Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

Who Really Killed the Witch King?:confused:



There is much debate about who really killed the Witch King. Some say Merry killed him and Éowyn helped, and others say Merry helped and Éowyn actually killed him. I think that neither are true, Merry and Éowyn both killed him, according to the book and the movie, The Return of the King.

In ROTK (the book), Éowyn has disguised herself as a man to fight in the war. Théoden, King of Rohan and Éowyn's uncle, tried to kill the Witch King but his horse was pierced with a black arrow and Théoden was pinned under him and was badly injured. Éowyn, still disguised, ran to his aid.

She told the King of the Nazĝul to leave him alone, and the Witch King warned her that she will die. She ignores that and says that she will hinder him anyway.

He says: “Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man mat hinder me!� Then she takes off her helmet (this is my favorite part!) and says that she is no man, but Éowyn, the Lady of Rohan! The Witch King tries to kill her, but only succeeds in hurting her.

But Merry runs to her aid and stabs him in the back of the knee, giving Éowyn enough time to get up with all her remaining strength, and kill the Ringwraith. She almost died, if it were not for Aragorn's healing touch and Merry's stabbing the King.

The movie has several differences than. Merry knows that it was Éowyn, Éowyn talks to Théoden (in the book, it was Merry), and the wording is a bit different. But the end result is the same, that Éowyn killed the Witch King but not without a of of help. She might not have been able to if it were not for Merry stabbing the Nazĝul .

So in conclusion, both texts, movie or book, whichever you prefer, still says that Éowyn killed the King of the Ringwraiths. But not without some big help from Merry, of course. So I think that both of them did, it. Neither one would have been able to do what they did without each other.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.

Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.

[Jon S.]

The movie has several differences than. Merry knows that it was Éowyn
Yet another change in the movie for the better. From day one, it strained credulity to believe that Merry could ride (and otherwise hang!) for so long
with someone who, by then, he knew personally and not have any clue who it was.
There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.
You have obviously never had a serious knee injury or require knee reconstructive surgery. I have - the injury was the worst pain of my life.

Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.
Excellent point (and, I believe, definitive).

[Valandil]

There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.

I don't know... after all, do the Nazgul still have organs? At least organs on which their lives depend? I don't think so. A blow in one place might have the same effect as a blow in any other. OTOH - I agree that Eowyn struck the death blow.

Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.

Maybe so - but only a STRAIN! And I don't know if they were commonly acknowledged as such - either my Men or themselves. I think their eligibility is restored. :p

[Alcuin]

Oh, an oldie but goodie!

There is much debate about who really killed the Witch King. Some say Merry killed him and Éowyn helped, and others say Merry helped and Éowyn actually killed him. I think that neither are true, Merry and Éowyn both killed him, according to the book and the movie, The Return of the King.

Leaving aside the obvious red meat, “Do the movies have any canonicity whatsoever?” yeah, it sure looks like it took both Merry and Éowyn to kill the Witch-King. In “The Battle of the Pelennor Fields,” the text says that, [Merry] looked for his sword that he had let fall; … the blade was smoking like a dry branch … and … it … was consumed.

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs… [G]lad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it … in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was ... Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

Bombadil chose the blades from the Barrow-wight’s hoard in FotR, “Fog on the Barrow-downs”:For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvelous workmanship… Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time...

‘Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,’ he said. ‘Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, or far away into dark and danger.’ Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.

I think the short-swords were counterparts to the Nazgûl’s long knives, like the one the Witch-king used to wound Frodo on Weathertop: the Nazgûl knife drew the living into the shadow-realm, but the Dúnedain knife drew the Nazgûl back to the realm of the living.

In any case, the Witch-king apparently had sinew, either ligaments or tendons, and undead flesh, so I cast my vote for “unseen body in the shadow world,” not an incorporeal being (like the ghosts of Dunharrow). He could wear clothes, a crown, and wield both sword and mace to deadly effect: he was a man, but a man trapped in the necromantic enchantment of his fiendish master, Sauron. The nefarious effect of the Rings was to prolong or stretch one’s life, as Bilbo described to Gandalf in “A Long-expected Party”:I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.

I think that Merry’s blow activated whatever magic, enchantment, or even anti-magic (we might consider that the Barrow-blade “merely” undid Sauron’s spells), leaving the Witch-king vulnerable to injury by normal weapons: apparently, he was not so vulnerable before: he could not be killed or “unhoused” before Merry struck him with the Barrow-blade. Éowyn’s blow then decapitated him; but her sword still suffered the fate of all swords that stuck him, as Aragorn described for the hobbits on Weathertop: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.”

So here’s my position, spelled out for clean attack and dissection for any who care to sharpen their own long knives: Barrow-blade, Morgul-knife, or rusty dagger: The Witch-king has a body. It isn’t in the normal world, but rather in a shadow-world, whatever that is. (The Eldar can see into it, it would seem.) The Dúnedain of the North (Cardolan?) made at least one set of “long knives” for use in their wars with Angmar. These were buried with a fearsome keeper, the Barrow-wight (perhaps by the victorious Witch-king after destroying Cardolan?), but Bombadil chose four for the hobbits. Frodo’s was broken by the Witch-king (by magic?) on Weathertop. Merry, ignored on the battlefield by the Witch-king because he was focused on Éowyn, who was clearly “no man” and hence technically fell outside Glorfindel’s prophecy (now, why would a bad guy put such hope in a good guy’s prophecy?), got behind the bad guy, and stuck him with the knife, breaking the spell that made him invulnerable to normal weapons. Éowyn chopped off his now-vulnerable noggin, and the Witch-king was “unhoused.”What happened from there is anyone’s guess, but mine is that the Witch-king’s spirit returned to Sauron, where Sauron tormented him mercilessly: Frodo and Sam heard it pass overhead, apparently (to me) from the direction of the battlefield toward the direction of Barad-dûr; but all notions welcomed! (As long as they constructively build the thread.)

-0-

Isn’t this the second-most thoroughly-debated topic on Tolkien forums after, “Did the Balrog have wings?” And is there any reason we cannot gleefully rehash it all over again?

-0-

Oh, phoo! Here come the orcs to drag me back to the salt mines…

[Valandil]

Oh, an oldie but goodie!
:
:
-0-

Oh, phoo! Here come the orcs to drag me back to the salt mines…

I know... we'll start a petition! A petition that the Orcs would release Alcuin fom the salt mines! Surely they'll listen to reason... and respond to this humanitarian request.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I know... we'll start a petition! A petition that the Orcs would release Alcuin fom the salt mines! Surely they'll listen to reason... and respond to this humanitarian request.

We'll have to boycott salt. You can undermine (groan at pun) their business model first by reducing demand for their product.;) :D

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Good job, Alcuin.

Here's a question: Suppose Eowyn passes out as Merry slices WiKi's ligaments. What happens to the WiKi then, without Eowyn delivering the final blow?

My guess (without any research at this point) is that he's then no different from any other very old soldier of Mordor with a jacked-up leg, limping around the battlefield, trying not to get himself killed before wasting away of old age.

Any other ideas?

I think it is important to remember that the prophecy about who would kill him is just that: a prophecy. It is not a statement of magical, medical, or scientific fact based on a physical evaluation of WiKi's being. It is a statement of who would kill him, not of who could kill him. And prophecies don't all come true...

[Gordis]

Here's a question: Suppose Eowyn passes out as Merry slices WiKi's ligaments. What happens to the WiKi then, without Eowyn delivering the final blow?

My guess (without any research at this point) is that he's then no different from any other very old soldier of Mordor with a jacked-up leg, limping around the battlefield, trying not to get himself killed before wasting away of old age.
.
Old? :eek: I think it is not implied that the knife broke the spell that kept WiKi forever young and handsome, though invisible. :p It was his Ring's doing, and could hardly be broken without destroying his Ring or the One Ring.

However, there had to be other spells on the nazgul: those that resulted in semi-invulnerability of the wraiths. (You can't slay them with arrows or drown them and all blades perish that pierce them - without doing much harm). I think it was that spell that was broken.

I guess, had only Merry struck him, the WK would have been incapacitated much like any mortal man with the same injury, maybe worse - paralyzed. But there were at least 5-6 of the nazgul present on the battlefield. He could have called a buddy on a Fell Beast to carry him to Dr. Sauron's best hospital.;)

And now a little research on the matter.:)

Letter # 210. From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [Not dated; June 1958]
(Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings.)
There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)
So, even a flesh wound by a Barrow-Downs blade (what is a dagger in the thigh after all?) makes a nazgul "fall down". Would he be paralyzed? Likely, IMO. But it is not said he would be dead, just out of the game for a time at least. Perhaps the injured nazgul could be healed and this spell could be remade, given time and competent assistance.

[Gordis]

I don't know... after all, do the Nazgul still have organs? At least organs on which their lives depend? I don't think so. A blow in one place might have the same effect as a blow in any other. OTOH - I agree that Eowyn struck the death blow.


Come on, Val, don't contradict yourself. Why the blow in the face or the neck would kill him, if he doesn't depend on any organs?
You can't speak or sniff without functional lungs, without breathing. Another matter that they didn't NEED to breathe for survival (most likely) - that's why Gandalf was so confident NOT to find a drowned nazgul in the Bruinen.
And we know the nazgul didn't NEED to eat:
It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed.RC p.262
Does it mean they never ate and were unable to eat? I don't think so.

[Alcuin]

I guess, had only Merry struck him, the WK would have been incapacitated much like any mortal man with the same injury, maybe worse - paralyzed. ...

So, even a flesh wound by a Barrow-Downs blade (what is a dagger in the thigh after all?) makes a nazgul "fall down". Would he be paralyzed? Likely, IMO. But it is not said he would be dead, just out of the game for a time at least. Perhaps the injured nazgul could be healed and this spell could be remade, given time and competent assistance.He wasn’t paralyzed: the Witch-king was on all fours. His first reaction should be to try to get up, but he can’t because one of his knees is out of commission.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Old? I think it is not implied that the knife broke the spell that kept WiKi forever young and handsome, though invisible. It was his Ring's doing, and could hardly be broken without destroying his Ring or the One Ring.
I was thinking the spell that was broken, "the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will," was the Ring-spell. Surely, destroying his Ring would break that spell, but why believe that is the only way to break it?

He isn't wearing the Ring. Therefore, its grasp on him is to some extent tenuous.

[Alcuin]

And we know the nazgul didn't NEED to eat:

Does it mean they never ate and were unable to eat? I don't think so.That’s a great thought: I wonder Sauron trapped one of the Nazgûl by offering a Ring as a weight-loss aid or diet supplement?

[Gordis]

Ahh, Alcuin, I never had time to answer to your first post... I am working hard myself in the salt mines...;) But I mostly agree with you.

He wasn’t paralyzed: the Witch-king was on all fours. His first reaction should be to try to get up, but he can’t because one of his knees is out of commission.

It would be certainly true, if it were a mortal man we were discussing. I also thought it applicable to the WK - as you do - but now I am confused about this quote from the letter 210 about the Weathertop scene. Please, read it again.
There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)
Zimmerman didn't take into the account the spell on the blades: Sam gives a nazgul a minor wound and nothing drastic happens. Tolkien points out that Sam's blade (any blade) would be destroyed AND the nazgul would have fallen down. Now why would he fall from a minor wound? Because of the spell, most certainly. So the WK also was hurt worse than a mortal man with the same injury.

OK, then in your first post, Alcuin, you advance the idea that the Barrow blade moves the nazgul back into the World of living, making him vulnerable to other weapons.
I agree that the Barrow blade breaks Sauron's "invulnerability" spell:
I think that Merry’s blow activated whatever magic, enchantment, or even anti-magic (we might consider that the Barrow-blade “merely� undid Sauron’s spells), leaving the Witch-king vulnerable to injury by normal weapons: apparently, he was not so vulnerable before: he could not be killed or “unhoused� before Merry struck him with the Barrow-blade. Éowyn’s blow then decapitated him; but her sword still suffered the fate of all swords that stuck him, as Aragorn described for the hobbits on Weathertop: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.�
Yes.
But I am not sure I agree with this:
the Nazgûl knife drew the living into the shadow-realm, but the Dúnedain knife drew the Nazgûl back to the realm of the living.
Maybe, maybe... but if a nazgul is drawn into the world of the living, wouldn't he become visible in the first place? And that didn't happen:
Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.
There was still nothing visible between crown and mantle when she struck - thus I doubt the nazgul was back in the World of light.

I disagree with DPR that the "invulnerability" spell is the same Ring-spell that makes a former Man an invisible immortal wraith. I think it was something else added by Sauron, maybe back in the Second Age. The Nine Rings made the nazgul immortal, like elves, but as Elves they could be killed by ordinary means. Likely Sauron tried to remedy to that.

Oh if I had more time to discuss this nice oldie...:(

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

Thank you everyone for your comments!!! i appreciate them!!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

the "invulnerability" spell
I have never heard of such a thing until this thread. Got any support that such a spell existed? I'm not fully versed in HoME or Letters, so I'm willing to be educated on this point. Or is such a spell inferred from context in LotR itself?

[Gordis]

I have never heard of such a thing until this thread. Got any support that such a spell existed? I'm not fully versed in HoME or Letters, so I'm willing to be educated on this point. Or is such a spell inferred from context in LotR itself?

Only inferred.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hmm. It is my belief that there is/was just one spell on WiKi, the Ring-induced one, and the barrow-blade broke it. I have no textual support for this either, but the simplest answer is usually the best, IMO.

[Alcuin]

...I am not sure I agree with this:the Nazgûl knife drew the living into the shadow-realm, but the Dúnedain knife drew the Nazgûl back to the realm of the living.Maybe, maybe... but if a nazgul is drawn into the world of the living, wouldn't he become visible in the first place? And that didn't happen:Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her.There was still nothing visible between crown and mantle when she struck - thus I doubt the nazgul was back in the World of light. Speculation on my part about how the knives – both Barrow-blade and Morgul-knife – might operate. They may have no similar function (besides, this is all fantasy magic!), but they do seem to be mirrors of one another, do they not? The Morgul-knife drew Frodo into the shadow-world. The Barrow-blade made the Witch-king vulnerable to Éowyn’s blow.

Of course, there is that citation of Aragorn: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.� That indicates that the Witch-king had been pierced – wounded – before, but either the wounds were without effect, or he healed (presumably necromantically, since normal healing would not likely be possible), or he was simply invulnerable (in which case Aragorn was either mistaken, speaking poetically, or I misunderstand Tolkien’s text).

Clearly, though, something filled the clothing the Witch-king wore, and that something was his physical body, albeit transferred into the shadow-world. Gandalf alluded to their situation in his conversation with Frodo after the hobbit awoke in Rivendell: You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you. The indication is that they still possessed physical bodies, but in the wraith-world.

There is a passage in Morgoth’s Ring, “Aman and Mortal Men�, pp 429-430, explaining that any Mortal who entered Aman or Valinor did not lose his Mortality, as Sauron convinced Ar-Pharazôn, but the natural balance between the hröa (body) and fëa (soul) would be upset. Once in Valinor, it was believed the fëa of a Mortal would seek to leave the hröa, and that if it were unable to do this, the fëa would go mad; while if the fëa departed, the hröa would act without guidance, effectively becoming a monster. Sauron’s necromancy seems to me to have duplicated this trap for Mortals through the Rings in Middle-earth.

Thank you everyone for your comments!!! i appreciate them!!Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!

Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh...

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

"Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!

Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh.."


thanks a lot, Alcuin! Very funny!!

[Gordis]

Firstly I want to state that I have not a slightest doubt that the nazgul had physical bodies, albeit invisible.

Secondly, if we go speculating,;) I also have a theory. :p I believe the WK had been pierced by a blade before, but not necessarily by a Barrow-blade. I think the major difference between ordinary blades and BD blades is that the former disintegrate at once, at the first contact with nazgul blood - so they simply can't do much damage. The enspelled blades do disintegrate, but later, after the damage is done.


Speculation on my part about how the knives – both Barrow-blade and Morgul-knife – might operate. They may have no similar function (besides, this is all fantasy magic!), but they do seem to be mirrors of one another, do they not? The Morgul-knife drew Frodo into the shadow-world. The Barrow-blade made the Witch-king vulnerable to Éowyn’s blow.
But Frodo had been vulnerable to the nazgul blow before - as was any living thing. So the situation is different, IMO

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

WiKi had to have been stabbed by a blade before. Otherwise, how could anyone know to state that "all blades perish" that pierce him?

[Gordis]

Exactly. But it wasn't necessarily a Barrow-blade...

[Butterbeer]

.... flogging dead horses are we?

