Narya - a gift for Annatar?

[Gordis]

I have had some new ideas about the Three which I would like to share.

For whom were the Three made? Let us try to have a closer look at the happenings in Eregion around SA 1500.

Celebrimbor’s ancestry and background
Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Feanor was born in Valinor. In HOME 12 "Of Dwarves and Men", there is a following note: It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Fëanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin)... But Curufin, dearest to his father and chief inheritor of his father's skills, was wedded, and had a son who came with him into exile, though his wife (unnamed) did not. […] During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he had grown to love Finrod and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel. - cf: HoME Vol XII, pp. 317-318

So, firstly, Celebrimbor was a Calaquende, with great power both in "the Seen and the Unseen." Secondly, it is likely that Celebrimbor left Valinor as already a full-grown Elf (otherwise I guess he would have had no choice but to remain behind with his mother). Therefore it is also likely that he learned his craft directly from his grandfather Feanor, maybe he even knew Aule - thus he indeed could have some rare skills that even Sauron lacked.

Then, there is the question of the Oath. If Celebrimbor were a full-grown Elf at the time of the rebellion, then he could have taken the Oath along with his father. Did he or did he not? It may be very important - as the Oath was a terrible one. If he did take the Oath, but broke it later in Nargothrond, then "the Everlasting Darkness" was awaiting him after death - something that may be worse than even Feanor's imprisonment in Mandos. I believe in this case Celebrimbor was even more likely to do everything to prevent fading and the necessity to return to Valinor.

The Chronolgy (LOTR App.B ; Unfinished Tales: History of Galadriel and Celeborn)

1200. Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. (App B)
between 1350 and 1400. So great became [Annatar's] hold on the MÃ*rdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand. (UT)
c. 1500 The Elven smiths having been instructed by Sauron reach the height of their power and begin the forging of the Rings of Power (App. B)
c. 1500 Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the Mirdain had begun making the Rings of Power. (UT)
c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion (App.B)
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One in Orodruin. Celbrimbor perceives his designs.(App.B)
c 1600-1693 During this time Celebrimbor seeks counsel of Galadriel regarding the Rings of Power. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, ’but they failed to find the strength’. Galadriel advises that the Three be hidden outside Eregion, and receives Nenya.(UT)
1693 War of the Elves and Sauron. the Three are hidden ( Narya and Vilya are sent to Gil-Galad in Lindon). (App. B; UT)
1697 Sauron tortures Celebrimbor and then orders his death. Sauron regains the Nine and the "lesser’ rings, and learns where the Seven are, (from Celebrimbor under torment)but not the Three. (App.B.; UT)

So, Galadriel had departed Eregion long before Celebrimbor and Annatar started on the Great Rings, but likely while they were forging the Lesser ones. The Nine and the Seven were made shortly before 1500; the Three were made in 1500-1590.

I believe the question of major importance (and one left entirely to speculation) is why Annatar had departed from Eregion in 1500. It was not because of Galadriel, who was long gone. In their conflict of 1350-1400 Sauron had been the victor, and Celebrimbor was on his side against the woman he secretly loved.


So, was there some quarrel with Celebrimbor in 1500? Then Annatar could have left in anger and Celebrimbor could start making the Three in secret and in defiance of his former collaborator. But then why would Celebrimbor feel so hurt and betrayed in 1600? I have a gut feeling that back in 1500 they had parted on friendly terms- that would make Annatar's betrayal much more dramatic and painful.

More likely, IMO, by 1500, Sauron grew impatient to finish the long-drawn project and start working on his own creation - the One Ring. In this case, he could simply tell Celebrimbor: "Well, you finish here on your own, old friend, now you have skills enough, and I have other very important matters to attend to".

Why would Sauron be opposed to more Rings? After all, ALL of them would be bound to the One. More rings simply meant more enslaved Elves. Under the One, the wielders of the Three would have been manipulated and corrupted regardless of the properties of their Rings. OK, there was no direct "Sauron's taint" in the Three. But it only became important when the Three were wielded in the absence of the One. And, no doubt, back in the Second Age, Sauron never imagined losing the Ruling Ring.

But why didn't the Three confer invisibility? What was Celebrimbor's goal in making the Three ALONE? - Here is my answer - or my speculation, if you like.

The Three, unlike the 7 and 9, were tailor-made for specific persons, neither of whom needed a Ring to get access into the Spirit World. They already had this access, by virtue of their very nature.

One of the Three - and likely the strongest of them, Vilya, was meant for Celebrimbor himself, a Calaquende Elf. I believe he was not disinterested enough not to make the strongest ring for himself.

The other - Nenya, was likely from the very start made for Galadriel, another Calaquende. Though not the strongest of the Three, it is sometimes called "The Chief of the Three". I think Nenya was indeed the summit of Celebrimbor's craft: for his lady-love he made the most beautiful ring using not gold, sullied by Morgoth, but pure Mithril and adorned it by the most precious of stones, adamant - pure white, hard and indomitable - much like Galadriel herself.

Suppose (hypothetically) that the Three were made by Annatar and Celebrimbor together: would Annatar ever agree to give the best Ring to Galadriel? (Perhaps he would, because it was a Trojan horse sort of gift, but Celebrimbor had no means of knowing it.) He knew there was no love lost between the two, so Annatar could well oppose to giving a ring to Galadriel. Now when Celebrimbor made the Ring all alone, he could present it to anyone he chose, including Galadriel. Also (and it is quite important) Celebrimbor wanted it to be only his gift, - his personal gift for the lady he loved and who he had offended. It was a peace offering as well.

And here we come to an interesting question: for whom was the third of the Three - Narya- made? I think Celebrimbor may have made Narya for his dear friend Annatar, the one who had inspired the whole project, and again the one who needed no invisibility option for an access to the Spirit World. Wouldn't it be fitting if Celebrimbor expressed his gratitude by presenting his friend with the Ring of his own craftsmanship? And isn't the Ruby, the stone of Fire, fitting for the former pupil of Aule, the one who knew how to kindle hearts and lead others to greatest achievements? (Also perhaps there was something in this Ring that made it more suitable for a Maia. Just this consideration may have prompted Cirdan to give it to one of the Istari).

I think by 1600 Celebrimbor was quite pleased with himself. He hoped Annatar would return, recieve his gift and be impressed and proud of his pupil. He hoped Galadriel would receive her gift and forgive him and have to admit that her misgivings about Annatar had been groundless.
And then they would all live happily ever after in peace and friendship in the healed world. But lo, it was not to be. Imagine Celebrimbor's shock, when instead he heard "Ash nazg durbatulûk" and knew himself betrayed by his dearest friend Annatar…

[Earniel]

Interesting theory! (How do you always come up with them, Gordis?) I have a few thoughts on the mater, but I'm going to reread a few things first before I comment.

[Valandil]

Interesting theory! (How do you always come up with them, Gordis?) I have a few thoughts on the mater, but I'm going to reread a few things first before I comment.

Ditto... on all points. :)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I have more questions than answers/speculations here.

Is the idea of Celebrimbor's crush on Galadriel supported or is that part of the theory, too?

Likewise, is there any evidence of Celebrimbor's feelings toward Annatar?

Why couldn't the third ring be simply intended for the High King of the Noldor?

Regarding the oath, is there anything to show that anyone but Feanor and his sons took the oath? And seeing how all the Noldor were ensnared by the oath, is it really necessary for Celebrimbor to have taken it to be sufficiently motivated to make his rings?

[Gordis]

I have more questions than answers/speculations here.

Is the idea of Celebrimbor's crush on Galadriel supported or is that part of the theory, too?
It is no mere speculation. See the quote from in UT "The Elessar"
The other tale runs so: that long ago, ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion, Galadriel came there, and she said to Celebrimbor, the chief of the Elven-smiths: "I am grieved in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade that I have loved, so that the land of my dwelling is filled with regret that no Spring can redress." [...]
"That is its fate, I deem," said Celebrimbor. "But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened." [...]Therefore he took thought, and began a long delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only).

Likewise, is there any evidence of Celebrimbor's feelings toward Annatar?
Well, nothing gay there.:D But the fact is that they were friends and collaborators, even accomplices against the rule of Galadrel and Celeborn.
Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. 8 So great became his hold on the MÃ*rdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age.[...]
Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be
Despite the fact that Celeborn loved Glad, he sided with his friend against her (which is rather rare if you think on it - much more often love breaks male friendship, not the other way round).

