Gildor Inglorion

[Curufin]

Continuing this from a thread where we got rather off topic...

Gordis says: Gildor is actually the reason why I sort of dislike all Elves. I hated Gildor on my first LOTR reading and still dislike him (though now I understand his reasons better). After reading Silm, I have mellowed towards Elves in general, but there are some LOTR ones that I still can't stand.

Why? I think the moment they met Gildor was the point that I started becoming interested in LotR. He's always held a special place in my heart.

[Earniel]

There are worse Elves than Gildor, I think. Although his counsel wasn't exactly very helpful at times, :p the guy meant well.

[Curufin]

See, I was madly in love with him for a long time. :) I really like the guy. He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.

[Gordis]

Gildor and his company of HIGH ELVES (who live and have great power in both the Seen and the Unseen Words, who can openly fight nazgul) could have escorted the hobbits to Rivendell safely. It is like a whole company of Glorfindels. Gildor knew it, but still he sent the hobbits on their way alone and returned to his singing under the stars (quite an important business as compared to lowly mortal matters).:rolleyes:

What was it he said? The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.
Yea, right. And with that Gildor let 3 frightened little hobbits make their way to Rivendell alone - pursued by the Nazgul.
And what would have happened if Glorfindel the Elf shared this attitude?

Now compare it with the words of Barliman, the funny, fat, forgetful innkeeper:
They come from Mordor,' said Strider in a low voice. 'From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you.'
'Save us!' cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale; the name evidently was known to him. 'That is the worst news that has come to Bree in my time.' 'It is,' said Frodo. 'Are you still willing to help me?' 'I am,' said Mr. Butterbur. 'More than ever. Though I don't know what the likes of me can do against, against———' he faltered.
'Against the Shadow in the East,' said Strider quietly. 'Not much, Barliman, but every little helps.
Of course, unlike Butterbur, Gildor had a fair face and golden hair and was so “shiny� and mysterious all through – so some readers are willing to pardon him anything and love him nonetheless.:p

[Earniel]

The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.

The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.

[Gordis]

The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.
That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

Getting them a pack horse and especially keeping his mouth shut (the latter must have been hard) was all Barley was realistically capable of. And it might have turned to be quite dangerous - don't forget that the very angry Witch King and 6 nazgul passed through Bree the very next night, abandoning all secrecy, throwing down the gates. If the WK only stopped for a moment to search the Pony, it would have turned quite ill for Barley.

The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.
Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.
A whole squard of singing HIGH Elves would have been a perfect protection from the nazgul. And Gildor did send a messenger to Rivendell to warn Elrond, who arrived nine days before the hobbits. Now why couldn't Gildor et al go with them?
'Then Gandalf has reached Rivendell?' cried Frodo joyfully.
'No. He had not when I departed; but that was nine days ago,' answered Glorfindel. 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south.-Flight to the Ford

[Earniel]

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.
And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track. Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.
Hmm, they seemed to have been smart enough to understand that running into the black riders was not in their best interest. I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.

[Jon S.]

>> The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Though I do agree with Earniel as well: it is perilous to judge on the basis of snippets of 3rd-hand conversations. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, only that we proceed humbly.

[CAB]

I think Gildor's inactions are pretty much indefensible. He knew that Frodo was carrying a "great burden without guidance". He knew that Frodo was being pursued by Sauron's greatest servants. He knew that Gandalf didn't show up when expected. In short, he knew that something very important was happening, that Frodo was in the middle of it, and that he was in deep trouble. The speed with which Gildor's messenger reached Rivendell is evidence of Gildor's knowledge, I think.

I used to believe that Gildor's inaction was due purely to apathy (see the quote Gordis gave), but I wonder now what role fear played. I don't mean fear of the Nazgul as much as fear of "meddling in the affairs of wizards" and mostly fear (or at least reluctance) of doing something.
In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much."
Gildor to Frodo
This seems to be a common weakness among Elves. Often they must be greatly pressed before they take action. I would say this is a rather poor way to live for humans, but maybe it makes sense for immortals. This hesitance of Elves to act probably also helps explain why Men are more adaptable and, in the end, are a more "successful" race.

And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track.
I don't think this fits with the advice Gildor gave Frodo.
"I also advise this: do not go alone. Take such friends as are trusty and willing."
Gildor to Frodo
I think we can agree that the importance of stealth is a given, still it is the need for companionship and aid that Gildor mentions. But really, I can't imagine how the hobbits would have been better off alone at this point than with Gildor's people. I also don't see the hobbits secrecy being hurt by the Elves' presence either, at least if they could stop singing for a while.

Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.
Gildor didn't know that Frodo had the Ring, only an unnamed "great burden".

I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.
They just barely made it to Buckland and had to be rescued by Bombadil twice while alone vs seeing a Nazgul run away when the Elves came near. I think they were unquestionably better off in the Elves company.

[Gordis]

I agree with CAB on all points. (Hi, CAB :))
And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track.
The nazgul have already spotted the hobbits, were hunting them. It was a good enough indication that something was up. Not a single nazgul had been seen in the North for the last 1000 years and it was clear that this time the Nine were hardly on vacation, but instead wanted this "burden" Frodo carried.
Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.
This doen't match Gildor's words and actions. Those who spend their time gazing West into the palantir and singing hymns to Elbereth are hardly ambitious. They are half-gone already in minds, maybe fading in bodies.
Noldor used to be ambitious in the First Age, but not anymore (even Galadriel, the most ambitious one). I don't think they would be in danger simply escorting the Ring. And Men did have even worse track record on controlling their ambition, but that didn't prevent Aragorn from escorting the hobbits almost all the way.

I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.
Apart from what CAB has already said, I will quote "the Hunt for the Ring" in RC, showing that nothing but pure luck and the nazgul's mistakes saved the hobbits on their way to Buckland and that they would have been much better off with the Elves.
After dark, becoming acutely aware of the Ring, Khamul goes in pursuit; but is daunted by the sudden appearance of the Elves and the song of Elbereth. While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves he cannot perceive the Ring clearly.RC p.91
As soon as the Elves depart Khamul renews his hunt, and reaching the ridge above Woodhall is aware that the Ring has been there. Failing to find the Bearer and feeling that he is drawing away, he summons his companion by cries. He is aware of the general direction that the Ring has taken, but not knowing of Frodo's rest in the wood, and believing him to have made straight eastwards, he and his companion ride over the fields. They visit Maggot while Frodo is still under the trees. Khamul then makes a mistake (probably because he imagines the Ringbearer as some mighty man, strong and swift): he does not look near the farm, but sends his companion down Causeway towards Overbourn, while he goes north along it towards the Bridge. They tryst to return and meet one another at night; but do so just too late. Frodo crosses by ferry just before Khamul arrives. His companion joins him soon after. Khamul is now well aware that the Ring has crossed the river; but the river is a barrier to his sense of its movement. RC p. 116

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Though I do agree with Earniel as well: it is perilous to judge on the basis of snippets of 3rd-hand conversations. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, only that we proceed humbly.
I am judging on the basis of his actions that match his words only too well.
As for "regular earth," imagine a large group of hikers meeting three lost children in the woods far from any civilization. The boys say that they have lost their dad and are being pursued by mounted killers. Now the hikers give them something to eat and abandon them, not wishing to burden themselves with the other's problems or to change the own route.
How would you judge the hikers? Probably they did nothing criminal per se, but they were hardly nice either. And if the children were killed, that would be largely their fault. Is that not so?

[Curufin]

I think Gildor's inactions are pretty much indefensible. He knew that Frodo was carrying a "great burden without guidance". He knew that Frodo was being pursued by Sauron's greatest servants. He knew that Gandalf didn't show up when expected. In short, he knew that something very important was happening, that Frodo was in the middle of it, and that he was in deep trouble. The speed with which Gildor's messenger reached Rivendell is evidence of Gildor's knowledge, I think.
I think this is when we need to step back and look at the War of the Ring from an entirely Elvish perspective. It's really not that big of a deal. Yeah, yeah, so there's this Ring and Sauron wants it back so that he can conquer the people of Middle-earth, yadda yadda. How does that affect the remnant of the Noldor? It doesn't (with the possible exception of Galadriel and Lothlórien). Sauron's bad, sure, but he's not half as bad as Morgoth, and the Valar took care of him in the end. They'll surely take care of Sauron too, who is only a rather powerful Maia. Heck, let Gandalf take care of him, for that matter. Ilúvatar and the Valar aren't going to let the world be ruled by evil, and anyway, fighting hasn't worked out so good for us in the past...

I used to believe that Gildor's inaction was due purely to apathy (see the quote Gordis gave), but I wonder now what role fear played. I don't mean fear of the Nazgul as much as fear of "meddling in the affairs of wizards" and mostly fear (or at least reluctance) of doing something.

I don't think it's that at all. There are two reasons that come to mind: 1) Gildor's heading west. He's obviously weary, and probably 'waning.' Why else would he be going west? He's likely been in Middle-earth far longer than Glorfindel, who was, of course, sent back. Gildor's likely been there since he crossed the Helcaraxë, or soon after. Give him a break - the guy's worn out and Middle-earth is eating at his soul. ;) 2) He's of the house of Finarfin. These guys weren't particularly known for fighting, but for wisdom and talking. Finrod's contribution to Middle-earth? Keeping his oath, getting mauled by a werewolf, and having a rather interesting conversation with Andreth about life and death. We're not talking about a battle-hardened warrior family here.

This seems to be a common weakness among Elves. Often they must be greatly pressed before they take action. I would say this is a rather poor way to live for humans, but maybe it makes sense for immortals. This hesitance of Elves to act probably also helps explain why Men are more adaptable and, in the end, are a more "successful" race.

Yeah, and Túrin's counsel that Nargothrond do otherwise seemed to prove the Elvish point. :rolleyes:


I also don't see the hobbits secrecy being hurt by the Elves' presence either, at least if they could stop singing for a while.

You mean, other than the fact they glow like giant gleaming torches from the Wraith world? Nah, won't hurt their secrecy at all...;)

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Gildor's tired, people. He wouldn't be heading west if he weren't. Give him a break - it's not isolationism, he's going into retirement.

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

He gave his advice. Remember, he is of the House of Finarfin - not known for their great fighting skills.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.
A whole squard of singing HIGH Elves would have been a perfect protection from the nazgul. And Gildor did send a messenger to Rivendell to warn Elrond, who arrived nine days before the hobbits. Now why couldn't Gildor et al go with them?

Right, so it would have been even easier for the Nazgúl to find them! Great idea! :p

Nazgúl 1: Where are those rascally hobbits and the Ring?
Nazgúl 2: Hmm...maybe over there, surrounded by ten giant flaming torches???

:p

[Gordis]

I think this is when we need to step back and look at the War of the Ring from an entirely Elvish perspective. It's really not that big of a deal. Yeah, yeah, so there's this Ring and Sauron wants it back so that he can conquer the people of Middle-earth, yadda yadda. How does that affect the remnant of the Noldor? It doesn't (with the possible exception of Galadriel and Lothlórien).
You forget that it were NOLDOR who forged those accursed Rings in the first place. Your own son Celebrimbor in fact.:p and his dear buddy Annatar.

1) Gildor's heading west. He's obviously weary, and probably 'waning.' Why else would he be going west?
He was not going West - yet. He was wandering in the Shire with no clear purpose at all - and for a long time:
‘We know many things,’ they said. ‘We have seen you often before with Bilbo, though you may not have seen us.’
When they met the hobbits, they were returning from Elostirion where they looked into the Palantir.

