Aldarion and Erendis (UT) revisited

[Gordis]

Let us discuss again this wonderful story and all its aspects.

Yes, I know there was an old thread on the same subject HERE (http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=7343&highlight=erendis), but on 5 pages of it there are few serious posts - mostly banter.
I think a new thread is in order - with new participants. And in the 5 years that passed, even those who have given their opinion in the old thread (like Earniel) may have changed them;).

How about discussing the following things?

Please vote, who do you think was more to blame in Aldarion-Erendis dysfunctional marriage.
Could something remedy to the situation and what exactly?
What about the daughter, Ancalimë? Was she also to blame?
What do you think of Aldarion's family (Tar-Meneldur and his queen)- did they act wisely towards their son and daughter-in-law?
The story of Ulbar's family - nice contrast to Aldarion's isn't it?

+ please add anything you think important or relevant

[Earniel]

Since you mentioned changing of opinion, I just had to go and see what I wrote over five years ago. :p But I should re-read the story again first, before starting to discuss it again. We never did an UT chapter by chapter discussion, did we? Shame, we should, one day.

[Gordis]

Since you mentioned changing of opinion, I just had to go and see what I wrote over five years ago. :p But I should re-read the story again first, before starting to discuss it again. We never did an UT chapter by chapter discussion, did we? Shame, we should, one day.

Actually that would be very interesting. Great stories there are in UT.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I've often wondered why the UT's Tuor stuff wasn't in Silm. I'd love to see a complete Tuor story rather than having to jump from book to book.

And relating to this topic, I am firmly in support of Erendis, though I haven't read the story in a couple years. Aldarion was selfish, IMO.

[Earniel]

Actually that would be very interesting. Great stories there are in UT.
Indeed there is, and a lot of interesting information. How about we start one up?

[Gordis]

Good idea to start discussing UT, Earniel.
Only at the beginning there is all this Silm-connected stuff.:rolleyes: I am not too fond of it, but I am sure many here would like to open the discussion on the first chapters.
I am most eager to join when we are at the Numenor part and further. ;)


DPR - you are quite right. Unfinished Tales seems to be a rather motley assemblage of stories, some of which clearly belong to the Silm.
On the other hand, the UT contains only some chosen parts of "the Hunt for the Rings" manuscripts, other random parts of it are now published in Reader's Companion, but most of it remains unpublished.:(

And now to the main question: Aldarion and Erendis.
I am completely on Aldarion's side and think that Erendis was nothing but a silly shrew.

How about the rest of you? Perhaps we can do something new for this forum: form two opposing teams and have a debate?;)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Funny how a female poster sides with the husband and a male poster sides with the wife.

I wonder what the psychology behind that is...

[Varnafindë]

I've often wondered why the UT's Tuor stuff wasn't in Silm. I'd love to see a complete Tuor story rather than having to jump from book to book.

I suppose because the UT's Tuor stuff stopped short just before Tuor entering Gondolin proper. It would have made quite a large contrast to the rest of the story, which was either in a rather archaic or else a very abbreviated version.

I would love it if Christopher (or even someone commissioned by him) would try to make one relatively coherent whole of all the Gondolin texts, though. Even if it will have to vary a lot more in style than Children of Hurin does.


And relating to this topic, I am firmly in support of Erendis, though I haven't read the story in a couple years. Aldarion was selfish, IMO.

He was certainly not without fault - but I tend to blame Erendis even more. Possibly because of the way she brings up her daughter. Although that was more because of the rift between them than causing that rift.

And I haven't read the story for quite a while either.

[Gordis]

Ha, another female poster sides with Aldarion.;)

What about the rest of you? Vote please!

[BeardofPants]

I haven't read it in a while either, but my recollection says that I sided with Aldarion as well. I'll have to re-read though & 'git back ta ya!'[/palin]

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So it's ok for a husband to disappear for months at a time, endangering his life on a hobby while neglecting his family? Wow.

[Gordis]

It is very silly and callous for a wife to believe she can change the character of her husband - any husband - but especially such a strong-willed and stubborn man as Aldarion.

She knew full well he loved the sea prior to the marriage. It was selfish and inconsiderate for her to agree to the marriage if she was not going (not even trying ) to put up with his "hobby."

[Willow Oran]

It's been a very long time since I read Aldarion and Erendis, and the reason that I haven't gone back to re-read it is that I didn't find a single one of the characters sympathetic. Both of them are too selfishly stubborn and uncompromising to make me believe that they actually cared for one another enough in the first place for the result of their marriage to be tragic. I can't even sympathize with Ancalime, who should be the character we're rooting for to break the pattern her parents started and who fails miserably in doing so.

[Gordis]

True, both are selfishly stubborn and uncompromising. I can only sympathize with Aldarion because I like arrogant men, ;) but not arrogant women. Also he was the future King, and she was a parvenu, so she should have been more pliable.

As for Ancalime, kids of in-fighting parents rarely become nice people.


