How old is Legolas?

[Gordis]

[EDIT: This thread has been split of from the thread What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=14279) - Eärniel]

Not in the book. He was youthful...before JRR decided that he'd rewrite all the elves as dull.
We know for certain that Legolas was at least 500 years old.
One can be "youthful"... and one can be "retarded":p

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

We know for certain that Legolas was at least 500 years old. Oh, we do? What page is that on?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

In the chapter: The King of the Golden Hall, Legolas says:
'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'

He also says in the chapter: The Road to Isengard:
'These are the strangest trees that ever I saw,' he said; 'and I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age. I wish that there were leisure now to walk among them: they have voices, and in time I might come to understand their thought.'

His exact age is unknown, but he is clearly several centuries old at a minimum. This isn't extra material from the oft-scorned History of Middle Earth or some vague un-mailed note from Letters. It's from The Lord of the Rings itself.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

In the chapter: The King of the Golden Hall, Legolas says:


He also says in the chapter: The Road to Isengard:


His exact age is unknown, but he is clearly several centuries old at a minimum. This isn't extra material from the oft-scorned History of Middle Earth or some vague un-mailed note from Letters. It's from The Lord of the Rings itself.I would say that both these quotes tell against your theory. Legolas does not speak the language of the Rohirrim...he doesn't even recognise it. He might as easily say "but a little while does it seem to me " but he says "us", a direct response to the statement Aragorn makes above, "Many long lives of men is it since the golden hall was built." Elves are longer lived than men. Well, true enough. The only other 'us" than "us elves" is "you and me, Aragorn", and that's not what he's saying.

He likewise can't hear the language of the wood, although he figured he might learn it, and he's a woodland elf, not one of Cirdan's crew. He's old, certainly older than the other members of the fellowship (save Gandalf), but 500 years...I doubt it. What would he have been doing for 500 years, that he wouldn't even have the notion of "the Glittering Caves of Aglarond", can't remember there are such a thing as Ents, and knows no languages? World of Warcraft? I mean, if I had a friend in Arizona who came to me babbling about a really BIG hole in the ground, I might guess the Grand Canyon, wouldn't you? ;)

Additionally, your theory means that the Fellowship, the critical part of rescuing the entire world, which took off from Rivendel under the personal supervision of Elrond and Gandalf, chose ONE representative of elf-kind, Thurandil's kinda dim boy, Ol' Leggy.

Jeepers. With friends like this, who needs Sauron? :D

Nope. He's just on the young side, for an elf. At the time this was written, you didn't need kryptonite to kill them, that came later. ;)

[Earniel]

But Sis, you didn't have internet, TV or telephone in Middle-earth. You can't expect inhabitants to know what's out there beyond the edge of their land. Especially not Elves who probably never left their forest if they didn't need to and barely had interest in the short lives of men. And I considerably doubt the Rohirrim flaunted any knowledge about caves they used as refuge.

[Curufin]

My personal opinion on the matter is that Legolas is a 'war baby' - born not long after Thranduil returned from the Battle of the Last Alliance and took up the Kingship of Greenwood...but that's just speculation.

For the record, I agree with everything DPR and Eärniel said.

Sis, how old do you think he is?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I would say that both these quotes tell against your theory.
Only if you twist them a whole lot.

I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.
Tell us how a young person could have achieved this.

So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children.
And how could a young person call a 139 year old Dwarf and an 87 year old man children without them taking offense or even making any comment whatsoever?

Because he's not young. He's very old. Young, perhaps, in Elf terms, but old nevertheless.

As for choosing him for the Fellowship, he seems to have been quite qualified for the mission. He was meant for it.

[Jon S.]

I think that everyone's right. Legolas is old when measured in human years but young in Elven terms. The latter, it seems to me, may help explain his relative ignorance - he just wasn't in a rush to complete junior high, so to speak. We humans cram so much learning and experiencing into such a short time frame precisely because we suffer from what Kierkegaard deemed the sickness unto death. Elves didn't have the Grim Reaper looking over their shoulders so it would not surprise me that some would choose to spend decades watching acorns grow into oaks without hurrying to learn languages and geography and the like.

Though on the other hand, kings' sons were always, in human cultures at least, given proper educations. Perhaps it was different for Elven princes.

P.S. This gives me hope, contemplating now how even the might oak trees were once just little nuts like us. ;)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

But Sis, you didn't have internet, TV or telephone in Middle-earth. You can't expect inhabitants to know what's out there beyond the edge of their land. Especially not Elves who probably never left their forest if they didn't need to and barely had interest in the short lives of men. And I considerably doubt the Rohirrim flaunted any knowledge about caves they used as refuge. The caves had a famous name, that's from Gandalf. And Legolas wasn't some random woodelf, he was the King's son. Eldarin, according to Tolkien. They had an active trade with men and dwarves. Mirkwood was in the first line against the Necromancer...does it make any sense to you the King's son isn't getting the best education he can? He just doesn't have the life experience to put it all together. He's young.

