in the same instant that the One Ring melted. The quotes Angmar gave are quite convincing.

But why?

I think that this was because the Nine Nazgûl were NOT DIRECTLY DEPENDENT on the One. Sauron was. He made his shape again, wielding the One, after his body perished in the fall of Númenor. It took about 100 years. He had great difficulties reshaping himself in the Third Age because he could not WIELD the One. He was able to re-flesh himself in about 1500-2000 years, because the One still existed somewhere. I think he used the remaining Dwarven rings for that, which he gradually collected while he sat in Dol Guldur.

Now the Nazgûl were dependent on the NINE rings (not the One) in much the same way. I think, IF Sauron would just go to Orodruin and throw one of the Nine Rings into the Fire, the corresponding Nazgûl would be killed on the spot, his body falling to nothing, his clothes left behind, and his spirit going to Mandos.

I think the Nazgûl existed as long as their NAZGÛL RINGS existed and HAD POWER. The last part is very important. The Nine, the Seven and the Three all depended on the One. When the One was destroyed, what happened to the other Rings? Sauron had the remaining Seven and all the Nine in his physical possession at the moment of the Fall of Barad Dûr. The One was melted, but the Seven and Nine were not! Most likely they were simply BURIED under the ruins of Barad-Dûr.

We know what happened with the Three. They lost their power GRADUALLY after the destruction of the One. Lórien, made with the power of Nenya, had not disappeared in a blast; the same is also true with Rivendell. Both gradually WANED. Bilbo, though he was now very old for a hobbit, didn't die immediately, but started to show his age considerably, and was waning fast.

So if we consider that, with the destruction of the Ruling Ring, the power of the Nine gradually waned, then the Nazgûl were doomed all the same. Sooner or later, the Nine Rings would loose their power and that's when the Nazgûl would end.

That's why, perhaps, the Witch-King sounded so suicidal: "Here we will perish together," instead of just throwing the little hobbit into the chasm and saving his own "eternal" life.

[Alcuin]

Just a thought: we might need another thread for this…

Gandalf’s opinion seems to have been that Bilbo resumed his life as it was before the Ring once he gave it up. His explanation to Frodo in FotR, “Shadow of the Past�:

[Bilbo] felt better at once [after giving up the Ring]... Of course, he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a long while for the influence to wear off – before it was safe for him to see it again, for instance. Otherwise, he might live on for years, quite happily: just stop as he was when he parted with it.


Gollum aged 78 years after Bilbo found the Ring in the orc-tunnels of the Misty Mountains. The Ring had a more pronounced effect on him: he might have aged more slowly during those 78 years for instance, because he was more nearly under control of “the Precious�. Appendix B says that Déagol found the Ring about III 2463, and Sméagol murdered him immediately. They were fairly young hobbits from the description Tolkien gave: perhaps in their 20s. That would make Gollum chronologically over 570 years old, but practically about 100: in human terms, quite old, even if still strong, spry, and wiry. That is how Tolkien describes him. When the effects of the Ring were at their very nadir, when Sméagol nearly repents before sending Frodo into Shelob’s lair, Tolkien writes in TT, “Stairs of Cirith Ungol�:

Gollum looked at [Frodo and Sam]. … The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. … For a fleeting moment, … they would have … beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.


Personally, I think that Gollum “aged� less than 78 years: the power of the One Ring over him was very great; but in any case, he was old, physically and mentally. I think the Nazgûl would have been much the same: they ceased to age normally once they received their Rings.

Tolkien describes the other hobbits’ perception of Bilbo at the beginning of FotR in “A Long-expected Party�:

Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth.


Bilbo’s description to Gandalf of his perception of the effects of the Ring in the same chapter was,

Well-preserved indeed! … I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.


When Frodo put on the Ring at Weathertop, the five Nazgûl appear to him with “grey hairs� and “haggard hands� – signs of age. Aging for them might not have stopped altogether (another deceit of necromancy: perhaps the lives of these Men were not extended indefinitely: a devil is apt to forget his bargains and cheat his partners), and they continued to get older, but at a much decelerated pace. I think the Witch-king was about 4,850 years old when Éowyn beheaded him (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm#_edn37), and if as I suspect he was the last of the Ringwraiths to be ensnared, the others were older, perhaps by a centuries.

Still, if the power of the One Ring was ended, and they were left, I imagine that the Nazgûl would have been old, but hale and not dead yet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs).

[Gordis]

Alcuin, I agree with what you said about Bilbo and Gollum, but not about the nazgul.
Actually, Bilbo didn't age dramatically between the time he left the Ring to Frodo (TA 3001) and the War of the Ring (3018). It was only after the Ring was destroyed that he has aged very fast:
Arwen: "For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he will not again make any long journey save one."-LOTR, Many partings.
I think it was like that. Bilbo was 50 when he got the Ring. He remained the same age (physically) until 3001, then started to age again. So by 3018 he was 50+17=67 years old physically. With the Ring destroyed, he became 111+17=128 years old all of a sudden, which is very old for a hobbit.

As for Gollum, let us say he was 17 in TA 2463, when he got the Ring. He was physically still 17 when he lost it in 2941. He started to age almost normally, so by 3018 he was 17+77= 94 - old, but still fit and quite well adapted to the life in the wilderness. However he knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.)

And in addition there likely have been some lingering effects of the ring, making those who had it once age at a slower rate afterwards.

But all this IMO, applies to LIVING humans, not wraiths. Once you become a wraith, there are other - "unnatural" - rules for you. Your body is functioning unnaturally, it is cold, invisible, your vision is different, you use "other senses", you don't need to sleep, to breathe or to eat. And finally, if you are killed, you just disappear completely, leaving no invisible corpse behind.

I don't think the wraiths aged at all- in TA 3018 they must have looked exactly like at the time when they had turned into wraiths back in mid-SA.

But it is NOT the same as they looked when they got the Rings, though they remained the same age. I will explain why.


When Frodo put on the Ring at Weathertop, the five Nazgûl appear to him with “grey hairs� and “haggard hands� – signs of age.
Yet, Frodo doesn't call the WK "old king" or "ancient king", but "pale king" and "haggard king". One can get grey hairs and haggard hands not because of age strictly speaking, not because one lived many years and it showed, but also from hardship and suffering. Think Gwindor the Elf when he returned from Angband. A few years had passed, but he had become a wreck.

The last years of the nazgul's unnaturally stretched lives must have been a living hell: both mental and physical. Bilbo at 111 was only starting to feel uncomfortable: "stretched" and restless (by the way, note that despite the plentiful life in Bag End his old clothes seemed to become too big for him -so he lost weight without any apparent reason). The nazgul had traveled this road to the very end, when "every moment was a weariness". If, when they got the Rings, they were looking young, rosy-cheeked and healthy, they could look so no more at the end. The suffering made them haggard, pale and grey. And the more they resisted the Rings, the more they suffered.

The rings, after all, only prevent ageing per se, not changing. Gollum had become unrecognizable even as a hobbit after living in this cave for 500 years. The nazgul only became haggard.

the Witch-king was about 4,850 years old when Éowyn beheaded him, and if as I suspect he was the last of the Ringwraiths to be ensnared, the others were older, perhaps by a century or two.
I think Sauron distributed the Nine Rings at about the same time, to men of the same generation, but the WK would normally have 400 years to live, so he must have become a wraith the last.

[Alcuin]

Gordis. I think I’m compelled to agree. A few follow-on questions and so forth...
With the Ring destroyed, [Bilbo] became 111+17=128 years old all of a sudden, which is very old for a hobbit.

As for Gollum, ... knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.)How did Gollum know? From the Ring? Intuitively? The draft versions you cited before show that Tolkien thought the Witch-king would still be alive and quite potent after the One Ring was destroyed.

Once you become a wraith, there are other - "unnatural" - rules for you. Your body is functioning unnaturally, it is cold, invisible, your vision is different, you use "other senses", you don't need to sleep, to breathe or to eat. And finally, if you are killed, you just disappear completely, leaving no invisible corpse behind.I’ve never queried a wraith about his dining habits or preferences. Aragorn said they could smell and desired the blood of living creatures, but whether that was knowledge or folklore I cannot say. I’m certain the Dúnedain of the North – and the Elves around old Arnor – had a store of real knowledge and erroneous information concerning wraiths, though they were knowledgeable enough to make the barrow-blades, which proved extremely effective against wraiths.

As for the bodies of wraiths, I agree, too, but for a slightly different reason, I think: I believe the bodies of the wraiths faded just as Elves faded in Middle-earth, only much faster: that’s why they became invisible when they put on their Rings, and that’s why the Eldar could see them. The wraith-world, the “other side” that Shagrat and Gorbag discussed, and the realm of the faded Elves were all one and the same: the spirit realm. Elves continued to exist in the normal, physical world even after fading: they could see it normally and interact with it normally if they so chose, even faded, or so I read the material in Morgoth’s Ring. Men did not get there naturally: their connection to the everyday world was disrupted by the necromantic power of the Rings, and they could no longer perceive it as before.

Such an outcome would make a person like Glorfindel a real threat to the Witch-king, for instance. I suspect the Witch-king, being a sorcerer, had better perception of his surroundings that the rest of the Nazgûl; but by himself, as he was after the last Battle of Fornost, Glorfindel had far better perception and tremendous combat advantage over him. It might well have taken several Ringwraiths to deal with him, as Gandalf explained to Frodo in Rivendell: on foot, not even Glorfindel and Aragorn together were a match for the mounted Ringwraiths all together.

...note that despite the plentiful life in Bag End [Bilbo’s] old clothes seemed to become too big for him -so he lost weight without any apparent reasonI didn’t remember this point. I don’t want to seem churlish, but do you remember whether that was in the published LotR or the draft versions?


The nazgul had traveled this road to the very end, when "every moment was a weariness". If, when they got the Rings, they were looking young, rosy-cheeked and healthy, they could look so no more at the end. The suffering made them haggard, pale and grey. And the more they resisted the Rings, the more they suffered.

The rings, after all, only prevent ageing per se, not changing. Gollum had become unrecognizable even as a hobbit after living in this cave for 500 years. The nazgul only became haggard.This is an outstanding notion! I cannot say what Tolkien intended, but I think that is one of the best insights about Nazgûl appearance and existence I’ve ever read. These creatures were miserable.

I think Sauron distributed the Nine Rings at about the same time, to men of the same generation, but the WK would normally have 400 years to live, so he must have become a wraith the last.I think Sauron chose each of his victims very carefully and with considerable thought and fiendish foresight and insight into the character and abilities of the individuals. I believe he recruited each personally, which would necessarily imply that he entrapped them sequentially. (It does not rule out working several potential Ringwraiths at once, though.) I think the Witch-king was logically the last one, but only because it makes the most sense in terms of literature, in story structure; he could have been anywhere along the route.

[Gordis]

How did Gollum know? From the Ring? Intuitively?
The draft versions you cited before show that Tolkien thought the Witch-king would still be alive and quite potent after the One Ring was destroyed.
Yes, maybe the Ring "told" him, maybe he just knew it intuitively. Maybe either Sauron or Gandalf said something that would lead him to this conclusion, but I think intuition is a more reasonable hypothesis than logic with a half-mad creature like Gollum.

As for the WK being yet alive and Gollum turning to dust at the destruction of the One, I think it reflects the slower waning of the power of the Nine, the Seven and the Three as compared to abrupt disappearance of the power of the One. Barad Dur fell at once, but Lorien faded in a few years: it is not like all the mallorns disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke. I think the nazgul had very little time left to live anyway (a few hours maybe or a few days), as the Nine rings were weaker than the Three and more connected to the One. I don't know for sure.

I’ve never queried a wraith about his dining habits or preferences. Aragorn said they could smell and desired the blood of living creatures, but whether that was knowledge or folklore I cannot say. The nazgul "smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it" They do sound like vampires, don't they?:eek: The only real piece of knowldge we possess about the nazgul diet is this:
[The WK] rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed.-"Hunt for the Ring" RC p. 262
The nazgul didn't need to eat, but that doesn't mean, IMO, that they couldn't and didn't eat.
They didn't need to breathe (otherwise Gandalf wouldn't be so sure that not a single one had drowned in Bruinen), but we know they did breathe - hobbits heard the sound of their breathing.

As for the bodies of wraiths, I agree, too, but for a slightly different reason, I think: I believe the bodies of the wraiths faded just as Elves faded in Middle-earth, only much faster: that’s why they became invisible when they put on their Rings, and that’s why the Eldar could see them. The wraith-world, the “other side” that Shagrat and Gorbag discussed, and the realm of the faded Elves were all one and the same: the spirit realm. Elves continued to exist in the normal, physical world even after fading: they could see it normally and interact with it normally if they so chose, even faded, or so I read the material in Morgoth’s Ring. Men did not get there naturally: their connection to the everyday world was disrupted by the necromantic power of the Rings, and they could no longer perceive it as before. I personally don't think there would be much difference between nazgul and faded Elves's perception of the physical world ...As the nazgul, the Lingerers have become creatures of the Spirit World almost entirely. Another matter are the Calaquendi who live in both words. Also I think that Elven fading involved as much suffering as human fading - that's why most Elves hurried to Valinor in fear.

And, thinking of that, maybe the Numenoreans among the future nazgul considered using the same escape - maybe that's why during the times of Cityatan and Atanamir the Numenoreans started openly speaking against the Ban? If they could settle in Valinor, their fading would stop...

Such an outcome would make a person like Glorfindel a real threat to the Witch-king, for instance. I suspect the Witch-king, being a sorcerer, had better perception of his surroundings that the rest of the Nazgûl; but by himself, as he was after the last Battle of Fornost, Glorfindel had far better perception and tremendous combat advantage over him. It might well have taken several Ringwraiths to deal with him, as Gandalf explained to Frodo in Rivendell: on foot, not even Glorfindel and Aragorn together were a match for the mounted Ringwraiths all together.
I think you are right in that. + I believe Glorfindel had more power in the World of Shadow, where he was "by right" and not "unlawfully" like the nazgul.

I didn’t remember this point. I don’t want to seem churlish, but do you remember whether that was in the published LotR or the draft versions? It is in LOTR main text, when Bilbo packs before leaving Bag End.
From a locked drawer, smelling of moth-balls, [Bilbo] took out an old cloak and hood. They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could hardly be guessed: it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him. -A Long-expected Party

This is an outstanding notion! I cannot say what Tolkien intended, but I think that is one of the best insights about Nazgûl appearance and existence I’ve ever read. These creatures were miserable.Thank you, Alcuin!:).
I don't think they continued to feel as miserable after becoming wraiths, but they surely had first-hand knowledge of misery, despair and suffering. That's why they could cause these feelings in others just by shrieking.

I think Sauron chose each of his victims very carefully and with considerable thought and fiendish foresight and insight into the character and abilities of the individuals. I believe he recruited each personally, which would necessarily imply that he entrapped them sequentially. (It does not rule out working several potential Ringwraiths at once, though.) I think the Witch-king was logically the last one, but only because it makes the most sense in terms of literature, in story structure; he could have been anywhere along the route.
Right. But it certainly took more time for the WK to fade than for the others.

[Alcuin]

As for the WK being yet alive and Gollum turning to dust at the destruction of the One, I think it reflects the slower waning of the power of the Nine, the Seven and the Three as compared to abrupt disappearance of the power of the One. Barad Dur fell at once, but Lorien faded in a few years: it is not like all the mallorns disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke. I think the nazgul had very little time left to live anyway (a few hours maybe or a few days), as the Nine rings were weaker than the Three and more connected to the One. I don't know for sure.
I agree. The Nine, Seven, and Three were originally independent of the One, at least before Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire. That leads to two distinct conclusions: (1) the other Great Rings of Power were capable of works independently of Sauron and the One Ring; and (2) the power of the One over them was insidious, like a back-door computer Trojan that slowly takes over your laptop.

The works of the other Rings might not then end abruptly, but tail off either quickly or slowly after the destruction of the One Ring. If the One was designed both to draw power from others to Sauron and to enslave their wills to Sauron, its destruction seems to have created a “hole� into which the power sustaining the works of the other Rings drained. “I don't know for sure� either, but I think it makes sense.



I didn’t remember this point. I don’t want to seem churlish, but do you remember whether that was in the published LotR or the draft versions?
It is in LOTR main text, when Bilbo packs before leaving Bag End.

From a locked drawer, smelling of moth-balls, [Bilbo] took out an old cloak and hood. They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could hardly be guessed: it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him. -A Long-expected Party



Here I must disagree, but I do not think you will be disappointed. From Hobbit, “Roast Mutton�, when Bilbo first sets off on his Adventure without his pocket-handkerchief,

…Bilbo was wearing a dark-green hood (a little weather-stained) and a dark-green cloak borrowed from Dwalin. They were too large for him, and he looked rather comic.

[Gordis]

The works of the other Rings might not then end abruptly, but tail off either quickly or slowly after the destruction of the One Ring. If the One was designed both to draw power from others to Sauron and to enslave their wills to Sauron, its destruction seems to have created a “hole� into which the power sustaining the works of the other Rings drained. “I don't know for sure� either, but I think it makes sense.

I like this "hole" conception. Makes a lot of sense.

Actually it again deserves a new thread, but I have always wondered, would the destruction of four of the 19 lead to a "hole" in the One, draining it of some power? Would the destruction of all the 19 leave the Ruling Ring almost powerless?

Here I must disagree, but I do not think you will be disappointed. From Hobbit, “Roast Mutton�, when Bilbo first sets off on his Adventure without his pocket-handkerchief,He-he, good catch. So the cloak has always been too big for Bilbo.:) Well, then perhaps our dear old hobbit was not yet too far gone in fading to stop eating...:D

[CAB]

I think it was like that. Bilbo was 50 when he got the Ring. He remained the same age (physically) until 3001, then started to age again. So by 3018 he was 50+17=67 years old physically. With the Ring destroyed, he became 111+17=128 years old all of a sudden, which is very old for a hobbit.

As for Gollum, let us say he was 17 in TA 2463, when he got the Ring. He was physically still 17 when he lost it in 2941. He started to age almost normally, so by 3018 he was 17+77= 94 - old, but still fit and quite well adapted to the life in the wilderness. However he knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.)

Just to be an irritating, technical, pain in the neck. :D

I can't agree with the idea that the rings completely stopped the aging process. That they greatly slowed down the process, I don't doubt, but not stopped.

We know, for instance, that the bodies of Gollum and the Nazgul changed (as you pointed out) while they were in possession of the rings. Change can not exist without the passing of time. (I think it can also be argued that time can't exist without change. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between these two terms.) The changing of the body over time could probably be used as a definition for aging.

Also, it wouldn't make sense that the Elves wanted to live in a completely static world. That would be unnatural for them just as it is for us (and for good reason, life couldn't exist in such a world.) So, it is unlikely that the rings were designed to bring time to a standstill.

On the whole, I like your theory, Gordis. :) But I do have a problem with the whole issue of true "timelessness". At least while dealing with physical bodies. Once the Nazgul became wraiths, things were probably different.

[Alcuin]

Here’s an idea that follows upon the recent discussion and yet ties back into the beginnings of the thread.

The Dwarves claimed that Celebrimbor gave one of the Seven Rings to his friend, Durin III of Khazad-dûm.

Remember the Ring-spell:
Three rings for the Elven kings… Seven for the Dwarf-lords… Nine for Mortal Men.
Sauron planned all along to enslave the Free Peoples: the two EruhÃ*ni and the Dwarves. We know very little about the development of this nefarious plan: was it already fully-formed when first he approached Gil-galad and Galadriel warned that she had known no “Annatar” in the train of Aulë in Valinor? Or might a generous and heart-felt gift of the greatest of the Seven have later inspired Sauron to use the repertoire of Rings enslave not only the Elves but Dwarves – and Men – as well?

Let’s work through Appendix B for the Second Age:


1200 – Sauron endeavors to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenóreans begin to make permanent havens.
ca. 1500 – The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron … begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
ca. 1590 – The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
ca. 1600 – Sauron forges the One Ring... Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.


The Númenóreans’ first permanent haven was Vinyalondë, from which Tar-Minastir’s admiral Ciryatur launched an unexpected, devastating assault upon Sauron’s army from behind.

I think we can say that no Man possessed any of the Nine Rings until after the War between the Elves and Sauron in II 1693–1700. During the war, Sauron recovered the Seven and the Nine, presumably with the exception of Durin’s Ring, but could get no information from Celebrimbor about the disposition of the Three: he apparently assumed that Gil-galad had them, and did not perceive that Galadriel had one. Appendix B says that from ca. II 1800 onward, “The shadow falls on Númenor,” a clear indication that at least one of the Númenóreans with a Ring of Power had returned home and begun to work his Master’s evil will among the Dúnedain.

My questions are these: Did the MÃ*rdain (smiths) of Eregion possess all the Great Rings before II 1693 with the possible exception of Durin’s Ring, or might they have given one to a Númenórean? I’m fairly certain there is no reference of the Eldar giving a Ring to any non-Elf other than Durin III; but can we strictly rule that out? The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave Durin III his ring – are they correct? (I.e., might it have been Sauron disguised as Celebrimbor?) Might Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel have guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were? If, as I have elsewhere asserted, one of them was a prince in the House of Elros (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm), wouldn’t that individual have seemed to live an exceptionally long life even for a member of the House of Elros (and so helped inspire Tar-Atanamir to rebel and refuse to lay down his life)?

And finally, there is Gandalf’s discussion of the Rings with Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring, “Shadow of the Past”,

…sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

I believe Gandalf has a specific person in mind: a Númenórean prince or nobleman later identified as one of the Nine. If Glorfindel went to Middle-earth during or just before the disastrous War between the Elves and Sauron during the Second Age, then he may well have known one or more of these Men; Elrond almost certainly would have known some of them.

And wouldn’t that add a twist to Glorfindel’s confrontation with the Witch-king at the end of the last Battle of Fornost?

Just a thought on Friday evening to spice things up…

[Gordis]

Just to be an irritating, technical, pain in the neck. :D

I can't agree with the idea that the rings completely stopped the aging process. That they greatly slowed down the process, I don't doubt, but not stopped.

We know, for instance, that the bodies of Gollum and the Nazgul changed (as you pointed out) while they were in possession of the rings. Change can not exist without the passing of time. (I think it can also be argued that time can't exist without change. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between these two terms.) The changing of the body over time could probably be used as a definition for aging.

Also, it wouldn't make sense that the Elves wanted to live in a completely static world. That would be unnatural for them just as it is for us (and for good reason, life couldn't exist in such a world.) So, it is unlikely that the rings were designed to bring time to a standstill.

On the whole, I like your theory, Gordis. :) But I do have a problem with the whole issue of true "timelessness". At least while dealing with physical bodies. Once the Nazgul became wraiths, things were probably different.
I agree that the Rings couldn't stop Time, they only made it flow at a much slower rate. But if it were say 100:1, even 30:1, for a Man it would be not much different from the stopped time. Maybe in the 200-300 years after they got the Nine rings, the nazgul aged 2 -3 years, or even 10 years - it wouldn't show much, if at all. In contrast, suffering could make even a slow-ageing Elf become grey and haggard in a few years.

[Gordis]

Sauron planned all along to enslave the Free Peoples: the two EruhÃ*ni and the Dwarves. We know very little about the development of this nefarious plan: was it already fully-formed when first he approached Gil-galad and Galadriel warned that she had known no “Annatarâ€� in the train of Aulë in Valinor? Or might a generous and heart-felt gift of the greatest of the Seven have later inspired Sauron to use the repertoire of Rings enslave not only the Elves but Dwarves – and Men – as well?
I think at first Sauron planned to use all the Rings to enslave Elves. The Eldar were still strong in ME and a pain in the neck for Sauron. Numenoreans had only one haven in ME, and after Ancalime's times almost stopped to help the Eldar (Aldarion and Erendis). They reappeared in force only in 1700. Dwarves, IMO, were hardly a threat to Sauron, as long as he left them alone. Recently in "Narya" thread we have been discussing Sauron's plans with CAB. Please have a look, Alcuin.