Why couldn't the third ring be simply intended for the High King of the Noldor?
At that time Celebrimbor had quarelled with Gil-Galad. The King repeatedly warned him against Annatar, as did Galadriel, then Celebrimbr revolted against Celeborn and Galadriel, who nagged him too much. I doubt he would spare one of the Three for GG. It was Galadriel's advice (after Celebrimbor learned of Annatar's betrayal) to entrust two of the Rings to the King. I am sure Celebrimbor had no such intentions originally.
And then note: Gil-Galad was not a Calaquende. A Ring made for him (or for Elrond, or for Cirdan)- would have conferred invisibility, I believe.

Regarding the oath, is there anything to show that anyone but Feanor and his sons took the oath? And seeing how all the Noldor were ensnared by the oath, is it really necessary for Celebrimbor to have taken it to be sufficiently motivated to make his rings?
I am not sure about that. I believe Celebrimbor "appeared" later, after the Oath story in Silm had already been written. But I am no expert on Feanorean Oaths.:p

[CAB]

Another interesting idea, Gordis. Not surprising, a rather large proportion of the interesting ideas on Entmoot come from you. :)

1697 Sauron tortures Celebrimbor and then orders his death. Sauron regains the Nine and the "lesser’ rings, and learns where the Seven are, (from Celebrimbor under torment)but not the Three. (App.B.; UT)

I was wondering, maybe Celebrimbor refused to speak to Sauron about the Three more to protect the woman he loved than to save the rings themselves.




Regarding the oath, is there anything to show that anyone but Feanor and his sons took the oath? And seeing how all the Noldor were ensnared by the oath, is it really necessary for Celebrimbor to have taken it to be sufficiently motivated to make his rings?
I fully agree (if you can agree with a question.) The oath taking was one of the major events of the First Age. Certainly if Celebrimbor had taken the oath, it would have been mentioned. Also, I seem to remember (forgive me for not quoting, my Tolkien books are all packed up) that the power of the oath ended with Maedhros's death and Maglor's umm...essentially renouncing it. This wouldn't be the case if an oath-taker still lived. Gordis, I must admit I am confused as to why you think the point is important. We know Celebrimbor made the rings, so why would his having extra motivation matter?




(Also perhaps there was something in this Ring that made it more suitable for a Maia. Just this consideration may have prompted Cirdan to give it to one of the Istari).

Regarding Narya being especially suited for a Maia, more evidence may be the fact that Cirdan never used it (though I always thought this was due to his living on the "now exiting Middle Earth" point. It would almost seem unkind to make the Havens too beautiful).



While reading this thread, I had a thought about the differences between the Nine and Seven. Why is it that the Seven seem to have already been passed out by the time of Sauron's return, while the Nine were not. Perhaps the Seven were intended for and received by Elves who were both nearby and in possession of knowledge of the "ring project". To me, this points to the other members of the Mirdain. More evidence might be that the Dwarves, being craftsmen like the Mirdain, were later the ones to be given the Seven rings. I can't remember the sequence of events, but obviously this idea doesn't work if Sauron captured or killed the other Mirdain before Celebrimbor.

[Gordis]

Another interesting idea, Gordis. Not surprising, a rather large proportion of the interesting ideas on Entmoot come from you. :)
Thank you, CAB. And thank you Val and Earniel as well! :)

I was wondering, maybe Celebrimbor refused to speak to Sauron about the Three more to protect the woman he loved than to save the rings themselves.
I always thought it was the case. Under torture Celebrimbor revealed who had the Seven - and the Elves were all hunted down and most likely killed. He didn't want to do the same to Galadriel, who was right on the other side of the Mountains, Mordor-side. Gil-Galad was more protected in Mithlond.

The oath taking was one of the major events of the First Age. Certainly if Celebrimbor had taken the oath, it would have been mentioned. Also, I seem to remember (forgive me for not quoting, my Tolkien books are all packed up) that the power of the oath ended with Maedhros's death and Maglor's umm...essentially renouncing it. This wouldn't be the case if an oath-taker still lived. Gordis, I must admit I am confused as to why you think the point is important. We know Celebrimbor made the rings, so why would his having extra motivation matter?Maybe not very important...especially considering that, if he swore the Oath, he must have renounced it in Nargothrond. But he must have been guilty of Alqualonde slaying anyway, as all the host of Feanor.

Simply I have an impression that Celebrimbor was always very reluctant to leave for Valinor. In the situation Celebrimbor found himself in 1600 - between the hammer and anvil - it would have been a very smart move to take a ship for the Paradise Island, before his buddy Annatar came for him.

Regarding Narya being especially suited for a Maia, more evidence may be the fact that Cirdan never used it (though I always thought this was due to his living on the "now exiting Middle Earth" point. It would almost seem unkind to make the Havens too beautiful).
Yes that is right - nobody used this Ring before Gandalf, it seems. Perhaps Cirdan couldn't use it to full potential or even at all? The Havens were not really a way-station, it had a population leaving there. Why not tweak time for them?

While reading this thread, I had a thought about the differences between the Nine and Seven. Why is it that the Seven seem to have already been passed out by the time of Sauron's return, while the Nine were not.
We only know (from UT) that in 1600 all the Elves took off the Rings and in 1697 the Nine were found in a strongbox in the House of the Mirdain, while the Seven were found in some Elves's pocketses.;) Maybe all the Rings have been distributed prior to 1600, but then, after the One had been revealed, the Nine owners returned their rings to the house of the Mirdain, while the Seven owners loved theirs so dearly that couldn't part with them?

Perhaps the Seven were intended for and received by Elves who were both nearby and in possession of knowledge of the "ring project". To me, this points to the other members of the Mirdain. More evidence might be that the Dwarves, being craftsmen like the Mirdain, were later the ones to be given the Seven rings. I can't remember the sequence of events, but obviously this idea doesn't work if Sauron captured or killed the other Mirdain before Celebrimbor.
I am sure the Seven and the Nine were meant to be given (and likely were given) to other Mirdain involved in the project.
Look at it realistically. Not only Celebrimbor, but other elven-smiths worked hard on this project for several hundred years, contributing their skills, and likely their power and very souls. Wouldn't they want some recompense? It is only fair if each would get a Ring.

Same reasoning applies to Annatar. Sure, he appeared generous and disinterested, but hardly to the point of getting nothing at all himself! Every great master feels quite possessive of his masterpieces. The Ring-project was mainly Celebrimbor-Annatar's joint venture - so it would only be fair if each of them got one of the strongest rings each. Being a Maia doesn't mean your skills and power couldn't be heightened by one of the Three (Gandalf surely was made stronger by wielding Narya).

As to Gil-Galad, Celeborn, Cirdan etc., they took no part in the project, actually they were vehemently opposed to it. Why would they be supposed to get Rings - before Celebrimbor became a broken man and they were unfortunately proven to be correct? Galadriel got a Ring only because of Celebrimbor's feelings for her, not for any other reason.

[CAB]

Simply I have an impression that Celebrimbor was always very reluctant to leave for Valinor. In the situation Celebrimbor found himself in 1600 - between the hammer and anvil - it would have been a very smart move to take a ship for the Paradise Island, before his buddy Annatar came for him.

Good point that it would have made sense for Celebrimbor to run. His guilt over his First Age actions certainly may have been a factor in his decision to remain in Middle Earth, but I think there was something more important holding him back - acceptance of responsibility for what he had created combined with a great deal of courage. He couldn't destroy the rings or give them away, so he hopelessly guarded them with his life.

On a side note, I have to wonder why he couldn't have taken the rings to Valinor. This question has been discussed before regarding the One Ring at the time of the Lord of the Rings. Maybe Elrond and Gandalf knew then that the Valar wouldn't accept the Ring due to events that happened or questions that were asked during the first ring war.


The Havens were not really a way-station, it had a population leaving there. Why not tweak time for them?

I agree. The local population shouldn't have been denied the benefits of the ring to make things a little easier for those passing through.


We only know (from UT) that in 1600 all the Elves took off the Rings and in 1697 the Nine were found in a strongbox in the House of the Mirdain, while the Seven were found in some Elves's pocketses.;) Maybe all the Rings have been distributed prior to 1600, but then, after the One had been revealed, the Nine owners returned their rings to the house of the Mirdain, while the Seven owners loved theirs so dearly that couldn't part with them?

Hmm…I wonder if there were nine people strong enough to give up the rings. Galadriel wasn't and neither were the holders of the seven, though Celebrimbor obviously was. To me it seems more likely that the nine hadn't yet been distributed.