My personal opinion on the matter is that Legolas is a 'war baby' - born not long after Thranduil returned from the Battle of the Last Alliance and took up the Kingship of Greenwood...but that's just speculation.

For the record, I agree with everything DPR and Eärniel said.

Sis, how old do you think he is?Older than anyone in the Fellowship except Gandalf, but not old in elf terms. 200, maybe 300, or thereabouts.

Only if you twist them a whole lot.


Tell us how a young person could have achieved this.


And how could a young person call a 139 year old Dwarf and an 87 year old man children without them taking offense or even making any comment whatsoever? When I travel with people even 10 years younger, sometimes I feel old. But people who are sure of themselves (like Aragorn) don't bother to correct their elders on stuff like that. He was raised with elves...he knows how they are. :D

Because he's not young. He's very old. Young, perhaps, in Elf terms, but old nevertheless. THAT is the point I'm making. It's related to Bilbo and his poetry in Rivendell. "To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different. Or to shepherds." Eleves are notoriously self-centered, that would have come as no surprise.

As for choosing him for the Fellowship, he seems to have been quite qualified for the mission. He was meant for it.Yes, I agree. He was meant for it. So, why? Because he was well-educated, but from a less snippy branch of the elves, and one of the few elves young enough to actually enjoy and grow from the experience. He and Gimli were from the same generation, if there was any hope that representatives of these races would get along, it had to be young ones. The old ones were too sunk in their prejudice. He was the prince. He's not one of Elrond's crew, although they had plenty of them to choose from. He's the new hope.

[Curufin]

Elves didn't have the Grim Reaper looking over their shoulders

Well...just to be a canon nazi...

'Thus far, I perceive that the great difference between Elves and Men is the speed of the end. In this only. For if you deem that for the Quendi there is no death ineluctable, you err...But the end will come. That we know. And then we must die; we must perish utterly, it seems, for we belong in Arda (in hröa and fëa). And beyond that what?...Our hunter is slow footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.' ~Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

:p

But as for the content of your post, I agree completely. :)

[Curufin]

Sis

Older than anyone in the Fellowship except Gandalf, but not old in elf terms. 200, maybe 300, or thereabouts.

Ok, but how do you square that with (and I won't quote from HoME or anything just for you, but from LotR ;))

I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.

Oak trees live on average between 200-400 years (http://www.answers.com/topic/oak), and can live as long as 800.

Personally, I think Legolas is young for an Elf too - I put him at somewhere around 2500-3000 Y.S.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Oak trees live on average between 200-400 years (http://www.answers.com/topic/oak), and can live as long as 800. I plant 50 trees, as a scout project. They grow to ruinous old age. I have seen 50 trees grow to ruinous old age.

The man lived in the forest. You don't suppose he saw trees one at a time, do you? :D

Personally, I think Legolas is young for an Elf too - I put him at somewhere around 2500-3000 Y.S.
But internal to that text, Elrond doesn't have to be much over 3050. :eek:;)

[Jon S.]

Legolas was certainly chosen for both political and skill-based reasons. And if I may be so bold, having a level personality is as much a skill-based attribute as any other attribute.

Any other Beatles fans here? I respect Ringo's drumming skills quite highly but the fact is his biggest contribution to the Beatles' success may well have been his level, playful personality which was the perfect foil to John's gloominess, Paul's controlling, and George's introvertedness.

I believe that not only did Legolas's personality play a similar role with the 9, he was selected in part specifically for that reason. So the next time someone - even the Professor himself - opines that of 9, Legolas achieved the least, nod your head if you will but think of Ringo.

Last night, on a whim, I went back and re-watched the first of the two TTT EE discs. Very interesting, how Aragorn responded to Eomer:

"I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn. This is Gimli, son of Gloin, and Legolas of the Woodland Realm."

Why that, not the seemingly appropriate parallel structure of "Legolas, son of Thranduil?"

[Curufin]

But internal to that text, Elrond doesn't have to be much over 3050

*hiss*

*spit*

*tries really hard*

*can't do it*

Elrond, the son of Elwing and Eärendil, was born in F.A. 525, making him approximately 6523 years (Y.S.) old at the end of the T.A.

[Curufin]

Oh, and Sis, staying with LotR only, how can Elrond only be 3050 or so when his twin brother died in S.A. 442? And that's in the Appendix. ;)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Oh, and Sis, staying with LotR only, how can Elrond only be 3050 or so when his twin brother died in S.A. 442? And that's in the Appendix. ;)Ooh, point scored! Nicely done, Curu. :)

I stand corrected. :) You've got me up to...4850 :P

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Elvezzz have time masheenz!

[Curufin]

Personally, I like Gordis's idea that taking Leggy was a political agreement with Thranduil...after all, he did allow them to torture Gollum in his woods...hmm...the M-E equivalent of rendition flights? :D

[Jon S.]

