Do the Silmarils have any particular importance after the First Age?

[Peter_20]

It's said in The Silmarillion that two Jewels were lost in the earth and the sea, and the third one stayed with Eärendil, who travelled through the regions of Ílmen.
However, I fail to recall an event in which the Silmarils actually were important once more.
I once heard of a rather interesting theory saying that the Arkenstone of Thrain was a Silmaril, but nothing speaks for this rumour.

[Earniel]

You could take Galadriel's phial into account. That contained the light of the starry silmaril and did have a role of some importance in the events of LoTR.

[YayGollum]

Something that I would have pointed out, as well. Towards the Arkenstone idea, I can speak for that rumor. Why not? That one spawn of Feanor had the silmaril in his paw, then jumped with it into some superly deep chasm, yes? I don't remember the exact location being pointed out especially specifically on some map, but I figure that it wasn't especially close to the Lonely Mountain. But then, I see no large problems with the idea that something could have moved the thing, mayhaps after nibbling a bit on the elf's corpse.

[durinsbane2244]

While it doesn't actually happen in the LotR, it could be said the Earendil, with a Silmaril, helps in the Dagor Dagorath, which is after the First Age.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Something that I would have pointed out, as well. Towards the Arkenstone idea, I can speak for that rumor. Why not? That one spawn of Feanor had the silmaril in his paw, then jumped with it into some superly deep chasm, yes? I don't remember the exact location being pointed out especially specifically on some map, but I figure that it wasn't especially close to the Lonely Mountain. But then, I see no large problems with the idea that something could have moved the thing, mayhaps after nibbling a bit on the elf's corpse.

This is why not:it said in the Silmarillion that the Stones shall lay in their "beds" until the world is remade. Sorry if I´m being a smartass. :D :p :eek:

[YayGollum]

Hm? No large deal. This is why what I wrote could still work: Beds are mentioned. We gots the one in the sky, one in the sea, and one in the earth. Tossed into that chasm, then grabbed by something, moved towards the Lonely Mountain and found by Dwarves still equals the earth as that particular silmaril's bed. Anyways, would you happen to know how that information is given? You seemed more familiar, and I don't especially wish to hunt for that quote, at the moment. I merely ask because I could make that case that whatever character said that obviously had no idea what he was talking about. :rolleyes: But then, I don't mind disagreeing with Tolkiens, either, if an idea makes sense. :rolleyes:

[Willow Oran]

The Arkenstone and the Silmaril of Maedhros being the same stone is an improbable, but tempting, theory. Maedhros probably couldn't have borne the thing long enough to carry it all the way to the vicinity of the Lonely Mountain, and it is doubtful that it could have been retrieved and carried by some underground critter as it was specified that Maedhros leapt into a fiery chasm. It is possible that geological forces could have moved it, except that there is a continent and two other mountain ranges in the way and said forces would need something along the lines of 6 million rather than 6 thousand years to act.

That said, the Arkenstone is the only other remarkably shiny thing associated with the earth and there are some nice parallels between the two gems.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's said in The Silmarillion that two Jewels were lost in the earth and the sea, and the third one stayed with Eärendil, who travelled through the regions of Ílmen.
However, I fail to recall an event in which the Silmarils actually were important once more.
I once heard of a rather interesting theory saying that the Arkenstone of Thrain was a Silmaril, but nothing speaks for this rumour.

I don't think so; wasn't the point largely that the Silmarilli were something of the ancient past, and were pretty much out of the picture?

[Olmer]

Seems too many were handling the Arkenstone without any ill effect for them.
Remember, Varda hallowed the Silmarills, so, anyone, who would hold them, could get horrible burns. Even vala Melkor did not escape from it.
So, we can't say that it's the one gem under 2 different names, unless the Silmarill lost its potency after laying inground for eons, or Varda changed her mind and decided that enough of sacrificials have been done to pronounce the stone unholy.

[YayGollum]

Well, no, the silmarils merely burned anyone who was evil. Dwarves were made specifically by Aule to be superly resistant to evil, and the evil thief Bilbo Baggins probably just wasn't evil enough for that Tolkien dude. :rolleyes: If the silmarils burned anybody, why would some immortal sailor/star wear the thing as a forehead ornament?