I think we can say that no Man possessed any of the Nine Rings until after the War between the Elves and Sauron in II 1693–1700. During the war, Sauron recovered the Seven and the Nine, presumably with the exception of Durin’s Ring, but could get no information from Celebrimbor about the disposition of the Three: he apparently assumed that Gil-galad had them, and did not perceive that Galadriel had one.
I think Sauron must have guessed that Galadriel had got one of the Three. He had seen Celebrimbor and Galadriel together, witnessed their friendship, he knew of Celebrimbor's admiration for her. Also see here:
Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter.
[...]But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador: Lórinand could wait. Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;
Sauron didn't think all the Three would be in Lindon, and the attack of Lorinand was definitely on his tasks list.

Appendix B says that from ca. II 1800 onward, “The shadow falls on Númenor,� a clear indication that at least one of the Númenóreans with a Ring of Power had returned home and begun to work his Master’s evil will among the Dúnedain.
I agree. And this Numenorean was definitely a very high-ranking person to have such an influence.
My questions are these: 1. Did the MÃ*rdain (smiths) of Eregion possess all the Great Rings before II 1693 with the possible exception of Durin’s Ring, or might they have given one to a Númenórean? 2. I’m fairly certain there is no reference of the Eldar giving a Ring to any non-Elf other than Durin III; but can we strictly rule that out?
I am certain the Elves had not given a ring to a Man. The Mirdain had no recorded contacts with Numenoreans prior to 1700. Celebrimbor was well aware of the ring's properties, its connection with the Spirit World. He wouldn't try to experiment with a second-born, it would be a wicked thing to do. For the last reason I doubt Celebrimbor would ever give a Ring to Durin.

3. The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave Durin III his ring – are they correct? (I.e., might it have been Sauron disguised as Celebrimbor?)
No, I don't believe he did, see above. Quite probably Durin got the Ring from Sauron disguised as an Elf, messenger from Celebrimbor, already after Celebrimbor had been slain.

4. Might Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel have guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were? If one of them was a prince in the House of Elros, wouldn’t that individual have seemed to live an exceptionally long life even for a member of the House of Elros?
I am sure the Elves had guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were.
After all, the future nazgul must have stood like a sore thumb among the Island nobility. Just imagine it after a few centuries: a youthful-looking great-grandfather at the funeral of his ancient wife, grey children, greying grandchildren... After some time, the ring-wielders likely chose to settle in Middle-Earth, just to avoid curious looks - and that would bring them closer to the attention of the Elves.

Their fading must have looked like a devastating disease: cancer or something - and that among the nation that never knew illness... And then the report would come that those three had not died after all, but moved to Barad-Dur. At this point their names would be erased from Numenorean chronicles, only the dark tale would remain. And the dark tale of the three Numenorean lords who had joined the Enemy proved to be very persistent: Faramir heard it, though he knew not even that Isildur took the Ring.

Elrond, of course, would not be eager to reveal the Witch-King's name to anybody: it was his skeleton in the closet. It is bad PR to admit that your nephew ten times removed is now Sauron's right hand.

…sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him. I believe Gandalf has a specific person in mind: a Númenórean prince or nobleman later identified as one of the Nine.
As written in the drafts in HOME 6-7 (and this passage was an early element of the story), Gandalf's words likely referred to the Wizard King, head of his order, who had been ensnared by Sauron long ago. It seemed Gandalf had been an eye-witness of his colleague’s fading. But after Tolkien promoted Ganadlf to a Maia;), this plotline had to be abandoned. If we suppose that the passage still refers to the Witch-King, then likely Gandalf got a first-hand account from somebody else. Glorfindel seems a likely choice.

If Glorfindel went to Middle-earth during or just before the disastrous War between the Elves and Sauron during the Second Age, then he may well have known one or more of these Men; Elrond almost certainly would have known some of them.
And wouldn’t that add a twist to Glorfindel’s confrontation with the Witch-king at the end of the last Battle of Fornost?.
Great minds...:D
Here (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=470158&postcount=3)
I believe Glorfindel and the WK were well acquainted in the Second Age. They must have come together to the ME from Numenor and fought side-by side against Sauron. That's why the WK was reluctant to fight Glorfindel and the latter has not tried to pursue him. And people normally don't make prophesies about the fate of total strangers they don't care about...

[CAB]

But if it were say 100:1, even 30:1, for a Man it would be not much different from the stopped time. Maybe in the 200-300 years after they got the Nine rings, the nazgul aged 2 -3 years, or even 10 years - it wouldn't show much, if at all. In contrast, suffering could make even a slow-ageing Elf become grey and haggard in a few years.
Agreed and agreed.


Did the MÃ*rdain (smiths) of Eregion possess all the Great Rings before II 1693 with the possible exception of Durin’s Ring, or might they have given one to a Númenórean? I’m fairly certain there is no reference of the Eldar giving a Ring to any non-Elf other than Durin III; but can we strictly rule that out?

I agree with Gordis. The properties of the rings that made them stretch Men's lives were almost certainly in them from their beginning. This is not likely to be some twist that Sauron later added after recovering the rings. The Mirdain had to guess that the rings would be unhealthy for Men and may have assumed they would be unhealthy for the Dwarves also (who, of course, were no more immortal than Men).


The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave Durin III his ring – are they correct? (I.e., might it have been Sauron disguised as Celebrimbor?)

I don't believe this claim. Aside from the reasons mentioned before, this story reminds me of Gollum's "birthday present" and Bilbo's supposed "winning" of the Ring. It sounds like an attempt to put legitimacy on their possession of their ring.


Might Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel have guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were?

I think probably yes. I also wonder if they weren't familiar with one or more of the other Nazgul. A powerful leader among the Second Age ancestors of the Men of Rohan would likely have made an excellent target for Sauron. I am not sure that they had yet inhabited the area around Mirkwood at this time (where, I believe, they could be found for much of the Third Age), but surely they were somewhere in north-western Middle Earth. There were probably other outstanding individuals among other groups of Men in north-western Middle Earth who were on Sauron's list of potentials.


If, as I have elsewhere asserted, one of them was a prince in the House of Elros (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm), wouldn’t that individual have seemed to live an exceptionally long life even for a member of the House of Elros (and so helped inspire Tar-Atanamir to rebel and refuse to lay down his life)?

If I haven't mentioned it before, Alcuin, I have looked at your site before and found your ideas to be very convincing. Thank you for putting it up. :)

I agree that the Shadow falling on Numenor coincided with the future Witch King, a man in the royal house, receiving a ring (an opinion I developed while reading your theories on the matter) along with two other Numenoreans. It could have been the lengthened lifespans of these men that was the primary thing that inspired the King, or his refusal may have been more of a consequence of the other negative influences these men had. Voluntarily laying down one's life was something done by those umm...of purer thought. Atanamir had been corrupted. I'm not really disagreeing with your suggestion, but I do think there was probably more to it than just the King seeing the exceptional lifespan of the ring-holders.

[Alcuin]

I think at first Sauron planned to use all the Rings to enslave Elves.
I agree: the Ring-spell would appear to be a emendation in his plans.

I doubt Celebrimbor would ever give a Ring to Durin. ... Quite probably Durin got the Ring from Sauron disguised as an Elf, messenger from Celebrimbor, already after Celebrimbor had been slain.andThe properties of the rings that made them stretch Men's lives were almost certainly in them from their beginning. This is not likely to be some twist that Sauron later added after recovering the rings. The Mirdain had to guess that the rings would be unhealthy for Men and may have assumed they would be unhealthy for the Dwarves also (who, of course, were no more immortal than Men).I am uncertain about this one. I don’t disagree: I am simply uncertain. Celebrimbor might well have understood enough about the Rings to know that it was unlikely to affect the lifespan of a Dwarf: without necromantic effects, the Rings would not be evil. Moreover, by constructing and using the Great Rings of Power, MÃ*rdain themselves were breaking “the rules”: they were themselves attempting to avoid the effects of time and manipulate Middle-earth using the spirit-realm in ways that Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond, and CÃ*rdan had rejected: it doesn’t make sense that Celebrimbor or his companions would suddenly have pangs of conscience about giving a Ring to his most important ally and trading partner. The effects of the Rings on the Dwarves was to make them greedy and irascible: but that might have been an effect brought on by the malice of the One Ring operating through the Seven rather than a native power of one of the Seven Rings: I do not believe the MÃ*rdain could have been cozened into making an artifact that, in and of itself, effected evil or evil influence.

That conclusion, I think, also opens the way for the Noldorin smiths to hand a Ring over to a Númenórean; but I agree that there do not seem to be any writings, inferences, or hints of any sort that this happened. I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-Edhil; but I think it is a stretch. As with the Seven Rings, I think the Nine Rings had no native evil effect when the MÃ*rdain made them: Gandalf believed they were dangerous to Mortals because of the power they could wield using the Rings, but he did not call them evil in and of themselves.

My question on this front is, can we rule out the MÃ*rdain giving a Ring to a Númenórean? Very nearly, perhaps; much less so, I think, with Durin III.

In turning two of the Three Rings over to Gil-galad, and Nenya over to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was, in essence, confessing his sins.

First in regards to Gil-galad, who was the rightful High King of the Noldor, against whom Celebrimbor had effectively rebelled, set up Eregion, and run his own affairs as he saw fit: the last stronghold of the Fëanorians in Middle-earth. Celebrimbor was the last king from Fëanor’s line in either Middle-earth or Eldamar: he was apparently the only survivor on either side of the Great Sea of all the descendents of his famous grandfather with the seven sons, more sons than any other of the Eldar. Handing Gil-galad Vilya and Narya meant, basically, that Celebrimbor was saying (and may well have vocalized), I was wrong, and you were right, Gil-galad. Take these things, the greatest and perhaps the last of all my works, that I cannot bear to lose to Sauron, who deceived me despite your warnings, and guard them. You are my rightful liege-lord. Now I’m going back to confront my fate.
Galadriel had dwelt in Eregion, too, and in at least one of the accounts of her histories (in Unfinished Tales), it was she, not Celebrimbor, who founded Eregion. Because she counseled against receiving “Annatar” and his knowledge, Celebrimbor rebelled against her, and she passed over (or under) the Redhorn Gate to Lothlórien, where she remained. By giving Nenya to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was admitting that he and the MÃ*rdain were in the wrong.
That Sauron in disguise had poisoned Celebrimbor’s reasoning in the same way that his master Morgoth poisoned the reasoning of Fëanor, his grandfather, makes a nice literary parallel. That Celebrimbor can admit his error, whatever its cause, repent, make amends, and face the consequences shows what a compete break he made with his father’s house: it was his redemption, I think, though a miserably hard one: Sauron tortured him to death. Celebrimbor son of Curufin is a flawed character, but of heroic proportions.

But among real-world Mortal Men, there is always that little bit of pride that hangs on, and I think it may have been in Celebrimbor, too: the next-greatest Ring of Power in possession of the Elves was the greatest of the Seven. I think he sought to hide it, too, from Sauron: Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond and CÃ*rdan, and all their counselors, would have no means of knowing this unless Celebrimbor told them: I don’t think he did.

When Unfinished Tales was published, CJR Tolkien added an in-line parenthetical note to the essay “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”:

It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.

In order to argue that Sauron gave the Ring to Durin III, I think we have to believe that Sauron not only obtained the greatest of the Seven Rings from Celebrimbor before Celebrimbor was dead, but also before the West Gate to Moria was shut: in other words, before his attack on Eregion began.

There is another way in which Durin III could have come into legitimate possession of his Ring, and that is from escapees of the MÃ*rdain whom he rescued. Elrond had been sent from Lindon to Eregion by Gil-galad with an expeditionary force to try to keep Sauron at bay; when that failed (op. cit.),

[Sauron] turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond … would … have been overwhelmed had not Sauron’s host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand [Lórien]…

Elrond led what remained of his force from Lindon and the survivors of the Elves of Eregion to a mountain fastness that became Rivendell. It is quite possible that Durin obtained his Ring of Power from any survivors he and Amroth of Lórinand rescued; alternatively, the Dwarves might have found and kept the Ring, claiming the MÃ*rdain gave it to them, as CAB suggests, in “an attempt to put legitimacy on their possession of their ring.”

I am uncertain whether Tolkien left this situation deliberately vague, whether the decisive text remains unpublished (or at least unknown to me), if he himself were undecided, or if he is telling us that the Wise either didn’t know how it came into the possession of Durin III, or that Men either never learned it of them or else failed to successfully pass along what they learned to later generations, a failing all too common by the end of the Third Age.

My instinct, for whatever it’s worth, is that Durin III did indeed obtain the Ring legitimately, and that this was a further cause for Sauron to hate Durin’s Folk.

This is a very long post, so before I’m out of space, I’d like to return to Rings and Men. First, thank you, CAB, for your compliment on my essay. Now I have another question to ponder: did the Númenóreans even know what the War between the Elves and Sauron was about? I can imagine that Gil-galad chose not to tell Minastir about the Rings of Power. I don’t believe he concealed that information: it would be dishonest – and quite dangerous – to conceal from one’s critical ally the nature and causes of the war, even if they were not widely spoken abroad: but perhaps that information was not so secret in the middle of the Second Age. We are not told. But in context of what we know about Elves, it just doesn’t stand to reason, in my opinion, that Gil-galad would fail to tell Minastir what was really going on. (It also begs the question, did the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm know the reasons for the war? They were the closest allies of the Elves of Eregion, and other than “Annatar,” the deepest in their counsels before the war.)

Before you make a judgment on this, consider that Boromir and Faramir knew quite a bit about Sauron and the One Ring: when Sam let slip that Boromir wanted the Enemy’s Ring in Henneth Annûn, Faramir put all the pieces of the puzzle together immediately. (His subsequent “I could have It now” display is remarkably similar to Aragorn’s at the Prancing Pony.) Boromir and Faramir are at the tail-end of Dúnedain upper-class lore and knowledge: their forebears knew far more, especially before their fall midway through the Second Age. Besides that, the Dwarves knew about the Rings, too: Thorin knew about it, and so did Glóin, who was cousin to both Thorin and Dáin II: the rulers and nobility of Middle-earth, the educated folk, knew about the Rings of Power. They might not have had complete or accurate information, but they knew about them.

If Minastir and his generals and admirals knew why they were fighting, then why would any right-thinking Númenórean in Middle-earth in the Second Age not long after a war over Rings of Power accept a ring from a stranger?

Even if the average Second Age Dúnedain sailor, infantryman, or archer knew little about the Rings of Power, the Dúnedain nobility almost certainly did. Now, I can imagine that one or two Númenórean noblemen might have been led astray by dreams of wealth and power, but at least one of them, the greatest of them, might not have been so tempted. That brings me back to Gandalf’s comments to Frodo,
…sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.
I think that the fall of the man who became the Witch-king was through a desire to “set things right.” You can see a glimpse of it in further comments by Gandalf in his conversation with Frodo, and later in Frodo’s confrontation, if I may call it that, with Galadriel:
[Frodo said, ]“…You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?”

“No!” cried Gandalf… “With that power I should have power too great and terrible. … Do not tempt me! … the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good…”and
[Sam said, ]“…I think my master was right. I wish you’d take his Ring. You’d put things to rights…”

“I would,” [Galadriel] said. “That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!...”

And now we come to the last point.

If the Númenóreans knew about the One Ring, then why didn’t Ar-Pharazôn demand that Sauron deliver up the One Ring to him when Sauron “surrendered” to him?

[Gordis]

Celebrimbor might well have understood enough about the Rings to know that it was unlikely to affect the lifespan of a Dwarf: without necromantic effects, the Rings would not be evil.
The Seven did confer invisibility, did transfer a person into the Spirit World. Only the Three didn't confer invisibility. So the Seven were potentially dangerous (Gandalf said in the "Shadow of the Past" that ALL the Elven Rings were dangerous for mortals, while the Great Rings -all of them- were perilous.)

One had to know a lot about the nature of the Dwarves, not about the nature of the rings, to predict that the folk of Aule wouldn't be much affected. I doubt even Sauron understood it beforehand. Experimenting on his good friend and ally Durin like on a laboratory mouse seems too evil for Celebrimbor. For all he knew, ANYTHING could happen to the Dwarf - especially taking into account the possible long-term effects. Indeed, if one monitored Men with the Nine, at the beginning everything must have seemed perfect - the transformation into Elves seemed achieved. But later... well... you know. So Celebrimbor couldn't have predicted anything for sure.

I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-Edhil
I doubt any would be welcome to nose around: it was a top secret laboratory.
As with the Seven Rings, I think the Nine Rings had no native evil effect when the MÃ*rdain made them: Gandalf believed they were dangerous to Mortals because of the power they could wield using the Rings, but he did not call them evil in and of themselves.I disagree: the Nine Rings (and the Seven) were dangerous to Men all by themselves, because they unnaturally prolonged human lives, allowed unauthorized access into the Spirit world and eventually turned Men into wraiths.

Yes, the Rings were not really evil all by themselves, the Elves made them with good intent - but they made them for Elves, not Men or Dwarves. With an unspecific target any remedy may turn to poison - or may be ineffective. It reminds me of a story that has happened with one of my friends and her cat. My not-too-bright friend once tried to give her cat a human contraceptive. Being a human physician, she calculated the mass ratios very carefully, so the dose was OK for the cat's weight. Yet the poor cat almost died of it. The veterinary who saved the cat explained that some human drugs are pure poison for felines in any quantity - while for pigs human drugs are OK.

My question on this front is, can we rule out the MÃ*rdain giving a Ring to a Númenórean? Very nearly, perhaps; much less so, I think, with Durin III. I think Celebrimbor and the Mirdain hardly planned to disseminate their Rings even among other Elves, much less among Men and Dwarves. The Mirdain likely put huge chunks of their own fëar into the Rings - would they give them away so easily? One exception would be Galadriel, but Celebrimbor loved her....

In turning two of the Three Rings over to Gil-galad, and Nenya over to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was, in essence, confessing his sins. Yes, he did it when he was already a broken man - all hopes lost. I doubt he planned to give a ring to Gil-galad before 1600.

But among real-world Mortal Men, there is always that little bit of pride that hangs on, and I think it may have been in Celebrimbor, too: the next-greatest Ring of Power in possession of the Elves was the greatest of the Seven. I think he sought to hide it, too, from Sauron: Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond and CÃ*rdan, and all their counselors, would have no means of knowing this unless Celebrimbor told them: I don’t think he did.
That is another matter - he could have given the ring to Durin after 1600, to hide it. But then he must have warned the Dwarf never to use it. It doesn't seem he did, because Durin and his descendants used the Rings in the SA.

In order to argue that Sauron gave the Ring to Durin III, I think we have to believe that Sauron not only obtained the greatest of the Seven Rings from Celebrimbor before Celebrimbor was dead, but also before the West Gate to Moria was shut: in other words, before his attack on Eregion began. The Gates of Moria were not always shut and sealed - Durin sent a host out of the Gate and let Amroth's host pass through Moria as well, I guess Durin also rescued those of the Mirdain who were lucky enough to make it to Moria.
I can devise at least three schemes to give the Ring to Durin without arising any suspicion. Note that Sauron, being the notorious deceiver (which I am not;)) could probably devise 300 schemes, one more brilliant than another.

Here are mine:
1.Sauron could pose as one of the surviving Mirdain, who came to deliver a Ring to Durin "at the late Celebrimbor's bidding".
2. Sauron could come to Durin in the guise of Celebrimbor himself, while the latter was sitting in a dungeon. Celebrimbor's fate remained unknown for some time, before his body was exposed on a pole by Sauron. (Remember that Saruman had no trouble to impersonate Gandalf - so Sauron could easily impersonate Celebrimbor, whom he knew so well).
3. Sauron could deliberately let one of the mortally wounded Mirdain escape with a ring to Moria. The Elf dies, his ring naturally goes to Durin, and no one suspects a trap.

There is another way in which Durin III could have come into legitimate possession of his Ring, and that is from escapees of the MÃ*rdain whom he rescued. Exactly my last plan.;)

the Dwarves might have found and kept the Ring, claiming the MÃ*rdain gave it to them, as CAB suggests, in “an attempt to put legitimacy on their possession of their ring.” And here is another possible scheme - a ring miraculously found right in front of Moria doors.;)

Only one thing seems certain to me: Durin wouldn't accept the Ring from Sauron if the latter was not concealing his identity. Thus there had to be some devious scheme used.

My instinct, for whatever it’s worth, is that Durin III did indeed obtain the Ring legitimately, and that this was a further cause for Sauron to hate Durin’s Folk. I think the Dwarves indeed BELIEVED they had obtained it legitimately, but in reality it did come from Sauron.

Now I have another question to ponder: did the Númenóreans even know what the War between the Elves and Sauron was about? I can imagine that Gil-galad chose not to tell Minastir about the Rings of Power. I don’t believe he concealed that information: it would be dishonest – and quite dangerous – to conceal from one’s critical ally the nature and causes of the war, even if they were not widely spoken abroad: but perhaps that information was not so secret in the middle of the Second Age. We are not told. But in context of what we know about Elves, it just doesn’t stand to reason, in my opinion, that Gil-galad would fail to tell Minastir what was really going on.

If Minastir and his generals and admirals knew why they were fighting, then why would any right-thinking Númenórean in Middle-earth in the Second Age not long after a war over Rings of Power accept a ring from a stranger?

If the Númenóreans knew about the One Ring, then why didn’t Ar-Pharazôn demand that Sauron deliver up the One Ring to him when Sauron “surrendered” to him?

To all these questions there is a very simple answer: the Second Age Numenoreans didn't know about the Rings of Power - at least not about the existence of the Ruling Ring. The "noble" Elven lords failed to tell their allies and saviors what this war was about, as dishonest as it may seem.
I am not speculating. See this quote:
Sauron naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. L#211

The Kings of Numenor from Tar-Minastir to Ar-Pharazon knew nothing on the subject. There was no loremaster in Numenor to enlighten them.

The Elves had deceived their main allies and continued to keep the secret as long as they could - I guess till Sauron has reappeared alive and hale after the Downfall and attacked Gondor.

"But how?" asks Isildur. "Hasn't Sauron perished with Numenor?"
"Well, he has this Ring, you know" reply the Elves guiltily.
"No, in fact I don't know. What Ring?"

Right before the Last Alliance Gil-Galad must have confessed his sins to Elendil and Isildur and told them the truth about the Rings and about the ancient War. Perhaps guilt made the Elves join the Alliance in the first place. From then on the Ring-Lore had become general knowledge, but even that was slowly becoming forgotten by 3018.

What did the Elves tell Tar-Minastir when they asked for help? Most likely that the Evil Sauron had attacked Eregion coveting the works of the Mirdain - which was the truth, but not the whole truth.

The future nazgul had no idea what rings they received and from whom. Rings of power made by Elves - that would be all. Nothing sinister there: Elven works of craft were normally wholesome and highly prized things. They had no idea that their Rings were subject to the Ruling Ring, and I guess they were quite surprised to discover it. And discover it they did, but too late for them.

Naturally they couldn't broadcast their predicament, but their feelings towards the Elves who had deceived them would turn to hatred. As the future nazgul were high Numenorean lords, their attitude towards the Elves would influence their compatriots - and here we come to the “inexplicable” estrangement of Numenoreans from Elves right after they had been allies in the victorious war.

[Alcuin]

<sigh> And after I waxed all so eloquent… Ah, well, it is a good thing that this is not my day job!

The Seven did confer invisibility, did transfer a person into the Spirit World. Only the Three didn't confer invisibility.
I finally read the thread “Narya - a gift for Annatar?” (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=14989). In formulating a post for it, I came across this from “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” in Silmarillion, Seven Rings [Sauron] gave to the Dwarveswhich is about as direct a statement as they come. I concede the point.

