Tolkien Errors and Anachronisms

[Wally]

Although Tolkien was a perfectionist, which is why the LOTR took so long to write, it nonetheless contains some flaws. Is there a thread elsewhere in here that discusses these?

[brownjenkins]

Certainly flaws within his own history, that was constantly changing, though I can't think of any plain anachronisms off the top of my head. Any you noticed?

[Wally]

One that immediately comes to mind is after Frodo and Sam have escaped Cirith Ungol and are beginning their trek inside Mordor. This is the scene where Sam says that if Shagrat were to give him a glass of water, he would shake his hand.

Now Tolkien makes it clear elsewhere that bowls were used for drinking when at table, or mugs when in pub. This, I think, is an error on his part, as I really doubt that glasses were used for drinking in Middle-Earth, and that neither he nor the editors caught it.

[Wally]

Regarding the 'black breath' that nearly killed Eowyn and Merry: why was this indigenous only to the Nazgul and not Sauron himself? I would have expected Isildur to have paid dearly thus for his assault on Sauron's person with his father's sword.

[Olmer]

I can recall the firework's dragon which passed "like an express train". :)

[brownjenkins]

I can recall the firework's dragon which passed "like an express train". :)

Haha, I just checked that, and you are correct. That would be a Class A anachronism. :D

The glass is a good point as well, cup or mug would have been more fitting.

[brownjenkins]

Regarding the 'black breath' that nearly killed Eowyn and Merry: why was this indigenous only to the Nazgul and not Sauron himself? I would have expected Isildur to have paid dearly thus for his assault on Sauron's person with his father's sword.

That's interesting, though I suppose you could say that Nazgul were somewhat like living dead, where as Sauron was not, so they might have properties in and of themselves that were not shared by a maia.

[Wally]

Good job, that; the express train beats out the glass by a wide margin.

There aren't a lot of these, but I think a list of them would be instructive and informative. Not to mention amusing.

There is also some awkward phraseology to be found therein, or maybe just some overeager editing. When Sauron realizes that Frodo is in the cracks of doom, it is said that "he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung". Wouldn't the following make more sense?

"he knew his deadly peril and <how slender was> the thread upon which his doom now hung".

[tolkienfan]

There is also some awkward phraseology to be found therein, or maybe just some overeager editing. When Sauron realizes that Frodo is in the cracks of doom, it is said that "he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung". Wouldn't the following make more sense?

"he knew his deadly peril and <how slender was> the thread upon which his doom now hung".
Well, I would consider a "thread" to be slender in anycase. Interesting topic! :)

[Valandil]

Regarding the 'black breath' that nearly killed Eowyn and Merry: why was this indigenous only to the Nazgul and not Sauron himself? I would have expected Isildur to have paid dearly thus for his assault on Sauron's person with his father's sword.

He did pay dearly - eventually.

But anyway, I think Sauron was pretty incapacitated at the time. He had been "mortally wounded" by the joint assault of Gil-galad and Elendil, both of whom had been slain getting the job done. All Isildur had to do was walk up, pick up what was left of Narsil, bend over to slice off the Ring, and he was done.

'sides, Isildur may have been more able to withstand the "black breath" than either Eowyn or Merry - he was a pretty powerful figure.

[Wally]

But they do bear discussion.

The thread issue is just a matter of opinion, although other authors who have used that phrase since have done so as I had suggested. Reading it in LOTR, it just looks strangely unfinished to me.

Since Aragorn fought the Nazgul on Weathertop, and the Witch-King wounded Frodo there, with neither of them becoming affected by the black breath, one must conclude that one is only so affected when one actually wounds a Nazgul, which neither Aragorn or Frodo did, as opposed to the situation with both Eowyn and Merry. We cannot be sure that Sauron was possessed of the black breath and so maybe Isildur would have thus been unaffected. Personally though, I feel this is just an oversight by Tolkien.

Other ponderables are as follows:

If, as Gandalf said, nearly all mithril that the dwarves had mined in Moria had been given to Sauron by the Orcs, then where did all the mithril come from that was later used to repair the Gates of Minas Tirith?

Twice, Gandalf refers to Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. How is this reconciled with Tom Bombadil's calling himself the 'eldest', which the Elves apparently agreed with?


More to come.....

[Jon S.]

Twice, Gandalf refers to Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. How is this reconciled with Tom Bombadil's calling himself the 'eldest', which the Elves apparently agreed with?

>> Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evident by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning "Ancient" or "Belonging to the distant past"), Men Orald. All these names apparently mean "Eldest." However, Treebeard calls himself the eldest living being of Middle-earth and that he was there before anyone else. However, Tolkien remarked: "Treebeard is a character in my story and even he does not know everything."[citation needed] It is possible, then, that Treebeard's knowledge omits Bombadil. Wikipedia

>> If Tom Bombadil is indeed not a normal being, but rather a supernatural being or "concept" this is not necessarily a contradiction (Treebeard is likely the oldest living being, while Bombadil could be an older supernatural being). answers.com

[The Gaffer]

This is a good idea for a thread, Wally. Welcome back/aboard.

Other things we know about the Black Breath:

- you don't need to wound a Nazgul to be affected by it: e.g. the Houses of Healing for how it affected the Gondor soldiers with the Nazgul being in the air
- it was to do with despair and fear, which is the only explanation I can think of for Aragorn's driving them off with a broken sword and a flaming branch.

Maybe the mithril was recovered from Sauron's hoards. We don't know a lot of details about what Aragorn did after LOTR ended, but we do know that there were plenty of battles fought far afield.

I guess the Ents predate the Elves; don't have a Sil handy so can't confirm it though. For Tom, see numerous threads about who and what he is...

[Jon S.]

The #1 "error" (more an omission) to me is:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've always thought that in Tolkien's attempt to recreate Hobitesse as Merry Olde England, he rather blatantly and abashedly employed a number of more modern conveniences which, when compared with the rest of the world, are quite obviously anachronisms. The reference to a glass of water could be considered subtle enough to have slipped through, but to me, the clocks on the mantel and the express train references are just too obvious to have slipped through.

Also, re: the eagles, I don't buy a couple of the guys arguments:

"At least one writer on r.a.b.t. suggested that Sauron might himself be able to fly. The only place in Tolkien's writings where we see Sauron fly is way back in the First Age, when he changes himself into a bat to fly away from Lúthien (Silmarillion, 212). Whether Sauron could still change into other forms at the end of the Third Age is a subtle question. We know that his powers are greatly reduced over what they previously were, and we also know that he has lost at least some of his shape-shifting ability; i.e. he cannot put on a fair form any longer. My view would be that there is nothing to support the suggestion that Sauron is able to change into a flying form in the late Third Age. If he could, we would expect him to have done so when Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath-Naur. "

Rather, it seems to me that since we know that in the past, Sauron was able to change into a bat or vampiric form and fly, and since such a form I hardly think qualifies as "fair" (whatever Anne Rice may say!), it seems to me that the burden of proof would lie on those claiming that he had lost this power.