What if taking "Leggy" (nice - I like that :D ) was actually to punish Thranduil for being such a lousy jailer? (And let's face it, he did suck at it. First he lets Bilbo and the Dwarves high-tail it ... next it's Gollum! :p )

[Gordis]

Ohh, sisterandcousinandaunt, first you claim that Frodo was 20 at the Long-Expected party, then that Legolas was 200-300, now that Elrond was 3050... What next?:eek:
There are facts, you know, that you can't ignore. Nice tries to wriggle out, but nor convincing at all. No way, preciouss…:p

Legolas: I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.
The oaks may live on average between 200-400 years, but some trees are far older. Here is the list of some of them:

Granit oak, an oak in Granit village near Stara Zagora in Bulgaria; one of the oldest trees in Europe, estimated to be about 1,650 years old.
Bartek, an oak growing in Zagnańsk in Swietokrzyskie Mountains; the most famous tree in Poland, said to be about 1,200 years old, but after research more accurately about 650 years.
The Queen Elizabeth Oak in the grounds of the Royal Palace of Hatfield in Hertfordshire is said to be the location where Elizabeth I of England was told she was queen in 1558.
Kongeegen (the King Oak), an ancient Pedunculate oak in Jægerspris Nordskov, Sjælland, Denmark; estimated to be over 1,200 years old, the oldest tree in Denmark.
Major Oak, an ancient Pedunculate oak in Sherwood Forest, Nottinghamshire, England, the most famous and most visited tree of Great Britain. About 800 years old.
Ivenack Oak, a huge and ancient Pedunculate oak in Ivenack, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Germany, thought to be about 800 years old. The largest oak in Germany and (in wood volume) probably in Europe.
Stelmužė Oak, a Pedunculate oak in Stelmužė, Zarasai district, Lithuania; it is thought to be around 1,500 years old. The oldest tree in Lithuania and the Baltic States.

I think Curufin is right, most likely Legolas was born after the War of the Last Alliance, after Orofer died in battle and Thranduil withdrew to the north of the forest. But I doubt he was born after the Shadow of Mirkwood has become a real threat. Elves don’t reproduce in troubled times. Thus Legolas’s age would be between 3000 and 2000 years.

He is not poorly educated: he is a member of a secluded community. Most likely he is not the only son of Thranduil, and not his heir - that's why he was sent as messenger to Rivendell and proceeded further on a dangerous mission.
I think it was Thranduil who insisted on his inclusion into the Fellowship (or in everything the Wise planned to do with the Ring). Legolas was an observer appointed by Rivendell’s allies.
Look at it from Thranduil's POV. First Aragorn brought Gollum to his realm. Then Gandalf came and questioned Gollum. Then they left Gollum to Thranduil and asked to guard him. Meanwhile a nazgul came (trice) to Erebor asking for the ring, a little trinket worth the three Dwarven Rings + the realm of Moria - you do the math. Then orcs attacked and freed Gollum. Thranduil had all reasons to suspect that something dangerous was taking place: the Wise concoting something. He didn't want to be left out AGAIN.

[Gordis]

What if taking "Leggy" (nice - I like that :D ) was actually to punish Thranduil for being such a lousy jailer? (And let's face it, he did suck at it. First he lets Bilbo and the Dwarves high-tail it ... next it's Gollum! :p )

And why would Thranduil be happy to serve as jailor for the Wise? They never invited him to their Councils. They didn't give him a ring (which by the end of TA he needed much more than say Elrond, or Cirdan, or Gandalf). The Wise used him, keeping him in the dark, much like they used Gondor. And now they were meddling with the One Ring, and Sauron threatened Thranduil, not them!

[Curufin]

Thumbs up to everything you said, Gordis! I agree completely.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I honestly think the biggest reason (though there were many) Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir were "chosen" for the quest was because they were all going in that direction anyway on their way home. Elrond even told them all (paraphrasing): "stay with the Ringbearer only as long as you want to, and each of you say "Hi" to your dads for me when you get home."

Seriously, this is a secret mission. No way were all nine ever intended to go marching through Mordor. Splitting up was inevitable (for more reasons than just Eru wanted it that way).

[Curufin]

I think Gordis has a good point why Legolas stays for the council, though. Thranduil wants to know more, and he's got to be getting pretty insistent about it by this point.

[Jon S.]

I admire your reasoning and creativity, Gordis, I would caution that we keep in mind the amount of assuming/speculating you're incorporating into it. Even Tolkien said, when asked what he would do differently in the book were he to write it over again, "make it longer." The absence of a description of X does not establish that X did not occur. Thranduil was, at best, a marginal LOTR character. For all we know, he had several long chats with Gandalf, Aragorn, and/or Elrond (he certainly had opportunities to do so) and was privy to the full scoop.

[Gordis]

I think Gimli was appointed for the same reason - as an observer for the Dwarves. Dain was worried no less than Thranduil was. When he learned about the Quest, Gloin sent his son.

DPR, please, look at the map. Erebor and Northern Mirkwood are both north-east of Rivendell. The shortest way to Thranduil's realm and to Erebor lies east over the High Pass, not south! Gloin returned home this way and Gimli could have followed his dad.