The silly thing is that there was no divorce allowed in Numenor. One has to blame dumb Elvish customs, unsuitable for Men.
:p

[Earniel]

I have finally managed to re-read that tale in UT. I can't quite remember what my exact opinion was the last time around, but I find I can't side with Aldarion. I do not side with Erendis either, for some of the choices she made were still wrong either way. But I do pity her whereas it strikes me that Aldarion reaped what he sowed but undeservedly got the better end of the deal anyway.

Although I can understand people siding with Aldarion, because Tolkien does seem to hint at it too. In the story, both the King and Nuneth (Erendis' mother), whom both are wise figures, both imply that things between Erendis and Aldarion could have been fixed if she had made the reconcilliary move to fix things and accepted her fate as a mariner's wife. The fact that Erendis refused to do this (which she would have considered a total defeat) looks like a strike against her, while the same is never that much implied with Aldarion.

Aldarion also had the Middle-earth thing going for him. Erendis, who chose to focus solely on Númenor, seems in that way too narrow-minded. The story tells how Aldarion was far-sighted in his dealings in Middle-earth, setting up the Vinyalond harbour and his friendship and aid to Gil-Galad. We know Sauron is going to wake and grow strong at some point, so I think most automatically assume Aldarion is doing the right thing at the expense of his marriage. I think Aldarion gets too much credit in that department. In my view the troubles of Middle-earth was just a handy excuse for Aldarion to take to the seas. If these matters hadn't coincided with chances to go and sail the seven seas away from Númenor, I doubt he would have put that much work into it.

And Erendis attracts much antipathy in the manner she raised her daughter, feeding Ancalimë all her own frustrations and anger. Although Aldarion is not blameless in this either, and since it is mentioned Ancalimë was as obstinate as her father, I got the impression he also encouraged these characteristics of her to get back at Erendis, and so equally attributed to Ancalimë's utterly unlikable personality.

One more thing jumped out at me. Aldarion's aunt is Silmarien, from whom decended the Lords of Romenna down to Elendil, and eventually the Royal Line of Arnor and Gondor. I find myself wondering if Tolkien somewhere vaguely implied the Kingship in this case should have passed to the eldest child, which was Silmarien, instead of the first male child, which was Aldarion's father. It would have avoided this entire mess that even affected two more generations down the line. But it doesn't seem to be Tolkien's intent though, as none of the Ruling Queens of Númenor can be considered a good or successful monarch. This rather gave me the impression he didn't think women made good Rulers of Númenor.

[Gordis]

I would agree with what you say, Earniel, except that I still don't feel any sympathy for Erendis myself.

What I miss in this story is love. Maybe A and E shared some sort of love, but nothing of the kind as between Beren and Luthien, or Earendil and Elwing, or Aragorn and Arwen, or even Aragorn and Eowyn.

Do you think that in Arwen' place Erendis would have given up immortality? Of course not. She couldn't even give up the smallest of her habits, she couldn't even try and spend ONE blasted day aboard a ship!
If anything, Erendis reminds me of Lobelia, not Arwen

In fact marrying each other was a very stupid thing to do. They shouldn't have. I have an impression that Aldarion was simply too lazy to look around more and find another noble girl (or deemed it a matter of little import).

[Earniel]

I would agree with what you say, Earniel, except that I still don't feel any sympathy for Erendis myself.
I don't exactly feel sympathy for her myself. If we would meet today, I doubt we would become friends. But I do pity her.

What I miss in this story is love. Maybe A and E shared some sort of love, but nothing of the kind as between Beren and Luthien, or Earendil and Elwing, or Aragorn and Arwen, or even Aragorn and Eowyn.
If you put it like that, it would seem that most of Tolkien's successful loves involved one or more Elves! :p I sometimes wondered what kind of love-relationship Morwen and Hurin had, because they seemed so totally different in character that love between them seemed odd.

Perhaps the red thread through all those couples (apart from the last, because that was a different kind of love, it seems to me) is that they made certain sacrifices to be together and did not demand of the other more than he or she could give. I think that in Erendis and Aldarion's case they needed the other to give up more than the other was willing. Erendis' mother once chided her that (paraphrased) 'it is all or nothing, as it always was with you.' I think Aldarion was like minded, if he didn't get his way, he was always the more intent on getting it, no matter who he hurt for it. And if he felt guilt over it afterwards, he was not the sort to admit his mistake first.

I do think there was love between Erendis and Aldarion at some point. But a frail love, with too much uncertainties, and one that did not get the time to anchor itself.

Do you think that in Arwen' place Erendis would have given up immortality? Of course not. She couldn't even give up the smallest of her habits, she couldn't even try and spend ONE blasted day aboard a ship!She did try, in a fashion, I think. In the beginning she even sent Aldarion the green bough to be placed on the boat for luck, even in defiance of the King, while she did not like to see him leave for years on end either.

But the sea frightened her, as it forever reminded her that Aldarion loved the sea above all else. Would you have gone with Aldarion on a boat, knowing it could mentally destroy you? I think it was that way for Erendis. It was not just the act of going to one of Aldarion's ships, to her it was to be defeated. And Erendis wanted complete victory over the sea, anything short of that was utter defeat.