Also, he claims that both Frodo's resistance to the Ring and its effect on him change by the passage of time. This seems absurd, since Frodo had the Ring for some I believe thirteen years before he went on his quest, which lasted for basically one winter and part of one fall; it seems unjustifiable to say that the increase of the Ring's effect increased by the passage of time, given this, so that it would be by approach to its birthplace, Orodruin. Consequently, were the Eagles to bear Frodo to Orodruin in the space of an hour, as the article suggests, he clearly would not be able to build up a proper resistance to it.

[Wally]

Thank'ee, Gaffer. It's been a while, allright. For those who may be interested, I have also updated my profile. Come see us!

Everyone raises some good points, and there is ample material for discussion on the more controversial issues. Let us at it.

Another major uh-oh in my opinion is the matter of the One Ring after it was lost but prior to its identification by Gandalf. Tolkien flatly states, through Gandalf, I believe, that Sauron had thought that the Elves had found and destroyed the ring. How could this be, considering the catastrophic effects once it WAS destroyed? Surely Sauron would have known better, but according to Tolkien he did not. This seems to me to be another plot hole by Tolkien that eluded editing.

Re Treebeard and Tom Bombadil, Gandalf states twice that Treebeard is the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. Bombadil merely says he is Eldest, and was there before the first acorn. The Ents were there before the Elves, according to the rhyme told to Theoden, so this is not much help, but either Gandalf or Bombadil is wrong (I say Gandalf is in error since the Wizards all came much later, so how would he know for sure?), unless I am really missing something here. Any opinions or comments?

[The Gaffer]

Hey, give the guy a break. Even Shakespeare had a clock chiming in Julius Caesar...

On the Ring thing, I think there are a few dodgy bits. There seems to be some uncertainty as it were around how many "magic" rings there are, in which Gandalf might have a "professional interest".

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Since Aragorn fought the Nazgul on Weathertop, and the Witch-King wounded Frodo there, with neither of them becoming affected by the black breath, one must conclude that one is only so affected when one actually wounds a Nazgul, which neither Aragorn or Frodo did, as opposed to the situation with both Eowyn and Merry.
Not at all. Perhaps they just ate more onions when the War heated up. ;)

In more seriousness, we really have very little idea what "fueled" the Nazgul, as they say. As Sauron's power builds (and that is more than a "political" statement, so it's not all about treaties, or somesuch) his malice could have continued to strengthen their powers.

If, as Gandalf said, nearly all mithril that the dwarves had mined in Moria had been given to Sauron by the Orcs, then where did all the mithril come from that was later used to repair the Gates of Minas Tirith? Gifts from the Elves, perhaps. Recycling. Discovery of Sauron's stores...he wasn't exactly draping Southrons in it.

Twice, Gandalf refers to Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. How is this reconciled with Tom Bombadil's calling himself the 'eldest', which the Elves apparently agreed with?Maybe Tom isn't "living" according to the same criteria. Maybe "living" is used to apply to something more native to the earth than wandering Maiar or whatever Tom was or maybe he was immortal and therefore not in the discussion.

And even though the riddle Gandalf gives to Theoden says the Ents were before all, Fangorn himself says, "it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness, long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, although our ways have parted, since." So whatever form he had before the elves, he, or Ents in general, didn't speak.

Howdy, Wally. I'm new here. ;)

[Tessar]

About the thread editorial comment:

Your editorial makes sense if the description is pertaining to how Sauron realizes how 'close' Frodo is.

However if the idea is simply to say that Sauron suddenly realizes 'who' the person is that holds his doom, then Tolkien's syntax is still king. :D

[Peter_20]

I always found it fairly unfitting how Gandalf mentioned a "pop gun" in The Hobbit. :D
Were there guns in Arda?

Oh, and why is it that Tolkien uses Spanish and Italian names and expressions?
There's this hobbit named Blanco, and I also recall Merry going "hey presto!".

[Wally]

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.

Hmmm - I missed the pop gun reference, but that is another excellent example of what we were talking about here. Good job.

The other points I am not going to argue about or defend, but it is pretty clear, for example, that Gandalf said that nearly all mithril mined by the dwarves had come into Sauron's possession, leaving very little to none to repair the gates of Minas Tirith. There is no wiggle-room here except for the possibility that someone might have picked through the ruins of Barad-dur to find it. Considering that Aragorn had said that men would not be able to enter Minas Morgul for many years, due to its evil state, it is hard to imagine that anyone would be allowed to pick through the ruins of the Dark Tower, Sauron's own abode. It is possible, of course, but Tolkien gives no hint of such. I believe it to be just another oversight.

I am aware of the controversy surrounding Bombadil and have read numerous of the essays that detail who or what he might be. But Tolkien gave us the answer - he is an enigma - and not Aule the Smith or Illuvatar himself. But he is obviously living and so either he or Gandalf must be wrong, and I think the odds are that it is Gandalf. I look upon this as more of an inconsistency than an error, and maybe there is some deeper explanation, if Gandalf knew more than I am crediting him for.

The same area where I read the Bombadil essays addresses the situation of why the Eagles did not carry Frodo and the Ring to Mount Doom. There it was concluded that Sauron was aware of the possibility and thus had arranged for Fell-Beasts to patrol the skies of Mordor ceaselessly. Myself, I always wondered just why he did not garrison a patrol of Orcs at the Chambers of Fire tp prevent any possibility of a clandestine approach.

Comments and discussion welcomed, but I see that there is already a clamor beginning to close the thread. Sorry if anyone's feelings have been hurt, but Tolkien's work, good as it is, is obviously not perfect.

[Jon S.]

Also, re: the eagles, I don't buy a couple of the guys arguments:

"At least one writer on r.a.b.t. suggested that Sauron might himself be able to fly. The only place in Tolkien's writings where we see Sauron fly is way back in the First Age, when he changes himself into a bat to fly away from Lúthien (Silmarillion, 212). Whether Sauron could still change into other forms at the end of the Third Age is a subtle question. We know that his powers are greatly reduced over what they previously were, and we also know that he has lost at least some of his shape-shifting ability; i.e. he cannot put on a fair form any longer. My view would be that there is nothing to support the suggestion that Sauron is able to change into a flying form in the late Third Age. If he could, we would expect him to have done so when Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath-Naur. "

Rather, it seems to me that since we know that in the past, Sauron was able to change into a bat or vampiric form and fly, and since such a form I hardly think qualifies as "fair" (whatever Anne Rice may say!), it seems to me that the burden of proof would lie on those claiming that he had lost this power.