Gimli made it clear to Elrond that he wanted to stick to the Fellowship, and was not going home.
`Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens,' said Gimli.
'Maybe,' said Elrond, `but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall.'
'Yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart,' said Gimli.
Very probably the Dwarves also objected to more than one Elf in the Fellowship: that's why Elrond didn't send anyone from his household. Legolas and Gimli mistrusted each other, and kept an eye on the Men and the wisard. Only hobbits they deemed harmless enough. They would have stuck to the Fellowship to the very end.

Only Boromir was going home, bringing what he was sent for - "the sword that was broken". Unfortunately, the famous weapon had a bearer - a wannabe king "last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity":p

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

You have to remember, Jon, that she's in character and is going to sell the Nazgul side of things wherever possible, just as Curufin will sell the Elven side. They wouldn't be the Ulairi Gordis or Curufin we know and love otherwise.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I said it wasn't the only reason, Gordis, and I'm well aware of the layout of Middle Earth.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

There are facts, you know, that you can't ignore. There are no facts, Gordis. There's a story.

Elves don’t reproduce in troubled times. Ah. That would be from Appendix Q, "Impediments to reproduction among the other races" :D

The Lord of The Rings has been read by many people since it finally appeared in print 10 years ago; and I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

...As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. JRR Tolkien

[Gordis]

For all we know, he had several long chats with Gandalf, Aragorn, and/or Elrond (he certainly had opportunities to do so) and was privy to the full scoop.
Er... no, IMO, he wasn't:
`Alas! alas!' cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. `The tidings that I was sent to bring must now be told. They are not good, but only here have I learned how evil they may seem to this company. Sméagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped.'
'We guarded this creature day and night, at Gandalf's bidding, much though we wearied of the task. But Gandalf bade us hope still for his cure, and we had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth, where he would fall back into his old black thoughts.'
Gandalf never told them the real reason why it was important to guard Gollum :because of what he knew about the One. Thus Thranduil didn't expect the orcs' attack. They kept the Mirkwood King in the dark. Not nice, precious, not nice at all.:(

[Curufin]

ust as Curufin will sell the Elven side

To an extent. ;) You won't see me defending the Sindar.

*grumbles* darn Sindar buffoons who banned our language from Middle-earth AND stole a Silmaril *grumbles*

[Jon S.]

Er... no, IMO, he wasn't:

Gandalf never told them the real reason why it was important to guard Gollum :because of what he knew about the One. Thus Thranduil didn't expect the orcs' attack. They kept the Mirkwood King in the dark. Not nice, precious, not nice at all.:(
Respectfully, Gordis, now, you're assuming that what Thranduil knew, Legolas knew: "... only here have *** I *** learned how evil they may seem to this company.

============

I don't know how whether the old-timers here dig Martinez or not but I do and I enjoyed his discussion of Legolas:

"ooo

The character of Legolas is not so much compelling as confounding. I think many people wonder about him because he seems such a paradox, both old and young, both wise and yet inexplicably ignorant of the wide world around him. Legolas is a subtle stroke of Elvish youth at the end of the Elder Days. It may be there were few young Elves around at the time, and his may have been the last great adventure for a young Elf in Middle-earth. When Celeborn finally sailed over Sea, Tolkien notes, the last living memory of the Elder Days went with him. But when Legolas built his ship and departed, it may be that the last sparkle of youthful Elfdom vanished from Middle-earth, too."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/790682/posts?page=1

[Gordis]

There are no facts, Gordis. There's a story.
And in the story there are facts. If an entry in the Tale of Years tells us that the Plague happened in TA 1636, it is useless to try to persuade us that it happened in TA 1925.

Ah. That would be from Appendix Q, "Impediments to reproduction among the other races" :D
Nah. That would be from "Laws and Customs of the Eldar." Ever heard about it?

The Lord of The Rings has been read by many people since it finally appeared in print 10 years ago; and I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

...As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. JRR Tolkien
We are not discussing the "message" of the story. It is an entirely different topic. We are discussing the plot. Facts, and their meaning.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

For your benefit, Gordis, I'll repeat that I'm in the nature of a strict constructionist, here.

I don't recognise any canonical authority other than the 4 first books.

Your 'facts", therefore, are not admissible. :D

[Jon S.]