The essay continues, Dwarves … proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron…

Men ... who used the Nine Rings ... could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; ... they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. I’ve always read the passage that Dwarves cannot “be turned to shadows” to mean they could not be made invisible; but since the passage continues that Men, “became for ever invisible …, and they entered into the realm of shadows,” I suppose I should reconsider.

I think the Dwarves indeed BELIEVED they had obtained it legitimately…I agree whole-heartedly……but in reality it did come from Sauron.<sigh> <pout> Spoil-sport.

-|-


I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-EdhilI doubt any would be welcome to nose around: it was a top secret laboratory.
On this I can’t agree. Economics is little discussed in any of Tolkien’s work, but I think it is abundantly clear that Ost-in-Edhil was in contact with and traded with the Dwarves and the other Elf-kingdoms. The workshops of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain were almost certainly off-limits, but the Noldor thought they had no reason to be fearful. 47 centuries later, when Aragorn led the Company of the Ring through the ruins, Frodo recognized “the remains of an ancient road that had once been broad and well planned from Hollin to the mountain-pass.” (Two Towers, “Ring Goes South”) Elves or no, trade and commerce are essential to organized communities. We are told there was heavy trade with Khazad-dûm, and there was also probably considerable trade with Lindon. Even if, as is likely, Annatar-Sauron discouraged contact with the Númenóreans, the Elves of Eregion probably traded with the newcomers, too: their main base was at Vinyalondë at the mouth of the Gwathló, and Tharbad, the main inland port, was hard by Eregion.

Sauron naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. L#211
The Kings of Numenor from Tar-Minastir to Ar-Phartazon knew nothing on the subject. There was no loremaster in Numenor to enlighten them. Yes, that looks familiar, too.

Well, so much for that speculative venture. About the only thing I think I can salvage is that it was fun, and that I think there was a lot of traffic – what we modern folk call “business” – going on in and through and around Eregion. There had to be, or the Elves there would not have been wealthy, as I think they plainly were: Tolkien separately enumerates the acquisition of wealth and power as attributes of the Seven and the Nine, and as Thrór told Thráin his son of his Ring, “it needs gold to breed gold.” ([RotK], Appendix A, “Durin’s Folk”)

But maybe I can pull a chestnut out of the fire.

The Great East Road that ran through The Shire was of extreme antiquity, going back to the First Age. It had been constructed by the Dwarves as a means of travel from Nogrod and Belegost to the mines of the Iron Hills. Eregion’s capital Ost-in-Edhil was probably along the road that originally ran from Nogrod and Belegost to Khazad-dûm: in at least one telling of the tale, Galadriel founded Eregion around II 700.

It’s always struck me as curious that Rivendell was “secret,” yet it was quite near the main east-west route across north-western Middle-earth. I think I can explain that now.

I think the text is clear that Nogrod was completely ruined at the end of the First Age: the maps show the Gulf of Lhûn where Nogrod once lay. Belegost lay to the south (Fonstad in Atlas of Middle-earth has Belegost more than 150 miles south of Nogrod as the crow flies, doubtless much further for travelers), and if it was not completely destroyed (I think that’s the correct inference), then it was heavily damaged. We know that most of the survivors of these two great cities joined Durin’s people in Khazad-dûm early in the Second Age.

That means that the Great East Road was little traveled for a while. The principal trade route of Eriador must have shifted south, from Lindon across Sarn Ford, through Tharbad (where the Númenóreans later built and maintained an enormous causeway-and-bridge that survived nearly but not quite intact until Boromir attempted to use it getting to Rivendell: that’s where he lost his horse), and on to Khazad-dûm, Lórien, Greenwood, and finally the Iron Hills. Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil lay along the road from Tharbad to Khazad-dûm. The Dwarves of Khazad-dûm controlled both the Redhorn Gate (Pass) over the mountains and the route under and through the mountains; besides that, they were themselves a major center for manufacturing, trade, and commerce.

Sauron and his army were apt to overlook a secluded valley, even near the old road. I don’t suppose he went in for such things as beautiful little valleys only the local Elves knew about. Once ensconced, I’m sure Elrond began covering his tracks, and did everything he could to keep it secret, at which Tolkien repeatedly indicates he was quite successful.


Naturally [the three Númenóreans trapped by Sauron] couldn't broadcast their predicament, but their feelings towards the Elves who had deceived them would turn to hatred. As the future nazgul were high Numenorean lords, their attitude towards the Elves would influence their compatriots - and here we come to the “inexplicable” estrangement of Numenoreans from Elves right after they had been allies in the victorious war.Good point. Sauron’s army was annihilated in II 1700, and he barely made it back to Mordor with his bodyguards. “The shadow falls on Númenor” just 100 years later. All three of these men might have been serving in court when the emissaries arrived from Valinor to try to reason with Tar-Atanamir. In the various versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê” presented in Sauron Defeated, the hostility of Tar-Atanamir and his court toward the Eldar is otherwise almost inexplicable; hence “the shadow” on Númenor. It wasn’t just Sauron’s evil will alone that drove these Men to denigrate the Elves, but a real sense of betrayal.

[CAB]

I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-Edhil

I doubt any would be welcome to nose around: it was a top secret laboratory.

I agree with Alcuin here. It was unnecessary to ban all traffic to Ost-in-Edhil. To do so would have been a politically and economically crippling mistake that would have drawn an enormous amount of suspicion from all corners.

Edit: Maybe, Gordis, you weren't suggesting that the Elves went to this extreme?




Naturally they couldn't broadcast their predicament, but their feelings towards the Elves who had deceived them would turn to hatred. As the future nazgul were high Numenorean lords, their attitude towards the Elves would influence their compatriots - and here we come to the “inexplicable” estrangement of Numenoreans from Elves right after they had been allies in the victorious war.
Good point. Sauron’s army was annihilated in II 1700, and he barely made it back to Mordor with his bodyguards. “The shadow falls on Númenor” just 100 years later. All three of these men might have been serving in court when the emissaries arrived from Valinor to try to reason with Tar-Atanamir. In the various versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê” presented in Sauron Defeated, the hostility of Tar-Atanamir and his court toward the Eldar is otherwise almost inexplicable; hence “the shadow” on Númenor. It wasn’t just Sauron’s evil will alone that drove these Men to denigrate the Elves, but a real sense of betrayal.
I agree with Alcuin again - This is an excellent suggestion, Gordis.

Alcuin, I like your idea about the trade route moving south in the Second Age and about this being part of the reason that Rivendell's location was able to remain a secret. It really is a shame that Tolkien didn't give us more information regarding the economies in Middle Earth. I prefer to consider Middle Earth as "realistically" as possible, but it is difficult given that trade in some ways seems to have been absolutely negligible (we hear very little about it, different groups of people seem very isolated, etc.) and yet in other ways it seems absolutely necessary to explain what we see (could these very advanced societies possibly have existed without trade and the exchange of ideas that accompanies it?).

I had an idea a while back that I hoped would provide some evidence that the economies in Middle Earth were more advanced than might otherwise be thought. I think I will start a new thread based on this idea within the next week or so. Given your knowledge concerning these kinds of matters in the real world, Alcuin, I hope you will find the time to comment on it. Gordis, of course you surely know that I am always looking for your input.

[Gordis]

The essay continues, I’ve always read the passage that Dwarves cannot “be turned to shadows” to mean they could not be made invisible; but since the passage continues that Men, “became for ever invisible …, and they entered into the realm of shadows,” I suppose I should reconsider. I don't think you have to reconsider. There is one clear statement about it in a draft of LotR:
'In the ancient days the dark master made many Rings, and he dealt them out lavishly, so that they might be spread abroad to ensnare folk. The elves had many, and there are now many elf- wraiths in the world; the goblins had some and their wraiths are very evil and wholly under the command of the Lord. The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible. In them it only kindled to flames the fire of greed, and the foundation of each of the seven hoards of the Dwarves of old was a golden ring. In this way the master controlled them. But these hoards are destroyed, and the dragons have devoured them, and the rings are melted, or so some say. “Of Gollum and the Ring” in The Return of the Shadow.)

I agree whole-heartedly…<sigh> <pout> Spoil-sport.Come on, don't be so sad, still I enjoyed your hypothesis immensely.:) As you said, it was fun.

On this I can’t agree. Economics is little discussed in any of Tolkien’s work, but I think it is abundantly clear that Ost-in-Edhil was in contact with and traded with the Dwarves and the other Elf-kingdoms. The workshops of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain were almost certainly off-limits, but the Noldor thought they had no reason to be fearful. 47 centuries later, when Aragorn led the Company of the Ring through the ruins, Frodo recognized “the remains of an ancient road that had once been broad and well planned from Hollin to the mountain-pass.” (Two Towers, “Ring Goes South”) Elves or no, trade and commerce are essential to organized communities. We are told there was heavy trade with Khazad-dûm, and there was also probably considerable trade with Lindon. Even if, as is likely, Annatar-Sauron discouraged contact with the Númenóreans, the Elves of Eregion probably traded with the newcomers, too: their main base was at Vinyalondë at the mouth of the Gwathló, and Tharbad, the main inland port, was hard by Eregion.This makes a lot of sense.
As CAB said, I really didn't think that Celebrimbor ever closed his borders to Men, such as Numenorean woodcutters or soldiers from Vinyalonde, and certainly he did have wonderful relations with Moria Dwarves.

I was thinking more in term of noble Numenorean visitors to Ost-in Edhil (as we were discussing the possibility of delivering a Ring to a Numenorean lord prior to 1697). I still don't think there were many of them, if any.

I imagine that in the SA there was a sort of short sight-seeing routine for the noble Numenoreans visiting ME. For early visitors, like Aldarion or Veantur, to visit Lindon and say "Hi" to Gil-Galad and to great-...-great uncle Elrond would be a must, then to sail to Vinyalonde and take care of it. But I am not sure any of them ventured as far as Eregion, especially after Celebrimbor's rebellion in 1400, considering the strained relations of Eregion with Lindon. I imagine Celebrimbor might refuse a visa for a Numenorean lord, just to spite Gil-Galad, who had refused a visa for Annatar.:D

Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar. They would tell about him in Numenor, and there were still a lot of Elves from Tol-Eressea visiting the Island. The news of the Maia Aulendil could easily travel to Valinor itself, maybe even to Aule, and what is worse, the reply could travel back the same way: the next visitor could bring a warning against him.

Then, it may be just my impression, but it seems the Numenoreans of note rarely sailed to ME between the times of Aldarion and Ciryatan. We know that "After Aldarion's death Ancalime neglected all his policies and gave no further aid to Gil-galad"- The Line of Elros. It was the young Ciryatan and his followers who resumed coming to ME on a regular basis. I guess they visited not only Lindon, but also Rivendell and traveled along the Great Road, saw the Great Barrows and the Hithaeglir, saw the ruins of Eregion and probably founded a settlement in Tharbad. But it was already after 1700.

It’s always struck me as curious that Rivendell was “secret,” yet it was quite near the main east-west route across north-western Middle-earth. I think I can explain that now. [...] That means that the Great East Road was little traveled for a while. The principal trade route of Eriador must have shifted south, from Lindon across Sarn Ford, through Tharbad
You must be quite right here, Alcuin. Very enlightening.

Good point. Sauron’s army was annihilated in II 1700, and he barely made it back to Mordor with his bodyguards. “The shadow falls on Númenor” just 100 years later. All three of these men might have been serving in court when the emissaries arrived from Valinor to try to reason with Tar-Atanamir. In the various versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê” presented in Sauron Defeated, the hostility of Tar-Atanamir and his court toward the Eldar is otherwise almost inexplicable; hence “the shadow” on Númenor. It wasn’t just Sauron’s evil will alone that drove these Men to denigrate the Elves, but a real sense of betrayal. Quite so.
The emissaries must have come around SA 2029 - the year when Tar-Ciryatan ceded the Scepter to Tar-Atanamir (UT), because Akallabeth tells us that "these things took place in the days of Tar-Ciryatan the Shipbuilder, and of Tar-Atanamir his son". As the conference couldn't have lasted for dozens of years, it should then be placed around 2029. It could be that Ciryatan, confronted by the Messengers, laid down the scepter to allow his more determined son to reply in his stead (mirroring the situation with Tar-Meneldur and Aldarion).
Anyway, by 2029, the future nazgul would have had their Rings for about 200-300 years and already had time to realize the existence of the Ruling Ring and Elves's betrayal. Likely Atanamir listened to them more readily than Ciryatan, if, of course, he was not one of them himself.

This quote about Ar-Pharazon not knowing about the Rings struck me hard when I first found it - I will never forget the impression. It opens a totally knew insight into the Nazgul question and makes us doubt whether the Eldar were indeed as noble as LOTR portrays them. :p
Especially Gil-Galad the Elven King of whom the harpers sadly sing.... Yeah. Well, at least he had an occasion to repent before he died. Still "where he dwelleth none can say..." maybe still in Mandos along with Feanor and K. Elrond was also guilty as hell - after all, he was close kin to Numenoreans... :(

I had an idea a while back that I hoped would provide some evidence that the economies in Middle Earth were more advanced than might otherwise be thought. I think I will start a new thread based on this idea within the next week or so. Given your knowledge concerning these kinds of matters in the real world, Alcuin, I hope you will find the time to comment on it. Gordis, of course you surely know that I am always looking for your input. Go ahead, CAB - it sounds very interesting.:)

[Alcuin]

I don't think you have to reconsider. There is one clear statement about it in a draft of LotR:…The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible.Oh, good. It is a comfort not to be mistaken at all points. And thank you: I thought I had read that someplace, but I could never remember where. (I don't look through the drafts very often.)

Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar.Unquestionably. I think Sauron underestimated them, though, and still believed his principal threat was Gil-galad, which to a great extent was probably true: after all, Sauron had seen only one sea-borne invasion, the War of Wrath, and probably figured it was a one-time event. Besides, Númenor was most of the way to Eldamar – several weeks by ship – and out of sight is out of mind.

Then, it may be just my impression, but it seems the Numenoreans of note rarely sailed to ME between the times of Aldarion and Ciryatan.Sailing to Middle-earth was an expensive and momentous undertaking. At first, and before there was a regular industrial complex to support it, a passage to Middle-earth required years of preparation, probably a crew of at least 20–40 men. As a reference, the Niña had a crew of 24, the Pinta of 26, and the Santa MarÃ*a had 40 crewmen. The distance to Númenor was similar to that of a voyage across the Atlantic. Only wealthy Númenóreans could set out before II 1200, when the Dúnedain began making permanent settlements, first at Vinyalondë (Lond Daer). One of the big draws in voyaging to Middle-earth for the average Númenórean yeoman farmer, fisherman, or forester was the wealth that he could bring home with him. Only after many hundred years of voyaging and building could the Númenóreans travel across the Great Sea as they pleased.

It could be that Ciryatan, confronted by the Messengers, laid down the scepter to allow his more determined son to reply in his steadTar-Minastir, who led the Númenórean expeditionary force to help Gil-galad, gave up his scepter unwillingly. The entry for Tar-Ciryatan in Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor�, reads,
[Tar-Ciryatan] constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) might the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Númenor be seen.The word “constrained� is very strong. In Silmarillion, Morgoth is “constrained� to remain within the city of the Valar while on parole from Mandos and his binding in the chain Angainor (Silmarillion, “Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor�); and Morgoth’s epithet “Bauglir� means “the Constrainer� (index to Silmarillion). As we know, it means “to force by imposed stricture… or produce in an unnatural or strained manner� (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Constrain). Tar-Atanamir then took the scepter from his father, whom Tolkien does not say was “contrained,� and early in his reign, as you have noted, the emissaries from Valinor arrived.

Ciryatan left life of his own free will, as Númenóreans were permitted to do, and as Aragorn did; I think that means that, whatever his faults, he had not completely rebelled against the Valar. Atanamir was in open rebellion. And I might add, that rebellion was in fact a rebellion against Eru, as I believe the Faithful maintained.

This brings up an interesting point, though. Tar-Ciryatan kicked his father off the throne in II 1869. The “shadow falls upon Númenor� about II 1800. I think it is worth considering whether Tar-Minastir, enemy of Sauron and ally of the Eldar, smelled a rat or two in his court. I wonder if he might have been about to banish – or even unmask – a Ring-bearing Dúnadan or two in his court? I don’t think we could ever prove that, but the timing and situation seem interesting.

It makes sense that the three Dúnedain with Rings of Power had risen to prominence in Númenórean society by then. Their malign influence was felt everywhere, and I think it stands to reason that they instigated both Tar-Ciryatan’s coup against his father and Tar-Atanamir’s apostasy.

[Willow Oran]

Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar. They would tell about him in Numenor, and there were still a lot of Elves from Tol-Eressea visiting the Island. The news of the Maia Aulendil could easily travel to Valinor itself, maybe even to Aule, and what is worse, the reply could travel back the same way: the next visitor could bring a warning against him.

Actually, that sort of scenario would help to explain Glorfindel very nicely.

[Gordis]

Actually, that sort of scenario would help to explain Glorfindel very nicely. Indeed. But he came too late to save the Mirdain.
Here is, as far as I know, the last version of Glorfindel's history:
We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Numenor, and while the Numenoreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil- galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200, when Sauron came in person to Lindon, and attempted to deceive Gil-galad, but was rejected and dismissed. But it may have been, perhaps more probably, as late as c.1600, the Year of Dread, when Barad-dur was completed and the One Ring forged, and Celebrimbor at last became aware of the trap into which he had fallen. For in 1200, though he was filled with anxiety, Gil-galad still felt strong and able to treat Sauron with contempt. Also at that time his Numenorean allies were beginning to make strong permanent havens for their great ships, and also many of them had actually begun to dwell there permanently. In 1600 it became clear to all the leaders of Elves and Men (and Dwarves) that war was inevitable against Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord. They therefore began to prepare for his assault; and no doubt urgent messages and prayers asking for help were received in Numenor (and in Valinor).= Peoples of ME


Sailing to Middle-earth was an expensive and momentous undertaking. At first, and before there was a regular industrial complex to support it, a passage to Middle-earth required years of preparation, probably a crew of at least 20–40 men. As a reference, the Niña had a crew of 24, the Pinta of 26, and the Santa MarÃ*a had 40 crewmen. The distance to Númenor was similar to that of a voyage across the Atlantic. Only wealthy Númenóreans could set out before II 1200, when the Dúnedain began making permanent settlements, first at Vinyalondë (Lond Daer). One of the big draws in voyaging to Middle-earth for the average Númenórean yeoman farmer, fisherman, or forester was the wealth that he could bring home with him. Only after many hundred years of voyaging and building could the Númenóreans travel across the Great Sea as they pleased. Thank you for reminding me of the date 1200 for the first permanent settlements (Tale of Years). I had forgotten about it - so some of my previous reasoning may be wrong. It seems only Tar-Ancalime neglected ME, but her successors Tar-Anarion, Tar-Surion and Tar-Telperien might have shown a mild interest in it. Nothing comparable to the later expansion, which has happened after the War. In a way, Sauron brought it upon himself.;)

Tar-Minastir, who led the Númenórean expeditionary force to help Gil-galad, gave up his scepter unwillingly.
I strongly believe Minastir himself stayed at home. It is told that he "sent" the fleet both in the TY and UT. Then he was not an adventurous guy, but more a dreamer.
The entry for Tar-Ciryatan in Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor”, reads,The word “constrained” is very strong. In Silmarillion, Morgoth is “constrained” to remain within the city of the Valar while on parole from Mandos and his binding in the chain Angainor (Silmarillion, “Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor”); and Morgoth’s epithet “Bauglir” means “the Constrainer” (index to Silmarillion). As we know, it means “to force by imposed stricture… or produce in an unnatural or strained manner” (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Constrain). Tar-Atanamir then took the scepter from his father, whom Tolkien does not say was “contrained,” and early in his reign, as you have noted, the emissaries from Valinor arrived. It is clear that Tar-Minastir had very bad relations with his son, and likely with his grandson as well (Atanamir was already 69 in 1869 - a grown man who likely helped his dad to "constrain" Minastir). I am not sure what this disaccord was about: about budget allocation for the fleet, or more about faith and the Eldar. Anyway, there was a coup, and Minastir lost his scepter.
Most likely, Ciryatan took part in the War (btw, perhaps he was known as Ciryatur then?), he built and captained fleets, exploited ME, helped people to enrich themselves. So he must have been very popular in Numenor and had a lot of followers (old comrades-in-arms, sailors, workers of shipyards etc.), while Minastir, who spent his days locked in a tower gazing West, must have had none to defend him.

Ciryatan and Atanamir seem to be of like mind in all matters (both were "proud and greedy of wealth", UT), only the latter went further in everything, including apostasy. Ciryatan was "mighty", but Atanamir became "Great". I guess Ciryatan indeed left his scepter to Atanamir willingly, as he saw in him worthy progeny and successor. The interesting thing is that the transfer of the Scepter must have coincided with the arrival of the Ambassy from Valinor. There might be something in it.

Ciryatan left life of his own free will, as Númenóreans were permitted to do, and as Aragorn did; I think that means that, whatever his faults, he had not completely rebelled against the Valar. Atanamir was in open rebellion. And I might add, that rebellion was in fact a rebellion against Eru, as I believe the Faithful maintained. I agree. But even Atanamir was not yet in open rebellion against Eru. They continued to give their children Quenya names, use Sindarin, tend to the White Tree, ascend Meneltarma trice a year to pray to Eru. But Atanamir spoke against the Ban and declared his right to immortality.

This brings up an interesting point, though. Tar-Ciryatan kicked his father off the throne in II 1869. The “shadow falls upon Númenor” about II 1800. I think it is worth considering whether Tar-Minastir, enemy of Sauron and ally of the Eldar, smelled a rat or two in his court. I wonder if he might have been about to banish – or even unmask – a Ring-bearing Dúnadan or two in his court? I don’t think we could ever prove that, but the timing and situation seem interesting. You know what, Alcuin, the more I think on it, the more it seems likely that the "rats" Minastir smelled were his own son and grandson. :eek:

And here, Alcuin, I come to the main problem I have with your theory. In your theory, Ciryatan and Atanamir were constantly "influenced" to do this and "persuaded" to do that by the future nazgul, all the while being kept in the dark about the reason for all of it, the Rings. Yet, neither of these two kings strikes me as a person easily influenced, or easily duped. They were proud, arrogant and greedy with little moral inhibitions, born to rule and enjoying it immensely, yet highly intelligent and perceptive, able to see into the hearts of Men.

You agree that their minds became poisoned against the Elves, yet the Ring-wielders who allegedly persuaded them, couldn't possibly tell them of the Elves's betrayal: it would mean to disclose the Rings. And once someone like Atanamir learns or even suspects that one of his followers has a Ring of Power giving immortality, he would kill to obtain it, he would do anything to obtain it.

And look at it from Sauron's POV. No question it would have been in his interests to ensnare the King of Numenor himself. He managed to make a gift of a Ring to one of the princes of the Royal house, you say. Couldn't he tell him "And here is another one, a gift for your King. Please deliver it with my compliments". Would a future nazgul refuse? Would the King refuse, especially if he sees the beneficial effects a similar ring has on his kinsman?

I guess either Ciryatan or Atanamir had joined the merry fellowship of the Nine.

[Willow Oran]

Indeed. But he came too late to save the Mirdain.

Unless he returned in SA1200. Tolkien leaves quite a large window there. I usually go with SA1600 though, as I'm guessing you do also and his being too late to be more than another soldier (although a very good one)is one of the problems with his history. That off-hand comment about word of Annatar possibly getting back to the Valar opens the possibility of Glorfindel being specifically intended to counter whatever corruption of people's spirits Annatar was coming up with instead of being the general miltary help that he's usually assumed to be.