You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion.

[Jon S.]

the Bombadil essays addresses the situation of why the Eagles did not carry Frodo and the Ring to Mount Doom. There it was concluded that Sauron was aware of the possibility and thus had arranged for Fell-Beasts to patrol the skies of Mordor ceaselessly. Myself, I always wondered just why he did not garrison a patrol of Orcs at the Chambers of Fire tp prevent any possibility of a clandestine approach.
I've never heard of or read this, can you provide a reference, please?

On the latter point, on the one hand, what imbecile would leave his one significant point of vulnerability unguarded during wartime?! On the other hand, anything is possible.

On the former point, see my immediately prior response (considering the Eagles had just flew Gandalf from Orthanc to Rivendell, it strains credulation to explain the failure of anyone at Elrond's Council to even broach the possibility of flying the ring into Mordor as anything but either an oversight or a deliberate omission so as to make the remainder of the story possible).

[Rían]

You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion.The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting. ;)

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice. But Spanish didn't just drop out of the sky, complete and without ancestry. Languages are interconnected, and "coney" is an English word, too - I imagine they both came from Latin.

[GrayMouser]

1) Glass-making is thousands of years old; the Romans commonly used glass beakers.

2) Coney: Etymology: Middle English conies, plural, from Anglo-French conis, plural of conil, from Latin cuniculus

I seem to recall somewhere that Tolkien disliked the word rabbit as being too obviously derived from French.

Of course the Shire in general is anachronous, being a piece of 19th C England dropped into a Dark Age Europe.

[Rían]

Wow - GrayMouser and Wayfarer dropping in! Yay! *waves* :)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting. ;)Spoken like a woman who's been to a few meetings, lol. :D

[Wally]

Jon S.:

I believe it was an essay that I read via a link on the Encyclopedia of Arda, but since there are about 1000 of them in there, I cannot at the moment lay my hands on it. I'll keep looking.

But it was just an essay that addressed this issue, with someone's speculation as to what must have happened. No official Tolkien position, of course.

[Beorndog]

I always thought the Eagle plan wouldn't work because we know that:
A: Sauron can control the weather.
B: Sauron can put up some mighty impressive pyrotechnics. Witness the display at the outset of the Army of Minas Morgul and at his Downfall.

Hence, I thought with his seeing eye Sauron would be albe to spot the Eagle incursion and fire off his "Lightning Bolts" or what ever you want to call them at a speed where they would hit before even the Eagles saw them coming.
Since the Eagles played a large role in the Battle of Five Armies I doubt Sauron would have forgotten them.

[Finrod Felagund]

If, as Gandalf said, nearly all mithril that the dwarves had mined in Moria had been given to Sauron by the Orcs, then where did all the mithril come from that was later used to repair the Gates of Minas Tirith?


With the Balrog gone, it is quite possible that Moria could have been successfully reinhabited in the years following the War of the Ring

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There's this hobbit named Blanco, and I also recall Merry going "hey presto!".

Blanco and presto are clearly translations from some other language, which was to Westron as Spanish is to English. Remember, these are all translations.

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.


"Coney" is also an English word. It's not particularly Spanish.


You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

I don't believe many people knew about the Eagles as an ally. Or, there is always the very real possibility that they could not imagine it would be that simple.

[Jon S.]

I'm unconvinced by anything posted so far about the Eagles. I just reread Gandalf speech to the Council. He tells all about Gwaihir's rescue.

May I remind you folks ...

"It is way too risky for the eagles to carry the Ring into Mordor; Sauron would spot them immediately."

Some individuals assume that Sauron would immediately notice the eagles flying into his realm and would understand the nature of the threat. Under closer examination, it is not so obvious that Sauron would notice the eagles.

How would Sauron identify the threat? One possibility is that he would see the eagles approaching by means of the PalantÃ*r. However, I think it can be strongly argued that the PalantÃ*r would not show the eagles unless Sauron directed the PalantÃ*r to focus on the particular area where they are flying; the PalantÃ*r is not an alarm bell. Further, we know that the flight path charted above is not where his attention was mainly directed:

"...His eye watches that way [the Black Gate] all the time..." (II, 294)

"No, no indeed," said Gollum. "Hobbits must see, must try to understand. He does not expect attack that way [Cirith Ungol]. His eye is all around, but it attends more to some places than to others. He can't see everything at once, not yet. [...] He thinks that no one can come to the Moon-tower without fighting big battle at the bridges, or getting lots of boats which they cannot hide and He will know about." (II, 316)

The Ered Lithui are a chain of mountains 300-400 miles long (roughly the distance between Boston and Washington DC, or between London and Glasgow), and it is considered impossible to enter Mordor by climbing over them; even one as sneaky and as skilled at climbing as Gollum knows of no way into Mordor except thru Cirith Gorgor and Cirith Ungol. For this reason, it is unlikely that Sauron would devote much attention to watching the Ered Lithui or the uninhabited Brown Lands.

There appear to be certain kinds of things which attract Sauron's attention, such as Frodo's gaze when he is seated on Amon Hen and is wearing the Ring. Sauron also is immediately aware when Frodo puts on the Ring in Sammath Naur. As long as Frodo does not put on the Ring during the eagle flight, however, it is not obvious that Sauron's attention would be attracted.

We know that Frodo went on foot all the way thru Mordor from Cirith Ungol to Mt. Doom carrying the Ring without Sauron spotting him; so the mere fact that something is carrying the Ring doesn't mean that Sauron will immediately spot it. The only thing which makes an eagle more visible is the fact that it's flying. However, the eagle has the advantage that there's far less time for Sauron to spot it, while the Ring-carrying Frodo was on foot in Mordor for many days.

It's important to note that once the eagles fly into Mordor, the game is no longer one of stealth but speed. Even if Sauron does immediately notice the eagles, he will not necessarily be able to respond in time. We aren't told exactly how long it took the eagles to fly from the Black Gate to Mt. Doom, but my guess is that it could not have been over an hour, and the flight I propose above is slightly shorter.

After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Gorgor, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnaisance purposes. Thus, even if Sauron notices the eagles, his response would not necessarily be an appropriate one to prevent the Ring from being destroyed (such as having the Nazgûl fly directly to Mt. Doom to intercept the eagles).

"Sauron would send the flying Nazgûl after the eagles."

It is likely that he would. However, there is a very good change that the Nazgûl would not reach the eagles in time to foil the threat.