Well.. it's below burning dead badgers, and flombaying ferrets in my normal hobbies list...

but heh-ho .... those of us that are feverish and in bed cannot be picky ;)


................

some thoughts:

Concur on the especial relevance of the barrow-blades and Alcuin has noted the relevant passage already that no oher blade would be so deadly...

and therefore Gor (hello bw :)) as Sam had also one of these very same blades ... had he smitten a wraith as the movie mogul wanted..it is therefore consistent of ol' JRR to comment he would have stumbled or fallen -

i must say also that though sometimes we men DO think Women come from another planet sometimes... i think it fair that they are by dent of being 'man' inthe sense that, say... a hobbit can be deemed part man -

ie Human - i always thought it a bit odd that part - but there you see the prophecy was not designating the species at all

it was far more literal :D ... in theory an effeminate or homosexual male that considered himself 'no man' may have done the trick...

which, given the inevitable remakes down the years to come... gives pause for thought :eek:

;)



..........................


Did the Nazgul eat, regardless of need?

WEll.. it is almost Canon now that they were fond of strawberries - but as JRR never (sadly) got the chance to verify this...that must, ultimately be left open for consideration....


For myself, i am not sure the nazgul were impervious to normal blows per se..more that the barrow blades were specialised with runes and had special import to the Witch king -

cleaarly, he seems to have thought long and well on the prophecy... this in itself lends itself to the idea that he could suffer pyhsical damage -

the question more specifically to my mind is: how much did the barrow blades and their runes and even perhaps their age... make him vulnerable to actually sever his fëa from whatever wraith form his hröa actually exhibited or co-existed at / in?


as to the initial question, well one must say Eowyn did it..but surely Merry's part was instrumental in it -

but it is fatuous in the extreme to start down that path... for to do so would lead to a cast of thousands...for eg we could say merry ol Tom was jointly, albiet tennuously part of the team :p


..can you imagine if they started handing out medals or Gongs?.. it would go on longer than the Oscars ;)



Best BB

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think it could have been a Barrow-blade. I think without fairly quick aid from Sauron, a Barrow-blade would have killed him.

[Gordis]

Well, Wiki himself was not bad in sorcery...:p Maybe a puncture by a Morgul knife could help?:eek:

[Gordis]

Hi, BB, nice to meet you!:)

but it is fatuous in the extreme to start down that path... for to do so would lead to a cast of thousands...for eg we could say merry ol Tom was jointly, albiet tennuously part of the team :p


..can you imagine if they started handing out medals or Gongs?.. it would go on longer than the Oscars ;)

Right. I have even read a fic that tries to convince the readers that another runner for that Oscar was ...Legolas. :eek:
How so? He killed a Fell Beast with an arrow - and it was the best FB of the nine, so at the Pelennor , the poor Wiki got a much inferior, very stupid beast who didn't know how to bite without exposing its neck to angry Rohan girls.:D

So, it was Legolas who killed Wiki!:D

[Butterbeer]

..you've convinced me ! ;)

well, case closed then, heh? It was Legolas! :cool:

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Yeah, but if Thranduil hadn't gotten jiggy with Leggy's mom then that wouldn't have been possible. I credit SEX with the entire affair! :D

[Gordis]

Also if Glorfy hadn't made his funny prophesy, then the WK wouldn't sit transfixed peering at the girl, but instead he would have hit her with the mace right away, before Merry had time to crawl behind - or he would have killed both.
'Tis all Elven conspiracy!:(:eek:

[Alcuin]

WEll.. it is almost Canon now that they were fond of strawberries - but as JRR never (sadly) got the chance to verify this...that must, ultimately be left open for consideration....Strawbabies? Nazgûl gots strawbabies?


http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/nazgul.jpg

[Attalus]

I was thinking the spell that was broken, "the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will," was the Ring-spell. Surely, destroying his Ring would break that spell, but why believe that is the only way to break it?

He isn't wearing the Ring. Therefore, its grasp on him is to some extent tenuous.I agree with this, but I disagree with the statement made elsewhere that the W-K was not paralysed. 'knit his unseen sinews to his will" to me sounds like the spell that allowed his consciousness to control his undead body.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I agree with this, but I disagree with the statement made elsewhere that the W-K was not paralysed. 'knit his unseen sinews to his will" to me sounds like the spell that allowed his consciousness to control his undead body.

And "his will" was controlled to a great extent by Sauron via his ring, therefore my deduction that this spell that was broken by Merry's stab was indeed the ring-spell. If Merry's stab left WiKi's "unseen sinews" mere invisible flesh without will (paralyzed, if you will), then he was a sitting duck for Eowyn's death-blow.

[Rían]

we need the popcorn-eating smilie on this board!

[Noble Elf Lord]

To cut the long story short, let's just say that I agree with Alcuin's first post. Great ideas. Which is not to say that others wouldn't have had good ones too. :)

[Attalus]

we need the popcorn-eating smilie on this board!
How's this? http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Laurielover/popcornsmiley2.gif

[Attalus]

then he was a sitting duck for Eowyn's death-blow.As I understand, this is indeed the case. That is why he didn't raise his mace for another blow.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I believe we're all in agreement mostly.

[Attalus]

Huh, where are the Merry-killed-the-Witch-King-and-Eowyn-was-just-a-spectator loons when you want them? :evil:

[frodomerryandaragornrock]

here's another supporter of my case that i found on another lotr website (not like there'e any of those, right??:rolleyes:) :http://www.barrowdowns.com/articles_barnaul_lordofnazgul.php

THANX every1!!!

[Attalus]

here's another supporter of my case that i found on another lotr website (not like there'e any of those, right??:rolleyes:) :http://www.barrowdowns.com/articles_barnaul_lordofnazgul.php

THANX every1!!!Good article, but I don't beleive the central premise: that anyone on the field could have killed the W-K, once Merry got in his admittedly utterly vital stab. Glorfindel's prophecy was "“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.� I suppose that the poster is interpreting "fall" literally, and the W-K indeed stumbles after Merry's hit, but I feel that in the context and language used, "fall" means being killed. Tolkien was, of course familiar with the Delphic tradition of oracles that say a thing that could mean different things, and this was one he even referred to: Gandalf saying: "Of course, absurdly simple, like most riddles..." I also note that this conceit (if I may call it so) was continued from the earliest version of the tale.

[Rían]

i must say also that though sometimes we men DO think Women come from another planet sometimes...
*tries to hide her luggage tags*

How's this? http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Laurielover/popcornsmiley2.gif
Looks good! Thanks! http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Laurielover/popcornsmiley2.gif

[Gordis]

Good article, but I don't beleive the central premise: that anyone on the field could have killed the W-K, once Merry got in his admittedly utterly vital stab. Glorfindel's prophecy was "“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.�

I think we are back to the "could" and "would" argument.:) Another nice oldie.

Could a man kill the WK, given the opportunity? Sure he could - but he wouldn't get this opportunity.

Could a woman and a hobbit with a Barrow-blade kill the WK back in TA 1975? Yes they could - exactly in the same manner as in TA 3019. But would they be given the chance? No, as the prophecy said "Far off is his doom". Thus the WK basically had nothing to fear for a very long time after the prophesy had been made: men, women, Elves, Dwarves, falling meteorites, drunken orcs, hungry fellbeasts, angry Sauron - there was nothing that would bring about his doom before the time was ripe.

[Alcuin]

To say that anyone could have killed the Witch-king once Merry had stabbed him with the barrow-blade misses the point of prophecy. The point is not that “anyone could have done it�: the point is that Glorfindel, taken “in the Spirit� – seeing all the lines of action across time in one instant, as if all the veils of time were suddenly swept aside for him for that passing moment – foresaw that the Lord of the Nazgûl, a fierce and terrifying enemy that had not only collapsed the important state of Arnor and nearly annihilated all the northern Dúnedain, but then escaped! that this seemingly unconquerable opponent would indeed fall, but not by the “hand of man.�

You’re also looking at this from the point of view of the “good guys.� Think about it for a moment from the point of view of the “bad guys.� The Witch-king must have been emboldened in attack: after all, he was, in his own mind, invulnerable. He is much like Macbeth in Act 5, Scene 7 (http://shakespeare.mit.edu/macbeth/macbeth.5.7.html):
What's he
That was not born of woman? Such a one
Am I to fear, or none.
Consequently in the final act (http://shakespeare.mit.edu/macbeth/macbeth.5.7.html),
MACBETH
Thou losest labour:
As easy mayst thou the intrenchant air
With thy keen sword impress as make me bleed:
Let fall thy blade on vulnerable crests;
I bear a charmed life, which must not yield,
To one of woman born.
MACDUFF
Despair thy charm;
And let the angel whom thou still hast served
Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother's womb
Untimely ripp'd.
MACBETH
Accursed be that tongue that tells me so,
For it hath cow'd my better part of man!
And be these juggling fiends no more believed,
That palter with us in a double sense;
That keep the word of promise to our ear,
And break it to our hope. I'll not fight with thee.
I believe the parallels between the Witch-king and Macbeth have been drawn before, particularly concerning the prophecy. But in both cases, the prophecy gives the villain hope of immortality, or in fail of that, endless longevity. One striking difference is that Macbeth declines at first to fight Macduff, relenting only reluctantly when Macduff demands his abject surrender.

The Witch-king, on the other hand, after a brief internal debate, took the other tack. He assaulted Éowyn with all his might, “with a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom�; if not for Merry, he would have killed her, and from the description of the fight, “his eyes glittered,� he believed he had won.

But why did he ignore Merry? He had seen the hobbits at Weathertop, and he knew how at least one had then been armed: all the Nazgûl save he had hung back when Frodo drew his barrow-blade there. No, his focus, his fury, his face were set against Éowyn. Why? Because of the Prophecy of the North. Éowyn challenged him:But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.Besides the strong similarities in what Éowyn and Macduff tell their respective nemeses, Éowyn’s speech focuses all the Witch-king’s attention, all his thought, on her. Without that, it would have been more difficult – perhaps impossible – for Merry to approach him stealthily from behind and strike that all-important blow.

The Witch-king, like Macbeth, relied upon prophecy for his inspiration and hope. (The differences in their effects might be explained this way: Macbeth’s prophecy was spoken by fiends, and so when revealed to cheat his hope, left him depressed; while the Witch-king’s was spoken by something like unto a saint and so invigorated him in the end, even though it spoke of – and presaged – his doom.) Without the Prophecy of the North, the Witch-king would likely have been more wary, and certainly less intimidated by Éowyn! But importantly, he would have been less likely to ignore Merry. Each prophecy worked as a trap for the villain.

Could “anyone� have struck the Witch-king after Merry cut him? Perhaps: but that was not the prophecy, and it without the prophecy, the Witch-king might not have been killed at all.

[Gordis]

Great post, Alcuin. I have seen people make parallels with Macbeth many times, but haven't seen "Macbeth" quoted. Very interesting.


The Witch-king, on the other hand, after a brief internal debate, took the other tack. He assaulted Éowyn with all his might, “with a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom�; if not for Merry, he would have killed her, and from the description of the fight, “his eyes glittered,� he believed he had won.
I am not sure that his internal debate led to the decision to fight Eowyn. It looks like while he was thinking, the Fell Beast got bored and attacked on its own:
The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. [...] but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded [Merry] no more than a worm in the mud.
Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Then, Eowyn killed the beast - and that was instrumental in killing the Nazgul Lord. That led to several things.

1.The WK got really upset and angry about the fate of his mount - a rarest species on the ME Red List of Threatened Animals:eek:. Note also that the Nazgul Lord personally helped Sauron in developing the Winged Beast project (RC).

2. The WK became stranded and couldn't retreat - at least with dignity

3. The sun was shining, Sauron's pall of Darkness had been blown away and thus the WK had difficulty seeing the World of Light. He couldn't use the sight of his mount as he did before, so he became practically blind.

But why did he ignore Merry? He had seen the hobbits at Weathertop, and he knew how at least one had then been armed: all the Nazgûl save he had hung back when Frodo drew his barrow-blade there. No, his focus, his fury, his face were set against Éowyn. Why? Because of the Prophecy of the North.


Yes, plus what I said above. The WK was also very angry and practically blind. No wonder he didn't notice Merry.

[Attalus]

I have to say that this thread has discussed the question more intelligently and with less heat than I have ever seen done. The "losing" poster often quite sth forum in disgust. Great job, everyone.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Entmoot has to be the friendliest board I've found. Not the place to come for a good knock-down, drag-out but certainly a nice place for good, well thought out opinions.

[Alcuin]

The WK was also very angry and practically blind. No wonder he didn't notice Merry.He could see Éowyn well enough to attack her without any trouble.

I had not before considered, though, that to him, the dawning light might have caused a dimming to his vision. Aragorn said that the noonday sun obscured their vision: he wasn’t blind just yet.

You might consider that, from the time the Rider rose up from the dead beast until the moment Eowyn decapitated him, probably took less than 2 minutes. It all happened very quickly.

[Gordis]

He could see Éowyn well enough to attack her without any trouble.
You sure he excatly "saw" her as a mortal man would? How could he miss the interesting curves of her body? :D

WK: "Stand not betwee... OWW! ... Well, I guess you may keep the old king, my beauty: he is as good as dead anyway... Say, care for a ride on my Fell Beast? I will bear thee away... beyond all darkness...."

Artwork by Allor (open at your peril):
http://www.allor.ramot.ru/images/humor/ang-vin.jpg

[Gordis]

Well that was an attempt at humor. Now let us turn serious.
I had not before considered, though, that to him, the dawning light might have caused a dimming to his vision. Aragorn said that the noonday sun obscured their vision: he wasn’t blind just yet.
To be precise let us consider these quotes:

For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys, and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also, the Ring draws them." - Aragorn, A Knife in the Dark, Fellowship of the Ring
"The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day, when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist." * Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring), Reader's Companion by Hammond and Scull, p. 164
So by day (even without the sun) Nazgul sight was obscured by mist, and people appeared as pale shadows. At noon, with the sun out, the shapes disappeared entirely - the nazgul became blind. By day the nazgul used the sight of their horses and beasts - but for that they had to be riding, I believe. Also they could smell blood and feel (by some other senses) the presence of other beings.

Now let us follow the events of March 15 paying attention to light and darkness.

1. At the Gate. It is very dark: regular night + Sauron's Darkness. The WK prepares to fight Gandalf whom he sees clearly (because it is dark and probably because Gandalf the White shines in the Spirit World). Also the WK is mounted. Note: the WK has chosen a sword as his weapon, not a mace.

2. Theoden's attack on the Pelennor. Fey Theoden seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed

3. The Witch-King (now astride his Fell Beast) flies to Theoden and produces a patch of darkness around him. But lo! suddenly in the midst of the glory of the king his golden shield was dimmed. The new morning was blotted from the sky. Dark fell about him. Horses reared and screamed. Men cast from the saddle lay grovelling on the ground.
‘To me! To me!’ cried Théoden. ‘Up Eorlingas! Fear no darkness!’ But Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him. The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. It seems that using his own darkness (or was it simply the shadow of the Fell Beast's wings?) and the Fell Beast's eyesight, the WK was able to use a crossbow and hit Theoden's horse. Not a high precision shot, if he was aiming at Theoden, but not bad either.

4. Now Eowyn faces the WK, still within the patch of darkness mentioned above. There some paces from [Merry] sat the great beast, and all seemed dark about it, and above it loomed the Nazgûl Lord like a shadow of despair…. A great black mace he wielded. Note the mace in WK's hand: this brutal weapon doesn't need such a high precision as a sword or darts - you can just strike at the spot where you feel/perceive/smell an enemy.

5. Now Eowyn kills the Fell Beast and the shadow vanishes with it. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.. Decidedly, it looks like the shadow was caused by the Fell Beast, not the WK himself. Hmm…

6. The final scene takes place in the sunlight. The wrathful WK attacks Eowyn with the mace. He never misses (unlike in the movie). One hit - and her arm is broken, shield shattered. Another stroke - and she would be dead. Then from behind, unheeded, crawls Merry with the Barrow-blade and strikes.
Note:.it is morning, not noon, but the sun is out. Both Eowyn and Merry would look like pale shadows to the WK - shadows in the mist. The help of the Fell Beasts eyesight is denied to him. Could he rely on smell? Hardly - there was the smell of blood all around on that battlefield, and also the Fell Beast stank foully. What about "other senses?" I guess they could help a lot in dark and loneliness, but again, hardly in the middle of a battlefield, with live/wounded/dead humans all around. Also, using "other senses" might have required concentration, and all the WK's attention was on Eowyn.

Actually it is the unique appearance of a lone nazgul fighting unmounted under the sun. They must have avoided such situations like a plague - it had to be perilous.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If while the beast was alive, the shadow cast was upon Eowyn, then the sunrise was behind him.

When WiKi faced Eowyn, the sun was facing her, making her difficult to see.
Likewise, had the WiKi turned to look behind him where Merry crept up, he would be looking into the sun, further obscuring his vision. He kept the sun to his back, along with Merry.

[Gordis]

Very likely, DPR.
The Rohirrim were coming from the North, while the WK likely kept his beast somewhere on the road to Osgiliath, if not in Osgiliath itself. Thus he was likely coming from the East when he attacked Theoden and indeed had sunrise behind his back.