And I say facts based on non-canonical authorities are admissible; the nature of the authorities from they are derived go rather to the weight they may be accorded. ;)

[Curufin]

Despite your thoughts on whether it should count as 'canon' or not, Sis, Laws and Customs is a really interesting essay. As is The Shibboleth of Fëanor and in particular Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

Tolkien meant for all of it to go together, from the beginning of the Silmarillion (perhaps not exactly the one that CT published, but close) to the end of LotR. And yes, I can quote Tolkien on that:

As for The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, they are where they were. The one finished (and the end revised), and the other still unfinished (or unrevised), and both gathering dust. I have been both off and on too unwell, and too burdened to do much about them, and too downhearted. Watching paper-shortages and costs mounting against me. But I have rather modified my views. Better something than nothing! Although to me all are one, and the 'Lord of the Rings' would be better far (and eased) as part of the whole, I would gladly consider the publication of any part of this stuff. Years are becoming precious...
--1952, Letter to Rayner Unwin

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

And I say facts based on non-canonical authorities are admissible; the nature of the authorities from they are derived go rather to the weight they may be accorded. ;)
You may admit them to your discussion, however, I won't consider them. :)

(Do you see, Curu, why no one really needs me up here? ;) )

[Curufin]

As I said before, Sis, I disagree with you strongly, but there's not a lot of discussion if everyone agrees. ;)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Despite your thoughts on whether it should count as 'canon' or not, Sis, Laws and Customs is a really interesting essay. As is The Shibboleth of Fëanor and in particular Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

Tolkien meant for all of it to go together, from the beginning of the Silmarillion (perhaps not exactly the one that CT published, but close) to the end of LotR. And yes, I can quote Tolkien on that:


--1952, Letter to Rayner UnwinI've found most of this material intermittently interesting. I read the Sil for the first time...about the year you were born. And we had to actually go to bookstores and part with our babysitting money to buy books, in those days. However, that doesn't weigh with me in as far as evaluating the success (or otherwise) of JP's rendering of the 3 books into a movie, which IS the topic of this thread.

I have no intention of holding him accountable for every scrap of lunch list Chris was able to scrape up or create.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

As I said before, Sis, I disagree with you strongly, but there's not a lot of discussion if everyone agrees. ;)
Yeah, but this isn't fun, for me. I'm here because I like you, but hierophants really get under my skin, whatever their topic. :(

[Curufin]

And we had to actually go to bookstores and part with our babysitting money to buy books, in those days.

:rolleyes: And I have every single text that Tolkien wrote (and the ones CT edited) in book format bought with real money as well. :p

I'm not sure how we did get so far off topic - I wouldn't want everything put in the movies either, but PJ could have at least tried to stay close to the book in the things he did include.

[Curufin]

Is being a hierophant really bad?

It's those things that attracted me to Tolkien's works - the depth and the idea of deciphering and understanding.

Ah well, to each their own.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

darn Sindar buffoons who banned our language from Middle-earth AND stole a Silmaril

I think you're kidding but somehow I'm not really sure. :confused:

[Curufin]

Nope, not kidding.

That's serious stuff.

not kidding, actually. Can't stand the Sindar. Moriquendi buffoons who think they can order the Noldor around...ok, so Thingol's Caliquendi, but that's a technicality...

[Gordis]

I don't recognise any canonical authority other than the 4 first books.
Do you mean three tomes of LOTR and the Silm?
I have to remind you that the age of Frodo and the quotes implying the age of Legolas and Elrond ARE in LOTR, the date of the Plague is in LOTR, and not it the HOME that you despise so much.

Actually, it bugs me that you are so disrespectful to Chris. The man has done all that a good son and a careful editor should do... HOME is an excellent work, leaving absolutely no doubts which are JRR's quotes and which are Chris's comments. It is a problem with guys like M. Martinez, but not with Christopher Tolkien.

I said it wasn't the only reason, Gordis, and I'm well aware of the layout of Middle Earth.
I know you are, that's why I was so surprised when you said they were going south anyway...

.Respectfully, Gordis, now, you're assuming that what Thranduil knew, Legolas knew: "... only here have *** I *** learned how evil they may seem to this company.
Yes, I agree, likely Thranduil himself had already figured it out how dangerous all this matter of Gollum must have been: so he sent his own son as messenger. But clearly Thranduil didn't understand it before, wasn't prepared for the attack from Dol Guldur - otherwise he wouldn't let Gollum outside his caves guarded by a few elves - and all this at night!

I don't know how whether the old-timers here dig Martinez or not but I do and I enjoyed his discussion of Legolas:
I have read a lot of Martinez - but I can't say I am his fan. He mixes his own fanfiction with canon and it is hard to tell one from the other. As for Legolas...maybe he feels young (sometimes) because he was one of the youngest elves of Mirkwood. Maybe he was Thranduil's youngest son.

We are not told how many children Thranduil had.
But look here: Miriel birthed one son and died of exhaustion. But the son was Feanor himself. Nerdanel birthed seven sons (we all know them) and remained OK. I would say Thranduil's wife could have birthed 20-25 sons like Legolas and stayed OK.:p Just kidding...

[Curufin]

But look here: MÃ*riel birthed one son and died of exhaustion. But the son was Fëanáro himself. Nerdanel birthed seven sons (we all know them) and remained OK. I would say Thranduil's wife could have birthed 20-25 sons like Legolas and stayed OK. Just kidding...

Tsk, tsk, accents, Gordis! Just defending my Quenya, you know. :rolleyes:;)

As for the content - :D If Nerdanel could handle seven of me, then yeah, thirty or forty Legolasi (is that the right plural? lol) would be no problem at all.