[Alcuin]

I guess either Ciryatan or Atanamir had joined the merry fellowship of the Nine.

It isn’t possible. Tolkien says that the Númenóreans embalmed their dead as did the Egyptians. The kings of Númenor were buried in Noirinan, the Valley of the Tombs, between the southwestern and southeastern spurs of Meneltarma.

Suppose for a moment that you were correct, and Ciryatan and Atanamir had become Nazgûl. No one noticed that they didn’t age normally? How then do you explain that Ciryatan gave up his scepter and then died a few years later? How do you explain that Atanamir refused to retire, became “unmanned� (suffered dementia, an all-too-common affliction of extreme old age), and died “perforce� (i.e., by force of nature)?

Moreover, “embalmed� like an Egyptian means that the internal organs were removed. The Egyptians also poured pitch into cadavers and cured the hollowed bodies for 60 days covered in natron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natron) (sodium carbonate decahydrate, Na2CO3•10H2O, or soda ash), a powerful dessicant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiccant) (a chemical that soaks up water). Lots of people are involved in this process: it’s labor-intensive and time-consuming, and whatever the ancient Egyptians believed, there isn’t much left of the body at the end except the shell.

Everyone would notice if Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir were not properly gutted and salted like so much dried fish and buried with lots of pomp and circumstance. All the courtiers, family members, hangers-on, soldiers, sages, and – most importantly – the emerging opposition party of the Faithful would have noticed if the kings had not aged normally.

Finally, which of Nazgûl do you suppose to be so humble, so self-effacing as to give up his throne, surrender his scepter to another? That’s not a characteristic of a man with magically-enhanced charisma, intelligence, strength, and stamina – not to mention a magically-enhanced ego. It doesn’t make any sense. If a Nazgûl or proto-Nazgûl had control of the throne of Númenor, he wouldn’t give it up!

Besides if this were the case, instead of saying that Tar-Ciryatan gave up his scepter, died, and was buried, but Tar-Atanamir clung to life until he lost himself and fell from his throne “unmanned,� don’t you think Tolkien would have made some kind of comment about it?

Be reasonable. It’s not like this would be a niggling little item in the tales, is it?

-|-

I strongly believe Minastir himself stayed at home. It is told that he "sent" the fleet both in the TY and UT. Then he was not a sort of adventurous guy, but more of a dreamer.
I disagree. Tar-Minastir is always credited with sending the fleet to Middle-earth and the victory over Sauron. But his aunt, the unmarried second Ruling Queen, Tar-Telperiën, was on the throne until II 1731, three decades after the war was over. I think a solid explanation for this is that Telperiën, who seems to have been rather wise (I think she avoided marriage because of the disastrous experience of vengeful and petty Tar-Ancalimë, in whose miserable household her father, grandfather, and her unhappy aunts – whom Ancalimë refused to allow to marry – had all grown up), decided that her vigorous nephew was better suited to lead the effort than she.

There is a parallel in Gondor. Narmacil I and Calmacil of Gondor, the sons of Atanatar II Alcarin, ruled one after another as king of Gondor: Narmacil had no issue, so Calmacil succeeded him. Both used Calmacil’s son Minalcar as regent. Minalcar was an extremely vigorous and effective regent, and upon his succession, he took the throne-name Rómendacil II.

As Regent of Gondor, Minalcar Rómendacil was known as the Karma-kundo (“Guardian of the Helm�). And since the Kings of Númenor refused to surrender their scepters or give up their lives, several of them must have suffered the same fate of dementia as Atanamir: this was probably a well-established office by the days of Minalcar. Ancalimon almost certainly had to perform this duty for his father, Tar-Atanamir, when he reached his dotage. The entry for his son, Telemmaitë, in the “Line of Elros� in Unfinished Tales says that

Hereafter the Kings ruled in name from the death of their father to their own death, though the actual power passed often to their sons or counselors; and the days the descendants of Elros waned under the Shadow.



I think that the context of the story strongly suggests that Minastir was either ruled jointly with his aunt or, more likely, as regent in change of the expedition to Middle-earth. The Númenóreans had never attempted anything like it: it required specialized knowledge, a thorough grasp of logistics, and considerable military skill. It would have been on the order of the Invasion of Normandy – launched from New York! It was a full-time job, and whomever was in charge would effectively be acting as a king or viceroy – or regent. The evidence strongly argues that Minastir was given plenipotentiary powers in this effort, but his aunt retained her power, and probably her veto if he got out of line.

Minastir was responsible for the expedition in II 1700. Tar-Telperiën gave up her throne and died in II 1731. Now, what would little Númenórean school-children learn during the reign of Tar-Minastir, that Tar-Telperiën was responsible for the expedition, or that Tar-Minastir was?

And in comparison to having a Ringwraith - or two - for a king, whether Minastir led the expedition to Middle-earth or just its massive preparations (like the American General George C Marshall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Marshall), who led and coordinated the American war effort in World War II for all theaters in which we participated, but was never allowed to leave Washington) as king, regent, co-ruler, or just the Queen’s Nephew and Heir, is a niggling point.

[Gordis]

First let us deal with minor points.

I disagree. Tar-Minastir is always credited with sending the fleet to Middle-earth and the victory over Sauron. But his aunt, the unmarried second Ruling Queen, Tar-Telperiën, was on the throne until II 1731, three decades after the war was over. I think a solid explanation for this is that Telperiën, who seems to have been rather wise (I think she avoided marriage because of the disastrous experience of vengeful and petty Tar-Ancalimë, in whose miserable household her father, grandfather, and her unhappy aunts – whom Ancalimë refused to allow to marry – had all grown up), decided that her vigorous nephew was better suited to lead the effort than she.
Minastir - vigorous? :rolleyes: I call Minastir "dreamer" because he was one. Here is what is written about him:
Tar-Minastir. This name he had because he built a high tower upon the hill of Oromet, nigh to Andúnië and the west shores, and thence would spend great part of his days gazing westward. For the yearning was grown strong in the hearts of the Númenóreans. He loved the Eldar but envied them. He it was who sent a great fleet to the aid of Gil-galad in the first war against Sauron. He was born in the year 1474, and ruled for 138 years; he surrendered the sceptre in 1869, and died in 1873. - UT, Line of Elros In all his life he did but one useful thing. One day his aunt Queen Telperien, likely dragged him out of his tower and explained that if he wished to be King one day, he should better do some work, like prepare this fleet for ME. Which he did - and later took all the credit for it. Perhaps he was even enthusiastic about promoting the expedition, destined to help his beloved Eldar. But he didn't sail with the fleet, didn't fight and it is told nowhere that he ever visited ME. Nobody said he liked ships or the Sea - only his beloved Elves. The contempt his son Cityatan had for him was largely due to his favorite occupation - gazing West. I doubt he could have been a strong King with such tastes. And then he lost his throne in a coup.:p

There is a parallel in Gondor. Narmacil I and Calmacil of Gondor, the sons of Atanatar II Alcarin, ruled one after another as king of Gondor: Narmacil had no issue, so Calmacil succeeded him. Both used Calmacil’s son Minalcar as regent. Minalcar was an extremely vigorous and effective regent, and upon his succession, he took the throne-name Rómendacil II. Yes -and later he has become as vigorous and effective King as he used to be Regent. No time spent gazing West, but a lot of time spent conquering Rhovanion, pacifying the Northmen, trying to appease the coastal provinces and building the Argonath statues. Romendacil had a personality entirely different from Tar-Minastir, though both may have been regents.

And there is another explanation possible: namely that at the time of writing of LOTR appendices, Telperien was supposed to surrender the Scepter earlier - and Minastir was supposed to be already King in 1697. Then Minastir would only be responsible for the decision to help Gil-galad (quite natural for him) and automatically would take credit for the preparation of the fleet, even if all the actual work was done by underlings.

[Gordis]

I also dislike the correction he made in the TY in the entry about Tar-Atanamir and Tar Ancalimon - What if his father had made this "mistake" on purpose? If you think you see a mistake, make a footnote, but leave the text as JRRT left it!

'Is there anything necessarily problematic here with the TYs as published? I must admit I have not looked closely at this particular issue myself (yet).'


Well, you see in my edition of the Tale of Years the entry for 2251 is:
2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

In UT the Line of Elros the entry for Atanamir reads:
XIII Tar-Atanamir the Great
He was born in the year 1800, and ruled for 192 years, until 2221, which was the year of his death. [...]Atanamir is called also the Unwilling, for he was the first of the Kings to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce the sceptre; and he lived until death took him perforce in dotage.

The note No 10 reads:
In the Tale of Years (Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings) occurs the entry: "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenóreans begins." This is altogether discrepant with the present text, according to which Tar-Atanamir died in 2221. This date 2221 is, however, itself an emendation from 2251; and his death is given elsewhere as 2251. Thus the same year appears in different texts as both the date of his accession and the date of his death; and the whole structure of the chronology shows clearly that the former must be wrong. Moreover, in the Akallabêth (The Silmarillion p. 266) it is said that it was in the time of Atanamir's son Ancalimon that the people of Númenor became divided. I have little doubt therefore that the entry in the Tale of Yeas is in error for a correct reading: "2251 Death of Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenóreans begins." But if so, it remains strange that the date of Atanamir's death should have been altered in "The Line of Elros" if it were fixed by an entry in the Tale of Years.

Now, as far as I understand though I don't remember where I read it, in the most recent printings of LOTR this entry in the TY is corrected as Christopher suggested. If you could find more about it it would be great.

Why is it important? Because original entry in TY makes either Tar-Minastir or Tar-Ciryatan a nazgul.;)
Look here: in 1700 king Tar-Minastir sends the fleet to ME. In 2251 (551 years later) his son Ciryatan surrenders the scepter to Atanamir. Someone here has lived too long!
Was it intended, or was it a mistake? Maybe it was, but is it enough to correct the canonic text?

[Galin]

(...) Why is it important? Because original entry in TY makes either Tar-Minastir or Tar-Ciryatan a nazgul. ;)

Look here: in 1700 king Tar-Minastir sends the fleet to ME. In 2251 (551 years later) his son Ciryatan surrenders the scepter to Atanamir. Someone here has lived too long! Was it intended, or was it a mistake? Maybe it was, but is it enough to correct the canonic text?

Is it certain that someone has lived too long according to Tolkien-published description? If I may, putting aside the Nazgul theory for a moment, take for example the birth of Silmarien in 548 (Appendix B), and we can note too that she was the 'elder child' of Tar-Elendil (Appendix A).

Thus she was not born in 521 (UT) nor was Tar-Meneldur born in 543 (UT). However, can The Line of Elros be altered somewhat to fit the published Lord of the Rings, and still work?

In what time I have had, I've done a little work, but I have not brought the revisions all the way through the line of Kings yet, and I would be interested to see how you, or anyone else, would go about such a project. The framework to build around is Tolkien-published text. Departure from Unfinished Tales or other unpublished description is allowed of course, and necessary in part, but (for example) where I could I retained details, like altering Tar-Meneldur's birth by 22 years (based on UT) but working with the Appendix in Return of the King for the date.

I generally tried to work within, or close to, the guidelines set out by The Line of Elros (or LE) for example.

[Gordis]

Well it sounds most interesting, Galin! Could you perhaps share your time-scheme when it is ready?

I wholly agree: App. A should take precedence over LE. After all, Tolkien COULD revise the LOTR text for the second edition if he so wished, but he didn't.
A published text should take precedence anyway.

As for UT the Line of Elros, the important thing is the dating and how sure it is. Was it written before or after the App. A?
I have seen some lists dating it as late as 1968, IIRC.

What seems curious about this text, is its train-timetable-like appearance: too neat, every early King living almost exactly 400 years, no accidents, no premature deaths. The age difference between siblings is always very close to 10-12 years. See here Line of Elros UT (http://www.tuckborough.net/images/numenor-tree.gif)

It just doesn't happen in real life.

[Alcuin]

If I failed to comprehend the thrust of this, then I apologize; but I must disagree. I spent over a year working on my essay Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm). In one of the footnotes is a model similar to the one that to Tolkien almost certainly used (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Estimating%20Kings.htm): I believe there’s probably a sketch-graph someplace in his notes that he used to estimate the dates of the births and deaths of the kings. The model fits far too well for coincidence: the biggest deviation in the births and deaths of the Kings of Númenor from the straight-line laid out in the essay is –8% for the death of Tar-Elendil, and after that, there is not a single deviation that’s even two-and-a-half percent. The evidence is overwhelming that there are no missing kings in “The Line of Elros�, and the omission of Tar-Ardamir was just that: an omission, an error, as CJR Tolkien describes in footnote 11.

But besides that, Think: if one of the Kings of Númenor had become a Ringwraith, he would never have surrendered throne!

The three Númenóreans with Rings of Power probably came back to Númenor sometime during the reign of Tar-Minastir. During the days of Tar-Ciryatan, and possibly early in the reign of Tar-Atanamir, they poisoned the society of the Dúnedain with lies and disbelief about the purposes of Men in Arda, and then they went back to Middle-earth. Their activities are the fall of the shadow upon Númenor.

Finally, a king does not live in privacy. He is surrounded by family, courtiers, retainers, and subjects. These guys died, and when they died, they were embalmed and buried in state funerals. It is not conceivable that the Dúnedain would have failed to notice if the king didn’t age, the king didn’t die, or the king wasn’t buried.

I don’t think there is any question that the Witch-king was a member of the House of Elros (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm). Whomever he was, he wanted to be king, and he wanted it so much that he wrecked Arnor and almost destroyed Gondor, too. He sowed the seeds of Númenor’s Downfall, he probably cozened Tar-Ciryatan into deposing his father, and he was almost certainly the person who inspired Tar-Atanamir’s disbelief and rebellion against Eru. But there is just simply no evidence in the texts that the Lord of the Nazgûl was or ever had been a King of Númenor.

[Gordis]

If I failed to comprehend the thrust of this, then I apologize; but I must disagree. I spent over a year working on my essay Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm). In one of the footnotes is a model similar to the one that to Tolkien almost certainly used (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Estimating%20Kings.htm): I believe there’s probably a sketch-graph someplace in his notes that he used to estimate the dates of the births and deaths of the kings. The model fits far too well for coincidence: the biggest deviation in the births and deaths of the Kings of Númenor from the straight-line laid out in the essay is –8% for the death of Tar-Elendil, and after that, there is not a single deviation that’s even two-and-a-half percent. The evidence is overwhelming that there are no missing kings in “The Line of Elros�, and the omission of Tar-Ardamir was just that: an omission, an error, as CJR Tolkien describes in footnote 11.
This is what I was saying, Alcuin. "The line of Elros" in UT is like a lunar calendar or a train timetable: without any deviations from the straight line. It is visible from the onset, but you have proven it scientifically. Nothing ever happened to Numenorean kings if we believe that text: no one drowned, no one got poisoned. They even made children regularly: one in a dozen years.;)

As for the rest, I promise to reply, when I have time to think on the Kings more. :)

And, as far as I understand, Galin is expressly studying the differences between TY and LE. I would love to see his work!

[Alcuin]

This is what I was saying, Alcuin. "The line of Elros" in UT is like a lunar calendar or a train timetable: without any deviations from the straight line. It is visible from the onset, but you have proven it scientifically. Nothing ever happened to Numenorean kings if we believe that text: no one drowned, no one got poisoned. They even made children regularly: one in a dozen years.;)

As for the rest, I promise to reply, when I have time to think on the Kings more. :)

And, as far as I understand, Galin is expressly studying the differences between TY and LE. I would love to see his work!
Sorry. Apologies to you and Galin. :o

[Galin]

Well it sounds most interesting, Galin! Could you perhaps share your time-scheme when it is ready?

Maybe; and I was also hoping someone else would try in the meantime, just to compare. That's an invite, though I realize time is a factor for people, especially as my final version might take a while (if it ever gets finished!).

As for UT the Line of Elros, the important thing is the dating and how sure it is. Was it written before or after the App. A? I have seen some lists dating it as late as 1968, IIRC.

Hammond and Scull date it 'probably 1960' with many emendations made to the manuscript.

What seems curious about this text, is its train-timetable-like appearance: too neat, every early King living almost exactly 400 years, no accidents, no premature deaths.

I have had to indulge in some 'fluctuations' (by comparison to LE) but I don't expect anyone to put my mutterings above a single word written by the Master.

No problem Alcuin -- I'm off topic (as often enough) so I'm probably confusing this thread actually.

[Alcuin]

No problem Alcuin -- I'm off topic (as often enough) so I'm probably confusing this thread actually.Thank you. <bows in dwarf-fashion>

I commend to you footnotes 11 and 10 from “The Line of Elros�, particularly footnote 11, which quotes an otherwise unpublished letter from 1964 in which Tolkien says he thinks he left out one of the kings but cannot find his notes to be sure.

As for the straight-line nature of the births and deaths, I think that has a simple explanation: Tolkien had to reduce the lifespans of the kings from 400 years to 200 years. He could accomplish that by doing algebra, but it is much simpler to sketch a graph of it, and either read the numbers directly off the graph, or raise and lower them a little to simulate natural variation. (I think he did the latter.) Once he did it, he was basically finished with that part, and would likely do little more than tinker with a king or two here and there. I did it both ways: the graphical method, which I did second, requires only a few minutes, while the algebraic method takes a lot more time and ultimately requires that you construct a graph to check it.

Tolkien was a very capable mathematician, calculating and comparing the error in seconds in the Númenórean calendar and in the Gregorian calendar. That is a very tedious calculation, and he did it completely by hand and rather well, or so I understand.

[Galin]

I commend to you footnotes 11 and 10 from “The Line of Elros�, particularly footnote 11, which quotes an otherwise unpublished letter from 1964 in which Tolkien says he thinks he left out one of the kings but cannot find his notes to be sure.

Yes, the notes are helpful in tracking down the variances. And on Tar-Atanamir (LE note 10), there is also note 19 from The Tale of Years (Second Age) in Peoples of Middle-Earth, for example.

But of course the exercise is to use what the Appendices reveal about this King, not the 'unpublished' Line of Elros, and to work with the Rulers listed in The Return of the King (so far I've been using LE as a guide).

[Olmer]

No matter how you will look at it, the corrections, which Tolkien deliberately made in his "time-table", are pointing on one thing: in his revision Tolkien MENT to fit the Witch-King as the one of ruling Numenorians.
And I still stand by Tar-Cyriatan, since Tolkien revised his lifespan to be twice longer, than any other kings. We know that he was very scrupulous in constructing the history of Arda, trying to fit all pieces in the rightful places. What for he did such correction, if not for making a room for a mighty Nazgul?

[Alcuin]

No matter how you will look at it, the corrections, which Tolkien deliberately made in his "time-table", are pointing on one thing: in his revision Tolkien MENT to fit the Witch-King as the one of ruling Numenorians.
And I still stand by Tar-Cyriatan, since Tolkien revised his lifespan to be twice longer, than any other kings. We know that he was very scrupulous in constructing the history of Arda, trying to fit all pieces in the rightful places. What for he did such correction, if not for making a room for a mighty Nazgul?

Hm.. Intresting, as any other theories. But where does it say .... Quote, please.:evil:

Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros�XII Tar-Ciryatan
He was born in the year 1634, amd ruled for 160 years’; he surrendered the scepter in 2029, and died in 2035. ...


a king does not live in privacy. He is surrounded by family, courtiers, retainers, and subjects. These guys died, and when they died, they were embalmed and buried in state funerals. It is not conceivable that the Dúnedain would have failed to notice if the king didn’t age, the king didn’t die, or the king wasn’t buried.The Dúnedain would have to be dumber than a box of rocks to miss a king becoming a Ringwraith. They might not know the cause, but they could not miss the symptoms.

It’s a fun idea, and maybe you’re just pulling my too-serious chain to tease me; but where are your citations? Footnote 11 to “The Line of Elros� reads in part,

…at a later point in Appendix A, Ar-Adûnakhôr is called the twentieth king; and in 1964 my father replied to a correspondent who had inquired about this: “As the genealogy stands he should be called the sixteenth king and nineteenth ruler. Nineteen should probably be read for twenty; but it is also possible that a name has been left out.� He explained that he could not be certain because at the time of writing this letter his papers on the subject were not available to him.

Over the course of writing the history of Númenor, Tolkien doubled the number of kings.

Typos remained in Appendix A until the 1998 edition, at least. My copy reads at one point.Arahael his son was fostered in to Rivendell…I wrote a letter to Houghton Mifflin listing the numerous typos and errors I found in my edition, and they replied that they knew of them: many other readers had already written them. I do believe I recall that the Appendices had a number of errors of which they were aware that had never been corrected. The letter is from many years ago, but I’ll see if I can find it: it might be of interest. (I won’t stop everything else to look, though.) I don’t think Appendix A was altered much after publication: there was too much other work to do on Silmarillion and the main body of the text.

You know I respect you, Olmer, but I must disagree with you on this in the strongest terms.

-|-

(Added later)

And I still stand by Tar-Cyriatan, since Tolkien revised his lifespan to be twice longer, than any other kings.Where did you find that? It isn’t in “The Line of Elros�, no years are given in “Appendix A� for the kings of Númenor, and he doesn’t appear in “The Tale of Years�.

[Olmer]

You know I respect you, Olmer, but I must disagree with you on this in the strongest terms.
It's all right. I have got used to an idea that many mooters are stoutly in disagreement with my theories.:evil: It's not standart, sometimes shocking, but all of them are based on the canon text.
Feel free to disagree with me and pull my theory apart, but I want to see quotes, supporting your arguments.:)
Where did you find that? It isn’t in “The Line of Elros�, no years are given in “Appendix A� for the kings of Númenor, and he doesn’t appear in “The Tale of Years�.
Oh. you saw it, all right.
http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=615359&postcount=64
If you still doubtful, do the math yourself. You are very good at it.:)
And then tell me, what for has Tolkien decided to correct the dates of just this two particular men with very distinctive from other kings characteristics?:evil:

The Dúnedain would have to be dumber than a box of rocks to miss a king becoming a Ringwraith. They might not know the cause, but they could not miss the symptoms.
Gordis already mentioned that becoming a Ringwraith has been a gradual process. Even for a such little creature, as Gollum, a half of millenium was not enough to make him a wraith, let alone Numenoreans.


Originally Posted by Olmer
Hm.. Intresting, as any other theories. But where does it say .... Quote, please.
This was from another theme.:cool:
I wanted to know where Tolkien said that Sauron in panic went on attacking Gondor.:evil:

[Galin]

Here's my basic approach (any comments are welcome).

After adjusting The Line of Elros (LE) for Silmarien (and thus Tar-Meneldur), I also adjusted so that Tar-Minastir is king by the time the great fleet arrives in Middle-earth (1700 as in App. B). A 'tough' part (again, using LE as a guide so as to try to keep close to the ideas within), is getting Tar-Atanamir to take the sceptre according to App. B, in 2251 (not dying in 2221 as in LE), and once those dates have been changed, moving back in line with the dates in LE by the time I get to Tar-Calmacil. I think I have done this with acceptable fluctuations, in part using the unknown details of Isilmo (LE) as a vehicle.

I then agree with Robert Foster concerning Tar-Calmacil's death in 2899 (I have no problem agreeing with Mr. Foster here), and move to Ar-Adûnakhôr next -- not to Tar-Ardamin who does not appear in the list in Appendix A. The lack of Tar-Ardamin in Return of the King could prove helpful here actually (I note that H&S have added this King in their edition of The Lord of the Rings. I will not here however).

There are other revisions, but so far the most variation appears to be between Tar-Súrion and Tar-Calmacil, meaning I am closer to LE both before and after this 'range of Rulers'. Tar-Minastir will seemingly be an echo of Elros in that he takes the throne early and has a long rule (but not as long as Elros of course, and Tar-Minastir still lives around 400 years). I think this is OK, as he loved the Eldar (though he envied them), took to gazing Westward, and of course sent aid to Gil-galad.