First, the Nazgûl are almost certainly not always airborne; the flying mounts must rest sometimes. It would presumably take at least a few minutes to take the flying mounts out of their stables, harness them, and get the Nazgûl aloft. We are not told where the flying mounts are stabled (Barad-dûr would be a fair guess), but unless it is very close to Mt. Doom, the Nazgûl have little chance of catching up with the eagles unless they chanced to be aloft already.

Second, the Nazgûl would have to be able to fly faster than the eagles to be able to catch up with them. We are not specifically told whether the eagles are faster than the Nazgûl, but there is at least an oblique suggestion that they are:

"Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your folk who is most swift! For we have need of speed greater than any wind, outmatching the wings of the Nazgûl." (III, 280; emphasis is mine.)

Finally, we know that the eagles are willing to attack the flying Nazgûl, because they do so at the last battle before the Black Gate. An entirely possible series of events would be for some of the eagles to attack the Nazgûl and hold them back long enough to allow the eagle carrying the Ringbearer to reach Mt. Doom.

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

[Jon S.]

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting. ;)
Now this explanation is plausible. :p :D

[The Gaffer]

Well, obviously, the answer to the Eagles conundrum is that it would make a crap story :rolleyes:

But seriously, it would.

At the Council it is discussed whether to send the Ring over the Sea, but that it would be refused because it is a Middle Earth problem which must be dealt with in Middle Earth.

The Eagles don't have a forwarding address. They decide when they want to intervene.

Given those two, it is for the "free peoples" to sort out by themselves.

[Tessar]

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting. ;)

:eek:


Elrond: So, I was saying to her just the other day, "Okay, look sweetheart, I know he's a ranger, and he's hot, and everything, but lets be honest--why give up the undying lands for a man who wouldn't know shampoo if it bit him on his grungy ass?"

Gandalf: SO true.

Pippin: *popping in with a StarElf's carton* Okay, I have a latte, two blacks, one lembas smoothie (light on the whipped cream), and a Caramel Coney Cake. Who gets what?

Elrond: Latte.

Gandalf: Smoothie.

Glorfindel: I have one of the blacks.

Elrond: But back to the topic at hand--the eagles. I just don't know... they are -such- resource guzzlers! Couldn't we just send them in on something more environment friendly? Like a sparrow? *sips*

Gandalf: Don't be rediculous--can you imagine? The Dwarven media would be all over us for that one. I can read the headlines now--"FATE OF MIDDLE-EARTH PUT IN CLAWS OF DOOM" *sip*... *wheeze* *SPLUTTER!* WTF is this?!!?! I said a LEMBAS smoothie!

Pippin: It is a Lembas Smoothie!

Gandalf: FOOL of a Took! I know for a fact this is -not- organic!

[Jon S.]

The Eagles don't have a forwarding address. They decide when they want to intervene.
True on the latter but it reminds me of the old chestnut about the guy who prays, "Please, God, I've never asked you for anything. Just one time, let me win the lottery!" God replies, "Meet me half way, will you - buy a ticket." I.e., someone might have tried asking.

As for the former, I disagree. There are ways of contacting the Eagles. Gandalf and Galadrial likely could have. Radagast, I believe, certainly could have (of course, he'd have to be asked, too).

[The Gaffer]

:D

Dunno about the second part. I can't think of anywhere in the whole kaboodle where Eagles were contacted by people, rather than the other way around.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

:eek:


Elrond: So, I was saying to her just the other day, "Okay, look sweetheart, I know he's a ranger, and he's hot, and everything, but lets be honest--why give up the undying lands for a man who wouldn't know shampoo if it bit him on his grungy ass?"

Gandalf: SO true.

Pippin: *popping in with a StarElf's carton* Okay, I have a latte, two blacks, one lembas smoothie (light on the whipped cream), and a Caramel Coney Cake. Who gets what?

Elrond: Latte.

Gandalf: Smoothie.

Glorfindel: I have one of the blacks.

Elrond: But back to the topic at hand--the eagles. I just don't know... they are -such- resource guzzlers! Couldn't we just send them in on something more environment friendly? Like a sparrow? *sips*

Gandalf: Don't be rediculous--can you imagine? The Dwarven media would be all over us for that one. I can read the headlines now--"FATE OF MIDDLE-EARTH PUT IN CLAWS OF DOOM" *sip*... *wheeze* *SPLUTTER!* WTF is this?!!?! I said a LEMBAS smoothie!

Pippin: It is a Lembas Smoothie!

Gandalf: FOOL of a Took! I know for a fact this is -not- organic!
My favorite post, EVER. :D :D :D

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

:D

Dunno about the second part. I can't think of anywhere in the whole kaboodle where Eagles were contacted by people, rather than the other way around.
Radagast did it. That's how Gandalf escaped from Orthanc.

[Rían]

Great one, Tessar :D :D

[Forkbeard]

The #1 "error" (more an omission) to me is:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

Much as I respect Sean for his Germanic Lexicon work, I have to disagree with him on the eagles as the way to dispose of the ring, much less as a way of transporting a hobbit.

[Forkbeard]

One that immediately comes to mind is after Frodo and Sam have escaped Cirith Ungol and are beginning their trek inside Mordor. This is the scene where Sam says that if Shagrat were to give him a glass of water, he would shake his hand.

Now Tolkien makes it clear elsewhere that bowls were used for drinking when at table, or mugs when in pub. This, I think, is an error on his part, as I really doubt that glasses were used for drinking in Middle-Earth, and that neither he nor the editors caught it.

Well, not really, I'm afraid. The use of the English word "glass" to signify any kind of vessel or receptacle dates to the 13th century, and specifically as a container for drinking liquid to the late 14th. "Mug" doesn't become used in this sense until the 17th century. "Bowl" might be appropriate, but in modern English if Sam had said a "bowl of water" it would convey a somewhat different image to the reader than a "glass of water" does, since a drinking glass is at least in the pre-1950 sense smaller than a bowl. "Flagon" as a receptacle of liquid postdates "glass" in that sense by a century, at least in English. "Flask" likewise in its pre-modern senses would be too large for Shagrat to offer Sam. So I'm not sure that "glass" really counts as anachronism.

[Forkbeard]

I can recall the firework's dragon which passed "like an express train". :)
Good example, but I have to wonder whether it fits the "anachronism" definition. It doesn't say that the "express train" existed in Middle Earth, but rather that the fireworks dragon passed by like one, i. e. something in that world was like something in this world, and as a comparative (a simile, in this case) I'm not sure we can claim it as anachronism.

[Forkbeard]

I always found it fairly unfitting how Gandalf mentioned a "pop gun" in The Hobbit. :D
Were there guns in Arda?

Oh, and why is it that Tolkien uses Spanish and Italian names and expressions?
There's this hobbit named Blanco, and I also recall Merry going "hey presto!".