Here is K.W. Fonstad's map:http://Pelennor (http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/HDR/thumbs/imagepages/siege%20of%20pelennor.html)

[Attalus]

You sure he excatly "saw" her as a mortal man would? How could he miss the interesting curves of her body? :D

WK: "Stand not betwee... OWW! ... Well, I guess you may keep the old king, my beauty: he is as good as dead anyway... Say, care for a ride on my Fell Beast? I will bear thee away... beyond all darkness...."

Artwork by Allor (open at your peril):
http://www.allor.ramot.ru/images/humor/ang-vin.jpg

Ha, I like this one better, by Frank Frazetta:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Laurielover/EowynandtheNazgul.jpg

[Alcuin]

Ha, I like this one better, by Frank Frazetta:I thought “Dernhelm” looked like all the other riders, just smaller in stature and build. “He” seems to have lost his breeches here.

The swordstroke looks correct, though. (I was always under the impression that Eowyn’s blow against the beast might have been a backhand stroke, but I’m not sure she could generate enough energy to sever the head that way.)

The art is certainly attractive!


-|-


[added later]


The medieval mace is a weapon for use against armor. A sword at the gate might have another meaning altogether.

Historically, the mace is an exceedingly primitive weapon in terms of its age and use. The Egyptians perfected it before the First Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_Macehead). Narmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer), first Pharaoh of both Upper and Lower Egypt, is depicted using a highly sophisticated mace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Macehead) in the famed Narmer Palette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette), which is over 5,000 years old. (I.e., it’s a little older than the Witch-king was when he died.)

The medieval mace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)#European_Middle_Ages) was generally spiked or flanged (perhaps the Witch-king’s mace was flanged) for the purpose of piercing armor. A peasant during the Middle Ages might have carried a pike or spear or axe or even a sword, but only a nobleman would carry a mace, because he would definitely have to attack an opponent through armor.

From a practical standpoint, the Witch-king’s choice of mace as weapon – along with the “dart,” which I agree must have come from a crossbow – was entirely practical: he would be using his mace against armored cavalrymen whom he would likely be attacking from above (i.e., hitting them on their armored noggins). In this case, the mace is also a far more aggressive choice: it indicates that he intends to strike the person, and not the mount.

He might well have had both sword and mace with him on the flying beast: again, the mace is the logical choice over the sword, which might or might not provide a cut on the first attack; but the mace broke Éowyn’s shieldarm right away. Even if the sword was his preferred weapon, the mace in this case was a better choice: he knew he might be dealing with the Prophecy of the North, and the mace was more likely to bring down his opponent faster and with less risk to himself, particularly if, as he likely judged it, that opponent was a woman much smaller than he.

[Gordis]

Ha, I like this one better, by Frank Frazetta:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Laurielover/EowynandtheNazgul.jpg

I like Frazetta too. Have you seen the next picture? Our shielmaiden turns into a damsel in distress. (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/frazzetta/pelennor.jpg)

Alcuin, you are right about the mace, but still, using it hardly needs as much precision as using a sword.
I am glad you agree about nazgul carrying crossbows - I have seen it argued to death that the dart was NOT from the nazgul, couldn't be etc...

[Alcuin]

I have seen it argued to death that the dart was NOT from the nazgul, couldn't be etc...Really? :confused: There do not seem to be any other Morgul forces round about at the time: they seem to have been at some distance. What would be the argument, that it was a stray arrow from some other part of the battlefield?

-|-

…Of course, if the Witch-king used a crossbow to put a quarrel into Snowmane, that would seem to indicate that he had a pretty good indication of Théoden’s position and movement across the field, particularly from a moving mount. Historically, firing a bow from horseback is a life-long pursuit: you start your training from childhood, like the Huns or the Mongols, or the Comanche or the Apache. I suppose firing a crossbow would be more like firing a pistol or rifle from horseback, but those are not easy, either.

[Gordis]

What would be the argument, that it was a stray arrow from some other part of the battlefield?
No, it was mostly "blind wraiths don't shoot arrows" :rolleyes: and if they do, the arrows remain in the Spirit world and don't hit the physical bodies.:confused: Also, PJ image of the Fellbeasts lifting horses in their talons is imprinted in people's brains - in this case hitting a horse with a dart would be unnecessary. :D

[Alcuin]

...PJ image of the Fellbeasts lifting horses in their talons is imprinted in people's brains...Hm. Tolkien does say that the flying beast “settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long, naked neck.� But I think that lifting them up and about was a cinematic invention akin to the “speaking� or roaring Balrog, Aragorn’s using a sword at Weathertop, and Elrond’s bringing Andúril to Aragorn at Dunharrow because his scheme to send Arwen into the West had failed.

I would imagine that, if Khamûl was the most confused by sunlight, the Witch-king was probably the least bothered by it, and probably enjoyed the best “vision� of the normal world as we would understand it.

[Zilbanne]

Hi All! Does anybody remember Pippin's attitude when he and Gandalf first came to the main gate upon their arrival at Gondor? Pippin really hotly denies that he is a man, when Gandalf refers to him as one, to the gate guards. Pippin proclaims himself a Hobbit and not a man. Pippin also says he has not come of age yet in his own country. Though mentioning his adolescence here doesn't have much relevance to my point.

Adult male Hobbits are described as men in a kind of way, through descriptive simplicity and perhaps because of a lack of other pronouns in common speech :). Yet they are not men are in the same way as Aragorn or Faramir are.

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status.

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it.

_Zilbanne

[Jon S.]

Excellent observation, Zilbanne, whether correct or not (who knows for sure?).

[Gordis]

Hm. Tolkien does say that the flying beast “settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long, naked neck.” But I think that lifting them up and about was a cinematic invention akin to the “speaking” or roaring Balrog,
Yes, the beast was a carrion-feeder - it was ready to gobble down a portion of Snowmane and maybe also Theoden (though with his mail and helm he could have been hard to swallow).

But do carrion-birds carry the carcasses of the dead beasts away? I don't think they do. Actually, all bird bones are tubular: hollow inside and very light. It was also true for flying dinosaurs, IIRC. Thus, being light themselves, the birds can hardly carry a great weight, exceeding their own.

Now the Fell Beast already carries the Nazgul King (who weights, I believe, exactly the same as a living man of the same great stature), his armor, clothes, weapons (including the heavy mace) and likely a saddle. The poor beast is heavily burdened as it is, and I don't believe it can lift much in addition: certainly not a horse. Remember the Eagles complaining about Gandalf's weight? One carried him from Isengard to Edoras, but no further - and Gandalf was not armored and smaller then the WK.

This said, I don't believe in Fell Beasts (with riders) lifting up horses.

Zilbanne, welcome here! :)You are a lucky one - you discuss this old WK-Eowyn-the prophecy question for the very first time. Have fun!;)

You are quite right mentioning Pippin denying being a Man. He is "no Man" in the same way as Macduff is not "of woman born" - not quite, but enough to fit with the prophecy. Same way Eowyn is of Men, but "no man." There is a trick in the prophecy, it proved to be not as straightforward as it looked. It would have been much less interesting if Glorfindel meant an Elf or a Dwarf, would it?

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status
I agree. + Merry was extremely favored by the circumstances: WK's attention being elsewhere, his vision impaired, nobody watching his back. Had Merry tried to face the nazgul head on, he would have been squashed like a midge, Barrow-blade or not.

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it. Here I have to disagree. I think IF Eomer had the chance to hit the WK with Merry's blade, the effect would have been exactly the same: the nazgul would have fallen down.
But the problem is that Eomer wouldn't get the opportunity for this hit - the circumstances wouldn't favor him, because it would make Glorfindel's prophecy untrue.

I am not sure I managed to explain my position well enough, though…. Did you get my meaning?

[Zilbanne]

Thanks for the welcome GORDIS! Yes I think I understand your position about making prophecy come true. - Sorry I'm not good at handling quotes within the messages yet.

Are Hobbits closer to Men in their essence as a Middle Earth race than Elves or Dwarves? So that Hobbits are better to realize the prophecy? It seems so to me. Good J.R.R. understood those cheerful hole dwellers to be akin to all that was comfortable to himself in England.


Yes GORDIS I guess possibly Eomer could have knocked the Nazgul down. I see your position; Eomer simply would never have the opportunity to hit the Witch King the way Merry did was because it would go against the prophecy.

Part of what helped Merry, was that he was disregarded like a worm in the mud. Head on it would have been very different for this brave Hobbit, I agree with that.

However I can't make out that if Eomer was able to hit the witch king, if it would have been as helpful as Merry's blow, to Eowyn, or not. I think for you GORDIS, if the prophecy were set aside, the physical effect on the nazgul would be the same if Eomer hit him first and not Merry? History didn't live itself out that way, so we won't know:). But therein is compelling mystery!

Somehow I think beyond the prophecy, that Merry had a special attribution just by the fact that he was a Hobbit, to assist in killing the WK, that a man wouldn't have. Sort of like Frodo's ability to withstand the poison from the morgul blade for so long. Strider, Gandalf and Elrond knew that a man with Frodo's type of wound would have been overcome much more quickily. So that in edition to that special weapon, Merry's peculiar Hobbit hardiness aided him specifically in hurting the Nazgul.



Honestly I can't find Glorfindel's prophecy in print. " Sigh "

Rob Inglis has been reading Middle Earth to me lately. I seem to have left the best my eyes under a much danced upon table at a popular Inn in Bree:).


A heart swelling aside here.... I love visiting Middle Earth because it's so comfortably familliar yet enticingly exotic and foreign all at the same time!


******

Zounds! Now I want a set of nazgul shaped bowling pins and a blessed set of glowing blue, Gondolin made bowling balls to go with them!

**********************************
Knock down some nazgul for all the free people of Middle Earth!

_Zilbanne

[Gordis]

Somehow I think beyond the prophecy, that Merry had a special attribution just by the fact that he was a Hobbit, to assist in killing the WK, that a man wouldn't have. Sort of like Frodo's ability to withstand the poison from the morgul blade for so long. Strider, Gandalf and Elrond knew that a man with Frodo's type of wound would have been overcome much more quickily. So that in edition to that special weapon, Merry's peculiar Hobbit hardiness aided him specifically in hurting the Nazgul.


You have a good point here. Normally a living Man facing a Nazgul (and especially the WK) would be turned into jelley by fear. That is exactly what had happened to the knights of Theoden's entourage:
But lo! suddenly in the midst of the glory of the king his golden shield was dimmed. The new morning was blotted from the sky. Dark fell about him. Horses reared and screamed. Men cast from the saddle lay grovelling on the ground. [...] The knights of his house lay slain about him, or else mastered by the madness of their steeds were borne far away.
Only two persons were able to overcome the terror: Eowyn (who actively sought death) and the hobbit, though at first Merry succumbed as well: Merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick.‘King’s man! King’s man!’ his heart cried within him. ‘You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, you said.’ But his will made no answer, and his body shook. He dared not open his eyes or look up.But then hobbit curiosity made him open his eyes and "the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke".

I guess the horror of the nazgul worked not so strongly on Hobbits than on the regular Men, much like the Morgul-poison also affected them to a lesser degree.

[Alcuin]

Normally a living Man facing a Nazgul (and especially the WK) would be turned into jelley by fear. That is exactly what had happened to the knights of Theoden's entourage:
...
Only two persons were able to overcome the terror: Eowyn (who actively sought death) and the hobbit, though at first Merry succumbed as well: The Dúnedain that Aragorn assigned to guard Sarn Ford (“stone ford”) over the Baranduin held off all Nine Black Riders during the day, but broke and ran at night. Besides Éowyn, Aragorn had courage to face the Nazgûl and fought several of them together at Weathertop. Faramir fought them courageously, too, but was finally overcome by Black Breath; I think, though, that we should account him most brave, and overcome in part by his father’s seeming unlove and rejection, as Gandalf diagnosed him.

I think the implication of the backstory is that there were others with such courage, too. The Steward Boromir endured a Morgul wound that was properly treated, though he still died of pain 12 years later, for instance. Of him, “The Stewards” in Appendix A in RotK says,Boromir son of Denethor [I] (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was named) defeated [the uruks out of Mordor that invaded Ithilien]… Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him.

-|-

Honestly I can't find Glorfindel's prophecy in print. " Sigh "Look in Return of the King, Appendix A, section (iv), “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion,” just in front of the section marked “The Stewards.” It isn’t in the section about Arnor: it’s in the material discussing Eärnur, the last king of Gondor, and the role he played in the defeat of the Witch-king and his army of Angmar at Fornost.

[Gordis]

The Dúnedain that Aragorn assigned to guard Sarn Ford (“stone ford”) over the Baranduin held off all Nine Black Riders during the day, but broke and ran at night.
Yes, but that was a ford across Baranduin - a large river. Perhaps the nazgul were more hindered by running water than by rangers.

Edit: I mean, what if the River was a barrier to the nazgul fear-spell? What if they had to cross first and then and only then their terror would hit the Dunedain full force?

At night even the most steadfast of the rangers gave way, but some ran away from the start
The hearts even of the Dunedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away. - UT, the hunt for the Ring

Besides Éowyn, Aragorn had courage to face the Nazgûl and fought several of them together at Weathertop.
Did he really fight anyone? ;)

But I agree- he didn't quail and was ready to fight, thus attracting the WK's attention: [The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'. -RC p. 180Note: the mere fact that Aragorn didn't cower but rushed to them with his burning sticks made him unique in the nazgul's eyes.

Faramir fought them courageously, too, but was finally overcome by Black Breath
Where did he do it?

I think the implication of the backstory is that there were others with such courage, too. The Steward Boromir endured a Morgul wound ...
Right, there were a few brave ones, no doubt, but they were extremely rare - men of note, great ones, not your average Men.
Usually the nazgul met no resistance.

[Alcuin]

Faramir fought them courageously, too, but was finally overcome by Black BreathWhere did he do it?Before the siege of Minas Tirith, Faramir led the defense of the bridges of Osgiliath and of the outer defenses. He was hounded back to the walls by the Nazgûl, but held his men and his will, to the thrill of Pippin and the Dúnedain in the City. When Denethor sent him back out again, Gandalf reminded him not to throw his life away; and the Dúnedain initially believed he had been hit by a Nazgûl dart rather than a Southron arrow. He did not quail.

Right, there were a few brave ones, no doubt, but they were extremely rare - men of note, great ones, not your average Men.
Usually the nazgul met no resistance.I agree. None was your typical Dúnadan, and more rare indeed among other mortals. (The hatred of the Witch-king toward Eärnur was in part due to his peculiar fearlessness.) A Nazgûl messenger sent to King Dáin of Erebor frightened even the Dwarves, although Dáin seems to have not only kept his head, but showed a measure of defiance.

[Gordis]

Before the siege of Minas Tirith, Faramir led the defense of the bridges of Osgiliath and of the outer defenses. He was hounded back to the walls by the Nazgûl, but held his men and his will, to the thrill of Pippin and the Dúnedain in the City. When Denethor sent him back out again, Gandalf reminded him not to throw his life away; and the Dúnedain initially believed he had been hit by a Nazgûl dart rather than a Southron arrow. He did not quail.

Not exactly so. We know that Faramir tried hard not to quail, but we don't know whether he succeeded in this or not.

Note Gandalf's words to Denethor: ‘[Faramir] still lived when I left him. Yet he is resolved to stay with the rearguard, lest the retreat over the Pelennor become a rout. He may, perhaps, hold his men together long enough, but I doubt it. He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.’ It seems Faramir was resolved to try to rally and to support his men, but even Gandalf doubted his ability to withstand the fear of the Morgul Lord.

Here is Faramir's retreat to Minas Tirith:
Out of the gloom behind a small company of horsemen galloped, all that was left of the rearguard. Once again they turned at bay, facing the oncoming lines of fire. [...] Horsemen of the enemy swept up. [...] And with a piercing cry out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazgul stooping to the kill. The retreat became a rout. Already men were breaking away, flying wild and witless here and there, flinging away their weapons, crying out in fear, falling to the ground.
And then a trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released the sortie. [...] Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand. The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.
Faramir fought valiantly against enemy soldiers: Orcs and Men. The nazgul brought panic into the ranks of Faramir, and he himself was hit by a dart. The orderly retreat only became possible because Gandalf chased away the nazgul.


And remember Osgiliath in June 1318? Have you noted that Boromir gave an inaccurate account of the battle at the Council of Elrond?

But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away. We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before.
`Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.
'I was in the company that held the bridge, until it was cast down behind us. Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and myself and two others.
Boromir hides the fact that they did run away the first time -all of them, including himself and Faramir - and abandoned the Bridge all the way to the western bank. Seven nazgul were able to cross unhindered and make their way into Anorien. Then and only then were the Gondorians able to retake the Bridge and destroy it (UT).