Again, after the adjustment allowing Tar-Atanamir to take the sceptre in 2251, I am adjusting the dates to fall back in accordance with the death date of Tar-Calmacil 2899. I'm still checking and adjusting these figures (math!) but I think it's possible, while accounting for the shortening life spans as well. Judging from links in this thread I think this project would better be in Alcuin's hands than mine (blatant invite!), and probably other hands as well.

On another related matter (note 11 LE): if H&S are correct on the dating of LE (I'm going to go with their date here), this means that the response in 1964 from Tolkien arguably came after he had written LE, and obviously after the Appendices. But I note Tolkien's reaction: 'As the genealogy stands he should be called the sixteenth king and nineteenth ruler. Nineteen should possibly be read for twenty; but it is also possible that a name has been left out'.

So the first reaction seems to be the list in Lord of the Rings is correct and the numbering 'twentieth' (also in App. A) is in error, then JRRT says maybe the list left someone out. Ok but this is in 1964 and LE was written in 1960, so yes it appears by comparison to LE that Tar-Ardamin is 'left out' -- however my question is, how does this work with respect to his absence back in 1955? In other words the published discrepancy appeared back in 1955 when LE hadn't been written yet, so what would Tolkien's response have been in, say 1958 for example? I think this is a bit hazy, and the error may have started out with writing 20th instead of 19th. In any case CJRT notes at the end of all this: 'It may be that a more complex textual situation underlies the passage than a mere error of omission.' referring to the description of the change in style of the royal names.

I agree; and I'm not sure I agree that Tar-Ardamin was truly the original error here, as he was perhaps invented in 1960 rather. Any reference to him earlier anywhere?

I think the discrepancy might be explained by Herucalmo (Tar-Anducal) rather, who could both be counted, or not 'counted.' Of course he appears in LE not Return of the King, but it could be said that he was counted but yet his name was not actually included in the list of kings, since he had withheld the rule from his own son and in a sense his son's rule began twenty years earlier. He would be the 17th, Tar-Alcarin 18th, Tar-Calmacil 19th (dies in 2899), and Ar-Adûnakhôr the 20th, but his name (Tar-Anducal) would 'not be written', as that is an act of accounting him a true ruler while his rule could be seen as rather a grey area by some.

I realize it might be argued that one either count him 'fully' or not at all, but in any case I think I can come up with a scheme that works without him, and I could simply live with 20th instead of 19th in The Return of the King.

Anyway, have I missed something, obvious or not, in all this? I would like to know before I move forward.

[Gordis]

Galin, I am more and more intrigued by what you do with LE. Actually, I tried to do the same - tweak the Line of Elros to fit the Tale of Years and App. A. It was indeed rather easy with earlier Kings, but much more difficult for Minastir - Ancalimon. My approach has been to preserve what is written in LE regarding each ruler: personality, achievements, family relationships, children, but to feel free to tweak the dates, as long as they correspond to LOTR

But first to your observations

After adjusting The Line of Elros (LE) for Silmarien (and thus Tar-Meneldur), I also adjusted so that Tar-Minastir is king by the time the great fleet arrives in Middle-earth (1700 as in App. B).
I feel you are absolutely right in that Minastir should be King by the time the great fleet arrives in Middle-earth. In fact he should be King for at least a decade before 1700. It is obvious the decision to send the fleet was his, and the preparation of the fleet would take at least five-seven years. Most likely the Elves applied for help in 1693 and the decision was made in 1693-4.

Some more arguments:
1.I have checked all the drafts in HOME 12, and in all of them Tar-Minastir is associated with sending the fleet to ME, regardless of the dating. I think we should preserve this link. See here the passage where the name of Minastir first emerged:
'Already in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King of Numenor, he had fortified the land of Mordor and had built there the Tower of Barad-dur"
The appearance here of Tar-Minastir the eleventh king is of course a further element in the enlarged history already encountered in $$24-6. So also in this paragraph the text of AB 'nor did he forget the aid that they [the Numenoreans] had rendered to Gil- galad of old' was changed in B 2 to 'the aid that Tar-Minastir had rendered. -HOME12

2.Also, please consider this. Minastir was known for 2 things (LE): he built a tower to gaze at Eressea and he sent the Great Fleet to ME and won the first great War in the history of Numenor. Now the Kings took their final names at the coronation, and these names usually reflected their greatest achievement (Romendacil, Hyarmendacil, Tarannon, Ciryatan, Aldarion). What do you think was Minastir's greatest achievement: the War or the Tower? The War, obviously. Yet he was called not "Romendacil" or "Endordacil" or Ciryatan, but "Minastir." Why? Because he took both the Scepter and his new name BEFORE the War, obviously.

So Tar-Minastir became King no later than 1694, IMO. What date give you, Galin?

A 'tough' part (again, using LE as a guide so as to try to keep close to the ideas within), is getting Tar-Atanamir to take the sceptre according to App. B, in 2251 (not dying in 2221 as in LE), and once those dates have been changed, moving back in line with the dates in LE by the time I get to Tar-Calmacil. I think I have done this with acceptable fluctuations, in part using the unknown details of Isilmo (LE) as a vehicle.
It is MOST intriguing.:) Can you reveal more: dates for Minastir, Ciryatan and Atanamir? ;) Here I have my nazgul,you see, so I am greatly interested as how this can be avoided.

I then agree with Robert Foster concerning Tar-Calmacil's death in 2899 (I have no problem agreeing with Mr. Foster here), and move to Ar-Adûnakhôr next -- not to Tar-Ardamin who does not appear in the list in Appendix A. The lack of Tar-Ardamin in Return of the King could prove helpful here actually (I note that H&S have added this King in their edition of The Lord of the Rings. I will not here however). I have not read Foster. What was his argument? In general, I have no problem in having one King less in the middle of the line, especially considering the later dates for Atanamir. The end of the list of Kings seems a bit too long.

There are other revisions, but so far the most variation appears to be between Tar-Súrion and Tar-Calmacil, meaning I am closer to LE both before and after this 'range of Rulers'. I think both Anarion and Surion should be born earlier than stated in LE.
According to one version of Aldarion an Erendis, Erendis (d. 985)was still alive when Ancalime fell in with Hallatan. Thus Anarion should be born 20 years before the time in LE: around 980, not 1003 For Surion, I have an argument about Ancalime prohibiting the marriage of Surion's sisters. They should have been noticeably older than 130 and 118 by the time Ancalime resigned the Scepter, otherwise they could have easily married after the old shrew's death.

Tar-Minastir will seemingly be an echo of Elros in that he takes the throne early and has a long rule (but not as long as Elros of course, and Tar-Minastir still lives around 400 years). I think this is OK, as he loved the Eldar (though he envied them), took to gazing Westward, and of course sent aid to Gil-galad.
With Tar-Minastir the Line of Elros has another problem: the date of his forced retirement (Ciryatan's coup that brought him down). It is dated 1969 and Minastir died… FOUR years later in 1973, being 399 years old. Now then… wasn't it high time to retire anyway? He must have been fast declining, falling into dotage. Decent kings retired full ten years prior to expected death, if not earlier..
Add to this the problem of Isilmo: what has happened to this guy, natural heir to Telperien? He may have refused the scepter, but then he would be accounted King for 1 year, like Vardamir. Died before his time? Do you keep 12 years between siblings?

Again, after the adjustment allowing Tar-Atanamir to take the sceptre in 2251, I am adjusting the dates to fall back in accordance with the death date of Tar-Calmacil 2899. I'm still checking and adjusting these figures (math!) but I think it's possible, while accounting for the shortening life spans as well. Judging from links in this thread I think this project would better be in Alcuin's hands than mine (blatant invite!), and probably other hands as well.
Alcuin's help would be invaluable indeed…

I have, however, made one graph absent from Alcuin's article - that is mapping the ages when the Kings got their first child. As you know, it is this value that is correlated with the length of rule of the next king, not the life span as such. If kings with the life span of 400 have children at 50, you can fit 20 kings in 1000 years, if the Kings have children at 200, then you can only fit 5 kings in the same 1000 years.
And this graph proved most interesting, I can say. I will post it below

I'm not sure I agree that Tar-Ardamin was truly the original error here, as he was perhaps invented in 1960 rather. Any reference to him earlier anywhere?
Not in HOME 12.

I think the discrepancy might be explained by Herucalmo (Tar-Anducal) rather, who could both be counted, or not 'counted.'
I think so - very likely.

Anyway, have I missed something, obvious or not, in all this? I would like to know before I move forward.
One more thing, about this infamous entry in TY for 2251:
2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.
It can't be a simple mistake, as Chris Tolkien thinks, it can't be simply changed to "Tar Ancalimon takes the scepter etc.".
The rebellion of Numenoreans against the Valar and division (Faithful vs. King's Men) had occurred in Tar-Atanamir's time, as evidenced both by "Akallabeth", by HOME 12 drafts and by LE. Moreover, in LE we read "Much is said of this King in the Annals, such as now survive the Downfall." And indeed in LOTR we can find some achievements of Atanamir's times, things that made him called "Great": "2280 Umbar is made into a great fortress of Númenor (TY)." "2350 Pelargir is built. It becomes the chief haven of the Faithful Númenoreans (TY). Now if Chris, basing on LE, wishes to move the reign of Atanamir forwards, he should also move the canonic dates for foundation of Pelargir and Umbar. Otherwise they would happen during the reign of the insignificant king Ancalimon, not in the reign of the Great king Atanamir.

[Galin]

Gordis after a quick read your comments look very helpful. Need a bit more time, but briefly for now...

So Tar-Minastir became King no later than 1694, IMO. What date give you, Galin?

I came up with 1698, but I like your reasoning. Working with other considerations I chose a birth date that made him around 80 years old when he took the sceptre -- relatively young (but considering Elros I thought this much was OK).

[Gordis]

Here is the graph for the Age of Kings at the time they got their first child. It is based solely on the Line of Elros (UT).

A pink dot shows the value for Elendil if we assume that his first daughter Silmarien was born in 548 (TY).

The dot for Anarion is calculated as:171-23=148. Here 173 is the age difference between Anarion and Surion. 23 is the assumed age difference between Surion and the eldest of his two sisters.

The dot for Telperien in fact refers to her brother Isilmo, who I assume was 12 years younger than his sister.

LE_First_Child (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/Gor-Dis/LE-FirstChild.jpg)

Thoughts?

[Galin]

(...) Can you reveal more: dates for Minastir, Ciryatan and Atanamir? ;) Here I have my nazgul, you see, so I am greatly interested as how this can be avoided.

OK. There may be some history here that doesn't fit as I haven't fine tuned it with respect to all of LE's statements or implications (and I would need to refresh my memory regarding other 'unpublished' texts before bringing them into the picture). This could be seen as a draft then, even assuming that there are no stoopid errors on my part and my largest fluctuations are acceptable enough (wraiths aside, I am open to other suggestions on how to deal with this part of the scheme especially).

As I needed to 'push around' a fair number of years I introduced some unusually late births with respect to Tar-S and Tar-M. If I recall correctly, one of the rulers had a child as late as 193 (in LE Tar-Elendil 'married late in life' and Tar-Meneldur was his 3rd child), but I went notably beyond this for Isilmo's birth, and Tar-C's as well (I gave Isilmo his son when he (Isilmo) was 198, keeping the birth of Tar-S at 1174, as in LE).

Despite that Tar-Telperien was 'long-lived' and etc (LE) I took 33 years off her life (!) to match dates for Tar-M, which takes 33 years off her rule as well. I didn't want to do this -- and on that note, the alterations I don't really like are having Isilmo born (for some reason) 100 years after Tar-T (which makes Tar-S 246 at the time, well over 193). And Tar-M has Tar-C at age 238, again well over 193.

Isilmo is basically a blank page with respect to a birth date, though one naturally wonders why a large gap between siblings occurs (and we don't have to make it exactly 100 of course). T-M is another story, but as you know we need some way to alter this so that everyone here lives to roughly 400 and Tar-Atanamir can still take the sceptre in 2251.

If Isilmo has Tar-M at age 198 I have Tar-M born in 1618. He takes the sceptre at age 80 in 1698 (though as I say I like your reasoning on this matter). T-M rules till 2017 and dies in 2021. When T-M is age 238 (the 2nd manipulation that exceeds 193) Tar-C is born in 1856. He rules from 2017 to 2251. Tar-A is born in 2011 (when Tar-C is 155), and is 240 years old when he takes the sceptre in 2251.

Essentially introducing a couple unexplained late births -- again unless I've made some obvious mistake (very possible!) that I haven't noticed -- this seems to get us to Tar-Atanamir and Appendix B. Then I start 'cutting back' to get back on track with LE.

I have not read Foster. What was his argument? In general, I have no problem in having one King less in the middle of the line, especially considering the later dates for Atanamir. The end of the list of Kings seems a bit too long.

I think he just assumed this date due to Ar-A taking the sceptre in 2899.

I think both Anarion and Surion should be born earlier than stated in LE. According to one version of Aldarion an Erendis, Erendis (d. 985)was still alive when Ancalime fell in with Hallatan. Thus Anarion should be born 20 years before the time in LE: around 980, not 1003 For Surion, I have an argument about Ancalime prohibiting the marriage of Surion's sisters. They should have been noticeably older than 130 and 118 by the time Ancalime resigned the Scepter, otherwise they could have easily married after the old shrew's death.

I kept their birth dates as in LE. I have not even checked Aldarion and Erendis myself yet. I would like to read the work again to get a better picture here, before I comment.

With Tar-Minastir the Line of Elros has another problem: the date of his forced retirement (Ciryatan's coup that brought him down). It is dated 1969 and Minastir died… FOUR years later in 1973, being 399 years old. Now then… wasn't it high time to retire anyway? He must have been fast declining, falling into dotage. Decent kings retired full ten years prior to expected death, if not earlier..

As we must change dates to try to account for published material, I'm not sure we should also fiddle with this part within LE itself, unless we have to for some reason, or a variant text is used.

Add to this the problem of Isilmo: what has happened to this guy, natural heir to Telperien? He may have refused the scepter, but then he would be accounted King for 1 year, like Vardamir. Died before his time? Do you keep 12 years between siblings?

I think it's good Isilmo is a relative unknown. In a sense, at least I am not changing his specific history when I have him born so many years after Tar-T for example. Of course my reason is external and may stick out compared to other details in LE, but with him we don't have to actually change written history when fixing a date.

And thanks for the graph. I'll give it a look.

[Alcuin]

I think the few weeks of respite I had to write in Tolkien forums are drawing rapidly to a close. It may be many weeks (or months) before I can revel here again.

Olmer, when you first posted your alternate time-line, I was frankly appalled. With all respect – and I do respect you and your opinions! (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=642460#post642460) – I think some very serious documentation is in order. Galin and Gordis, my reaction is the same to alternate datings of the lives of the kings.

On the one hand, we have what may be either a textual error in “Appendix A� and a very tenuous link based upon CJR Tolkien’s footnote comment that the “Line of Elros� differences may have “a more complex textual situation�. On the other hand, that might mean nothing than that there are several increasingly complicated versions that his father developed as he worked out the dates and ages, and that is exactly what I think happened: until he sketched out a rough graph and read the dates from the graph, I doubt that Tolkien was able to adequately date his Númenórean kings. That the kings in the “Line of Elros� have almost mechanical dates of birth and death suggests to me that this a laborious operation that Tolkien did not enjoy, and that he did it mainly to get the kings and the Second Age dates for them into proper order.

It is also very important to keep in mind the various “Drowning Of Anadûnê� texts in Sauron Defeated. At the beginning of the formation of the story of The Akallabêth, there were only 12 kings in the history of Númenor: Ar-Pharazôn was number 12. By the end of the telling, Ar-Pharazôn was number 24, and Tar-Atanamir, the first of the rebellious kings, was number 12. In between, Tolkien had to continually extend the list of kings to fit the story. It is inevitable that the chronology changed, too.

To make the argument that one of the kings of Númenor became a Nazgûl is doomed, in my opinion. The hurdles you have to overcome to accomplish this are too high and too many: if that’s what happened, then you must at least explain why Tolkien never mentions it; why a Nazgûl-king would not simply maintain his throne; how the Dúnedain never managed to notice it; and why the Faithful Númenóreans, who at first outnumbered the Kings’ Men, would not rebel once they realized some fiendish sorcerer was their king.

To argue that the text of “Line of Elros� is seriously misdated or in error, you have to fall back on the argument that “Appendix A� is the be-all and end-all of the line of the Númenórean kings when even Tolkien wrote to a correspondent that he thought he made an error and left one out. (Minor errors would seem to me a given, but how we could find them without access to the archived papers is problematic.) That Tolkien left out one king – about whom he probably knew very little other than the name in the mid-1950s – is by far the simplest explanation. To incorporate some other explanation, I think you have to justify it. You need to provide the citations, and you to be sure that what you’re citing isn’t overridden by a subsequently corrected version. For instance, if you’re citing a date from a document that references only 12 or 20 kings of Númenor, we need to know that. If the Second Age is about 2000 years long in that document rather than about 3000 years long in the text that you’re using, we should know that, too.

There are errors in The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien admitted in interviews that there remained some errors, although he did not enumerate any beyond a few grammatical mistakes that he found amusing. I pointed out what are at least potential dating errors in post 4 of “The Hunt for the Ring� (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=642745&postcount=4). That a name was inadvertently omitted from the list of Númenórean rulers in “Appendix A� seems to me an innocent enough mistake.

I can hear the heavy footfalls of the taskmasters of Núrnen. I have to get busy and fast, or I shall be severely beaten. I don’t know when I’ll be able to return again for in-depth discussion. (I hope to be able to keep up and make a few comments: we shall see.) But I ask – I suggest – I urge – that you bear in mind some principles Do as little violence to the text as possible. Solve issues with the fewest number of changes or emendations or additions as possible. If you make a discovery in the stories (like the discoveries we made in the thread “Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry at Bree?� (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=642583&postcount=85)) – and you will discover new relationships and new events as you dig – be sure that each of them is as completely documented as possible with citations and sound reasoning. Explain how what you’ve found solves problems in the body of Tolkien’s work, and not merely how it fits an agenda.

We are amateur Tolkien scholars. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do a really bang-up job, as good and at least in a few cases better than the explanations offered by the professionals who are doing this for a living.

Now my profession calls, and I have to answer. I must regretfully excuse myself for a while. I have had a wonderful time over the past several weeks, Entmoot is a great forum, and all of you have my utmost respect. And thank you for tolerating my circumlocutory posts. (Don’t grab a dictionary: it means, “TLDR�.)

PS – Gordis, that’s a very nice graph of the age of each of the rulers when his first child was born. I made a similar one when I was preparing my essay “Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans (http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htm)�, but I did not include it. Did you use “Line of Elros� data to construct it?

[Gordis]

I think the few weeks of respite I had to write in Tolkien forums are drawing rapidly to a close. It may be many weeks (or months) before I can revel here again.
That is very sad, Alcuin. You will be missed, no doubt. As for me, I also have salt mines waiting, so I still haven't had time to reply to your questions and post my nazgul theory, which is different from Olmer's. No, it is NOT YET posted.

Olmer, when you first posted your alternate time-line, I was frankly appalled. With all respect – and I do respect you and your opinions! – I think some very serious documentation is in order. Galin and Gordis, my reaction is the same to alternate datings of the lives of the kings.
No need to be appalled, Alcuin. We are checking possibilities, no more. Galin for instance has no nazgul in his time-schemes. He tries to fill in the gap between 1700 and 2251 assuming no Rings were involved. Olmer and I are thinking a ring was involved.;)

You realize, Alcuin, that alternate, conflicting datings of the lives of the Kings already exist in TY and LE. Moreover LE has its inner problems (like 1700 for Telperien, not Minastir, and the dates for founding of Pelargir and Umbar now dissociated with Atanamir). Which dates have to be corrected is a matter of debate and this debate is currently going on in this thread. I think it can only be for good as it uncovers some links we might have missed. I have not seen a similar thread anywhere and in friendly cooperation we might be able to get to something.

It is also very important to keep in mind the various “Drowning Of Anadûnê� texts in Sauron Defeated. At the beginning of the formation of the story of The Akallabêth, there were only 12 kings in the history of Númenor: Ar-Pharazôn was number 12. By the end of the telling, Ar-Pharazôn was number 24, and Tar-Atanamir, the first of the rebellious kings, was number 12. In between, Tolkien had to continually extend the list of kings to fit the story. It is inevitable that the chronology changed, too.
We sure will have to take the earlier texts into account and we are attempting to. Ar-Pharazon was at first especially manipulated into becoming number 13, an unlucky, ominous number. Now this position is held by Tar-Atanamir. I will be expanding on it, when I have time.

To make the argument that one of the kings of Númenor became a Nazgûl is doomed, in my opinion. The hurdles you have to overcome to accomplish this are too high and too many: if that’s what happened, then you must at least explain why Tolkien never mentions it; why a Nazgûl-king would not simply maintain his throne; how the Dúnedain never managed to notice it; and why the Faithful Númenóreans, who at first outnumbered the Kings’ Men, would not rebel once they realized some fiendish sorcerer was their king.
There is a lot to explain, no doubt. ;)
You know and I know that Tolkien never wrote such a story: neither a King-nazgul story nor a Prince-nazgul story. He might have been thinking on it sometime during the final stages of the writing of LOTR, and the timeline (TY) he published in the Third volume may have reflected those yet unformed ideas. Maybe they never existed, maybe they were later abandoned - but maybe not (as he did have an opportunity to correct all "mistakes" in 1964 as he did have the LE already written).

You see, Alcuin, (and I am on record here) your Prince-nazgul theory is the VERY BEST an outsider like you or I can make using what Tolkien legacy (TY and LE) we can base on. I can do NO BETTER using your approach. But an outsider is not permitted to tweak dates set by the Profesor, so this restriction considerably narrows the flight of imagination.
Now Tolkien himself had no such restrictions. He could use the Line of Elros to light his pipe and write a brand new one, if he felt like it. Not so with TY and LOTR App. A. Tolkien usually treated the published material as he would treat a historical source: trying to find explanations for the odd parts, but not tweaking them or declaring them wrong.

In fact we are trying to figure out what Tolkien himself could have possibly written without tweaking TY and App.A - if he felt like it. Which story would he prefer to write: Prince-nazgul or King-nazgul? We can only speculate and -yes, in this speculation we are overstepping our boundaries assuming the rights to edit dates in unpublished Tolkien texts. But we respect the published texts as Tolkien himself always did.

Sometimes, just sometimes, this approach gives good results. I once posted a thread about Tar-Miriel and Pharazon, trying to prove that the dates given in LE and the story in the Silm indicate that the marriage was likely a marriage of love, not forced one as told in the Akallabeth. Pharazon-Miriel love story (http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000733) Later I learned that Tolkien thought along the same lines, it seems, for he wrote down Pharazon-Miriel's love-story in "The History of the Akallabeth" in HoME 12. But without this proof, unknown to me at the time, my theory would have remained a weird hypothesis strongly contradicting the statement in Akallabeth.

To argue that the text of “Line of Elros� is seriously misdated or in error, you have to fall back on the argument that “Appendix A� is the be-all and end-all of the line of the Númenórean kings when even Tolkien wrote to a correspondent that he thought he made an error and left one out. (Minor errors would seem to me a given, but how we could find them without access to the archived papers is problematic.)
So, he has noted AN error and that was 19 kings instead of 20 (he forgot Ardamin). Do you think he really missed the fact that two kings (Minastir+ Ciryatan) ruled for 551+ years? How could he after having written the Line of Elros with the alternative timeline?