I don't recall the "presto" thing, but "Blanco" comes from Beowulf, with some adjustment. Hobbit names as Tollers tells us end in -o (hence medieval Froda becomes Frodo); blanc- refers to a white or shining horse in Beowulf and is related to the OE verb blican, to shine.

As for "presto", its Italian in origin, but becomes a common English word in the middle of the 16th century, so has been English too for 5 centuries.

[Forkbeard]

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.

I again don't recall the "hola" reference, but like "presto" this is a word that comes into English in the 16th century, and so is perfectly good English by this time. It is related to words like "hello" and "holler" and "hallow" in the sense of to hail and so on.

Re: coney, this one has an interesting history to me. It comes into Spanish and Old French via Latin, cuniculus, which ANCIENT authorities say was a word that came from the pre-Latin languages of Spain. Anyway, it comes into English via Anglo-French in the 13th century, about the time that rabbits were introduced to England (and the word rabbit doesn't come into English for 2 centuries after that).

It is interesting that Sam knows about coneys. But what is more interesting is that they seem to be a rather late introduction into Northern Europe: none of the Gaelic or Germanic languages have a "native" word for them but borrow a form of "cuniculus". ANd it is Ithilien, in the south, that we encounter our coneys, not in the north. It is interesting too that the narrator uses the term "rabbits", but Sam the character uses "coney". Anyway, I'm not sure why this is unworthy of Tolkien.

[Forkbeard]

You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion.
True, but then one must ask whether the eagles indeed would have taken part at all and whether all there knew it.

[Forkbeard]

I've never heard of or read this, can you provide a reference, please?

On the latter point, on the one hand, what imbecile would leave his one significant point of vulnerability unguarded during wartime?! On the other hand, anything is possible.

On the former point, see my immediately prior response (considering the Eagles had just flew Gandalf from Orthanc to Rivendell, it strains credulation to explain the failure of anyone at Elrond's Council to even broach the possibility of flying the ring into Mordor as anything but either an oversight or a deliberate omission so as to make the remainder of the story possible).

First, you have to conceive of it as a point of vulnerability. Sauron obviously thought Mordor unassailable.

Second, when you're faced with an army at your doorstep, it seems silly to have a unit in a place where should the army on the doorstep break through, and win, having a unit at the Cracks of Doom is simply a waste of orcpower.

[Forkbeard]

I don't believe many people knew about the Eagles as an ally. Or, there is always the very real possibility that they could not imagine it would be that simple.

I'm not sure we can call them "allies" in the usual sense. They are sort of above all that. Note that when we see them, we see them confabbing with the Istari: Gandalf specifically. We see only two instances of them with "elves": Elrond's sons evidently sought news of them and Galadriel had Gwahir search for Gandalf.

They seem to me to be rather "above" it all in LoTR in a way they aren't in The Hobbit.

[Tessar]

Whoa! Forkbeard! o.O

Next time you want to quote a bunch of posts, it's usually easier and better if you just cut/paste the quotes into a text editor, and turn it all into one post rather than make ten different ones.

[Finrod Felagund]

I'm not sure we can call them "allies" in the usual sense. They are sort of above all that. Note that when we see them, we see them confabbing with the Istari: Gandalf specifically. We see only two instances of them with "elves": Elrond's sons evidently sought news of them and Galadriel had Gwahir search for Gandalf.

They seem to me to be rather "above" it all in LoTR in a way they aren't in The Hobbit.

Eve in the Hobbit, all the eagles did to help was not for the sake of their so-called Allies, but for the sake of their hatred of the orcs. The initial rescue of the party of 14 fom the trees was a lucky coincidence.

[GrayMouser]

"How The Lord of the Rings Should have Ended."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-aKSiPibo
YouTube - Lord of the rings (the short version)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Eve in the Hobbit, all the eagles did to help was not for the sake of their so-called Allies, but for the sake of their hatred of the orcs. The initial rescue of the party of 14 fom the trees was a lucky coincidence.I'm not sure about that. The Lord of the Eagles had a political position, too. He knew who Gandalf was, and probably what, at least, the Hobbits were. He was going to be fighting Evil, anyway, might as well develop some support during "the age of Men".

[Jon S.]

First, you have to conceive of it as a point of vulnerability. Sauron obviously thought Mordor unassailable.

Second, when you're faced with an army at your doorstep, it seems silly to have a unit in a place where should the army on the doorstep break through, and win, having a unit at the Cracks of Doom is simply a waste of orcpower.
While it is true hindsight is always 20-20, in retrospect, what was sillier of Sauron, to have had a small guard posted 24/7 to protect his one true area of vulnerability from a stealth infiltration that a huge army couldn't necessarily see or stop -or- not "waste" the orcpower.

Next thing I know you'll tell me Smaug would have been silly to have filled that tiny little unprotected hole in his otherwise jewel-encrusted underside! ;)

[Forkbeard]

While it is true hindsight is always 20-20, in retrospect, what was sillier of Sauron, to have had a small guard posted 24/7 to protect his one true area of vulnerability from a stealth infiltration that a huge army couldn't necessarily see or stop -or- not "waste" the orcpower.

Indeed, and so one has to STOP using hindsight in order to assess the situation correctly. As pointed out, Sauron didn't see it as a vulnerability. His "ofermod" didn't consider the possibility that they would try and actually destroy the Ring. Ergo, why guard something unnecessary to guard, particularly when faced with an armed invasion at his gates?

Next thing I know you'll tell me Smaug would have been silly to have filled that tiny little unprotected hole in his otherwise jewel-encrusted underside! ;)
Which he again has to be aware of as a "chink" in his armor in order to fill.

[Jon S.]

You're making my points for me, Fork. Just as the U.S. government could have prevented 9-11 because the clues were there but we missed 'em, so Sauron and Smaug, had they done their homework, would have assessed and ascertained their own vulnerabilities or, better yet, assembled a Council of sorts and sought out the larger view.

Without SHOUTING to emphasize my point, let me just add that life is full of circumstances where the victimized or defeated person says afterwards (if he's alive to say it), "I just never imagined my opponent would do that." In fact, the best military commanders do exactly the opposite - they try to imagine their opponents doing the unthinkable specifically because they know that's what the best opponents do.

Sauron had one experience with this. When he captured and tortured Gollum, he learned things about the Ring, where it had gone, and who currently had it that he also probably never imagined. You would have thought the doofus would have then ordered his minions to capture a few elves and men and question them, too.

In the end, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't think the men of Minas Tirith expected an attack on the withered White Tree any more than Sauron expected a visit to Mount Doom yet the former posted a continuous guard. That's the normal response. Sauron's leaving Mount Doom completely vulnerable was abnormal. I won't call it an error or anachronism on Tolkien's part per se but it is a strange part of the tale.