A Nazgûl messenger sent to King Dáin of Erebor frightened even the Dwarves, although Dáin seems to have not only kept his head, but showed a measure of defiance.
Well, for that Dain needed no more courage than the Gaffer or Maggot. The nazgul certainly could tone down the fear they caused when they had to speak with mortals. The messenger to Erebor was trying to appear nice.:p

[Noble Elf Lord]

But do we really know for sure that the messenger was a Nazgúl? Somehow, I've always pictured him as Mouth of Sauron. :confused:

[Alcuin]

But do we really know for sure that the messenger was a Nazgúl? Somehow, I've always pictured him as Mouth of Sauron. His effect on the Dwarves strongly suggest that he was a Nazgul. Unless there is something buried in the notes - perhaps Gordis knows - I am not aware that there was a definite statement that the messenger was a Ringwraith.

[Gordis]

His effect on the Dwarves strongly suggest that he was a Nazgul. Unless there is something buried in the notes - perhaps Gordis knows - I am not aware that there was a definite statement that the messenger was a Ringwraith.

It is very strongly implied that the messenger was a nazgul. See Gloin's account:
1. the messenger was alone (can you imagine the cautious for his safety Mouth of Sauron riding alone through the wilderness all the way to Erebor?)
2. he came at night (also not a usual time for an ambassador to ask for an audience)
3. he called King Dain to the Gate, he didn't enter the Dwarven hall where there were lights and people (Why not enter if he were a mortal Man? But a nazgul wouldn't venture even into the Prancing Pony.)
4. "...then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could." Now why couldn't the Mouth sweeten his voice?
5. "...At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered" - typical nazgul hiss. Compare it to the Gaffer's words about Khamul: "He seemed mighty put out... Hissed at me, he did. It gave me quite a shudder. And Maggot's words about the same Khamul: ‘He gave a sort of hiss. It might have been laughing, and it might not. Then he spurred his great horse right at me.

Apart from that, consider the messenger's mission from Sauron's POV. The messenger was sent to Erebor seeking "a little ring, the least of rings" worth the Three of the Seven + Realm of Moria (You think the messenger would be unable to do the math?). And what if Dain agreed and provided the needed info? What if he had the Baggins in Erebor and would hand him to the messenger, Ring and all? Would a Mortal man be able to resist the lure of the Ring? Would the Mouth be not tempted to steal it for himself? (I bet he is about the worst possible choice in all of Mordor, given his personality).

Im UT it is explained quite clearly: only a nazgul could be trusted with the One. Erebor messenger came for the Ring. Need we look any further?

[Attalus]

Hi All! Does anybody remember Pippin's attitude when he and Gandalf first came to the main gate upon their arrival at Gondor? Pippin really hotly denies that he is a man, when Gandalf refers to him as one, to the gate guards. Pippin proclaims himself a Hobbit and not a man. Pippin also says he has not come of age yet in his own country. Though mentioning his adolescence here doesn't have much relevance to my point.

Adult male Hobbits are described as men in a kind of way, through descriptive simplicity and perhaps because of a lack of other pronouns in common speech :). Yet they are not men are in the same way as Aragorn or Faramir are.

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status.

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it.

_ZilbanneTo quote Michael Martinez, Pippin can in no way be considered an authority on Hobbit ancestry, being a "tomfool of a Took." JRRT, however, can, and for those who have or should have read TFotR Prologue: 1. Concerning Hobbits, should know that Hobbits are "in spite of later estragements, Hobbits are relatives of ours, far nearer to us than Elves, or even Dwarves."

[jammi567]

On the issue of Merry's blade itself, I was wondering how the people who made it (whoever they were) know exactly what would cause the WK to "die", and if they did know (which they clearly did), then why didn't they try doing that in the first place when they were attacking the WK back in the 1900's?

[Gordis]

On the issue of Merry's blade itself, I was wondering how the people who made it (whoever they were) know exactly what would cause the WK to "die", and if they did know (which they clearly did), then why didn't they try doing that in the first place when they were attacking the WK back in the 1900's?

We can tell that the blades were made between TA 1300 (the foundation of Angmar) and 1409 (when the Last Prince of Cardolan perished and was entombed in the Barrow). Most likely they date from 1356-1409, as it was only in 1356 that Angmar became aggressive.
But the know-how of making enchanted weapons likely came from Numenor. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West".

Perhaps there was a unique "school" of craftsmen in Tyrn Gorthad - or in Tharbad? Tharbad was one of the oldest Numenorean cities in ME, predating the Downfall, and even older was Lond Daer Ened - Vinyalonde. There should have been libraries with ME chronicles of the Second Age still intact. A scholar from Cardolan might have found out the know-how of making enchanted swords as well as the IDENTITY of the Lord of the Nazgul. I believe they had his real name and used it in the spell.

I think the know-how of the sword making was lost with the end of Cardolan. All of the craftsmen might have been killed in the 1409 war, or, more likely, they died during the Plague of 1636. " It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."

I believe, the Witch-King sent the Wights to guard the ONLY remaining blades. What was the point, if such blades were being constantly produced in Arthedain? No, likely the secret was lost.

There is no mention of such blades being used in the last Angmar War of 1974-75. And HAD there been such blades at the battle of Fornost, where Gondoreans fought alongside Arnoreans, don't you think that Earnur would have imported the blades and the secret of their making into Gondor? They have been attacked by the Witch-King only 27 years after the battle of Fornost and had him and the other nazgul as their close neighbors, right across the river, ever since. IF Earnur knew of the blades, the workshop for their mass-production would have been installed in Minas-Tirith.

[Attalus]

I agree with most of this, and actually find something new to speculate about. Merry's blade has usually thought of as unique, though we are told that both his and Pippin's were "worked about with spells for the bane of Mordor." I have no doubt that whatever mage/craftsman who wrought Merry's blade cursed the Witch-King as he or she made it.

[Olmer]

Gordis, I admire your way of thinking. You are never ceasing to surprise us with your discoveries.:-))
I have thought that a subject of the Witch-King's killing was already well "chewed", and, yet, the guarding of the very special blades made a sence. It's putting the Witch-King's activities at the Tyrn Gorthad purposeful and rational. I like it!

[Gordis]

Well, thanks :),

1.We know that the Witch-King sent the evil spirits to inhabit the Barrows of Cardolan in 1636 - (App. A and "The Hunt for the Ring").
It was at [the time of the Great Plague of 1636] that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.- LOTR App.A
The Hunt for the Ring, Marquette MSS 4/2/33, notes that 'the Witch-King ... had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dunedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself' (see also Unfinished Tales, p. 348).

2.We know that the Witch-King knew about the existance of the Barrow-blades and their potential danger to himself. He recognized the swords straight away.

3. We know that the Witch-King knew that the Barrow blades wielded at the Weathertop could only come from a barrow.
But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted [the Witch-King], had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight - RC, p. 180

I think there is no great leap of logic to suppose that one of the reasons why the WK sent the Wights to the Barrows back in 1636 was to guard the dangerous blades in the tombs of the Dunedain.

Also, note that the first thing the Witch-King did when approaching Frodo over the Ford (their next encounter after the Weathertop) was to break Frodo's blade by magic.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Guarding the blades makes sense, but why not destroy them in the first place?

Yeah, sorry I'm tired. Maybe that was a stupid question... :confused:

[Gordis]

Guarding the blades makes sense, but why not destroy them in the first place?

Good question.
Maybe because the Wights, obsessed with guarding ancient treasures, wouldn't break the beautiful weapons. Maybe the Witch King had never been in the Barrows in person before the year of LOTR (3018): he only sent the Wights there. Or maybe there were too many enchanted swords, who knows?

[Butterbeer]

Ah... had he but an Eagle or two to spare...he could have dropped them easily enough into the Crack of doom..or were that inactive for any reason at this date... into the deeps of the Sea.. :D

Whilst i like, and to some degree, agree with the theory about these swords and their art, runes and possibly even the knowledge of the WK's actual name... (a long ago Theory of Gor's as i recall) that may have made them unique -

I doubt the WK deliberetley set Wights here to specifically Guard those Swords -

IF we agree that they were so bound with mortal danger to him -and HE KNEW where they were - i suspect he would have had them destroyed.

Rather i think he hedged his bets and setthe Wights as an added protection / influence in the area - rather than SPECIFICALLY to Guard them :)

-

As to Faramir, Boromir II, Aragorn etc - i also concur more with Alcuin than GOR - not many Could withstand the Nine - but some could -

and i think it clear Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn all could - regardless the fact that by the Anduin they had to flee when all else had fled or died -

Yet, i think Zilbanne makes a good aside in that the nature of courage and Resolve is different, if slowly aroused in Hobbits -

call it almost a simplicity of the Soul - that can cut through all else when roused - almost a parable to Tom Bombadil -

Could he resist the Nine and the Power of Mordor?... Only if that Power were in the Very Earth itself...

I think the Hobbits are more Earthy than Man, and not blessed with great strength, height, eyesight, Magic or Wisdom - they have in part almost a Wholeness of Fea that whilst not indominitable by any means - certainly has at core, almost a Hidden Mithril-like Resistance...

In them perhaps was some of that Earthiness - in essence and when really needed aroused - was something hard to corrupt, or break - or daunt or bend - for it was founded, rooted, deep deep into the foundations almost of nature itself... and that of the Good pure steadfast Earth..Not of Fire, or Air, or of Water.

:)

[Gordis]

Ah... had he but an Eagle or two to spare...he could have dropped them easily enough into the Crack of doom..or were that inactive for any reason at this date... into the deeps of the Sea.. :D

Orodruin was dormant for most of the Third Age: it became active three years after Sauron officially returned to Mordor: in 2954. And then why Orodruin? The swords were no Rings, they could be broken by ordinary means.

To throw something "into the depths of the Sea" requires a ship and thus involvement of some mariners (Umbar?). I guess the WK preferred not to involve more people into it - not to spread the secret. As it was, among living Men, nobody remembered about the swords.

After all, the Wights did their job nicely - I think Frodo and K were the first to plunder the Barrow in 1500 years. And they managed only with the help of Tom.

I doubt the WK deliberetley set Wights here to specifically Guard those Swords -
Sure, the primary goal of the Wights was to keep Tyrn-Gorthad clean of the Men of Cardolan. Here the WK used some sort of "environment pollution" technique. And it worked well - nobody ever since settled on the fine grassy hills where so many sheep used to graze.

call it almost a simplicity of the Soul - that can cut through all else when roused - almost a parable to Tom Bombadil -

Could he resist the Nine and the Power of Mordor?... Only if that Power were in the Very Earth itself...

I think the Hobbits are more Earthy than Man, and not blessed with great strength, height, eyesight, Magic or Wisdom - they have in part almost a Wholeness of Fea that whilst not indominitable by any means - certainly has at core, almost a Hidden Mithril-like Resistance...

In them perhaps was some of that Earthiness - in essence and when really needed aroused - was something hard to corrupt, or break - or daunt or bend - for it was founded, rooted, deep deep into the foundations almost of nature itself... and that of the Good pure steadfast Earth..Not of Fire, or Air, or of Water.

:)

Very well put.:)

[Jon S.]

Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!

[Zilbanne]

Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!
Truly Jon! And I like that here at Entmoot people can be friendly and still hold many different points of view!

[Attalus]

I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.

[Gordis]

I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.

Unbelievable - and what was the main difference in opinion? That Merry was more important that Eowyn?

[Attalus]

Basically, that it was Merrry's blow that did in the W-K and that Eowyn's blow was superfluous, as he had already been killed by Merry. We even went into the deep meaning of "knit his unseen sinews to his will", which to me means that the W-K was paralysed, temporarily, most likely, and that it was Eowyn's blow that finally sent him wailing back to Sauron. But, let me warn you, other views exist.

[Gordis]

Hmm... The blow delivered by Merry (behind the WK's knee) was certainly painful and temporarily crippling, but I can't imagine it would be mortal, magic or no magic. There had to be someone else to finish the job and fulfill the prophecy.

For one thing, we have clear data from the RC "Hunt for the Ring" that at Weathertop the nazgul did recognize the Barrow-Blades and feared them. How would they know of such blades and their danger if not a single nazgul - ever- had been wounded by such a blade?

But if any wound by such a blade were mortal, then we would have had one nazgul less. Yet, here they are - all the nine - hale and sound. Thus, I guess, one of them had been wounded, but recovered. And, most likely, it had been the WK himself during the Angmar wars.

[Attalus]

Hmmm, good point. I woud imagine Merry's Barrow-Blade to be the forbear of those many magic swords that paralyse the opponent for a variable period of time, before the spell wore off. Michael Martinez once wrote a highly enlightenening essay on the components of Middle-earth magic: there was a somatic component, e.g. stabbing the W-K, laying the blade over the hobbits' neck, grasping the door in Moria, followed by a verbalcomponent, exemplified by the Wight's curse and the "counterspell" of the Balrog, of which we know little. In this case, the verbal component would be Eowyn's defiance, followed by the somatic component of Merry's stabbling of the W-K, ended by Eowyn's blow. I pointed out at the time that Eowyn had to hit something, or her blade would not have been consumed, not she so afflicted by the Black Breath.

[Earniel]

For one thing, we have clear data from the RC "Hunt for the Ring" that at Weathertop the nazgul did recognize the Barrow-Blades and feared them. How would they know of such blades and their danger if not a single nazgul - ever- had been wounded by such a blade?
However, there is an undefined number of wraiths that were not Nazgûl. Frodo would have turned into one of those if the blade-shard had not been removed in time from his shoulder.

Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths. It would make sense the smiths of Arnor had something other than Nazgûl to test their blades on. I really doubt the Barrow-blades are just a lucky find, there must have been a long metallurgic process of trail and error beforehand.

[Noble Elf Lord]

However, there is an undefined number of wraiths that were not Nazgûl. Frodo would have turned into one of those if the blade-shard had not been removed in time from his shoulder.

Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths. It would make sense the smiths of Arnor had something other than Nazgûl to test their blades on. I really doubt the Barrow-blades are just a lucky find, there must have been a long metallurgic process of trail and error beforehand.

I'm afraid that I must disagree here. I don't believe that the blade's magic had been found by luck, nor do I believe that it would have required many tries. And we know for sure that Witchking had been stabbed at least two times.

Surely you'd think that they (Numenorians) had knowledge of this arcane art? They had most information at that time, when we talk about the post-Numenorian- time. After the fall of Arnor, the knowledge certainly diminished along with the greatest of the Men. So I'd say it only took 2-4 tries. Had the blades been done at the near end of Third Age, it would have required the help of the Elves to research them that quickly - and without them, it certainly would have taken (for example) the Rangers a much longer time and many more tries. :cool: 'Tis just my humble view.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

And we know for sure that Witchking had been stabbed at least two times.


Before Merry and Eowyn? When?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Before Merry and Eowyn? When?

I don't know exactly when, but it has to be so, since all the blades that stab him break - I think this includes ordinary steel and magical steel. So they both have been tested, and so we know that even a magical blade is broken in contact with him. :)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Based on the Aragorn quote. Got it. Very reasonable interpretation.

[Gordis]

I woud imagine Merry's Barrow-Blade to be the forbear of those many magic swords that paralyse the opponent for a variable period of time, before the spell wore off. I pointed out at the time that Eowyn had to hit something, or her blade would not have been consumed, not she so afflicted by the Black Breath.The last bit is unquestionable: the WK was still alive when Eowyn dealt her blow. More difficult is to counter the opinion that he would have died all the same given some time, just because of BD blade's magick.
I don't know about the WK being exactly "paralyzed" by Merry's blow: I have an impression that any living man being stabbed behind the knee would have fallen to his knees and remained incapacitated for quite some time, just because of the pain.
Maybe the BD blade was magical not because the wounds it caused were unusually grave, but simply because of the fact that it allowed to wound the wraith in the same way as if he were a mere Man stricken by a normal blade.

It may well be that an ordinary blade (or an arrow) disintegrates at the first contact with the nazgul blood, so the nazgul would never get more than a scratch, easy to heal. The BD blade perishes also, but it burns much later - after doing the damage. And note that the BD blade perishes some considerable time after it had been used (Merry had time to speak with Theoden, to see Eomer and the mumakil and only then he noticed his sword was burning:
And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.

Another observation: the BD blade "flickered red, as if it was a firebrand" in the spirit world and it "burned all away like a piece of wood" after use. The blades were "damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold" and "set with many fiery stones." Looks like there was some Fire-magic in them - and the nazgul, by the way, all feared fire.

However, there is an undefined number of wraiths that were not Nazgûl. Frodo would have turned into one of those if the blade-shard had not been removed in time from his shoulder.
Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths.
I like this idea. Indeed there were lesser wraiths, and maybe a few of them had been killed by such blades - that's how the nazgul became aware of the peril. Not necessarily one of the Nine would have had to be stabbed, indeed.