You mean, other than the fact they glow like giant gleaming torches from the Wraith world? Nah, won't hurt their secrecy at all...;)
See my previous post: "While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves the nazgul cannot perceive the Ring clearly.RC p.91"

Sure the nazgul would be aware of the group of High Elves heading to Rivendell. Maybe they would understant that they carried the Ring. So what? Could they attack them? - hardly. They were only Nine, without any orcs or trolls at their disposal. They have repeatedly retreated seeing the lone Glorfindel. And don't forget how the nazgul hated gymns to Elbereth. :p

[Gordis]

He gave his advice. Remember, he is of the House of Finarfin - not known for their great fighting skills.
Finrod did reasonably well. His songs were powerful - and if they were not powerful enough to best Sauron in his first incarnation, they might have been enough for the poor ringless ringwraiths. Gildor could try, you know.
When Beren called on Finrod, it was not just some advice he received.

[Curufin]

You forget that it were NOLDOR who forged those accursed Rings in the first place. Your own son Celebrimbor in fact.:p and his dear buddy Annatar.

Yeah, but he disowned me, so not my problem. :rolleyes:


He was not going West - yet. He was wandering in the Shire with no clear purpose at all - and for a long time:

When they met the hobbits, they were returning from Elostirion where they looked into the Palantir.

He was heading in the general direction of West. :p And:

'...we too are now only tarrying a while, ere we return over the Great Sea.'

So they're soaking up the 'beauty' of Middle-earth a little, and then leaving. Suffice it to say they won't be sticking around long.


See my previous post: "While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves the nazgul cannot perceive the Ring clearly.RC p.91"

But I don't think this really matters. They don't have to see the Ring to know it's going to be highly protected, and make assumptions that it's with them.

Sure the nazgul would be aware of the group of High Elves heading to Rivendell. Maybe they would understant that they carried the Ring. So what? Could they attack them? - hardly. They were only Nine, without any orcs or trolls at their disposal. They have repeatedly retreated seeing the lone Glorfindel. And don't forget how the nazgul hated gymns to Elbereth. :p

Perhaps they wouldn't have attacked them outright. But if they had a clear indication of where the ring was they could surely have acquired trolls and orcs, etc - backup, if you will. I don't think they ever would have reached Rivendell.

In addition, they wouldn't have met up with Strider, which would have caused a mess of its own. :p

[Curufin]

Finrod did reasonably well. His songs were powerful - and if they were not powerful enough to best Sauron in his first incarnation, they might have been enough for the poor ringless ringwraiths. Gildor could try, you know.
When Beren called on Finrod, it was not just some advice he received.

But Gildor isn't Finrod, who was arguably much stronger, as he had not been subject to nearly as much 'fading'.

As for Beren - Gildor hadn't made any oath to Frodo and co. ;) Not as if he's got to repay any hobbits for saving his life.

[CAB]

I think this is when we need to step back and look at the War of the Ring from an entirely Elvish perspective. It's really not that big of a deal. Yeah, yeah, so there's this Ring and Sauron wants it back so that he can conquer the people of Middle-earth, yadda yadda. How does that affect the remnant of the Noldor? It doesn't (with the possible exception of Galadriel and Lothlórien). Sauron's bad, sure, but he's not half as bad as Morgoth, and the Valar took care of him in the end. They'll surely take care of Sauron too, who is only a rather powerful Maia. Heck, let Gandalf take care of him, for that matter. Ilúvatar and the Valar aren't going to let the world be ruled by evil, and anyway, fighting hasn't worked out so good for us in the past...
Yes, at the end of the Third Age the Elves didn't seem to care very much. They would be leaving soon. Of course during the First and Second Ages they gladly goaded Men into helping them out with their wars with Morgoth and Sauron. I would say that seems very selfish, but realistic is probably just as accurate. My problem is when we see people with this attitude as being very noble. Gildor is a good example.


I don't think it's that at all. There are two reasons that come to mind: 1) Gildor's heading west. He's obviously weary, and probably 'waning.' Why else would he be going west? He's likely been in Middle-earth far longer than Glorfindel, who was, of course, sent back. Gildor's likely been there since he crossed the Helcaraxë, or soon after. Give him a break - the guy's worn out and Middle-earth is eating at his soul. ;) 2) He's of the house of Finarfin. These guys weren't particularly known for fighting, but for wisdom and talking. Finrod's contribution to Middle-earth? Keeping his oath, getting mauled by a werewolf, and having a rather interesting conversation with Andreth about life and death. We're not talking about a battle-hardened warrior family here.
1. Wasn't Gildor still around a few years later when Bilbo, Frodo, etc. took ship?
2. Are you suggesting that the Elves would only have gotten in the hobbits' way in a confrontation with the Nazgul. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Yeah, and Túrin's counsel that Nargothrond do otherwise seemed to prove the Elvish point. :rolleyes:
As I said, lack of action may have made sense for immortals. The Elves of Nargothrond could have waited until the Valar arrived, but this rescue would only have occurred after someone made something happen. And that someone, though ultimately made an immortal, identified himself more with Men than Elves.



You mean, other than the fact they glow like giant gleaming torches from the Wraith world? Nah, won't hurt their secrecy at all...;)
I could be mistaken, but I thought only Glorfindel, having been resurrected, glowed that way. If all the Noldor shown like torches, then how did they ever manage to sneak around so much during the First Age?


Gildor's tired, people. He wouldn't be heading west if he weren't. Give him a break - it's not isolationism, he's going into retirement.
If it isn't isolationism then it is practice for the even greater isolationism of life in Valinor. Maybe Gildor was getting lessons from some of the Valar?


He gave his advice. Remember, he is of the House of Finarfin - not known for their great fighting skills.
This is a poor excuse not to help. If I see a lost, crying child on the side of the road, should I walk by and say "Sorry, but I'm no good with kids"?


Right, so it would have been even easier for the Nazgúl to find them! Great idea! :p

Nazgúl 1: Where are those rascally hobbits and the Ring?
Nazgúl 2: Hmm...maybe over there, surrounded by ten giant flaming torches???

:p
Pippen told Gildor that a Nazgul was drawing near just as the Elves arrived. Why would he think that the hobbits could make it all the way to Rivendell without being caught when there were Nazgul already right behind? Nevermind that the hobbits didn't know how to get to Rivendell, weren't experienced travelers, didn't even know what the Nazgul were, etc. etc., but even their one supposed advantage (stealth) didn't seem to be working so well for them.


I am judging on the basis of his actions that match his words only too well.
As for "regular earth," imagine a large group of hikers meeting three lost children in the woods far from any civilization. The boys say that they have lost their dad and are being pursued by mounted killers. Now the hikers give them something to eat and abandon them, not wishing to burden themselves with the other's problems or to change the own route.
How would you judge the hikers? Probably they did nothing criminal per se, but they were hardly nice either. And if the children were killed, that would be largely their fault. Is that not so?
Good example Gordis (and hello to you :) ). I don't suppose you would judge the hikers any less harshly if they were tired and this was their retirement hike, would you?:rolleyes:

[Curufin]

Yes, at the end of the Third Age the Elves didn't seem to care very much. They would be leaving soon. Of course during the First and Second Ages they gladly goaded Men into helping them out with their wars with Morgoth and Sauron. I would say that seems very selfish, but realistic is probably just as accurate. My problem is when we see people with this attitude as being very noble. Gildor is a good example.

I'm not claiming it's a 'noble' attitude, or that by not helping the hobbits Gildor is in any way 'noble.' I just understand, and don't blame him for it.



1. Wasn't Gildor still around a few years later when Bilbo, Frodo, etc. took ship?
2. Are you suggesting that the Elves would only have gotten in the hobbits' way in a confrontation with the Nazgul. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I'm not saying they necessarily would have gotten in the way, but they certainly would have decreased the 'secrecy' element.

I could be mistaken, but I thought only Glorfindel, having been resurrected, glowed that way. If all the Noldor looked like shown like torches, then how did they ever manage to sneak around so much during the First Age?

All of the Caliquendi 'shone like torches.' Can't answer the second part, except to say that there weren't Wraiths yet in the First Age. And to say that they never really did that good at Sneaking.

This is a poor excuse not to help. If I see a lost, crying child on the side of the road, should I walk by and say "Sorry, but I'm no good with kids"?

No, but attempting surgery without a medical degree isn't intelligent either.


Pippen told Gildor that a Nazgul was drawing near just as the Elves arrived. Why would he think that the hobbits could make it all the way to Rivendell without being caught when there were Nazgul already right behind? Nevermind that the hobbits didn't know how to get to Rivendell, weren't experienced travelers, didn't even know what the Nazgul were, etc. etc., but even their one supposed advantage (stealth) didn't seem to be working so well for them.

Why should Gildor and co. care about Hobbits, or the Ring, anyway?


Good example Gordis (and hello to you :) ). I don't suppose you would judge the hikers any less harshly if they were tired and this was their retirement hike, would you?:rolleyes:

Of course she wouldn't. :p

[CAB]

I'm not claiming it's a 'noble' attitude, or that by not helping the hobbits Gildor is in any way 'noble.' I just understand, and don't blame him for it.


Why should Gildor and co. care about Hobbits, or the Ring, anyway?
Maybe I misunderstood your viewpoint Curufin. If you can appreciate the Elves while still seeing their shortcomings (no different than human shortcomings, really) then I applaud you. I am sure you will agree that many people see only the "shiny" aspects of the Elves without seeing their more self-centered side (the possession of which is a cost of being alive, I would argue).

[Curufin]

Maybe I misunderstood your viewpoint Curufin. If you can appreciate the Elves while still seeing their shortcomings (no different than human shortcomings, really) then I applaud you. I am sure you will agree that many people see only the "shiny" aspects of the Elves without seeing their more self-centered side (the possession of which is a cost of being alive, I would argue).

I wouldn't like the Elves if they didn't have faults. Faults are what make characters interesting. To understand and to sympathise with a character, they have to have strengths and weaknesses - without both they're simply cardboard cutouts and boring as sin.

My favorite character is Fëanor - I empathise and sympathise with him because of his faults, not in spite of them. And this carries over to the rest of the Ñoldor as well.

[CAB]

I wouldn't like the Elves if they didn't have faults. Faults are what make characters interesting. To understand and to sympathise with a character, they have to have strengths and weaknesses - without both they're simply cardboard cutouts and boring as sin.

My favorite character is Fëanor - I empathise and sympathise with him because of his faults, not in spite of them. And this carries over to the rest of the Ñoldor as well.

I agree with you. I usually don't try to pick a favorite this or favorite that when it comes to Middle Earth stuff, but I must say that Turin is my favorite Tolkien character, for the same reasons you gave for Feanor being yours.

[Curufin]

And yet I can't stand Túrin. :p More of a Ñoldor person, myself. :)

But I understand your reasoning!

As for Gildor, I see in him the culmination of everything that has befallen the Ñoldor - he's very reluctant to get involved in anything that is going to cause any more grief, and he really just wants to be left alone and allowed to go into the West. But that said, he does have a bit of good and nobility left within him - the reason he even goes so far as to give the Hobbits advice (when he really doesn't want to take them among them).

[Gordis]

Yeah, but he disowned me, so not my problem. :rolleyes:
Not a problem for his dad Curufin sitting in Mandos, no. But for other Noldor who deemed themselves noble? Isn't it mean to forge the Rings and then leave the perfectly innocent other Elves and Men to clear up the mess?