And yeah, Legolas never even insinuates that he's the oldest son. Thranduil probably sent one who had nothing better to do and was wasting all his time chatting up the Mirkwood babes. Keep him out of trouble. ;):D

[Jon S.]

hierophants
Are those related to oliphaunts? (Seriously, though most days I pride myself on my vocabulary but this one I'll be looking up. :) )

[Curufin]

Do you mean three tomes of LOTR and the Silm?

I think she means LotR and the Hobbit...

[Jon S.]

We are not told how many children Thranduil had.
But look here: Miriel birthed one son and died of exhaustion. But the son was Feanor himself. Nerdanel birthed seven sons (we all know them) and remained OK. I would say Thranduil's wife could have birthed 20-25 sons like Legolas and stayed OK.:p Just kidding...
Do we even know who his wife was? (I hate that when the women get such short thrift.)

[Curufin]

Do we even know who his wife was?

No.

But I did a good RP about this once. ;)

[Gordis]

Did you birth 40 Legolasi?:eek:

[Curufin]

No! :D

But I did have more than one son...

[Curufin]

Just thought I'd add a salient quote that I found today in reading through Myths Transformed:

On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in löar upon löar under the wheeling Sun.

While this does not specifically mention Legolas, the fact that it says that it takes 3000 Earth Years for an 'elf-child' to grow to 'be a a man or a woman', says to me that Legolas must have been at least that old, since, while he certainly wasn't old in the way of the Eldar, he wasn't a child either - he was matured into an adult. This puts his birth at the earliest around T.A. 19, which makes sense if Thranduil married soon after the war and had children.

[GrayMouser]

According to my rough calculations, that would amount to about 300 years of changing diapers- no wonder Elves didn't have many children.

[Earniel]

Never mind the diapers, think of the lenght of puberty. :eek:

[Gordis]

Here is a very interesting article about Legolas, estimating his age at about 700 and arguing that his mom was a Green-elf, not a Sinda.

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html

[Jon S.]

Thank you for that most excellent article.

Please do not deem me amiss if I highlight this particular sentence which brought a smile to my face:

As M. Martinez points out in his excellent "Speaking of Legolas" article, no other Elves we've met would play such a game, and Legolas' sudden impulse to ride into the Huorn-forest to get a closer look at the strange trees (The Road to Isengard, TTT) is typical of his innocent curiosity.

[feawen]

im sure someones already said this and you've probably stopped talking about it but im sure i read about a legolas in the sillmarillion. What tolkien make up two different legolas's just for the fun of confusing people? i think his at least over 1000 if not more.

[Gordis]

I don't think there is Legolas in the Silm.
But there is one in the Book of Lost Tales 2.

Here is the quote from the article by Ellen Brundige I linked to above:
In Book of Lost Tales 2, there are several references to one "Legolas Greenleaf of the House of the Tree" who served as guide for the refugees of Gondolin. There are two obvious reasons why this can't be the son of Thranduil. First, as noted above, Tolkien decided "Legolas" was a Silvanized spelling of a Sindarin name, and that makes no sense for a resident of Gondolin, whose Elves were Noldor. Second, in FOTR, Legolas tells the Fellowship that the elves of Eregion are a race that is strange to him. Those elves were Noldor, many of them refugees from Gondolin. Christopher Tolkien therefore identifies "Legolas Greenleaf of the House of the Tree" and "Legolas Greenleaf son of Thranduil" as two different people. Legolas of Gondolin only appears in Tolkien's very early writings, long before he began to write LOTR, when he was still calling Noldor "Gnomes". Tolkien's story, characters, and world evolved and changed significantly after that. Legolas' name is one of a great many that appear in Tolkien's early writings and are later reused and given to someone entirely different.

John S., there is a link to Martines's article, so I have read it as well. I like Ellen Brundige's much more. She does use quotes correctly - unlike Martinez.

But both articles are rather convincing. I think now that Legolas may indeed have been the "Watchful Peace" baby, born between SA 2063 and 2460.
Likely he was far from being the only son of Thranduil, or his heir. It looks like he was the last child in the family, all his siblings born before 1100.

[Earniel]

Feawen, perhaps you're confusing with Glorfindel? There's one in LoTR and in the Silmarillion.

[Curufin]

And they are the same one. ;)

[feawen]

i know i saw his name in one of the old book maybe it was one of the book of lost tales, though ive not finished 2 yet i was sure it was a passing sentence in the sil oh knows! but i know it was legolas!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Glorfindel was indeed the same guy in both. Legolas was not. Neither were Denethor or Boromir.

[Jon S.]

We had two President Roosevelts so I see no reason why ME couldn't have had two Legolases (or is that Legolasi?).