I am sure the Seven and the Nine were meant to be given (and likely were given) to other Mirdain involved in the project.
Look at it realistically. Not only Celebrimbor, but other elven-smiths worked hard on this project for several hundred years, contributing their skills, and likely their power and very souls. Wouldn't they want some recompense? It is only fair if each would get a Ring.

Same reasoning applies to Annatar. Sure, he appeared generous and disinterested, but hardly to the point of getting nothing at all himself! Every great master feels quite possessive of his masterpieces. The Ring-project was mainly Celebrimbor-Annatar's joint venture - so it would only be fair if each of them got one of the strongest rings each. Being a Maia doesn't mean your skills and power couldn't be heightened by one of the Three (Gandalf surely was made stronger by wielding Narya).

As to Gil-Galad, Celeborn, Cirdan etc., they took no part in the project, actually they were vehemently opposed to it. Why would they be supposed to get Rings - before Celebrimbor became a broken man and they were unfortunately proven to be correct? Galadriel got a Ring only because of Celebrimbor's feelings for her, not for any other reason.
Here I must disagree. Not that each of the Mirdain got a ring. In fact, I think we can guess how many Mirdain there were: eight - Celebrimbor and the holders of the seven. Going back to my earlier post, this helps explain why the nine were still in Eregion since those in the know would have received their rings first. Also there are the similarities between the Mirdain and the later holders of the seven rings.

Annatar must have had a big influence on who was to receive a ring. After all, this was really his project. I can't think that he wanted all this potential power clustered in one area when there was no reason it couldn't have been spread out.

Each of the Mirdain had to get a ring for the reasons you have given. It couldn't be avoided. But Annatar surely wanted other powerful Elves to get rings also. I have no doubt that Galadriel and Gil-Galad were meant to receive rings (maybe not the special rings they ended up with, but certainly one of the rings of power). If not, then the ring project was being squandered before it even got started. I know there were problems between Annatar and these two Elves, but it would fit with the scam Annatar was running on Celebrimbor if he wanted them to get rings anyway. Annatar would seem the more generous and morally superior person.

Look at how Sauron passed out the rings later on. As powerful as Numenor was at this time, especially compared to other Men, they only got three of the nine. Each of the seven seems to have gone to a different Dwarf house. I would guess that according to the original plan, since the Mirdain had to be satisfied, Sauron intended to use each of the nine to the fullest and would have had them passed out accordingly.

[Gordis]

On a side note, I have to wonder why he couldn't have taken the rings to Valinor. This question has been discussed before regarding the One Ring at the time of the Lord of the Rings. Maybe Elrond and Gandalf knew then that the Valar wouldn't accept the Ring due to events that happened or questions that were asked during the first ring war.
Interesting observation. During the hundred years between 1600 and 1697, Celebrimbor and al. likely asked permission to come to Valinor with the Rings. At the time Valinor was not as inaccessible as in the Third Age - there was an easy way to send a message via Numenor. Elves from Eressea were visiting Numenor a lot and the Numenoreans were coming to ME regularly. But the Mirdain must have got a negative answer. No wonder - they were indeed guilty as hell in all this debacle with Annatar.

Hmm…I wonder if there were nine people strong enough to give up the rings. Galadriel wasn't and neither were the holders of the seven, though Celebrimbor obviously was. To me it seems more likely that the nine hadn't yet been distributed. Yes, I believe you are right. By 1697 the Nine seemed not to be distributed - yet.

Here I must disagree. Not that each of the Mirdain got a ring. In fact, I think we can guess how many Mirdain there were: eight - Celebrimbor and the holders of the seven.
Or perhaps there were seven smiths: Celebrimbor + 6 others. (If we believe this Dwarven story that Celebrimbor gave the first of the Seven to Durin himself). Maybe Celebrimbor had originally owned one of the Seven and used it while crafting the Three, but later took Vilya and surrendered his old ring to the Dwarf.

Going back to my earlier post, this helps explain why the nine were still in Eregion since those in the know would have received their rings first. Also there are the similarities between the Mirdain and the later holders of the seven rings.
Likely the Nine and the Seven had other properties, in addition to "preservation" and "enhancement of the wielder's powers". In those additional properties the sets of rings likely differed: `
Elrond: The Three were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. -LOTR
Well, so it seems that some other rings were made "as weapons of war" and "instruments of domination" - and likely it were the Nine. At the times of peace, in the sheltered Eregion, nobody really needed such powers - so they remained undistributed.

The Seven, it looks like, helped to hoard wealth - but it was not by robbing neighbors that the Dwarven hoards have been later accumulated, it was by working hard, mining gold and gems, producing great masterpieces, and selling their works with profit. So, the Seven must have been helpful in mining and prospecting, metal-craft, jewelry craft etc. - exactly what both the Dwarves and the Mirdain needed. No wonder the Seven had been distributed straight away and never surrendered willingly.

Annatar must have had a big influence on who was to receive a ring. After all, this was really his project. I can't think that he wanted all this potential power clustered in one area when there was no reason it couldn't have been spread out. Each of the Mirdain had to get a ring for the reasons you have given. It couldn't be avoided. But Annatar surely wanted other powerful Elves to get rings also. I have no doubt that Galadriel and Gil-Galad were meant to receive rings (maybe not the special rings they ended up with, but certainly one of the rings of power). If not, then the ring project was being squandered before it even got started. I know there were problems between Annatar and these two Elves, but it would fit with the scam Annatar was running on Celebrimbor if he wanted them to get rings anyway. Annatar would seem the more generous and morally superior person.
Of course, but it is one thing what Celebrimbor wanted and another thing what Annatar wanted (who knew that the Rings were nothing but a Trojan horse sort of things). Likely Celebrimbor was more in favor of hoarding, while Annatar was for distributing. We only know that by 1600, not a single Ring left Eregion, which is consistent with the Mirdain's policy of secrecy. Maybe the collaborators were planning to distribute some Rings later (like send one of the Nine to Gil-Galad) - but it is not sure that by 1500 they have already agreed upon who would get which Ring. Likely not, as the Three were not even made.

[CAB]

Elrond: The Three were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. -LOTR

I have had a problem with this quote for a while now. Does it make sense that any of the rings (aside from the One) were originally intended to be used as weapons or for gathering wealth? At this point evil (at least large scale evil) was supposed to be a thing of the past. Annatar spoke of making Middle Earth beautiful. You don't do that with weapons, especially when there are no strong enemies to defend against. As for the "hoarded wealth", well I suppose it depends on who you ask, but I personally don't think it fits with the idea of making Middle Earth more beautiful. (Though, as you suggest, the Mirdain might disagree. And it is very likely that Annatar used greed as a lure for the Mirdain. I am sure he understood greed quite well). I have to think Elrond was either referring to misconceptions about the powers of the rings or referring to the nine and seven after Sauron had "perverted" them. My guess is that, minor differences aside (such as the seven likely being especially suited for craftsmen) the thing that really separated the different "classes" of rings of power before Sauron recovered them was potency. The three were much stronger than the rest.

[Gordis]

I have had a problem with this quote for a while now. Does it make sense that any of the rings (aside from the One) were originally intended to be used as weapons or for gathering wealth? At this point evil (at least large scale evil) was supposed to be a thing of the past. Annatar spoke of making Middle Earth beautiful. You don't do that with weapons, especially when there are no strong enemies to defend against.
Ha - you forget about the terrible evil Sauron who was supposed to have a hideout somewhere in the East.:D Gil-Galad had asked Numenoreans for help already about 600 years before the Great Rings were made (UT Aldarion and Erendis). The threat was always there - only the naive Mirdain had no idea how very close.

As for the "hoarded wealth", well I suppose it depends on who you ask, but I personally don't think it fits with the idea of making Middle Earth more beautiful. (Though, as you suggest, the Mirdain might disagree. And it is very likely that Annatar used greed as a lure for the Mirdain. I am sure he understood greed quite well).
Any ring that helps in mining gold and gems, helps in making beautiful jewelry is bound to increase the wealth of its owner, though it was not its direct purpose. I don't think the Mirdain were greedy - not in the same way as Dwarves - but still they were first and foremost craftsmen. Any break-through in lore and technology connected to their craft would lure them.

I have to think Elrond was either referring to misconceptions about the powers of the rings or referring to the nine and seven after Sauron had "perverted" them. Yes, Elrond was answering Gloin's question and undoubtedly referred to the use the Seven and Nine were put to in the Third Age.
My guess is that, minor differences aside (such as the Seven likely being especially suited for craftsmen) the thing that really separated the different "classes" of rings of power before Sauron recovered them was potency. The Three were much stronger than the rest. Yes, and the Seven were stronger than the Nine. Their were also lesser Rings - weaker tools of preservation, but all of them conferring invisibility.