I don't know exactly when, but it has to be so, since all the blades that stab him break - I think this includes ordinary steel and magical steel. So they both have been tested, and so we know that even a magical blade is broken in contact with him. :)
Aragorn who said "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King" seems not to be aware of the existence of the Barrow blades and their virtues. At Weathertop he never told the hobbits to take out their swords, instead he told them to prepare torches. So, "all blades" may well mean "all sorts of blades that had ever pierced the Witch-King", but not necessarily including the BD blades.

With that, it becomes even more confusing.

[Alcuin]

The Elves, and the Eldar in particular, could see into the wraith-world, “the other side,â€� as Gandalf put it to Frodo when he awoke in Elrond’s house. Any surviving MÃ*rdain would have described, as best they could, what had transpired in Eregion, and what they had constructed under the tutelage of “Annatar.â€� That would have given the other Noldor some idea about what they were dealing with as far as the Seven and Nine were concerned, although, as Gandalf told Frodo in Hobbiton, “there is only one Power in this world that knows all about the Rings and their effects,â€� meaning that only Sauron really knew how they worked.

I think we can infer that Sauron, the Necromancer, was misusing connections to “the other side� – the wraith-world – to alter how the Elves aged, to slow the effects of Time on them and on their surroundings. I doubt Tolkien ever bothered to work out how this necromancy functioned, only that it did; as a side effect, it pulled Mortals into the wraith-world, extending their lives in Arda “like butter that has been scraped over too much bread,� but causing them to “fade� physically just as the Elves “faded� in Middle-earth, though much more rapidly.

However the Rings functioned, the Dúnedain and Elves also had to deal with the barrow-wights, which existed in the wraith-world, too. I think the context of finding the wraith-injuring “barrow blades� (there were at least 4 of them – Frodo’s was broken by the Witch-king at the Ford of Bruinen, apparently by a spell – and maybe more in the barrow from which Bombadil freed the hobbits) in the barrow of Cardolan’s last prince indicates that the folk of that kingdom made them; in any case, the Northern Dúnedain made them for fighting, well, wraiths, including barrow-wights. The Númenórean smiths had to get their information on how to deal with these awful critters from some source, and the Eldar, as well as bad experience, seem the only likely sources. I wouldn’t imagine the Nazgûl, the barrow-wights, or any other evil spirits would be too forthcoming with information on how Men might harm them.

[Earniel]

I'm afraid that I must disagree here. I don't believe that the blade's magic had been found by luck, nor do I believe that it would have required many tries. And we know for sure that Witchking had been stabbed at least two times.
I'm afraid I don't follow. The only two times I remember is on Weathertop and at the battlefield before the gates of Gondor, well into the Third Aera and long after the forging of the blades. How does this relate to only a few tries to develop the blade?

Surely you'd think that they (Numenorians) had knowledge of this arcane art? They had most information at that time, when we talk about the post-Numenorian- time. After the fall of Arnor, the knowledge certainly diminished along with the greatest of the Men. So I'd say it only took 2-4 tries.What sort of arcane arts? Necromancy or metalurgy? :confused: While much knowledge was lost after the break-up of Arnor, there is no reason a few new techniques/alloys may not have been discovered and subsequently lost in the remaining petty kingdoms. The Numenoreans, while powerful, didn't know everything there was to know.

And forging weapons was still necessary as the Arnorian kingdoms were often at war, be it with Angmar or themselves. So forging weapons against enemies, corporeal or not-quite-so, would have been a reasonable field of study. How would you conclude out of the fact that knowledge would have been diminished that finding the anti-wraith swords only took a try or four? :confused:

Had the blades been done at the near end of Third Age, it would have required the help of the Elves to research them that quickly - and without them, it certainly would have taken (for example) the Rangers a much longer time and many more tries. :cool: 'Tis just my humble view.
But if the Elves had been involved in the research and making of the barrow-swords, shouldn't they have remembered the knowledge of it then? Why then did they not make their own anti-wraith swords? I'm sure they knew good use for those as well.

Maybe the BD blade was magical not because the wounds it caused were unusually grave, but simply because of the fact that it allowed to wound the wraith in the same way as if he were a mere Man stricken by a normal blade.
This has always been my impression as well.

It may well be that an ordinary blade (or an arrow) disintegrates at the first contact with the nazgul blood, so the nazgul would never get more than a scratch, easy to heal. The BD blade perishes also, but it burns much later - after doing the damage. And note that the BD blade perishes some considerable time after it had been used (Merry had time to speak with Theoden, to see Eomer and the mumakil and only then he noticed his sword was burning:
Interesting observation. I wonder whether the makers also devised of some way for the blades to be 'cleaned' after using on a nazgul, to keep it from vaporising. The ancient Dúnedain of Arnor didn't quite strike me as people who made disposable objects. :p

[Gordis]

I'm afraid I don't follow. The only two times I remember is on Weathertop and at the battlefield before the gates of Gondor, well into the Third Aera and long after the forging of the blades. How does this relate to only a few tries to develop the blade?
NEL referred to Aragorn's words : "All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King". He thinks it implies:
1. That the WK had been known to be wounded before Weathertop.
2. It had happened at least twice (to allow for generalization -all blades)
That's how I have understood NEL's words, at least.:)

What sort of arcane arts? Necromancy or metalurgy? :confused: While much knowledge was lost after the break-up of Arnor, there is no reason a few new techniques/alloys may not have been discovered and subsequently lost in the remaining petty kingdoms. The Numenoreans, while powerful, didn't know everything there was to know.
The alloy and the sword design were quite distinctive. The Mouth calls Sam's sword "blade of the Downfallen West" - that means the Island people in the SA had similar blades. Yet Denethor is more specific and sees that Pippin's blade was made in the old Arnor. Nobody confuses them with Elven or Dwarven blades. Yet, neither Denethor, nor the Mouth, nor even Aragorn perceive the BD swords as magick anti-wraith blades. I guess the design and alloy were rather common for Arnor and Numenor, it were only the runes and the spells that made the swords unique.

How would you conclude out of the fact that knowledge would have been diminished that finding the anti-wraith swords only took a try or four? :confused:
I don't really believe that the smiths of Cardolan had the benefit of any tries. They did their best and gave the blades to the warriors, hoping the spell would work. Quite likely, they died without being sure whether they succeeded in making the anti-WK weapon or not. The Nazgul, on the other hand, did know about the blades and their peril - so at least one of them or the lesser wraiths had been wounded/killed by such a blade.


But if the Elves had been involved in the research and making of the barrow-swords, shouldn't they have remembered the knowledge of it then? Why then did they not make their own anti-wraith swords? I'm sure they knew good use for those as well.
I wholly agree - good argument. I am sure the Elves had no part in the making of these swords.

Interesting observation. I wonder whether the makers also devised of some way for the blades to be 'cleaned' after using on a nazgul, to keep it from vaporising. The ancient Dúnedain of Arnor didn't quite strike me as people who made disposable objects. :p

Come on! If once in a thousand years one of such blades has the luck to wound/kill a nazgul, it is worth its money a thousand times over. It matters not whether the blade burns away afterwards - the old smith who made it would be happy anyway. (And note it is not really "disposable" - it could be used many times on ordinary creatures - men, trolls, orcs). It is an old tradition that a blade breaks after fulfilling its supreme goal (Narsil, Turin's blade etc.)

[Noble Elf Lord]

But if the Elves had been involved in the research and making of the barrow-swords, shouldn't they have remembered the knowledge of it then? Why then did they not make their own anti-wraith swords? I'm sure they knew good use for those as well.

After the arguments, I too think that the Elves propably didn't help. But if we, for arguments's sake, presume they did - what use would they have had for them? Mithlond, Mirkwood, Rivendell, Lórien, Lindon. Aren't those the Elven Kingdoms of the 3rd Age? Apart from Rivendell, there hardly were any wraiths anywhere nearby. Having become a secretive people, the Elves would hardly go and search for wraiths (=problems). As for Imladris, I doubt that Elrond would say to his Noldor folks: "OK, guys, time to go wraith-hunting. Why don't you polish your armor, I'll forge us a few anti-Nazgûl- blades, and I'll see you in the hall in three years. Questions?" :p :)

And Eärniel, I think that you overdo it. What I say I mean; it's difficult to lead anything correct from what I say, cause there are no hidden thoughts in my words. I speak straight and more or less true. No offense, pal. :)

[Willow Oran]

Apart from Rivendell, there hardly were any wraiths anywhere nearby.

The elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien beg to differ. They might have quite liked some anti-wraith blades to use on their unwanted neighbors.:p

[Noble Elf Lord]

The elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien beg to differ. They might have quite liked some anti-wraith blades to use on their unwanted neighbors.:p

So they didn't have them. So how did they destroy the supposed wraiths in Dol Guldur? I doubt Galadriels hurricane or whatever did it. :confused: :p

... wait, you're an Elf? :eek: :D Hello, cousin! I wish I knew a Sindarin "Hello"...

[Willow Oran]

Mae Govannon!

I don't know how at all, but I suspect Nenya is capable of more hurricanes and Thranduil is rumored to have some power of his own. ;)

[Noble Elf Lord]

Mae Govannon!

I don't know how at all, but I suspect Nenya is capable of more hurricanes and Thranduil is rumored to have some power of his own. ;)

Thank you, my fellow Elda! I didn't know the bit about Thranduil. Cool... :cool:

[Earniel]

Come on! If once in a thousand years one of such blades has the luck to wound/kill a nazgul, it is worth its money a thousand times over. It matters not whether the blade burns away afterwards - the old smith who made it would be happy anyway. (And note it is not really "disposable" - it could be used many times on ordinary creatures - men, trolls, orcs). It is an old tradition that a blade breaks after fulfilling its supreme goal (Narsil, Turin's blade etc.)
Heheh, you're quite right. I should probably turn my ecological-minded thinking off. :p

After the arguments, I too think that the Elves propably didn't help. But if we, for arguments's sake, presume they did - what use would they have had for them? Mithlond, Mirkwood, Rivendell, Lórien, Lindon. Aren't those the Elven Kingdoms of the 3rd Age? Apart from Rivendell, there hardly were any wraiths anywhere nearby. Having become a secretive people, the Elves would hardly go and search for wraiths (=problems). As for Imladris, I doubt that Elrond would say to his Noldor folks: "OK, guys, time to go wraith-hunting. Why don't you polish your armor, I'll forge us a few anti-Nazgûl- blades, and I'll see you in the hall in three years. Questions?" :p :)
I suppose I reasoned that if the Elves had the skill and knowledge to make the blades, they may not have gone looking for wraiths to kill, but they might have considered providing the Fellowship with some more of these blades in case the Ring-wraiths turned up. The Elves after all had time to reforge Narsil.

And considering the seemingly reasonable close relationships between the Rangers and Rivendell, it would surprise me if the Rivendell Elves didn't help the Rangers get equiped in anti-wraith gear to clean up the Barrow-downs once and for all.

And Eärniel, I think that you overdo it. What I say I mean; it's difficult to lead anything correct from what I say, cause there are no hidden thoughts in my words. I speak straight and more or less true. No offense, pal. :)
I'm sorry. :o I'm just trying to make sure I fully understood your arguments and see the path of your reasoning. I hate to make wrong conclusions on what people meant to say. I did not mean to come off rude or pushy.

Gah, this is the second time in a month someone gets upset about my way of discussing. Am I really that bad? :(

[Gordis]

Am I really that bad?
You are the nicest Elf I know. And coming from a nazgul it is a big compliment.:)

And considering the seemingly reasonable close relationships between the Rangers and Rivendell, it would surprise me if the Rivendell Elves didn't help the Rangers get equiped in anti-wraith gear to clean up the Barrow-downs once and for all.
They would have given some blades to Arvedui's army, taken some with them to the Battle of Fornost, they would surely have given some to Earnur who was so set on going after the Witch-King. But nothing like that happened.
By 1975, the know-how of making the BD blades was obviously lost.


So they didn't have them. So how did they destroy the supposed wraiths in Dol Guldur? I doubt Galadriels hurricane or whatever did it. :confused: :p


The two nazgul who guarded Dol Guldur were killed along with all the remaining nazgul at Orodruin.

As for the lesser wraiths, likely neither of them "survived" the destruction of the Ring. After all, the Necromancy, the Morgul-magick that turned them into wraiths was ring-derived, most likely. I guess the souls of lesser wraiths would become free and go to Mandos when the One is destroyed and the Nine Rings lose their power.

Also we are not sure there were any lesser wraiths in Dol Guldur. Most were supposed to "live" in Minas Morgul anyway.

By the way, how do you think, were there any lesser wraiths among that cavalry that followed the Morgul Lord out of Minas Morgul?
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

[Noble Elf Lord]

I'm sorry. :o I'm just trying to make sure I fully understood your arguments and see the path of your reasoning. I hate to make wrong conclusions on what people meant to say. I did not mean to come off rude or pushy.

Gah, this is the second time in a month someone gets upset about my way of discussing. Am I really that bad? :(

No, you weren't rude or pushy or anything! :) Just proved that you're an Elf: "Errare Eldarum est." ;) I didn't get upset, don't worry. :D

[Noble Elf Lord]

By the way, how do you think, were there any lesser wraiths among that cavalry that followed the Morgul Lord out of Minas Morgul?

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith. They were forced to see Minas Tirith, their former beautiful city, from the highest window (:confused:) of Minas Morgul. This "witch window" made them see M.T. brutally twisted, ugly and forbidding. Their minds slowly bent to hatred, they were granted some minor power and "brainwashed" into something like (my own thought) lesser Mouths of Sauron.

How's that for you? :cool:

[Gordis]

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith. They were forced to see Minas Tirith, their former beautiful city, from the highest window (:confused:) of Minas Morgul. This "witch window" made them see M.T. brutally twisted, ugly and forbidding. Their minds slowly bent to hatred, they were granted some minor power and "brainwashed" into something like (my own thought) lesser Mouths of Sauron.

How's that for you? :cool:

Fanfiction.:rolleyes:
I doubt Minas Tirith is visible even "from the highest window of Minas Morgul.":p

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think the implication was that they were placed in some sort of "seat of seeing" like Morgoth put Hurin in, or like Amon Hen, though I've never read such a thing, either.

[Gordis]

Also, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to be "brainwashed". He is a most dedicated servant of Sauron, greedy of dark knowledge and power, coming from a long line of Black Numenoreans.

Actually even Gandalf says that the Dark Lord was not short of Men in any way: many served him quite willingly.
And the most dedicated and useful servants may aspire for a permanent position: just one stab with a Morgul blade and here you are immortal.:D:eek:

[Noble Elf Lord]

Also, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't seem to be "brainwashed". He is a most dedicated servant of Sauron, greedy of dark knowledge and power, coming from a long line of Black Numenoreans.

Actually even Gandalf says that the Dark Lord was not short of Men in any way: many served him quite willingly.
And the most dedicated and useful servants may aspire for a permanent position: just one stub with a Morgul blade and here you are immortal.:D:eek:

I meant that they resembled MoS in appearance, cruel nature and being cabable of some very minor witchcraft. :D

Ahhh... and what did I just say to Eärniel, Gordis? Don't try to lead stuff from my sentences. ;) :)

[Gordis]

I meant that they resembled MoS in appearance, cruel nature and being cabable of some very minor witchcraft. :D

Ahhh... and what did I just say to Eärniel, Gordis? Don't try to lead stuff from my sentences. ;) :)

Movie MOS?:eek:

And NOL, people don't try to lead stuff from your sentences, they simply try to understand them. I advise you to make your words clearer from the start.:)

[Earniel]

You are the nicest Elf I know. And coming from a nazgul it is a big compliment.:)
Thanks! And you are my favourite Nazgûl. ;)

No, you weren't rude or pushy or anything! :) Just proved that you're an Elf: "Errare Eldarum est." ;) I didn't get upset, don't worry. :D
Yeay! No worries! :D

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall a story which has it that the Nine captured some of the Gondor Knights some years before the attack to Minas Tirith.
I don't recall having read this sort of story either. I would follow Gordis' conclusion that this was fanfiction.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Movie MOS?:eek:

And NOL, people don't try to lead stuff from your sentences, they simply try to understand them. I advise you to make your words clearer from the start.:)

No. not movie MoS. Our personal picture of him. ;) Honestly, Gor, you think I'm still that movie worshipping semifan I used to be? :)

I guess I should do as advised... though my pride keeps getting on the way. :o :D However, I do always try to make myself clear, be it consciously or not. :confused:

The reason why I said "lead stuff" was because I try to speak so that there's nothing more to my sentences except what they clearly say. :eek:

[Gordis]

OK, OK - no problem, NOL. :)
Do you have a link to this fic?

[Noble Elf Lord]

OK, OK - no problem, NOL. :)
Do you have a link to this fic?

:D Just so no one gets confused, please be kind and call me NEL or Nelly, as these were awarded to me in the Teacup Cafe, and are frequently used by others. :) ...then again, NOL refers kinda to N(g)oldor. :cool: thanks for the idea!