[Ingwe]

Well my first post here, so here it goes (my posts are often long).

Nuke! (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=6118) <- basically a similar discussion, deals with how to destroy the One Ring (in which there is just one solution, which was what destroyed it).

In there is also mentioned the 'possibility' of the Silmaril bound to the Earth being in the fiery pits of Orodruin.

The Inland Sea of Helkar, however, remained until the very end of the First Age. When Maedhros cast his Silmaril into the Earth, it was 587 of the First Age, the time at the end of the War of Wrath, just three years before Morgoth was finally imprisoned in the Voids of Ea. The Inland Sea of Helkar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Helkar), according to some maps, covered Mordor, which didn't exist yet.

If it (The Sea of Helkar) drained in sufficient time, the way could have been paved in time for Maedhros to cast the Silmaril there, though it's uncertain how likely it is whether or not he would have traveled over 1,500 miles from Beleriand to Mordor to do it.

The point of this possibility is that (though non-canon and thus completely hypothetical) if that is the case, the Silmarils played a big part in the development of the ages that would come to pass.

If I were Tolkien, I probably would have left the road open for that possibility (given that the Silmarillion was published posthumously (after Tolkien's death) as a result of a collection of JRR's works by his son Christopher Tolkien - J.R.R. Tolkien haven written these ). In the midst of the editing, some of the clues to this, and other possibilities, could have been lost either partially or altogether.


An off-topic response follows: this place is pretty cool. I'm surprised I hadn't seen it before. Keep up the good work, and the interesting topics!


- Ingwe

[YayGollum]

Hm. A cool thread. I had never thought of the idea that a silmaril could destroy the One Ring thing. Makes sense, since the things burned evil. But then, I don't know about the idea that a silmaril could have been stuck somewhere under Mount Doom and was supplying magical power to the place. Was not Mount Doom purely a Sauron-powered place? I figured that Sauron, an Aule-type Ainur anyways, must have used his creepy powers on the geographical feature, and once the One Ring thing was destroyed, everything stopped working the way he'd like it to. If a bit of silmarilish power went into the One Ring thing, wouldn't there have been little need for poor Sauron to use up so much of his own power?

Also, Oo! Once the nasssty hobbitses and wizards and things failed, would Mandos have handed Feanor an extra corpse and ordered him to march over there and confiscate the thing? :rolleyes: <--- Figuring that Feanor wouldn't be negatively affected by the thing, since a large part of his own power went into the silmaril.

[Olmer]

If a bit of silmarilish power went into the One Ring thing, wouldn't there have been little need for poor Sauron to use up so much of his own power?
You are mixing up two different things:The Ring was a bio-transmitter, the Silmarills were basically the transmitters of the light and of some harmful burnung energy. Does not it remind you of some particular source of energy of present time? ;)
And if they were hallowed by Varda as a rudiment of Arda's destiny, then she has had a very good reason for the Silmarills to be handled with a pure heart.
I think that the power of Silmarills is much more greater than anything had been created in Arda ever since, and only Valar and Feanor knew about their's true power and how to use it. This why it has been so much hassles about it. :cool:
Melkor, even if he stole the stones, did not know how to use them for his advantage. This why he did not do any better than to embed them in his crown. Or, maybe, as a Vala and a maker of the song he foresaw that the stones will bring a lot of grieves, and took them away from everyone who will be tempted. Eru knows... :rolleyes:
Any way, the Maia Sauron wouldn't use the Sil as his leverage , because even the Vala Melkor did not know how to use them.

BTW, Ingwe, wellcome to the Moot. Interesting notes, although I don't agree with you.The sea of Rhun is what has been left of the sea of Helkar. At the area of Mordor used to be the land of Hildorien, the area where the first Men woke up .
I don't think that anything had been known about how is reshaping the land thousand miles away.The Great Battle caused a great distabilization of Beleriand's continental shelf, and in result for 50 years has been continious upheavals of the earth. So, at that time you did not have to walk too far to find "the fiery chasm".

[YayGollum]

Got it. But then, I see no evidence that some silmaril would be supplying energy for no good reason. It only burned anybody if they were evil. Merely sitting at the bottom of some volcano that was used this one time by this one at least halfway evil dude shouldn't have supplied all of that energy. But then, mayhaps the fact that the whole place was somehow corrupted kept the thing in its "Hurt" mode.