He was heading in the general direction of West.So they're soaking up the 'beauty' of Middle-earth a little, and then leaving. Suffice it to say they won't be sticking around long.
Yea, and the hell with ME - his home for 3 Ages. Welcome to the Paradise Island!:(

Perhaps they wouldn't have attacked them outright. But if they had a clear indication of where the ring was they could surely have acquired trolls and orcs, etc - backup, if you will. I don't think they ever would have reached Rivendell.
This I don't buy at all. Please, have a look at the map and tell me where could the nazgul get enough orcs or Trolls or whatever to deal with a company of High Elves? At such a short notice?

In addition, they wouldn't have met up with Strider, which would have caused a mess of its own. :p
That is a story-external reason. Gildor's Elves could have led Frodo to Rivendell much better than Strider. And unharmed to boot.

[Curufin]

Not a problem for his dad Curufin sitting in Mandos, no. But for other Noldor who deemed themselves noble? Isn't it mean to forge the Rings and then leave the perfectly innocent other Elves and Men to clear up the mess?

Hey now, the Ñoldor had nothing to do with the forging of the One Ring. Their rings never hurt anyone.


Yea, and the hell with ME - his home for 3 Ages. Welcome to the Paradise Island!:(

*sings* We gotta get out of this place...if it's the last thing we ever do... :p
Elves are fading. It's the time for men (and hobbits) to solve their own problems.


This I don't buy at all. Please, have a look at the map and tell me where could the nazgul get enough orcs or Trolls or whatever to deal with a company of High Elves? At such a short notice?

Hey, I didn't say it would be easy. But you do have a point. It would have been difficult to get 'back-up'.

That is a story-external reason. Gildor's Elves could have led Frodo to Rivendell much better than Strider. And unharmed to boot.

Ah, is it story-external, or is it simply part of the Music?

[Gordis]

Yes, at the end of the Third Age the Elves didn't seem to care very much. They would be leaving soon. Of course during the First and Second Ages they gladly goaded Men into helping them out with their wars with Morgoth and Sauron. I would say that seems very selfish, but realistic is probably just as accurate. My problem is when we see people with this attitude as being very noble. Gildor is a good example.
Thumbs up. Very well said, CAB.

I could be mistaken, but I thought only Glorfindel, having been resurrected, glowed that way. If all the Noldor shown like torches, then how did they ever manage to sneak around so much during the First Age?
There were no nazgul around (yet) and for ordinary Word of Light persons they had but a barely visible aura as if of moonlight– and that maybe only at night and when they didn’t mind to be seen, or when they chanted hymns..
We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter. Firstly, when writing this, Tolkien simply re-utilized a name from the Silm drafts. In LOTR Glorfy is not told to be reincarnated. Tolkien invented this story about re-incarnation only later (when he thought of publishing Silm together with LOTR) and had to decide why the two Elves had the same name.
Then there are quotes that seem to imply that G was not unique: 1. 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.

2. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'

The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor.

I'm not claiming it's a 'noble' attitude, or that by not helping the hobbits Gildor is in any way 'noble.' I just understand, and don't blame him for it.
One can hardly understand it when reading LOTR for the first time. That’s why I have found him disgusting. The readers are invited to look at Gildor through the eyes of naïve hobbits, Frodo and esp. Sam, besotted with Elves, but it didn’t work for me at all. All that glitter is not gold.

I'm not saying they necessarily would have gotten in the way, but they certainly would have decreased the 'secrecy' element.
Secrecy was necessary when the bearers of the Ring were heavily outnumbered :in Mordor. In the Shire it were the nazgul who were on enemy territory and used secrecy. Aragorn and three hobbits couldn’t hope to fight the Nine : hence their stealth. The stronger one needs no secrecy: and the High Elves were stronger than the nazgul, otherwise Khamul wouldn’t have retreated when the Elves “SUNG at him�.:eek:

Why should Gildor and co. care about Hobbits, or the Ring, anyway?
He was a Noldo, with a huge burden of responsibility for the Rings. Moreover, Gildor is sold as a noble character. Didn’t yourself say : “He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be�?
I can’t see any commendable qualities in him at all. Seeming fair and acting foul.:p

*sings* We gotta get out of this place...if it's the last thing we ever do...
Elves are fading. It's the time for men (and hobbits) to solve their own problems.
To solve the problems you made for us.:rolleyes: Noble Noldor left only when they could leave Men a clear board, after the ring was destroyed.

Hey now, the Ñoldor had nothing to do with the forging of the One Ring. Their rings never hurt anyone.
No??? Look at my empty hood! :eek: My fair face remains invisible, the other sex doesn’t find me attractive, I am cold on the other side, I miss coffee and chocolate, and I am a minion of an evil dude. No harm?:mad:

[Curufin]

Thumbs up. Very well said, CAB.
We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter.

I remember reading somewhere that it was all Caliquendi elves. I can't remember where. I'll look for it.

One can hardly understand it when reading LOTR for the first time. That’s why I have found him disgusting. The readers are invited to look at Gildor through the eyes of naïve hobbits, Frodo and esp. Sam, besotted with Elves, but it didn’t work for me at all. All that glitter is not gold.

I liked Gildor when I read LotR for the first time, before I'd ever even heard of The Silmarillion and just wanted to know what was going to happen in the next movie. :o To each their own, I suppose.


Secrecy was necessary when the bearers of the Ring were heavily outnumbered :in Mordor. In the Shire it were the nazgul who were on enemy territory and used secrecy. Aragorn and three hobbits couldn’t hope to fight the Nine : hence their stealth. The stronger one needs no secrecy: and the High Elves were stronger than the nazgul, otherwise Khamul wouldn’t have retreated when the Elves “SUNG at him�.:eek:

Alright, the truth: Gildor didn't want to put himself and his friends in danger again. He gave them advice and sent a message to Elrond. That was something. Remember, also, that he didn't know they had the Ring for sure.

He was a Noldo, with a huge burden of responsibility for the Rings. Moreover, Gildor is sold as a noble character. Didn’t yourself say : “He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be�?
I can’t see any commendable qualities in him at all. Seeming fair and acting foul.:p

We're also seeing him at the end of his life in Middle-earth. Who knows what he did earlier (although I doubt it was much, since he's of the house of Finarfin...). I don't think he's sold as 'noble' - just Elvish. I never got the feeling he was supposed to be some big, powerful elf-lord who should have helped and didn't. I got the feeling that he was an Elf they happened to come across, who was done with Middle-earth and really didn't want anything to do with them, but gave them a bit of help, nonetheless, and sent them on their way. I think it was a good illustration of Tolkien's theme that while men were waxing, elves were waning. Glorfindel is not Gildor. Glorfindel was sent back to fight. We don't see Elrond going with Frodo, do we? Or any of the elves of Rivendell or Lórien. Do we judge them differently? Why?


To solve the problems you made for us.:rolleyes: Noble Noldor left only when they could leave Men a clear board, after the ring was destroyed.

Men would have all been enslaved by Melkor if not for the Ñoldor. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :p


No??? Look at my empty hood! :eek: My fair face remains invisible, the other sex doesn’t find me attractive, I am cold on the other side, I miss coffee and chocolate, and I am a minion of an evil dude. No harm?:mad:

Maybe I should have said that they never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it. :p

[Gordis]

Glorfindel is not Gildor. Glorfindel was sent back to fight. We don't see Elrond going with Frodo, do we? Or any of the elves of Rivendell or Lórien. Do we judge them differently? Why?
Elrond couldn’t go, he had to stay home with his Vilya to protect Rivendell and maintain its magic barriers. Yet he did send both his sons to war. And he did insist on appointing two Rivendell Elves to the Fellowship, but was overruled by Gandalf. Rivendell is OK.
Lorien? Never liked the White Witch, but I think there was no point to add a member to the Fellowship at this point. Hobbits had to go to Mordor alone, I am sure that was the Wise’s plan all along. Why would the selfish Galadriel send Lorien Elves to battle to Minas Tirith?
Men would have all been enslaved by Melkor if not for the Ñoldor. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Melkor was the first to pay attention to the Secondborn. He had no feuds with them – before the Elves have enlisted the Edain to their side.
Maybe I should have said that they never hurt anyone who didn't deserve it.
How could the future nazgul deserve their fate if the Elves never warned them about the Rings and the real reason of their war with Sauron, won only by the Numenorean intervention?

[CAB]

There were no nazgul around (yet) and for ordinary Word of Light persons they had but a barely visible aura as if of moonlight– and that maybe only at night and when they didn’t mind to be seen, or when they chanted hymns..
We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter.
I still see this as being a problem. Surely there were other evil beings that could see the Spirit World, especially in the First Age. The best example I can think of is Sauron in Finrod's tower. How could Finrod, Beren, and Co. possibly have thought they could sneak by if Finrod (and probably some of his companions) were glowing like torches?

[Curufin]

Elrond couldn’t go, he had to stay home with his Vilya to protect Rivendell and maintain its magic barriers. Yet he did send both his sons to war. And he did insist on appointing two Rivendell Elves to the Fellowship, but was overruled by Gandalf. Rivendell is OK.
Lorien? Never liked the White Witch, but I think there was no point to add a member to the Fellowship at this point. Hobbits had to go to Mordor alone, I am sure that was the Wise’s plan all along. Why would the selfish Galadriel send Lorien Elves to battle to Minas Tirith?

You really have a bone to pick with the Ñoldor, don't you? :rolleyes: My point is that both Galadriel and Elrond had more to gain/lose from the success of the Hobbits' quest than Gildor and co. Why judge Gildor so harshly when he doesn't have a foot in this game?

Melkor was the first to pay attention to the Secondborn. He had no feuds with them – before the Elves have enlisted the Edain to their side.

No feuds with them. Are you actually saying that Melkor would have helped them out and forgotten his evil ways if the Elves hadn't come in at just the wrong time? Sorry, don't buy it. Read The Tale of Adanel again, buster. :p

How could the future nazgul deserve their fate if the Elves never warned them about the Rings and the real reason of their war with Sauron, won only by the Numenorean intervention?

Ah, I see. So it's the fault of the elves that the kings were greedy. I see. Are other Nazgúl this unwilling to take responsibility for their actions?

I still see this as being a problem. Surely there were other evil beings that could see the Spirit World, especially in the First Age. The best example I can think of is Sauron in Finrod's tower. How could Finrod, Beren, and Co. possibly have thought they could sneak by if Finrod (and probably some of his companions) were glowing like torches?

Beren wouldn't have had a problem. Finrod - don't know. I do know that he used a Song of Power to disguse them as they went, maybe that helped.

[Earniel]

I also don't see the hobbits secrecy being hurt by the Elves' presence either, at least if they could stop singing for a while.
I daresay Elves were easier to find for the nazgul then Hobbits. And Hobbits are known for their stealth.

Gildor didn't know that Frodo had the Ring, only an unnamed "great burden".
Knowing Gildor, he may just have been cryptic? If he knew the black riders were nazgul and were hunting Frodo, I'm sure he put two and two together.

They just barely made it to Buckland and had to be rescued by Bombadil twice while alone vs seeing a Nazgul run away when the Elves came near.But they wouldn't have needed Elves to save them from the nazgul, which was the original point, wasn't it? That the Elves should have escorted the Hobbits to keep the nazgul away?