No, I have no link. it's just a vague memory. :( Pity.

[Gordis]

Er... sorry, NEL!:o

[Noble Elf Lord]

Er... sorry, NEL!:o

This is the wierdest thing an Elf Lord has said to a Nazgûl, but there's nothing to be sorry for. :) I may well use something Noldor- related in my title once I get to choose it. :D

Back to the topic, though: I do not believe that there were wraiths among the cavalry from Minas Morgul. IMO, they were propably something like the last remnants of the Dark Numenorians who didn't live in Umbar, and who had been covered in the Shadow of the Enemy to make them look more intimidating. ...yeah, right...:cool: :o

[Attalus]

So they didn't have them. So how did they destroy the supposed wraiths in Dol Guldur? I doubt Galadriels hurricane or whatever did it. :confused: :p

[/SIZE]As I recall it, the Elves of Lorien destroyed the wraiths of Dol Guldur AFTER the One (and the Nine) were destroyed.

[Gordis]

As I recall it, the Elves of Lorien destroyed the wraiths of Dol Guldur AFTER the One (and the Nine) were destroyed.

Exactly - if there were any wraiths left after March 25, that is.

But note: Aragorn refused to try to reclaim and "cleanse" Minas Morgul. Why so, I wonder?

[Alcuin]

I don’t recall Tolkien saying that the Elves ever forged “barrow-blade�-type weapons. I believe that the only smiths he wrote as having made any were among the Northern Dúnedain: So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. The phrase “work of Westernesse� could mean either “of Númenor� or “of the Númenóreans,� but I take it to mean “of the Númenóreans� and so identical to the phrase “of the Dúnedain [in exile]�, or else the portion that says “when the Dúnedain were young� would mean that the manufacture of the blades was very early in the history of Arnor, before the days of Angmar, I would imagine.

The phrase “when the Dúnedain were young� seems to me to refer generally to the days in which the North Kingdom still existed; and by inference, once it “died,� the Dúnedain (at least in the North) became “old,� perhaps in some ways comparable to their essential allies, the Elves, without whom they could not have survived.

Minas Morgul was polluted beyond redemption, I think: Morgul Vale, which had been a beautiful land before its fall around III 2000, was burned; when Minas Morgul was destroyed I do not know. Dol Guldur was made, in part, with the power of the Rings – with the power of the Nine, certainly, if not with some guidance by Sauron himself, whose power was bound up in the continued existence of the One Ring: it should have fallen with the end of the One Ring, and so also the power of the Nine; Tolkien says that Galadriel destroyed what was left. The eight Ringwraiths that the force led by Aragorn and the Captains of Gondor saw at the Morannon were destroyed when Sauron (mentally?) summoned them to Orodruin to seize the Ring:with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

[jammi567]

But note: Aragorn refused to try to reclaim and "cleanse" Minas Morgul. Why so, I wonder?

Maybe because it was so far gone and degenerated to the point that nothing would ever get rid of the stains it had recieved. Plus, there's the fact that a bad reputation is a very hard thing to get rid of, even if the things that caused it have gone forever.

It's just like the haunted houses in those cheap horror movies - they could easily know it down/rebuild it, but the reputation it gained in the mean time would make it very difficult to sell.

[Gordis]

or else the portion that says “when the Dúnedain were young” would mean that the manufacture of the blades was very early in the history of Arnor, before the days of Angmar, I would imagine.
I don't think so. Why would the Northern Dunedain start making anti-wraith (much less anti-WK) weapons before there was any wraith nearby?
As for "young", please compare it to this quote:
They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again. A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds.
"Young Sun, new and greedy swords" referred to the period after the division of Arnor when Cardolan fought with its sister Kingdoms and with Angmar. "The towers fell", I believe, refers to 1409. Right after that "dead kings and queens" were buried. "Sheep walked for a while biting the grass" refers to period 1409-1636. "Bones were stirred" - the wights were sent to the barrows after the Plague of 1636.

The phrase “when the Dúnedain were young” seems to me to refer generally to the days in which the North Kingdom still existed; and by inference, once it “died,” the Dúnedain (at least in the North) became “old,” perhaps in some ways comparable to their essential allies, the Elves, without whom they could not have survived.
I agree.

Maybe because it was so far gone and degenerated to the point that nothing would ever get rid of the stains it had recieved. Plus, there's the fact that a bad reputation is a very hard thing to get rid of, even if the things that caused it have gone forever.
It's just like the haunted houses in those cheap horror movies - they could easily know it down/rebuild it, but the reputation it gained in the mean time would make it very difficult to sell.
Minas Morgul was polluted beyond redemption,
I am not sure about the type of this pollution: was it ecological, (like the unwholesome river Morgulduin and the meadows with a tendency to grow poisonous white flowers), or cultural (bed reputation, horrible memories connected with the place), or magical - the residual evil magic that Aragorn and K were unable to overcome. Maybe there were still a lot of wraiths and ghosts haunting the place - for real, not figments of imagination?

If Morgul-blade wraiths would likely be destroyed together with the Ring, the Houseless Elves, for instance, wouldn't be affected for sure. And I have a nasty feeling that the Silent Watchers of M.Morgul and Cirith Ungol were the Houseless, trapped within stone statues...
After the Fall of Mordor, all this ghost company may have remained in the Morgul Vale.

[jammi567]

I don't know - I didn't think that 'ghosts' or 'wraiths' stayed in one place, but just constantly wondered around, espcially when there's no-one to order them to stay in a particular place, like they were forced to at the Barrowdowns for around 1500 years.

[Gordis]

I don't know - I didn't think that 'ghosts' or 'wraiths' stayed in one place, but just constantly wondered around, espcially when there's no-one to order them to stay in a particular place, like they were forced to at the Barrowdowns for around 1500 years.

I think the ghosts/wraiths do have a tendency to stick to a particular place. The Dead of Dunharrow, for instance, always remained where they once lived - in the caves between Dunharrow and Erech, though there was nothing in Isildur's curse that ordered them to remain in this place.
Minas Morgul was a real ghost-nest, yet in Mordor itself Frodo and Sam haven't seen or felt a single ghost.
As for the Barrow-wights, I am almost sure that the destruction of the Ring hadn't affected them - they likely remained in the Barrows.

[jammi567]

As for the Barrow-wights, I am almost sure that the destruction of the Ring hadn't affected them - they likely remained in the Barrows.

But then, I thought that they were the remains of the people who were actually burried there, and so wouldn't have been affected or bound to the ring in the first place - hense why they remained there.

Same with the Dead of Dunharrow - that's where they died, and so that's where they remained.

I was mainly thinking of those elves and other such races who had died, but who's original place of life or grave had disappeared for whatever reason, and so had no particular reason to be bound to a certain place.

[Alcuin]

The material in History of Middle-earth indicates that the barrow-wights might be the spirits of Elves who, having died physically, refused the call of the Valar to come before Mandos for judgment. That puts them into a state of rebellion, leaving them open to a “counter-summons� and to enslavement by Morgoth or his servants, in this case Sauron, who is called the Necromancer, and the Witch-king, who is called a “great sorcerer.� Without going into any unpleasant details, necromancy is magic concerning death and the dead, and sorcery is properly the working of magic through the aid of evil spirits. Both practices are apt to summoning and entrapping the spirits of dead, rebellious Elves in the bodies of the dead Dúnedain: in the Appendices to the Return of the King, Tolkien says that the barrow in which Frodo and his friends were trapped was the tomb of the last prince of Cardolan.

If the wights in the barrows were animated through the power of the Rings, perhaps even indirectly through summons, then upon the destruction of the One Ring, these creatures would have ceased to function as barrow-wights: the bodies would have been merely dead, and the spirits consigned to whatever existence they could find for themselves. Tolkien warns (through the words of some sage: Pengolod, perhaps?) that they would seek converse with the living, presumably Men, whose bodies they might try to seize by overwhelming the souls of Men. The narrator in that section (Morgoth’s Ring, if memory servers me aright) warns that Men should avoid all contact with these spirits: real Elves who did not die but faded in Middle-earth could still present to Men the memory of their physical appearance, which would uplift the hearts of those who saw them; but the rebellious Elves could present only deceits, should not be trusted, and sought to deceive those with whom they came into contact.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Sorry, Alcuin, but it's difficult for me to believe that the evil spirits would have been those of Elves. Surely no Elf would have been foolish enough to rebel in the third Age? My suspicions are caused by the fact that I have never read such material. :o I'm a hu- no wait, an Elf. ;) A sceptic one. :p

[Butterbeer]

I think the ghosts/wraiths do have a tendency to stick to a particular place. The Dead of Dunharrow, for instance, always remained where they once lived - in the caves between Dunharrow and Erech, though there was nothing in Isildur's curse that ordered them to remain in this place.


Actually this isn't what we are told - Ere the Muster of Rohan we are told that prior to the Grey Company taking the Paths of the dead a great Host of the Dead had ridden up and ridden through "as if to keep a tryst" ... and this was news from Dunharrow -

But even so - what do you expect them (The Dead) to do? Go on package Holidays? ... Take the family for a few days with bucket and spades to the Beach at Dol Amroth? :D


........................

As to my take on the Barrow Blades, i think the side journey into their metallurgy or making is a dead end. Nor need they be specifically meant, made for, or designed specifically with wraiths or the King of Angmar in mind - but yet bound by Runes for their Enemies - - Happy indeed would they who made these Blades have been to know their fate - and for The Chief of their Enemies to fall to its Cutting edge!

Yet, for all that, at this age, the very latter part of the Third Age, i don't doubt few, if any, Blades would have had the effect that Merry's Blade had - to cut through Wraith sinew and render a blow more deadly than other swords or Axes, but certainly never Mortal, to The Witch King -

Though i would contest Anduril would have and Glamdring also- and certainly Sting too -Though Both Sting and Glamdring were Elven - and Glamdring of Great Antiquity - of Gondolin, was it not? - and A King's Sword too if i recall correctly?


But we come back to Fate yet again - That sword woven with Runes made long ago - Serpents and jewels entwined - and as Gor rather interestingly conjectures - likely bound with the Elemental Power of FIRE -

in the Hands of a Hobbit cringing down amdist a Field of War, wearing an Elven cloak, and Eowyn -Shield Maiden Of the Roihirrim standing before her Lord and Kin...

Fey, and deadly, in Sunlight that the winds of fate had brought up on the wings of the Sea, dispelling the darkness afore time...

[Gordis]

Sorry, Alcuin, but it's difficult for me to believe that the evil spirits would have been those of Elves. Surely no Elf would have been foolish enough to rebel in the third Age? My suspicions are caused by the fact that I have never read such material. :o I'm a hu- no wait, an Elf. ;) A sceptic one. :p
What do you imply, Sceptic Elf? That Alcuin has made it up? :confused:
Well, he didn't - he only told it in a more comprehensible manner.
Here is the quote:
It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own’s will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them. -Laws and Customs...

I advise you to read "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in HOME X - it is a must for every Elf. ;)

[Gordis]

Actually this isn't what we are told - Ere the Muster of Rohan we are told that prior to the Grey Company taking the Paths of the dead a great Host of the Dead had ridden up and ridden through "as if to keep a tryst" ... and this was news from Dunharrow
That likely means that the original dwellings of the Men of the Mountains had encompassed a larger area. Not all of them were hanging around in Aragorn's passage.
But even so - what do you expect them (The Dead) to do? Go on package Holidays? ... Take the family for a few days with bucket and spades to the Beach at Dol Amroth? :D:confused: I expect them to stick to the place where they once lived, of course.

As to my take on the Barrow Blades, i think the side journey into their metallurgy or making is a dead end. Nor need they be specifically meant, made for, or designed specifically with wraiths or the King of Angmar in mind - This opinion contradicts the following quote about the WK after Weathertop:
But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan.- RC page 180.

Though i would contest Anduril would have and Glamdring also- and certainly Sting too -Though Both Sting and Glamdring were Elven - and Glamdring of Great Antiquity - of Gondolin, was it not? - and A King's Sword too if i recall correctly?
The King's sword, Narsil, was made by a Dwarf - Telchar of Nogrod.
And there is the quote No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
"No other" means not Anduril, not Glamdring, not Sting - just this one from the Barrow-Downs.
In the First Age wraiths were not such a problem as they have become in the Second and the Third Age. For the Calaquendi elves from the Silmarillion wraiths posed little threat, if any. Those who had seen the Light of the Trees dwelt in both Worlds and in both the Seen and the Unseen they wielded great power. Why bother to make some specific anti-wraith blades?

[Butterbeer]

Hmmm. :D

Barring the bucket and spade thing.... i fear i disagree.


Whilst the East wind bears no tidings...what news from the Wind of the Dead?

Is it, Gor..our part to remake Histories based on quotes - or to interperate what we read as was written?

Which, think you, would Tolkien have prefered?

Had Aragorn and Narsil, a Blade, mark you, that merely shattered at the cutting of the One from Sauron's finger back in the day..and reforged with spells and runes to counter his Evil -

Had.. Tolkien written him in to that scene - think you it would have changed the narrative?

Nay...

Let us discuss with open minds, and not try to second guess a Dead man's work :)

[Valandil]

Hmmm... for discussion's sake, I suppose we could ask the question of whether JRRT was writing this in an 'omniscient, author' mode - or if these were the words of the halfling scribe who was chronicler of the event - and taking a rare opportunity to exalt his own.

[Alcuin]

Thank you, Gordis, for the quote. I had not the time (nor inclination, after long days and nights in the Núrnen salt-mines) to look it up.

Had Aragorn and Narsil, a Blade, mark you, that merely shattered at the cutting of the One from Sauron's finger back in the day..and reforged with spells and runes to counter his EvilNarsil did not shatter cutting the One Ring from Sauron’s hand. It broke beneath Elendil when he fell in the final battle with Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin. Tolkien’s description of the battle seems to indicate that Sauron was cornered on the slopes of the volcano by a sortie led by Gil-galad and Elendil supported by CÃ*rdan, Elrond, and Isildur. I would assume that he was attempting to make his way to the Sammath Naur, the Chamber of Fire, where the Ring was forged and where Gollum later fell to his death clutching the Ring after biting it from Frodo’s hand. (Sammath Naur seems to be the very center of Sauron’s power, the place where he diverted the power of the volcano to his purposes, including forging the One Ring.) Elendil and Gil-galad engaged Sauron in hand-to-hand combat; Elendil was slain, fell upon his blade, and it broke beneath him; Gil-galad skewered Sauron with his spear, Aiglos, but was burned so badly by the heat from Sauron’s body that he died. (In having a black and burning body after reconstituting himself following the ruin of Númenor, Sauron resembles traditional demons of literature and religious myth and also The Balrog of Moria.) Sauron’s physical form was so seriously damaged by Gil-galad and Elendil, however, that it was unable to maintain a housing for his spirit (cf. the damage to Gandalf after his fight with the Balrog, or the fate of the Balrog itself), and his spirit was unable to maintain itself there: it disassociated from the physical form that Sauron had built up in the same way that the fëa and hröa of incarnates are dissociated when they die. Isildur, taking the hiltshard of Narsil – the part with the handle – cut Sauron’s finger with the Ring on it from his hand in much the same way that Gollum bit Frodo’s finger bearing the Ring from his hand. CÃ*rdan and Elrond begged him to throw the Ring into the lava, but its malicious power began to work immediately on Isildur, who kept it “‘as weregild [death payment] for my father, and my brother.’â€� Elendil was eventually entombed atop the hill that the Rohirrim later called the Halifirien in Firien Wood; what became of Gil-galad’s body is not said, but it is possible that it was entirely consumed. An interesting question is what became of the rest of Sauron’s corpse, as there must surely have been one, since Isildur cut the Ring from it.

[Gordis]

Butterbeer - about Narsil.

When Narsil had been forged by Telchar in the Dwarven city of Nogrod back in the First Age, wraiths were not a big issue, as I have pointed out. Orcs and Dragons and Barlogs were far worse. So it wouldn't be enspelled against wraiths specifically. Most likely there was some general spell against Evil, or maybe against all possible enemies (including Elves;)), and some runes of protection for the owner.

When Narsil was reforged in Rivendell in autumn of TA 3018, wraiths were a big issue indeed, so undoubtedly the Elven smiths of Elrond would have had them in mind first and foremost. But, as I have argued earlier in this thread, the secret of forging the anti-wraith blades seemed to be lost with the Men of Cardolan. Elves never knew this spell, otherwise they wouldn't be churlish enough to keep it from the Dunedain of the North, their protegés, and from Earnur who was so keen on wraith-hunt.
Thus I don't believe that Anduril would have been as deadly to a nazgul as a Barrow-Downs blade.