You need to provide the citations, and you to be sure that what you’re citing isn’t overridden by a subsequently corrected version. For instance, if you’re citing a date from a document that references only 12 or 20 kings of Númenor, we need to know that. If the Second Age is about 2000 years long in that document rather than about 3000 years long in the text that you’re using, we should know that, too.
I don't think there is much to be found in early versions. Before the completion of LOTR, Tolkien had an alternative identity for the WK- Chief of the order of wizards, Wizard-King. If ever some precursors of a new "Nazgul-as-King of Numenor" theory were introduced, it would be around the time when TY was being written.

There are errors in The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien admitted in interviews that there remained some errors, although he did not enumerate any beyond a few grammatical mistakes that he found amusing. I pointed out what are at least potential dating errors in post 4 of “The Hunt for the Ring�. That a name was inadvertently omitted from the list of Númenórean rulers in “Appendix A� seems to me an innocent enough mistakeThen perhaps he considered the date 2251 for Atanamir not an error?;)

But I ask – I suggest – I urge – that you bear in mind some principles
• Do as little violence to the text as possible.
• Solve issues with the fewest number of changes or emendations or additions as possible.
• If you make a discovery in the stories (like the discoveries we made in the thread “Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry at Bree?�) – and you will discover new relationships and new events as you dig – be sure that each of them is as completely documented as possible with citations and sound reasoning. Explain how what you’ve found solves problems in the body of Tolkien’s work, and not merely how it fits an agenda.
It is reasonable and wise. I am against tweaking the TEXT in any way, even the text of the LE. Only some dates - some that seem necessary.

[Gordis]

About my graph:http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/Gor-Dis/LE-FirstChild.jpg

PS – Gordis, that’s a very nice graph of the age of each of the rulers when his first child was born. I made a similar one when I was preparing my essay “Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans”, but I did not include it. Did you use “Line of Elros” data to construct it?
Thanks. I have used exclusively the Line of Elros for this graph- all the blue dots are from there. There is a single pink dot taken from the Tale of Years (birthdate of Silmarien in 548) that I have included to demonstrate the variance with the blue dot of LE (Silmarien born in 521).

We can see from the graph, that even if we include the pink dot instead of the blue one, this will not make Tar-Elendil too old at the birth of his first child. Anyway the children were ALWAYS born during THE FIRST HALF of the parents' life: before 200 for those living 400+, before 100 for those living 200+.

A curious thing about this graph is a straight declining line for the kings after Tar Atanamir as compared to complex zigzagging line for the kings before him.
I guess it was because Tolkien had more or less figured out the intricacies of the history up to this point, but then he got bored and took the later birth dates directly from the graph, even for such "interesting" kings as Ar-Adunakhor or Tar-Palantir. Thus I wouldn't expect to find any draft for the story of Adunakhor's life or Vanimelde's life, but very probably Tolkien had some interesting story about Tar-Elendil and why he had married so late composed at least in his head, if not on paper.

Another thing about this graph. Well, Numenor is in decline, at least morally. It reminds me of Faramir's words about Gondor: 'Death was ever present, because the Númenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anárion had no heir.
Now wouldn't we expect the same attitude vs. children in late darkened Numenor? Yet, it is clearly NOT there if you look at the graph. Every King hurries to marry and to get a heir almost first thing, well before they reach the middle of their lives. Very responsible guys! Personally I think it is a drawback of the LE list of Kings, one Tolkien was probably not aware of and one he would have corrected if ever he prepared LE for publication.

[Galin]

Alcuin, I hope you can return soon.

To argue that the text of “Line of Elros” is seriously misdated or in error, you have to fall back on the argument that “Appendix A” is the be-all and end-all of the line of the Númenórean kings...

Sorry to cut this mid-sentence, but first I'll just note again my previous statement with respect to trying to alter LE to fit with the Appendices, that: '... I don't expect anyone to put my mutterings above a single word written by the Master.'

I think you are correct from the perspective that Tolkien is free to keep working on his history in any way he sees fit; and he did. And The Line of Elros is a later text than the Appendices (again, later than the Appendices of 1955 at least). In this sense the published text isn't the be-all and end-all, yes, as the creation of Middle-earth continues. But yet when Tolkien passed on, what remains are questions and (arguably) assumptions about what he might have done to deal with an error.

... when even Tolkien wrote to a correspondent that he thought he made an error and left one out.

But in the same letter JRRT thought that 19th should possibly be read for 20th; and so far I'm no sure that Tolkien intended to add Tar-Ardamin in 1955. And yes, one could argue Tolkien intended to add him in 1960 at least, by 'unearthing' LE and simply looking at it in the form it was left behind by its author; but on the other hand, and for whatever reason, JRRT did not add him when the chance came, and he certainly revised not only the Appendices but the list of Numenorean names even, altering the form of the name Tar-Vanimalde

(Minor errors would seem to me a given, but how we could find them without access to the archived papers is problematic.) That Tolkien left out one king – about whom he probably knew very little other than the name in the mid-1950s – is by far the simplest explanation.

Perhaps I'm asking for a level of certainty that now cannot be known, I admit.

To incorporate some other explanation, I think you have to justify it. You need to provide the citations, and you to be sure that what you’re citing isn’t overridden by a subsequently corrected version. For instance, if you’re citing a date from a document that references only 12 or 20 kings of Númenor, we need to know that. If the Second Age is about 2000 years long in that document rather than about 3000 years long in the text that you’re using, we should know that, too.

I'm using LE but also trying to take these things into consideration. But that means more time and that's part of why I'm asking for help (I don't know when I'll get around to reading all the texts again, those that touch upon this matter, but LE seems a good place to start, being relatively short for one thing). But I 'must' alter the published text or LE in some respects to imagine one reasonably flowing internal history. I could just create my own 'history' that attempts to fill in around the Appendices alone. Is that not what readers normally do, or some can do at least, before the author himself reveals more, by publication?

Again, in no way does this project intend to supersede even JRRT's 'unpublished' writing. And another reason to try to alter LE to fit with the published tale? just plain fun :D

[Galin]

We can see from the graph, that even if we include the pink dot instead of the blue one, this will not make Tar-Elendil too old at the birth of his first child. Anyway the children were ALWAYS born during THE FIRST HALF of the parents' life: before 200 for those living 400+, before 100 for those living 200+.

And that's why I don't really like my two 'late births' all that much. But on the other hand, what do you think of this tinkering specifically -- if it all works that is, and gets us to the goal in Appendix B?

Too much? acceptable? considering too that details don't have to be trodden on with respect to Isilmo (even if the detail is invented).

[Gordis]

As I needed to 'push around' a fair number of years I introduced some unusually late births with respect to Tar-S and Tar-M. If I recall correctly, one of the rulers had a child as late as 193 (in LE Tar-Elendil 'married late in life' and Tar-Meneldur was his 3rd child), but I went notably beyond this for Isilmo's birth, and Tar-C's as well (I gave Isilmo his son when he (Isilmo) was 198, keeping the birth of Tar-S at 1174, as in LE). I98 is possible, I think, - that would be the age of Tar-Elendil if he was born as in LE (in 350) but had his daughter in 548 -as in TY.


Despite that Tar-Telperien was 'long-lived' and etc (LE) I took 33 years off her life (!) to match dates for Tar-M, which takes 33 years off her rule as well. I didn't want to do this
That is, as you say, not good. Why would the good Queen Telperien die so early? It would be unprecedented at the time - an would need some explanation... like her keeping nine black cats and one white, you know :D But seriously my advice is to try to avoid it. Leave her with at least 400 years life span, please.

-- and on that note, the alterations I don't really like are having Isilmo born (for some reason) 100 years after Tar-T (which makes Tar-S 246 at the time, well over 193). And Tar-M has Tar-C at age 238, again well over 193. Having 100 years between siblings may be OK, curious but possible. Tar-M having Tar-C (his first child and Heir) at 233 is much worse, because it shows Tar-M's irresponsibility towards his line. But, according to you (and LE), Tar-M was a good king.

You see, Tar-Elendil could well procrastinate with his marriage: he had a younger brother Earendur with male heirs Caliondo and Malantur. Had he died childless, it would have been no big deal for the line, see here:The line of Elros in UT (http://www.tuckborough.net/images/numenor-tree.gif)
Not so with Tar-Minastir. He was the last of the line of Ancalime, that Tar-Aldarion took such pains to put upon the throne. Had Minastir died childless, there would have likely been a dynastic conflict, with all these distant heirs under the Old Law and the New Law claiming the throne.


If Isilmo has Tar-M at age 198 I have Tar-M born in 1618. He takes the sceptre at age 80 in 1698 (though as I say I like your reasoning on this matter). T-M rules till 2017 and dies in 2021.When T-M is age 238 (the 2nd manipulation that exceeds 193) Tar-C is born in 1856. He rules from 2017 to 2251.
Here you have several more problems.
1. It would take quite some time for young Minastir to build his tower and became famous in spending all his time in it - doesn't seem like an activity fit for a very young man.
2.One bigger problem is this entry in TY -LOTR: C 1800. From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. The shadow falls on Númenor.(TY) According to your dating it would be during the reign of Minastir, yet we know that it were the Kings after him who became greedy of wealth and desired domination.
3.The third problem is the name of Tar-Ciryatan, the Shipbuilder.What ships did he build and when? One great ship-building was recorded in the given time period, when the Armada for ME was being prepared in 1694-1700. In LE, Ciryatan was 60-66 years old at this time and it stands to reason that he was known to build these ships (maybe this task was assigned to the Heir). But later an, what ships were there to build? After the War Numenor had more ships it needed in times of peace as not a single one would have been lost to the sea (see Akallabeth). In your timeline, Galin, the connection between Ciryatan (b.1869) and the 1700 Armada would become impossible.
4. Ciryatan would be only 60 when he dethrones his father forcefully. Isn't it a bit young?;) .

Essentially introducing a couple unexplained late births -- again unless I've made some obvious mistake (very possible!) that I haven't noticed -- this seems to get us to Tar-Atanamir and Appendix B. Then I start 'cutting back' to get back on track with LE.
Well, your theory does have problems I have listed above, but so do all the others.;)

With Tar-Minastir the Line of Elros has another problem: the date of his forced retirement (Ciryatan's coup that brought him down). It is dated 1969 and Minastir died… FOUR years later in 1973, being 399 years old. Now then… wasn't it high time to retire anyway? He must have been fast declining, falling into dotage. Decent kings retired full ten years prior to expected death, if not earlier.. As we must change dates to try to account for published material, I'm not sure we should also fiddle with this part within LE itself, unless we have to for some reason, or a variant text is used.
If we look at TY the noticeable change of policy occurs in 1800. (From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. The shadow falls on Númenor.-TY). I would stipulate it marks the end of the reign of Minastir.

I think it's good Isilmo is a relative unknown. In a sense, at least I am not changing his specific history when I have him born so many years after Tar-T for example. Of course my reason is external and may stick out compared to other details in LE, but with him we don't have to actually change written history when fixing a date.
Still you have a big problem. If Isilmo is so much younger than his sister, then he must considerably outlive her. The scepter is his by right.* Why doesn't he become the next King? He couldn't refuse** (and actually the only excuse for a male would be old age), he must be granted one honorary year of rule, as Vardamir Nolimon. Isilmo was not. Why?

*According to the "new law," the heir of the Ruler was the nearest male kinsman whether by male or female descent . -Aldarion and Erendis, UT
**A legitimate male heir, on the other hand, could not refuse; but since a King could always resign the Sceptre, a male heir could in fact immediately resign to his natural heir. He was then himself deemed also to have reigned for at least one year; and this was the case (the only case) with Vardamir, the son of Elros, who did not ascend the throne but gave the Sceptre to his son Amandil.- Note 26 to Aldarion and Erendis.

[Gordis]

But on the other hand, what do you think of this tinkering specifically -- if it all works that is, and gets us to the goal in Appendix B?

Too much? acceptable? considering too that details don't have to be trodden on with respect to Isilmo (even if the detail is invented).
I think it is not "too much" and very interesting - you will try to reach the timeline in TY without any wraiths and I will do the same work introducing a helpful Nazgul Ring in there.
Every theory will have its own list of problems, no doubt.
We shall see which history looks better and which one Tolkien might have intended (arguably).;)
Up until now, I was not aware that your (ringless) approach to the problem was even feasible. :cool:

[Galin]

That is, as you say, not good. Why would the good Queen Telperien die so early? It would be unprecedented at the time - an would need some explanation... like her keeping nine black cats and one white, you know :D But seriously my advice is to try to avoid it. Leave her with at least 400 years life span, please.

OK, but how to have Tar-M take the throne before 1700? In LE he takes the throne when Tar-T dies (so I also did not have her live longer than her rule). If we adjust her birth this impacts other dates of course.

Having 100 years between siblings may be OK, curious but possible. Tar-M having Tar-C (his first child and Heir) at 233 is much worse, because it shows Tar-M's irresponsibility towards his line. But, according to you (and LE), Tar-M was a good king.

But what if he wanted to have a child earlier, but couldn't?

1. It would take quite some time for young Minastir to build his tower and became famous in spending all his time in it - doesn't seem like an activity fit for a very young man.

Well young by N. standards, but yet still 80. And I think other reasons for this name can be possible too, in any case.

One bigger problem is this entry in TY -LOTR: According to your dating it would be during the reign of Minastir, yet we know that it were the Kings after him who became greedy of wealth and desired domination.

Hmmm, I'll think on this.

The third problem is the name of Tar-Ciryatan, the Shipbuilder. What ships did he build and when? One great ship-building was recorded in the given time period, when the Armada for ME was being prepared in 1694-1700. In LE, Ciryatan was 60-66 years old at this time and it stands to reason that he was known to build these ships (maybe this task was assigned to the Heir). But later an, what ships were there to build? After the War Numenor had more ships it needed in times of peace as not a single one would have been lost to the sea (see Akallabeth). In your timeline, Galin, the connection between Ciryatan (b.1869) and the 1700 Armada would become impossible.

I'll try to come up with something on the name.

4. Ciryatan would be only 60 when he dethrones his father forcefully. Isn't it a bit young? ;)

I thought I had him at age 161 when he took the throne. No?

Still you have a big problem. If Isilmo is so much younger than his sister, then he must considerably outlive her. The scepter is his by right.* Why doesn't he become the next King? He couldn't refuse** (and actually the only excuse for a male would be old age), he must be granted one honorary year of rule, as Vardamir Nolimon. Isilmo was not. Why?

I made him considerably younger yes, but Tolkien himself made him younger and didn't answer that one. Anyway, again exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Challenge my (for now) draft scheme to make it better...

... but don't be shy regarding solutions to the challenges too :)

[Gordis]

OK, but how to have Tar-M take the throne before 1700? In LE he takes the throne when Tar-T dies (so I also did not have her live longer than her rule). If we adjust her birth this impacts other dates of course.
I have solved it this way, keeping the life spans intact:

Anarion 973- 1384 - born thirty years earlier than in LE. It seems to fit one of the versions of A&E in UT.
Surion 1134-1534 - forty years earlier than in LE
Telperien 1280-1691-forty years earlier than in LE

I don't see any problems arising from that shift - and it keeps the history in LE all but intact.

But what if he wanted to have a child earlier, but couldn't?
As funny as it seems, having problems of this kind seems very Un-Numenorean.:D Infertility, infant death - seems there was nothing of this kind in the blissful Elenna.

Well young by N. standards, but yet still 80. And I think other reasons for this name can be possible too, in any case.
It is so well explained in LE why his name was given...Pity to discard that

I thought I had him at age 161 when he took the throne. No?Sorry, my bad.


I made him considerably younger yes, but Tolkien himself made him younger and didn't answer that one. Actually if there was the usual 11 years difference between siblings, and Telperien lived to 411, while Isilmo lived to 399 or 400, he would die before Telperien. I think that is the answer to the riddle in LE.:cool:


but don't be shy regarding solutions to the challenges too :)I am doing my best:)

[Alcuin]

OK, but how to have Tar-M take the throne before 1700? In LE he takes the throne when Tar-T dies (so I also did not have her live longer than her rule). If we adjust her birth this impacts other dates of course.I’m sorry, but Entmoot is like an addiction right now. I need to stop, but I’m still reading.

Tar-Minastir almost certainly acted as co-regent with his aunt, Tar-Telperiën, during the final years of her reign. He was young, probably quite vigorous, and almost certainly wanted the assignment to go deal with “the Gil-galad problem.� He was in charge of organizing, administering, and leading the Númenórean force to Middle-earth. It was to that point in Númenórean history the single largest undertaking the Dúnedain had ever attempted, something akin to the invasion of Normandy, but from bases across the Atlantic Ocean.

In Gondor, there is an echo of this. Minalcar, later Rómendacil II, served as Karma-kundo, or regent, first for his uncle and then his father. And in “The Line of Elros,� Tolkien says that beginning with Tar-Atanamir, kings sat on the throne until they fell into dotage (senility) and finally died, but that their heirs or advisors in fact ruled in the name of the king and exercised royal authority. Besides setting the legal precedent for Minalcar Rómendacil II to act as regent, this was probably a precedent already set by Tar-Telperiën and Tar-Minastir for purposes of state in order that Númenor could go to war alongside its ancient allies in Lindon. (And it may well be that Glorfindel came over from Eldamar and went with them; but that’s another thread, and outside what I can discuss today.)

Now, what did little Númenórean children learn in school beginning in the eighteenth century of the Second Age? That Tar-Telperiën sent the fleet to Númenor? Or that Tar-Minastir did?

There’s a logical solution. It fits the texts, it changes nothing that has been published, it makes sense, and it is, I think, the simplest solution. And it ties up all the loose ends on this issue, leaving no mess and no residue to clean.

(Will someone please stop me from posting… I’m going to have to join EPA – Entmoot Posters Anonymous.)

[Gordis]

The precedent for regentship was set long before Atanamir or Telperien - in Tar-Aldarion's times:
There was a stir in Númenor when Tar-Aldarion determined to return to Middle-earth in 883 or 884, for no King had ever before left the Isle, and the Council had no precedent. It seems that Meneldur was offered but refused the regency, and that Hallatan of Hyarastorni became regent, either appointed by the Council or by Tar-Aldarion himself.-Aldarion and Erendis
Telperien, if she died in 1731 would still be hale and sound in 1694-1700, vigorous and not in dotage. Why would she need a regent? She liked to rule - if not she would have resigned the sceptre to her brother.

And if the War happened during her reign, than the children would read in text-books "Tar-Telperien sent fleet to ME", not "Tar-Minastir sent". The King/Queen sends the Fleet and nobody cares who had actually slaved to build this fleet - in all likelihood it was Ciryatan the Heir. So, I disagree with this solution.:)

[Galin]

I have solved it this way, keeping the life spans intact:

Anarion 973- 1384 - born thirty years earlier than in LE. It seems to fit one of the versions of A&E in UT.
Surion 1134-1534 - forty years earlier than in LE
Telperien 1280-1691-forty years earlier than in LE

I don't see any problems arising from that shift - and it keeps the history in LE all but intact.

Hmmm, and are you also adjusting for my already late birth with Isilmo?

As funny as it seems, having problems of this kind seems very Un-Numenorean.:D Infertility, infant death - seems there was nothing of this kind in the blissful Elenna.

I was thinking infertility problems (obviously solved). True I can't think why, but it would arguably mix things up a bit, if possible.

It is so well explained in LE why his name was given...Pity to discard that

How about same reason as in LE, but just emphasize why it is Minastir and not a name related to the Middle-earth event (important though it is). Generally speaking I'm very interested in Tolkien's nomenclature, and his creativity here is amazing, not unexpectedly.


Actually if there was the usual 11 years difference between siblings, and Telperien lived to 411, while Isilmo lived to 399 or 400, he would die before Telperien. I think that is the answer to the riddle in LE.:cool:

Maybe. In any case if people will accept not knowing from JRRT himself, I thought Isilmo was a good target for manipulation, without necessarily explaining the details.

Ah, good to see Alcuin in the mix!

[Gordis]

Hmmm, and are you also adjusting for my already late birth with Isilmo?
No, I wasn't. You see, it is difficult to do without having your table before me.
If Isilmo is also 40 years older than you planned he would have Tar-M at 238 not 198? Am I correct?

I was thinking infertility problems (obviously solved). True I can't think why, but it would arguably mix things up a bit, if possible.
Oh, well... It is just as I thought: instead of introducing a Ring, you would need to introduce some quite unlikely factors.:p
But no pun intended, seriously.

How about same reason as in LE, but just emphasize why it is Minastir and not a name related to the Middle-earth event (important though it is). Generally speaking I'm very interested in Tolkien's nomenclature, and his creativity here is amazing, not unexpectedly.
Tar-M, if he took the scepter BEFORE the war, couldn't have had a name related to the War or the Fleet. Here all is perfectly OK. Perhaps in 1694 he had just completed building his silly Tower aimed to gaze towards the boring West?:rolleyes:

Maybe. In any case if people will accept not knowing from JRRT himself, I thought Isilmo was a good target for manipulation, without necessarily explaining the details.My advice is: kill him early, before Telperien dies. Make him fall from his horse and break his neck, or drown, or get a lance in the eye during a tournament. :cool:
No Isilmo at Telperien's death, no problem.:)

[Galin]

No, I wasn't. You see, it is difficult to do without having your table before me. If Isilmo is also 40 years older than you planned he would have Tar-M at 238 not 198? Am I correct?

This is why I don't want to move the birth date of Tar-S. In my scheme Tar-S has Isilmo at age 246 and Isilmo has Tar-M at age 198. Then Tar-M has the 'other' late birth. I thought it best to split this up. If we keep the 100 years age gap with your new date, then Isilmo is born in 1380, and yes I think he would then have to have Tar-M at age 238 to get us (back) to my b. date for Tar-M (1618). But then we have three births after age 200 'in a row': Tar-S has Isilmo at age 246 (as in my scheme), and Isilmo now is 238, exactly the age I have Tar-M having Tar-C.

If we add 20 years to Tar-T's life (according to my dates) she could be 398 at her death. By my math she's then 256 when she takes the throne. Tar-S is 226 when he has Isilmo (better than my earlier 246!) but Isilmo is now 218 when he has his son, instead of 198 years old. This still means three births over 200, lessening the age of Tar-S but adding to Isilmo. But maybe we keep Isilmo at 198, and Tar-M is now b. 1598, and is thus 100 in 1698 when he takes the throne (instead of 80). By keeping Tar-T's death date at 1698 but having her born in 1300 (not 1320), this lessens her rule by 20 years. Isilmo is born in 1400 (same 100 year gap), but again if he stays 198 then Tar-M is born 20 years earlier in 1598 -- if we keep his ruling years the same we make him 20 years older at his death, thus 423 (more 'like' Elros in this category, but still well enough away from 500), and also 20 years older (258) when he has Tar-C, if Tar-C's birth is still 1856.

This gives us an older Tar-Telperien, and Tar-Ciryatan is now the latest birth (born to Tar-M when he was 258, instead of the former latest birth being Tar-S having his son at 246).

Or that's what I think I did :D

I did this very quickly so I'll have to check. I'll be surprised if I didn't screw something up somewhere.

Oh, well... It is just as I thought: instead of introducing a Ring, you would need to introduce some quite unlikely factors.

Why is an infertility problem (in any case he did have a son of course) quite unlikely? Is there any textual evidence, especially Tolkien published, that gets in the way (again I haven't refreshed my memory yet on the related texts)?

We could have an infant, or youth, accidentally slain too. I especially don't think a reader would question Tolkien if he had incorporated an accident, for example.

Tar-M, if he took the scepter BEFORE the war, couldn't have had a name related to the War or the Fleet. Here all is perfectly OK. Perhaps in 1694he had just completed building his silly Tower aimed to gaze towards the boring West?

I agree, but you had it on your problem list because Tar-M (in my scheme) was 80 when he took the sceptre, so I just responded there.

