How did Arwen give up her immortality?

[ringbearer]

Is it explained...is there a ritual performed? Does "just staying" in ME and not sailing off cause it to happen? Or is it just a choice?

[Valandil]

Elrond and his brother Elros - and also the children of Elrond - were given the choice of being counted among Men or Elves because of their mixed lineage. This appears to have been a special grant to those few, not to any or all of mixed lineage.

Elrond chose to be among the Elves, Elros chose to be among Men.

For Arwen, choosing to be among Men went hand-in-hand with choosing to marry a man.

We are not told with certainty about the choices of Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers. Most probably think they chose to be numbered with the Elves.

[brownjenkins]

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

I've always assumed that the "choice" was an event unique to the Eärendil and Elwing situation (them and their two children). Elros' children, for example, weren't given the choice to be elves, and it doesn't seem as if Dior was ever presented with a choice either.

[Rían]

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them. That's true, I never thought of that - but the Dunedain could do that, too ... hmmm ...

*gets out "Letters of JRRT" *

No, JRRT says Elrond and Arwen are parted, hence their great grief - so she definitely made the choice. (possible side-thread: is JRRT pro-choice? ;) ) And a footnote in letter 246 has some good info, too.


But an interesting question, Ringbearer - is there some sort of ritual, or just something like a prayer request?

[Butterbeer]

Indeed - very good question!

...........

She made the choice - no two ways - but i wonder if she needed to - or was it almost forced on her?


is it a procreation thing do you think?

(in a funny old way,if it was that, it would make sense!)

[Tessar]

Simply put, she requested, and then filled out, a 'Termination of Services' form with the EIC (Elvish Immortality Center), stopped paying her yearly fees, and dropped her subscription to the monthly newsletter.

[Jon S.]

I think it's pretty clear the half-elven get to choose and their choices become their reality.

[Valandil]

Yes - early in Appendix A (second page of it, in my paperback), see the one paragraph that starts:

The sons of Earnedil were Elros and Elrond, The Peredhil...

The next paragraph continues:

At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose...

Later in that same paragraph:

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world, or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

As for why Elros' children were not given the same chance as Elrond's... why clearly because their father had made the right choice! ;) For Elrond's children it was sort of a second chance to get it right. :p

[Jon S.]

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!
*pokes Jon S.*
Problems of species biology are but child's play for someone who makes up an entire cosmology. Humans and Elves who wanted to breed got permission from the head dragon. ;)

[brownjenkins]

Val knows his appendices! :D

[Jon S.]

*pokes Jon S.*
Problems of species biology are but child's play for someone who makes up an entire cosmology. Humans and Elves who wanted to breed got permission from the head dragon. ;)
LOL! :D I am duly chastised. :o

[ecthelion]

What about unfinished tales and the potion of immortality that Elves there drink, and offer to the human? Is it a metaphore, or JRR's early\late\side position?

[Butterbeer]

Yes - early in Appendix A (second page of it, in my paperback), see the one paragraph that starts:



The next paragraph continues:



Later in that same paragraph:



As for why Elros' children were not given the same chance as Elrond's... why clearly because their father had made the right choice! ;) For Elrond's children it was sort of a second chance to get it right. :p


so- we beg the question - if he really loved his daughter, he couldn't have hung around a few mortal years, those of Aragorn's mortal life?

Left the sons and heirs of the union to renew the bloodline and all sailed to the West happy? (with a few hankerchiefs for Arwen)

What gives?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!

Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elves and men are biologically identical?

[Landroval]

Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elves and men are biologically identical?
Indeed:
Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.

[Gordis]

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.
Tolkien should have said "one species"

[Landroval]

Tolkien should have said "one species"
IIRC, race is more specific than species, therefore the usage is adequate.

[Kevin McIntyre]

IIRC, race is more specific than species, therefore the usage is adequate.

Race is not a biological distinction and is more of a political device used to exploit superficial physical differences (In both world - ours and Tolkien's).

I was under the impression is that there were some physical differences between various elves (example the elves of Gondolin tended to be smaller than their Noldorian cousins) as there were physical differences between various houses of men - however the real difference between elves and men was their spirit or fëa and the theological constraints placed on it by Eru.