[Beorndog]

Sauron knew it was impossible for any Man,Dwarf or Elf to throw the Ring in the Cracks of Doom. Only a Hobbit (which Sauron did not understand) could have resisted the temptation long enough to get it so far and in the end Frodo sucumbed and only the intervention of Gollum allowed the Quest to be succesfully completed.

[Jon S.]

[T]he best military commanders do exactly the opposite - they try to imagine their opponents doing the unthinkable specifically because they know that's what the best opponents do.
I really am embarrassed to be quoting myself. ;)

[Forkbeard]

You're making my points for me, Fork. Just as the U.S. government could have prevented 9-11 because the clues were there but we missed 'em, so Sauron and Smaug, had they done their homework, would have assessed and ascertained their own vulnerabilities or, better yet, assembled a Council of sorts and sought out the larger view.

Not really, Jon. Why would Sauron consider the heart of his realm a vulnerable spot? Even if they came to destroy the Ring, all entrances to his realm were well guarded. Sam, Frodo, and Gollum did not get by unmarked and unnoticied. Were it not for eucatastrophe, that no one could have foreseen, they would have been captured and that would be the end of it. No one could foresee Gollum's aid. No one could foresee the "battle" at Cirith Ungol that allowed Sam to rescue Frodo. No one could foresee the trackers failure at the very cusp of success. Further, who could resist the pull of the Ring and actually throw it in? NOt even Frodo who got so far could, and only by the accident of Gollum falling into the lava was the Ring lost and Sauron overthrown, an accident that it is doubtful a troop of orcs could have prevented.

Without SHOUTING to emphasize my point, let me just add that life is full of circumstances where the victimized or defeated person says afterwards (if he's alive to say it), "I just never imagined my opponent would do that." In fact, the best military commanders do exactly the opposite - they try to imagine their opponents doing the unthinkable specifically because they know that's what the best opponents do.;
The operative word there is "try". Sauron did have it all figured out. Every path into Mordor was guarded at multiple points. Not even a spy got in without being noticed.

Sauron had one experience with this. When he captured and tortured Gollum, he learned things about the Ring, where it had gone, and who currently had it that he also probably never imagined. You would have thought the doofus would have then ordered his minions to capture a few elves and men and question them, too.
And just where is he going to capture a few elves? Walk up to Thranduil's gates and ask for a couple to be handed over? And just what men would know anything?

In the end, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't think the men of Minas Tirith expected an attack on the withered White Tree any more than Sauron expected a visit to Mount Doom yet the former posted a continuous guard.

Um, no they didn't. There was the Guard of the Citadel, who guarded Denethor's seat like any military headquarters, and standing guard at the doors of the Citadel meant standing guard in the courtyard where the White Tree stood. But the guard was not on the White Tree. Likewise, while we aren't told, I think we can be certain that Baradur as Sauron's headquarters had guard at its doors as well. But that hardly indicates that an attack was expected imminently at either place or that a weakness was there. It indicates something about the nature of headquarters in military organizations. The Cracks of Doom isn't headquarters.
That's the normal response. Sauron's leaving Mount Doom completely vulnerable was abnormal. I won't call it an error or anachronism on Tolkien's part per se but it is a strange part of the tale.[/QUOTE]

[Forkbeard]

I really am embarrassed to be quoting myself. ;)
You should be, since you're in error.

[Jon S.]

I have nothing more to add, the last word is yours.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I have nothing more to add, the last word is yours.
Not the last word. :rolleyes:
This is exhaustively discussed in the book. Not everything is, but this is.
"Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire,desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning." the council of Elrond
"All is vain, you say, if he has the Ring. Why should he think it not vain to assail us, if we have it?" "He is not yet sure, " said Gandalf, "and he has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies are secure, as we have done. Also, we could not learn how to wield the full power all in a day. Indeed it can be used only by one master alone, not by many; and he will look for a time of strife, ere one of the great among us makes himself master and puts down the others." the last debate
Traditional fairy tales often have a motif of one vulnerable spot on an otherwise immortal foe. The Mistletoe was Baldur's, the spot on the heel was Achilles', and I'm not sure of the origin of that "place my life in an object or finger bone and hide it" business, but there are enough such tales of vulnerability that the "purloined letter" approach isn't too far-fetched.

It's Sauron's hubris that gets him. He thinks are beings are so "made in his image" that he just can't conceive they would sacrifice themselves and their material progress for a "greater good."

[ecthelion]

Anyone here plays Warcraft\Empire Earth\etc.?
When you guard all the perimeter of your base, do you also guard every critical building inside? :thoughtful:

BTW, I really need some more smileys for my personal moods.. I know there was a thread about it, but it's not so easy to use.

[Jon S.]

It's Sauron's hubris that gets him. He thinks are beings are so "made in his image" that he just can't conceive they would sacrifice themselves and their material progress for a "greater good."
Actually, it's way more than this which is what I've been trying repeatedly to get across. :rolleyes:

Sauron's hubris, as you put it, was not merely that he couldn't conceive of others destroying the ring under the circumstances. If that was it, I'd have stopped posting long ago here.

It was rather that he made no serious effort we know of to seek input from others whose conceptions may have differed from his own for him to then turn down, as generals do.

Or perhaps he did. The best we can say is that Tolkien didn't tell us anything in that direction.

One day, I'd love to see some fan fiction written from [I]Sauron's POV. Maybe it would go something like this ...

Sauron: Listen up, orcs, trolls, fell beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul mounts, wargs, and evil men that have come over to my side (BWA-HA-HA!). I called you together today for this Council of Sauron to inform you of my latest orders in connection with my plan for total ME domination! You agree, don't you, that my plans are perfect and unassailable?

Orcs: You rule, Sauron, they're perfect!

Trolls, Fell Beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul Mounts, and Wargs: Major +1s!

One of the Evil Men: Uh, Sauron - I hate to say this but listen, I wasn't always evil, once I actually was [shudder!] good and because of that, I can conceive of some of what the "good guys" think in these situations. I know this is going to totally blow your mind but ... seriously ... they have some dudes over there on the other side of the river that would actually destroy your ring before letting you get it or even using it themselves. At least send out some more of your spies ...

Sauron: Shut the f- up you a-hole. Nobody thinks of anything I don't think of first. [To his guards] Throw that sorry excuse of a man down the well and absolutely continue to leave Mount Doom completely and utterly unguarded. Next on the agenda: where are those reports I ordered on our Haradrim recruiting efforts?