[Gordis]

Because eventually all the Legolasi will be stuck in Valinor - either alive or re-embodied. Same reason the elves don't remarry: they would be stuck with a whole range of spouses for all eternity.:eek:
When a Man dies - he dies for good, there won't be two Denethors the Stewards at once, to call each other "number I" and "number II". Not so with those weird Elves.:D

[Coffeehouse]

I admire your reasoning and creativity, Gordis, I would caution that we keep in mind the amount of assuming/speculating you're incorporating into it. Even Tolkien said, when asked what he would do differently in the book were he to write it over again, "make it longer." The absence of a description of X does not establish that X did not occur. Thranduil was, at best, a marginal LOTR character. For all we know, he had several long chats with Gandalf, Aragorn, and/or Elrond (he certainly had opportunities to do so) and was privy to the full scoop.

Good point, I think it's natural to assume that many, many conversations occurred in Rivendell between the leaders that has escaped the book, because in the end this is (mostly) a tale from the hobbit's point of view (and much may have escaped their attention) in this quest to destroy the ring.

[Amael]

What if taking "Leggy" (nice - I like that :D ) was actually to punish Thranduil for being such a lousy jailer? (And let's face it, he did suck at it. First he lets Bilbo and the Dwarves high-tail it ... next it's Gollum! :p )

They're woodelves of Mirkwood, not the wiser Elves of Rivendell, Lothlorien, or certainly not Tirion and the Eldar living in Valinor! I'm not surprised they were terrible jailers. They'd be the foes that would place someone in prison and have 1 inept guard guarding them. :D Thranduil was Sindar, related to the Telerin Elves but most of those around him were of the Silvan Elves, descended from Nandor and some Avari among others as well. I call the lines of those in Mirkwood sort of 'thinned out' as the blood of the Eldar is .... quite thin in them now. :rolleyes: Whereas Rivendell troops require no fancy upgrades and rely mostly on skill and the original forgework and skill they have in forgework, those from Mirkwood depend more on numbers it seems than anything. Put 1 guard from Rivendell or Lothlorien there to guard the Dwarves or Gollum and you'll have them trapped for a while. Poor Bilbo wouldn't have had a chance.

And now to the discussion at-hand.

Pregnancy in Elves takes slightly longer than a year, no less than a year. Though they will be quite small, like small children, even at the age of 25, they are already quitte intelligent by the age of 7. They aren't bothered by the Grim Reaper and that may explain why some Elves don't bother to learn many skills very quickly, but some do so anyway. Free will does exist amongst Elves like anyone else. Elves have reached adulthood by 100 years of age. Just because they can live too 30,000 or even more doesn't mean that when they're 2,000 they look like kids in their early teens. To the Elves, teenage still means you're between 13 and 19, so the term 'teenage' is completely different because they look like very small children at those ages. So let's just say they probably reach puberty around between 50 and 75. They'll grow quite a lot in their first 50 years and will still be growing until they are 100 years old. They are pretty much adults at the age of 100, though they might not look so. They change the most durring this time. They'll look like teenagers probably for a couple thousand years. After that time, they will ever so slowly age, so slight that it's not even noticeable for a very very long time. As they live, the amount they age slows even further, and eventually they almost do not age at all.

Galadriel was whatt, around 20,000 years old when she departed for Valinor. She looked not much more than a college-aged gal. Some Elves looked to have aged such as Cirdan went through torture and torment. Elrond was only just over 6,000 years old at the time of leaving Middle Earth, but he definitely did not look as young as other Elves his age looked. He went through a lot of burden in his many years and having not seen Celebrian for a couple of thousand years probablly had something to do with that burden.

Legolas, movie Legolas now, not the book Legolas, looked what I would imagine an Elf between 300 and 1500 would look like. But who knows, not enough is said about it to put a good number on it. 500 times he's seen this and that happen, so since Tolkien wrote it that way, Tolkien being human himself, he probably meant 500 years. He may not havve, but then again he might have.:D

[Earniel]

On a side-note, I would not put the Elves of Lórien on a higher level as those of Mirkwood. While Galadriel was a High Elf, her people were silvan, just like those of Mirkwood. Rivendell on the other hand started out with a majority of Noldor. But I don't think any could have foreseen an invisible Hobbit! ;)

[Willow Oran]

Elrond was only just over 6,000 years old at the time of leaving Middle Earth, but he definitely did not look as young as other Elves his age looked. He went through a lot of burden in his many years and having not seen Celebrian for a couple of thousand years probablly had something to do with that burden.


Elrond is probably not the best example to use to illustrate elven aging. I could be misremembering, but I recall there being some implication that aging for the half-elven was a little unpredictable during the First age, before the choice came into play and when Elrond would have been doing most of his growing.

If you look at timelines of the First Age and do the math you'll find that Earendil would have been just twenty-two years old when Elrond and Elros are said to have been born. So it's probable that the half-elven would continue to mature at rate closer to mannish aging.