Also the magick of the Elves differed from what the Men wielded: it was more a part of the Elves' nature than some elaborate spells. Men, in contrast, were not supposed to wield any magick and what they learned, was, sorry to say, always smacking of Morgul. Maybe it was wielded with good intent (like in the case of the Men of Cardolan), but still the spells on the BD blades were like counter-spells to those on Morgul-blades, and likely of almost the same nature, from the same grimoire, so to say.
Simply speaking, it is not like Elves wielded Magick of the Seventh Level :eek:and Men only reached Third Level:(, no: it was an entirely different type of magick. That is my take on it.

Alcuin I am almost sure that Isildur managed to cut Sauron's finger before his spirit had left the body.
For one thing, Isildur said that it was he who delivered the killing blow (and this he said to Elrond and Cirdan who had witnessed the whole scene, so he couldn't lie):But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?'

2. then there is this quote:
But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places- "Of the Rings of Power..."
And what is most important, in the letter 211 Tolkien writes:
Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring” back to Middle-earth after the drowning of Numenor. So, if Isildur but waited a tad longer, the spirit of Sauron would have carried away the One Ring, leaving Isildur with no weregild!

As for Sauron's body, I guess it has decomposed as swiftly as Saruman's - weren't they both incarnate Maiar? Maybe faster, because it was indeed hot and burning. Natural combustion-and there is nothing to dispose of.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Interesting take, Gordis. I think we may need a new thread: Who Really Killed Sauron in the Last Alliance?

Seems to me a lot of readers feel that Gil-Galad and Elendil killed Sauron's body and then Isildur cut off The Ring, and a lot of other readers feel that Sauron was still alive when Isildur cut off The Ring.

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer since much depends on interpretation of the quotes already given.

[Gordis]

Interesting take, Gordis. I think we may need a new thread: Who Really Killed Sauron in the Last Alliance?

Seems to me a lot of readers feel that Gil-Galad and Elendil killed Sauron's body and then Isildur cut off The Ring, and a lot of other readers feel that Sauron was still alive when Isildur cut off The Ring.

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer since much depends on interpretation of the quotes already given.

I don't think the difference is that great, DPR. Anyway Sauron was already down, barely alive and offered no resistance to Isildur's blow. It definitely didn't happen the way it was shown in the movie.:(

[Alcuin]

...Isildur said that it was he who delivered the killing blow (and this he said to Elrond and Cirdan who had witnessed the whole scene, so he couldn't lie):But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?'Gordis, where'd this quote come from? The second sentence isn't in FotR; it isn't unfamiliar, and I think I've read it before, but I can't quite place it. I can't find it in Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales.

[Valandil]

Alcuin - I just checked. It's in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".

[Alcuin]

Thank you, Valandil. It certainly looked familiar, but I could not place it.

Then it would seem that Gordis is correct: Isildur delivered the “death blow,â€� at least to that incarnation or avatar of Sauron, It is not said that Isildur stuck him more than once or in any place other than his hand; yet the passage seems (at least to me) to indicate that Isildur’s cutting the Ring from Sauron’s hand might have taken place after Sauron was “dead,â€� an afterthought after the demon had ceased to move, and that implies that CÃ*rdan and Elrond had been whacking him, too.

But as regards striking a wraith, no incarnation of Sauron appears to have been a wraith. The wraiths – barrow-wights, Ring-wraiths, and lesser wraiths (as Gandalf told Frodo he might have become) – existed in the “wraith-world,� whatever that is (it seems to be identical, or at least visible to, the “other side� in which the partially faded Elves such as Glorfindel existed, which would explain at once both how the Rings slowed the fading of the Elves and how the lives of Men who used the Rings had their lives “stretched�; and in addition, this would almost certainly have been a “forbidden� art that tampered with the structure of Middle-earth and with the fates of both races of Incarnates). I strongly suspect that the shattering swords – in the barrow, on the Pelennor Field, and in other battles in which the Dúnedain faced the Nazgûl – was because the blade cut a creature that existed mostly in the “wraith-world.�

I wish I were up for a more structured and coherent argument, but the salt-mines beckon.

[Noble Elf Lord]

What do you imply, Sceptic Elf? That Alcuin has made it up? :confused:
Well, he didn't - he only told it in a more comprehensible manner.
Here is the quote:


I advise you to read "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" in HOME X - it is a must for every Elf. ;)

This sceptic Elf does not think that Alcuin made it up, just thought that it may be something like my memory of the Dark Knights of Minas Morgul. :)
I wish I could read it, but I doubt it has been translated in Finnish. :( Have to keep looking though. :D

Refresh my memory: what does "faded "Elf" mean? :confused:

And please, start another thread for who-killed-Sauron-in BotLA. :)

[Gordis]

What does "faded Elf" mean?

Fading is the biggest Elven problem there is, much like early death is for Men.

In the original design of Eru all Arda was supposed to be much like Valinor, suitable for Elves, where they could live happily till the End of Time. But Arda had been marred by Melkor, which broke the design of Elvish immortality: in Arda marred, Elves slowly and inevitably fade, their bodies gradually becoming invisible.
First they appear like sad shadows of their former self, until at last they are naught but wraiths (much like the nazgul, in fact, but not evil). Only in Valinor can Elven fading be delayed, which is one reason all Elves have no choice but to go to Valinor in the end.
One of the special abilities of the Elven Rings of Power was that they could delay time, and as such were used to prevent fading in Rivendell and Lorien. After the destruction of the One ring the ancient Elves had no possibility to stay in ME, so in the FA the Eldar left for Valinor.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Fading is the biggest Elven problem there is, much like early death is for Men.

In the original design of Eru all Arda was supposed to be much like Valinor, suitable for Elves, where they could live happily till the End of Time. But Arda had been marred by Melkor, which broke the design of Elvish immortality: in Arda marred, Elves slowly and inevitably fade, their bodies gradually becoming invisible.
First they appear like sad shadows of their former self, until at last they are naught but wraiths (much like the nazgul, in fact, but not evil). Only in Valinor can Elven fading be delayed, which is one reason all Elves have no choice but to go to Valinor in the end.
One of the special abilities of the Elven Rings of Power was that they could delay time, and as such were used to prevent fading in Rivendell and Lorien. After the destruction of the One ring the ancient Elves had no possibility to stay in ME, so in the FA the Eldar left for Valinor.

Thank you, my favorite Nazgûl! :D Then again, this makes me wonder when I'll start to fade, or if it has already began. :eek: ...... well, I can still see myself and such.... :evil:

[Gordis]

Thank you, my favorite Nazgûl! :D Then again, this makes me wonder when I'll start to fade, or if it has already began. :eek: ...... well, I can still see myself and such.... :evil:

That is not for long. *ominous music* One day you will look into the mirror and see nothing... :eek:
Welcome to the Other Side - a nice company awaits you...:D

[Varnafindë]

Then again, this makes me wonder when I'll start to fade, or if it has already began. :eek: ...... well, I can still see myself and such.... :evil:

I've been warned about that as well - and to make sure to leave for Valinor while there is still time ... :eek:

[Alcuin]

As for “faded Elves,� recall Legolas running across the snow in the Redhorn pass, his feet leaving “little imprint in the snow.� Perhaps that was always a characteristic of Elves, and not a product of their “fading.� But the great draw of the Rings of Power was to prevent Elves, and the Noldorin smiths who followed Celebrimbor in particular, from suffering this effect in Middle-earth.

Minas Morgul was polluted beyond redemption,I am not sure about the type of this pollution: was it ecological, (like the unwholesome river Morgulduin and the meadows with a tendency to grow poisonous white flowers), or cultural (bed reputation, horrible memories connected with the place), or magical - the residual evil magic that Aragorn and K were unable to overcome. Maybe there were still a lot of wraiths and ghosts haunting the place - for real, not figments of imagination?All of these, though the “cultural� issue seems least important to me. The flowers of Morgul Vale drove men mad: it is reminiscent to me of stories of people who lie down in the poppy fields during opium harvest: they are overcome by the raw opium, and never awaken again. (I.e., they overdose and die from raw opium in the air beneath the poppies.) Aragorn ordered them to burn those fields on his march to the Morannon: a wise move, as long as the wind was from the West. The place had become a den of evil as vile as Dol Guldur or Barad-dûr: torture, necromancy, and probably its own share of lesser wraiths (although with the end of the One Ring, the lesser wraiths were probably set free). But unlike Dol Guldur and Barad-dûr, which were built in whole or in part using the power of the Rings, Minas Ithil was built by the Númenóreans immediately upon their arrival from the wreck of Númenor, and it did not fall as did Sauron’s other two principal fortresses. The foundations of Barad-dûr survived the War of the Last Alliance because, imbued with Sauron’s power at the same time that he completed the Ring (see Appendix B for the year II 1600), they could not be destroyed; Dol Guldur was not ruined by the mere cessation of the Rings: Appendix B says in part in the entry for March 25 III 3019 that “Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits.�

Back on track: as for Elves and magic and barrow-blades: the Elves did not use “magic� per se: they used the power of Arda, and their own power, and it seemed to Men that it was magic, I believe. Although it is often erroneously attributed to Asimov or Niven, both of whom quoted it, Arthur C Clark first postulated that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws), “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.� Fëanor was pretty clearly (to my mind) practicing what he would have called “technology,� and even Tolkien says that the Noldor represent the study of technology and science.* That the Elves did not entirely comprehend the ignorance of Men in this regard is reflected in Galadriel’s comment to Sam and Frodo in the chapter “The Mirror of Galadriel�: …this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

The Númenóreans were also capable of “magic,� at least from the viewpoint of the Men of Middle-earth, the Men of Twilight: their ships, their weapons, and their longevity all seemed magic, but their longevity had to do with their acclimating themselves to the Elvish mode of living (I cannot immediately locate the citation, and hope that no one will press to hard for it: the salt-mines are still demanding more and more time), and of course their knowledge had been greatly increased by contact with the Eldar first for their forebears in Beleriand and later in Númenor, where their culture and their knowledge were further enriched by visitors from Tol Eressëa. Besides this, the Elves had centuries, even millennia, to come to understand their world, while Men – and we are Men – are bound to a short span, so that we must learn quickly and pass along what we have found (or think we have found) to those who come after, inevitably losing many things (e.g., just exactly how were those megalithic monuments, from Stonehenge to the pyramids, constructed? or the exquisite Etruscan gold jewelry, which we cannot duplicate even today?) even as we discover other things. So it was that, before the fall of the North Kingdom, some smith(s) of the Dúnedain discovered how to undo the necromantic spells that bound a man to the wraith-world, rendering him vulnerable to being killed outright. The discovery was subsequently lost, the weapons he (or they) manufactured were stored in a barrow infested with a barrow-wight (possibly by the Witch-king himself: the wight was a fierce and safe enough guardian; my personal opinion is that the Dúnedain used the barrows as refuges and strongholds, initially took the weapons there themselves for storage, and were subsequently killed or died and failed to pass along the hiding place until the barrow was infested), where they were found by Bombadil, who recognized them for what they were and equipped the hobbits with them.

An interesting sideline: Bombadil was certainly around during the wars between the North Kingdom and Angmar: he and Goldberry had known the people buried in the mound and were apparently fond of them; Aragorn knew him (why did he not speak up immediately when he heard Bombadil bidding farewell to Frodo and his companions?); and so I think it is likely that he had helped the Dúnedain from time to time over the long years of the Third Age. Yet the Witch-king seems never to have been aware of “old Bombadil,� and in Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader's Companion, the pursuing Nazgûl erroneously attribute the destruction of the barrow-wight to the Ring-bearer, over-estimating his power.

And a final note before I have to leave this most interesting topic and return to the salt mines: if, as we all seem to agree, the Witch-king had been struck by weapons before, and all the Nazgûl feared fire, can we not also agree that the Nazgûl had suffered various physical injuries during their approximately 4,600 years of existence as wraiths? And what was done about this: I mean, were they “healed,� brought back to “health� and made “hale� again? Tolkien says (Letter 212) that, Longevity or counterfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith. Gollum healed when injured, but he was not yet wraithified; what about the Nazgûl? And if they could not be injured, why else would they fear Glorfindel or fire?

-|-

* “…the Noldor ... were always vulnerable on the side of ‘science and technology,’ as we should call it�, Unfinished Tales, “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn�, footnote 8. This is in turn a quotation from Letter 153, where it continues, “…they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gil-galad and Elrond. The particular ‘desire’ of the Eregion Elves – an ‘allegory’ if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices – is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.�

[Butterbeer]

Salt mines???

(well, if you could make a delivery to The Pony, i'd be reet thankful..not but that the beer isnt great these days..but we need it for the salted peanuts....)

..........


Well, in a rather shorter manner, Alcuin rather summed up my point.

What "Magic" for lack of a better word, and to refer to what The hobbits call it, or the Rohirrim might say as Dwimmor-crafty ... the Numenoreans, be them Black Numenoreans or of the Faithful, or those that as previously speculated who become wraiths or the WK himself ...

whatever "magic", far sight, senses, perceptions and ability to "sorcery" whether in Runes, "technology" etc etc ... they had.. they inherited from the Elven blood in the Numenorean line -

It is and always has therefore, been Elvish in derivation.


On a side note, also there can be no doubt to my mind that the Nazgul, and wraiths in general were susceptible to damage, injury and certainly the physical form their undead sinews happen to inhabit -

two things - at the Flight to the ford of Bruinen - firstly we are told by Gandalf that they - or at least we think 8 of them had their physical bodies destroyed in the flood - and that shapeless they had as best they could get back to their master...

secondly - "There are few even in Rivendell that can openly ride against the Nine... Glorfindel is one of those" .... "they saw him (at the rise of the River at the fords) as he is on the Other side... as a lord of the firstborn..."

I have no doubt that Glorfindel could cause serious damage to them - and not merely to their physical bodies.

Finally - if a rider was to be de-mounted in Rohan - Gandalf: "Then let Rohan look to its Horses..."

again, evidence were it needed that their Host physical form could be damaged.

What is odd though is that whilst it is needed to sustain the armour and move the mace - when the WK enters the gate of Minas tirith and removes his Helmet - there is invisable his head, bar his crown.

Therefore suggesting a symbiosis of physical host form, and wraith.



P.s - when you deliver the salt... pop in to The Pony for a couple - The Ale is fantastic :)

[Gordis]

All of these, though the “cultural� issue seems least important to me. The flowers of Morgul Vale drove men mad: it is reminiscent to me of stories of people who lie down in the poppy fields during opium harvest: they are overcome by the raw opium, and never awaken again. (I.e., they overdose and die from raw opium in the air beneath the poppies.) Aragorn ordered them to burn those fields on his march to the Morannon: a wise move, as long as the wind was from the West.
Yes, I agree about poppies. :) But it is not difficult to get rid of poppies once and for all, as of any other unwanted plant.

If the Morgul Vale was indeed "twisted" with the power of the Nine Rings, its magic would quickly fade, like Lorien has faded. These two places are so much alike in many ways... and both are unwholesome to humans.;) Perhaps Time was also warped in the Morgul Vale - to let the wraiths live happily through their stretched years, as Elves lived in Lorien.

Anyway, all that would end with the Rings as would the nazgul and the human wraiths, wraithified by Morgul magic. They would finally go to Mandos.

Yet there was something that remained, something making the Valley and the old city unsalvageable in the Fourth Age: and it might have been the Houseless. Likely they have become free from their bounding spells (like those that kept them bound to stone statues, dead bodies, maybe also possessed living bodies). But free Houseless were dangerous nonetheless.


So it was that, before the fall of the North Kingdom, some smith(s) of the Dúnedain discovered how to undo the necromantic spells that bound a man to the wraith-world, rendering him vulnerable to being killed outright.
Yes, but counter-spells are "from the same magic book" as Morgul spells, I think. Elves wouldn't be capable of it.

An interesting sideline: Bombadil was certainly around during the wars between the North Kingdom and Angmar: he and Goldberry had known the people buried in the mound and were apparently fond of them; Aragorn knew him (why did he not speak up immediately when he heard Bombadil bidding farewell to Frodo and his companions?); and so I think it is likely that he had helped the Dúnedain from time to time over the long years of the Third Age. Yet the Witch-king seems never to have been aware of “old Bombadil,� and in Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader's Companion, the pursuing Nazgûl erroneously attribute the destruction of the barrow-wight to the Ring-bearer, over-estimating his power.

That is a very good question. We used to discuss this some years ago, and I thought there was a definite possibility that the WK and Tom had a cup of tea together, talking about good old times.:eek:
You see, Tom was a real chatterbox: Goldberry must have been already sick of it. Maggot and the other hobbits were not that entertaining to chat with, because being so young they couldn't contribute much to the talk about Angmar wars. Witchy on the other hand...:D

Yet, the new info in Reader's Companion suggests otherwise: it seems the WK had no idea about Tom.