:D

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Actually, it's way more than this which is what I've been trying repeatedly to get across. :rolleyes:

Sauron's hubris, as you put it, was not merely that he couldn't conceive of others destroying the ring under the circumstances. If that was it, I'd have stopped posting long ago here.

It was rather that he made no serious effort we know of to seek input from others whose conceptions may have differed from his own for him to then turn down, as generals do.

Or perhaps he did. The best we can say is that Tolkien didn't tell us anything in that direction.

One day, I'd love to see some fan fiction written from [I]Sauron's POV. Maybe it would go something like this ...

Sauron: Listen up, orcs, trolls, fell beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul mounts, wargs, and evil men that have come over to my side (BWA-HA-HA!). I called you together today for this Council of Sauron to inform you of my latest orders in connection with my plan for total ME domination! You agree, don't you, that my plans are perfect and unassailable?

Orcs: You rule, Sauron, they're perfect!

Trolls, Fell Beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul Mounts, and Wargs: Major +1s!

One of the Evil Men: Uh, Sauron - I hate to say this but listen, I wasn't always evil, once I actually was [shudder!] good and because of that, I can conceive of some of what the "good guys" think in these situations. I know this is going to totally blow your mind but ... seriously ... they have some dudes over there on the other side of the river that would actually destroy your ring before letting you get it or even using it themselves. At least send out some more of your spies ...

Sauron: Shut the f- up you a-hole. Nobody thinks of anything I don't think of first. [To his guards] Throw that sorry excuse of a man down the well and absolutely continue to leave Mount Doom completely and utterly unguarded. Next on the agenda: where are those reports I ordered on our Haradrim recruiting efforts?

:DSorry, Jon, my rolleyes was at myself, for not being able to let a topic go. :D No offense intended.

Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.

[Forkbeard]

Sorry, Jon, my rolleyes was at myself, for not being able to let a topic go. :D No offense intended.

Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.

Jon is trying to introduce a modern concept and procedure into Middle Earth.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Jon is trying to introduce a modern concept and procedure into Middle Earth.
Rule by committee. :D I'm sure it was all the rage under the Caesars, and Alexander the Great.

"He (and his fact finding team) bestrides the Narrow world like a Colossus"

Doesn't have the same ring (if you'll pardon the pun.) :D

[Jon S.]

Jon is trying to introduce a modern concept and procedure into Middle Earth.
A fair observation but, in that case, so did Elrond when he pulled together his Council and asked essentially, "All right, friends and acquaintances - whadda we gonna do now?!" We could also cite Manwe the Valar of seeking counsel in this manner. And even Sauron, Tolkien wrote, relied heavily on spies to gather info. he would otherwise have been unaware of, isn't that true and an express admission by the Big Evildoer that he didn't know everything?!

Look, don't take my comments as a criticism of Tolkien. Don't even take it as an anachronism or literal error. Take it as an observation that, for one guy at least, Sauron did (or didn't do) things that a 10 year old would have thought of doing.

P.S. And I apologize for lying earlier (it wasn't my last comment :o ).

P.P.S. Where's Olmer when you need him - I'm waiting for his latest theory that Gandalf and Elrond knowingly lied when they told the others that destroying the ring wasn't something Sauron could conceive of anyone doing so they could cut their own side deal. :eek: :p

[Rían]

Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.LOL! :D

[Forkbeard]

A fair observation but, in that case, so did Elrond when he pulled together his Council and asked essentially, "All right, friends and acquaintances - whadda we gonna do now?!"

I would say this is a rather significant misreading of the Council of Elrond. First, unlike Sauron, Elrond isn't commanding large armies nor is he demanding troops from "treaty partners." These beings for reasons of their own have all come to him for advice and seeking answers. Elrond then calls a counsel to discuss and decide on a matter that concerns all the free peoples of Middle Earth who have representatives who have "by chance" come to him at the propitious moment. So we're already attempting to compare disparate things.
Sauron comannds his forces as a tyrant, Elrond seeks the counsel about a non-military matter concerning all of them from peers of various peoples who live in Middle Earth.

Second, Elrond and Gandalf both know what conclusion they want to come too: destroy the Ring, the question to be decided is how that is to be achieved. They really aren't seeking different perspectives, but rather attempting to impart wisdom.

We could also cite Manwe the Valar of seeking counsel in this manner.
I would say that like above, this isn't really the same thing as what you propose for Sauron.

And even Sauron, Tolkien wrote, relied heavily on spies to gather info. he would otherwise have been unaware of, isn't that true and an express admission by the Big Evildoer that he didn't know everything?!
Who claimed he knew everything? He isn't seeking the spy's opinions, but information. Hardly the same thing.

Look, don't take my comments as a criticism of Tolkien. Don't even take it as an anachronism or literal error. Take it as an observation that, for one guy at least, Sauron did (or didn't do) things that a 10 year old would have thought of doing.
I don't take your comments as a criticism of Tolkien. I do take them as an anacrhonism on the part of one reader who wants a character to act like a modern commander rather than a pre-modern tyrant. I also seriously doubt that any but the most precocious 10 year old would have thought it, especially when we see a) that Sauron wasn't vulnerable there EXCEPT when there is "luck" and eucatastrophe (divine fingers from outside the story) involved and b) even modern countries and modern armies don't do what you say they should (there are very few bases on the Mississippi River in the US for example, much less headquartered or scheduled fly overs of NYC--key, vulnerable spots.)

[Jon S.]

Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll). You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.

Your other examples are inappropos. The U.S. had a satellite system in place and other intelligence at hand plus a missle array at the Pentagon itself but we missed or misread what they told us and so the World Trade Center and Pentagon weren't protected. Sauron didn't even take a step to post reconnaisance at or around Mount Doom.

Forkbeard, we'll have to agree to disagree. Peace.

[Forkbeard]

No, you're wrong.

No, I'm right.

Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll).
Exactly, every base and depot, but not every vulnerable spot. The Cracks of Doom were neither a base, nor a depot, and so the comparison you are making is a false one.

You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.
Hey, quit anticipating my response! ;) It was a true point of vulnerability only because of eucatastrophe. Remember that Frodo and Sam did NOT make it into Mordor uncaptured and undetected. In normal terms, Mount Doom wasn't a point of vulnerability to be guarded anymore than constant convoys patrol I-90 or I-80 or I-5, all major corridors and vulnerable.



Forkbeard, you and I just disagree.[/QUOTE]

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll). You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.