I think (if I recall correctly) the nazgul pretty much lost track of the Hobbits, only found them again shortly at the ferry and then lost them again when they entered the Old Forest, but I daresay they would not have done so if they were tracking a bunch of Noldor as well as Hobbits. Also, Frodo was still holding up pretense of retiring to Crickhollow, that wouldn't have worked out grandly with a dozen of Elves going along.

This doen't match Gildor's words and actions. Those who spend their time gazing West into the palantir and singing hymns to Elbereth are hardly ambitious. They are half-gone already in minds, maybe fading in bodies.
Depends on interpretation, I think. Even the sons of Fëanor didn't always go "Rwar, oath, killkill. Silmaril, mine!" Their ambition might still have been rekindled, if they stayed near the Ring long enough for it.

Sure the nazgul would be aware of the group of High Elves heading to Rivendell. Maybe they would understant that they carried the Ring. So what? Could they attack them? - hardly. They were only Nine, without any orcs or trolls at their disposal. They have repeatedly retreated seeing the lone Glorfindel. And don't forget how the nazgul hated gymns to Elbereth. :p
You never know. They might have found enough evil creatures around to use. And the nazgul hate fire too, but that didn't stop them from attacking the Hobbits on Weathertop, nor from attacking Gandalf the wizard there a few days before. It's not because they choose at some points to pull back that they were incapable of offenses. They just needed to be with enough, and maybe have their captain along for the ride. They might definitely have stepped up hostilities if Gildor sent Elves along with the Hobbits.

To say the Elves would have been enough kept the nazgul at bay and get the Hobbits into Rivendell without a scratch is IMO to greatly underestimate the Nine. (Really, Gordis, I'm surprised at you. ;))

And it's not as if Gildor did absolutely nothing. Okay, his advice was not the most practical. But he did take the Hobbits along for a bit, effectively obscuring the traces for the nazgul, and making it harder for the black riders to pick up their trail again. Gildor gave the Hobbits food and a safe place to sleep. It may not have been much, but it must have bought the Hobbits some time. Gildor may have thought it time enough.

This is a poor excuse not to help. If I see a lost, crying child on the side of the road, should I walk by and say "Sorry, but I'm no good with kids"?
I don't know about you, but if I came across three grown-ups that were not only going the other way than me but were followed by something nasty that may be frightened by me for a short while, but could still be very dangerous, I wouldn't be volunteering to join them either. It is not my opinion that these were Gildor's reasons for not going along, but I do think the comparison of lost and helpless children is slanted. It makes every decision NOT to go along look like the cowardly an wrong one, which I think is not entirely applicable on this situation.

[CAB]

I daresay Elves were easier to find for the nazgul then Hobbits. And Hobbits are known for their stealth.
Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).

Knowing Gildor, he may just have been cryptic? If he knew the black riders were nazgul and were hunting Frodo, I'm sure he put two and two together.
The message concerning the "great burden" was given to the people of Rivendell, not Frodo. Why be cryptic with them?
But they wouldn't have needed Elves to save them from the nazgul, which was the original point, wasn't it? That the Elves should have escorted the Hobbits to keep the nazgul away?
I think (if I recall correctly) the nazgul pretty much lost track of the Hobbits, only found them again shortly at the ferry and then lost them again when they entered the Old Forest, but I daresay they would not have done so if they were tracking a bunch of Noldor as well as Hobbits. Also, Frodo was still holding up pretense of retiring to Crickhollow, that wouldn't have worked out grandly with a dozen of Elves going along.
The Nazgul probably would never have got the chance to catch the hobbits, considering how poorly the hobbits were doing on their own. Some other evil being would have beat them to it. Gordis pointed out earlier that only luck had saved Frodo from the Nazgul before they got to Bree. As for Frodo going to Crickhollow, that plan probably should have been abandoned once the hobbits realized they were being pursued before they ever left the Shire. Of course things did work out. Frodo was a very lucky guy.


Depends on interpretation, I think. Even the sons of Fëanor didn't always go "Rwar, oath, killkill. Silmaril, mine!" Their ambition might still have been rekindled, if they stayed near the Ring long enough for it.
This is possible, if Gildor knew that Frodo had the Ring (not at all a certainty). Also, as Curufin has pointed out, these Elves were of the house of Finarfin, and so were probably less likely to be pulled by the Ring.
I don't know about you, but if I came across three grown-ups that were not only going the other way than me but were followed by something nasty that may be frightened by me for a short while, but could still be very dangerous, I wouldn't be volunteering to join them either. It is not my opinion that these were Gildor's reasons for not going along, but I do think the comparison of lost and helpless children is slanted. It makes every decision NOT to go along look like the cowardly an wrong one, which I think is not entirely applicable on this situation.
Compared to a dozen or so Noldorian Elves, I can very easily see the hobbits as lost children. They don't know how to get to their destination, or what lies between, they don't know what is following them, and they would be no match for their pursuers if they met. None of this is true for Gildor's Elves. The reason his decision looked wrong is because it was wrong. Whether or not it was cowardly I think is questionable.

[Gordis]

I still see this as being a problem. Surely there were other evil beings that could see the Spirit World, especially in the First Age. The best example I can think of is Sauron in Finrod's tower. How could Finrod, Beren, and Co. possibly have thought they could sneak by if Finrod (and probably some of his companions) were glowing like torches?
Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).
Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?
The moment the flood appeared, [Glorfindel] rushed out, followed by Aragorn and the others with flaming brands. Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness. But they didn’t even pause to look at Glorfy when they followed Frodo on Asfaloth. Perhaps he didn’t glow much then?
The fading Frodo when he was travelling with Glorfindel only noted that “a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil�. But later at the Ford he saw “a shining figure of white light�.

Maybe Finrod and Co could mask their glow entirely?

My point is that both Galadriel and Elrond had more to gain/lose from the success of the Hobbits' quest than Gildor and co. Why judge Gildor so harshly when he doesn't have a foot in this game? Sure – as the Ring returning to Sauron meant the total disaster for the bearers of the Three. As for Gildor, he was not personally interested – a nice occasion for him to show his "quality". Well… he did.:eek:

No feuds with them. Are you actually saying that Melkor would have helped them out and forgotten his evil ways if the Elves hadn't come in at just the wrong time? Sorry, don't buy it. Read The Tale of Adanel again, buster. :p
No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.

Ah, I see. So it's the fault of the elves that the kings were greedy. I see. Are other Nazgúl this unwilling to take responsibility for their actions?
Who said that the Kings were greedy? PJ’s scriptwriter, not Tolkien.
No one would throw an Elven ring in a gutter – especially if they had no idea of the ring’s origins and the real price they would have to pay. Greed has nothing to do with it.

To say the Elves would have been enough kept the nazgul at bay and get the Hobbits into Rivendell without a scratch is IMO to greatly underestimate the Nine. (Really, Gordis, I'm surprised at you. )
To answer this question one has to know the number and powers of Gildor’s elves. I have got an impression that they were about a dozen. Am I wrong? If so, maybe all the Nine assembled could attack them, indeed.
Now, let us write a fanfic plot, taking into account the data from the Hunt for the Ring.
Gildor takes the hobbits under his wing for the night. Khamul and his Dol Guldur buddy wait hiding nearby (as they actually did). In the morning the Elves depart east towards the Ferry. The nazgul search around, go to Maggot etc. and only by the afternoon (at the earliest) they discover that the Elves have taken the hobbits with them. Khamul and his buddy watch impotently how the Elves ferry the hobbits across. For two lesser nazgul it would be suicidal to attack the company of High Elves. In the night, the 4 nazgul (now 2+ the one by the bridge + the one on the main road) cross Baranduin by the bridge and likely ride to fetch the Witch-King (+2 others) who were half a day’s ride south from Bree - at Andrath. By the time they find him somewhere in the Barrows the hobbits and Elves would reach Bree and pick up Aragorn. So, if the hobbits are finally attacked, the situation would be much better for them than on Weathertop , because there would be a dozen High Elves in addition.
Note on the track Bree-Rivendell it was not stealth that had saved the hobbits, for the nazgul did find them, but Frodo’s Barrow-blade, Aragorn torches and the name of Elbereth. The latter was especially ominous because it indicated Frodo’s association with the High Elves (RC). Wouldn’t the presence of High Elves in person be more efficient still?

[Curufin]

Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?
But they didn’t even pause to look at Glorfy when they followed Frodo on Asfaloth. Perhaps he didn’t glow much then?
The fading Frodo when he was travelling with Glorfindel only noted that “a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil”. But later at the Ford he saw “a shining figure of white light”.

Maybe Finrod and Co could mask their glow entirely?

Darn it, I can't find that quote anywhere (that talks about glowing Calaquendi elves. I'll keep looking).

Sure – as the Ring returning to Sauron meant the total disaster for the bearers of the Three. As for Gildor, he was not personally interested – a nice occasion for him to show his "quality". Well… he did.:eek:

I think you're asking too much of Gildor here. It's not like he does anything wrong. He gives them good advice, takes them in for the evening, gives them food, and sends a messenger to Elrond. And the hobbits never ask for their help either, now do they? And Gildor doesn't know what he's up to, either, or why he's running. He certainly has guesses, but he doesn' t know for sure. I think he does what he can, in the circumstances. It's not like Frodo comes up to him and says 'Hey, Gildor, you know, you're a Calaquendi Ñoldo, and you could really help us out, since we're trying to take this Ring of Power out of the Shire and the Nazgúl are after us.' No, Frodo tells them that they're trying to get out of the Shire in secret. Now how is Torch-boy going to help with that?


No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.

:eek: Wow. You really have passed over to the darkside. Morgoth didn't just rule the poeople, he was a tyrant, as was Sauron.


Who said that the Kings were greedy? PJ’s scriptwriter, not Tolkien.
No one would throw an Elven ring in a gutter – especially if they had no idea of the ring’s origins and the real price they would have to pay. Greed has nothing to do with it.

It's been a while since I've read LotR, if I'm conflating it with the movie, I'm going to have to contemplate suicide. Despite that, you can't tell me that the Nazgúl were perfectly nice and good and noble before the Elves came around and gave them rings to wear. They would have noticed pretty quickly that something was a bit...odd...about those rings.

[Jon S.]

FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.

If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.

[Curufin]

FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.

Gildor didn't know his circumstances. And Gildor wasn't 'regular folk.' He was a fading remnant of a waning people who saw very little connection left to Middle-earth, and had absolutely no interest in hobbits. Look at it this way:if you were walking around the forest towards an important destination (even if you could take your time to get there), and you saw several ants scampering in the other direction, followed by several bees, would you go out of your way to go rescue those ants when it means you could get stung? Or, another example, if you were in the forest and saw several deer running in one direction, followed by several wolves, would you go out of your way to save the deer, when it meant you could get eaten? I really doubt it. And that's how Gildor saw the Hobbits. It wasn't his place to interfere, nor was it something he really cared about. He helped them out as he could, and then moved on. To turn the question around, what on earth was in it for him to join in the quest?

If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.

And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.

[Curufin]

The point is that this wasn't Gildor's fight, and he didn't see himself as involved in the struggles of men (or hobbits).

[Earniel]

I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20. We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).
Considering the story is never told from the Nazgul point of view, it is difficult to establish for real how they saw the Elves at specific moments. The nazgul tracking Frodo may have been aware of the Elves, but may have been too consumed with sniffing to pay closer attention. Also, sight in the wraith world is a bit confusing, according to Frodo's and Sam's accounts of it. Distances are warped. The nazgul may have been aware of the Elves' presense, but not immediately of their proximity, he may have hoped to go about his business before the Elves arrived.