How indeed did the WK manage not only to spend a few days on Tom's territory, but also to weave some spells that awoke "all things of Evil' in Tom's forest and upon the Downs? And not even once did Tom make an appearance, or chant a counter-spell, so that the WK remained oblivious to Tom's very existence?


if, as we all seem to agree, the Witch-king had been struck by weapons before, and all the Nazgûl feared fire, can we not also agree that the Nazgûl had suffered various physical injuries during their approximately 4,600 years of existence as wraiths? And what was done about this: I mean, were they “healed,� brought back to “health� and made “hale� again? Tolkien says (Letter 212) that, Gollum healed when injured, but he was not yet wraithified; what about the Nazgûl? And if they could not be injured, why else would they fear Glorfindel or fire?

Yes, I think they could be healed when injured, but perhaps it involved not only time and medicine but also magic spells. I personally think they needed their Rings to heal: at the end of the TA it meant that, when injured, they had to return to Sauron, as best they could. That is what has happened after the Flood at the Ford. Earlier, when they still had their Rings, they could heal themselves, or the Rings took care of it.

I take it they couldn't be gravely injured by mortals wielding ordinary weapons, but it doesn't mean they couldn't be injured by other things: heavy boulders rolling in the river, or a fall from a height.

The main thing was fire. I believe it had something to do with the Holy Flame of Anor, Flame Imperishable and such concepts.
On the more down-to-Earth note, the most feared creature for the nazgul was obviously Sauron, who was like a demon of fire, his very flesh capable to burn an Elf to cinders, and his Eye was likely burning naked souls in the Spirit World. And if Sauron (for obvious reasons) wouldn't kill one of his nazgul, he might very well have tortured them with fire, if he found them at fault. Wasn't he "conveying threats that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay"? Wasn't the fear of Sauron's wrath almost the only driving force behind the nazgul's bold and desperate actions at the Ford?

As for the Calaquendi Elves, like Glorfindel, who had access to the Spirit World, I don't even think they needed any special weapons, or any weapons at all to harm a nazgul. They could do it by magic, as nazgul's very existence was based on magic. Glorfindel's songs "were stronger songs" and the nazgul had no choice but to flee.

[Alcuin]

...there was something that remained, something making the Valley and the old city unsalvageable in the Fourth Age: and it might have been the Houseless. Likely they have become free from their bounding spells (like those that kept them bound to stone statues, dead bodies, maybe also possessed living bodies). But free Houseless were dangerous nonetheless.I had not before considered the Houseless Elves. That would have left the Barrow-downs dangerous territory as well.

Yes, but counter-spells are “from the same magic book� as Morgul spells, I think. Elves wouldn’t be capable of it.Maybe. I want to think about that for a while: perhaps the Elves would have “aged� or “faded� faster as a result; then again, the Dúnedain were extremely capable themselves, and we cannot rule out that one of them figured out how to “deal� with wraiths, but was either unwilling, unable, or unsuccessful in passing along the information (because of excessive secrecy, and accidental or deliberate death (such as assassination)).

…not even once did Tom make an appearance, or chant a counter-spell, so that the WK remained oblivious to Tom's very existence?Tom was not aggressive in any fashion: consider his relationship with the Old Forest: he was not ruler of the Forest, but things in the Forest – like Old Man Willow – responded to his power and authority. He did not threaten Old Man Willow with anything other than mild discipline, not real harm; while the Witch-king was accustomed to meeting hostility with hostility, violence with violent resistance; his presence and mechanizations provoked revulsion, anger, grief, rage, and unremitting sorrow – probably even from the barrow-wights, who were his “allies.� It is likely Tom did not resist the Witch-king: he tripped him up, he left his plans in tangles and knots so that they went inexplicably awry: just bad luck, it would have seemed, and others would have received the credit for his failure, as the Ringbearer did for the destruction of the barrow-wight.

Yes, I think they could be healed when injured, but perhaps it involved not only time and medicine but also magic...

I take it they couldn't be gravely injured by mortals wielding ordinary weapons, but it doesn't mean they couldn't be injured by other things: heavy boulders rolling in the river, or a fall from a height.

The main thing was fire. That would explain the comment that they were sent “shapeless� back to Sauron; the other interpretation of that would be that they had no “shape� in the normal world; the problem with that latter interpretation (to which I have always adhered in the past) is that they could still move things and affect people – though fear and even physical damage – without the black clothes that everyone could see.

Fire could operate as fire in both worlds: burns are nasty, particularly painful, and slow to heal; besides that, it scars. If, as you suggest, Sauron tortured them with fire, they could have been particularly sensitive to it; moreover, it would seem that their experience of the “other side� was physically cold (eg, Frodo’s phenomenology of feeling cold both to himself and to others; the barrow-wight’s chant; and the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat about being left “cold� on the “other side�). Perhaps fire was particularly nasty to the Ringwraiths in part because they were literally “cold�, and the normal intense heat of fire was to them even more intensely painful not only physically, but emotionally, psychologically, and even spiritually because of the its connections for them “back� to the normal world.

[Gordis]

That would explain the comment that they were sent “shapeless� back to Sauron; the other interpretation of that would be that they had no “shape� in the normal world; the problem with that latter interpretation (to which I have always adhered in the past) is that they could still move things and affect people – though fear and even physical damage – without the black clothes that everyone could see.

The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle.
Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton – see in HOME 6 or 7), or shapeshift into monstrous birds- vultures. In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! (By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like he did at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom.

But then, Tolkien decided that shape-shifting was mostly restricted to incarnate Maiar, not for Nazgul. After that, he changed the draft for the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.

But Tolkien didn't correct the "Fellowship� and the “Two Towers" accordingly. Not all of it, at least, some things he had missed. So Radagast's: "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's " the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living,� and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception. Yet when Tolkien later returned to the Bruinen ford episode in the “Hunt for the Ring� manuscripts (RC), he made it perfectly clear that none of the nazgul had lost his shape: they lost only their cloaks and boots (not a big issue), and the Witch-King had no difficulty riding his horse unclothed all the way to Mordor.


The worst bug connected with the former shape-shifting concept still remains in TT (the White Rider):
Gandalf: “For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. […]But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.

Just imagine a happy owner of a new car saying:
“Behold the new shape in which I have been clad�:eek::D
http://www.moneyunder30.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/newcar.jpg

[The Gaffer]

Excellent post, Gordis, really informative. Thanks.

I'm kind of glad he didn't go back and change those bits. They are the parts in which the reader first encounters them, and there's something a bit more creepy about the "shape" ambiguity stuff than the "pure spirit creature of fear" that attacks Minas Tirith.

[Alcuin]

“Behold the new shape in which I have been clad�:eek::D
http://www.moneyunder30.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/newcar.jpg
My, Gordis, is that you? I never imagined a Nazgul like that...

[Gordis]

My, Gordis, is that you? I never imagined a Nazgul like that...

No, Alcuin, it is not me- just a random picture from the net. I don't look like that at all and I don't have a new car (sigh).;)

[Noble Elf Lord]

In order to return to the topic about the blades: Come to think of it, there could have been a conspiracy of Wraiths: the "first" Nazgul destroyed, and then Sauron would have given (forced?) their Rings to other men? So all in all, in the Pelennor Fields we woulda had His Wraithy Highness Withcking the 3rd or so... :eek:

Just kidding of course. :evil:

Good points, everyone. Of Tom: I think he (")knew(") the hobbits would come in 3018, and could not reveal his safe haven/existence/dwelling to evil before that.

And BB- may I ask why are you writing so... difficultly? I mean, it's difficult to read, cause it feels like the thoughts on the text are not finished, and are suddenly just brought to an abrupt halt. I don't know if others find this difficult, but I do... :confused: :)

[Attalus]

Well, both Elrond and Gandalf seemed to know him quite well.

[Gordis]

know whom? :confused:

[Attalus]

know whom?

Um, Tom Bombadil.

[Gordis]

:eek::DIn order to return to the topic about the blades: Come to think of it, there could have been a conspiracy of Wraiths: the "first" Nazgul destroyed, and then Sauron would have given (forced?) their Rings to other men? So all in all, in the Pelennor Fields we woulda had His Wraithy Highness Withcking the 3rd or so... :eek:


Actually there is no evidence that the Third Age nazgul are not the same guys who have been originally chosen by Sauron back in the mid-Second-Age. And while to replace a slain nazgul would have been theoretically possible in the Second Age, it was already impossible in the Third Age, while Sauron had no Ruling Ring, and thus had no way to corrupt and enslave new bearers of the Nine.

This means that for an Age and a half, out of the Nine, not a single one had been slain - which is a marvel in itself. Hardly any random group of, say, Elves could have shown such excellent survival rate.
So either the nazgul were indeed very hard to kill and could recover from almost any wound, or they were extremely cautious - or (most likely) both.


So great was the might and splendour of the Númenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him; and Sauron humbled himself, doing homage, and craving pardon.-App. A
Now what about the nazgul? Were they also among those who "deserted" their Master? -Unlikely, considering the mind-control he was supposed to have over them. But perhaps they showed such reluctance and apprehension that Sauron just abandoned the matter as hopeless?

And of course there is the question of the absence of the Nine at Orodruin. None intervened when their Lord and Master was being hacked to pieces by Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur.
Were they perhaps sitting nearby, safe in their invisibility, placing bets?:eek::D

[Alcuin]

I’ve thought about that. I think that Sauron was “making a break for it” – he was headed to Orodruin, perhaps to induce an eruption from the volcano that he hoped to use to destroy his enemies. Whatever his purposes, he was almost certainly headed to the Sammath Naur.

There are several armies around Barad-dûr at this point: Gil-galad and his Elves, Thranduil son of Oropher and his Elves, the Númenóreans, and the Dwarves. (And of course, the Eagles, who always appear the end of every battle.) In addition, there may have been other Men in alliance with the Dúnedain: the Northmen and the Men of Rhovanion, ancestors of the Beornings, the Rohirrim, and the Men of Dale.

I think that the only explanation is that Sauron left Barad-dûr not alone, but with a personal guard. Where were the Nazgûl? Some of them could have been set to other tasks: leading forces to break the siege, trying to raise troops in the East and South, rallying and leading the Black Númenóreans (a task for the Witch-king and the other two Númenórean Ringwraiths), etc. But at least some of them must have been in the personal guard, I think.

Now Sauron was very powerful, and Tolkien tells us in Letters that he should be thought of as “very terrible.” He had been re-embodied for at most 138 years, the period between the ruin of Númenor when his body was destroyed and the battle on Orodruin. He should have been able to fight quite effectively.

His bodyguard, however, faced the best of the Dúnedain and the Eldar. His fortress must have been closely invested (i.e., the Last Alliance must have laid it siege very close to the fortress, trying to undermine it, or go through or over its walls). This probably means that there was yet another part of the force of the Last Alliance facing the outside, away from Barad-dûr, to prevent any attempts to lift the siege.

Once Sauron broke out of the fortress, he had to move about 25 miles in a direct line to Sammath Naur. RotK tells us that the path up the side of the mountain was a switchback path; of course, Sauron was in a bit of a hurry, and might have neglected to follow any switchback path. That would have made it somewhat harder for his guard to follow him; but whether they could follow or not, Sauron’s personal guard must be first peeled away in order to get to him: that’s the purpose of having a personal guard.

The implication is, I think, that by the time the battle had made its way onto the slopes of the volcano, only Sauron was left from his side; and on the other side, there were Gil-galad, Elrond, CÃ*rdan, Elendil, and Isildur. The rest – Sauron’s personal guard and all the other people fighting them – were left behind. Whether the guard was isolated, destroyed, or outrun by Sauron is probably not important.

Nazgûl are pretty tough critters, but Aragorn says that their primary power is fear, and no doubt, they were all in possession of their own Rings. Now, the power of fear is pretty tremendous; but fear needs something to feed upon, and an army of Faithful Dúnedain and Eldar, reinforced by allies at a distance, are not likely to offer much for fear to feed upon: the Eldar were not afraid of the Nazgûl, and the Dúnedain, bucked up by the Elven allies and fired up for victory, were unlikely to hold back, either. (Aragorn was not afraid of them, and apparently neither was Eärnur, whose horse bolted, but not his spirit. The text indicates that Boromir I, Steward of Minas Tirith and ancestor of Boromir in LotR, was not afraid of them either, and Faramir collapsed only because of Black Breath in connection with physical and emotional exhaustion in combination with an arrow wound.)

Any Nazgûl in Sauron’s personal guard would have been cut down or (once Sauron was vanquished) forced to try to escape literally unseen.

[Butterbeer]

... (And of course, the Eagles, who always appear the end of every battle.) ...

In Middle earth the expression.. "I ain't over till the Fat lady sings" never caught on for this very reason...

Rumours from Khazad Dum, tell of many cunning works of the Dwarves sent as presents to the Lord of the Eagles.

Sadly these alarm clocks, never caught on with the Eagles, ..nor the wonderfully silky Diaries sent by the Elves.

As to the Memo pads sent by the Dunedain...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.

When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?

[Noble Elf Lord]

I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.

When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?

Yep.

Sorry that I always jump into conclusions, but I do believe that they felt rather lost 1 and vengeful 2, not to mention fatigued3.(?) :confused: 1 :mad: 2 :( 3

[Gordis]

But at least some of the Nazgûl must have been in the personal guard, I think.
Sauron’s personal guard must be first peeled away in order to get to him: that’s the purpose of having a personal guard.
Any Nazgûl in Sauron’s personal guard would have been cut down or (once Sauron was vanquished) forced to try to escape literally unseen.
That makes the nazgul's 100% survival even harder to understand. Were the Nazgul literally impossible to kill without proper enspelled weapons? Or did they flee, regardless of Sauron's mind-control. (The Dark Lord likely had forgotten about them at the moment).
Otherwise they would have been cut down with the rest of Sauron's guard. After all, the personal guard of Elendil, Gil-Galad etc. the nazgul were fighting with were also quite tough guys, no doubt. And there may have been other Elf lords and Numenorean lords who remained to fight the nazgul: Celeborn, Thranduil, Amroth, Meneldur...

When Sauron was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?
I think that even before Sauron had been cut down, there had to be a moment when he forgot about the nazgul, minding only his own hide. The nazgul may have felt disoriented, as the orcs felt at the Black Gate in TA 3019, when Sauron's will left them, wholly concentrating on Frodo at Sammath Naur. There might have been a moment when the nazgul asked themselves: "What in Ungoliant are we doing here fighting these Elves?"
Perhaps it was at that moment that the nazgul "passed into shadows" - i.e. used their Rings to escape. Later they had enough time to assess the new situation and start to enjoy freedom.
I agree with NEL's answer, with a slight correction: :confused::eek::(:p
The text indicates that Boromir I, Steward of Minas Tirith and ancestor of Boromir in LotR, was not afraid of them either, and Faramir collapsed only because of Black Breath in connection with physical and emotional exhaustion in combination with an arrow wound.)

I think you don't make enough distinction between not being afraid and having enough guts to suppress one's fear and not act upon it. I think with the guys you have mentioned it was always the latter. The lucky Elves might have indeed felt no fear, but humans always did - it was the very essence of nazgul, former Men, that caused this horror in humans.

But suppressing one's horror again and again is unhealthy, maybe even more draining than surrendering to it. It is exhausting, leads to neurosis and what in ME is called "effects of the Black Breath".

[Alcuin]

Were the Nazgul literally impossible to kill without proper enspelled weapons? That would get my vote. (Maybe excepting fire; but perhaps that was just extremely painful.)
The nazgul may have felt disoriented, as the orcs felt at the Black Gate in TA 3019, when Sauron's will left them, wholly concentrating on Frodo at Sammath Naur. There might have been a moment when the nazgul asked themselves: "What in Ungoliant are we doing here fighting these Elves?"I can go with that, too.
Perhaps it was at that moment that the nazgul "passed into shadows" - i.e. used their Rings to escape. Later they had enough time to assess the new situation and start to enjoy freedom.Yes, I think that whichever Ringwraiths were with Sauron when he left Barad-dur did use their rings to escape. I suspect that Sauron could move very quickly at need, even trapped in a man-like body, so that whole event might actually have been over rather quickly, particularly once Gil-galad and Elendil checked Sauron's advance up the mountainside.
I think you don't make enough distinction between not being afraid and having enough guts to suppress one's fear and not act upon it. ... suppressing one's horror again and again is unhealthy, maybe even more draining than surrendering to it. It is exhausting, leads to neurosis and what in ME is called "effects of the Black Breath".I want to quibble with this. I think that controlling fear is not suppressing it: fear can drive people to accomplish things, too. I have never been in combat, and I hope I never will be, but I understand from my friends who have experienced it that fear can propel a man to do things he never thought he could do, and that onlookers can believe that he was courageous, not fearful, if the man can keep his fear under control. That is not to say that there are not men who do not know (or admit to knowing) fear, but that is how I understand something I have not experience firsthand.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hmm. If one masters his fear and perhaps even uses it to his advantage, is he still to be considered afraid?

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.