I'm not sure he needs to do both (build the tower and spend 'great part of his days') before 1700 to have acquired this name, but even if so it's not very problematic in my opinion, as 80 years is only relatively short for mortals, as I say. Also, if the new version works, he would be 100 in 1698.

My advice is: kill him early, before Telperien dies. Make him fall from his horse and break his neck, or drown, or get a lance in the eye during a tournament. :cool: No Isilmo at Telperien's death, no problem.:)

Aha, so accidents can happen ;)

By the way, is Tar-Ciryatan said to mean 'ship builder' in anything published by Tolkien himself (in know that's the meaning in Akallabeth at least)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, people. I certainly don't want to intrude your rather interesting debate (if nothing more), it's interesting to read all these theories and one learns many things. However, at the risk of interrupting your arguing over living and dying kings and sons and relatives, I would like to raise opposing voice here.

There is one problem with the last two and half pages of your posting, if not more, and that is, it all stands on one assumption, which is far from being verified. It is actually far from being verified. And it is - whoever said that there was actually any Nazgul present on Númenor?

It is just a pure speculation. I have to agree that Alcuin's theory as presented (even though I didn't have the time to read it all properly, I have just skimmed through it) is most impressive (and even dangerously convincing, as I have read it), however, I am not letting myself to be convinced so easily. Especially now seeing that everybody accepted it so easily.

Why should the darkening of Númenor be caused by the presence of one or more Nazgul on the island itself? By some of their dark plotting, intentional or unintentional, just by the dark power of some Rings? Yes, I agree, it was quite sudden. However, we hear the reasons - Sauron was rising again, darkness was spreading in Middle-Earth. And, most of all, Númenoreans are just Men like anybody else. It is a general rule in Tolkien's world, in Arda Marred, that everything goes from good to bad, eventually, if there is no good outside intervention. Especially with Men. Around the time of Tar-Atanamir, it's been for far too long since some really ground-shaking event happened in M-E. It was about time that something went wrong.

When I just think of the "New Shadow" - the sequel to LotR Tolkien was planning - it took really just a short while before something went wrong in the reestablished Kingdom.

I deem that the "shadow upon Númenor" is explainable even without any inner plots involving people possessing the Rings of Power. In LotR, Appendix A, we read:
Moreover, after Minastir the Kings became greedy of wealth and power. At first the Númenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends of lesser Men afflicted by Sauron; but now their havens became fortresses, holding wide coast-tends in subjection. Atanamir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Númenoreans returned laden with spoil.
Simple greed, nothing more than that. Is it the first time we have seen such things happening? Certainly not. The Númenoreans have been secluded on their island for too long, suddenly, rich lands opened to them. With Minastir's fleet, they were the saviors, and they came and interacted with the people of Middle-Earth, but at some point, it just was not enough. Somebody started to think about the profit that could be gained, indeed, in likeness to Melkor with the primal Arda, the Númenoreans coveted for these beautiful lands, wishing to take them for their own.

The Númenoreans began to establish their colonies in Middle-Earth "c. 1800" and that's also the time when shadow falls on Númenor, the datation is so vague that it's even annoying. However, it is clear that the three Númenoreans among the Nazgul had to be given the Rings sometime during the era since this to 2251. In 2251, the Nazgul first appear (as wraiths already). That means they were in Sauron's service already, likely in Mordor, as having a weird transparent guy as your neighbour will be certainly strange.

But whereas "shadow descended upon Númenor", it was still not common for the Númenoreans to be particularly wicked, and a person with a Ring of Power would make a great fuss. Who could be made a Ringwraith?

1. Somebody who met Sauron (or his emissary, in the worst case)
2. Therefore, somebody who has been to Middle-Earth, and not just remained on Númenor
3. That somebody had to be important enough to bring Sauron's attention.

More than a visiting nobleman from Númenor (let alone a heir of the throne!), I would bet on some "governor" of some coastal city. Somebody who caught Sauron's eye. Either a very capable governor, or a "Pizarro" who did very well in exploiting the "wild" Men of Middle-Earth. Perhaps he gave a Ring even to some brave explorer (of noble family, not unlike Aldarion).

I find it unlikely that Sauron would let such a person simply go back to Númenor. Of course it is not about "letting", he had no total command over them until they became Ringwraiths. But still, he would probably choose somebody who remained in Middle-Earth. (Or even better, some promising noble who was willing to join him rightaway - even that might have happened, if the person was corruptible enough.)

Letting his "prey" leave too far, beyond his reach, would be risky for Sauron. I don't think Sauron had already such daring plans so that he would plant a seed of evil in the very center of the Númenorean empire by letting a person with a Ring roam free there and Sauron would just "see what happens". That would be too risky. The Ring would be too far from him, and too close to the West. Sauron could not be sure what would happen if some wise Númenorean scholars or visiting Elves from the West by chance spotted something weird and the guy was revealed. Also, he could not say if the Ring's power would not wane or something, being so far in the West. Most of all, what would happen, once the person started to "fade"? The Dark Lord had to be sure that he can call the newly forming Nazgul to him ASAP. He wanted servants. And that's another point of mine.

Sauron needed to call the Ringwraith to himself once they became Ringwraith, and my opinion also is that he might have hoped to achieve something, let's say, political by picking these special individuals. At least some of them were "kings... of old" (Sil), it sounds likely that some of them were rulers - let's say, in the case of the non-Númenorean ones, of some tribe, or even realm? Like, a leader of the Easterling tribe XY becoming a Ringwraith, now that's a good move - all of a sudden, Sauron can count with the whole tribe being on his side. I find it likely that he might have done something similar with the Númenorean governors in Middle-Earth. Also,
But for a long time [Sauron] did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenorean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenoreans upon the shores of the sea.
To me, putting this information so close to each other could point to that the Nazgul had something to do with this "capturing the shore" move (I mean, something more important - not just the fact that they were leading Sauron's armies into battle). Be it exploiting the former Númenorean coast-dwellers' knowledge of the coastal fortresses, or be it attempts to seize power in the coastal cities by the Wraith-governors' rebellions, or using his friend Ar-Pizarro to help defeat Númenorean navy...

Anyway, my point is - I do not see much sense in having the bearers of the Nine, even as long as they were still alive, leave for Númenor. I find it far more likely that they would be the ones being and staying in Middle-Earth. I am not saying they could not have been high-ranking Númenorean nobles, even with some bits of the royal blood, if that were possible, but they would be made the coastal governors or representatives, "prefects", rulers of "colonies". That goes well with the idea of "three great lords of Númenorean race".

P.S. I apologise for the... length of my post, but I think most of you already have had some experience with that ;)

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc good to see you here by the way!

My little 'project' has no wraiths of course, but I do mean to think more about the TY reference c. 1800 (the shadow falls on N.), since Gordis brought it up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate of Amon Lanc good to see you here by the way!

My little 'project' has no wraiths of course, but I do mean to think more about the TY reference c. 1800 (the Shadow falls on N.), since Gordis brought it up

Yep, I'm also glad to see you around, although I can't promise how much I'll be around ;)

I was simply giving some of my opinions on the original topic of this thread and something I was not quite comfortable with about the way it was handled ;) Well, like I said, not that I'd wish to interrupt the ongoing debate :)

[Gordis]

If we add 20 years to Tar-T's life (according to my dates) she could be 398 at her death. By my math she's then 256 when she takes the throne. Tar-S is 226 when he has Isilmo (better than my earlier 246!) but Isilmo is now 218 when he has his son, instead of 198 years old. This still means three births over 200, lessening the age of Tar-S but adding to Isilmo. But maybe we keep Isilmo at 198, and Tar-M is now b. 1598, and is thus 100 in 1698 when he takes the throne (instead of 80). By keeping Tar-T's death date at 1698 but having her born in 1300 (not 1320), this lessens her rule by 20 years. Isilmo is born in 1400 (same 100 year gap), but again if he stays 198 then Tar-M is born 20 years earlier in 1598 -- if we keep his ruling years the same we make him 20 years older at his death, thus 423 (more 'like' Elros in this category, but still well enough away from 500), and also 20 years older (258) when he has Tar-C, if Tar-C's birth is still 1856.This seems Ok, except having Tar-M live to 423. In LE Tar-Atanamir refuses to lay down his life, yet he lives only to 421, and his last years are somewhat terrible. Hey, it was Tar-A "the Unwilling", not Tar-M.:p

Why is an infertility problem (in any case he did have a son of course) quite unlikely? Is there any textual evidence, especially Tolkien published, that gets in the way (again I haven't refreshed my memory yet on the related texts)? Well there were no childless couples in the Line of Elros, barring Miriel-Pharazon, but Miriel married quite old.
And we know that: This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars. But their numbers increased only slowly in the land, for though daughters and sons were born to them, fairer than their fathers, yet their children were few.Akallabeth

We could have an infant, or youth, accidentally slain too. I especially don't think a reader would question Tolkien if he had incorporated an accident, for example.
I think accidents are always possible, if you keep them to a minimum.;)

I agree, but you had it on your problem list because Tar-M (in my scheme) was 80 when he took the sceptre, so I just responded there.
I'm not sure he needs to do both (build the tower and spend 'great part of his days') before 1700 to have acquired this name, but even if so it's not very problematic in my opinion, as 80 years is only relatively short for mortals, as I say. Also, if the new version works, he would be 100 in 1698.
Most likely Telperien was ready to leave the scepter to Isilmo, in case he was 100 years younger than she, but then Isilmo died by accident and Minastir got the scepter at a much younger age than normal.

But I have found this at tuckborough.net/numenoreans.html (http://www.tuckborough.net/numenoreans.html)
Names & Etymology:
The name Minastir means "tower watcher" in Quenya from minas meaning "tower" and tir meaning "watch." He was so named because he gazed westward from the tower he built on Oromet. The prefix Tar means "high" and was used by the Kings and Queens of Numenor.
Makes sense: Palan-tir also has the "watch, look" part. So Minastir means not "builder of the tower", but "watcher from the tower".

By the way, is Tar-Ciryatan said to mean 'ship builder' in anything published by Tolkien himself (in know that's the meaning in Akallabeth at least)?Acallabeth, yes, LE, yes. LOTR gives no translation.
From tuckborough: The name Ciryatan means "ship builder" in Quenya from cirya meaning "ship" and tan meaning "make, fashion." He was called the Shipbuilder.

[Gordis]

Greetings, Legate, nice to see you here! :)

I will reply a bit later - sorry, no time right now.

[Galin]

This seems Ok, except having Tar-M live to 423. In LE Tar-Atanamir refuses to lay down his life, yet he lives only to 421, and his last years are somewhat terrible. Hey, it was Tar-A "the Unwilling", not Tar-M.

Still based on the new numbers for Tar-T above, I adjusted Tar-M down to age 403 (and have Tar-A living to age 421). It might work out better here actually, though I will have to also adjust a bit for the rulers that follow Tar-Atanamir, which I think can be done.

I think accidents are always possible, if you keep them to a minimum.

I think we can do that :)

Concerning Isilmo: we know he was younger than Tar-T according to Tolkien but we don't know why he seemingly did not rule at any point. I made him younger and didn't explain this as well. A convenient stance I know! Granted, my specific date, since he is notably younger, more strongly begs the question.

Makes sense: Palan-tir also has the "watch, look" part. So Minastir means not "builder of the tower", but "watcher from the tower".

Yes I figured that it didn't mean Tower-builder.

Acallabeth, yes, LE, yes. LOTR gives no translation.
From tuckborough: The name Ciryatan means "ship builder" in Quenya from cirya meaning "ship" and tan meaning "make, fashion." He was called the Shipbuilder.

Hmmm, if it's not translated in something published by Tolkien I might have an alternate meaning for Ciryatan (S. CÃ*rdan 'Ship-maker'). Not an alternate form, as that's published, just a different meaning. Like Tolkien's Celeborn 'Silver-tree' (for the tree), and Celeborn 'Silver-tall' for the person, for instance.

I'm still thinking of other reasons for this name. With respect to the meaning, my guess is that you would rather not alter it, and I know it goes against the idea that we try to keep the written history in. I'm not sure yet how well it will work anyway.

I'll try it for fun at least :D

By the way, I may also have to attend to other things soon. I'll try to get back to this if and when I can though.

[Galin]

Getting back to the earlier issues I said I would revisit.

This seems Ok, except having Tar-M live to 423. In LE Tar-Atanamir refuses to lay down his life, yet he lives only to 421, and his last years are somewhat terrible. Hey, it was Tar-A "the Unwilling", not Tar-M.

Still based on the new numbers for Tar-T above, I adjusted Tar-M down to age 403 (and have Tar-A living to age 421). It might work out better here actually, though I will have to also adjust a bit for the rulers that follow Tar-Atanamir, which I think can be done.

One bigger problem is this entry in TY -LOTR: C 1800. From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. The shadow falls on Númenor. (TY) According to your dating it would be during the reign of Minastir, yet we know that it were the Kings after him who became greedy of wealth and desired domination.

According to Appendix A: 'The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King.' It is said in Appendix A that after Minastir the Kings became greedy, and that though at first the Numenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends 'but now their havens became fortresses'. Though he is generally a good king, Minastir also envied the Elves, and longing for the life of the Eldar is the first sign.

3. The third problem is the name of Tar-Ciryatan, the Shipbuilder. What ships did he build and when? One great ship-building was recorded in the given time period, when the Armada for ME was being prepared in 1694-1700. In LE, Ciryatan was 60-66 years old at this time and it stands to reason that he was known to build these ships (maybe this task was assigned to the Heir). But later an, what ships were there to build? After the War Numenor had more ships it needed in times of peace as not a single one would have been lost to the sea (see Akallabeth). In your timeline, Galin, the connection between Ciryatan (b.1869) and the 1700 Armada would become impossible.


Right but the connection you refer to is not specifically stated (though I agree the idea seems certainly possible by LE dating). In LE it is written of Ciryatan: 'He was a mighty King, but greedy of wealth; he built a great fleet of royal ships, and his servants brought back great store of metals and gems, and oppressed the men of Middle-earth.'

Ciryatan could have built a more opulent fleet (being greedy of wealth and wanting to display it) for himself and those doing his purposes in Middle-earth, whether the new ships were truly necessary or not. Perhaps even the simple fact that the vessels involved in 1700 were not made under his guidance (if so) was enough reason for him, and if he got personally involved with the wrights in the design or construction of his ships, this could have helped him earn this name.

I note that it was written of Ar-Pharazon (Akallabeth) : '... and many ships of war he built'. He then comes to Middle-earth, takes Sauron to Numenor, yet later it's noted of the Numenoreans 'and they built even greater ships'. Generally speaking ship building had begun long before Minastir of course, including vessels large enough to visit Middle-earth. And from Aldarion and Erendis: 'The ships of the Numenoreans became even larger and of greater draught in those days, until they could make far voyages, carrying many men and great cargoes...' Aldarion built some notable vessels, but ship building continued of course.

In short, one answer could simply be that Ciryatan built ships despite the fleet used in 1700.

[Gordis]

Sorry for the delay, Galin and Legate - I've had a very difficult week at work. Also it tends to become worse, I will hardly post more till the end of March.

Getting back to the earlier issues I said I would revisit.
Still based on the new numbers for Tar-T above, I adjusted Tar-M down to age 403 (and have Tar-A living to age 421). It might work out better here actually, though I will have to also adjust a bit for the rulers that follow Tar-Atanamir, which I think can be done. It seems much better.

According to Appendix A: 'The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King.' It is said in Appendix A that after Minastir the Kings became greedy, and that though at first the Numenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends 'but now their havens became fortresses'. Though he is generally a good king, Minastir also envied the Elves, and longing for the life of the Eldar is the first sign.As it stands in LE, it could be attributed to Ciryatan's doings while he was still the Heir. He made many voyages to ME before taking the scepter, while his father sat in his stupid tower doing nothing.

Ciryatan could have built a more opulent fleet (being greedy of wealth and wanting to display it) for himself and those doing his purposes in Middle-earth, whether the new ships were truly necessary or not. Perhaps even the simple fact that the vessels involved in 1700 were not made under his guidance (if so) was enough reason for him, and if he got personally involved with the wrights in the design or construction of his ships, this could have helped him earn this name. It is certainly possible (though I personally prefer to link Ciryatan with the Armada ;))

I note that it was written of Ar-Pharazon (Akallabeth) : '... and many ships of war he built'. He then comes to Middle-earth, takes Sauron to Numenor, yet later it's noted of the Numenoreans 'and they built even greater ships'. We had another thread about ships here (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15011) and IIRC there was an idea that the new fleet designed to go West (unlike the one sent against Sauron) was all composed of galleys with oars as Pharazon couldn't hope for favorable winds while going against the Valar. Thus the necessity to build new ships.

[Gordis]

There is one problem with the last two and half pages of your posting, if not more, and that is, it all stands on one assumption, which is far from being verified. It is actually far from being verified. And it is - whoever said that there was actually any Nazgul present on Númenor?
Anyway, my point is - I do not see much sense in having the bearers of the Nine, even as long as they were still alive, leave for Númenor. I find it far more likely that they would be the ones being and staying in Middle-Earth. I am not saying they could not have been high-ranking Númenorean nobles, even with some bits of the royal blood, if that were possible, but they would be made the coastal governors or representatives, "prefects", rulers of "colonies". That goes well with the idea of "three great lords of Númenorean race". And who said there were no Nazgul in Numenor? ;)
But seriously, we do know that there were three Numenoreans among the Nazgul, and not just your average Numenoreans, bur "great lords". Now, before Umbar was made into a great fortress of Númenor in SA 2280 and Pelargir was built in 2350, there were no large Numenorean dominions in ME. There were only Vinylonde/Lond Daer and the precursor of Umbar. Would you expect any of these small settlements to be ruled by a "great lord?" More likely you would find there an old colonel serving his term in the colonies and very much looking forward to return home.
And if a "great lord" could be occasionally found in ME, of course he would never settle there for good, taking his wife, children and all, before some really strong fortresses would be built. Great lords have influential families, lots of relations and dependants, they would wish to show themselves at the court in Armenelos occasionally, they would wish to be buried in the family's crypt in Numenor.

Therefore Sauron had to be aware that to whatever great lord he may have given a ring, this ring would find its way to Numenor sooner or later. It is not as if the wielder of a ring becomes Sauron's slave immediately - it is a gradual process.( Gandalf: "sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him"). For a long time a future nazgul would lead a normal life and go to Numenor when he wished.

Why should the darkening of Númenor be caused by the presence of one or more Nazgul on the island itself? By some of their dark plotting, intentional or unintentional, just by the dark power of some Rings? Yes, I agree, it was quite sudden. However, we hear the reasons - Sauron was rising again, darkness was spreading in Middle-Earth. And the distribution of Rings was just a part of the rising darkness, wasn't it? "Rising darkness" is just a figure of speech.. The time coincidence shouldn't be glossed over, I think - the shadow suddenly fell on Numenor no sooner and no later than when Sauron likely distributed the Nine.

And, most of all, Númenoreans are just Men like anybody else. It is a general rule in Tolkien's world, in Arda Marred, that everything goes from good to bad, eventually, if there is no good outside intervention. Especially with Men. Around the time of Tar-Atanamir, it's been for far too long since some really ground-shaking event happened in M-E. It was about time that something went wrong.
When I just think of the "New Shadow" - the sequel to LotR Tolkien was planning - it took really just a short while before something went wrong in the reestablished Kingdom.
I deem that the "shadow upon Númenor" is explainable even without any inner plots involving people possessing the Rings of Power. In LotR, Appendix A, we read:[…]
Simple greed, nothing more than that. Is it the first time we have seen such things happening? Certainly not. The Númenoreans have been secluded on their island for too long, suddenly, rich lands opened to them. With Minastir's fleet, they were the saviors, and they came and interacted with the people of Middle-Earth, but at some point, it just was not enough. Somebody started to think about the profit that could be gained, indeed, in likeness to Melkor with the primal Arda, the Númenoreans coveted for these beautiful lands, wishing to take them for their own.
That is certainly true. The rising greed and the lust for domination COULD have arisen quite naturally. If not, it needed but very little prompting. But there was more, like this: It was Tar-Atanamir who first spoke openly against the Ban and declared that the life of the Eldar was his by right -App A. A pretty strong statement, isn't it? Do you think it was just like that - out of the blue?

The Númenoreans began to establish their colonies in Middle-Earth "c. 1800" and that's also the time when shadow falls on Númenor, the datation is so vague that it's even annoying. However, it is clear that the three Númenoreans among the Nazgul had to be given the Rings sometime during the era since this to 2251. In 2251, the Nazgul first appear (as wraiths already). That means they were in Sauron's service already, likely in Mordor, as having a weird transparent guy as your neighbour will be certainly strange.
Unfortunately we don't know that much, only this quote from TA: "2251 About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear." To say that ALL of them - all nine - were already wraiths by 2251 is simple speculation. We can only be sure that some beings later identifiable as nazgul were first observed by "good guys" about 2251. We don't even know whether they were observed in ME or in Numenor.
But I agree, the rings were most likely distributed during the time-period you specify. Yet the possibility that some were distributed later: from 2251 to the time of the Downfall is not precluded, strictly speaking.

But whereas "shadow descended upon Númenor", it was still not common for the Númenoreans to be particularly wicked, and a person with a Ring of Power would make a great fuss. Who could be made a Ringwraith?

1. Somebody who met Sauron (or his emissary, in the worst case)
2. Therefore, somebody who has been to Middle-Earth, and not just remained on Númenor
3. That somebody had to be important enough to bring Sauron's attention.
One of the three Numenorean Lords had to be approached by Sauron in disguise directly, I think, and it had to be in ME. Yet for two others there was no such necessity, as the first one was most likely bidden to transmit the Rings to his kin or superiors. Riches and tribute were flowing to Numenor from the colonies. Tat-Telemmaite, for instance, even got his name from his love for Moria-silver. I guess his predecessors also loved costly and beautiful things. What more fitting present than an Elven Ring could there be for a King from one of ME governors? It would have been foolish NOT to use such an opportunity.

More than a visiting nobleman from Númenor (let alone a heir of the throne!), I would bet on some "governor" of some coastal city. Somebody who caught Sauron's eye. Either a very capable governor, or a "Pizarro" who did very well in exploiting the "wild" Men of Middle-Earth. Perhaps he gave a Ring even to some brave explorer (of noble family, not unlike Aldarion). Yes, that describes the FIRST victim well enough.

I find it unlikely that Sauron would let such a person simply go back to Númenor. Of course it is not about "letting", he had no total command over them until they became Ringwraiths. But still, he would probably choose somebody who remained in Middle-Earth. (Or even better, some promising noble who was willing to join him rightaway - even that might have happened, if the person was corruptible enough.)
As I said above, I don't think he could find a "Geat Lord" who would remain in ME for good. The Numenorean settlers were most likely simple people who had not enough land in Numenor and desired to enrich themselves. As for the "willing noble" that would be improbable - impossible - to find a noble Numenorean willing to join the Enemy: the recently defeated Enemy. What for? Why? As you said yourself, at the time Numenoreans were good people as a rule. Moreover we know that Sauron used the Rings to deceive the future nazgul. It was a hook - not a reward for faithful service.

]Letting his "prey" leave too far, beyond his reach, would be risky for Sauron. I don't think Sauron had already such daring plans so that he would plant a seed of evil in the very center of the Númenorean empire by letting a person with a Ring roam free there and Sauron would just "see what happens". That would be too risky. The Ring would be too far from him, and too close to the West. Sauron could not be sure what would happen if some wise Númenorean scholars or visiting Elves from the West by chance spotted something weird and the guy was revealed. Also, he could not say if the Ring's power would not wane or something, being so far in the West. Most of all, what would happen, once the person started to "fade"? The Dark Lord had to be sure that he can call the newly forming Nazgul to him ASAP. I think the risk here was unavoidable: if he wanted persons of note, "great lords" of noble blood, influential people, he had to risk. Sauron knew how to take necessary risks, like taking the One to Numenor while a prisoner. As for returning to him… I remember how Gollum was drawn to Mordor. He was not yet a wraith, he had already lost the Ring - but he was drawn there all the same. I think the nazgul, once they entered the "transformation phase" were drawn to Sauron much in the same way.