Although since the nazgul have been in the wraith world for so long, they should have adjusted to the warp better than the hobbits who only popped in an out on occasion. So that probably isn't a workable argument. So I'm more convinced of the nazgul being to focussed on the ringbearer to give much notice to the Elves (glowing or not) presence until he had to.

The message concerning the "great burden" was given to the people of Rivendell, not Frodo. Why be cryptic with them?
Fear of eavesdroppers? The Ring is not a topic that should be discussed carelessly in these times.

Of course things did work out. Frodo was a very lucky guy.
Um, so? I'm not sure how this is an argument. Some characters are lucky, some aren't, a lot of things turned out to be very lucky in LoTR in the end. It's what the story requires.

The reason his decision looked wrong is because it was wrong.Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I fear. :)


No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.
I think a lot will disagree with that. Snaga for example, if I'm not mistaken. People under Sauron got to the top by viciously kicking on the ones below them. The Southrons and the Haradrim fought for their own honour to the death, not Sauron IMO.

To answer this question one has to know the number and powers of Gildor’s elves. I have got an impression that they were about a dozen. Am I wrong? If so, maybe all the Nine assembled could attack them, indeed. Now, let us write a fanfic plot, taking into account the data from the Hunt for the Ring.
It might have gone like that, and it might not have gone like that. The possibilities on this point are pretty much endless. But think also of this: if the Elves had been present, no Hobbit would have ended up with a Barrow sword. They'd have avoided the Barrow Downs or had travelled over it during the safe day.

[Gordis]

If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.
I second that. Really Curufin, your last arguments present Gildor even in a worse light than I have implied.:p


And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

And the hobbits never ask for their help either, now do they? And Gildor doesn't know what he's up to, either, or why he's running. He certainly has guesses, but he doesn' t know for sure. I think he does what he can, in the circumstances. It's not like Frodo comes up to him and says 'Hey, Gildor, you know, you're a Calaquendi Ñoldo, and you could really help us out, since we're trying to take this Ring of Power out of the Shire and the Nazgúl are after us.' No, Frodo tells them that they're trying to get out of the Shire in secret. Now how is Torch-boy going to help with that?

Look, Curufin, some hobbits being hunted by nazgul is not an everyday occasion - NOT like deer being followed by wolves. They are not in the same food-chain, so to speak. It is like having wolves hunting bugs -an occasion worth investigating. And Gildor did figure it out - all on his own:
‘I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you,’ answered Gildor; ‘but I perceive that he is - strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side.’

We know he had guessed about the "heavy burden" that the hobbits were carrying. Maybe he didn't know WHAT it was - but he never asked. It is as simple as that - he could simply ASK Frodo and get the answer. But he was afraid to ask, afraid to be committed, though he understood the hobbit's peril much better than the hobbits themselves did. It was much more natural for Gildor to offer help than for Frodo to ask for it. The hobbits had NO idea what the Nazgul were. They did not know there were NINE of them, not 1-2. They had no idea of the powers of Calaquendi Noldor. They had no idea about the road to Rivendell. They didn't know Strider waited for them in Bree. They were entirely in the dark. Gildor knew much more and could have learned everything if he but asked.

Frodo told Gildor they had to get out of the Shire - but would that save them? How could Gildor know that Aragorn was waiting for the hobbits in Bree? I think you all agree that, but for Aragorn, the hobbits would have hardly gotten beyond the Forsaken Inn.

I don't believe Gildor didn't have a suspision about the nature of this "burden". He did guess - that's why he didn't ask for more info. Because otherwise, he would have to face it: he was sending the Ruling Ring straight to Sauron's hand, dooming his kingswoman Galadriel (of the house of Finarfin) AND her son-in law Elrond AND her only grandchildren AND the realms of Lorien and Rivendell AND also, (as far as he likely supposed) Cirdan and the Havens - summarily all the Elvish realms in Middle Earth.
If the Ring were taken by Nazgul in late September, the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell likely wouldn't even have time to flee to Valinor, except Gildor himself - who was so close to the Havens.

I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20. I never thought it were even possible for Elrond and Cirdan to take the Ring from Isildur without killing him. And killing him would have led to war between Elves and Men. Much more likely is to suppose thast they used another occasion to get rid of Isildur and to put all the blame on the orcs.

We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.
He did have some foresight - or was it an educated guess? :p:
‘Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!’

I think a lot will disagree with [Sauron being an equal opportunity employer]. Snaga for example, if I'm not mistaken. People under Sauron got to the top by viciously kicking on the ones below them.
Most will disagree, sure, brainwashed as they are by Elvish and Tark propaganda.:p
Snaga was not at the top of orkish social scale - but still he had his place in Mordor. Could an orc serve Gondor or Rohan if he so wished? - No, he would have been hunted down like an animal. In Mordor an orc, an Easterling and even a Numenorean could have got a nice place, if he earned it.

The Southrons and the Haradrim fought for their own honour to the death, not Sauron IMO. And why they were honor-bound to fight to death for the loosing side? Because of the oaths they have sworn to Sauron, I think. The Easterlings and the Haradrim hated Gondor - and for good reasons, see the Appendices. Under Sauron they were much better off. He was a competent ruler, if a bit on the tyrannical side :rolleyes:, giving them equal rights and introducing new technologies. :cool:

you can't tell me that the Nazgúl were perfectly nice and good and noble before the Elves came around and gave them rings to wear. They would have noticed pretty quickly that something was a bit...odd...about those rings.
We don't know how exactly the nazgul got their rings - not from Elves, but from (likely disguised) Sauron. There were 1001 possible ways and pretexts to slip a ring to an unsuspecting Man. And when they understood that something was amiss, it was far too late. The Elves themselves didn't dare to wear their Rings even for an hour while Sauron wielded the One (see Silm). And yea, I think most of them (if not all) used to be perfectly well-meaning and noble - that's why Sauron had to use the Rings on them, not hoping to sway them otherwise. See the quote below, which, when written in the draft in HOME 6, likely referred to the Witch-King:
Gandalf: ‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Gildor: "Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!" :eek:

Even the Hobbits themselves seemed enamored with Elves. They dropped the last sentence from most copies of the Red Book. :p

Seriously, though, wonderful arguments on both sides here. While Tolkien surely didn't intend Gildor or any of the isolationist Elves to come across negatively, Gordis makes excellent and logical points that are difficult to deny.

[Earniel]

Most will disagree, sure, brainwashed as they are by Elvish and Tark propaganda.:p [...] Under Sauron they were much better off. He was a competent ruler, if a bit on the tyrannical side :rolleyes:, giving them equal rights and introducing new technologies. :cool:
Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave! :p You really are a nazgul, Gordis. ;) I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion at least once before so I'm not going to go into this again.

[Gordis]

Gildor: May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!" :eek:

:D:D:p

[CAB]

Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?
Hmm…yeah, that could explain it.
We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.
I believe I understand what you are saying Earniel (though this may pertain more to Curufin's argument), but I still strongly disagree. We all regularly walk by or look the other way when someone or something could use our help, and usually the reason for doing so is pure convenience. We each have our own lives to live and there are simply too many situations where we could give our time and effort. There aren't enough hours in the day.

But there are times when we do go out of our way for strangers, and this should have been such an occasion. To me, the reason is quite clear. That reason is the extraordinary magnitude of the situation, something that would be difficult to parallel in the real world. Although Gildor probably didn't fully appreciate the importance of what was happening (but he may have), he had to have a pretty good guess (also, as Gordis pointed out, he conveniently didn't ask too many questions).

Gildor's list of excuses (which, yes, we all look for) is quite thin in my opinion. He apparently had no pressing business (he himself said he was tarrying). He wasn't traveling with children. Yes he could say it wasn't any of his concern and was dangerous. These are reasons people often give not to help others. Accepting that we are all selfish beings, I would say these are typically good reasons. But again, this isn't a typical situation. The well being of every person in Middle Earth (who couldn't run away to Valinor, at least) hinged on Frodo getting to Rivendell and Gildor, if he didn't know it, had to strongly suspect it.

I didn't give the excuse that the Elves' presence would be a disadvantage to Frodo because I will never believe it. That these pitifully underprepared hobbits were better off alone that with a group of Noldorian Elves doesn't at all ring true and it isn't one of the reasons Gildor himself gave (those would be apathy and fear). If Gildor knew that Frodo's burden was the Ring, he had little reason to fear its effect on him and his companions because he couldn't possibly have known about Gollum's story and his was the only case of someone other that a ringholder being twisted by a ring of power at that date.

Even if we accept that the Elves' presence would have compromised the hobbits' stealth (I don't), still that stealth was already failing. And stealth won't feed you on a long road when you get hungry and stealth certainly won't get you to a valley that you don't know how to find.

Frodo never would have made it to Rivendell without further aid. Gandalf knew it, Aragorn openly said it, and Gildor knew it too.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

In addition, Gildor must have at one time felt an affinity for Middle Earth and/or its inhabitants. Otherwise, he would have left with most other Noldor after the War of Wrath. So either something changed for him (perhaps he really was beginning to fade) or something about his behavior doesn't add up.

[Curufin]

I think it's quite likely that he was starting to fade. After all, they'd been in Middle-earth for around 7,000 years at this point...

[Gordis]

I think it's quite likely that he was starting to fade. After all, they'd been in Middle-earth for around 7,000 years at this point...
Yes, to prevent fading, one had to spend most of his time in the time-warped realms of Lorien and Rivendell, not to wander somewhere in the Shire or around Elostirion. If Gildor did so regularly, he was quite likely more faded than Galadriel.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Not to change the subject, but is fading reversible? I mean, could one become rejuvinated and regain strength of body, even if only temporarily?

[Gordis]

Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave! :p
Slaves normally don't feel honor-bound to fight to death for a lost cause. They would happily turn tail and flee. But we are really digressing from the topic of the noble Gildor Inglorion...

[Curufin]

Slaves normally don't feel honor-bound to fight to death for a lost cause. They would happily turn tail and flee.

Not so. You're underestimating the mental control many slave-holders have over their slaves, as well as the 'brainwashing' power. But this is severely off topic.

As Eärniel and I have both said, people are judging Gildor with 20/20 hindsight. To repeat: he didn't know what was going to happen with the Hobbits later on down the line.

In addition, they didn't ask for help:

‘You do not ask me or tell me much that concerns yourself, Frodo,’ said Gildor. ‘But I already know a little, and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions. You are leaving the Shire, and yet you doubt that you will find what you seek, or accomplish what you intend, or that you will ever return. Is not that so?’

Frodo won't tell Gildor anything.

And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?

[Gordis]

Not to change the subject, but is fading reversible? I mean, could one become rejuvinated and regain strength of body, even if only temporarily?

Maybe only in Valinor?

However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress :p) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow.

Maybe an Elf wearing one of the Nine would never fade. The hroar of Men were also strengthened, but they were never meant to endure long: thus they were preserved from ageing and death, but started fading like Elven hroar instead.

[Curufin]

Maybe only in Valinor?

However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress :p) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow.

Maybe an Elf wearing one of the Nine would never fade. The hroar of Men were also strengthened, but they were never meant to endure long: thus they were preserved from ageing and death, but started fading like Elven hroar instead.

Hmm, an interesting idea, Gordis, although of course there is no textual support for it. ;) Personally, I doubt that it could completely stop fading - I don't believe that anything made by Elves could completely reverse the marring of Melkor - but perhaps it significantly slows it...