I really think there were differences in the properties of the ring sets, aside from the level of Power. For instance, I don't think the Seven were much useful for war. All the Dwarven hoards had been plundered. Barlog in Moria killed one ring-wielder after another. And many of them must have perished in wars with orcs. The nine Men-Wraiths, in contrast, showed excellent survival rate in their long and dangerous lives. Perhaps the Nine rings were made to protect their owners against wounds (all blades perish...).

[CAB]

Ha - you forget about the terrible evil Sauron who was supposed to have a hideout somewhere in the East.:D Gil-Galad had asked Numenoreans for help already about 600 years before the Great Rings were made (UT Aldarion and Erendis). The threat was always there - only the naive Mirdain had no idea how very close.

Yeah, I did forget about that. :o Even so, I don't think the nine or seven were originally intended (at least by the Mirdain) to be used as weapons. It just doesn't fit with what Annatar was telling them. Consider how he reacted to Galadriel. I think warfare is the last thing that Annatar would have spoken of.

I suppose if Annatar could have added some martial type power to the rings without the Mirdain's knowledge, he may have done so. That may have worked towards his ultimate purpose with the rings.


I really think there were differences in the properties of the ring sets, aside from the level of Power. For instance, I don't think the Seven were much useful for war. All the Dwarven hoards had been plundered. Barlog in Moria killed one ring-wielder after another. And many of them must have perished in wars with orcs. The nine Men-Wraiths, in contrast, showed excellent survival rate in their long and dangerous lives. Perhaps the Nine rings were made to protect their owners against wounds (all blades perish...).
Well, I don't think the men who became the Nazgul had a Balrog and dragons gunning for them. This puts the Dwarf ring-holders at quite a disadvantage survival rate-wise. :D

You are speaking here about the powers of the rings after Saruon had recovered them, changed them to better suit his purposes, and distributed them. So even though the nine rings, for instance, caused blades to shatter on their holders in the Third Age, that doesn't at all mean that this power was originally built into the rings.

I don't doubt that the powers of the rings were very similar both before and after Sauron recovered them in the Second Age, but there were differences too.

[Gordis]

Consider how he reacted to Galadriel.
Could you, please, clarify - I didn't get it, sorry:o

Yeah, I did forget about that. :o Even so, I don't think the nine or seven were originally intended (at least by the Mirdain) to be used as weapons. It just doesn't fit with what Annatar was telling them.
I think warfare is the last thing that Annatar would have spoken of.
I suppose if Annatar could have added some martial type power to the rings without the Mirdain's knowledge, he may have done so. That may have worked towards his ultimate purpose with the rings.
Considering that Annatar was secretly preparing his own Elven servants, certainly he did consider warfare.
As for the Mirdain... They were Noldor, who took part in various kinslayings and the war against Angband. I don't think they suddenly became all that peaceful. Also, if they remembered the history of the Silmarils, Nauglamir etc. they would know that those in possession of important artifacts of Power (like the Rings) are in danger first and formost from their fellow Elves. It is not as paranoid as it seems to prepare for an eventual attack from Lindon and from Lorien. And as Morgoth coveted the Silmarils, Sauron might start to covet the Rings, once he learned about their existance. So powers in warfare and leadership could have been added to the Nine (and the Seven) by mutual agreement.

Well, I don't think the men who became the Nazgul had a Balrog and dragons gunning for them. This puts the Dwarf ring-holders at quite a disadvantage survival rate-wise. :D
Good point. :D The nazgul were not fools enough to try to share flat with a Barlog.:p So - then the Seven may have possessed the same powers in warfare as the Nine.

You are speaking here about the powers of the rings after Saruon had recovered them, changed them to better suit his purposes, and distributed them. I don't doubt that the powers of the rings were very similar both before and after Sauron recovered them in the Second Age, but there were differences too.
That is unclear at what point Sauron had "corrupted" the Rings: at their making or after he had seized them. I tend to believe in the former. How could he change the already-made Ring? Of course, he could curse them, and likely did, but I don't believe in adding additional powers.

So even though the nine rings, for instance, caused blades to shatter on their holders in the Third Age, that doesn't at all mean that this power was originally built into the rings. I think that was indeed the power of the Nine. See here: the One seemingly contained all the powers of the other Rings combined, and we know - it could be used for warfare. Where would those powers come from? Not from the Three, then, likely from the Nine, and maybe also from the Seven. Elendil's blade broke after it had wounded Sauron who wore the One. Aiglos, the lance of Gil-Galad, was never spoken about again - likely it was destroyed as well.

[CAB]

Could you, please, clarify - I didn't get it, sorry:o

Sorry Gordis. I am going purely from memory here, so I may be remembering things incorrectly (even more so than usual. :D)

As I recall, Galadriel scorned Annatar whose response was basically to not respond at all. His reaction to her and his words to Celebrimbor (though this is hardly a great deal of evidence) leads me to think he was playing the role of…maybe not a pacifist, but something close to it. Planning to make weapons of war would have been counter to the image he was trying to project and might have drawn suspicion rather than enthusiasm for his ring project.


Considering that Annatar was secretly preparing his own Elven servants, certainly he did consider warfare.
As for the Mirdain... They were Noldor, who took part in various kinslayings and the war against Angband. I don't think they suddenly became all that peaceful. Also, if they remembered the history of the Silmarils, Nauglamir etc. they would know that those in possession of important artifacts of Power (like the Rings) are in danger first and formost from their fellow Elves. It is not as paranoid as it seems to prepare for an eventual attack from Lindon and from Lorien. And as Morgoth coveted the Silmarils, Sauron might start to covet the Rings, once he learned about their existance. So powers in warfare and leadership could have been added to the Nine (and the Seven) by mutual agreement.

I don't question that Annatar thought of warfare. I do think it would have been counter-productive for him to speak of it.

I agree with your logic here, but I'm not sure it fits with Annatar's "selling points". Part of my objection is surely something of an emotional response (which doesn't necessarily make it invalid, since the Mirdain may have felt the same way). Doesn't it just seem wrong to say "I have this ring here which helps me create lovely works of art and make the world a more beautiful place,... and I can also use it to kill orcs by the dozen."? Of course I know that weapons were also works of art themselves, but this just seems too much of a contradiction.


Good point. :D The nazgul were not fools enough to try to share flat with a Barlog.:p So - then the Seven may have possessed the same powers in warfare as the Nine.

I wasn't really trying to argue the point, but I don't think there is enough evidence for us to know for certain. I do remember that when…hmm, I guess it was Thror giving the ring to Thrain, he spoke of the ability of the ring to generate wealth, but said nothing of any martial powers. Of course, this may be because their poverty was weighing very heavily on their minds at the time.

I guess the two main types of large scale power in the world are monetary and military. Both surely would have worked quite well among both Dwarves and Men, but maybe monetary power worked better for Dwarves, while military was dominant among Men. If so the rings may have been designed (or corrupted) accordingly.


That is unclear at what point Sauron had "corrupted" the Rings: at their making or after he had seized them. I tend to believe in the former. How could he change the already-made Ring? Of course, he could curse them, and likely did, but I don't believe in adding additional powers.

I think it was both. I doubt that he added any power to the rings, but I do think he twisted whatever power was already there.


I think that was indeed the power of the Nine. See here: the One seemingly contained all the powers of the other Rings combined, and we know - it could be used for warfare. Where would those powers come from? Not from the Three, then, likely from the Nine, and maybe also from the Seven. Elendil's blade broke after it had wounded Sauron who wore the One. Aiglos, the lance of Gil-Galad, was never spoken about again - likely it was destroyed as well.
This is an interesting thought. I never considered that. But wasn't Elendil's sword supposed to have broken underneath him?


I think part of what makes these issues confusing (at least for me) is lack of knowledge concerning Sauron's plans for his Elven ring holders. How exactly was he going to use them? Did he really think they would be able to force the Elven populace to live under his banner? Did he want the Elves to fight among themselves (if so, then maybe the rings weren't intended to be passed out too widely beyond Eregion after all)? Did he simply want to cause dissention or distraction among the Elves to allow himself the time and ability to gather power and defeat them in battle? It is difficult to guess the original powers of the rings without knowing the answers to questions such as these.