[Landroval]

Well, Oxford dictionary does list race as a biological term:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/race_2?view=uk

5 Biology: a distinct population within a species; a subspecies.

[Rían]

As for why Elros' children were not given the same chance as Elrond's... why clearly because their father had made the right choice! ;) For Elrond's children it was sort of a second chance to get it right. :pLOL!!! :D

*bops Val on the head with a rubber chicken*

[Alcuin]

Is it explained...is there a ritual performed? Does "just staying" in ME and not sailing off cause it to happen? Or is it just a choice?Contract, signed in her blood with a silver pen, carried back to Valinor by Gandalf. (?!)

[The Telcontarion]

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

I've always assumed that the "choice" was an event unique to the Eärendil and Elwing situation (them and their two children). Elros' children, for example, weren't given the choice to be elves, and it doesn't seem as if Dior was ever presented with a choice either.

The choice was given to the half elvin not just to the children of Earindil and Elwing. At the time, only this family of half elvin remained (Dior and his sons were dead), so only they were mentioned.

This is self evident in the choices given to the offspring of both Elrond and Elros. Elros' children had no choice because their father was a man, due to his choice, so his children were as well mortal. Elrond was peredhel and accounted one of the elves, he married an elf, therefore, his children were peredhel as well (were not Elladan and Elrohir discribed as looking like great men of westernesse in gondor - I am not at home, can't get direct quote). If Elros had chosen to have an elvin queen, his children too then would have the choice set before them, being then indeed peredhel.

Another point I agree with, I do believe choosing to be accounted among men would have been the right choice for any peredhel (Earindil knew and if not for Elwing, so he would have chosen). Self evident in the restrictions placed on the children of Elrond; that if they stayed behind when there father departed, then mortal they would become. This is how Arwen gave up her immortality, she chose to stay in ME, when her father went to valinor.

PS. Elladan and Elrohir I believed also chose to be accounted men and became lords of gondor as there is no mention ever of them leaving with Elrond. (Tolkien's writing can be very subtle you know).

PS2. Could you imagine an elven queen of numinore. If the heir chose to be accounted among the elves, an immortal peredhel king (Tar Peredhel?) would be ruling numinore; how deferent then, would events might have been - interesting.

[Gordis]

The choice was given to the half elvin not just to the children of Earindil and Elwing. At the time, only this family of half elvin remained (Dior and his sons were dead), so only they were mentioned.
I have to disagree, sorry. The choice was only given to that family - Earendil and Elwing and their descendants, not to other half-elven"


But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'Silm


An elf called Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean around 1800 TA. And what? Their children became mortal by default, no choice given. Lords of Dol Amroth are their descendants. Mithrellas herself has not become mortal - she left one night and never returned to her husband again.

PS2. Could you imagine an elven queen of numinore. If the heir chose to be accounted among the elves, an immortal peredhel king (Tar Peredhel?) would be ruling numinore; how deferent then, would events might have been - interesting.
An Elf whom Elros might have have married wouldn't be of the descendants of Earendil and Elwing - so their children would get no choice. They would be mortal. Maybe Elros's wife WAS an elf - we are told nothing about her - but it would have changed nothing.

[Gordis]

Well, Oxford dictionary does list race as a biological term:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/race_2?view=uk

Anyway, races or ethnic groups or whatever can interbreed and have fertile offsprings. White Caucasians can intermarry with Black Africans for instance.

What Tolkien had in mind ("one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event") was clearly "species".

Tolkien clearly referred to Mayr's definition of species as "a group of actually or potentially interbreeding populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups".

In short, sub-species or races can interbreed at least potentially, different species can't breed and produce fertile offsprings.

[The Telcontarion]

I have to disagree, sorry. The choice was only given to that family - Earendil and Elwing and their descendants, not to other half-elven"




An elf called Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean around 1800 TA. And what? Their children became mortal by default, no choice given. Lords of Dol Amroth are their descendants. Mithrellas herself has not become mortal - she left one night and never returned to her husband again.

She eventually left her children behind remember, that could be why they became mortal. There would be no choice before them then.

[Gordis]

She eventually left her children behind remember, that could be why they became mortal. There would be no choice before them then.

Please have a look at the quote from the Silm I posted in #24. Manwe decreed: "to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined."
Mithrellas wes a silvan Elf, like Nimrodel, so she had nothing to do with Earendil or Elwing. She was no Peredhel - thus no choice.