[Gordis]

As Eärniel and I have both said, people are judging Gildor with 20/20 hindsight. To repeat: he didn't know what was going to happen with the Hobbits later on down the line.
I agree: Gildor didn’t know what was going to happen with the Hobbits “later on down the line�. He didn’t know they were going to get to Rivendell safely after all – regardless of his selfish inaction. For all he knew, they could have been captured by the nazgul – right after the Elves left or in a day or two – any time in fact on the long road to Rivendell.
We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours.

Frodo won't tell Gildor anything.
Not on his own – but then Gildor never asked him. If he did ask and Frodo refused to answer that would be another indication of the importance of the thing he carried. But I think with enough persuasion, Frodo would have told everything. Only Gildor didn’t want to know.

And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?
Well he thought he had no reasons to care, it seems. Then don’t get offended, Curufin, when we judge the guy accordingly. Off with him to Valinor…

[Gordis]

Personally, I doubt that it could completely stop fading - I don't believe that anything made by Elves could completely reverse the marring of Melkor - but perhaps it significantly slows it...

But the Elves have got competent help from Melkor's own pupil.;)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?

Because he's supposed to be one of the good guys. Good guys care about the plights of others, especially when those plights could mean the end of the world. Does Gildor have a selfish interest in helping the Hobbits? Nope. So the only reason he should help them would be unselfish, which he apparently isn't.

[Curufin]

I agree: Gildor didn’t know what was going to happen with the Hobbits “later on down the line�. He didn’t know they were going to get to Rivendell safely after all – regardless of his selfish inaction. For all he knew, they could have been captured by the nazgul – right after the Elves left or in a day or two – any time in fact on the long road to Rivendell.
We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours.

Alright, so why don't we judge everyone the Hobbits meet who is stronger than them as being 'selfish' if they don't help out? Let's see...Gandalf doesn't help them get to Rivendell. Selfish! None of the men in Bree help them get to Rivendell. Jerks! Tom Bombadil - who is far stronger than Gildor and knows exactly what Frodo has (and likely exactly what he is doing) doesn't help him get to Rivendell. What a selfish loser! :p

Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!

[Curufin]

Because he's supposed to be one of the good guys. Good guys care about the plights of others, especially when those plights could mean the end of the world. Does Gildor have a selfish interest in helping the Hobbits? Nope. So the only reason he should help them would be unselfish, which he apparently isn't.

Gildor also has leadership responsibilites for the other Elves he's leading. He can't just throw these aside to go lolly around Middle-earth with a bunch of hobbits.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I see nothing wrong with Gildor.

[CAB]

I agree: Gildor didn’t know what was going to happen with the Hobbits “later on down the line”. He didn’t know they were going to get to Rivendell safely after all – regardless of his selfish inaction. For all he knew, they could have been captured by the nazgul – right after the Elves left or in a day or two – any time in fact on the long road to Rivendell.
We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours.


Not on his own – but then Gildor never asked him. If he did ask and Frodo refused to answer that would be another indication of the importance of the thing he carried. But I think with enough persuasion, Frodo would have told everything. Only Gildor didn’t want to know.


Well he thought he had no reasons to care, it seems. Then don’t get offended, Curufin, when we judge the guy accordingly. Off with him to Valinor…
I agree with every point Gordis makes here. Gildor's apathy in spite of his lack of knowledge of the future is the problem. His not caring about the people he will leave behind when he goes to Valinor is the problem.

Alright, so why don't we judge everyone the Hobbits meet who is stronger than them as being 'selfish' if they don't help out? Let's see...Gandalf doesn't help them get to Rivendell. Selfish! None of the men in Bree help them get to Rivendell. Jerks! Tom Bombadil - who is far stronger than Gildor and knows exactly what Frodo has (and likely exactly what he is doing) doesn't help him get to Rivendell. What a selfish loser! :p

Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!
Come on now. If Gandalf was present, don't you think he would have done everything in his power to help. As for the Men in Bree, only one really understood Frodo's plight and was capable of giving competent aid and he is the main reason Frodo made it to Rivendell.

As for Bombadil, you have a point. If you want to say that Bombadil was selfish, you won't get an argument from me. Even so, Bombadil is something of an enigma and I'm not sure how much help he would have been outside of his own domain.

[Earniel]

However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress :p) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow.
Was it here? I think I missed that thread. Sounds like an interesting hypothesis, though...

Again your argument suits our side better than yours.
Depends. If we thought our argument would suit your side better, I doubt we'd be using it! :D

[Curufin]

I agree with every point Gordis makes here. Gildor's apathy in spite of his lack of knowledge of the future is the problem. His not caring about the people he will leave behind when he goes to Valinor is the problem.


Come on now. If Gandalf was present, don't you think he would have done everything in his power to help. As for the Men in Bree, only one really understood Frodo's plight and was capable of giving competent aid and he is the main reason Frodo made it to Rivendell.

As for Bombadil, you have a point. If you want to say that Bombadil was selfish, you won't get an argument from me. Even so, Bombadil is something of an enigma and I'm not sure how much help he would have been outside of his own domain.

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race.

My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.

[CAB]

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race.
The root problem is that Gildor doesn't think he has "a foot in this race". He should have had some care for all the thousands of people who were in danger of falling under Sauron. The fact that he doesn't give more aid is merely the result of this problem.
My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.
I would argue that no one (including the hobbits) acted out of pure altruism because pure altruism is a myth. It doesn't exist. But I don't suppose this is the place to discuss that, even if I was inclined to. Given your defense of Gildor, I thought you might agree with me on this point.

[Curufin]

The root problem is that Gildor doesn't think he has "a foot in this race". He should have had some care for all the thousands of people who were in danger of falling under Sauron. The fact that he doesn't give more aid is merely the result of this problem.

Why should he care?

I would argue that no one (including the hobbits) acted out of pure altruism because pure altruism is a myth. It doesn't exist. But I don't suppose this is the place to discuss that, even if I was inclined to. Given your defense of Gildor, I thought you might agree with me on this point.

I do agree with you on this point. My larger point is that everyone is acting out of self-interest, so accusing Gildor of doing so is a bit of a moot point. His self-interest is simply different than that of others.

[Gordis]

Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!
We don’t have threads about Bombadil being selfish, because he IS selfish – everyone agrees on it. He is a being of undetermined origin. He is funny. He is neither good nor bad. He takes no sides. The Wise would never trust him with the Ring, because he is unable to take anything seriously.

We are told he is the Master – within his territory. Yet, he allowed the Dunedain of Cardolan to be slaughtered on HIS territory. He allowed the wights to haunt the Barrows for 1,5 thousand years, though one song would have been enough to send them away. He let Old Man Willow be. He didn’t mind the Witch-King visiting the Barrow-wights for several days right before the arrival of the hobbits and enspelling all the evil things in Bombadil’s Old forest into awareness.

Yes, he helped the hobbits out, because he felt like it. Maybe he thought them cute, maybe just out of boredom. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he similarly helped a nazgul, in the unlikely event if the latter were caught by the Old Man Willow. :eek: It is not impossible that the WK even dropped by Tom to have a few drinks and to recall the old Cardolan wars…;)

Not so Gildor, an Elf of the House of Finarfin, who never served the Darkness. He is on the “good guys� side and acts for their benefit. Only he does so very little…:(

Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race. My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.
As CAB said, who hasn’t a foot in the race? Only Tom Bombadil. And he does help – twice. I believe you count the bearers of the Three as personally interested, so let us take the others.
Butterbur did help (while Harry the gatekeeper and Bill Ferny didn’t). Maggot did, despite being promised much gold by Khamul. Glorfindel and Aragorn did. Gimli did, and Legolas, and Boromir, and Faramir.

Gildor also has leadership responsibilites for the other Elves he's leading. He can't just throw these aside to go lolly around Middle-earth with a bunch of hobbits. He could have asked them if they were willing to risk their lives for the common cause and let the faint-hearted leave, as Aragorn later did.

Why should he care?
Now that is going in circles. This question has been answered at least twice.

Was it here? I think I missed that thread. Sounds like an interesting hypothesis, though...
No, it was on another forum, where the name of "Tuor" is known to everyone. *shudders* Right, Curu and DPR? :D
look what it is like: here (http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000326)
Sorry, I have no time to find the thread. Maybe later.
BTW, I will be offline for 5 days.

[Jon S.]

We don’t have threads about Bombadil being selfish, because he IS selfish – everyone agrees on it. He is a being of undetermined origin. He is funny. He is neither good nor bad. He takes no sides. The Wise would never trust him with the Ring, because he is unable to take anything seriously.

We are told he is the Master – within his territory. Yet, he allowed the Dunedain of Cardolan to be slaughtered on HIS territory. He allowed the wights to haunt the Barrows for 1,5 thousand years, though one song would have been enough to send them away. He let Old Man Willow be. He didn’t mind the Witch-King visiting the Barrow-wights for several days right before the arrival of the hobbits and enspelling all the evil things in Bombadil’s Old forest into awareness.

Yes, he helped the hobbits out, because he felt like it. Maybe he thought them cute, maybe just out of boredom. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he similarly helped a nazgul, in the unlikely event if the latter were caught by the Old Man Willow. :eek: It is not impossible that the WK even dropped by Tom to have a few drinks and to recall the old Cardolan wars…;)

Bombadil is an interesting case. Personally, I believe that true, full-blown pacifism (though Bombadil is described as a "natural pacifist, which may differ from the ideological type) is immoral because the moral response to evil is to forcefully oppose it, never to turn away or, even worse, turn the other cheek. Even those who profess to follow pacifist-founded philosophies or religions rarely act on those principles when it comes to their own lives or those of their loved ones because, inside, they know right from wrong. And I believe Tolkien himself knew this to be true:

[T]here are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron. (Letters 178-9)

[Gordis]

I agree.:)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I have my own feelings about Bombadil. I think his goofiness was based on the joy he possessed in knowing how everything turns out, and so knowing, feared not for the Hobbits. He knew what they would need and when, and that they'd be all right once they left him and the tests they would go through would serve them well.

<speculation>He didn't travel a half-day's pony ride in five seconds when Frodo started singing in the barrow...he was already on his way, riding Fatty Lumpkin.</speculation>

Of course, this is just "irrelevant fanfic". :p

[Gordis]

I have my own feelings about Bombadil. I think his goofiness was based on the joy he possessed in knowing how everything turns out, and so knowing, feared not for the Hobbits. He knew what they would need and when, and that they'd be all right once they left him and the tests they would go through would serve them well.

Maybe you are right about Tom and the hobbits. He may have known that they would be OK.
But: that doesn't explain his inaction during the war of 1409. It did turn ill for the Dunedain of Cardolan - very ill indeed.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Good point. Then again, maybe they were bad neighbors.

Plus, he did have his Goldberry to keep satisfied. A guy's gotta have priorities. (I admit I had a crush on Goldberry when I first read LotR.)

[Valandil]

:
:
But: that doesn't explain his inaction during the war of 1409. It did turn ill for the Dunedain of Cardolan - very ill indeed.

This is getting OT, but I disagree with this point. The Dunedain of Cardolan were able to take some shelter from the forces of Angmar and Rhudaur in the eaves of the Old Forest. I wonder if that would have been possible without TB's influence...???

I certainly don't understand why you think he did them a bad turn?