If anything, Erendis reminds me of Lobelia, not Arwen.
Hm, I don't quite see the comparison. Lobelia wasn't looking to keep her husband close, her wishes were much more material: Bag's End and the reputation that went with it. Lobelia felt cheated out of both by Bilbo's mere existance. Erendis wanted a husband that loved her and would stay with her.

In fact marrying each other was a very stupid thing to do. They shouldn't have. I have an impression that Aldarion was simply too lazy to look around more and find another noble girl (or deemed it a matter of little import).I agree they both may have been better off not marrying each other. But I think Aldarion did love Erendis in the beginning, in so far his love was large enough to include an ordinary woman besides the sea. But IMO he considered love something he could leave behind and return to at leisure, like a horse you take out for a day-trip through the country-side, but leave it in the field to fend for itself for the rest of the year when you have other pursuits.

I think he could indeed have found a more accomodating wife, one that cared less -if not at all- that he spent more than half the time of his married life away. But I think he somewhere hoped that marrying a woman out of love might just be enough to keep him coming back to Númenor. And Erendis' mind was much like his in terms of stubborness, he wanted a wife that could hold her own, not a passive flower. I think that is what attracted him to Erendis in the first place, but that this was also what eventually drove them apart.

[Voronwen]

Please vote, who do you think was more to blame in Aldarion-Erendis dysfunctional marriage.
Both of them. :(

The problem was that neither of them would yield. As someone else mentioned in this thread, true love (ideally) contains sacrifice. I do think they loved one another, but neither one would sacrifice anything for the other.

Could something remedy to the situation and what exactly?
Even if they each yielded just a little... things may have turned out better.

I can't say that i "side with" either of them, really. At first, i felt sorry for Erendis, but later in the story i thought her cold behavior toward her husband upon his return was despicable. It drove him away for good. If she hadn't been so cold and stubborn, perhaps their relationship could have been saved.

But Aldarion was as much to blame. He could have tried harder to save the marriage, too. And he also could have neglected her a little bit less.

What about the daughter, Ancalimë? Was she also to blame?
I think she was a victim. The way she was raised was attrocious. The conditions under which she was raised reminded me of some kind of weird radical-feminist convent. Poor girl, it's no wonder she turned out the way she did!

What do you think of Aldarion's family (Tar-Meneldur and his queen)- did they act wisely towards their son and daughter-in-law?
I feel that the inlaws on both sides tried to encourage their marriage to work, but in the end the headstrong nature of both husband and wife won out. Neither would listen to advice, or if they did, they chose not to take it.

The story of Ulbar's family - nice contrast to Aldarion's isn't it?
Oh, that part was so sad! It was a very stark contrast, it really drove the point home that their relationship was over. It also evoked the thought that there was still hope, but that they were each in their own way throwing it away. A warm, loving marriage is what they could have had if they had both not been so selfish and stubborn.

+ please add anything you think important or relevant
It's a very sad story, imho. It's a timeless example of how *not* to handle marital problems.

Just adding this as a detail that i appreciated: I thought that her letting go of the birds was a heart-wrenching stroke of symbolism. You just know that when they fly away back home, that it's all *over*. So sad! :( :(


All that said, of course i love it for its details about Numenor. We have so little extant that actually *takes place* there. For me it's very enjoyable on that level, even if the story itself is tragic. I wish there were more like it, perhaps happier stories. I also love the description of Numenor that preceeds the story. I could get lost there forever. :)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Do you think that in Arwen' place Erendis would have given up immortality? Of course not. She couldn't even give up the smallest of her habits, she couldn't even try and spend ONE blasted day aboard a ship!

Was that an option she was given? I either overlooked that or have forgotten it. I don't recall Aldarion once saying, "Come on, baby, we'll take a cruise together. You'll see all sorts of interesting things. I'll show you a good time, I promise."

[Gordis]

Was that an option she was given? I either overlooked that or have forgotten it. I don't recall Aldarion once saying, "Come on, baby, we'll take a cruise together. You'll see all sorts of interesting things. I'll show you a good time, I promise."

He did, DPR, he did!
Aldarion: "And then I will fit out such a ship as the Venturers made never yet, a Queen's house on the water. And you shall sail with me, Erendis, under the grace of the Valar, of Yavanna and of Oromë whom you love; you shall sail to lands where I shall show you such woods as you have never seen, where even now the Eldar sing; or forests wider than Númenor, free and wild since the beginning of days, where still you may hear the great horn of Oromë the Lord."
But Erendis wept. "Nay, Aldarion," she said. "I rejoice that the world yet holds such things as you tell of; but I shall never see them. For I do not desire it: to the woods of Númenor my heart is given. And, alas! if for love of you I took ship, I should not return. It is beyond my strength to endure; and out of sight of land I should die. "

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

He did, DPR, he did!

Good quote. How'd I forget that?

I wonder whether I overlooked it or whether I took it literally and felt like she really would die if she went on the cruise. Hmm. Maybe I should re-read the entire story, but I found it so dry and uninteresting the first time that I probably won't.