Your other examples are inappropos. The U.S. had a satellite system in place and other intelligence at hand plus a missle array at the Pentagon itself but we missed or misread what they told us and so the World Trade Center and Pentagon weren't protected. Sauron didn't even take a step to post reconnaisance at or around Mount Doom.
Jon, aren't you looking in the wrong direction? You might equally criticize Sauron for failing to lock down the Shire when he found out the ring was there. For not collecting the shards of Narsil? For letting the heir of Gondor survive? (for untold generations) For underestimating the security risk posed by Saruman. There are dozens of things he might have done (in the ages he was rebuilding) that would have sealed the opportunities much more finally than mounting a detail on the cracks of doom.

This is the way the story went, but there are many choices that MIGHT have been the critical one.

[Jon S.]

No, I'm right.
Whatever. Now let's return to the issue.

Mount Doom wasn't a point of vulnerability to be guarded anymore than constant convoys patrol I-90 or I-80 or I-5, all major corridors and vulnerable.
This argument is best left to speak for itself.

[Jon S.]

Jon, aren't you looking in the wrong direction? You might equally criticize Sauron for failing to lock down the Shire when he found out the ring was there. For not collecting the shards of Narsil? For letting the heir of Gondor survive? (for untold generations) For underestimating the security risk posed by Saruman. There are dozens of things he might have done (in the ages he was rebuilding) that would have sealed the opportunities much more finally than mounting a detail on the cracks of doom.

This is the way the story went, but there are many choices that MIGHT have been the critical one.
True and fair. I can only respond that the failure to address additional vulnerabilities in far away lands doesn't (and didn't!) negate the failure to secure the site within one's direct control.

[Jon S.]

P.S. If nothing else, at least we now have some regular posting happening here for a couple of days. ;)

[Wally]

Sorry - been away for a bit.

To answer someone's question, 'hola' was said by Shagrat to Gorbag immediately following Sam's battle with Shelob, just before the Orcs find Frodo. 'Hola' is uniquely Spanish, and I had tied that in with the 'coney' reference, wondering if that was some Tolkien wordplay or subtle jest. There have since been many comments on etymology, Latin derivatives, etc., but it is unclear to me just what any of that has to do with a fictional Middle-Earth and languages that Tolkien invented on his own.

Tolkien himself says that Sauron became "aware of the magnitude of his own folly" in leaving Mount Doom unguarded. This would have taken only a few Orcs out of thousands, and I think a much better plot device would have been for there to have been such a guard in place, which Frodo and Sam were going to have to deal with somehow, but instead they find that Gollum had managed to strangle them prior to their arrival at the Chambers of Fire. This, of course, being necessary to prevent loss of the Ring to the Orcs at the very end.

In the spirit of the arguments preceding, one could very well ask just why there was such a considerable guard of Orcs at Cirith Ungol if Shelob had it so well guarded on her own. My opinion is that if such as guard had been provided in the one location, it should have been provided at the other. This is, IMHO, another Tolkien plot-hole.

[Olmer]

Lets start with: Gandalf knows about Saurons as much as Sauron knows about Gandalfs.
So, the discussion about Sauron’s irrationality in conducting his business is strictly based on Gandalf’s hearsay, an educated guess, at best.
To give the advises on farther actions considering the salvation of ME, you need to know the strategy of your opponent.Where Gandalf has got an information of what Sauron thinks and what Sauron's plans, that he can proclaim it with such unshakable aplomb? His best spies, the eagles, could tell him about some movements of the enemy’s army, but not about what Sauron thought or said.
I think, that such assurance could come from a personal contact, in a manner of some kind of parley with Sauron, where both sides have discussed plans considering the Ring, and came to some mutual agreement: Sauron was also interested in the destruction of the Ring.
Then all his seems to be unreasonable misconducts could be easily explained by his cooperation in accordance with the joint plan. :evil:

To Jon S. How could I let down of your optimistic expectations! :p :D

[The Gaffer]

I don't think there was a significant guard at Cirith Ungol. The fact that they were a crack suicide patrol seems like more of a plot hole :)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Cirith Ungol is more reflective of Orc management style than of Sauron's plotting. Shelob served the same function for that guardhouse as Gollum did for the Goblins in the Hobbit. You could send a somewhat troublesome or politically suspect underling down there on an errand. If he made it back, he'd have had a live ammo training exercise. If he didn't, you had his stuff. Meanwhile, it was a pretty painless way to remind people they wanted to stay on your good side, such as it was. ;)

[Forkbeard]

Sorry - been away for a bit.

To answer someone's question, 'hola' was said by Shagrat to Gorbag immediately following Sam's battle with Shelob, just before the Orcs find Frodo. 'Hola' is uniquely Spanish, and I had tied that in with the 'coney' reference, wondering if that was some Tolkien wordplay or subtle jest. There have since been many comments on etymology, Latin derivatives, etc., but it is unclear to me just what any of that has to do with a fictional Middle-Earth and languages that Tolkien invented on his own.

Tolkien didn't write LoTR in Quenya or Sindarin or Black Speech, he wrote it in English. Yes, we have words and phrases from those invented languages in the novel, but nonetheless the main language is English. "Hola" is an English word, has been for 5 centuries. Might as well say that "quest" or "moutains" or "forest" are anachronisms since they were borrowed from other languages into English centuries ago too. But coney, hola, etc are not "uniquely" Spanish and have long been part of the English language, the language Tolkien wrote in.

Tolkien himself says that Sauron became "aware of the magnitude of his own folly" in leaving Mount Doom unguarded.

No he doesn't. He isn't speaking in those lines of having Mt Doom unguarded, but rather the strategem that Gandalf and Elrond hatched and Aragorn aided in keeping Sauron's attention on them and on war and not on a lonely hobbit doggedly dragging the Ring to its point of origin.

This would have taken only a few Orcs out of thousands, and I think a much better plot device would have been for there to have been such a guard in place, which Frodo and Sam were going to have to deal with somehow, but instead they find that Gollum had managed to strangle them prior to their arrival at the Chambers of Fire. This, of course, being necessary to prevent loss of the Ring to the Orcs at the very end.
SO if you don't like the way Tolkien wrote it, why read it and comment on it? On what grounds is this a "better plot device" much less a "much better" than what is written in the text?

In the spirit of the arguments preceding, one could very well ask just why there was such a considerable guard of Orcs at Cirith Ungol if Shelob had it so well guarded on her own. My opinion is that if such as guard had been provided in the one location, it should have been provided at the other. This is, IMHO, another Tolkien plot-hole.

Shelob was a free agent, there was no guarantee that she would stop everyone going through. MOre importantly, the Tower of Cirith Ungol was situated to guard BOTH the upper entrances to Shelob and the pass and road leading into Mordor at that point AND the road going down to Minas Morgul. Further, like the Teeth, it is the ENTRANCE to the land of Mordor and hardly on the same level as Mt. Doom. Guarding an entrance to the palace hardly means that the parlor needs a guard too.