He wanted servants. And that's another point of mine.
Sauron needed to call the Ringwraith to himself once they became Ringwraiths, and my opinion also is that he might have hoped to achieve something, let's say, political by picking these special individuals. At least some of them were "kings... of old" (Sil), it sounds likely that some of them were rulers - let's say, in the case of the non-Númenorean ones, of some tribe, or even realm? Like, a leader of the Easterling tribe XY becoming a Ringwraith, now that's a good move - all of a sudden, Sauron can count with the whole tribe being on his side. I find it likely that he might have done something similar with the Númenorean governors in Middle-Earth. I have no doubt it was Sauron's principal motive. Not only to get skilled, intelligent, strong servants, but to achieve great political advantages.

To me, putting this information so close to each other could point to that the Nazgul had something to do with this "capturing the shore" move (I mean, something more important - not just the fact that they were leading Sauron's armies into battle). Be it exploiting the former Númenorean coast-dwellers' knowledge of the coastal fortresses, or be it attempts to seize power in the coastal cities by the Wraith-governors' rebellions, or using his friend Ar-Pizarro to help defeat Númenorean navy... Indeed, whoever Sauron had "enlisted" into his service likely had some connection to these coastal cities. Maybe one had been a governor there for a time, maybe another had sailed there many times, maybe the third one had built the fortress in question during his reign…:p

Yet - note the important thing: no Numenorean fortress had fallen into Sauron's hands at the time because its governor became a nazgul - which means that if Sauron had this in mind while distributing the Rings, he had failed. What worked with the Eastern tribes, didn't work with Numenorean colonies, much less with Numenor itself. The only positive political result for Sauron was the darkening of Numenor and rebellion of the Kings against the Valar. Not bad, actually.;)

But if you deny the connection between the Shadow on Numenor and the distribution of the Rings, then you will have to admit that the Numenorean nazgul brought Sauron NO POLITICAL advantages at all. Three of the Nine Rings he had wasted only to get three seven-foot-tall guys in black cloaks speaking flawless Adunaic, nothing more.:rolleyes:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And who said there were no Nazgul in Numenor? ;)
But seriously, we do know that there were three Numenoreans among the Nazgul, and not just your average Numenoreans, bur "great lords".
I never said they were "average Númenoreans", I actually reminded several times that they were "lords"...

Now, before Umbar was made into a great fortress of Númenor in SA 2280 and Pelargir was built in 2350, there were no large Numenorean dominions in ME. There were only Vinylonde/Lond Daer and the precursor of Umbar.
E-eee. Twooot. Wrong! There were some colonies, perhaps not great cities (in fact, except for those you mention, there were none like Minas Tirith until... well, until the refugees built Minas Tirith :D ), but large enough, eventually - you have to consider that all the important cities we read about in Sil and in LotR are the biggest cities of their era, let's say like New York today or, to speak in medieval terms, some Paris or London at its time; nevertheless, it does not mean that there were not lesser, but still pretty important cities. (And also, let us not forget that what we are talking about are just the cities in North-Western M-E. We know that the Númenoreans sailed very far, and we know for sure that they reached even places really far in Harad etc., so even there they surely had at least some coastal colonies, even though they were not the main point of focus for them.) Mainly, because:

1200 The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens.
And actually, even earlier:
600 The first ships of the Númenoreans appear off the coasts.
(...)
c. 1000 Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.
This put together implies that the Númenoreans posed a serious threat to Sauron (by the power they showed by their influence on Middle-Earth, first as teachers, and only later as conquerors) even back then, and they didn't have even permanent settlements!

So:
Would you expect any of these small settlements to be ruled by a "great lord?" More likely you would find there an old colonel serving his term in the colonies and very much looking forward to return home.
It might have been so in many instances, but the idea of a few high-ranked people coming there is not that impossible. The really excessive case was Aldarion, but he was the "top" and there were surely some a bit less important, but still important enough people before him. And, to return to my earlier example, after all, with the conquest of America, the guys who came there were also not always as unimportant, and mainly, they became important simply because of the fact that they were there as the chief representatives of their countries.

And if a "great lord" could be occasionally found in ME, of course he would never settle there for good, taking his wife, children and all, before some really strong fortresses would be built. Great lords have influential families, lots of relations and dependants, they would wish to show themselves at the court in Armenelos occasionally, they would wish to be buried in the family's crypt in Numenor.
That's true. But in the case of somebody who would have joined Sauron (later, and of course not all of them might have done that), he would be possibly willing to trade his family crypt for some realm in M-E... or actually, rather, eventually he would not think about death at all, right...

Therefore Sauron had to be aware that to whatever great lord he may have given a ring, this ring would find its way to Numenor sooner or later. It is not as if the wielder of a ring becomes Sauron's slave immediately - it is a gradual process.( Gandalf: "sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him"). For a long time a future nazgul would lead a normal life and go to Numenor when he wished.
Of course it's a gradual process. However, and that relates also to the former quote, I claim that Sauron would have tried to pick his subjects also based on who's likely not to go away, or at least not for long.

And the distribution of Rings was just a part of the rising darkness, wasn't it? "Rising darkness" is just a figure of speech.. The time coincidence shouldn't be glossed over, I think - the shadow suddenly fell on Numenor no sooner and no later than when Sauron likely distributed the Nine.
(..)
That is certainly true. The rising greed and the lust for domination COULD have arisen quite naturally. If not, it needed but very little prompting. But there was more, like this: A pretty strong statement, isn't it? Do you think it was just like that - out of the blue?
To both of these, I say the same - I think the darkness was something gradual. To the latter, it was certainly not all of the blue: simply, at last the time came when a King said something like that. Surely there were questions even before that running around among the people, like "why are we denied immortality" and such. It just goes around Men all the time. And once again, what I said about Arda Marred. Everything went from good towards evil. At last the time came when a King said something like that aloud. I see nothing weird about that. Look at an analogy - why was Denethor so anti-the return of the King? Faramir said that the Stewards were slowly diminishing, falling from their noble state. I believe it was the same with the Númenoreans. Like I said, long time enough for the decay to finally manifest itself.

And, with the darkness - it depends if you see it as a reason or a consequence. I think it's both, just the description of the process - people turning to evil, evil things stirring, etc. Just like it was before the end of the Third Age: Orcs and Trolls stirring, Saruman betraying etc.

One of the three Numenorean Lords had to be approached by Sauron in disguise directly, I think, and it had to be in ME. Yet for two others there was no such necessity, as the first one was most likely bidden to transmit the Rings to his kin or superiors. Riches and tribute were flowing to Numenor from the colonies. Tat-Telemmaite, for instance, even got his name from his love for Moria-silver. I guess his predecessors also loved costly and beautiful things. What more fitting present than an Elven Ring could there be for a King from one of ME governors? It would have been foolish NOT to use such an opportunity.
Well, this is something that I don't quite relate to. I see you are following your idea, but is it really so probable that a King would turn to a Nazgul? I find it very unlikely, personally. Many reasons were presented here. And surely Sauron would not be as daring to attempt that just as a trial-error method. I mean, if he tried to influence a King, he would see to that he has sixty agents all around him. And it seems outstretched to me already to think that Sauron would give two Rings to some guy, like "deliver it to some of your good friends". Now that's really stupid, in my opinion. The Rings of Power are not pieces of cake. Letting them go straight to Númenor would be enough, the more putting them to hands of somebody else to distribute them. Rings of Power are not the same as revolutionary pamphlets, that you'd just throw them among people and see what happens.

As I said above, I don't think he could find a "Geat Lord" who would remain in ME for good. The Numenorean settlers were most likely simple people who had not enough land in Numenor and desired to enrich themselves.
Or people who have seen the opportunity. And wishing more land to enrich yourself does not mean you do not have enough land in the beginning - quite the contrary, greedy people want just more and more, not considering how much they have. Although you are right that the great lord would probably stay on Númenor and boss around his subordinates to bring more gold from that fantastic land. But even this subordinate might want to gain more independance (which he would reach by staying in M-E. Now that made me thought of the biblical parable from Matthew 21:33 and further - the master who had the vineyard and the servants who keep it, but when the master is far enough, they count on that he is not bothering himself with coming personally and rebel to keep the vineyard for themselves. I believe the circumstances might have been similar in these cases of the Númenoreans. And siding with Sauron would help to get a continuing independance. I think some of the Nazgul were originally good-hearted, however I think even among these Númenoreans there might have been at least one greedy person capable of doing this. Mainly, coming to M-E for exploits makes one prone to greed, and also sort of pre-determines the kind of person who's doing that. Sauron would have certainly picked on somebody like that, if he appeared - and he had enough time to find somebody like that).

As for the "willing noble" that would be improbable - impossible - to find a noble Numenorean willing to join the Enemy: the recently defeated Enemy. What for? Why? As you said yourself, at the time Numenoreans were good people as a rule. Moreover we know that Sauron used the Rings to deceive the future nazgul. It was a hook - not a reward for faithful service.
The answer is above, as you already see. Certainly not all were completely good. And Sauron also did not seem completely evil. He was a good enough trickster to deceive somebody with good talks of power and what good can one achieve by siding with him. He could even pretend good intentions with the Númenoreans. Just imagine what he did with Ar-Pharazon. Or imagine what Saruman offered Gandalf: Sauron was certainly capable of similar speeches. Or what Sauron offered to the Dwarves of Erebor (the Council of Elrond). Enough said. As for "recently defeated", Sauron was by no means defeated. He was driven away from Eriador, but he still held much, much power in the rest of Middle-Earth - while the "rest" was, we cannot forget, bigger than the places that were free! No, Sauron still had enough impressive powers. And one loss at Gwathló, okay, but that was just one setback. One battle can be lost, it's really not that much for the whole war. Sauron seemed far from being "defeated"!

I think the risk here was unavoidable: if he wanted persons of note, "great lords" of noble blood, influential people, he had to risk. Sauron knew how to take necessary risks, like taking the One to Numenor while a prisoner. As for returning to him… I remember how Gollum was drawn to Mordor. He was not yet a wraith, he had already lost the Ring - but he was drawn there all the same. I think the nazgul, once they entered the "transformation phase" were drawn to Sauron much in the same way.
Agreed about Gollum. But it would still be better to draw the Nazgul to Mordor from the coasts than across the Sea. Too far. Too much water (water was always an obstacle for the evil). Too close to the West. Sauron could not know what would happen. Sauron took his Ring to Númenor because a) he was there personally, so he could afford it, b) he had much more power when having it with himself, c) it would be, I am certain, far more risky from his point of view to leave it in M-E than take it with himself. Anyway, after all, nobody ever wanted to willingly part with his Precious. So why should Sauron?

Yet - note the important thing: no Numenorean fortress had fallen into Sauron's hands at the time because its governor became a nazgul - which means that if Sauron had this in mind while distributing the Rings, he had failed. What worked with the Eastern tribes, didn't work with Numenorean colonies, much less with Numenor itself. The only positive political result for Sauron was the darkening of Numenor and rebellion of the Kings against the Valar. Not bad, actually.;)
Depending on how direct was his influence on the darkening of Númenor itself. I don't think, at least in the early days, that he was able to get many of his agents there. Remember, when he came to Númenor personally, he was amazed, and he likely had very little knowledge of what's it exactly looking like around there. Had he had hosts of agents among the Númenoreans already back then, he would also have been able to arrange things better for himself. Yet we hear nothing about that - nothing that upon arriving on Númenor, Sauron would be secretly winking at several unsuspicious people in the crowd.

But, as for overtaking the fortresses because somebody became a Nazgul - we hear nothing about that, but you put it in a rather strong way. Of course nobody became a Nazgul, it's not that a governor would come one morning wearing black cloak and being invisible and saying: "From now on, this fortress belongs to Sauron!" But I am sure there were battles, and some treachery might have been involved; there were so many colonies and everything, and of course not every single battle is recorded! Anyway, that was just a pure speculation. But exploiting somebody's knowledge about Númenor's defenses, that's almost for certain.

But if you deny the connection between the Shadow on Numenor and the distribution of the Rings, then you will have to admit that the Numenorean nazgul brought Sauron NO POLITICAL advantages at all. Three of the Nine Rings he had wasted only to get three seven-foot-tall guys in black cloaks speaking flawless Adunaic, nothing more.:rolleyes:
And brought all these guys could do, or have done during their life in their society (colonies). And most of all, it was humiliating the Númenoreans. Now that is something that Sauron certainly wanted, to get them - because he hated them the most. And it probably helped him to get many of the Nazguls' original friends to his side, get to sorcery etc.

[Galin]

Here goes the fuller version of the confusion, otherwise known as my attempt to make The Line of Elros (LE) work with Tolkien-published text (the Appendices). As I say I cannot, of course, keep all of the matter of LE or related texts in the mix, but on the other hand so far I don't think I have added any impossible alterations (this remains to be seen starting with the matter of possible mistakes in math). The numbers in parenthesis are the numbers in LE (for comparison). They are often naturally variant, but sometimes are the same.

Tar Elendil b. 350 - d. 751, surrendered sceptre 740, married late in life (agrees with LE). When age 198 (171) Silmarien was born in 548 (521), and 2 years later (22 years later) when age 200 (193) Tar-Meneldur was born in 550 (543). Tar-Meneldur received the sceptre at age 190 (197) ruling 143 years (143 years) from 740 - 883. He gave up rule 59 years (59 years) before his death in 942 (942) living 392 years (399 years). When age 150 (157) Tar-Aldarion was born in 1700 (1700). Dates for Tar-Aldarion agree with LE, and Tar-Ancalime becoming Queen in 1075 agrees with Appendix B. With the next set of alterations I will not note every difference from LE but will usually include four details: length of life, length of rule, at what age a ruler took the sceptre, and at what age a given ruler had a child.

Tar-Surion b. 1174 - d. 1574, surrendered sceptre 1556, ruled 162 years (all as in LE). When age 106 (146) Tar-Telperien was born in 1280. She was 276 (236) when she took the sceptre in 1556, ruling 139 years (175 years) until her death in 1691. She lived 411 years (411) and had no heir.

Isilmo was younger than his sister and son of Tar-Surion. Tolkien does not say when he was born and I use this gap to make him significantly younger (in order to adjust for considerations in Appendix B). He then was born 118 years after his sister -- perhaps because, just before this time, Tar-Surion has come to know or accept that his daughter is truly set on not marrying, and thus she would have no heir. Isilmo was born in 1398 (Tar-Surion would be 224), and himself was age 198 when he had Tar-Minastir in 1596. This king and the next will have notably significant variances compared to LE.

Tar-Minastir b. 1596 - d. 2001, at age 95 (257) he took up rule in 1691 (giving Isilmo one year for passing the sceptre would not alter things much in any case), ruling 306 years (138 years) until 1997. He lived 405 years (399) and when age 260 (160) he had a son Tar-Ciryatan. In this way Minastir is king before aid to Middle-earth is sent (Appendix B), but the question arises as to why he would wait so long to have a child. I think we can introduce an imagined accidental death of a first child to help explain this, as long as this sort of thing is not overused. Tar-Minastir loved the Elves, but envied them. He can be said to be 'like Elros' in that he takes the sceptre young and has a notably long rule. With respect to his envious connection however, the first signs of the shadow fall in his time (Appendix A) and perhaps his first son dies by accident, which gets him thinking more about death in general and stirs this envy a bit (son falls from the Tower? possibly too much). Anyway, at age 260 he has a (second) son and the imagined heir that died could have been around 93 or so, not a child. This would make the first child born when Tar-Minastir was 165 (close to the same age LE has him having Tar-Ciryatan).

Tar-Ciryatan b. 1856 - d. 2257, living 401 years (401). At age 141 (235) he received the sceptre in 1997 and ruled 254 years (160) until 2251. When age 155 (166) had a son Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ciryatan must surrender the sceptre in 2251 in order to agree with Appendix B. '2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins.' As to his name I will adopt the idea that he built more opulent vessels for himself and those that served him. From Tar-Atanamir to Ar-Adunakhor I'll be altering the dates so that when Ar-Adunakhor is reached -- without using Tar-Ardamin, as he does not appear in the list of rulers as published by JRRT -- the dates and details of LE can again serve. Thus the alterations must swing back to LE by the time of Tar-Calmacil, skipping Tar-Ardamin to Ar-Adunakhor.

Tar-Atanamir b. 2011 - d. 2432, living 421 years (421). At age 240 (229) received the sceptre in 2251 ruling 181 years (192). When age 186 (186) had Tar-Ancalimon b. 2197 - d. 2557, living 360 years (400). At age 235 (235) received the sceptre in 2432 ruling 125 years (165). When age 120 (150) had Tar-Telemmaite b. 2317 - d. 2668, living 351 years (390). At age 240 (250) received the sceptre in 2557 ruling 111 years (140). At age 110 (141) had Tar-Vanimelde b. 2427 - d. 2753, living 326 years (360). At age 241 (249) received sceptre in 2668 ruling 85 years (111). At age 120 (129) had Tar-Alcarin b. 2547 - d. 2828, living 281 years (331). At age 206 (231) received sceptre in 2753 ruling 75 years (100). At age 84 (110) had Tar-Calmacil.

We also have the matter of Tar-Anducal withholding the rule from Tar-Alcarin for 20 years, thus the numbers above reflect rightful rule. Actual rule then would be 55 (80). Tar-Calmacil b. 2631 - d. 2899, living 268 years (309). At age 197 (221) received the sceptre in 2828 ruling 71 years (88). At age 78 had Ar-Adunakhor (at age 102 had Tar-Ardamin). Ar-Adunakhor b. 2709 - d. 2962. He received the sceptre in 2899 - 2962, ruled 63 years and so on, as in The Line of Elros.

I realize that on the way from Atanamir to Ar-Adunakhor some things have been shortened by comparison to LE (a greater waning let's say), but that seems acceptable enough if it doesn't conflict with other things. I didn't re-check the numbers for some of these rulers, and there could be errors just from copying my notes incorrectly. I would be surprised to find no errors here, but I've had enough math for today.

And yes I know no one really cares at this point, if anyone ever did that is ;)

[Gordis]

Sorry again - to check all this needs a lot of work - I won't be able to before April.:)

[Gordis]

Tar Elendil b. 350 - d. 751, surrendered sceptre 740, married late in life (agrees with LE). When age 198 (171) Silmarien was born in 548 (521), and 2 years later (22 years later) when age 200 (193) Tar-Meneldur was born in 550 (543). Tar-Meneldur received the sceptre at age 190 (197) ruling 143 years (143 years) from 740 - 883. He gave up rule 59 years (59 years) before his death in 942 (942) living 392 years (399 years). When age 150 (157) Tar-Aldarion was born in 1700 (1700).

Here my own list deviates: I have Tar-M born in 560 (to keep usual 12 years between siblings). Elendil would be 210 at the time, but it is OK, as Meneldur was not his first child. Isuldur, for example, was 221 at Valandil's birth. He surrendered the scepter in 883 as in LE and died in 959 (399 years). There is need, IMO, to shorten his life inexplicably -all the same he surrendered the scepter long before his time. Tar-Aldarion was born when Meneldur was 140 (157) in 1700.
This said, your dates are quite OK all the same.


Tar-Surion b. 1174 - d. 1574, surrendered sceptre 1556, ruled 162 years (all as in LE). When age 106 (146) Tar-Telperien was born in 1280. She was 276 (236) when she took the sceptre in 1556, ruling 139 years (175 years) until her death in 1691. She lived 411 years (411) and had no heir.
Yes, I have the same for Telperien.


Isilmo was younger than his sister and son of Tar-Surion. Tolkien does not say when he was born and I use this gap to make him significantly younger (in order to adjust for considerations in Appendix B). He then was born 118 years after his sister -- perhaps because, just before this time, Tar-Surion has come to know or accept that his daughter is truly set on not marrying, and thus she would have no heir. Isilmo was born in 1398 (Tar-Surion would be 224) Quite sound reasoning to have another child. His Queen must still have been capable of child-bearing at about 150+, given that Isildur's wife had children in 3299, 3339, 2379 and 3430 - 131 year between siblings and that during the time when the life span had dwindled. So OK - he could even be younger than that.


Tar-Minastir b. 1596 - d. 2001, at age 95 (257) he took up rule in 1691 (giving Isilmo one year for passing the sceptre would not alter things much in any case), ruling 306 years (138 years) until 1997. He lived 405 years (399) and when age 260 (160) he had a son Tar-Ciryatan. In this way Minastir is king before aid to Middle-earth is sent (Appendix B), but the question arises as to why he would wait so long to have a child. I think we can introduce an imagined accidental death of a first child to help explain this, as long as this sort of thing is not overused. Tar-Minastir loved the Elves, but envied them. He can be said to be 'like Elros' in that he takes the sceptre young and has a notably long rule. With respect to his envious connection however, the first signs of the shadow fall in his time (Appendix A) and perhaps his first son dies by accident, which gets him thinking more about death in general and stirs this envy a bit (son falls from the Tower? possibly too much). I can't see why the accident with his first son would make him envious of the Eldar - the Eldar are as prone to accidental death as Men.

Anyway, at age 260 he has a (second) son and the imagined heir that died could have been around 93 or so, not a child. This would make the first child born when Tar-Minastir was 165 (close to the same age LE has him having Tar-Ciryatan). Tar-Ciryatan b. 1856 - d. 2257, living 401 years (401). At age 141 (235) he received the sceptre in 1997 and ruled 254 years (160) until 2251. When age 155 (166) had a son Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ciryatan must surrender the sceptre in 2251 in order to agree with Appendix B. '2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins.' As to his name I will adopt the idea that he built more opulent vessels for himself and those that served him. OK, quite ingenious.

So you have "closed the gap" firstly making Isilmo much younger than Telperien and then introducing a first son of Tar-Minastir who died quite young. Very interesting.

[Galin]

Quite sound reasoning to have another child. His Queen must still have been capable of child-bearing at about 150+, given that Isildur's wife had children in 3299, 3339, 2379 and 3430 - 131 year between siblings and that during the time when the life span had dwindled. So OK - he could even be younger than that.

I was hoping that one would fly ;)

I can't see why the accident with his first son would make him envious of the Eldar - the Eldar are as prone to accidental death as Men.

That's a bit thin I admit -- the idea was that it gets him thinking about death 'in general' to possibly stir an already existing envy, but yes Elves could die by accident for example, or in war of course. This could be dropped in any case, as well as the imagined son's accident being a fall from the tower, both of which could be pushing things a bit.

So you have "closed the gap" firstly making Isilmo much younger than Telperien and then introducing a first son of Tar-Minastir who died quite young. Very interesting.

Yes that's basically it. Isilmo was key there. Although I had to do more manipulation to also bring the dates back to LE by the time of Ar-Adunakhor of course.

[Gordis]

Yes that's basically it. Isilmo was key there.

So, why didn't Tar-Telperien leave the sceptre to her much younger brother, who would be the rightful Heir and only 299 in 1691? ;):p

[Galin]

The further tale of Isilmo is very hazy, as he took a voyage one year and never returned.

;)

[Gordis]

The further tale of Isilmo is very hazy, as he took a voyage one year and never returned.

;)

Yea, some say he got the Ring and settled in Barad-Dur. :p
That is exactly what is told in Isilmo theory by Mark Crispin:
HERE (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/915fa646781c3399/a1b2c299d319cb89?q=isilmo&rnum=2&hl=en#a1b2c299d319cb89)

Hmm... Isilmo and his grandson both accidentally die or disappear. There must be something at work!;)