[ecthelion]

I would think from a more classical-romantic viewpoint:

First, both story internal and external, the hobbits needed to build up their characters and gain courage. They needed a gradual going into danger, as Gandalf said (go into danger, but not straight etc.). Gildor might have actually had this in mind.

Second, the elves were fading. some of them, although still in ME, were already half in the west. The going westward was not only physical, it was a process: not only when the elf boarded on the ship he was gone, already before that he began to fade. As is demonstrated in many parts of LOTR: "Already she appeared to him... present, and yet remote".
I think Gildor was already half in the west in his heart, and that he was not only half-interested in ME, but I think half powerless.

[Curufin]

I would think from a more classical-romantic viewpoint:

First, both story internal and external, the hobbits needed to build up their characters and gain courage. They needed a gradual going into danger, as Gandalf said (go into danger, but not straight etc.). Gildor might have actually had this in mind.

Well, I think that might be pushing it a bit. Gildor didn't know exactly what the Hobbits were going into, I don't think he could possibly have known this.

Second, the elves were fading. some of them, although still in ME, were already half in the west. The going westward was not only physical, it was a process: not only when the elf boarded on the ship he was gone, already before that he began to fade. As is demonstrated in many parts of LOTR: "Already she appeared to him... present, and yet remote".
I think Gildor was already half in the west in his heart, and that he was not only half-interested in ME, but I think half powerless.

I'm not sure he was 'half-powerless', although I doubt that one of the Eldar in the process of 'fading' would be quite as strong. But I think he was tired, maybe fading even has the same affect as bearing Fëanor had on MÃ*riel. I believe he could have been physically able to help the hobbits, but I'm not sure he could have been emotionally or mentally able.

[ecthelion]

Well, I think that might be pushing it a bit. Gildor didn't know exactly what the Hobbits were going into, I don't think he could possibly have known this.

He didn't know about this ring, or exactly where frodo was headed. But he perceived the danger, and helped frodo decide on the right course for himself.

[ecthelion]

We could vote on this you know. Decide democratically whether he was guilty of breaking "the good samaritan law" or not.
All in favor of Gildor say I (eye? ai? aie? aye?)
:D

[Gordis]

This is getting OT, but I disagree with this point. The Dunedain of Cardolan were able to take some shelter from the forces of Angmar and Rhudaur in the eaves of the Old Forest. I wonder if that would have been possible without TB's influence...???

I certainly don't understand why you think he did them a bad turn?

I didn't say Tom did them a bad turn - he simply didn't do them a "good turn" - because had he intervened, it would have been recorded.
Here is the quote:
A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain. The Tower of Amon Sûl was burned and razed; but the palantÃ*r was saved and carried back in retreat to Fornost, Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar, and the Dúnedain that remained there were slain or fled west. Cardolan was ravaged. Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from CÃ*rdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs. A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.
Most of the ravaged part of Cardolan (the territory around Barrow-Downs) is and was Tom's territory. Yet it seems evident, that the remnants of the Dunedain held out on their own and Men of Carn-Dum had full access to Tyrn Gorthad. Maybe (just maybe) Tom helped in making men-eating trees in the forest less agressive, but that seems to be all.
To me it seems that Tom simply took no sides in this war among Men. He felt sadness for the slain, but remained neutral.

And re: poll. Why are there no polls here? They are fun! Perhaps we could make a subforum for polls? (I would vote for the wannabe President who offers us polls;))

Anyway: I vote Gildor gilty.

[Curufin]

Gordis has returned! :D

Even if she is still picking on Gildor. Who I have now quoted in my siggy, just to annoy people. ;)

I, of course, vote Gildor not guilty. I just read that part again a few days ago, and I don't think Gildor was guilty of anything. He gave his advice, sent on a letter, and gave them food, drink, and lodging for the night. As I said before, that was no less than Tom did, and nobody says anything against him, although his power is likely equal (or greater) to that of Gildor.

[Gordis]

Gordis has returned! :D

Even if she is still picking on Gildor. Who I have now quoted in my siggy, just to annoy people. ;)


You can't annoy me - I have siggies turned off.:D:p

*Turns them on* *reads*
Well, that is about the only clever thing that Gildor had told them.:p;)
*Turns siggies off*

[Curufin]

You can turn siggies off? I didn't even know you could do that.

And that is, btw, one of my very favorite quotes from LOTR. PERIOD.

[Gordis]

Yes, in "user CP" in "options" you can uncheck "show signatures". I did it ages ago...

[Curufin]

Ah, but I like mine. ;)

Anyway, back on topic: Gildor is innocent.

[Gordis]

Anyway, back on topic: Gildor is innocent.
No way.:p

More votes?

[Curufin]

A Nazgúl saying an Elf is evil? Something is very wrong here. :eek:

I wish we did have polls, I'd like to see. ;)

[Olmer]

Anyway, back on topic: Gildor is innocent.


Of course he is innocent. He is insensitive, self-indulgent, calculating son of a...(whatever):evil:, but nevertheless he just couldn't provide an ecort to any lost in the wood hobbits.
First of it, he was smart enough not to meddle in the Game of Powerful, and if Gandalf himself saw fit to let the hobbits to travel alone, so let it be.
Second, he couldn't abandon his responsibilities as a coveyer of the funds and a protective convoy.

[Gordis]

Second, he couldn't abandon his responsibilities as a coveyer of the funds and a protective convoy.
What funds? :)

[Olmer]

What funds? :)

Did you ever ask yourself at what expense was provided a transportation to Aman for all wishing to leave?
The cost of building the ship, an investment which will never bring any return?
From where would be coming materials and labor, since with each departing ship the population of Grey Havens is getting less in numbers?
The expenses on provision of food and accomodation for the laborers and the arriving prospective immigrants?
Cirdan was not that rich, is he was building his own ship for a LO-ONG time.
Therefore comes a suggestion that each ship has been paid in advance.

Now, what a gang of not so frail Noldor-warriors is doing by shuttling between Imladris and Mithlond?
Just taking a sight-seeing tours? I don't think so. They have to have a purpouse, and a very important one.
Can you come up with something important for the Elves besides singing songs? I think it has something to do with the leaving of ME.

So, we are coming back to the ticket to ride.:) It was not cheap, and I think the fare was being paid at the "last homely home", a temporary lodging for refugees waiting untill their ship will be ready.
When the needed amount has been collected, Gildor & Co would provide a protective escort for the passengers of the ready to leave ship, bringing along a payment for the next ship's building, and a list of future passengers.

I think that such importance of his mission would definitely inhibit him of any improvised ventures.

Well... This is my thoughts on this subject.:)
So, can somebody come up with other explanation of Gildor's strange behavior?:D:evil:

[Curufin]

Now, what a gang of not so frail Noldor-warriors is doing by shuttling between Imladris and Mithlond?
Just taking a sight-seeing tours? I don't think so. They have to have a purpouse, and a very important one.
Can you come up with something important for the Elves besides singing songs? I think it has something to do with the leaving of ME.

Who says they're 'shuttling'? I was under the impression that they were just kind of hanging around, enjoying Middle-earth before they had to leave...

So, can somebody come up with other explanation of Gildor's strange behavior?:D:evil:

It's time for him to leave, but he isn't ready yet, at heart. :p

[Jon S.]

I see no reason why important Elves or humans, 3rd Age or our age, can't take sight-seeing tours and sing.

P.S. Good to hear from you again, Olmer!

[Curufin]

It was also the last time they would see Middle-earth. It makes sense to me that they're wanting to see everything again, savour it, and hold it in their hearts so that they can remember it later. That's all I think they were doing.

[Olmer]

Who says they're 'shuttling'? I was under the impression that they were just kind of hanging around, enjoying Middle-earth before they had to leave...

It's been said that they are occasionally travelling to Elostirion for the sole purpose of entertaining.
If it is a real reason, then his refusal to help hobbits has no pardon, and he is truly pitiless, egocentric, srew.:cool:
I see no reason why important Elves or humans, 3rd Age or our age, can't take sight-seeing tours and sing.
For 3000 years touring the same areas?
Give me a brake, Jon!!:):) Even by elvish standarts the scenery would grow quite boring.:rolleyes:
P.S. Good to hear from you again, Olmer!
Yeah, good to know that you, guys, are still here.:)
Too busy to participate in discussions, but will try my best to hang aroung.:)

[Gordis]

I see no reason why important Elves or humans, 3rd Age or our age, can't take sight-seeing tours and sing.

There was war going on, for Eru's sake! Dol Guldur army attacked the realm of Gildor's kingswoman Galadriel TRICE! And Gildor and his merry company of High Elves seemingly spent all this time hanging around Elostirion. When Bilbo was departing, they were still there at the very same spot and singing the very same song!:eek:

[Olmer]

When Bilbo was departing, they were still there at the very same spot ...
A prove that they were operating on some kind of schedule.:)

[Lefty Scaevola]

The strength of the Caliquendi's aura/glow depended on a few factors: emotianl arousal like when Fingolfin had his warface on and was rideing to Angband and was percieved by many to loke like a Maia or Vala; the native frea stregnth of the Elda and how he had enhanced it by his spiritual development; had long the Elda had been away from Aman with the fading also aplying to this aspect on the Noldor. Thus you see several aspect sto Glorfidnal and Fingolfin shinning through so brightly. I believe that they also have some ability to mange the apearance of the aura, at least through managing their emotional and meantal state, and I believe also directly to some extent.

[Jon S.]

There was war going on, for Eru's sake!
Leave Eru out of this!

I'm guessing you don't know many real-life soldiers, Gordis. Soldiers receive leave even during times of war. In addition, they shuttle in and out of active deployment.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

It was also the last time they would see Middle-earth. It makes sense to me that they're wanting to see everything again, savour it, and hold it in their hearts so that they can remember it later. That's all I think they were doing.

Do we know they were on their farewell tour of M.E.? I don't recall anything specific on that.

[Coffeehouse]

In the end, I don't think this point has been mentioned in the debate, we should not look at what Gildor and his company of elves thought they could do, or ought to have done, but at what Gandalf intended.

My reasoning why Gildor and the elves were right to give the hobbits shelter, food and some advice and not "transport" the hobbits all the way to Rivendell, was that Gandalf obviously had not intended them to do the latter.

If Gildor and the elves were meant to help, the wizard must surely contacted Rivendell, or any wandering elves in the Shire area, to ask of them to help the hobbits. But he didn't He meant to let Frodo & his companions to go it alone to Bree, without being assisted, mile by mile, along the way.
Gandalf had a purpose, and I would believe it was a blend of wanting the ring to remain obscure, "unimportant" in a way, along its journey to Rivendell. He also wanted hobbits to take it along as they seemed near-impossible to lure into using the ring actively. Thus safest way of keeping it inactive was with Frodo.
Yet Gandalf did not expect Frodo to go it alone. He knew there'd be elves in the area, he knew there'd be Tom Bombadil, he knew there'd be Strider, etc. And he put faith into the hobbits, because he obviously he knew what they were capable of pulling off through the separate journey of Bilbo during the "The Hobbit".

In the end therefore, Gildor should not be held to blame for not doing anything more. I think he did just what he needed to.