[Gordis]

As I recall, Galadriel scorned Annatar whose response was basically to not respond at all. His reaction to her and his words to Celebrimbor (though this is hardly a great deal of evidence) leads me to think he was playing the role of…maybe not a pacifist, but something close to it. Planning to make weapons of war would have been counter to the image he was trying to project and might have drawn suspicion rather than enthusiasm for his ring project.
Hmm… I don't share this impression, sorry. After all, pacifist or not, Annatar cunningly induced the Mirdain to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and expel them from Eregion. I think Pacifism as such was hardly ever popular in ME (except with Tom Bombadil). Being able to fight and defend themselves was ingrained in Elven culture. Turgon might have been sitting hidden in Nevrast and in Gondolin, Thingol in Doriath, Galadriel in Lorien, but surely they were prepared for war at any time.

Doesn't it just seem wrong to say "I have this ring here which helps me create lovely works of art and make the world a more beautiful place,... and I can also use it to kill orcs by the dozen."?
That would be a bit lame ;) - but how about "and I can also repel any invaders and remain unscathed in any fight"? BTW - I think it was actually correct: the Nine and the One couldn't kill orcs by the dozen - but they could frighten them by the thousand and make them run away. The Rings surely affected the enemies psychologically (Sam at Cirith Ungol, the nazgul everywhere). Also the rings offered protection to the wielder: at Orodruin it seems Sauron was the last remaining fighter from his group, when he was accosted by Elendil and Gil-Galad.

I wasn't really trying to argue the point, but I don't think there is enough evidence for us to know for certain.
That is indeed so - we can only speculate, but we can prove nothing.:)

I guess the two main types of large scale power in the world are monetary and military. Both surely would have worked quite well among both Dwarves and Men, but maybe monetary power worked better for Dwarves, while military was dominant among Men. If so the rings may have been designed (or corrupted) accordingly.Or maybe all the Seven and the Nine were imbued with both monetary and military power - only their new owners used it mainly for one of these aspects. The future nazgul were said to "obtain great wealth", so the Nine worked OK for gaining money.

I think it was both. I doubt that he added any power to the rings, but I do think he twisted whatever power was already there.
"Twisted" is a bit unclear to me. Twisted what? Preservation? But we are told that the Men turned into wraiths simply because they were supposed to be mortal - the Elven Rings were unsuitable for them. Yet the Nine helped them to gain great power and wealth. The Dwarves did excel in their craft and obtained great hoards, but remained mortal, because nothing can make a Dwarf immortal - again the Elven Rings were unsuitable for them. I see no ring powers twisted here - only unspecific powers for the race in question, which was a drawback of Sauron's plan B.

And if you mean the corruption and "twisting" of the minds of the wielders - well, it was done mainly through the link of the One to the Nine that enabled Sauron in the SA to work on the minds of the future nazgul as much as he wished.

Perhaps, in addition, there was some measure of inherent "corruption" within the Rings: a part of Sauron's will was contained in the 7 and 9 the same way as it was contained in the One. But surely the One contained far more of "Sauron" - and look, Gollum had it for 500 years, but still preserved "Smeagol" part in him, hated Sauron's very guts and was even able to lie and cheat Sauron himself. I guess, if a nice Man had one of the Nine for 500 years in the absence of the One, it would merely result in a not-very-nice wraith, but not really evil one - and not Sauron's servant.

This is an interesting thought. I never considered that. But wasn't Elendil's sword supposed to have broken underneath him?
A good sword can't be broken just because someone falls on it. There was surely some magick involved. Usually people believe Narsil magically broke because its master died, like Gurthang broke asunder when it took Turin's life. But Gurthang was VERY special, and lots of blades remained unscathed in this case (Aranruth, Glamdring, Orcrist, Sting, Isildur's sword etc.) If all swords shattered when their owners died, the term "heirloom" for swords would have been impossible.

But perhaps there is another explanation for the breaking of Narsil? We know that "all blades perish that pierce" the Witch -King, and likely other nazgul as well. This power can come from the Nine Rings, or from a special enchantment. But ANYWAY this power ultimately comes from Sauron. Now - wouldn't Sauron provide the same enchantment for himself, as he knew how to do it? Thus Elendil's sword may have shattered much like Merry's and Eowyn's did - and it was simply a coincidence that Elendil died at the same time.

I think part of what makes these issues confusing (at least for me) is lack of knowledge concerning Sauron's plans for his Elven ring holders. How exactly was he going to use them? Did he really think they would be able to force the Elven populace to live under his banner?
If he continued to wear the guise of the wise and gentle Annatar - why not? The Elves would have become Sauron's marionettes without knowing it.

Did he want the Elves to fight among themselves (if so, then maybe the rings weren't intended to be passed out too widely beyond Eregion after all)?
Also a great idea. You would make a cunning Dark Lord, CAB!:D Suppose Gil Galad, Amroth, Oropher, Ciran get no rings at all - wouldn't they be frustrated? Wouldn't they attack when they realize that Eregion had completely fallen to Sauron? And the Numenoreans would hardly come to help one group of Elves defeat another. Then Eregion would justly retaliate and be victorious...:cool:

[CAB]

Hmm… I don't share this impression, sorry. After all, pacifist or not, Annatar cunningly induced the Mirdain to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and expel them from Eregion. I think Pacifism as such was hardly ever popular in ME (except with Tom Bombadil). Being able to fight and defend themselves was ingrained in Elven culture. Turgon might have been sitting hidden in Nevrast and in Gondolin, Thingol in Doriath, Galadriel in Lorien, but surely they were prepared for war at any time.

Well, we can't agree on everything now can we. :) Though I don't expect to win you over, I still have some things I would like to say on this subject.

First, I never meant to imply that the Elves had become pacifists (or near pacifists). Actually, I'm not saying that Annatar was either. My point is that Annatar seemed to be playing the role of something of a near pacifist.

Second, it doesn't matter that the Elves weren't near pacifists. Surely not everything they made or did revolved around warfare. You mentioned two of the Elves greatest works earlier in this thread: the Silmarils and the Elessar. Neither one of these had anything to do with giving advantage in battle. Why did the rings have to be different, especially when their creation was guided by a (seeming) near pacifist?

Last, regarding the expulsion of Galadriel and Celeborn, it doesn't matter if Annatar was playing the role of a near pacifist. There doesn't seem to have been any violence involved. There are other examples of pacifists causing non-violent political turnover (think Gandhi). And, if Annatar was clever enough (I think he was) he could have made the Mirdain and other Elves think that the removal of Galadriel and Celeborn was their own idea (think Melkor among the Noldor in Valinor).


That would be a bit lame ;) - but how about "and I can also repel any invaders and remain unscathed in any fight"?

Better, :D but I would still say that it doesn't fit and it just seems unnecessary to me. If they wanted to make weapons why didn't they make weapons, instead of making some sort of "bring beauty into the world/defeat enemies" combo?


Or maybe all the Seven and the Nine were imbued with both monetary and military power - only their new owners used it mainly for one of these aspects. The future nazgul were said to "obtain great wealth", so the Nine worked OK for gaining money.

I would guess that the seven and nine each helped their owners obtain both kinds of power. I agree that each individual ring holder would have used his ring differently. As to the question of whether or not the different classes rings provided different levels of aid in regards to the different types of power - who knows?


Twisted is a bit unclear to me. Twisted what? Preservation? But we are told that the Men turned into wraiths simply because they were supposed to be mortal - the Elven Rings were unsuitable for them. Yet the Nine helped them to gain great power and wealth. The Dwarves did excel in their craft and obtained great hoards, but remained mortal, because nothing can make a Dwarf immortal - again the Elven Rings were unsuitable for them. I see no ring powers twisted here - only unspecific powers for the race in question, which was a drawback of Sauron's plan B.

And if you mean the corruption and "twisting" of the minds of the wielders - well, it was done mainly through the link of the One to the Nine that enabled Sauron in the SA to work on the minds of the future nazgul as much as he wished.

Perhaps, in addition, there was some measure of inherent "corruption" within the Rings: a part of Sauron's will was contained in the 7 and 9 the same way as it was contained in the One. But surely the One contained far more of "Sauron" - and look, Gollum had it for 500 years, but still preserved "Smeagol" part in him, hated Sauron's very guts and was even able to lie and cheat Sauron himself. I guess, if a nice Man had one of the Nine for 500 years in the absence of the One, it would merely result in a not-very-nice wraith, but not really evil one - and not Sauron's servant.

