Who or what was Huan?

[Jon S.]

I posted this a moment ago in another thread:

>> I really dig Huan. One of a kind, he was. I'm still not sure if he was literally a hound or something more (maia). I guess he had to have been to have spoke as he did. Perhaps he was originally literally a hound but then Orome gave him something extra as a special gift.

Then I thought I'd do a quick word search, via the Search function, for threads with Huan in the title to learn more about him. Surprisingly, I got no hits. So I thought I'd start a new thread to ask if anyone has any additional thoughts you'd like share about this remarkable creature.

[Curufin]

I've always just thought he was a pretty amazing dog - but just a dog. Other than his ability to speak (only three times), he really never does anything 'un-dog' like. And if he were a Maia, surely he wouldn't have felt obliged to follow Celegorm, who was only an elf?

[Earniel]

If he's a maia, I always thought he must have been a very low-level of maia. But would Oromë be able to give maiar away in the first place? It sounds just darn disrespectful.

An enhanced dog, then, bit like a fairy dog from the fairy tales, would seem more appropriate to me.

[Curufin]

If he's a maia, I always thought he must have been a very low-level of maia. But would Oromë be able to give maiar away in the first place? It sounds just darn disrespectful.

An enhanced dog, then, bit like a fairy dog from the fairy tales, would seem more appropriate to me.

I agree. I don't think Huan is any more than, as you said, a 'fairy dog.' Celegorm certainly wouldn't have been able to order around a Maia...

[Earniel]

It always remains possible that Celegorm over-stepped his bounds. Oromë might have given him Huan as a companion, not a servant. Just because Huan listened up to a point, might have given Celegorm the idea that he was Huan's master instead of companion. Huan certainly possessed enough personality and sense to break with Celegorm when the latter misbehaved rather badly, which to me indicated his task was companionship, not servitude.

[Curufin]

Well, it would certainly be within Celegorm's character to do such a thing, I agree with you there. But I just don't see anything in the texts to support it. Here's what I find:

The Silmarillion:
Now the chief of the wolf-hounds that followed Celegorm was named Huan. He was not born in Middle-earth, but came from the Blessed Realm; for Oromë had given him to Celegorm long ago in Valinor, and there he had followed the horn of his master, before evil came.

"Oromë had given him" and the phrase "his master" make it sound that he is, indeed under Celegorm's power/ownership.

Book of Lost Tales II:
None however did Tevildo fear, for
he was as strong as any among them, and more agile and more swift save only than Huan Captain of Dogs. So swift was Huan that on a time he had tasted the fur of Tevildo, and though Tevildo had paid him for that with a gash from his great claws, yet was the pride of the Prince of Cats unappeased and he lusted to do a great harm to Huan of the Dogs.

Quite a different story here, of course, but Huan, while the 'Captain of Dogs' is still just a dog.

Lays of Beleriand
In Tavros' friths and pastures green
had Huan once a young whelp been.
He grew the swiftest of the swift,
and Orome gave him as a gift
to Celegorm, who loved to follow
the great God's horn o'er hill and hollow.
Alone of hounds of the Land of Light,
when sons of Feanor took to flight
and came into the North, he stayed
beside his master. Every raid
and every foray wild he shared,
and into mortal battle dared.
Often he saved his Gnomish lord
from Orc and wolf and leaping sword.
A wolf-hound, tireless, grey and fierce
he grew; his gleaming eyes would pierce
all shadows and all mist, the scent
moons old he found through fen and bent,
through rustling leaves and dusty sand;
all paths of wide Beleriand
he knew. But wolves, he loved them best;
he loved to find their throats and wrest
their snarling lives and evil breath.

Awesome dog, but still, just a dog. ;)

HoME IV
Huan was the name of the chief of the hounds of
Celegorm. He was of immortal race from the hunting-lands
of Orome. Orome gave him to Celegorm long before in
Valinor, when Celegorm often rode in the train of the God
and followed his horn. He came into the Great' Lands with
his master, and dart nor weapon, spell nor poison, could
harm him, so that he went into battle with his lord and
saved him many times from death. His fate had been de-
creed that he should not meet death save at the hands of the
mightiest wolf that should ever walk the world.

Now this is interesting. He's still a dog, but he's an 'immortal' dog.

Laws and Customs among the Eldar:
[?Thus] questions were also asked concerning the fate and
death of Men. All [?read Also] concerning other 'speaking', and
therefore 'reasonable', kinds: Ents, Dwarves, Trolls, Orcs -
and the speaking of beasts such as Huan, or the Great Eagles.

Here he's consider a 'speaking beast'.

That's all I could find in the texts. When he's referred to, it's usually as a "hound." That leads me to conclude that while Huan was a pretty awesome dog, he was just a pretty awesome dog. ;)

[Earniel]

I see you've got this researched pretty well.

[Curufin]

Or I just had a really boring morning...;)

[Jon S.]

Either way, your research is impeccable and, for me at least, settles the question. Thanks! :)

[Curufin]

Ah, time for me to swallow my Noldor pride and admit that I missed something...

A friend of mine (who is an incredible Tolkien scholar) and I discussed this, and he told me that it was possible that Tolkien was reconsidering Huan in Myths Transformed and that he could possibly have been a Maiar...

So it is possible, I suppose! I certainly bow to his knowledge in this matter. ;)

[Earniel]

Well, Tolkien did change his mind occasionally, and didn't alway amend his writings to the new theory. So it is possible that Huan started out as an enhanced dog, as the quotes you've given seem to indicate. And that later Tolkien reconsidered and decided on a Maia. In the History of Middle-earth series I've always found it very interesting to see how Tolkien's ideas grew, but it is not easy finding his last thought on some matters.

[Curufin]

In the History of Middle-earth series I've always found it very interesting to see how Tolkien's ideas grew, but it is not easy finding his last thought on some matters.

Yes, me too. I think sometimes you just have to choose whatever is the more consistent path, or even simply choose what you like best. I do very close-to-canon First Age RP's on another board, and we've been having to make some decisions based on differing material. Quite an interesting process to sort through.

As for Huan, it's always suited my sensibilites best to see him as a rather enhanced dog, as he was until a suggestion was made that he might not be in Myths Transformed. So I'll probably stick with that belief, since Tolkien never really completed his thought on anything further. ;)

[Jon S.]

it was possible that Tolkien was reconsidering Huan in Myths Transformed and that he could possibly have been a Maiar...
Perhaps it is worth noting now that dog is god spelled backwards.

[inked]

Or that Huan is Hnau, rearranged. (See Out of the Silent Planet by CS Lewis.)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So he's Martian? ;)

[Rían]

totally OT, but I can't see Roberts' name without laughing! :D I LOVE that movie!!!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

From HoME X, the Professor allows for the possibility of Huan being a Maia:
What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech? These have been rather lightly adopted from less 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot now be excised. They are certainly 'exceptions' and not much used, but sufficiently to show they are a recognized feature of the world. All other creatures accept them as natural if not common.
But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human / 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwë.
With the footnote:
Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)
This is likely what your friend was referring to, Curufin.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Then later in the same essay it becomes clear that Tolkien isn't quite sure:
The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar.

He was kind of "thinking with the pen", as Christopher calls it, throughout this "Orcs" essay so it is hard to determine whether he had come to any firm decisions on these matters.

[Curufin]

This is likely what your friend was referring to, Curufin.

Yes, probably. My friend (who you know too, DPR ;)) said that it wasn't certain, but that it was at least 'considered' by Tolkien.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think since this is one of those things Tolkien wasn't sure about, we're free to draw our own conclusions without fear of reprisals from the Tolcendili.

[Curufin]

Yes, me too. ;)

And I don't personally think Huan was a Maia...

[The Telcontarion]

Tolkien introduced a strict "system" of living creatures:

* Incarnates or the "Children of Ilúvatar": Elves, Men, Dwarves and Orcs, — those who possessed fëar or souls, with the defining characteristic of being able to speak;[39]
* Self-incarnates or the Valar and Maiar — "angelic" spirits that "arrayed" themselves in bodily forms of the Incarnates or of animals,[35][40] able to communicate both by thought and speech;[39]
* animals, without the soul and unable to speak.
(wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_(Middle-earth)))

I knew I remember reading this in the silmarillion but was too lazy to look it up and post it but I then found it wikipedia. Haun was one of those lesser spirits that came to ME with the valar, which would make him a maia.

Obviously if he was speaking he was not just some animal, the ultimate dog maybe but not just a dog. He was intelligent and when he spoke it showed he was observing the whole time what was happening all around him, because the 3 times he did spoke showed great wisdom as his advise was very important to beren and luthien; even upon his death when he spoke you knew those were not words of some dumb animal. I think he was just in nature and intent meant to be a symbol of the ultimate dog in every way, thus speaking would not fit that mold as ordinary dogs did not speak, doesn't mean he could not: he was dutiful and served his purpose.

Thorondor is the same though he spoke all the time, he was most definately a maia spirit. "They arrayed themselves in the bodies of incarnates/children of illuvatar or animals," that's plain right there.

Remember even the valar chose forms that suited their mood, pertaining to the part of the "music" they listened to most. Thorondor's spirit was just that, thorondor and Haun became Haun.

Was Gandalf not a maia or was he just a man: think.

[Curufin]

Was Gandalf not a maia or was he just a man: think.

Gandalf was a Maia. He's called so repeatedly, and he's in the chapter 'of the Maiar' in the Silmarillion, as well as other places in the HoME I'm too lazy to look up right now. ;)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Technically, he's not mentioned per se in the Silmarillion. Olórin the Maia is mentioned in The Silmarillion and in LotR Gandalf gives Olórin as his name in his "youth, in the West that is forgotten." So one has to have read both books to make the connection. But it is assumed that anyone in this thread has done so. Anyway, Gandalf is a Maia.

Huan, I'd like to think is a Maia, as well. I think it is important to remember that any spirit made by Iluvatar that isn't Valar, is Maiar. That's what the Maiar are.

The difficulty, as seen in Tolkien's musings and our own common sense, is when these spirits incarnate and then breed. What are their offspring? And was Huan an incarnate Maia or was he merely the offspring of such? Or something else entirely?

[Curufin]

I think it is important to remember that any spirit made by Iluvatar that isn't Valar, is Maiar. That's what the Maiar are.

Not technically true. Ilúvatar also made the spirits of Elves and Men.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think they're the same kind of spirits. That we call them both the same thing is a flaw in the English language (kind of like Galadriel's "magic" versus Sam's "magic").

Is a Maia a fea?

[Curufin]

Can't answer that, I'm afraid.

Does a Maia have a fëa? Does a Vala have a fëa?

I don't know.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The question was (almost) rhetorical. I don't believe they're the same thing, but I leave open the possibility that I'm wrong.

[Curufin]

The question was (almost) rhetorical. I don't believe they're the same thing, but I leave open the possibility that I'm wrong.

I know. ;) So were mine.

I think you're right that they are different, but how different?

This is getting away from the question, however. I don't think the text really indicates that Huan is a Maia. I think it indicates to the contrary, actually. There is the one point where Tolkien might once have thought about it at one time, but I really think he's just a dog.

[Earniel]

I was thinking about the possibility of maiar having offspring, and then I come here, being excited by this idea and see Dread Pirate has long mentioned it before. Hmpf. :p

But nevertheless, I like the idea of more maian blood being infused in middle-earthern bloodlines. Specifically in regards to all the talking animals, such as the ravens of the Lonely Mountain that could talk too. Having them be descendants from one maia mixed into their ordinary ancestors could result in a sort of enhancing of the animal in question, without it being what we call the maiar.

[Curufin]

Having them be descendants from one maia mixed into their ordinary ancestors could result in a sort of enhancing of the animal in question, without it being what we call the maiar.

I like this idea...although I'm not sure there's any textual evidence for it (that I can remember right off hand, anyway. But I don't remember any textual evidence against it, either, which is just as good. :p

[Earniel]

It is - of course - pure conjecture. But it is an interesting possibility nevertheless.

[Curufin]

I'm perfectly open to conjecture, as long as it doesn't go directly against canon. :) I RP, after all. :)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

We do have Luthien who seems to have had some abilities a normal Elf wouldn't have. There is no indication, however, that anything Maiar passed on to Dior or beyond...but is there?

Could Ulmo have turned just anyone into a bird, at will? Or was there something about Elwing that made it possible? He didn't turn Voronwe into a bird, but just sent the poor guy body-surfing. He didn't turn any of the Elves into birds to get them to Valinor in the first place, but rather had to make an island ferry for them. Why just Elwing? Maia blood?

[Curufin]

Could be. Maybe he just liked her, too.

And I can't recall anything specifically 'Maia' done by Dior, or Elwing, or Elrond or Elros, or Arwen, or anyone in Elros's line. I think they're supposed to be a little more special, a little 'better' but how much is anyone's guess.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

They were certainly considered to be better looking...
I'm stretching with the bird transformation thing. Definitely fanfic there.

[Curufin]

Were they (the line of Elros, I mean) considered to be better-looking than the Eldar?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think so. I was mainly thinking the Dior, Elwing, Elrond, Arwen line. The Man side of the family may have been better looking than other men, and indeed seems to have been right down to Imrahil's day, but better looking than the Eldar I have to doubt unless there's some evidence I'm missing.

[Curufin]

I didn't think so, either.

They're good looking for men, but certainly not to the beauty of Maiar. Although doesn't it say something somewhere about Arwen channeling Lúthien? Not in those words, of course.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Of course, there's the matter of taste, as well. Not everyone swoons over the same type. There's someone for everyone, even Ghan-Buri-Ghan, I presume.

[Curufin]

Well, I don't think with Arwen that it was so much 'Beauty is in the eyes of the Beholder,' or with Lúthien, for that matter. I think they were both heart-rendingly lovely. ;)

EDIT: Woohoo, I have a nifty user title!

[Jon S.]

It took me another month but darn if I don't believe I have the answer now to the riddle and the best part of it is, this time, I found it myself.

OF AULE AND YVANNA

"... Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yvanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/k/kelvar.html

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Great find. I think we most often apply this to Ents and forget that it says both kelvar and olvar. I think you've hit right on the target.

[Earniel]

Indeed, a good find. I don't think a better explanation than that can be found.

[Finarfin-1]

Another thing,
The creation of Carcaroth, the Wolf who Huan fought and died killing. Morgoth created him by "putting his power into him". Now, Melkor was said to "Have a share in the gifts of all other Ainur". Might we suppose that the creation of Carcaroth was a debased example of Morgoth using Orome's type of power?

Carcaroth could reason. He had "heard the tidings long since brought to Angband of the death of Drauuglin", which was why he challenged Beren and Luthien at the gate and made it necessary for Luthien to hit him with the knockout whammy. Luthien also called this reasoning wolf a "woe-begotten spirit" when it would have been just as easy (and make a lot more sense) if she felt Carcaroth was just some sort of twisted animal to call him a woe-begotten creature or something like that.

I think the creation of Carcaroth in a backhanded way supports the theory that Huan is a spirit that Orome called/persuaded to his service, which took the form of a Hound because that was its nature, in the same way as the Valar and Maiar appear as male and female humanoids in keeping with their natures.

[Valarauko5]

Wow. If only this sort of thing could happen with Balrogs that would put that to rest to. :) Cool. Thanks guys for figuring this out. I can now use this in an argument on Facebook with a would-be hard core LotR fan who doesn't know Maia from Valar. This is really cool.:D

[Mornorngûr]

Interesting points being made here...

I think we can all conclude that the actual explanation would go a little something like this: Yavanna feared that Morgoth would ruin/destroy her designs (Kelvar and Olvar), so she went to Manwe and they spoke about this. She declared to him her desire "Would that the Tree's might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them", and Manwe took council with Eru. It was then revealed to Yavanna that when the Elve's awake, the designs of her thought shall awake also (Eru will cause this to come to be).

"... Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yvanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."

The spirits that it mentions as summoning from afar, would seem to be some of the remaining Ainu that stayed with Eru outside of Ea. The Valar are the powers of Arda and the Maia their servants, yet they are all of the race of the Ainur. Why then do these other spirits (Huan, Thorondor, etc...) have to be Maia?
A Maia is not a race, but an order ruled by the Valar. The spirits embodied within Tolkien's enchanted beasts are but a different order of the Ainur sent by Eru to govern where appointed amongst the lesser equivalents of their appointed beast kind.


Just my thoughts
Thankyou.

[Elennár]

Can't answer that, I'm afraid.

Does a Maia have a fëa? Does a Vala have a fëa?

I don't know.

No, they don't. There is a fundamental difference between a fëa of a Child of Illuvatar, and an Ainu: a fëa is incomplete without the hroa, it needs the body to survive/reach its full potential.
Whereas an Ainu doesn't require physical bodies to survive at all, they're just used as a matter of convenience/choice/taste.
Ulmo, for example, didn't like taking physical shape that much; so he didn't unless he absolutely needed to.
This is turning into a rather Off Topic rant, but I think that a physical body limited the power of an Ainu in some way- almost the opposite of an Incarnate, such as an elf or human.
So, if Huan was an Ainu, he would've been unfallen (being in the service of Manwë). That would mean he would've been able to forsake physical shape.
But he didn't.

[Jon S.]

This is my first post in 2 years and 8 months. For some inexplicable reason, I became curious specifically as to what happened to this thread. Amazing that it's still alive after all this time (the last post dated just several days ago!).

[Lefty Scaevola]

This is, afterall, Entmoot, where thread proceed at an Entish pace.