Point being that Elrond's slightly more aged appearance might have been because he aged more similarily to the Edain until the point where he chose to be counted as an elf, and could have very little to do with later stresses.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Because eventually all the Legolasi will be stuck in Valinor - either alive or re-embodied. Same reason the elves don't remarry: they would be stuck with a whole range of spouses for all eternity.:eek: Like Mormons. ;)
When a Man dies - he dies for good, there won't be two Denethors the Stewards at once, to call each other "number I" and "number II". Not so with those weird Elves.:D*adds to lists of reasons I'm not hiring elves as problem solvers, since every country cousin I know has figured out a way to call someone "Little Bobbie" and someone "BobbieClark"* :p

[Amael]

On a side-note, I would not put the Elves of Lórien on a higher level as those of Mirkwood. While Galadriel was a High Elf, her people were silvan, just like those of Mirkwood. Rivendell on the other hand started out with a majority of Noldor. But I don't think any could have foreseen an invisible Hobbit! ;)

Indeed, you're right. I would only be counting that for Galadriel when it comes down to it. Thranduil and Legolas were Sindarin mostly while the rest in Mirkwood were mostly Silvan/Avarin/etc.

But I count the Avari higher than most people do. They remained here through it all, they were with it from the beginning. If I had had a choice, given what I've seen, I would have chosen to stay myself. Battling the peoples of the east who were allied to Morgoth had to have creatted an unique situation. The skills of the Avari are underestimated in my opinion, mostly because the others in Middle Earth know very little of them and some Elves don't even care about the Avari. I didn't care for Thranduil's treatment of the Dwarves, his spite had no place and no just cause. His problems with Dwarves was inherited from problems that were had with the Petty Dwarves in the First Age, and his father probably made him prejudiced to them. It's a common theme amongst humans, and seems to be a common theme amongst Elves as well. But besides that, Thranduil is for the most part a pretty loyal person. Legolas in my opinion is the better though. He said to Gimli "what about side by side with a friend" and that showed how unprejudiced he had become. Anyone who says that Legolas served little duty in the Fellowship doesn't see the whole pictture. "You will either unite or you will fall" and that was one of Elrond's main goals with the fellowship actually: diplomacy. Young adult Elves (3000 years old) seem to have the most prejudice. By time you reach Elrond's age, you get tired of all that bickering, and he wass mighty tired of it. Legolas was quite young but bettered himself quite quickly for his young age, considering the possibility of befriending a Dwarf. Gimli did the same upon seeing Galadriel. "These Elven folk, they're not as bad as I thought." That was probably his thoughts after that.

Elrond is probably not the best example to use to illustrate elven aging. I could be misremembering, but I recall there being some implication that aging for the half-elven was a little unpredictable during the First age, before the choice came into play and when Elrond would have been doing most of his growing.

If you look at timelines of the First Age and do the math you'll find that Earendil would have been just twenty-two years old when Elrond and Elros are said to have been born. So it's probable that the half-elven would continue to mature at rate closer to mannish aging.

Point being that Elrond's slightly more aged appearance might have been because he aged more similarily to the Edain until the point where he chose to be counted as an elf, and could have very little to do with later stresses.

That's likely the case. Cirdan would be more or less a better example of Elven aging. He was at the third phase by the time of the War of the Ring. After returning from imprisonment in the First Age, some of his people didn't recognize him at first glance. That aging did have more to do with stress in that case though.

[Willow Oran]

Where does it say that Cirdan was ever imprisoned during the First Age? :confused:

[Amael]

I believe it was Unfinished Tales.

[Earniel]

Are you sure you aren't confusing with Gwindor from the Narn i hin hurin?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I didn't know there were *any* Cirdan tales. He built ships. He gave Gandalf a ring. He used to help out Thingol on occasion. He lived long enough to actually grow a beard. Do we really know much more about him? If so, a citation would be great. I'd love to read more about Cirdan. I think he's a great example of how being a "high" elf is no prerequisite to being one of the great ones.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I didn't know there were *any* Cirdan tales. He built ships. He gave Gandalf a ring. He used to help out Thingol on occasion. He lived long enough to actually grow a beard. Do we really know much more about him? If so, a citation would be great. I'd love to read more about Cirdan. I think he's a great example of how being a "high" elf is no prerequisite to being one of the great ones.See, here's one of those places we differ (I think you mean guarantee, rather than 'prerequisite', here, if not, just ignore me.:p). Cirdan's like Tom. He doesn't get the press, because he's busy doing his job, unlike some wandering meddlers *cough*Mithrandir*cough* who make the great issues all their personal beeswax. I can just see endless generations of Elves staring wistfully out to sea saying, 'Ya know, while we were sitting around trying to invent new names so we wouldn't be confused in the afterlife, we should have looked into this whole "boatbuilding" thing.' :D

They needed a Cirdan on jail-keeping, is my opinion. :D

[Amael]

Are you sure you aren't confusing with Gwindor from the Narn i hin hurin?

No confusion at all with this. It wasn't Gwindor, though some things may have been similar.

[Earniel]

Well, you're going to have to look up the quote then before I believe it. I'm pretty sure if it was in UT then I should have read it. ;)

[BeardofPants]

I don't recall reading it either. I think you're mistaken.

[Amael]

Well no big whoop, I suppose I am mistaken then.:rolleyes: No gang violence necessary.