I would say it is a bit pointless to argue about which powers may have been changed to which after Sauron recovered the rings because we know little about the powers of the rings both before and after this recovery. But I do believe that changes were made. This belief isn't really based on any particular evidence (of which we have very little) as much as it is based on simple logic.

It is pretty much undeniable that some corruption must have been in the rings from the beginning, or else Sauron wouldn't have been able to control them and their holders via the One.

As for the post recovery changes, the rings were originally made (primarily) by Elves for Elves. Whether there was martial power placed in them or not (which is where, of course, we disagree) their purpose was for good. No doubt Annatar was able to "hide" some more sinister traits in the rings without the Mirdain's knowledge, but he could not give them blatantly evil aspects.

Now, after Sauron took the rings, he decided they were no longer meant for Elves (thus probably necessitating changes) and he was no longer as restrained regarding how much evil he could place within the rings, since Men and probably even the Dwarves would be unable to recognize this evil as easily as could the Mirdain. (I just had a thought here. Maybe the Dwarf ring holders were not affected enough to become Sauron's servants because he initially feared to leave to much of a "signature" on the seven rings. One would expect that the Dwarves, being great craftsmen, would see this much more easily than Men, so maybe their rings were left somehow less evil).

Since he was less restrained, since the rings would probably better fit his purposes with some alteration, and since he surely had the power to make some (though almost certainly not complete) alterations, I would guess that Sauron did so.

As for the choice of the word "twisted", it appears to have been one that Tolkien used for descriptions such as this, so umm...that's why I used it. :D


A good sword can't be broken just because someone falls on it. There was surely some magick involved. Usually people believe Narsil magically broke because its master died, like Gurthang broke asunder when it took Turin's life. But Gurthang was VERY special, and lots of blades remained unscathed in this case (Aranruth, Glamdring, Orcrist, Sting, Isildur's sword etc.) If all swords shattered when their owners died, the term "heirloom" for swords would have been impossible.

But perhaps there is another explanation for the breaking of Narsil? We know that "all blades perish that pierce" the Witch -King, and likely other nazgul as well. This power can come from the Nine Rings, or from a special enchantment. But ANYWAY this power ultimately comes from Sauron. Now - wouldn't Sauron provide the same enchantment for himself, as he knew how to do it? Thus Elendil's sword may have shattered much like Merry's and Eowyn's did - and it was simply a coincidence that Elendil died at the same time.

It really is a good idea, Gordis. I like your logic here. Does it prove that the nine rings held this power before Sauron recovered them? - Not at all. But it is certainly a possibility.


Also a great idea. You would make a cunning Dark Lord, CAB!:D
Thanks Gordis. If I managed to achieve that position, that would make me your boss, right? And my first order to you would be: Start a new thread here every week! :D I would say an interesting thread, but, with you, the interesting part is a given.

[Gordis]

Well, we can't agree on everything now can we. :) No, we can't - and that is good.;) Let's agree to disagree on Annatar's professed pacifism.

If they wanted to make weapons why didn't they make weapons, instead of making some sort of "bring beauty into the world/defeat enemies" combo? True, but look at the future nazgul.
We do know that using Rings helped them to raise their station in life: to become Kings, or greater Kings than they used to be, to achieve glory and great wealth etc. But unlike Elves, they certainly didn't impress their followers by beautifying their Kingdoms. Instead, it is likely they displayed stronger leadership, war victories, maybe made better laws etc. Neither did they obtain wealth by mining gold, crafting jewelry and selling it, like Dwarves: more likely they simply plundered the neighbors. How could the wholly "pacifist" rings help them in that?

Of course, maybe it was all due to the general quality of the Rings to increase the skills, the gifts and the flaws of their owners - whatever they may be. Thus Gollum the petty tief simply became the "better" tief than he used to be and a gifted King became a genius in warfare and state matters. As you said, CAB, alternative explanations are also possible and who knows what is right?

It is pretty much undeniable that some corruption must have been in the rings from the beginning, or else Sauron wouldn't have been able to control them and their holders via the One. The whole idea of the Rings was "a veiled attack on Gods". It was against the designs of Eru to have a paradise in ME, to tweak time and nature. Moreover all the Rings used Sauron's know-how with a distinct Morgul flair to it (Alcuin has argued about it quite convincingly). No wonder another, stronger Morgul device - the One Ring - was able to control it.

As for the post recovery changes, the rings were originally made (primarily) by Elves for Elves. Whether there was martial power placed in them or not (which is where, of course, we disagree) their purpose was for good. No doubt Annatar was able to "hide" some more sinister traits in the rings without the Mirdain's knowledge, but he could not give them blatantly evil aspects. I don't think the sinister traits of the Rings (like invisibility) had been hidden from Celebrimbor. Most likely Annatar was able to justify them before the Mirdain.

They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. [...]
The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. -L #131

But if we go a little further, Elven desires could be subdivided into several problems to solve:

1. The problem with individual fading. The oldest members of the Mirdain would be more in danger. Likely the original idea (the first step in the creation of the rings) was to give a Ring to each of the oldest Elves to prevent the fading of the hroa. The Lesser Rings had not enough power for that (as we know from Gandalf's words at the Council of Elrond: "The power of the ring had lengthened [Gollum's] years far beyond their span; but that power only the Great Rings wield."), but the Nine and later the Seven were already sufficient for that task.

2. The problem with the Lingerers and the Houseless. Likely, by the time of the forging of the Rings, quite a few Elves had already faded, but still remained in ME, hanging around among their kin and their loved ones. I guess those who came to ME with Feanor would be much less inclined to leave for Valinor than an average Elf. Could the Rings somehow restore the faded bodies, make them visible again? I don't know if it were possible. But what was possible was to help the other Elves to communicate with the Lingerers, see them. Not all Elves had natural access into the Spirit World - only the Calaquendi among them. The others, born in ME, needed rings to gain this access into the Spirit world. And that is I believe the explanation why all the early Rings (all the Lesser ones, the 9 and the 7) provided easy transfer into the Spirit World. It seems this ability was Annatar's contribution to the project, but still he had to explain why it was needed to Celebrimbor, and Celebrimbor had to agree to it.

3. The beautifying of the Earth and healing of its hurts. This task needed strong Rings, acting not only on individual level, but also effecting the environment around the wielder. I believe, among the 19, only the Three were fully up to this task. Only the Three were able to make paradise-like enclaves with warped time, like in Lorien and Rivendell. (However, sometimes the discussion arises about the phenomenon of the Morgul Vale - whether time was also warped there, and whether this peculiar environment - the magic stream, white flowers, pale glow of the fortress - was the work of the Nine Rings).

Actually, as the Elves's wishes included the third task, then Annatar had to consider it - at least I am sure it had been discussed. So, I guess, Annatar at least had some hint that the Elves would want to make something like the Three. The Three couldn't come as a complete surprise for him, even if Celebrimbor made them in secret.


Thanks Gordis. If I managed to achieve that position, that would make me your boss, right? And my first order to you would be: Start a new thread here every week! :D I would say an interesting thread, but, with you, the interesting part is a given. Yessss, Massster!:D

[CAB]

True, but look at the future nazgul.
We do know that using Rings helped them to raise their station in life: to become Kings, or greater Kings than they used to be, to achieve glory and great wealth etc. But unlike Elves, they certainly didn't impress their followers by beautifying their Kingdoms. Instead, it is likely they displayed stronger leadership, war victories, maybe made better laws etc. Neither did they obtain wealth by mining gold, crafting jewelry and selling it, like Dwarves: more likely they simply plundered the neighbors. How could the wholly "pacifist" rings help them in that?

Of course, maybe it was all due to the general quality of the Rings to increase the skills, the gifts and the flaws of their owners - whatever they may be. Thus Gollum the petty tief simply became the "better" tief than he used to be and a gifted King became a genius in warfare and state matters. As you said, CAB, alternative explanations are also possible and who knows what is right?

You will notice the part of the quote I bolded. You said it yourself. The Elves probably placed greater value on beautifying the world vs military type strength as opposed to Men. Considering the history of the rings then, it only makes sense that they were originally intended (by the Elves, at least) for more peaceful things and later changed by Sauron when he decided to give the rings to Men. In other words the (for the Elves, supposedly at least) near pacifist-type rings were likely "twisted" by Sauron after he recovered them to better suit his purposes with Men and also to better suit the purposes of the Men who would hold them.


The whole idea of the Rings was "a veiled attack on Gods". It was against the designs of Eru to have a paradise in ME, to tweak time and nature. Moreover all the Rings used Sauron's know-how with a distinct Morgul flair to it (Alcuin has argued about it quite convincingly). No wonder another, stronger Morgul device - the One Ring - was able to control it.

The rings may well have been "a veiled attack on Gods", but certainly not the first one, unless the Gods in question were the Valar. (Didn't Tolkien deny the idea of equating the Valar with Gods?)

I don't recall Alcuin's argument, so I am hesitant to challenge it (he is Alcuin after all), but if it implies that the other rings were controlled by the One without a specific mechanism for this having been built into them, then I must strongly disagree. This is what they were made for. I think the powers of the rings for communication between each other was closely related to this control mechanism, and I doubt that this communication was simply a byproduct of being a Morgul device.


I don't think the sinister traits of the Rings (like invisibility) had been hidden from Celebrimbor. Most likely Annatar was able to justify them before the Mirdain.

Yes, I had thought of this, but I was getting a little too wordy and also wasn't sure how to put it. Annatar providing justification for some questionable powers is a definite possibility. Other options may be powers seemingly meant for one (peaceful) thing that can also be used for something else (I think that Elrond's flood may be a good example of something like this). Also there might have been abilities placed into the rings that could have been easily twisted into something more fitting for a servant of Sauron.


Concerning the problems and desires of the Elves, I think you are right and that probably all these problems were in the Mirdains' minds while making the rings. (And, not to press the point too hard, :) but I think the making of the rings, for the Mirdain, had much more to do with these desires than with victory in battle.)

The situation in the Morgul vale is one I haven't thought of before. This could certainly be evidence that the nine possessed powers similar to (though less than) the three, but that these powers had likely been twisted by Sauron.

I agree that it is not likely that Sauron was surprised by the making of the three rings.

[Gordis]

About Alcuin's ideas: Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=19326) is the thread, I think - though there might have been others.

[CAB]

I have looked at the thread (well, your and Alcuin's posts anyway :D…good posts as always), but there is nothing there indicating a belief that the only thing needed to give the One control over the other rings was simply a shared Morgul element. Actually, I would think that being Morgul devices probably was a prerequisite for this kind of control, but that there still had to be something more (and more specific) involved.

The idea that the Mirdain placed a portion of their souls into the rings is an interesting one. It also helps explain your original position that both the seven and nine were intended for only the Mirdain themselves. I see some problems with this view, though. The bodily existence of both Sauron and the Nazgul seems to have been tied to their rings, yet this doesn't seem to be true for the Mirdain. Also, what about the three rings? I think we agree that two of these had to be intended for people other than those (or "he") who created them. They were the most powerful of the 19 rings, so if this power came primarily from Elvish souls, then this means that someone contributed a larger portion of his soul to a ring not intended for himself than other members of the Mirdain did for rings they themselves were to keep. Unless, that is, we start talking about multiple Elves placing parts of themselves into individual rings. Would they all do that for Galadriel after they had sent her packing? Edit: Of course if this power didn't come from Elvish souls, then where did it come from? It clearly wasn't all Sauron's power.


I suppose I am getting a bit too much off subject here, but reading that thread brought a question to mind. Delaying the Elves' fading in Middle Earth was against Eru's design. Why was it ok in Valinor? I'm pretty sure I read before that the creation of Valinor was itself a mistake. It certainly wasn't part of the original layout of the earth. Does this mean that most of the Elves (according to Eru's design) were supposed to have faded / be fading by the end of the Third Age? Or am I (most likely) forgetting / misunderstanding something?

[Gordis]

The Elves probably placed greater value on beautifying the world vs military type strength as opposed to Men. Considering the history of the rings then, it only makes sense that they were originally intended (by the Elves, at least) for more peaceful things and later changed by Sauron when he decided to give the rings to Men. In other words the (for the Elves, supposedly at least) near pacifist-type rings were likely "twisted" by Sauron after he recovered them to better suit his purposes with Men and also to better suit the purposes of the Men who would hold them.
I think Elves also placed great value on the devices that helped to keep intruders out (the Girdle of Melian, the secrecy of Gondolin and Nargothrond etc.). No, not offensive weapons meant for conquest - in this I agree with you. But you mentioned yourself the Flood of Bruinen made by Vilya. So even the "most pacifist" of the 19 had some possibilities to be used in warfare.
My hypothesis is that the 9 were supposed to be used in defense, the 7 for craft and the 3 for beautifying and healing of the land. The fact that the weakest rings were for warfare and the strongest for healing, reflected the Mirdain's priorities.

I don't recall Alcuin's argument, so I am hesitant to challenge it (he is Alcuin after all), but if it implies that the other rings were controlled by the One without a specific mechanism for this having been built into them, then I must strongly disagree. This is what they were made for.
I can't speak for Alcuin, but I think that all the Rings were built on the same principle - like electricity or magnetism, thus the One Ring built on the same principle was able to control them.

I think the powers of the rings for communication between each other was closely related to this control mechanism, and I doubt that this communication was simply a byproduct of being a Morgul device.
That would be Osanwe. The Rings were Osanwe devices and there surely existed a direct communication between the One and the other Rings - that's how the Elves heard Sauron's Ring-spell, that's how Sauron brainwashed the nazgul, that's what happened with Frodo at Amon Hen, when he "heard" both Sauron and Gandalf. Whether the Osanwe contact between the 19 rings was also possible, I don't know. Maybe yes. There is always a question how the Wise and Sauron knew that exactly 4 of the 7 had been destroyed. Likely they simply "felt" their absence, likely the whole "chain" of the Rings had been weakened.

The situation in the Morgul vale is one I haven't thought of before. This could certainly be evidence that the nine possessed powers similar to (though less than) the three, but that these powers had likely been twisted by Sauron.Not necessarily the powers were twisted, more likely the minds of the nazgul had become twisted to see beauty in evil-looking, tortured statues and to find the charnel-smell of the pale flowers pleasing.

By the way, CAB, if you were right, and the nazgul had already lost their Rings to Sauron by TA 2000, then the phenomenon of the Morgul Vale was made without the presence of the Nine Rings.

Sure the powers of the Nine rings seem to have passed into nazgul themselves to some extent... suggesting by the way that there was some spiritual component in them, coming both from Sauron and the Elves. Maybe over time, parts of the nazgul fëar passed into the Rings, being substituted by what was contained in the Rings from the start. Thus a bond was formed between a nazgul and his Ring, assuring a "primary control of his will" by Sauron (who held the Nine) and also keeping the wraith in ME, even after his body had been slain.

The idea that the Mirdain placed a portion of their souls into the rings is an interesting one. It also helps explain your original position that both the seven and nine were intended for only the Mirdain themselves. I see some problems with this view, though. The bodily existence of both Sauron and the Nazgul seems to have been tied to their rings, yet this doesn't seem to be true for the Mirdain. You sure?;) Celebrimbor had not destroyed the Rings - maybe he would have died if he did and his damaged fea would never be rehoused? Also maybe the Houseless Celebrimbor and the other houseless Mirdain were hanging around Eregion for all the Third Age - unless they were used by Sauron for something, like guarding Barrows or serving as silent Watchers? I guess a nazgul wearing one of the Nine would have complete control over the fea of the Mirdan who had made his ring.

Also, what about the three rings? I think we agree that two of these had to be intended for people other than those (or "he") who created them. They were the most powerful of the twenty rings, so if this power came primarily from Elvish souls, then this means that someone contributed a larger portion of his soul to a ring not intended for himself than other members of the Mirdain did for rings they themselves were to keep. Unless, that is, we start talking about multiple Elves placing parts of themselves into individual rings. Would they all do that for Galadriel after they had sent her packing? Edit: Of course if this power didn't come from Elvish souls, then where did it come from? It clearly wasn't all Sauron's power.
Good question. I think the power of the Three only came from Celbrimbor's soul - that's why I believe he made the other two rings for persons very dear to him, not for some unspecified Elven Lords, like Gil-Galad, Cirdan or Amroth. Such persons could only be Galadriel and Annatar.

I guess the crafting of the Three had drained Celebrimbor immensely. Originally he planned to wear the strongest Ring, where the largest part of his fea was contained, so he would be OK. But when he parted with the Three, there was but an empty shell left of him, virtually. I guess there was little left to rehouse when he finally came to Valinor - and maybe the remnants of his fea haunted Lorien and Rivendell throughout the Third Age.