[Lefty Scaevola]

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? Various part of JRRTs notes and formerly unpulbished writings contained in HoME makit clear that biologically/genetically Elves and Humans are the same species, and that the differenc is in the spirits/souls. In infancy and toddlerhood they are indistiguishable, but the spirit actually adapts and molds the bodies to fit in differences. the biggest difference is that the spirit of the eavles is bound to the world, and the spirits of men will leave it, also the spirit of elves is very unhappy absent a body. This leads (among other things) to the longevity of the Elvish body, and to the restlessness of Humans. The Valar were directed by Eru to make judjments as to which path the the spirits of the half elven were to follow, and apparently either Eru or the Valar would effetuate that judgment. It is nowhere stated why the children of Elrond were also given choice, rather than than being bound by his choice, made before they were borne. Two possibilities, were some prohecy among the Valar that one of his children would be some sort of nexus between Elves and Humans. or perhpas the choice of Human spirit, then passed to a subsequent child was more irrevocable, maybe the "gift to men" could not be withdrawn once attached.

[Olmer]

... the biggest difference is that the spirit of the eavles is bound to the world, and the spirits of men will leave it, also the spirit of elves is very unhappy absent a body.
If the spirits of Elves are permanently bound to this world, then it's a lot of unhappy elven souls are wandering around. :)

[Wayfarer]

Two possibilities, were some prohecy among the Valar that one of his children would be some sort of nexus between Elves and Humans. or perhpas the choice of Human spirit, then passed to a subsequent child was more irrevocable, maybe the "gift to men" could not be withdrawn once attached.

Like Valandil says in the second post, I think it more likely that the allowance for Elrond's children came about because Arwen wanted the choice. After all, it was a pretty extraordinary circumstance - you can count on one hand the number of times it's ever happened, and that includes people like Tuor who weren't half blooded. Also Dior, who was half-elven but isn't ever mentioned as being given a choice.

Possibly since it seems to only become an issue with Eärendil and Elwing's kids (who were at least second-generation half-elves), they just didn't want a separate race to deal with and decided to file them with one or the others.

As it comes to that, I personally find the 'paperwork' explanation makes the most sense. Not literally (although it does amuse me to imagine Tuor breaking into the records in Valinor like Sun Wukong and writing 'elf' on his own) but in the sense that each soul is tagged with a specific fate, which can be changed through appeal to a higher power.

By the by, Arwen only actually dies once Aragorn dies. And he dies because he willingly lays down and does so. Arwen goes off and dies in Lothlorien, so the question remains - did her choice impart also to her the aging and death that are natural to humans, or was her death equally voluntary due to her grief?

In which case, it's less "Arwen loves Aragorn and so chooses to become Mortal" as "Arwen marries Aragorn. Aragorn inevitably dies. Arwen dies of grief. Mandos sends her on to be with him becuase to do otherwise would be cruel." Yes, the result is the same, but the mechanics are simpler to understand.

If the spirits of Elves are permanently bound to this world, then it's a lot of unhappy elven souls are wandering around.

Well, wouldn't that explain why the Rohirrim called Aragorn and company 'elvish wights' when they left for the paths of the dead?

[Lefty Scaevola]

and that includes people like Tuor who weren't half blooded. I doubt that Tuor actually got that choice. The passage in which it mentioned is in "and it is said form" of phrase, not a history or other fact phrasing. It reads as if the presumed in story author (Bilbo in his "Traslations for the Elvish" maybe?) consider it to be a fanciful happy ending put on a tale or song. IRCC the materiel mentions that there is no witness tale of Tour's fate come back to Middle Earth.

[Lefty Scaevola]

If the spirits of Elves are permanently bound to this world, then it's a lot of unhappy elven souls are wandering around.Indeed there are, it is specifically mentioned that they are unahppy and damaged souls. It is consider mostly a type of insanity among the evlves for the spirit not to want to be joined again with a body. Re-embodiment is available in Aman.

[caboose007]

right elrond chose to be elven and elros chose to be a man. this would then make their children what they are. therefore arwen is elven and aragorn, being a decendant of elros, is a man. i dont believe that arwen chose to become mortal because she shouldn't have that choice but instead faded away from grief of her dead husband, much like elves died when their hearts were broken.

if she did have that choice then shouldn't aragorn have had it too considering he is also a decendant of earendil and elwing like arwen?

[Valandil]

right elrond chose to be elven and elros chose to be a man. this would then make their children what they are. therefore arwen is elven and aragorn, being a decendant of elros, is a man. i dont believe that arwen chose to become mortal because she shouldn't have that choice but instead faded away from grief of her dead husband, much like elves died when their hearts were broken.

if she did have that choice then shouldn't aragorn have had it too considering he is also a decendant of earendil and elwing like arwen?

But if you read early in Appendix A: "But to the children of Elrond, a choice was also appointed..."