Anyways, thinking about creepy energy stuffs, the elves show up in Valinor and somehow absorb extra power from the two trees. The residual power left around apparently kills humans off quickly. Looks like that one Dwarf and all of those nasssty hobbitses who sailed over there wouldn't have been too comfortable. :rolleyes: As well as, Yay for another reason for me to be creeped out by elves. Scary mutant things! Not just superly powered humans.

[Ingwe]

BTW, Ingwe, wellcome to the Moot. Interesting notes, although I don't agree with you.The sea of Rhun is what has been left of the sea of Helkar. At the area of Mordor used to be the land of Hildorien, the area where the first Men woke up .
I don't think that anything had been known about how is reshaping the land thousand miles away.The Great Battle caused a great distabilization of Beleriand's continental shelf, and in result for 50 years has been continious upheavals of the earth. So, at that time you did not have to walk too far to find "the fiery chasm".

Thanks. Pretty cool place. Yep, I realize the sea of Rhun was what was left of Helkar. My assumption was that Hildorien was further to the east of Mordor. In the early ages there was also the Mountains of the Wind, some of that range that was left over may have been some of the mountains of Mordor.

But it seemed kinda far from Beleriand, down through Eriador, then to Mordor.

[Noble Elf Lord]

If I remember correctly, the quote goes that no mortal flesh may touch the Sils and stay unburnt. And I suppose that the Arkenstone is too big to be a Silmaril. But that´s just a guess. :D

[Olmer]

But then, I see no evidence that some silmaril would be supplying energy for no good reason. It only burned anybody if they were evil.
Or was burning anyone, who did not know how to handle it.I think the power of the Silmarills was somehow consisting of the power of Valar. While Melkor kept the stones, Valar stayed away from Middle earth, even Orome was hunting somewhere else. They were afraid of Melkor. Only when they have got just one stone, they used it to overthrow the mighty Vala.
Remember that "host of the Valar was driven back" until Vingilot has come, "shining with white flame". I don't know how big was the Vingilot, a little vessel with a deadly shining light, kind of a lazer-beam, or a science-fiction space-ship, equipt with god knows technology, throwing the white flame, but with whatever it has been equipped was enough to overthrow Ancalagon, and he was not a small thing, if his fall destroyed the three mountains of Thangorodrim.
Any way,the Vingilot with the Silmarill on it has decided the outcome of the battle. Imagine what it would be with three silmarills?
But even so the Valar were afraid to come, even well known brawler Tulkas did not show up. Eonwe was at command, but he is not a Vala.

Anyways, thinking about creepy energy stuffs, the elves show up in Valinor and somehow absorb extra power from the two trees. The residual power left around apparently kills humans off quickly. Looks like that one Dwarf and all of those nasssty hobbitses who sailed over there wouldn't have been too comfortable. :rolleyes: As well as, Yay for another reason for me to be creeped out by elves. Scary mutant things! Not just superly powered humans
That is another interesting theme to discuss, but it is OFF-top in this thread. :)

And I suppose that the Arkenstone is too big to be a Silmaril. But that´s just a guess.
How big were the Silmarills in your opinion?

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Many characters are alive in the Third Age whom the Silmarils affected directly, such as Elrond and Galadriel.

[Olmer]

Many characters are alive in the First whom the Silmarils affected directly, such as Elrond and Galadriel.
Couldn't you be more explicit?
I mean, give some basis to your statement.
I understood that Elrond's destiny has been decided because of the Silmarills, but Galadriel "affected directly"?...In which way?
It's a fact that she has never been after the stones, and used it as an excuse to leave Valinor to seek for the land, where she can RULE on her own.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Elrond's mother "died" withholding a Silmaril from Maedhros and his father bears it across the heavens. When Elrond's mother died, Elrond and Elros were fostered by Maglor. Therefore, even their early childhood was dictated by the Oath of Feanor and the hunt for the Silmarils.

Galadriel would never have left Tirion had it not been for Feanor's campaign to avenge his father and regain the Silmarils. It was that campaign, in fact, which allowed her to gain so much power and standing even early on, when she helped to lead Fingolfin's host across Helcaraxe.