Gildor didn't know his circumstances. And Gildor wasn't 'regular folk.' He was a fading remnant of a waning people who saw very little connection left to Middle-earth, and had absolutely no interest in hobbits. [...] And that's how Gildor saw the Hobbits. It wasn't his place to interfere, nor was it something he really cared about. He helped them out as he could, and then moved on. To turn the question around, what on earth was in it for him to join in the quest?
And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

As for Gildor as the epitomy of all that is good about elves, I don't see it that way at all.
What you describe above may be understandable, but it's a very poor showing in qualities. There are no perfect people, but only perfect intentions, and that is something that stands as a general weakness among many of the glorified elves of Noldor.
The lack of interest by some elves in the doings of other creatures is perhaps something that cannot be considered evil, or wrong, but it's certainly not good. It's not respectable, and it breeds apathy. The elves have long lives, great love of nature, a good eye for beauty, but sometimes for all the wisdom they seem to possess they also display a troubling lack of insight into other creature's cultures, an ignorant understanding of the complexity of other races. There's nothing wrong about it, but it certainly isn't respectable either.
And if someone deserves to be called noble they need to show the willingness and wisdom to go that extra mile even if no one requires them to. For all their lifetime, elves have as much to learn about living by Men, as Men have to learn about elvish deeds.
But that's my take on it:rolleyes:

[Curufin]

As for Gildor as the epitomy of all that is good about elves, I don't see it that way at all.

I'm trying to find where I said that he was the epitome of all that is good about elves, and I sure as heck can't find it. ;) If you can quote that to me, perhaps?

What you describe above may be understandable, but it's a very poor showing in qualities. There are no perfect people, but only perfect intentions, and that is something that stands as a general weakness among many of the glorified elves of Noldor.

I've never said Gildor was perfect, either. Quite the opposite, in fact.

The lack of interest by some elves in the doings of other creatures is perhaps something that cannot be considered evil, or wrong, but it's certainly not good. It's not respectable, and it breeds apathy.

I wouldn't say it 'breeds' apathy, but that it is apathy. And apathy is a normal response for someone who's planning to leave a place. Why should they care what's happening there?

The elves have long lives, great love of nature, a good eye for beauty, but sometimes for all the wisdom they seem to possess they also display a troubling lack of insight into other creature's cultures, an ignorant understanding of the complexity of other races. There's nothing wrong about it, but it certainly isn't respectable either.

I disagree. There's a difference between being 'ignorant' and being 'apathetic.' Gildor and co. understand the hobbits just fine. They just don't care.

And if someone deserves to be called noble they need to show the willingness and wisdom to go that extra mile even if no one requires them to. For all their lifetime, elves have as much to learn about living by Men, as Men have to learn about elvish deeds. But that's my take on it

Not mine. ;) Everything of worth that the men know, they pretty much learned from elves.

[Coffeehouse]

I'm trying to find where I said that he was the epitome of all that is good about elves, and I sure as heck can't find it. ;) If you can quote that to me, perhaps?

Maybe you didn't look good enough;)
Here it is:
See, I was madly in love with him for a long time. :) I really like the guy. He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.
I assume the epitome of what an Elf should be is meant positively:rolleyes:



I've never said Gildor was perfect, either. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I didn't say you did;)


I wouldn't say it 'breeds' apathy, but that it is apathy. And apathy is a normal response for someone who's planning to leave a place. Why should they care what's happening there?
Let's not be picky. If it is apathy it also breeds more apathy.


I disagree. There's a difference between being 'ignorant' and being 'apathetic.' Gildor and co. understand the hobbits just fine. They just don't care.

That would be believable if Elves spent alot of times with hobbits. Which they don't.


Not mine. ;) Everything of worth that the men know, they pretty much learned from elves.
Like any civilization that learns from the previous one. But Men are not taught how to be Men. The passion with which Men live every day of their life is something they have not been taught. That passion is about as worthy as it gets. And we know that from personal experience don't we all! Cause your not an elf right Curufin... ;)

[Curufin]

He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.
I assume the epitome of what an Elf should be is meant positively

That's not what that means at all. ;)

The epitome of what an elf should be does NOT equal 'the epitome of all that is good' in an elf.

If I was going to say what the epitome of 'all that was good' in an elf was, I'd certainly choose Finrod, not Gildor.

[Coffeehouse]

That's not what that means at all. ;)

The epitome of what an elf should be does NOT equal 'the epitome of all that is good' in an elf.

If I was going to say what the epitome of 'all that was good' in an elf was, I'd certainly choose Finrod, not Gildor.

Right:rolleyes:

[Curufin]

No, I'm serious. Just because I said he was 'the epitome of what an Elf should be', that does not mean it equates to 'the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf.'

To use an analogy, I could say that a horrible, annoying teenager who gets drunk every night and fails all her classes is the 'epitome of what a college student should be', but that doesn't mean that's a good thing.

You're assuming that because I said he's the epitome of everything an elf should be, and because I like elves, that everything an elf should be should be good.

That isn't true.

I like elves because they aren't perfect. Because they're flawed. And in that sense, Gildor is the epitome of everything an elf should be - distant from humanity, self-absorbed, and different.

He's not the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf. And I've never argued that.

[Coffeehouse]

No, I'm serious. Just because I said he was 'the epitome of what an Elf should be', that does not mean it equates to 'the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf.'

To use an analogy, I could say that a horrible, annoying teenager who gets drunk every night and fails all her classes is the 'epitome of what a college student should be', but that doesn't mean that's a good thing.

You're assuming that because I said he's the epitome of everything an elf should be, and because I like elves, that everything an elf should be should be good.

That isn't true.

I like elves because they aren't perfect. Because they're flawed. And in that sense, Gildor is the epitome of everything an elf should be - distant from humanity, self-absorbed, and different.

He's not the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf. And I've never argued that.

Ah ok, well I didn't mean to put you on the defensive:p
It's just that you preceded the comment about the epitomical Gildor with loving feelings for the guy. My bad:rolleyes:

[Rían]

That idea of an "escort" service just busts me up! :D Sounds so mafia-esque ... ("Let me make youse an offer youse can't refuse..." ) :D

[Zilbanne]

Please take my edition to this thread with a light heart as it is intended. It isn't meant as a springboard for deep discussion...

Sometimes the elves in LotR in general seem like depressed people who were good at getting things done in the past but now, in the third age, are unable to do so. The passage of long life has become too burdensome maybe? Thank goodness they have faults. Otherwise their abilities and attributes just might seem too impossible.

[Alcuin]

I wonder if Frodo and his companions traveling with Gildor and the other Noldorian exiles might not have been more easily captured.

The Nazgûl, Khamûl, retreated from Gildor and the other Eldar when he was hunting Frodo, but he did not go far: the next morning, he was atop the Woody End trying to smell them out after they had descended through the undergrowth. In all likelihood, the Nazgûl could really see the Eldar, just as they could see Glorfindel and one another.

Traveling with Gildor might have been like putting up a flashing red light with a siren saying, “Here we are! Come get us!” While alone, Khamûl backed off when the Elves arrived; had the hobbits and Elves traveled together, he would surely have alerted the Witch-king, gathered his forces, and hunted them down.

It is worth considering whether Gildor and his companions could have resisted a determined attack by all Nine Nazgûl: they were outnumbered and unmounted; they had no obvious weapons and no armor; and the hobbits were very vulnerable targets.

As it was, Frodo and his friends were elusive: more like a cat-and-mouse game to the Ringwraiths, who chased them hither and yon, finding their trail and then losing it again. The Elves, I think, stood out like sore thumbs.

[Gordis]

It is worth considering whether Gildor and his companions could have resisted a determined attack by all Nine Nazgûl: they were outnumbered and unmounted; they had no obvious weapons and no armor; and the hobbits were very vulnerable targets.
But they were Calaquendi who had "great power both in the Seen and the Unseen". I don't think the battle between them and the Nazgul would be much like a battle of mortal men. It would be what Men call "magic" battle.

Glorfindel always made them retreat, despite the fact that he was alone. Why? Well, I guess NOT because he was a master-swordsman, but only because he was a resurrected Calaquende.

Consider Gandalf and the nazgul at the Weathertop. Would Gandalf be able to remain alive, if all the Nine were hacking at him with their swords and he was trying to parry with Glamdring? I say no: it is simply impossible to win a real-word swordfight one against nine.
Instead, there was the magick contest of lightnings and flames as the Power of the nine nazgul and a lone Maia was almost even.

So would Gildor and Co even need ordinary weapons and chainmail? And if they do, why not ask old Tom to provide some? They could have reached the B. Downs before the nazgul could gather and attack.

No, I believe the Elves could have taken Frodo safely to Rivendell even if attacked along the way.

In all likelihood, the Nazgûl could really see the Eldar, just as they could see Glorfindel and one another. ... Traveling with Gildor might have been like putting up a flashing red light with a siren saying, “Here we are! Come get us!�
Here you are no doubt right. And I think it is indeed part of the answer why the Elves didn't come with Frodo. They didn't want the nazgul to trace the Ring to Rivendell. If Sauron were informed that Elrond had got the One, Rivendell would be in grave danger. Likely Gildor wanted to avoid it, hoping that the nazgul would simply loose the trail of the hobbits in the wilderness.

[Zilbanne]

Traveling with Gildor might have been like putting up a flashing red light with a siren saying, “Here we are! Come get us!� While alone, Khamûl backed off when the Elves arrived; had the hobbits and Elves traveled together, he would surely have alerted the Witch-king, gathered his forces, and hunted them down.



As it was, Frodo and his friends were elusive: more like a cat-and-mouse game to the Ringwraiths, who chased them hither and yon, finding their trail and then losing it again. The Elves, I think, stood out like sore thumbs.

I wonder if the elvish nature of the elves, the elvishness itself, was easier to spot by the nazgul than natural hobbit movement? Was hobbit movement less detectable in general than that of elves? Or was it simply because a larger group was easier to track?

[Coffeehouse]

I can't remember where I read it but Tolkien wrote someplace in his works that a Hobbit could remain almost entirely unseen because they thread so lightly and are so quick at feet.

Definitely, the Hobbits did have some advantages, knowing the terrain (at least until the Old Forest) and their (remarkably) stealthy way of going about was something Gandalf knew about before he sent them off. Still can't quite shake off the thought of Gildor being right in just letting them wander off into the wild with Nazgul on their heels. Seems reckless:evil:

[Zilbanne]

It does seem reckless of Gildor to just let them go off like that. It seems the elves could have at least escorted the hobbits to Bree in hopes of meeting up with Gandalf or Aragorn.

[Coffeehouse]

I wonder if Tolkien made it out the way it was for some thought-provoking reason.. That guy was an enigma and it seems he usually has an intention behind his storyline. The most likely reason that I could think of was the 'fading away' of Gildor and his elves in that they really were semi-detached from Middle Earth and felt it better to let the Hobbits deal with it (to strengthen them etc).

[Zilbanne]

I wonder if Tolkien made it out the way it was for some thought-provoking reason.. That guy was an enigma and it seems he usually has an intention behind his storyline. The most likely reason that I could think of was the 'fading away' of Gildor and his elves in that they really were semi-detached from Middle Earth and felt it better to let the Hobbits deal with it (to strengthen them etc).

Yep!
I think you are right. Fading and Tolkien's concept of it probably explains Gildor's actions. Tolkien was an orphan. He had to deal with fading parental influence as he grew.

[Coffeehouse]

Yep!
I think you are right. Fading and Tolkien's concept of it probably explains Gildor's actions. Tolkien was an orphan. He had to deal with fading parental influence as he grew.

Ooo, educated guess!;) Hadn't thought of that before.

[Zilbanne]

Ooo, educated guess!;) Hadn't thought of that before.

Well this is off topic but so many of Tolkien's characters must deal with the loss of loved ones.