I suppose I am getting a bit too much off subject here, but reading that thread brought a question to mind. Delaying the Elves' fading in Middle Earth was against Eru's design. Why was it ok in Valinor? I'm pretty sure I read before that the creation of Valinor was itself a mistake. It certainly wasn't part of the original layout of the earth. Does this mean that most of the Elves (according to Eru's design) were supposed to have faded / be fading by the end of the Third Age? Or am I (most likely) forgetting / misunderstanding something?
I don't know the answer, CAB. Maybe if you open a new thread, someone may come up with a good idea.

[CAB]

I think Elves also placed great value on the devices that helped to keep intruders out (the Girdle of Melian, the secrecy of Gondolin and Nargothrond etc.). No, not offensive weapons meant for conquest - in this I agree with you. But you mentioned yourself the Flood of Bruinen made by Vilya. So even the "most pacifist" of the 19 had some possibilities to be used in warfare.

I think this is a very reasonable point of view. I still don't agree with the nine being originally intended primarily for defense, but I certainly wouldn't argue that is unreasonable to believe that they were.


Not necessarily the powers were twisted, more likely the minds of the nazgul had become twisted to see beauty in evil-looking, tortured statues and to find the charnel-smell of the pale flowers pleasing.

Also very reasonable. Of course, it could have been due to twisting of either the rings, the Nazgul, both, or even some unrelated power. I think I would vote for the "both" option as being the most likely.


By the way, CAB, if you were right, and the nazgul had already lost their Rings to Sauron by TA 2000, then the phenomenon of the Morgul Vale was made without the presence of the Nine Rings.

Another oversight! Still, though the rings themselves weren't present, as you say, some of their power surely was. Something had to be causing the situation Morgul Vale and, though I hadn't considered it before, I would now say that the power of the nine rings is the obvious first (no, not only) choice.


You sure?;) Celebrimbor had not destroyed the Rings - maybe he would have died if he did and his damaged fea would never be rehoused? Also maybe the Houseless Celebrimbor and the other houseless Mirdain were hanging around Eregion for all the Third Age - unless they were used by Sauron for something, like guarding Barrows or serving as silent Watchers? I guess a nazgul wearing one of the Nine would have complete control over the fea of the Mirdan who had made his ring.

:D I thought you might suggest this. :D I agree. This is a very interesting (and creepy) possibility.


Good question. I think the power of the Three only came from Celbrimbor's soul - that's why I believe he made the other two rings for persons very dear to him, not for some unspecified Elven Lords, like Gil-Galad, Cirdan or Amroth. Such persons could only be Galadriel and Annatar.

I guess the crafting of the Three had drained Celebrimbor immensely. Originally he planned to wear the strongest Ring, where the largest part of his fea was contained, so he would be OK. But when he parted with the Three, there was but an empty shell left of him, virtually. I guess there was little left to rehouse when he finally came to Valinor - and maybe the remnants of his fea haunted Lorien and Rivendell throughout the Third Age.

Let me clarify my position a little bit. Though there are problems with this view, I agree that the power of the 19 rings almost certainly came primarily from Elvish souls. What other good options are there? Why else would Sauron use the Elves to make the rings? Wouldn't it have been simpler, if possible, for him to make the rings himself (free of any unneeded or unfavorable Elvish input) and distribute them only to those whom he wished to ensnare? I just think that the theory needs some refinement.

I must admit, thinking along these lines does make me start to wonder if all the seven and nine were intended only for the Mirdain (as we discussed earlier). Maybe Sauron's ultimate plans regarding the rings really was Elf vs Elf conflict. He was known to cause fighting among those who should have been united against him on other occasions.

[Gordis]

I still don't agree with the nine being originally intended primarily for defense, but I certainly wouldn't argue that is unreasonable to believe that they were.
No, I didn't mean "primarily" - sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Primarily all the rings were designed for preservation and healing. The Nine had enough power to prolong the "unfaded" lives of individual Elves and thus the existence of Men indefinitely, which none of the Lesser Rings could. Also primary powers of the Nine permitted their wielders to enter the Spirit World.

But apart from the primary powers, I believe, all of the Great Rings had secondary, powers which we have been discussing. An example of one such secondary power of the One Ring was understanding of languages - likely mirrored in some (or all) of the 19. Fighting skills, shield for the wielder, knowledge of smith-craft, sense for hidden gold and jewels may be other secondary powers.

Something had to be causing the situation Morgul Vale and, though I hadn't considered it before, I would now say that the power of the nine rings is the obvious first (no, not only) choice.
I guess Morgul Vale was an example of artificially (magically) wrought wraith-friendly environment (like Lorien was Elf-friendly environment). Both groups of beings had a common goal - to live through long centuries without suffering from boredom. ;)

Let me clarify my position a little bit. Though there are problems with this view, I agree that the power of the 19 rings almost certainly came primarily from Elvish souls. What other good options are there? Why else would Sauron use the Elves to make the rings? Wouldn't it have been simpler, if possible, for him to make the rings himself (free of any unneeded or unfavorable Elvish input) and distribute them only to those whom he wished to ensnare? I just think that the theory needs some refinement.
I think the principle of the Rings we were talking about (which I have compared to electricity or magnetism) was a Morgul know-how of pouring a part of one's soul into an object. Likely the Nine had more of Sauron in them than of the Elves, as the latter were only learning the technique, the Seven had more Elf-component, less of Sauron, while the Three were entirely Elvish.

Maybe the whole 9+7+3 scheme was not agreed upon from the start: the collaborators first made the 9 (a Ring for seven Mirdain + one for Celebrimbor + one for Annatar), then decided that they could now do better than that and made the other Rings. Each Mirdan under the supervision of Annatar made his own Ring (with a huge chunk of his soul) and Celebrimbor later made the Three all alone. As the Nine contained very little of Elvish souls, their possessors exchanged them for one of the Seven without much regrets. So did Celebrimbor - he took one of the Three. That's how the Nine were found unused in 1697.

And the Dwarves who got the Rings were likely beset by Houseless fear of the previous owners...:eek: Maybe that's why Gimli was so afraid of ghosts?:D

I must admit, thinking along these lines does make me start to wonder if all the seven and nine were intended only for the Mirdain (as we discussed earlier). Maybe Sauron's ultimate plans regarding the rings really was Elf vs Elf conflict. He was known to cause fighting among those who should have been united against him on other occasions.
I agree. Perhaps Sauron was not intending to help the Mirdain to defend Eregion and their Rings from the other Elves - thus the rings would naturally find their way to the strongest of the remaining Elves and those in the highest position. Also the Elves who got the Rings by killing their kin would be far more vulnerable to his nefarious influence (as Gollum was vs. Bilbo and Frodo).

[CAB]

No, I didn't mean "primarily" - sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Primarily all the rings were designed for preservation and healing.

Ahh, I did misunderstand you. If we are talking about lesser powers of the rings then I am much more inclined to agree with you.


And the Dwarves who got the Rings were likely beset by Houseless fear of the previous owners...:eek: Maybe that's why Gimli was so afraid of ghosts?:D

You joke, but that is a pretty good idea. And maybe the smarter Mirdain were the ones that convinced dragons to destroy the rings that they had created…..


then again, maybe not. :D

[Gordis]

You joke, but that is a pretty good idea. And maybe the smarter Mirdain were the ones that convinced dragons to destroy the rings that they had created…..
then again, maybe not. :D

Good idea too. :cool:
But really, when Sauron puts a lot of his power and will (a great part of his fea) into a Ring, he becomes bound to it. Sure it has to be the same for Elves: the Seven Mirdain had to be bound to the Seven Rings in the same way as the ringless nazgul were bound to the Nine - unable to leave ME even after death.
No wonder if they would devise some plan to free themselves. Being Houseless, they could have no real interaction with the physical world: couldn't attack the Dwarves themselves. So, pointing to a greedy Dragon a Dwarven hoard to plunder would be a brilliant idea.;)

[Vidugavia]

Wonderful theory Gordis! Cirdain gift of Narya to Gandalf, Saurons great enemy, gets a deeper meaning with this perspective. Celebrimbors gift is turned into a weapon against his treacherous friend. I wonder if Cirdain might have known this?

[Gordis]

Thank you for your kind words, Vidugavia:evil:
Cirdain gift of Narya to Gandalf, Saurons great enemy, gets a deeper meaning with this perspective. Celebrimbors gift is turned into a weapon against his treacherous friend. I wonder if Cirdain might have known this?
Possibly he did. We know Cirdan didn't use the Ring himself for some reason.
It looks like Narya helped Gandalf to become what Celebrimbor saw in Annatar, what he wanted Annatar to be: the kindler of hearts, the trusted advisor of the remaining Elves, the leader of resistance against Evil.