[Peter_20]

How big were the Silmarills in your opinion?Fëanor was able to wear all of them on his brow, so they'd probably be small enough to easily fit in the palm of your hand.

I say they'd be in the size of golf balls.

[Tuinor]

Good evening, everyone.

I saw this thread, and thought it might be fun. I seem to remember reading in one of the histories of Middle-Earth (possibly the fourth) of a prophecy Tolkien wrote about concerning the end times of Middle-Earth. It held that the sign of the end times would be the return of the Silmarils to Middle-Earth (how isn't explained), the release of Morgoth, and the ressurection of both Feanor and Turin Turambar. However, I don't believe it is found in the final Silmarilion. :( If anyone has the book, The Shaping of Middle-Earth, you might want to look it up. Also, I just found a wikipedia description of the "end times". Here's the page address:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

:D Have fun!

[Finarfin-1]

Had a thought,
What if the Hiding of Valinor/Downfall of Numenor (which was when Illuvatar made a bunch of new lands, seas, etc) provided the tectonic forces to move the Silmaril a vast distance from the "fiery chasm" that Maedhros hurled it and himself into?

The forces exerted on Arda were so immense and complicated at the time that Illuvatar took over direct governance of Arda from the Valar after the Numenoreans screwed up so badly that who really knows what the consequences were to features of the planet not readily apparent?

Just thought this event could explain either the Arkenstone or the Silmaril-in-Mount Doom theory.

[Curufin]

I don't subscribe to the Arkenstone or the Silmaril-in-Mt. Doom theory.

At the end of the time of the sons of Fëanor, there was a Silmaril present in the land (Maedhros's), Sea (Maglor's) and the Air (Eärendil). Therefore, a tiny bit of the original unsullied light existed in all three phases of the earth, perhaps keeping alive in those who lived in Arda the hope of Arda Unmarred...It was a mythological device, and I do not believe that Tolkien would have ruined it by bringing the Silmaril back into one of the lesser mythologies.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[bsj2312]

The Arkenstone in its description is MUCH MUCH different than the description of the Silmarils. Did it change shape, size, and facets while it was lost? Come on, now. Re-read people!!!

[DARKastheRAIN]

The Arkenstone wasn't bright enough to be a Silmaril.

When it gets dark, go outside and locate the brightest little light (apart form the moon) that you can find. Unless it's the wrong time of night, chances are that's what we lowly mortals call Venus, or the Morning Star, and believe to be a planet. But as those of us schooled in the ancient lore know, that it is none other than Earendil with a Silmaril of Feanor strapped to his brow.

Now back to the Hobbit's tale, when Bilbo Baggins found the Arkenstone, the Dwarves happend to be watching him from the mouth of the tunnel, it was completely dark in the cave, and all they saw was his tiny little torch light moving further into the cave as he stooped to pick up the Arkenstone.

Now tell me, if we can see Earendil's Silmaril outshining every other star in the sky when we stand on the ground and look up at it countless miles above us, why can the Dwarves not see it's triplet when they're just across the cave from it? And how does the Morning Star manage to outshine all the stars of Elbereth if an identical stone can't even outshine a Hobbits torch? The brightness of the Silmarills may never have been measured in ampheres, but if one had been in that cave, it is my belief, that no one would have had any need of torches.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

Good evening, everyone.

I saw this thread, and thought it might be fun. I seem to remember reading in one of the histories of Middle-Earth (possibly the fourth) of a prophecy Tolkien wrote about concerning the end times of Middle-Earth. It held that the sign of the end times would be the return of the Silmarils to Middle-Earth (how isn't explained), the release of Morgoth, and the ressurection of both Feanor and Turin Turambar. However, I don't believe it is found in the final Silmarilion. :( If anyone has the book, The Shaping of Middle-Earth, you might want to look it up. Also, I just found a wikipedia description of the "end times". Here's the page address:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

:D Have fun!

I saw that too on Wiki, haha! It quite fascinated me. ;o I just read The Silmarillion for the second time and there are soms indications about Dagor Dagorath or The End, but it's not quite clear.
I haven't read The History of Middle-Earth-series, maybe I should do that once. (:

-Off-topic: I'm new here and this is really cool, because I still don't know a lot of Middle-Earth and stuff. I have also a lot of questions and this site is very helpful, thank you. (: